124303-want-more-players-lfrduty-finder-page-3

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This is simply incorrect. LFR is a queue system that lets you do other stuff while you wait for a 20-man PUG to pop, which then transports you instantly to the location of the 20-man content, and returns you to where you were when it's over.
 
For R12, you sit around R12 and spam Zone until you get people to show up--if they ever do. Or you learn to memorize a time when a large guild is rolling through and ride their wake.
 
LFR does not exist in this game in any form whatsoever. Open world 20-person content is not even remotely the same thing, which is why games that have open world large-group content also have LFR at the same time.
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We're talking specifically about a far easier version of the raid (and using the same mechanics present).
 
If we were discussing just a system whereby a group could automatically be queued into the existing Genetic Archives, this discussing wouldn't have gotten past page one.  The reason it has is because we're speaking now specifically about a version which would remove the difficulty from the raid under the assumption that a pickup group couldn't be held to the same standard as an actual raid group.
 
Unless your stance is that raids should just be added as a category to the group finder.
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Bolded is my discussion and point. That is all I ask for. 
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Bolded is my discussion and point. That is all I ask for. 
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If this were the case, I almost guarantee it woudn't be used. People already shy away from queueing for dungeons without a premade group of some sort. If it was GA which I could queue up for, then I doubt most random pugs would get past X89, or even genetic monstrosity.
 
I could get behind a boss in a box GA though. Queue up to fight X89. Maybe have to have key attuned slighty to do it (vet dungeons suppose) and lower his dps and make small bombs a bit more forgiving (slower spawn), hit platforms twice.
 
Have them drop UPG and SSM level gear, as well as some cool costume pieces which are unique to that boss in a box. And they are already doing bosses in a box so why not take some cool GA bosses and put them in a box and let people who can't commit to a full GA attempt to clear through the LFR bosses. Lower time commitment, still the same fun.
 
EDIT: The only thing I would be worried about is people queueing for GA, not realize what they are getting into, and then get frustrated and quit. At least with a guild, you have a raid lead, and some form of someone telling you what you should be doing and if you are new, they expect that and are willing to work with you.
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I wonder what the effect would be if you made each of the bosses available in its own instance on a once-per-week lockout. Same loot- same challenge. You'd have to clear the trash up to the boss and then could spend the evening working on it. You'd see a lot of repeat queues for x-89 for sure, but I'll bet people would learn it. It would take away from the epic feel of going into a raid for an evening, but it would certainly allow those with limited to to experience the content.
 
Not sure how you'd handle the minis though. Maybe make those only available if you do the whole instance as a reward for that? I'd say they could be their own instances, but clearly some of the second floor minis are designed to be rewards for getting through the first floor bosses because they are really, really easy.
 
Anyway, I'd much prefer a way of breaking up GA into more manageable chunks than seeing the fights themselves nerfed.	
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			To be perfectly honest I'd like to see something similar to how WoW does it. Toned down fights, 1-2 hours required (break it up into wings to keep it somewhat challenging but still able to fit in that time constraint), able to see the story/lore, and some entry level raid gear that's between dungeon gear and normal raid gear (personalized loot would be icing on the cake, but restricting loot to the role you're playing would suffice).	
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The solution its obvious, TT has given us a hint, why instead of a GA version in LFR we got another content GA inspired with the same bosses and simillar fights but not the same that grasp the content, that is puggable  and requires less people (10 man), and gives itm lvl 61 and is divided by wings (short time sessions)
 
example
 
Sistem core of the Genetic Archives- act 1
 
X-88 (a smaller experiment predecesor of x-89 so not having his full capacities but its pretty similar, not big bomb but a ton of little bombs in a smaller room)
gravitron matrix (a hologram of gravitron, you must damage the interface so he cant communicate with the sistem core of the GA fight very similar but damage lowered, if you dont fall into the spot the damage is not instant but by a dot)
phage maw ( a very similar fight but at the end it mutates and you barelly escape, leaving the stronger phage maw for the raiders that will come later)
 
this 3 can be the act 1, you can queue for it in the LFG tool, it can be completed in 1 to 2 hours, gives pets versions of the bosses, decors and costumes, and gear itm lvl 61 and at the end give one piece itm lvl 63,   it being a prelude to GA, it unlocks by beating SSM reg, and vet STL KV and SC, no need of medals just complete them, the dps needed will be 3k on the bosses (2,5k is needed in order to beat stormtalon so 3k is a good milestone for something like this) and  the healers can do good with 2,3 sp.
 
this will give the non raiders a gasp of the fights (not all but the majority) be another gear filler preparing for raids (SSM and protogames still give itm lvl 61 and 63 so giving it there wouldnt be a problem) and the raiders wont feel they got their content watered down because it will be in another zone GA inspired with previous versions of the bosses with similar fights but not the same fights that give lesser and fewer loot.
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If this were the case, I almost guarantee it woudn't be used. People already shy away from queueing for dungeons without a premade group of some sort. If it was GA which I could queue up for, then I doubt most random pugs would get past X89, or even genetic monstrosity.
 
