105497-attunement-killed-end-game-original-post-here-page-2

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Attunement is a guild killer.  Majority of players get the silver and then never want to step foot in it again because the gear is bad and because it's just not that fun to be timed and stressing to do it as fast and clean as possible.
 
This ends up with like 5-8 people getting attuned because they always ran together or something and then they just burn out or don't want to go back and help the other 15 or so people get attuned.  This means the other 15 or whatever are usually having to learn on their own, slowing down progress etc etc etc.
 
It's cool and kind of old school feeling and all but like...I just want to raid already haha.  My guild is starting to falter on dedication to running dungeons for everyone.	
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			WoW's problem isn't lack of challenging content. It is the lack of consistent updates for challenging content. Heroic Garrosh will be year old content soon. If they updated with a new raid every 2-3 months within this year, I doubt anyone would be complaining except that "We didn't even clear the raid from the previous month!".	
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Attunement is a guild killer.  Majority of players get the silver and then never want to step foot in it again because the gear is bad and because it's just not that fun to be timed and stressing to do it as fast and clean as possible.
 
This ends up with like 5-8 people getting attuned because they always ran together or something and then they just burn out or don't want to go back and help the other 15 or so people get attuned.  This means the other 15 or whatever are usually having to learn on their own, slowing down progress etc etc etc.
 
It's cool and kind of old school feeling and all but like...I just want to raid already haha.  My guild is starting to falter on dedication to running dungeons for everyone.
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Uh, you don't get the point at all do you? Try following the entire conversation.
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Would it help any if the dungeon gear had a cool, cohesive art set for each class? LIke one for blue, and a second for epic?
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I see what you did there!
 
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Would it help any if the dungeon gear had a cool, cohesive art set for each class? LIke one for blue, and a second for epic?
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WoW's probably isn't lack of challenging content. It is the lack of consistent updates for challenging content. Heroic Garrosh will be year old content soon. If they updated with a new raid every 2-3 months within this year, I doubt anyone would be complaining except that "We didn't even clear the raid from the previous month!".
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Actually, you do get away with that in Wildstar. Heroic Garrosh also wasn't even the most challenging content released in MoP and that entire raid is as challenging as GA. It is silly to say that "Heroic WoW raiders can't clear any content" when the ONLY people clearing content in this game are heroic WoW raiders.
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And, let's face it, a lot of people said they wanted harder PVE content, but definitely did not mean it.
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			People are so hell-bent on branding WoW as casual-scrub-farmville land - where welfare epics drop from the sky and endgame bosses fall over from a light breeze - that they can't even call 25 man heroic raiding "hard". This is like conservapedia levels of rewriting history.	
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Uh, you don't get the point at all do you? Try following the entire conversation.
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Guilds that have been raiding for years together (mine since Kara) are familiar enough with their characters, the game, mechanics, etc to make what is objectively difficult progression content (like Heroic SoO) seem comparatively easier than the first raid in a different game with significant differences in mechanics, classes, etc. It is just the lastest fashion to criticize Heroic WoW raiding as easy - often by players who didn't clear the content in the days/weeks after the criticized content was released. Familiarity, guides, experience, etc create a fiction that Heroic WoW encounters are easy mode while unfamiliarity, lack of experience, and relative disparity of resources (guides, addons, etc) make a brand new raid in a brand new game seem more difficult than it objectively is.
 
Corner some of those WoW vets who cleared GA a month ago and ask them - when they stop and think about it and make a considered comparison, they will concur.
 
If I'd been raiding in Wildstar for 10 years and knew the game, classes, mechanics, etc intimately and comprehensively, raided with my team (some members anyway) for that long, and all of the sudden we got dropped into Heroic SoO having never played that game, I'd be calling that raid the more difficult one.
 
All just a matter of perspective I guess.
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He was on your side lol
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Hardcore forum PvP involves PKing.
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 ALL of the likes.
 
