143930-ampability-grind-too-much

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The endgame has been reasonably paced so far and enjoyable, up until I decided to turn my focus towards amp/abilities. Both the casual methods/hardcore methods are too long or too time intensive. The casual method is EG capping, golding shiphands, golding dungeons (as it happens), daily rep, path, etc. This, while happening during normal play, would still take at least a few months of regular play which is too long time just to get your ability points/amps. Seriously, I did the dailies every day since F2P launch and I've only just hit esteemed with the 3 daily factions - and the reward for all that if you do hit beloved? Only 3/10 of your amp points. 40 promissory notes gave me somewhere around 15% of 1 rep level.
 
The hardcore method, or the more immediately time-intensive and popular method, is obviously PVP at this point and the one I've been indulging in for what feels like eternity over this past weekend. I've probably put in a good 30 hours thus far, and still have 5 amps to left (I supplemented with the path rewards as well) over a DOUBLE prestige weekend. By the time I hit max on both, I will be around 40 hours. Keep in mind I also used 2 flask of riches during this time. 40 hours is long enough as is, but if it WAS NOT a 2x prestige weekend, the average player would be looking at more like 80 hours. This is absurd. You could level 3 new characters up to 50 in that time. I'd also like to note that reaching ilvl75 (time spent in dungeons and endgame PVE) was maybe something like 15-25 hours for comparison.
 
I'm definitely hitting a state of burnout, but pushing through because I know I have enjoyed and love everything else I've experienced in this game up to this point.
I know the suggestion of adding amps/abilities to the glory vendor has been brought up, and while I think that would help, I still don't think it's enough. I think the currency costs of these upgrades needs to be lowered as well. If this was an optional part of the game, I wouldn't be so critical, but this is the opposite - ability points/talent points are essential to your character.
 
I'll be overjoyed to be done at the end of this weekend, but I feel sorry for anyone who has to go through this grind and/or the wait without the bonuses I've utilized.
 
 	
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			Sorry but max ability points and amps are not essential. They are just like gear upgrades.	
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			keep in mind you can also buy them at the ah, and find them every now and then.	
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Sorry but max ability points and amps are not essential. They are just like gear upgrades.
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Well, the event is almost over, but I would run some BGs.
 
Drink a flask of riches and go chain-que bgs and you get just COVERED in prestige.  I've already gotten 2 ability points, and about to get my third amp point just from ~ 4? 5 hours spread across these last few days farming bgs.
 
And even after, you can still do them. 
 
They also aren't going for that high atm on the CX - before they would be like 30 plat, not they're only 3. 
 
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Sorry but max ability points and amps are not essential. They are just like gear upgrades.
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Well, the event is almost over, but I would run some BGs.
 
Drink a flask of riches and go chain-que bgs and you get just COVERED in prestige.  I've already gotten 2 ability points, and about to get my third amp point just from ~ 4? 5 hours spread across these last few days farming bgs.
 
And even after, you can still do them. 
 
They also aren't going for that high atm on the CX - before they would be like 30 plat, not they're only 3. 
 
 
AP are a bit essential depending on what a raid group wants form  you, but you can get by (though you'll be much further behind).
 
But yeah, you can still perform just fine and get the job done.
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Oh I remember this topic from when people complained about it when the points weren't given to you on a silver platter and you had to either get the rare world drops or had to pay 300-500 elder gems per.... 
 
No, No, No. Not only are they perfectly reasonable, they are much too easy to acquire now. No mechanics in the game, including raids actually require any extra amp / ability points. They used to be a nice carrot on a stick to see some marginal improvement in your end game characters.... now they are everywhere. 
 
80 hours is nothing to put in an MMO, literally nothing. Heck 80 hours doesn't even get you half way through a decent RPG let alone an MMORPG. 	
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No, No, No. Not only are they perfectly reasonable, they are much too easy to acquire now.
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			Or you could buy them from the ah, they are significantly cheaper now since the drop buff :)	
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Oh I remember this topic from when people complained about it when the points weren't given to you on a silver platter and you had to either get the rare world drops or had to pay 300-500 elder gems per.... 
 