I could get behind a boss in a box GA though. Queue up to fight X89. Maybe have to have key attuned slighty to do it (vet dungeons suppose) and lower his dps and make small bombs a bit more forgiving (slower spawn), hit platforms twice.
 
Have them drop UPG and SSM level gear, as well as some cool costume pieces which are unique to that boss in a box. And they are already doing bosses in a box so why not take some cool GA bosses and put them in a box and let people who can't commit to a full GA attempt to clear through the LFR bosses. Lower time commitment, still the same fun.
 
EDIT: The only thing I would be worried about is people queueing for GA, not realize what they are getting into, and then get frustrated and quit. At least with a guild, you have a raid lead, and some form of someone telling you what you should be doing and if you are new, they expect that and are willing to work with you.
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			Many people don't want to waste their valuable free time waiting around for a competent group to form. LFR can simply be a second difficulty level with lower rewards. I personally have no issue with the current difficulty, but I also understand not everyone is me. I would rather have people to play with whenever it is I log in, than have super challenging content that I can only play once in a while. That's just my opinion.	
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I could get behind a boss in a box GA though. Queue up to fight X89. Maybe have to have key attuned slighty to do it (vet dungeons suppose) and lower his dps and make small bombs a bit more forgiving (slower spawn), hit platforms twice.
 
Have them drop UPG and SSM level gear, as well as some cool costume pieces which are unique to that boss in a box. And they are already doing bosses in a box so why not take some cool GA bosses and put them in a box and let people who can't commit to a full GA attempt to clear through the LFR bosses. Lower time commitment, still the same fun.
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The solution its obvious, TT has given us a hint, why instead of a GA version in LFR we got another content GA inspired with the same bosses and simillar fights but not the same that grasp the content, that is puggable  and requires less people (10 man), and gives itm lvl 61 and is divided by wings (short time sessions)
 
example
 
Sistem core of the Genetic Archives- act 1
 
X-88 (a smaller experiment predecesor of x-89 so not having his full capacities but its pretty similar, not big bomb but a ton of little bombs in a smaller room)
gravitron matrix (a hologram of gravitron, you must damage the interface so he cant communicate with the sistem core of the GA fight very similar but damage lowered, if you dont fall into the spot the damage is not instant but by a dot)
phage maw ( a very similar fight but at the end it mutates and you barelly escape, leaving the stronger phage maw for the raiders that will come later)
 
this 3 can be the act 1, you can queue for it in the LFG tool, it can be completed in 1 to 2 hours, gives pets versions of the bosses, decors and costumes, and gear itm lvl 61 and at the end give one piece itm lvl 63,   it being a prelude to GA, it unlocks by beating SSM reg, and vet STL KV and SC, no need of medals just complete them, the dps needed will be 3k on the bosses (2,5k is needed in order to beat stormtalon so 3k is a good milestone for something like this) and  the healers can do good with 2,3 sp.
 
this will give the non raiders a gasp of the fights (not all but the majority) be another gear filler preparing for raids (SSM and protogames still give itm lvl 61 and 63 so giving it there wouldnt be a problem) and the raiders wont feel they got their content watered down because it will be in another zone GA inspired with previous versions of the bosses with similar fights but not the same fights that give lesser and fewer loot.
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LFR confirmed :|
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Just want to clarify. No, no it is not.
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			If I wanted a watered down game play experience where I didn't have to communicate, learn mechanics, or care to improve myself....I'd play GW2 or some other similar game. If Carbine decides that Wildstar's population issue would be solved by a LFR (It probably wouldn't, unless you basically gave out free loot to the whiners who need validation to stay subscribed to a game they're only superficially committed to), then I think we should make a few things clear.Don't mess with the current difficulty of veteran dungeons or 20 man raids. Create alternate options for bad players or players that don't have much time to play.Don't change mechanics of any sort between the raids or dungeons unless accommodating a smaller party or raid size. (Best way to do this is to create a third tier for dungeons or raids - Normal, Veteran, Hard Mode and re-tune each to match.)Don't offer rewards that are on-par with top tier content like current GA or DS. Offer cosmetics, pets, etc to entice all types of players, not just casuals looking for a loot handout.Don't destroy the integrity of the current hierarchy. Players should strive to improve themselves, not feel entitled to having what other guilds have worked hours for, for less just because you need subs.Offer different options for players constrained by time.If the dungeons or raids get nerfed as a result of this implementation, I see no reason to play this game compared to others. If I wanted to zerg bosses with no mechanics or strategic communication for easy loot, I'd be playing GW2.Thanks for reading and please don't screw over the real fans that love the game as is just to get more wishy washy players that will just leave eventually. There are better ways to get players, like making the game B2P with no sub, then instituting a cosmetic cash shop. Promoting more advertising and exposure of current game features like housing...etc.	
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Just want to clarify. No, no it is not.
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In response to your reddit post, if the team is not interested in making multiple dificulties of a raid, then how about a 10man karazhan style raid. I think 10man is the perfect size for pug stlye raid content since it gives you a raid feel but with less need for coordination.
 