I think if there was another reason to collect that gear, such as vanity, it would increase traffic and persistence. The class sets in level 60 WoW were pretty significant, especially with the first 59 levels looking as generally bad as levelling in Wildstar. Wildstar does have MANY more options and much more flexibility right out the gate. WoW had some atrocious skins, especially leather.
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People are so hell-bent on branding WoW as casual-scrub-farmville land - where welfare epics drop from the sky and endgame bosses fall over from a light breeze - that they can't even call 25 man heroic raiding "hard". This is like conservapedia levels of rewriting history.
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Why is saying that you think Wildstar is harder than WoW suddenly saying WoW is easy?
 
Have you played any non-MMORPGs lately?  Do you know what the state of games are?
 
Outside of Demon/Dark Souls, single player video games come in two forms:  PVPcentric FPS and Interactive Movies.
 
Compared to that, WoWs heroic raiding is Ikaruga.  The discrepancy between WoW heroic raiding and Wildstar raiding is infinitesimal compared to that gulf.
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Why is saying that you think Wildstar is harder than WoW suddenly saying WoW is easy?
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I've 1cced Ikaruga on Hard (*´∀｀*) Fun game, would recommend to everyone 10/10. That one boss fight in Trial of the Crusader was literally Ikaruga with all the little black and white bullets too, really fun.
 
You forgot the other form of single player games. Mobile phone games ~lol~
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It's not, I was referring to statements such as these:
 
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link to Steam profile or didn't happen
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People are so hell-bent on branding WoW as casual-scrub-farmville land - where welfare epics drop from the sky and endgame bosses fall over from a light breeze - that they can't even call 25 man heroic raiding "hard". This is like conservapedia levels of rewriting history.
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But you would ignore him then.
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Reading comprehension is a wonderful skill to have. I like RP. I don't like people outright dismissing others' opinion because it conflicts with theirs without even trying to hold a mature discussion. VicVanMeter and I disagree on probably everything there is to disagree about and yet I will always respect him because he puts effort into his posts and keeps his tone respectful during arguments.
 
You can be polite while writing in third person and using broken grammar. Sadly some people are so blinded by their love for the game, which love sometimes borders on fanatism, that they are no longer capable of holding a meaningful discussion and usually revert to "I don't experience the issues you have listed. Probably you're the problem. Also, here's a screenshot of my character to make this comment seem more witty than it actually is." in their very first post. That's not helpful.
 
Those posts aren't criticized because the individuals in question live vicariously through their virtual personas. They are criticized because the individuals in question resort to name calling and petty insults as soon as someone disagrees with them.
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And all those epics that apparently are lying all over the ground (not really) is a reason why that other popular game has still 10 years later 8+ mill subs?
 
Recipe for continued success...
 
Or destined to ultimately fail...
 
Judging by all the wrecks on the side of the MMO road, I think I know the answer.	
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And all those epics that apparently that are lying all over the ground is a small reason why that game has still, 10 years later 8+ mill subs?
 
Recipe for success...
 
Or road to ruin.
 
Judging by all the wrecks on the side of the MMO road, I think I know the answer.
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Ugh and here comes the horrible analogies...please stop. No really, STOP. Thanks!
 
I think WS can improve but they have to drop this HC or gtfo design and open it up a bit imo.
 
Well, unless they desire to be a niche MMO with low subs then full steam ahead!	
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			Make some friends, get a guild, even a casual one, it helps a lot ;)	
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I still can't wrap my head around this complaint. People want attunement removed so they can jump right into raiding but I don't think they understand how much a step up from dungeons that raids are in difficulty here. If attunement was removed, you know what posts we'd see? "NERF GENETIC ARCHIVES!"
 
Yes attunement is a timesink and a gate, but people do get better quality gear out of running things multiple times while at the same time, likely improving their game. Also, anecdotally speaking, either I've been insanely lucky or its not that hard to get silver even in PUGs. 	
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Still, I appreciate the complements.  If it's worth anything, I've never even noticed we disagree on a lot, we simply seem to have a different mindset.  Honestly, 90% of the forum posters agree on almost everything, we're only fighting over the 10% of gristle like sharks when we should probably, in a more unified way, be focusing on the 90% of things we agree about, whether it's the things we almost universally love and want to stay in the game or the 90% of things we think need changed.
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Our disagreements are mild in nature but it's undeniable that we do have a different mindset. I don't think this is an issue though as we are capable of both offering and refuting arguments without being at each other's throats. From what I've gathered from your posts you seem to be an achiever who seeks challenges and thinks that the players should adapt to the game. Which means our goals and vision will often clash as I'm a socializer who seeks communities and thinks that the game should adapt to the players. Not that the two are mutually exclusive per se but for an equilibrium to happen both sides would have to suffer losses.
 
