Superfans/The Highs and Lows of the Comics Industry

John and Debbie talk about the history of comic books.
== Video ==
The intro plays.
* John: Welcome to Superfans, my name is John Townsend and this is my friend Debbie Rhodes, say hi Debbie.
* Debbie: Hi, Debbie.
* John: ...Walked right into that one. So, do you wanna explain what this is or should I?
* Debbie: You go.
* John: Alright, well, this is a new channel that we've decided to make. Well... more me than her cause I'm a comics guy and she's pretty new to this whole thing.
* Debbie: Yeah, I've only really read a handful.
* John: And this channel will basically be me explaining comic stuff, reviewing comics, and recapping stuff to both her and to you, the audience. Hopefully in an etertaining way. And, for the starter video, I decided that I should probably break down what comics are... about, even, and why you should care. Also, just for the record, this is both of our first time being on camera, so sorry if we sound awkward at all. So, Debbie, tell me, what do you know about the comic industry and its history?
* Debbie: I know that they existed since the 30s or something and they kept going on to this day. I also think that Marvel and DC rebooted a few times?
* John: Oh my dear Debbie, so close yet so far at the same time. 
* Debbie: Figured you were going to say something like that.
* John: Okay, so, basically, uh... Starting from the super, super beginning, before there were comics there were adventure strips. Right?
* Debbie: Adventure strips...?
* John: Yeah, basically, adventure strips were newspaper strips that were bigger and had a continous story. And by bigger, I mean physically larger, they had more panels. Some of them were, like, Flash Gordon, The Phantom, all those guys. You know those guys, right?
* Debbie: I heard of Flash Gordon, no idea what his deal is. Hey, is Garfield an adventure strip?
* John: No, Garfield is not an adventure strip. He is a newspaper strip but newspaper strips and adventure strips are different beasts.
* Debbie: Oh. I see. Continue on then John.
* John: So, the people of the... uh... I wanna say late 20s or so, they loved these adventure strips. The only problem though is that they wanted to reread them and there wasn't a clear way of doing that. Newspapers don't have reruns, so how would they reread their stories or read the stories they missed?
* Debbie: Couldn't they just reprint it?
* John: Yeah, but... I don't have a but, I don't know why they didn't do that.
* Debbie: The host doesn't know something about the topic, we're off to a great start.
* John: Shut up. But, either way, that eventually led to proto comics. Comics that were basically booklets with reprinted adventure strips inside and even some gag a day strips. Every so often there was an original story just to hold people over, but there was never a full-on original character made for these comic books, as they were called.
* Debbie: Then Superman, right?
* John: Exactly. But before that, there was National Comics, a publisher whose boss had the idea of maybe creating original properties for comic books, which he saw as a rising medium. So, he took a chance on these two, struggling Jewish boys called Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. They were an artist/writer combo, but they struggled to get work because of their inexperience and because of their faith and ethnicity.
* Debbie: Jesus...
* John: Yeah, the 1930s were pretty messed up... But, uh, see, Siegel and Shuster a couple years earlier had made this story called The Reign of The Superman.
* Debbie: And they pitched it to National?
* John: No, The Reign of The Superman was actually a sci-fi short story printed in a totally different magazine. The Superman in that story was a telekinetic villain with dreams of world domination.
* Debbie: What...?
* John: Yeah, weird, right?
* Debbie: At least Batman was completely normal right?
* John: Ummm, you'll see.
* Debbie: That's not reassuring.
* John: Continuing on, yea the Reign of The Superman was published for Science Fiction: The Advanced Guard of Future Civilization.
* Debbie: I wonder why it didn't take off.
* John: Cause it was the magazine didn't sell well.
* Debbie: Yeah, that makes sense.
* John: But, anyway, Siegel and Shuster went to the boss of National at the time, a guy called Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson who, fun fact, was a Major in World War I.
* Debbie: And he became a comic publisher?
* John: Yeah, I dunno what led him down that career path... But, like I said, he took a chance on these two, very young Jewish boys and he printed their story. They were inspired by all the stuff they loved, like Flash Gordon, John Carter of Mars, and they were even inspired by mythological heroes like Samson from the Bible and Hercules. So, throwing it all together, they made their new version of Superman, who was Clark Kent, the last son of the planet Krypton. They originally wanted it to be an adventure strip but, after they were rejected, they decide to take a chance on National and got it printed...