Karazhan was one of my favourite raids in WoW, It was mostly pug friendly but also had a great setting with some really fun boss fights.
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I wonder what the effect would be if you made each of the bosses available in its own instance on a once-per-week lockout. Same loot- same challenge. You'd have to clear the trash up to the boss and then could spend the evening working on it. You'd see a lot of repeat queues for x-89 for sure, but I'll bet people would learn it. It would take away from the epic feel of going into a raid for an evening, but it would certainly allow those with limited to to experience the content.
 
... snippage ..
 
Anyway, I'd much prefer a way of breaking up GA into more manageable chunks than seeing the fights themselves nerfed.
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But why?  UPG is five man and is raid-hard.  Unlike a lot of other games, I think one of the reasons LFR suffers as an idea here is because the 5 mans are actually meaty content.
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The other thing that's desperately needed is per-boss loot lockouts.  Even if you've cleared all the bosses you could still queue for the instance and fight the bosses you just didn't get any loot rolls.
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FWIW, I do feel the 20 man feel is PERFECT for GA and I wouldn't want to see a 10 man version.
 
But a 10 man instance would be a great addition.	
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Because Kara was awesome. UPG is fun, but a different kind of fun. Kara was a great social time to get a bunch of people together on TS and do PvE together. It wasn't about the challenge, but the atmosphere and community.
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But why?  UPG is five man and is raid-hard.  Unlike a lot of other games, I think one of the reasons LFR suffers as an idea here is because the 5 mans are actually meaty content.
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If they wanted to focus on community events, they REALLY need to make those open world, not instanced.  Open world raid content in this game has been fun, but it can be made superior to Kara.  Kara will pale, now and forever, in terms of atmosphere, to being present for the opening of Ahn Qiraj.  Or the plague events.  That's one thing I wish more games did, including Wildstar.  Something a lot further than EVE's Incursion events, and on a faster clip than any other game's expansion events.
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If they wanted to focus on community events, they REALLY need to make those open world, not instanced.  Open world raid content in this game has been fun, but it can be made superior to Kara.  Kara will pale, now and forever, in terms of atmosphere, to being present for the opening of Ahn Qiraj.  Or the plague events.  That's one thing I wish more games did, including Wildstar.  Something a lot further than EVE's Incursion events, and on a faster clip than any other game's expansion events.
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Challenge is only part of the equation.  The social dynamics of an 10 man team are different from a 5 man one.  20 mans are large enough that people start feeling disconnected from the social aspect.
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If they wanted to focus on community events, they REALLY need to make those open world, not instanced.  Open world raid content in this game has been fun, but it can be made superior to Kara.  Kara will pale, now and forever, in terms of atmosphere, to being present for the opening of Ahn Qiraj.  Or the plague events.  That's one thing I wish more games did, including Wildstar.  Something a lot further than EVE's Incursion events, and on a faster clip than any other game's expansion events.
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I thought UPG, in fact all the vet dungeons, are more like 5 man raids than just a dungeon.  They're certainly more engaging than any ten man content I've done elsewhere.
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or like Gw2. some of the monthly limited time events (like the marionnette, or the tower of nightmare) we're great. they created hype and were probably some of my most memorable "massive" moments in any game.
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*sigh*
 
Our lack of dynamic, global events makes me wanna cry. :(	
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			Yeah, that sounds cool Vic. But a completely different thing from Kara :)	
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Challenge is only part of the equation.  The social dynamics of an 10 man team are different from a 5 man one.  20 mans are large enough that people start feeling disconnected from the social aspect.
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Oh Lord, this is so much.
 
Events, man! Events bring people in DROVES to games like this.
 
The biggest Wildstar-related let-down for this last year wasn't the population crumbling, it wasn't the attunement issues, the lack of an RP-PVP server or even the server merge.
 
The biggest bummer was them "canceling" Halloween and Christmas. Man, there was a time (a few years ago) when I'd re-sub to WoW for a month just to do Noblegarden or Children's Week, just because I love events. I know I am not the only one.
 
And yeah, those "once in a lifetime events" like Ahn Qiraj make for droves of people showing up, even if only to see what's new and what the fuss is all about.
 
Wildstar needs some of that action, man.
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*sigh*
 
Our lack of dynamic, global events makes me wanna cry. :(
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[...] changing the lock out to be loot per boss rather than instance wide [...]
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LFR confirmed :|
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I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group contentWhat would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization)
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level?
Raid-quality loot
 
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Guys, this is not about loot. This is about life constraints and social dynamics. While I agree that per-boss loot lockouts ought to be a thing, it is not going to do what LFR would do.
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[1] But they do need to understand WHY an attempt failed when it did without having to mine the combat logs for that information
[2] the instance needs to be tuned to the reflexes and gaming skills of the average player playing the base game rather than the addon-enhanced, VOIP-enabled, funky-gamer-mouse-plus-custom-macros hardcore player.
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We're talking specifically about a far easier version of the raid (and using the same mechanics present).
 
