Report 312

Report #312
Skillset: Night Skill: Brumetower
 Org: Hartstone Status: Rejected Jan 2010
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Problem: Brumetower is an ability which costs no shadows aside from intially
dropping shadows in a room and no power, and blocks almost all forms movement
into tree and sky elevation, 100% of the time. The issue arises from that it
can cripple druid offense by blocking use of Treebane, and more importantly Sap
with no drawbacks to the Night and with no set-up besides dropping shadows.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Allow raise cudgel to still work through through
 brumetower, allowing druids a way to get themselves
 and a target into the trees.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Change Brumetower to be like other blocking abilities
 and give it a percent chance of success. Possibly,
 casting Night User is not effected by it.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Give Brumetower a power cost to limit it's use.
 2-3p? Doesn't directly address the issue really but
 better then nothing.
Player Comments:
---[Krellan on 1/22 @ 20:37 writes]:
First, if the ability costs no shadows, but requires it, then it does in fact
cost shadows. Second, only one brumetower per person. If they are going to sit
there, you can wait and sit in the trees. You are not forced to fight the way
the other person wants and vice versa. Third, Shadowdancers no longer have
succumb. What this means is they should not be able to kill you without choke,
the choke effect will have a better delay than sapping.
---[Lehki on 1/22 @ 20:49 writes]:
The no cost was more referring use of brumetower doesn't hinder night users or
prevent them from using any of the other abilities, should have worded that
better. It takes barely a second to drop shadows and then raise brumetower, so
even if I'm forcing them to move around, raising a new brumetower is easy to do.
And night users includes Ebonguard, not just Shadowdancers, Warriors can use
Brumetower too, and choke wouldn't be a necessity to them. And while
Shadowdancers will probably have to use Choke to kill, I disagree that's a valid
reason to let them so easily block use of Sap.
---[Lehki on 1/22 @ 21:00 writes]:
And on further thought... you say I don't have to fight the way the person
wants. But wouldn't waiting for said person to choke because I can't sap be
basically that?
---[Xenthos on 1/23 @ 02:13 writes]:
Brumetower was already nerfed to only be one room only (per caster) for
precisely this reason. Current situation is fine as-is-- demesne can be many
rooms, if the person follows you and puts up a new Brumetower, the old one is
gone. Further, brumetower doesn't knock you out of trees when used, so...
Krellan's pretty correct.
---[Lehki on 1/23 @ 18:45 writes]:
While not as bad as before the previous nerf, the current situation is not fine
as is. The old Brumetower may drop, but that doesn't change that raising a new
Brumetower can be done very quickly if the Night user moves or is forced out
from under the old one, even faster if they happen to back to where the old one
as, as shadows will likely still be released. And not getting knocked from
trees means what? If Brumetower happened to be raised while both the druid and
night user were already in the trees, the druid would need to saplock before the
target managed to simply climb down, Brumetower does not effect movement out of
sky or tree elevation, which it shouldn't.
---[Xenthos on 1/23 @ 20:44 writes]:
I adamantly disagree. So does the other Druid envoy (who is the only other
guild that has such tree requirements). It is completely fine as-is.
Brumetower is meant to not allow movement into trees, and that is what it does.
You can go to another room. And, because it doesn't drop you out of trees when
it's cast, you do even have a bit of room to maneuver if you are already there.
You just can't get back up if you leave.
---[Lehki on 1/23 @ 21:38 writes]:
Druid envoy who probably rarely has to fight against Brumetower. And just on
that note, Brumetower doesn't really effect any other guild, besides possibly
Aeromancers. If you're in the trees already when Brumetower is up, where you
going to maneuver to? You can only climb down at that point, can't walk out of
it or pull somebody into it with you. And once again, raising a new brumetower
in another room can be done very quickly and easily. Only takes dropping
shadows which has a very short EQ(I think under a second, not positive) and then
Brumetower can be raised. Being able to 100% block use of a druid's most
important ability in a room for no cost besides a single shadow with 2 quick
actions is not okay.
---[Jael on 1/24 @ 03:25 writes]:
Using Krellan's logic from above, if a Shadowdancer is going to have to choke to
kill the druid, then regardless of whether or not said SD uses Brumetower, he or
she is going to be using shadows. Therefore, the cost for shadows in this case
seems like a potentially weak argument. As to the logic of sap vs. choke: Sap
doesn't hinder the druid, so while the delay may be less, it's not the same
thing. All in all, I can understand the concern. I think solution #1 is the best
because it addresses a specific druid problem with a specific druid solution.