WoW was close to hitting jackpot in the end of TBC and the beginning of WOTLK but ultimately missed the mark. That being said, it still comes the closest to appeasing all sorts of players and the subscription numbers reflect that but it's in a state of nosedive. An incredibly slow one but still a nosedive. When Carbine marketed this game as "WoW done right." and the developers kept emphasizing that they wish for all player types to feel at home in WildStar, I was hoping that they will hit the bullseye and indeed do what WoW in the end failed to do.
 
If any of you ever look through my older posts, especially the ones made during beta, you'll see that I was extremely hopeful regarding WildStar and defended even the most odd design decisions as I figured that while an idea can sound lackluster on paper, Carbine might just implement it in a sensible way. Just as I don't criticize a book or movie before seeing it, I didn't want to criticize those design decisions before seeing them in action. After all, many of the employees have worked on big and successful titles before and I'm not only refering to WoW. Well, it has been two months and I was wrong on several counts. I've seen those design decisions in action and have also seen their conseqences that may or may not have been intended.
 
Now I come to these forums and try to offer criticism, offer suggestions, have discussions about the former two and hope that at least some of it is seen by the higher-ups. I'll keep subscribing to the game. Heck, I'll probably throw down twenty dollars next month for CREDD. It's a good game after all but one that I feel is spoiled by indecision and internal conflict. Half of the features and patches seem to contradict the other half. No one is really sure who the game is intended for. Players are getting mixed signals as they tread the different kinds of content.
 
I could unsubscribe and leave without a word. But foolish as that may be, I do believe Seuss' words.
 
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
 
That's why I'm cross with people both on this forum and in real life who wish to silence those who disagrees with them. Nothing ever got better by people keeping their pieholes shut and politely nodding along. Not all feedback will be as useful as something given by a professional critic. There will be comments with outlandish claims of both negative and positive nature but they're feedback nonetheless. Obviously comments like yours will always be more appreciated because they're detailed, well thought-out and delivered through an easily navigable structure. Not everyone can produce such a text however and that shouldn't make their opinion worthless.
 
If an opening post is explicitly aimed at hurling personal insults at the developers or the members of this community then it has no legitimacy and should be locked down or better yet, deleted. But very few threads begin like that. A lot of them do end like it though after some over-enthusiastic (over-zealous?) players flock to them and declare that the OP's points are null and void without giving it a second thought, let alone trying to refute some of those points. That's not how you build a community. That's not how you convince people that it's worth staying around.
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WoW was close to hitting jackpot in the end of TBC and the beginning of WOTLK but ultimately missed the mark.
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Blizzard systematically destroyed the game through accessibility. Over time, as users became acclimated to accessibility, they demanded more accessibility. Accessibility is not a bad thing, but it tears people apart and makes them rely more on popup windows and checkboxes, and less on each other.
 
It poisons an MMO very slowly by eroding the links between individual players, because they no longer need to interact with each other to accomplish in-game goals.
 
In the very very early days of Vanilla, there were amazing server communities. The first blow was cross-realm PVP, because then you no longer saw people from the other faction consistently in PVP. That's how rivalries were formed, and it gave a strong sense of crossfaction community which was weakened by crossrealm PVP. 
 
The second blow was the dungeon finder. It is a fantastic feature but that was the decisive blow to server communities, which all but ceased to exist afterwards. Why bother trying to put together groups for hours when you can just click a button and go along doing whatever you want until your instance is ready? It's an awful temptation, one that most people can't resist.
 
The third blow was of course the raid finder. This wasn't even the last nail in the coffin, this was just an execution of whatever remained of server communities. Now you don't even need to join a guild to see raid content. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
This post got a littttttttle heavy, sorry. But it's just the truth about how Blizzard sacrificed communities and human connections for accessibility and ease of use. 
 