He pulls out a copy of Action Comics No. 1.
* John: In this.
* Debbie: Oh my god, you have that!?
* John: No, it's a reprint. I just wanted to mess with you.
* Debbie: I almost thought you were cool.
* John: I am cool! Just not that cool! Nick Cage has one of these.
* Debbie: What?
* John: No, really, Nick Cage has one of these, look it up.
* Debbie: Why?
* John: I dunno, Nick Cage is a crazy person.
* Debbie: I mean he did star in the Wicker Man so...
* John: Alright moving on, guess what happens after Action Comics No. 1.
* Debbie: It blew up and birthed the comics industry?
* John: Bingo. Everybody wanted in and everybody wanted their own Superman. That led to stuff like obvious knock-offs like Wonder Man, published by Fox Features, and people who I'd argue were just inspired by him, like Captain Marvel over at Fawcett Comics. National didn't care though, they sued the crap out of everybody that even sneezed in the direction of Superman. That's how big of a deal he was. Like, you know how Disney will sue people over Mickey Mouse? Superman was the Mickey Mouse of his time.
* Debbie: "Superman was the Mickey Mouse of his time"...
* John: Look, if you can give me a less weird example then I'll use it.
* Debbie: So when does Batman get involved? Cause isn't he like even more popular than Superman?
* John: Well... debatably, but he definitely wasn't back then.
* Debbie: Oh.
* John: Yeah, Superman was, like, THE superhero. But Batman was, by the way I just realized this video's probably gonna be an hour or so long, anyway, Batman was made because National wanted another big hit. They wanted somebody just as popular as Superman.
* Debbie: That's...
* John: Insane? Yes, it was. Which is why the guy they tasked with it, Bob Kane, wasn't up to snuff. He made this.
John shows a picture of the original concept art for Batman.
* Debbie: Oh my god.
* John: Yeah, it's pretty bad. And the guy he pitched it to, the writer Bill Finger, agreed. Something you need to know is that Bob Kane was... not great at... most things. He stole story ideas and swiped his art.
* Debbie: Swiped?
* John: Stole. He traced over other people's art and drew Batman over it.
* Debbie: So Bob Kane is a hack?
* John: Basically. So Bill Finger saw Bob Kane's concept and did some reworking to make him somewhat resemble the hero we know today. But guess who took all the credit.
* Debbie: Bob Kane.
* John: Exactly. But, either way, National got what they wanted. They had a big hero who rivaled Superman and he debuted in the one and only Detective Comics issue 27. And Batman was sort of the point when things... exploded. Like, everybody wanted their own Superman, but now everybody wanted their own superheroes in general. Superheroes were beloved, everybody loved those weirdos in tights that beat up criminals and Nazis. And, since I think the question will come up eventually, Wonder Woman was actually a later addition, debuting after a bunch of other heroes. She was made so little girls had a hero to look up to.
* Debbie: Aw.
* John: It's about to get weird.
* Debbie: Oh.
* John: Cause the guy who made her, William Moulton Marston was... a character. He knew that boys bought comics the most and that a woman on the cover wouldn't get them to buy, so... he started putting Wonder Woman in bondage.
Debbie has no response.
* John: You good?
* Debbie: How did... they let that pass?
* John: It was the 30s, nobody knew about this stuff. They thought it was just the hero being put into danger, they didn't realize what the hell was actually happening. And, also, just to get it out of the way cause I know people will get upset if I don't mention it, yes. William Moulton Marston was also a polygamist and he was married to two women, both of whom had children to him.
* Debbie: So William was really kinky?
* John: Basically. And that bled into the comics in a few ways. But that is a story for another video or few. Anyways, National wasn't the only people publishing comics around this time.
* Debbie: Marvel?
* John: Yeah, but they were known at the time as Timely Comics. Founded by Martin Goodman, their biggest heroes were the Human Torch and Namor.
* Debbie: Okay, I do know that it's not the Human Torch that most people know about.
* John: Yeah, he was an android who existed way before the Fantastic Four. And, well, since Namor and Human Torch were their biggest stars, Timely thought it would be a great idea if they crossed over. So, they had their artists crunch like hell to have 22 pages ready by the end of the week.
* Debbie: Oh my god, why would they do that?