Also, I find it very silly that the "master of the forest" cannot somehow
override a blob of shadows.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 04:57 writes]:
Brumetower was made to be one-room only. It does what it is intended to.
Putting holes in it is... well... basically just an attempt to neuter a skill
that is not liked, heh. It is not as if Krellan (the other Druid envoy) does
not have to "deal with brumetower" as there are, in fact, situations in which it
must be dealt with. The current restriction on Brumetower is that it can only
be used in one room. I am fine with giving it a 1-2p cost, -if- it can be cast
in multiple rooms once more (just like other room effects). The skill is fine
as is. If it is to be nerfed more by giving it a power cost (as other room
effects), it should function like other room effects and be able to be cast more
than once. But there is no way that it needs to start going, "Hey, this skill
stops all movement into the skies and trees. Except, oh, this skill.
Randomly."
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 05:11 writes]:
Because, as currently, Hartstone Druids have: Headbutt, beastkick, and even gust
enchants to get someone out of the brumetowered room. Blacktalon have the
latter two. Beastkick, follow, raise cudgel, and you're guaranteed that there's
no brumetower in the new room at present.
---[Jael on 1/24 @ 05:29 writes]:
As Krellan posted, if it is indeed necessary for a Shadowdancer to use choke, we
can assume wherever they fight, they will be dropping shadows. Where they drop
shadows, they can instantly raise a new brumetower. Therefore, it's not feasible
for a druid in any real way to keep a Shadowdancer from using a skill that 100%
prevents sap. Moving them around doesn't do much because when they move, they
will likely just release more shadows.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 05:48 writes]:
Jael, you're forgetting that beast kick consumes no balance. You're also
forgetting that raise cudgel stuns. Even if the person releases shadows
instantly, beastkick / move / raise cudgel beats it out. Especially if you do
it right at a demesne tick so that they can't do it immediately anyways
(currently you might raise cudgel just at a demesne tick. Toss in a beast kick
/ move before it instead, for example, and you're assured that there is no
brumetower in the new room).
---[Jael on 1/24 @ 05:58 writes]:
I'm not sure I follow your point. Sap locks require a significant setup to
accomplish. Beast kicking someone into a room following up by raise cudgel
doesn't do anything special. The person will have time to climb down, release
shadows, and then use brumetower again. I think you are missing a key point in
this discussion: Sap is the MAJOR offensive tactic for druids. It should not be
possible to so casually prevent it while you setup for choke. Beast kick also
doesn't work if the target is prone so trying to beast kick someone paralysed
will fail. The tactic you provided is therefore invalid.
---[Lehki on 1/24 @ 06:22 writes]:
While that combo could place a druid and the night user into the trees,
following it up with a successful sap lock before the night user is able to
climb down and raise a new brumetower is really, not that feasible. Sap lock
takes a careful set up and timing to be successful. As well, returning
brumetower to multiple rooms even at a power cost, is absolutely not acceptable,
especially with the now diminished demesne sizes would be far to simple to cover
an entire demesne with brumetowers.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 06:35 writes]:
Not at all, Jael. Lehki states that the combination would work. It requires
just a little more timing-- at the moment when you would raise cudgel, you would
instead beast kick, follow, and raise cudgel all at the exact same time (neither
beast kick nor move take equilibrium/balance, so you can do all actions at
once). Finally: Putting holes in Brumetower / further nerfing it when it has
already been nerfed is unacceptable to me as well, Lehki, without giving it
something back. If you want to give it a power cost, let it work in multiple
rooms again.
---[Krellan on 1/24 @ 06:43 writes]:
Jael, the beast kick not working on prone targets only refers to true prone, not
p in prompt prone i.e. sprawled on the ground prone. I had my fair share against
brumetower too since I was Hartstone for a year and this was with the multiple
room brumetower. This is definitely manageable. The shadowdancer will eventually
run out of shadows if they choose to sit in the same room and recast brumetower.
There is also beast gust as an alternative to beast kick which works regardless
of the target being proned or not
---[Krellan on 1/24 @ 06:44 writes]:
Also, I am more preferable to changing sap than to changing brumetower. I think
sap needs a little something anyways, but it's a bit difficult to come up with a
solid idea.
---[Krellan on 1/24 @ 06:58 writes]:
Oh, also another more simpler solution came to mind. Just make it so a Night
user cannot recast brumetower until the old one has faded. That's if any nerf
needs to be made at all
---[Ceren on 1/24 @ 07:23 writes]:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't a cauldron hold over 200 shadows? That's a
more plentiful reserve than power imo. I think Brumetower is a fairly balanced
skill against everybody but druids, so the solution ought to be druid specific.
