Report 1377

Report #1377
Skillset: Wildewood Skill: Treehug
 Org: Hartstone Status: Completed Aug 2015
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1 + chance -wood elevation shifts to require but not consume bal/EQ.
Problem: Treehug is the only reagent-costing woodchem special attack that does
not use the skillset's created weapon. This uniquely limits it in ways the other
woodchem special attacks are not. Not using the Garland means that any runes or
motes attached to the garland are not triggered by treehug, and that treehug is
the only such attack that has no ranged component. Paired with the abysmal
damage typing, these shortcomings make treehug a skill that is rarely - if ever
- used. These solutions are meant to address different parts of this skill,
compensating for a lack of range and power by introducing mechanics unique to
the woodchem archetype. They are not exclusive.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Cause any motes or runes on the Wildewood's garland
 to fire when treehugging.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Allow treehugging targets on a different (Above
 ground) elevation than the user. If the attack is
 successful, the victim is pulled to the same
 elevation as the user.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Allow treehugging on a target in an adjacent room.
 This attack does no damage and does not spawn any
 afflictions on the target if successful, but it does
 bring them into the Wildewood's room. May be
 resisted, only blocked by solid physical walls and
 shields.
Player Comments:
---[Elanorwen on 8/13 @ 15:49 writes]:
Solution 1 should have been implemented all the way back when Wildewood
originally came out. Definitely supported. Solution 3 gives them a nice utility
that counters the fact that they lack the ability to use their attack at range
like the other organizations' chemwoods do. I'd add the caveat that it should be
subject to the same restrictions as ninjakari ninukhi. Supported.
---[Allehnon on 8/13 @ 16:05 writes]:
Supported for all solutions
---[Shuyin on 8/14 @ 01:07 writes]:
Solution 1 and 2 only. Solution 3 is unneeded without additional caveats
---[Synkarin on 8/14 @ 02:55 writes]:
Is solution 2 intended to work for ground, trees and flying? Solution 3 is too
strong considering you already have the slow-leave effect from spores (as all
chemwoods do). Solution 1 is fine, and solution 2 should be fine really. No to
solution 3.
---[Synkarin on 8/14 @ 03:00 writes]:
Sorry, I meant Flurry, not spores for the move-delay skill.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 13:42 writes]:
All organizations have access to chemwood slowing (as you mentioned) in addition
to more (usable) pulls than Serenwilde has access to. The exceptions are
Hallifax with convoke only, and Glomdoring who has other options to compensate -
notably bonds to negate most other nation's pulls. As far as I am aware, the
flurry-type slowing effects also only take effect once the passive effects have
fired at least once against the focused target, making it a poor substitution to
(say) Ninjakari's caltrops/chainyank combo, which takes immediate effect with no
cost and minimal setup.
---[Lerad on 8/14 @ 13:53 writes]:
I'm undecided. The logic doesn't quite flow that a lack of range and lacklustre
damage leads to getting a Ninukhi clone to Wildewoods. The solution should be to
give them the range and damage that they don't have sufficient of. Addressing
how much harder it is to use wisp versus the city beckons/pulls is a better way
of addressing any imbalance on that front. However, innovative solutions are a
good idea - I'm just not sure if beckons/pulls are the best way to go about it,
given their role in group combat. Solution 1 is definitely supported, and
solution 2 is interesting as a geyser/swoop spell that does damage.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 13:53 writes]:
It looks like I was wrong about the timing of the flurry effects, it was
probably a bug that was later fixed. The point still stands about it being a
combination that is already easily available. What other caveats do you think
appropriate @Shuyin?
---[Elanorwen on 8/14 @ 19:04 writes]:
@Lerad - I'm assuming the concept is that it isn't matching up with what
wildewoods actually do when they treehug, i.e. grab someone in their branches
and pull them in for a crushing hug against the trunk, something that cannot be
accomplished feasibly at range. Pulling the target in, but without the added
benefit of damage + broken limb shouldn't be too big an issue, especially under
the same constraints as ninukhi, those being stopped by block/summon
resist/walls/etc.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:49 writes]:
That's right. How would we just 'give [Wildewoods] the range and damage that
they don't have'? It doesn't make a lot of sense to handle it in many other
ways, a limited effect that pulls opponents towards the Wildewood in some way
makes the most sense.
---[Enyalida on 8/14 @ 20:51 writes]:
I missed block, and am kind of ambivalent about it stopping this pull. Is
ninukhi really stopped by blocking in that direction? If so, that's fine, I
guess. It would also have the regular pull caveat that trying to use it on an
invalid target throws the user (briefly) off balance, so that you can't spam it.
---[Shuyin on 8/15 @ 01:16 writes]:
Chainyank isn't stopped by block but it -is- stopped by being offbalance. A
skill that doesn't block and being offbalance is too much. Especially if it's
instant (which this ability appears to be).