If we were discussing just a system whereby a group could automatically be queued into the existing Genetic Archives, this discussing wouldn't have gotten past page one.  The reason it has is because we're speaking now specifically about a version which would remove the difficulty from the raid under the assumption that a pickup group couldn't be held to the same standard as an actual raid group.
 
Unless your stance is that raids should just be added as a category to the group finder.
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lol, but you designed the raids :) so that you can clear it without add ons, well. it makes sense.
 
i also kind of play without add ons.
only
dps meter
and aura mastery for cooldowns
thats it.
i do have a logitech g600 though... and a good internet connection, and play in 2440res.
 
but some players; because of slower reflex, physical impairment, playing in pixel land on a laptop, with a mac mouse etc etc simply won't be able to follow... i mean, players did quit because they wiped too many times on stormtalon :D
 
geez, just try to imagine TOE KNEE in datascape...	
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There really is nothing about the way things are now that is truly a restraint as it is. Will you be racing for world first (already happened, so no), if not then it really doesn't matter if you beat a boss today or a year from now. Find a group of people that enjoy playing the game, do the attunement as it comes and start raiding slowly over time only spending a little time. Eventually, your small investment of effort would get you success and you'd be able to clear a little more of it at a time. As your group wants to speed it up you can add another hour here or there. No one is forcing you to raid 7 nights a week for 4-5 hours a night.
 
LFR as it's implemented in other games is trash - it destroys the social aspect of MMOs it cheapens raid tiers and rewards complete and utter garbage game play by being unfailable.
 
If you want to split the bosses up into individual queue-able pieces and keep the difficulty the same for people that truly don't think they can commit to a raid group in any fashion then that would be fine.
 
Lowering the difficulty so that the whole thing can be blindly ran through in random finder is fine as well, provided it doesn't make everyone "required" to do it, because it offers rewards that are above entry level gear from any other content. Which is what a lot,not all, of the LFR proponents are asking for here. As soon as the gear is better than Vet Dungeons at all it becomes a required thing for people not currently in a raid group to be able to actually raid even though it's not necessary seeing as how everything is doable now.
 
If people want tour mode, then simply fluff is all it should reward. If people want gear progression the avenue is available.
 
 
I'm all for the holiday events and even some random events throughout the world for everyone to participate in. Those suggestions are definite pluses to the MMO aspect of the game being fostered. LFR is at best an attempt to pick up strictly solo players, who really don't add that much to an MMO outside of another toon for people to see running around to be honest.
 
I simply don't want a large number of people just so I see a large number of people. Seeing them does nothing if they aren't participating in the actual MMO we are playing and are just playing their own solo game and queuing for the unsocial LFR. Sure they would be another sub and that would be great, but if it comes at the cost of making the entire game worse overall, I'd rather just log on here one day to find Wildstar shut down.	
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My favorite story on the topic is that just before beta ended, several threads popped up in which folks were complaining that we had heavily nerfed the dungeons. They had gotten so much easier, why were we nerfing them?? In fact, nothing at all had changed. However, as folks played the content, they became increasingly more familiar and comfortable with the roles and challenges presented to them--thus making it feel easier organically.
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I've totally seen this over the last year of play. I can remember STL being sooo rough, and then over time it just became easy. And it's easy for people to attribute it to gear, but I don't think it is. It's getting better at the fights. Because when I see new players come in (like my wife), I see them struggle with all the same things I used to. And then they gradually get better.
 
And I remember spending hours working on just the minibosses in GA- now we clear the first floor and a bunch of the second floor in our first night. And again, it's not all gear. I mean, we're clearing some of this stuff with 18 or 19 folks just weeks after we barely made it with 20.
 
This game does an excellent job at helping you learn if you listen to what it's telling you :)
 
Edit: also, I remember my first run through STL 20 was something like 3 hours. When I went through it on my alt, I hyped it up to my wife about how difficult it was going to be. Then we did it with a pug. I explained every pull to the other players (all who were new to the game). 45 min later we were done with only a few wipes. What a big difference just having ONE player with experience made! My wife gave me a look that I'd over hyped the thing- haha!
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Well, yes to both of those things. Raids should just be added as a category to the group finder. And there should be some raids that are designed to be puggable. 
 
Raids should be added as a category to the group finder because raids are instanced group content that was not designed to be puggable but will inevitably become so over time, just like dungeons. There's no reason I should have to go out and schedule with 19 other people or form a group by yelling on /zone or on some custom channel when there's already a queue finder to do the exact same thing.
 