No, No, No. Not only are they perfectly reasonable, they are much too easy to acquire now. No mechanics in the game, including raids actually require any extra amp / ability points. They used to be a nice carrot on a stick to see some marginal improvement in your end game characters.... now they are everywhere. 
 
80 hours is nothing to put in an MMO, literally nothing. Heck 80 hours doesn't even get you half way through a decent RPG let alone an MMORPG. 
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MMOs like this are all about the grind, man.  Everything you're doing that's not like...decorating your house is a grind.  The important thing is how the grind feels not the existence OF the grind.
 
Hitting the level cap means that you're still doing the same things you've been doing, more or less, but without that refreshing level up happening every now and again.  Don't ever believe that MMOs don't require a lot of time investment...that's almost literally what they're built for.	
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MMOs like this are all about the grind, man.  Everything you're doing that's not like...decorating your house is a grind.  The important thing is how the grind feels not the existence OF the grind.
 
Hitting the level cap means that you're still doing the same things you've been doing, more or less, but without that refreshing level up happening every now and again.  Don't ever believe that MMOs don't require a lot of time investment...that's almost literally what they're built for.
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			I guess what really surprises me is that people are complaining that their character continues to progress outside of gear once you hit level cap.  Isn't this a good thing? Would you rather be 100% dependent upon random drops for your character to keep getting stronger?  It's not completely ideal, as far as level cap systems go. But it's better than nothing.   
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Elite Seraph	
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Grind is fine. However, when you have two equally important pieces of progression having wildly different amounts of time-investment required is off-putting to new players. Also, the content that you utilize to achieve the end-result being far more limited.
 
Pre-raid ilvl80 gear: Variety of dungeons, while doing expeditions/shiphands along the way. 30hr tops time investment
Amps/abilities: PVP, PVP, PVP, PVP. 80 hours	Dailies, Gold Medals, Path, etc   2-3 months
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I don't think your numbers are accurate since it seems like the time investments for those things has changed.
 
I think either one of the signature bonuses or cosmic rewards is a bonus to rep gains so that's another boost to speed there.
 
If this thread took place 2-3 months from now I might believe you were speaking from a point of personal relevance rather than exaggeration.
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Basically, my point is this, for clarification:
 
If it's suppose to be long-term marginal improvement then accept that and don't gate a fast-track behind PVP, because a large chunk of players ARE going to follow the fast-track and be met with roughly 150,000 Prestige they need to farm which is a grind that is out-of-sync time-wise with the rest of the pre-raid grind. Instead keep it locked behind dailies, plat, reputation, path, etc and let them unlock as you naturally progress.
 
Otherwise, if it's meant as pre-raid improvement that's along side gear upgrades then add amps/abilities to the glory vendor AND reduce the cost.
 
Edit: And for further clarification, this isn't whining cause it's "too hard", it's because it's too inconsistent with the rest of the endgame.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Krighten	
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Basically, my point is this, for clarification:
 
If it's suppose to be long-term marginal improvement then accept that and don't gate a fast-track behind PVP, because a large chunk of players ARE going to follow the fast-track and be met with roughly 150,000 Prestige they need to farm which is a grind that is out-of-sync time-wise with the rest of the pre-raid grind. Instead keep it locked behind dailies, plat, reputation, path, etc and let them unlock as you naturally progress.
 
Otherwise, if it's meant as pre-raid improvement that's along side gear upgrades then add amps/abilities to the glory vendor AND reduce the cost.
 
Edit: And for further clarification, this isn't whining cause it's "too hard", it's because it's too inconsistent with the rest of the endgame.
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It's not a fast track unless you're insane farming BG's. For casual players not spamming the living heck out of PvP you can get comparable drops + reward amps / abilities to the PvP ones. Honestly I'd even wager you could open world farm them in certain places faster than you could PvP them. And I guarantee that you could if you include farming for both drops AND plat to buy them. 
 