---[Viynain on 8/16 @ 19:30 writes]:
Solution 1 and 2 with an additional suggestion of strengthening TREELIMB SPRAY
<target> <direction> to be equivalent in strength to a TreeHug once the TreeHug
skill is learned. This addresses the shortcoming that Wildewood is the only
woodchem spec that doesn't use their weapon (and therefore, any fused
motes/runes) on ranged attacks that has been outlined in the Problem. No to
solution 3 as I don't believe there's a need to give a chainyank clone to
Serenwilde that has the same amount of room-pulls as anyone from Gaudiguch or
Hallifax.
---[Enyalida on 8/16 @ 23:40 writes]:
Treehug is not any stronger than treelimb spraying. In fact, in many situations
it will be a weaker attack because of the asphyx typing and breathing.
Serenwilde does not functionally have the same amount of useable room-pulls as
Gaudiguch. Feathered throat sing is a dramatically improved 'clone' of wisp,
that actually has a chance to work where wisping requires pushing a dryad into
the next room and hoping it survives the entire duration. You're also leaving
out empress once combat has engaged, which is a massively useful way to pull
tumbling enemies back into the fray.
---[Synkarin on 8/17 @ 14:35 writes]:
I'm confused, can aero-chems use convoke? I have no issue with groups being able
to synergize and work together to accomplish goals, but I'm against putting this
skill in with a guild who already has move-delay skill in it. In groups, two
people have to work together to pull someone back in, where you're asking for
one person to be able to do it. The move-delay gives you a chance to be back on
balance to then pull the target back in when they move, and then it keeps them
in that room for a time being after the fact. That's too much synergy and there
hasn't really been any justification as to why this specific mechanic is
actually needed. I don't have any issue having runes/motes fire on treehug, and
I think the elevation change is ok too. I think the chainyank clone is entirely
too much.
---[Enyalida on 8/17 @ 17:36 writes]:
There are already pulling skills with guilds with movement delays in-guild. For
instance, the Ninjakari have one. Illuminati have one. Celestines and Nihilists
have one. There is indeed synergy there, and it's intended for a guild and
archetype that has very little synergy as is. This specific mechanic isn't
absolutely the only possible suggestion, but it is an interesting mechanic that
at once solves several problems and fills holes in the guild and org while
maintaining the attack's theme and concept. As mentioned, just letting treehug
work at LoS range is not consistent with this skill's concept, and as it
literally involves pulling targets in ("... wraps her branches about you and
smashes you against her great trunk in a tight hug...") a pulling-in skill
seemed appropriate. If accepted, it will be no more powerful than several other
similar skill combinations, including the Ninjakari chain yank caltrops
combination (which is an exact parallel) or any number of rubble combined pulls.
---[Siam on 8/17 @ 18:44 writes]:
Sol. 1 only
---[Celina on 8/18 @ 01:12 writes]:
Solution 1 only. Solutions 1 and 2 don't really address any proposed problems.
I'm all for an equitable summon for communes but I don't know if chainyank,
which is in and of itself wildly OP, is the way to go. To me that's going in the
wrong direction. I'd prefer to see summon skills nerfed rather than handed out
to everyone.
---[Shuyin on 8/18 @ 01:32 writes]:
FYI - feathered throat sing can be resisted at -both- initiation and completion
(with at least 5s delay), giving messages to both and does not beat
block/shield/prone/offbalance. It's pretty useless in practicality. At least
dryads usually succeed if you get it to go through all the way.
---[Synkarin on 8/18 @ 18:19 writes]:
Chainyank/caltrops isn't an exact parallel. 1) Caltrops isn't a passive skill
that you set and forget 2) Chainyank has stipulations that you haven't applied
to treehug here. Your other 'comparables' are also different. Rubble outside of
geomancy has stipulations for use, beckon has other effective stoppages etc.
You're asking for a super powerful pull that's stopped by very little combined
with set and forget move-delay skill. Simply too much.
---[Enyalida on 8/18 @ 19:47 writes]:
I though that the problem that solution 2 was aimed at was common knowledge,
that -wood archetypes suffer a disadvantage when fighting targets in forested
terrain. Their enemy can climb up and down balance free while it takes 1.5+
seconds for the -wood to change elevation. Having an in-class ability to
mitigate this penalty (geyser like) is helpful. It's not intended to necessarily
work on flying elevation, no.
---[Siam on 8/21 @ 13:28 writes]:
Re: above: Will perspective changing for woods be too much? If that doesn't
work, perhaps we can change it such that when wood effects are up, they hinder
climbing into the trees(1s delay).
---[Siam on 8/21 @ 13:29 writes]:
Ugh. type. Will changing perspective changing to require but not take balance
for woods be too much*
---[Viynain on 8/22 @ 00:11 writes]:
I'd support just altogether requiring but not consuming balance or EQ to shift
perspectives for -wood archetypes. I can see this being very much of a
disadvantage, but I don't see any other reason to expand upon this solution.