Solution 1.
---[Lehki on 1/24 @ 07:33 writes]:
I'm not trying to say that it's impossible to get a sap lock against a night
user making heavy use of brumetower. The ease of completely blocking use of sap
in a room with almost no limitations besides shadows, no limitations to the
night user unless they like to climb or fly to escape and can be set up in a
second is an issue that needs addressing of some sort and is not fine as is.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 15:43 writes]:
But that's the point, Lehki. It is blocked in -a- room. One single room.
Which still leaves you options to deal with it. You've got those options, you
just don't want to use them. 1) Leave it as-is, or 2) Give it a 1-2p cost and
let it be cast in multiple rooms again (just as other room skills), with the
power cost now being the limiter instead of once per room.
---[Lehki on 1/24 @ 16:20 writes]:
A single room that can be changed in a moments notice. And with a power cost
that low, multi-room Brumetower would just be back to the old issue of being
able to completely cover a demesne in brumetowers, especially with the now
smaller demesne size.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 17:07 writes]:
A "moment's notice" that can be pre-empted by using the skills at your disposal
to beat them to the punch. Especially since theirs takes actions that use up
equilibrium while the counter uses none, until the "raise cudgel" command...
which you would be using anyways. I'm feeling rather firm about this-- if you
want to give it a power cost, let it be cast in multiple rooms again, just like
any other room effect skill that people have to either deal with or move around.
Otherwise, leave it as-is. It would be fine in either respect. Under no
circumstance should we start adding holes to the skill, however.
---[Lehki on 1/24 @ 17:26 writes]:
No other movement blocking ability has a 100% success rate aside from GreatPent,
a 10p trans skill. That beastkick, raise cudgel combo relies on 2 successful
forced movements in a row for one brief chance to sap if the Night user just
brumetowers again. I'm feeling just as firm that it needs some direct counter
or nerf, and that allowing multi-room brumetowers again is a bad idea.
---[Xenthos on 1/24 @ 18:01 writes]:
It has a direct counter. One-room-only. Use the skills at your disposal to get
around it.
---[Krellan on 1/25 @ 02:45 writes]:
Well, i mean basic walls is 100% movement blocking ability to move (direction).
Same with blocking firm. Barrier is also 100% success in blocking the movement
that it specifies. There are a lot of abilities which block 100% of the time,
the movement it is -supposed- to block
---[Lehki on 1/25 @ 06:22 writes]:
I could have phrased that better, I suppose, but walls and firm blocking work on
only one type of movement and can be bypassed or even removed with a number of
abilities and this is not the case with brumetower. I'll admit Barrier slipped
my mind before, but it's also a 10p skill, at 50% mythical, and can be dropped
with a disruption scroll.
---[Nienla on 1/26 @ 17:41 writes]:
What? Wasn't this ability already downgraded to be one-room only? I would
suggest looking up Narsrim, Lehki. By no means is Brumetower a complete lockdown
of your offense. You still have passive effects working in Choke, and Choke
SHOULD be mostly in your advantage compared to the Shadowdancers. Narsrim used
Thornrend famously as Maesin, and also used embedded runes extremely well
against Shadowdancers. I'm also starting to get really agitated with the
constant Night envoys for abilities that were already downgraded, but now it
seems people want to bring the entire skillset down into uselessness.
---[Jael on 1/26 @ 23:57 writes]:
The point of this envoy report has nothing to do with what exceptional, creative
fighters can accomplish. It also has nothing to do with the mishaps various
people have experienced where choke backfired. The bottom line is should the
Night skillset have a 100% counter to Sap. As this is the chief offensive tactic
of druids, then druids should have a counter.
---[Jael on 1/26 @ 23:57 writes]:
I wouldn't quite jump to say that giving raise cudgel the ability to override
Brumetower somehow makes the entire Night skillset or even Brumetower itself
useless. The major concern people have always had with the Night skillset that
is slowly being addressed is the array of abilities that have no cure or no
counter. Hence envoy reports for Succumb (now in Moon), Choke, Brumetower,
Longnight, etc. Personally, I think that addressing a druid problem with a druid
specific solution is nothing short of ideal.
---[Lehki on 1/27 @ 03:35 writes]:
I think 'just fight in choke' is kind of a silly argument against this, and a
bit besides the point. I don't believe I ever claimed that Brumetower
completely shuts down all druid offense, but that it has a really big impact by
blocking sap in a room, has no direct counter, and has a negligible effect and
cost for the night user. And would allowing one active ability that is
resistible really THAT big of a nerf?
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