It's not inconsistent with endgame, its a seperate bonus system. Its not supposed to be like gearing or levelling.
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 not only is PVP the most efficient route for abilities/amps but ALSO one of the most efficient routes for plat. I'd need to see drop rates but seeing as how I didn't get a single amp drop 1-50, I doubt it..and at most people are reporting 2-3 amps from 1-50, so I really don't think so.
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It used to take months to get maxed. Nowadays it's really fast, even if you don't pvp, there are several ways to get them.
If you could get them in a weekend, it wouldn't be much of an accomplisment or something to work on, would it!? :D
View it as something to work on, to better your character.http://wildstar-core.com/2015/06/06/gotta-collect-em-all-ability-tier-point-unlocks-amp-power-upgrades/
<< not sure if 100% up to date, but it covers the different routes to get them.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Ng Mui	
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			From a PvP standpoint, this amp and skill point grind is just another huge barrier newer players have to overcome to be on an equal footing to veteran players, the other barriers being skill and gear. I just think it's amazing (appalling?) that it's almost 2016 and we're still forced to grind for all eternity. I came to this game specifically to play competitively in arenas so imagine my disappointment in finding out that before I can even step inside without being dominated mercilessly, I need to spend days, weeks, months inside mind numbing BGs farming and grinding and slaving away at my computer for gear, runes, and these amp/skill points, all of which isn't helping me at all in becoming an actual better player. It arguably makes me worse at the game. There's just so many barriers of entry in what's supposed to be a skill based game mode that it's no wonder everyone on these forums QQs about arenas being dead. In PvP, you should be rewarded for how good you are, not for how long you've AFK'd a BG.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by ellesee	
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From a PvP standpoint, this amp and skill point grind is just another huge barrier newer players have to overcome to be on an equal footing to veteran players, 
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Gear makes WAY more impact than having like, 3% life steal or w/e you're getting amps to fill out for.
 
I wasn't amped/AB'd out before this weekend, and I felt very very comfortable in vets as well as going into GA pugs - granted I have actual gear from ga but that's the thing - I have gear and know I can pull some amount of weight.
 
It really sounds like you just want them given to you immidiatly at hitting lvl 50.	
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PvP is not anywhere near the most efficient route to farm plat.  Certain expeditions are up there, but that only supports my point (as there are expedition mobs with points / tiers on their loot tables IIRC). 
 
To be clear, I'm not specifically referencing Shiphands/expeditions, but by your own admission farming them is a very quick way to get what you wan't with out PvP
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That seems like a LOT... are you sure your'e putting your amps in smartly?
 
I hit 50 on my warrior over half a year ago - i got amps and ABs through 1 daily zone, drops, pvp, and buying 1 or 2.
 
Not once was I told my dps was bad, or was I not allowed to raid.  I was able to go into GA as a buff bot warrior even without a 3rd t8.  Would I have done more damage if I could max out some of my DPs abilities instead of putting them into utility stuff?  Sure - but it wasn't a huge deal.
 
You don't need everything maxed out before raiding - guilds might want it once you get into DS, but if you've been running GA enough to get here - I'd hope you'd have the plat, experience, or a friendly guild to help you out.
 
Like others have said, it's like a mini-leveling at 50.  The most I would ask for is somehow easing up the grind for alts.
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That seems like a LOT... are you sure your'e putting your amps in smartly?
 
I hit 50 on my warrior over half a year ago - i got amps and ABs through 1 daily zone, drops, pvp, and buying 1 or 2.
 
Not once was I told my dps was bad, or was I not allowed to raid.  I was able to go into GA as a buff bot warrior even without a 3rd t8.  Would I have done more damage if I could max out some of my DPs abilities instead of putting them into utility stuff?  Sure - but it wasn't a huge deal.
 
You don't need everything maxed out before raiding - guilds might want it once you get into DS, but if you've been running GA enough to get here - I'd hope you'd have the plat, experience, or a friendly guild to help you out.
 