Will anyone use it? Probably not with the current queue finder, which is hobbled from the start by the fact that you can't queue for more than one type of instanced content at a time. How that can have gone unfixed for as long as it has baffles me. The sheer number of people who would be happy to run ANY instanced content rather than stand around and wait for the one particular instance they might prefer to run is probably most of the playerbase. 
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Formatted the quote a bit to line up with my replies.
[1]
This is already something we work really hard to do. In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits from Wildstar's telegraph system is that it allows for exceptionally clear messaging for what would otherwise be very difficult or confusing mechanics. We always try to ensure that when a wipe occurs, you know why it occurred and what went wrong. Then, hopefully, you can look at the mistake and figure out what you can do to succeed the next time around.
 
It is on a smaller scale, but is actually something I have seen play out across multiple types of content throughout the game. My favorite story on the topic is that just before beta ended, several threads popped up in which folks were complaining that we had heavily nerfed the dungeons. They had gotten so much easier, why were we nerfing them?? In fact, nothing at all had changed. However, as folks played the content, they became increasingly more familiar and comfortable with the roles and challenges presented to them--thus making it feel easier organically.
 
[2]
I will admit that I am a somewhat biased source for this. However, you can already complete the raids without those things. Though I would suggest joining your group's voicechat server--they're free downloads and make the experience a lot more fun. I personally run virtually no addons (except a damage meter. because e-peen) and have cleared all of Genetic Archives and large portions of Datascape.
 
I feel the perception of the difficulty within especially Genetic Archives and the actual difficulty can often get lost in the shuffle for folks. If you have not tried it, please do so! It's more approachable than a lot of folks will expect. The moment you zone in your group has access to 2 bosses and 3 minibosses--and each saves your progress and none is more than 30-ish minutes away.
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Formatted the quote a bit to line up with my replies.
[1]
This is already something we work really hard to do. In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits from Wildstar's telegraph system is that it allows for exceptionally clear messaging for what would otherwise be very difficult or confusing mechanics. We always try to ensure that when a wipe occurs, you know why it occurred and what went wrong. Then, hopefully, you can look at the mistake and figure out what you can do to succeed the next time around.
 
It is on a smaller scale, but is actually something I have seen play out across multiple types of content throughout the game. My favorite story on the topic is that just before beta ended, several threads popped up in which folks were complaining that we had heavily nerfed the dungeons. They had gotten so much easier, why were we nerfing them?? In fact, nothing at all had changed. However, as folks played the content, they became increasingly more familiar and comfortable with the roles and challenges presented to them--thus making it feel easier organically.
 
[2]
I will admit that I am a somewhat biased source for this. However, you can already complete the raids without those things. Though I would suggest joining your group's voicechat server--they're free downloads and make the experience a lot more fun. I personally run virtually no addons (except a damage meter. because e-peen) and have cleared all of Genetic Archives and large portions of Datascape.
 
I feel the perception of the difficulty within especially Genetic Archives and the actual difficulty can often get lost in the shuffle for folks. If you have not tried it, please do so! It's more approachable than a lot of folks will expect. The moment you zone in your group has access to 2 bosses and 3 minibosses--and each saves your progress and none is more than 30-ish minutes away.
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geez, just try to imagine TOE KNEE in datascape...
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			Timetravel is the reason we can't like any dev posts, because he'd horde them all and taunt people in the office.	
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In the past I've had no firm opinion on LFR. It certainly watered-down WoW's raid scene (the psychological impact of this should not be devalued). At the same time, it brought more content to a majority of paying customers, and plenty of them seem to like it enough to keep going in. I personally ran it a bunch of times but quickly became bored with the walk-through difficulty and incrementally better gear rewards. I was also somewhat bothered by the general lack of communication going on, not so much because it was needed to win, but because it seemed unusual and frankly lame to be gaming an MMO with such a large number of players who didn't care enough to talk to one another.
 
 
For Wildstar, here's what I'd like to see from an LFR variant:
 
- don't reuse/rescale the encounters
- do reuse the raid environments
- do partition the raid into wings so that we're not obliged to repeat content or spend hours trying to finish a whole raid
- don't have a gear reward table
- do have a cosmetics/supplementary reward table
- do make it easy to enter (no attunement, low gear barrier... a 50 should be able to get in the raid after farming some vet adventures for drops/glory/renown, but without needing vet dungeon or raid gear)
 
In summary:
 
Rather than creating low-difficulty variants of GA/DS, reuse the GA/DS environments and populate them with new encounters (roughly between vet adventures and vet dungeons for difficulty) that focus more on training players— just like the Protogames Academy. I believe that Wildstar is capable of providing a good challenge that also trains players, even with 10-20 in the group, because of the emphasis on mobility and fairly direct mechanics like IA interrupt. So I would advise the encounters not be made as elaborate fights you need to study to win, but more like environmental challenges that will teach you what kind of mechanics to expect, and sharpen your hand-eye responses, without punishing the raid for your individual mistakes. The point of the challenge would therefore not be to win through overcoming hardcore cooperation requirements (that's normal raids), but to simply get better at understanding/reacting to simpler challenges that can still kill you.
 