I think it is great that Carbine has encouraged people to group up and rely on each other for difficult content in this game. But I am afraid that Blizzard has socially engineered MMO gamers more than anyone ever realized, and they no longer take kindly to being forced to reach out to each other, rather than clicking a button to get dropped in a queue.
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You may have thought WotLK was bad but don't agree with that: I played beta up to that point and thought that particular expansion was by far the best of them all. I believe they peaked their most subs during that so perhaps it wasn't so bad as some you claim it was. In that expansion I was able to gear up my main and my alts which prior to that was next to impossible. PvP was also super fun and fairly balanced (imo). Also due to allowing alts to gear up.....when my main had raid lockouts...I could use my alts to help the second and third raids progress.
 
Then they went back to HC mentality at the beginning of cata which lead to my cancellation; millions followed so it was not just me. I heard they eased up after but I refused to go back. I did go back in the panda expansion but my faction had died completely (only person in org) and I just didn't want to pay the 240+ to move all my characters to a new server nor throw out 7+ years of blood, sweat, and tears to re-roll. However, at this time I am seriously considering paying that transfer bill to rejoin friends that still play. I got a few them to try out WS and they all quit. :(
 
In the end, I much prefer an accessible mmo rather than one that is not so I guess WS is just not for me. It's a pity; I love the combat, the graphics are stylish and pleasing, the setting is cool, housing is fun, music is good, etc but the HC/Time gate focused 'group or gtfo' direction is rather lame. But each their own. We shall see what happens in a month when WoD is released: it's going to get awfully quiet around here once it does I bet....which will please the fan boys to no end...until they realize there isn't many left.
 
Can this be change? Sure can but it's up to carbine to 'listen' which is their main selling point. So far, they don't seem to be doing that at all. :(	
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Oh I definitely agree, WoW at least offers some semblance of challenge. I can't even count the number of asian MMOs which barely even qualify as games and are rather just "give us this much money in order to win". There are some terrifying and sad articles about those games and how they get people addicted to them.
 
Carbine can definitely catch a segment of the MMO market and survive off of that. But it's going to be tricky going forward.	
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			Instead of rep grinds ... just have a linear progression of Raids that need to be completed ONCE for lore/story telling reasons.  I can live with that.  Also consider making the unlocks "Guild specific" instead of player specific.  If you leave a guild you relinquish your privileges to unlocks unless you join a guild with the same progression unlocks you knew before.  Seems to me since it's "group content" then Guilds should benefit from this sort of unlock (sorry Puggers but that is a toxic way to play these days).  It would seem to encourage guild formation and group play with friends "allies" and allow more people to see content.  It's still up to the guild as to who is on the "A list" roster etc, but allows for the "B-team" to practice as all the guild's unlocks will allow them to access fights to learn. Thoughts?	
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Just wanted to thank you for another wonderful comment before heading to bed. As I mentioned earlier, the reason I like reading your posts and taking the time to answer them (and time it certainly takes with my typing speed) is because you're one of those very few posters who are rational and can make their posts reflect that.
 
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The problem with this format is twofold.  First, unlike you, people don't see a fan of the game in most critics, they see a bandwagoner or a jumper who came in, hates everything, and ought to leave.  One of our major differences is that I will blatantly say, outright, what I like about the game and about the element I'm about to criticize. 
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i didnt read all 10 pages of this, but, here's all i have to say.
 
ive done two different mind numbingly time consuming raid attunement things in another game, and also a questline to remove a lock on my toon's max level, which was a gigantic timesink that took a minimum of 2 months of dungeon running, with rng elements on top to make it just feel unending. raided for a while, 6-8 hours some days, then pvped afterwards for another 2-3 hours or whatnot lol. quit that game a few months later because my guild died, and i had been itching to get back into the hardcore raiding scene for a couple of years. saw wildstar and was sooo pumped up for it all
 
got to this attunement stuff and immediately lost interest. its just, a BAD type of attunement imo, annoying as hell. may be unsubbing sometime soon. the thing thats funny is the dungeons really aren't even difficult, but playing an mmo flawlessly means lag is the challenge, not the gameplay.	
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Blizzard systematically destroyed the game through accessibility. Over time, as users became acclimated to accessibility, they demanded more accessibility. Accessibility is not a bad thing, but it tears people apart and makes them rely more on popup windows and checkboxes, and less on each other.
 
