Report 1650

Special Report #1650
Skillset: Kata Skill: Poisons
 Org: Moondancers Status: Rejected Dec 2007
Furies' Decision:
We do not find any of these solutions appealing at this time.
Problem: Current monks do a very high affliction rate in terms of affliction
output per singular hit, by using both venoms and their monk abilities, often
ending up with 6+ afflictions per form if done right. This report aims to
slightly address this, by revisiting the usage of venoms by current monks.
Solution #1: Limit the ability for weapon poisons to trigger only on the basic
 monk weapon attacks ( shofa, tahto, nekai, etc)
Solution #2: Remove the ability for monks to evenom their weapons. Instead,
 introduce an ability for them to 'poison punch', allowing their
 basic 'punch' to deliver a venom instead. Syntax something like
 'envenom left fist with mantakaya'
Solution #3: #1 and reduce/remove the ability to shrug the poisons delivered
 this way.
Player Comments:
---[Aeldra on 3/28 @ 07:41 writes]:
I want to emphasize this, that I understand this as a base for discussion. One
of the monk players gave me the idea and I felt like it's worth considering, as
it would make it easier to balance the monk classes by limiting the random
factor that poisons have. I didn't feel like outright removing poison usage from
monks was a good idea, but I feel having a compromise like this would be a good
discussion point. So please, do ahead and discuss and if the consensus is that
this is not the way to go, I still feel it's a worthy discussion to be had.
---[Wobou on 3/28 @ 08:09 writes]:
I'll have to think on it some more but my initial impression is that I support
solution 1. I think if we went that route then the rub rate should be guaranteed
but not shrugging. This gives monks who sacrifice their guaranteed afflictions
to try for a poison a bit of a boost but also provides an incentive to use
skills like oolibah or go for damaged organs. I think adopting something like
this would make it much easier to balance the skills in question, if implemented
we would need to verify that all monk specs can still maintain an appropriate
amount of aff pressure as I'm sure some are more poison reliant than others.
---[Avurekhos on 3/28 @ 15:19 writes]:
I'm sort of in the same boat as Wobou and it seems like an idea with merit.
Monks from my understanding are rather affliction dependant on top of
bruising/bleeding to reach the ceiling for their kill conditions, which are
restricted to the highest stance in a form aside from the vital pressure to get
there. While I feel it may be heavy handed to really do away with poisons on
this scale, perhaps solution 1 could state poisons triggering on
base/twist/center? stances may have such a restriction to kata weapon attacks
alone so it doesn't feel so overwhelming to those on the receiving end to start.
The monk will still be able to reach a reasonable ceiling with their
bleeding/bruising + afflictions to pull off their kill conditions if that is the
path they're choosing this way. To me, this could be ideal, and the best of both
world solution. Although I guess that's up for discussion as well.
---[Shedrin on 3/28 @ 19:34 writes]:
Solution 3 kind of removes the drawback of using the basic attacks. They do more
bleed/damage/whatever in return for not doing an affliction as I understand it.
Solution 2 sounds weird and not the direction I think we should go. Solution 1
could be ok, but I'm not sure it's necessary or desired. Overall I think it
might be best to adjust afflicting rates through other methods.
---[Wobou on 3/29 @ 06:08 writes]:
This is probably an impossible to code suggestion but what if monk armed actions
"tried" the poison first and failing that performed the aff associated with the
action? So take kumati form shofangi for example, kumati chest causes
rigormortis. If I envenom it with mantakaya it'll attempt to rub paralysis, if
the rub fails or the target shrugs then I get my rigormortis, otherwise I get
paralysis. If I wipe the shofa before attacking then I always get rigormortis
(asusuming no parry). This allows a monk to RNG their way to affs they would
prefer with a fallback without increasing the monk aff rate.
---[Lerad on 3/29 @ 08:33 writes]:
I'm not opposed to this idea. But I do agree with Shedrin somewhat, that there
can be other ways to adjust the aff rate as well. I think the admin are also
considering removing the early stance afflictions, perhaps, and also further
locking kick afflictions to surge etc, that will limit the aff rate. I think
that might be better overall, if we lower the guaranteed afflictions at the
lower stances. Tentatively, if those changes don't materialize (or they are not
enough), this would be a good idea to pursue instead.
---[Enyalida on 3/29 @ 18:32 writes]:
Supported. I would support going further and removing the ability for monks to
use poisons, period. If the monk needs additional afflicting power, it makes
more sense to give them skills in their specific skillsets to address those
needs in a more targeted, controllable way. It doesn't make sense at all to pin
monk afflicting balance to warrior afflicting balance (and bard afflicting
balance and druid afflicting balance through ecology).
---[Shedrin on 3/29 @ 20:44 writes]:
Poisons are a large part of monk combat thematics, though.
---[Shuyin on 3/31 @ 01:40 writes]:
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise of the report and while I agree
that monk output is currently high, I place the blame more on stance bonus affs
and similar effects (the special kicks) than monk weapons tbh
---[Lerad on 3/31 @ 14:38 writes]:
With the recent changes to remove afflictions from base/twist/centre stances,
and also lock kick afflictions behind surge stane, I think it will be a good
idea to put this on hold.
---[Enyalida on 4/18 @ 04:15 writes]:
Thematically including "poisons" as a source of monk afflicting is possible
outside of the existing poisons mechanic, and it allows a more fine-tuned
approach to each problem affliction or aff stack.