Rather than rewarding us with knock-off purple gear, make the rewards mostly cosmetic/fun (mounts, pets, dyes, decor, costume pieces, crafting materials, runes, AMP/ability unlocks, chop shop vouchers... they should all be BOE as well, to facilitate trade, which gives more reason to show up and encourages socializing). These repurposed areas would then become a place for new and experienced players to sharpen their skills and trade/chat with others, without being a mandatory/feels like mandatory link in the gear progression chain, or a braindead simulacra of the GA/DS raids.
 
More feedback than you're looking for I'm sure, but I have fun with this stuff. :P
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Rather than creating low-difficulty variants of GA/DS, reuse the GA/DS environments and populate them with new encounters (roughly between vet adventures and vet dungeons for difficulty) that focus more on training players— just like the Protogames Academy. I believe that Wildstar is capable of providing a good challenge that also trains players, even with 10-20 in the group, because of the emphasis on mobility and fairly direct mechanics like IA interrupt. So I would advise the encounters not be made as elaborate fights you need to study to win, but more like environmental challenges that will teach you what kind of mechanics to expect, and sharpen your hand-eye responses, without punishing the raid for your individual mistakes. The point of the challenge would therefore not be to win through overcoming hardcore cooperation requirements (that's normal raids), but to simply get better at understanding/reacting to simpler challenges that can still kill you.
 
Rather than rewarding us with knock-off purple gear, make the rewards mostly cosmetic/fun (mounts, pets, dyes, decor, costume pieces, crafting materials, runes, AMP/ability unlocks, chop shop vouchers... they should all be BOE as well, to facilitate trade, which gives more reason to show up and encourages socializing). These repurposed areas would then become a place for new and experienced players to sharpen their skills and trade/chat with others, without being a mandatory/feels like mandatory link in the gear progression chain, or a braindead simulacra of the GA/DS raids.
 
More feedback than you're looking for I'm sure, but I have fun with this stuff. :P
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1) Wait, you're actually suggesting that people learn to do things over time and it gets easier? What a crazy idea. Seriously, though that is pretty classic that people were complaining about nerfs that you never implemented.
 
2) You mean I don't have to clear the entire raid everytime I go in? I thought that once I zoned in my account was stuck inside without the ability to log off until the entire raid was clear of any npcs. I was positive that the negative things about raiding that I've heard were 100% fact and that I'd have to never leave my PC once I joined a raid group.
 
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I think the SIM Core route might be the way to go for a LFR style raid. Put the raiders in a hallway with interactive holostations that explain the boss move set.
 
Using X-89 as an example:
 
One station would explain the bomb sizes and put the telegraph on the player so they could see it before they're at risk of wiping the raid. Another would show the telegraph and movement speed of his spew attack, and so on.
 
If they did want to modify the difficulty, they could make small bombs take two explosions to remove a floor tile. The first damages it, then the next shatters it.
 
The difficult part of scaling back Wildstar raiding mechanics is that it's not always just about damage. Failing a mechanic is designed to punish you in wildly different ways from encounter to encounter. X-89 could do 1 point of damage per hit and you'd still have raiders killing themselves or others due to the floor mechanic.	
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Formatted the quote a bit to line up with my replies.
[1]
This is already something we work really hard to do. In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits from Wildstar's telegraph system is that it allows for exceptionally clear messaging for what would otherwise be very difficult or confusing mechanics. We always try to ensure that when a wipe occurs, you know why it occurred and what went wrong. Then, hopefully, you can look at the mistake and figure out what you can do to succeed the next time around.
 
It is on a smaller scale, but is actually something I have seen play out across multiple types of content throughout the game. My favorite story on the topic is that just before beta ended, several threads popped up in which folks were complaining that we had heavily nerfed the dungeons. They had gotten so much easier, why were we nerfing them?? In fact, nothing at all had changed. However, as folks played the content, they became increasingly more familiar and comfortable with the roles and challenges presented to them--thus making it feel easier organically.
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My problem with this is that in the end raid training would actually be training your co-operation, communication, and willingness to slam your head against a boss till you have 20 people that know what to do after the strategy is formed. In the end, nothing they could do would really prepare you for raiding entirely and I don't think players looking for LFR additions (in the sense of difficulty) are truly interested one bit in raiding, they just want the content in a way they can complete it.
 