It poisons an MMO very slowly by eroding the links between individual players, because they no longer need to interact with each other to accomplish in-game goals.
 
In the very very early days of Vanilla, there were amazing server communities. The first blow was cross-realm PVP, because then you no longer saw people from the other faction consistently in PVP. That's how rivalries were formed, and it gave a strong sense of crossfaction community which was weakened by crossrealm PVP. 
 
The second blow was the dungeon finder. It is a fantastic feature but that was the decisive blow to server communities, which all but ceased to exist afterwards. Why bother trying to put together groups for hours when you can just click a button and go along doing whatever you want until your instance is ready? It's an awful temptation, one that most people can't resist.
 
The third blow was of course the raid finder. This wasn't even the last nail in the coffin, this was just an execution of whatever remained of server communities. Now you don't even need to join a guild to see raid content. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
This post got a littttttttle heavy, sorry. But it's just the truth about how Blizzard sacrificed communities and human connections for accessibility and ease of use. 
 
I think it is great that Carbine has encouraged people to group up and rely on each other for difficult content in this game. But I am afraid that Blizzard has socially engineered MMO gamers more than anyone ever realized, and they no longer take kindly to being forced to reach out to each other, rather than clicking a button to get dropped in a queue.
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I believe the problem they ran into was appealing to what people said they wanted, instead of what they actually want. Theres a man named Malcolm Gladwell, a journalist, author and speaker, who has an example using coffee. When asking consumers what they want, the majority of people said that they want a "Rich, dark roast" of coffee. It sounds good, does it not? Yet in actuality, only 25-27% of people actually like, and drink a rich dark roast. Most people like a weak, milky coffee yet they won't just come out and say that if asked.
 
Its the same thing with this, I believe. Many people said they wanted an old style, difficult game like original WoW, pre WotLK WoW. They enjoyed the corpse runs, the lost EXP, it built community! It built achievement! Being attuned to a raid was hard work, it was a badge of honor that you could even go to fight Ragnaros or whoever, to say nothing of gear and all that. Yet when a game was made to directly appeal to those people, who flooded all the forums, and MMO chats with how it was better "in vanilla WoW"...it fell flat. Wildstar may still be able to do fine, but its critical, mass appeal has taken a huge, huge hit, because like the coffee example, despite so many people saying they want an old school, challenging, vanilla WoW experience...only 25-27% actually like it, while many others prefer the weak, milky coffee. (Not that Wildstar will have only a 25-27% retention rate, just using the previous examples number)
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Instead of rep grinds ... just have a linear progression of Raids that need to be completed ONCE for lore/story telling reasons.  I can live with that.
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Tank,
 
I wasn't thinking so much about "reading lore" in the Raids.  I was thinking that of "lore" or "story reasons" for attunement progression.  Meaning there was a lore or story reason you had to do certain raids in a certain order.  I would give a feeling of "contributing" to the evolution of the story buy the Character(s)/Guild(s).  Does that amplification make sense? 	
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Tank,
 
I wasn't thinking so much about "reading lore" in the Raids.  I was thinking that of "lore" or "story reasons" for attunement progression.  Meaning there was a lore or story reason you had to do certain raids in a certain order.  I would give a feeling of "contributing" to the evolution of the story buy the Character(s)/Guild(s).  Does that amplification make sense? 
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It's funny, what we see here is indeed similar to the times when Cataclysm came out, people were moaning for harder content, then left the game because of the harder dungeons in Cata. I played WoW for 5+ years, from the beginning of BC, had 2 guilds since then, and then I lost 4 guilds in Cata due to this (truth to be told, I only looked for national guilds after the first one, so since there was a smaller playerbase in that circle, I saw the problem magnified)... which lead to me losing the mood and leaving the game as well.
 
And - this tells something about accessability - the introduction of raid finder played also a big role in this. I only played in casual guilds, we raided normal 10man raids, but after raid finder, a lot of people didn't want to put in even that much effort. It's funny because in BC, we casuals only raided 10mans and were never frustrated by the fact that we will never get into 25man raid dungeons. I totally hate raid finder, it's a community-killer. Hell, I even hate dungeon finder. I'm a tank in Wildstar but I'm never even thinking about using dungeon finder. It was such a horrible experience in WoW, that I think I will never use it in any MMO again. Ever.
 