Like others have said, it's like a mini-leveling at 50.  The most I would ask for is somehow easing up the grind for alts.	
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I'm Krighten pay attention to my opinion.
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			I take the word grind like a grain of salt these days some people think grinding is it takes a few days to reach a level people are getting way to use to everything being handed to them.	
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			We all did this grind, except it took us a lot longer because there were less daily zones, no elder-gem weekly, no omnicore EG bonus, no currency bonuses, limited upgrades on the pvp vendor, no renown vendor upgrades, and exceptionally low world drop rates. Before that, they didn't even come from paths, pvp, gold dungeons, or daily zones, only EG (at 140 a week, and make sure you buy the key first). They  have made it considerably more managable, and while I agree it isn't perfect (Alts require repeat of the grind), I'm not sure adding a ton more AMP/Ability points would serve any purpose. Its not like you need them immediately either. I didn't finish my set until after we cleared the first floor of GA and were working on covergence. 
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by MedicMelawen	
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That seems like a LOT... are you sure your'e putting your amps in smartly?
 
I hit 50 on my warrior over half a year ago - i got amps and ABs through 1 daily zone, drops, pvp, and buying 1 or 2.
 
Not once was I told my dps was bad, or was I not allowed to raid.  I was able to go into GA as a buff bot warrior even without a 3rd t8.  Would I have done more damage if I could max out some of my DPs abilities instead of putting them into utility stuff?  Sure - but it wasn't a huge deal.
 
You don't need everything maxed out before raiding - guilds might want it once you get into DS, but if you've been running GA enough to get here - I'd hope you'd have the plat, experience, or a friendly guild to help you out.
 
Like others have said, it's like a mini-leveling at 50.  The most I would ask for is somehow easing up the grind for alts.
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We all did this grind, except it took us a lot longer because there were less daily zones, no elder-gem weekly, no omnicore EG bonus, no currency bonuses, limited upgrades on the pvp vendor, no renown vendor upgrades, and exceptionally low world drop rates. Before that, they didn't even come from paths, pvp, gold dungeons, or daily zones, only EG (at 140 a week, and make sure you buy the key first). They  have made it considerably more managable, and while I agree it isn't perfect (Alts require repeat of the grind), I'm not sure adding a ton more AMP/Ability points would serve any purpose. Its not like you need them immediately either. I didn't finish my set until after we cleared the first floor of GA and were working on covergence. 
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I'm stilll curious where you get this 80 horu grind number from.
 
I was able to get 3 APs, 2 ABs, and a full set of pvp gear from MAYBE 7-8 hours of casual play, around 4 hours with a flask on.
 
thats no where near "80 hours"	
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Probably cause you're Dominion which has different BG win rates. As Exile I probably had a 25-30% win rate, and it took me 40 hours of BG play over a 2x weekend to get 10amps, and 7abilities.
Was this over the 2x weekend? Cause if so, after 8 hours you're 5/17 of the way there, then 8x3.2 is like 27ish hours or so, multiplied by 2 for non double prestige weekend and you're still looking at 54 hours as Dominion
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I'm stilll curious where you get this 80 horu grind number from.
 
I was able to get 3 APs, 2 ABs, and a full set of pvp gear from MAYBE 7-8 hours of casual play, around 4 hours with a flask on.
 
thats no where near "80 hours"
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Which as I've said, is fine if it's intended to be marginal progression of your character by EG, dailies, etc, but by adding a 80 hour BG grind into the equation you complicate the matter. People will always take the fast track, and the truth of the matter is that the fast-track(BG's) is not a overall fun way to approach the matter, and is incredibly limiting in terms of scope of available content. Putting yourself through a meat grinder for 80 hours is not necessarily helpful to player retention either.
 
This goes back to the majority of responses here are from sources that are distant from the grind or are not reading the thread in its entirety. It's fine if you all did it as you went along (Which is a totally reasonable way of doing it if it was the intended, primary method). This isn't about how hard it used to be, it's about how time-consuming it is RELATIVE to other endgame content at the moment, and the fact that it is as significant as the gear-grind, which is incredibly short compared to the ability/amp grind.
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More AMPS were added to pvp vendor so that pvp players would not have to rely on RNG drops or PvE content to fill out their AMP/Ability sets. 
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I lost a ton too dude - I was never in a premade.
 
I highly doubt it was a 25% win rate as well - unless you flat out counted it, people's idea of win/loss are horribly skewed.
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I counted it over a 10 hour BG session Friday, it was roughly a 28% win ratio (Might not of counted one or two). Exiles have to not only win against premades, but also against Dominion which generally has a healthier PVP population. Most of the wins we had was against Exiles, that were not pre-mades.
 