In the end though, I'm happy as long as the content doesn't cross over with raiding. I do however, see it as a waste of time to develop content meant to be facerolled for 20 players so I can see where you're coming from in re-using as much as possible.
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That's just fine that way in my opinion, any content meant to just be content for more players and not so much a "raid". 
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And how much of your game's content am I effectively excluded from without it? When you say it's not really necessary, that will come as a surprise to several of the biggest fans of the raids, who have been repeatedly proclaiming the exact opposite in this very thread. Just out of curiosity, how much of GA/DS have you completed with just the base game? No VOIP, no addons, none of your raiding partners sitting in the same room to shout things for you? Just you and the ingame text chat system to communicate as a group?
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 And if they replaced the limp gear drops with fun/cosmetics, you'd probably get more out of the run and feel less obligated to do it.
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I simply don't want a large number of people just so I see a large number of people. Seeing them does nothing if they aren't participating in the actual MMO we are playing and are just playing their own solo game and queuing for the unsocial LFR. Sure they would be another sub and that would be great, but if it comes at the cost of making the entire game worse overall, I'd rather just log on here one day to find Wildstar shut down.
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Why devs in this game are so against it? Other successful games have it, like WoW and FF14. It's a feature that brings non-raiding players back each week so that they can run it and collect the loot. It also helps players that don't raid see the actual raids. If this game wants to become successful it will need LFR/Duty Finder. You can attempt to dance around it all you want but that's the truth.
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Heck, if those cosmetics are decent, I'd feel more obligated to do it. The gear will eventually be replaced. An awesome cowboy hat with a big, silver star on it? Never. Coming. Off. Again.  :lol:
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Heck, if those cosmetics are decent, I'd feel more obligated to do it. The gear will eventually be replaced. An awesome cowboy hat with a big, silver star on it? Never. Coming. Off. Again.  :lol:
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That's just fine that way in my opinion, any content meant to just be content for more players and not so much a "raid".
 
I did System Daemons last week without any VoIP (can continue doing it easily up till gloomclaw really) and I never run any addon helpers for anything including X89, Ohmna, etc. I've also done the full run of GA without VoIP, it's not difficult really but most guilds like to socialize even when content is easy. You seem like the type that really hates raiders for some reason by the way.
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As a raid is simply "instanced 20-man content that extends through multiple phases and boss encounters", is there some reason why you expand that definition to specifically exclude anyone who isn't in a "practiced" raid group?
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Because that's been the stated design intent since... well, 2012.
 
There's nothing mechanically to stop folks from trying to run it through as a pickup group, but they don't have any room to complain or request changes that facilitate completion by their own, lower standards.
 
No football fan is going to choose to watch a sandlot football game, which includes random players of varying skill levels over an NFL game where two well-practiced teams with high skill are at the very top of their performance.
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Some of the pro LFR want a wattered down version of GA without loot, some of the pro LFR want a new content for like 10 or 15 man that prepares you for raid and its fast to do, and the anti LFR say that they wouldnt mind  if the LFR guys get a totally new content for them that grasp the feel of raid if they dont touch GA.
 
the thing is  that TT said something today in reddit and i agree with him "'Casual' raid content is not, inherently, a bad thing and is something we'd definitely like to do at some point. However, asking players to run the same space over and over on many different difficulties for progression remains something we'd very much like to avoid" 
 
we should all aggree that if they do a new  stepstone to raiding  and you can queue for it, and it doesnt need much coordination but its still dificult, and gives you preraid gear (itm lvl 61-63), and its for bigger groups that the things we have now (10,15 or even 20 man), and doing it dont trivialize GA but it shows something of the lore of that raid, and it can be done in short sessions (1 or2 bosses per time) it will be a good thing for the game.
 
- pro LFR guys will get their thing
- against LFR guys wont get his content touch (and we are getting Redmoon terror - Soon- and Initialization core -sooner- so we will have plenty of things to do, letting some guys designing raids to go to the LFR team wont hurt anyone)
- AND WE DONT HAVE A COMPANY RECICLYNG CONTENT CAUSE WE WANT NEW EXPERIENCES
 
the thing we dont want is rehash content, with just a flavor added and TT its with us in this	
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Fair enough, and glad to hear it. I like that story too. I certainly have had a much easier time leveling up the same class a second time on the other faction than I did the first time, and it's all increased comfort and familiarity with the class and the approaches to different threats. Learning the content is part of what I find fun, and part of why "go read the guide first" is a recommendation that makes me grit my teeth a bit every time someone says it. 
 
This one is--of course, just in my own personal opinion--more of a core problem in how you guys are still approaching the endgame. It's why the phrase "Hardcore!" is so appropriate for this game even now and why I wouldn't even try to get most of my friends who tried this game at launch and left to give it another chance just yet.
 
"My group's voicechat server"? What's that?
 
And how much of your game's content am I effectively excluded from without it? When you say it's not really necessary, that will come as a surprise to several of the biggest fans of the raids, who have been repeatedly proclaiming the exact opposite in this very thread. Just out of curiosity, how much of GA/DS have you completed with just the base game? No VOIP, no addons, none of your raiding partners sitting in the same room to shout things for you? Just you and the ingame text chat system to communicate as a group?
 
You do understand how much heterogeneity there is in the playerbase of any successful MMORPG, right? I might be someone who's aiming for a top raiding guild like a pro, but I might also be in a group that is just me and some chums who came with me to play the game, maybe a few people we've befriended along the way. Hell, if I'm new to MMORPGs I may not belong to a group at all.
 