* John: Something you should note is that the comic industry has some weird standards. But, they did it. They had their 22 page spectacle where fire and water clashed for the first time. And that birthed the idea of a shared universe of superheroes. Suddenly, everybody was meeting everybody else. Batman met Superman, Wonder Woman met Batman, so on and so forth until one day National had this insane idea. What if they took their most popular heroes and put them into the same comic? So, they scooped up guys like The Sandman, Doctor Fate, Spectre, Hawkman, guys like that and put them all in a team they called the Justice Society, the first superhero team in the world.
* Debbie: ...No Superman or Batman?
* John: Weird story, actually, they were on the team but for ages they weren't allowed to be printed on the covers because the editors said so, worried readers would be confused. It took higher ups telling them to do it to just cave and agree.
* Debbie: I realized you said the Justice Society and not the Justice League.
* John: Yeah, the name Justice League didn't come until like thirty years later. Anyway, things were great, but... there is something I'd feel bad for glossing over. Siegel and Shuster were sort of... taken advantage of by National. They sold the rights to Superman to them, thinking it was how the business worked, and they eventually got kicked off of the comic cause they wanted the rights back. Now, who was in the right here is a debated subject, but I'm a big supporter of creator's rights, so I'd argue that Siegel and Shuster had every right to be angry.
* Debbie: What happened to them?
* John: That's... sort of another story all together, but Shuster eventually worked on this erotic horror comic.
* Debbie: Erotic... horror... comic...
* John: Yeah, I know. But, it almost feels like Siegel and Shuster got their revenge via the butterfly effect, cause that horror comic was eventually bought by this group of... really disturbed teenagers. I won't get into what they did cause I don't know enough, but they did a lot of bad stuff. And, while in jail, a man called Fredric Wertham visited them. He was a child psychologist and a big civil rights activist who opposed segregation in schools and opened up a lot of clinics to help at risk kids.
* Debbie: Sounds like a good guy.
* John: He was. And he's also the main villain of the comic book industry.
* Debbie: Wait, but if he did all this great stuff, then why do people not like him...?
* John: Well, you see, these kids told him that they read Shuster's comic. And it was a... really messed up comic, even by now's standards. So, Wertham, like a lot of people do even now, connected dots were nonexistent and blamed the comics for the things these kids did. So guess what he did.
* Debbie: He sued the comic companies?
* John: Worse. He published a book called Seduction of The Innocent, where he systematically blamed comic books for every horrible thing kids had done. He called Superman a fascist, claimed Wonder Woman went against the archetypical woman, and called Batman and Robin gay. Those last two being pretty big no-nos at the time.
* Debbie: Isn't Robin a little boy...?
* John: Yeah, but I really doubt Wertham actually read comic books so I don't think he knew that. All he saw was a man running around with another man with bare legs and who lived in the same house. And the worst part is that people bought into it. They genuinely believed that comic books corrupted their kids and turned them into criminals. They had goddamn book burnings for comics and the sales for horror comics dropped immensely, and horror comics were the industry's bread and butter, so they had basically just had their feet cut off and forced to crawl around in search for a way to survive.
* Debbie: Dark.
* John: Yeah, I might be getting a little too passionate about this... But there was a solution. Kinda. The Comics Code Authority. It was made to self-regulate comics and it kind of ruined the comics industry.
* Debbie: How?
* John: You know those horror comics?
* Debbie: Yeah. I do.
* John: Gone.
* Debbie: What?
* John: Can't be printed anymore. The Comics Code said so. No werewolves, vampires, undead, you can't even put the word "horror" in your comic's name.
* Debbie: ...Then what can you print?
* John: Sci-fi, westerns, and maybe superheroes if you handle it right. Though the only superheroes that survived this era were Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. The rest got the boot. For the entie 50s, nobody was buying superhero comics though. Nobody cared enough.
* Debbie: How did they survive?
* John: Barely. They scraped by using sci-fi, romance, and western stories. They even converted their superheroes to be more like that. They rebooted The Flash, Green Lantern, all those guys to make them more sci-fi. And it was WEIRD. Like, really damn weird. Superman was sneezing galaxies out of existence, Batman was fighting space aliens, The Flash had a villain whose only power was that he made him fat, stuff like that. That's what happens when you're under the Comics Code, you scrape the bottom of the barrel and just toss whatever slop you find on to the page.
* Debbie: H-how did comics get out of this. Like how did this not kill comics?
* John: You can thank our pals at Marvel Comics.
* Debbie: Huh?!