Even then, if it was shorter then my estimation, then that doesn't help either. Now you're looking at weeks-months of daily PVE grinding (rep, dailies, eg) VS 50 hours of PVP. That's out of wack too.
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			Are you new to MMO's? This grind isn't bad at all anymore. 	
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			The PvE grind was about a month prior to f2p. With additional sources for rep boosts, it should be much less now if you care about doing it faster. You can get the ability/amp points from dailies(2/4), elder gems (1/1), path (1/1), and renown points (2/2), plus 1 cheap amp and 1 cheap ability point from pvp/drops/AH. The time committment is roughly the same to yours 70-100 hours, just more spread out. Different playstyles for different people. 
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by MedicMelawen	
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Nearly everyone but you is saying this, why is your experience so different then everyone elses? Not everyone does pvp.
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The grind is not proportional to the rest of the endgame grind.
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			AMPs/Tier points were never intended to be an immediate step after hitting level 50 that you would complete in a reasonable amount of time. Although the system has changed greatly now and it's possible to grind or buy your way to 48/57, it's not required for PvP, Expeditions, Adventures, Dungeons, or even GA (not sure about DS). Just play the game as you normally would for gear and runes, then the AMPs/Tier points will come naturally through lucky drops or elder gems. The system isn't broken-your mentality is.	
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I definitely agree with this, mostly because, the rest of the end-game grinds have been significantly reduced since launch. The amp/ability point grind has also been significantly reduced from when EG was really the only option. (Something like 9.5 months) But, the reduction is not as significant as the some the others. 
 
Attunement Grind --> signficantly reduced, no longer requires 1 week (140) and 10 EGs, solo quests, adventures, silver dungeons, world bosses, or partial primal patterns
Gear grind --> significantly reduced, since gear early in the game had a static number of rune slots that could not be rerolled, gear needed to be grinded over and over until you got a good piece with enough runeslots of the right colors. 
Rep grinds --> sgnificantly reduced, number of rep boosts in the game increases, protostar promissory notes
 
If you're honestly worried about ridiculous grinds, I think runing is currently a much more ridiculous grind.
 
 
I've really enjoyed discussing this with you. If I could offer a piece of constructive feedback, complaints on these forums tend to elicit the reaction from vets/players that you have seen. Constructive, specific, and particularly innovative suggestions are usually met with better dicussion, pros/cons, and in depth argument that Carbine occasionally listens to. Unfortunately the AMP/Ability grind thread has run so many times, including the reduced currency/glory/etc things discussed, and the best we got with f2p was increased drop rates and nothing really for alts.  
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 I don't want to be rude here.. but this is making me laugh a bit.. not at the OP but at the thought that amps and abilities are falling from the skies now.. amps are like what 5-7 plat now they used be several times more.. i had 2 ability points drop on my new alt yesterday now while that is a luck.. i had never once had an ability point drop for me period not out of the pvp bags or anywhere else..
 
So im saying the grind is a hell of a lot less than what it was.. enjoy it for what it is now.. could be a lot lot worst.
 
The grind wouldn't be so bad if elder gem caps where removed which I can't see for the life of me as to why carbine hasn't removed it.. you can already fast farm pvp to get them why not be able to pve fast farm as well.. doesn't seemed balanced between the two methods.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Rebel Angel	
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The grind wouldn't be so bad if elder gem caps where removed which I can't see for the life of me as to why carbine hasn't removed it.. you can already fast farm pvp to get them why not be able to pve fast farm as well.. doesn't seemed balanced between the two methods.
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The grind wouldn't be so bad if elder gem caps where removed which I can't see for the life of me as to why carbine hasn't removed it.. you can already fast farm pvp to get them why not be able to pve fast farm as well.. doesn't seemed balanced between the two methods.​
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The grind wouldn't be so bad if elder gem caps where removed which I can't see for the life of me as to why carbine hasn't removed it.. you can already fast farm pvp to get them why not be able to pve fast farm as well.. doesn't seemed balanced between the two methods.
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