My group may have 20 people in it, but only 4-5 online at any one time. It's possible that nobody in my group has put together a voicechat server before, and this game isn't going to be where someone's going to learn it. My group may not have its own website and scheduling calendar.
 
My group may have some of us who want to raid, and others who don't, but the one thing my group is likely to have is people who would rather not be in this game at all than break up the band or become Sacrificial Lamb #28 in a big raiding guild.
 
That is the subpopulation of the playerbase that tools like LFR and instances like puggable raids exist for, and it's why neither of those things is about the loot or about facerolling bosses. It's about people who simply don't care for the drama and preening and conflict that come with big guilds or performance-focused circles, who aren't going to go do a bunch of messing around with third-party apps just to play this game, and would rather not be in the game at all than have to put up being forced to do so.
 
As nice as SlyJeff is in offering to run PUG raids so LFR isn't necessary, he's not online 24/7 the way a LFR tool is. So far, this game's response to those players has been to tell them to be just fine with Adventures and Veteran Shiphands or go find some other game.
 
And so many of them have chosen the latter that I would think you'd be re-evaluating that strategy in spite of your personal biases.
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			Not understanding why you are against VoIP.	
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the thing we dont want is rehash content, with just a flavor added and TT its with us in this
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Not understanding why you are against VoIP.
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Because a lot of casuals don't use it?
Because the game doesn't provide it?
Because pugs don't just instantly have it with each other?
Because there's no universally accepted standard interface with it that everyone can just be told to use?
 
There are games that have an internal voice chat system. This game isn't one of them.
 
How is this such an alien concept to someone like you who claims to spend so much time in PUGs? I can only recall one time I was ever in a PUG where someone tried to force people into voice chat, and 3 of the people on the team would've had to install software to do it.
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Pretty much everything outside of the for some reason being against VoIP communication fits the description of the folks I began gaming with back in WoW.
 
You know what we never did? We never once went to the forums and asked for the game to change for us. We played what we enjoyed, we played through as much content as we could access, we picked up a few people along the way and eventually we started being able to do the content we'd always thought would be cool. Was it immediate? No. Were we on the cutting edge of progression? No. We did have about 10 years of the best times any of us had in gaming.
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Anyway, I did want to clear up for you that I'm not against LFR. I'm not even really that much against an EZ Mode GA as long as people aren't compelled to run it before doing the real thing. However, I think it would be better for the game to offer something new, possibly related, to fill that space.
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			Please no LFR.  Buck up and play the instances as they are made.  Sure they are hard but that's what raiding is meant to be.  Implementing this will most certainly mean the end of the few raiding guilds left.  I would suggest however an option to save your progress in say DS as it is such a  large instance it'd be nice to have the choice to forgo loot and start from where we left off the previous week if we wanted to.	
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The desire to see LFR versions of Raids added to the game - NOT to replace actual Raiding - is the result of wanting to enhance our gaming experience in a situation where we simply cannot accommodate someone else's schedule on a weekly basis.  I get tired of doing dailies, Vets, and Shiphands all the time, anything I can do to help "shake things up a bit" is always a welcome addition.  I'm not worried about gear progression so much as I would just like to increase the variety of content I have available to experience.
 
This doesn't just work for me, but it works for opponents of the idea too.  Obviously, your actual Raids take some time to prepare, and most guilds don't seem to Raid more than once or twice a week.  Well, on your off days when your guild isn't available to Raid and either you don't feel like grinding your dailies that night, running Vets, or whatever because you're feeling that "large group content" itch, you can just que up and run a quick LFR version of the raid just for some S&G's :)
 
The addition, again NOT a replacement for Raids, but ADDITION of available content really is a Win/Win for all parties involved.
 
Think about it, you will still have your normal Raid Schedule, with your normal crew of people plus there exists the potential that doing LFR could also "wet someone's appetite" for Raiding and they may even join you, when perhaps they might not have been interested before!
 
Not only that, but having "practiced" the PuG-able version of the Raid may actually bring them into the fold with a bit more insight than say someone who is brand new to the Raiding scene, so the amount of time (and possible frustration) that you have to spend teaching them the ropes should be less than it otherwise would have been.
 
And let's face facts, I've never heard anyone ever say "Sorry guys, I can't Raid tonight, I've gotta do my LFR runs instead..."  <- That just doesn't happen (unless the person who said it had some sort of a stroke, know what I mean?).
 
At the end of the day, adding LFR is simply giving YOU, the customer, yet a wider variety of (but still COMPLETELY OPTIONAL) content for you to enjoy, or to simply ignore if you're just not interested in that particular activity.  Hey, some people like tackle football, some prefer flag football, right?	
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Please no LFR.  Buck up and play the instances as they are made.  Sure they are hard but that's what raiding is meant to be.  Implementing this will most certainly mean the end of the few raiding guilds left.
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