* John: Specifically, then up and coming writer Stan Lee and the artist Steve Ditko. See, Lee had different ideas for how comics should function. He wanted to make a hero who had problems that he dealt with, who was younger than any other hero at the time, and he wanted to base him on a spider.
* Debbie: Why're you acting like I don't know this is Spider-Man?
* John: I... don't know... Yes, it was Spider-Man. And he was a super big deal. Cause, at least according to the publisher he pitched it to, heroes were meant to be looked up to, not related to, that kids could only be side-kicks, and according to him, "nobody likes spiders". He hated everything about it. Point A to point Z. So much so that when he agreed to publish it, he published it in Amazing Fantasy, a book with horrible sales that nobody was reading and that was going to be cancelled after that issue was published.
* Debbie: But...?
* John: They loved it. Amazing Fantasy 15, the debut of Spider-Man, was so beloved that the publisher was forced to eat his own words. So, Spider-Man was allowed to keep going. And, in fact, Spider-Man was so popular that they still cancelled Amazing Fantasy but gave him his own self-titled comic. "The Amazing Spider-Man". Finally, for once in nearly a decade, the industry realized how profitable superheroes could be. So, again, more and more heroes were popping up. And over in Marvel, Stan took his attitude with Spider-Man to all of the other heroes.
* Debbie: What attitude?
* John: That they should be different. That they should be related to, not looked up to. So, he made the Fantastic Four, a team of heroes who would argue and fight with each other, The Hulk, a guy who hated being a superhero and wanted to cure his powers, Thor, who back then was a guy with a lamb leg that only turned into Thor with the hammer, and Iron Man, a weapons manufacturer who couldn't live without his technology. And that last one's a super big deal cause Vietnam was going on and the people hated weapons manufacturers, but Iron Man was so well written that people didn't even care.
* Debbie: Oh I see. How did they get around the Comics Code Authority?
* John: Simple, they just didn't listen to them. Marvel realized that they didn't have to listen to the Comics Code Authority. And it paid off.
* Debbie: So all of these companies were scared of something they didn't even have to listen to?
* John: Pretty much. Marvel even made a comic without Code approval. The actual goddamn government paid Stan Lee to write a story against drugs, so in one issue of Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Man saved a druggie who was so doped up he thought he could fly. But the Code disapproved, their rules stated clearly that you weren't allowed to publish any kind of drug use in a comic. So, Marvel decided to just publish it without Code approval. And, believe it or not, it sold just as well. So, Marvel just... stopped.
* Debbie: They just stopped? After nearly a decade, they just stopped?
* John: I know, right? That led to them being allowed to make more mature storylines and the Code even revised itself to allow stories like that. Well... Marvel told more mature stories, DC kinda was still spooked all the way until the 70s.
* Debbie: What happened in the 70s?
* John: Roy Harper did heroin.
* Debbie: ...Uh.
* John: Surprisingly long story, I'll talk about it some other time.
* Debbie: I'm scared to ask what else happened.
* John: Black Manta killed a baby.
* Debbie: Oh... Oh... god... Okay, we should probably move on. What's after the Comics Code?
* John: The 70s and that's when Marvel got a golden idea. Take all of their heroes and put them in a comic.
* Debbie: Isn't that just the Avengers?
* John: No, actually. This was meant to feature a bunch of Marvel heroes just... duking it out. The story was called Contest of Champions and it's often sited as the first ever event mini-series. It didn't include tie-in issues though, which would eventually become a staple of the event comic. It's also considered a lot less important than the two other event comics that followed it.
* Debbie: Crisis on Infinite Earths and...?
* John: Secret Wars. Also, fun fact, Secret Wars came first but Crisis on Infinite Earths is considered the first true event comic since it was being made first even if Secret Wars got published before it.
* Debbie: And they're both about huge team-ups against a cosmic entity, right?
* John: Kinda. Secret Wars was about an army of heroes fighting an army of villains on this thing called Battleworld for a being called Beyonder, who wanted to judge if good or evil was superior. Infinite Earths though was about heroes and villains teaming up to fight an even bigger threat, the Anti-Monitor, who was slowly wiping out the multiverse. Infinite Earths, in my opinion, is the superior story and is more notable because it led to a wide-scale reboot of the DC universe, completely erasing the multiverse from existence and leaving one planet standing.
* Debbie: And that's DC's fist reboot.
* John: Yup. Also, just for note, Marvel has actually never rebooted. DC has rebooted a handful of times, the amount changing depending on who you ask, but Marvel has continued on ever since the very beginning which means every single thing they have ever published within the Marvel Universe is still canon. And that even includes tie-ins that were placed in the universe. Meaning that, canonically, Godzilla and Conan are a part of Marvel.
* Debbie: Yeah, I know about that. Transformers too, right?
* John: Transformers was later retconned to be on a parallel world.
* Debbie: Why?
* John: I don't know.
* Debbie: Did anything else big happen?
* John: DC was still scared of the Comics Authority but wanted to make more mature stories. So they crafted the Vertigo imprint to do that. Comics like Swamp Thing, Constantine, Sandman flooded the Vertigo landscape.
* Debbie: So DC made an imprint just to avoid the Comics Authority code?
* John: I know, right? Also, just for the record, most of those stories I just listed actually started as regular DC but were moved over to Vertigo after it was founded. But this... does lead me into another topic. See, Marvel is often credited with starting the Bronze Age with the death of Gwen Stacy. Because after Gwen died, darker and darker storylines flooded in. And it was... getting kind of ridiculous. This is often called the Dark Age. Not because it was bad, but because everybody wanted to be as edgy as possible.
* Debbie: Ow, the edge.
* John: Exactly. Like, stuff was happening like heroes who were barely heroes were popping up, gun-toating vigilantes were the norm, all that stuff. And it could all be traced back to three stories. The Night Gwen Stacy Died, The Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. Because all people took from those stories was "they're dark, that's why they're popular." Do you know who Spawn is?
* Debbie: Heard of him.
* John: Spawn showed up in this era. That's how dark and edgy this era was. In the words of the Marvel Year-End Review, 1993 was the year that Superman died and Venom got his own series. Have you heard of Bluud Gun?
* Debbie: No, what company published that?
* John: None. It's a fake comic that is used as a joke to make fun of how edgy the 90s was. 
* Debbie: So the 90s was just non stop edge?
* John: Yes, exactly. And that's not even the worst of it. See, the old comics from the Golden Age were starting to sell for billions. You know, Action Comics Number 1 and the like. And the industry wanted to have that billions, so they began marketing number ones as collector's items, they did gimmicky bullshit like holographic covers, 3D pages, there was even a while when everybody wanted black and white comics for some reason. And all of it came back to bite them and the comic industry crashed.
* Debbie: What do you mean crashed?
* John: I mean, that DC wasn't selling well and Marvel filed for bankruptcy.
* Debbie: Jesus Christ.
* John: Yeah, nobody was buying comics anymore. Nobody cared enough. Marvel would eventually bounce back, but barely.
* Debbie: How did they survive this one?
* John: Not well. They had a lot of good stories during this time, but they were nowhere near the big deals they were before. But then there was a saving grace. Can you guess what that saving grace was?
* Debbie: Uh... Hm... Some comic blew up?
* John: Close. Iron Man came out. And when Iron Man came out, Marvel had only just started a new era of their universe, beginning with Civil War. So readers had a jumping on point. Really, the stars aligned. And, I know that a lot of people have problems with the MCU, but you can't deny it. The MCU saved comic books.
* Debbie: I mean I like the MCU. So it's nice to see that saved comics. 
* John: I feel there is one last thing we might need to talk about. In 2012, Geoff Johns dropped a comic named Flashpoint designed to lead to the New 52 which was meant to simplify the DC universe by rebooting it again.
* Debbie: Did it work?
* John: No. It failed. Spectacularly.
* Debbie: Uh...
* John: I mean... The stories were fine for the most part, but it was just... I dunno, man, nobody felt right. Amanda Waller became skinny in it, for some reason... I don't know, it wasn't my thing. I think the New 52 deserves its own video some day. Rebirth came out and that was pretty good though.
* Debbie: Rebirth...?
* John: It... I don't think I have time to talk about Rebirth.
* Debbie: Anything else?
* John: Hm... Nope. Don't think so.
* Debbie: What're comics like today?
* John: ...We should end the video.
* Debbie: What? Why?
* John: Cause I have a lot of opinions on that and I don't wanna get in trouble in our first video.
* Debbie: I see, welp that was fun. Now I probably know way more about the history of comics than I probably needed to. So ummm see you next week?
*John: Well, when you phrase it like that, this whole thing sounds nerdy and pointless.
Debbie stares at him.
* John: ...Debbie?
The video ends without Debbie replying.