I also think that 20/40 man raids are also a problem, if it was 10/25 like WoW or something like that, people wouldn't think "oh man, we still have to bring 10 people through the attunement process". I cannot imagine who in their right mind thought that 40 man raids will work. Basically the whole community told them before release that it won't work. Today's gaming culture made gamers impatient, Wildstar suffers from that now. People talk about MMORPG as a genre dying, well, I don't think it's the fault of MMORPGs. But at the end of the day, the important question is, how many players did NCSoft plan with...	
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Slopback,
 
I totally agree with you if you are saying that the problem lies with the player base and their sense of entitlement and immediate gratification.  Zeitgeist 4 the win?  0_0	
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			If Wildstar goes belly up because it can't retain players it's solely and completely Carbine's own fault. Free market economy, cupcake!	
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If Wildstar goes belly up because it can't retain players it's solely and completely Carbine's own fault. Free market economy, cupcake!
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			Video also killed the Radio star	
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If Wildstar goes belly up because it can't retain players it's solely and completely Carbine's own fault. Free market economy, cupcake!
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I think that one giant issue with attunement aka veteran dungeons is the incessant need to interrupt almost every mob and boss. 
 
Yes, interrupts are playing too big of a role in pve and seemingly require communication that simply isn't there all the time. This forces players into coordinated groups (guild runs) which leads to progress for the groups that complete their medal runs, which leads to a shortage of people who are willing to run vet dungeons within said guild. 
 
Interrupts in pve being less important (unsure of how to go about this exactly) would change a lot. 
 
Also, perhaps consider adding a Luck of the Draw buff, like pugs in WoW, to strengthen random groups to help make up for lack of communication.	
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Video also killed the Radio star
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THANK YOU	Quicksilver101you have said exactly how i feel! i love this game to bits!!! i just unsubbed a few days ago and im still unhappy i unsubbed because of a tedious attunement process
 
I couldn’t complete the dam vet dungeons because its like you said im one of those players that only get to play for a few hours a week and when i do login i have to pray to the wildstar gods my guild are online and have members available to run a vet dungeon with me... ive played since beta and up until 2 days ago and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
 
I will only be returning when they remove the dam timer for dungeon attunement or make it easier.
 
I am saying make it easier... not all of us can dedicate so much time! i pay just as much as the guy who plays 12 hours a day.. i dont want the game to lose its difficulty but the TIMER OH GOD THE TIMER IS JUST HNEUIVGSVUFIGAOEWURGVFSOWPEAUVFGWhfpwfpEHFPE8pQE8HFWEfh9pq!!!	
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I'm a casual player currently on 2/4 silvers for Dungeons.
 
In a month or so I'll probably be raiding with rest of my guild who are also primarily casual.
 
We have both a guild and a circle community on our server.
 
Oh wait I said the C word.....
 
MMOs = People = Sociable = Win.
 
There's nothing difficult about the dungeons if you're competent and can communicate.
 
Heaven forbid you should have to form relationships with random people online though....	
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			"Find a good group" Yea, that's about as helpful as "Just keep trying." Sounds good but doesn't solve the problem. People are leaving because of the ridiculous grindfest carbine has going. Its not the grouping, or the difficulty, or the minor bugs people keep blowing out of proportion. Its the endless obsessive grind people are saying screw that to.	
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THANK YOU
Quicksilver101you have said exactly how i feel! i love this game to bits!!! i just unsubbed a few days ago and im still unhappy i unsubbed because of a tedious attunement process
 
I couldn’t complete the dam vet dungeons because its like you said im one of those players that only get to play for a few hours a week and when i do login i have to pray to the wildstar gods my guild are online and have members available to run a vet dungeon with me... ive played since beta and up until 2 days ago and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
 
I will only be returning when they remove the dam timer for dungeon attunement or make it easier.
 
I am saying make it easier... not all of us can dedicate so much time! i pay just as much as the guy who plays 12 hours a day.. i dont want the game to lose its difficulty but the TIMER OH GOD THE TIMER IS JUST HNEUIVGSVUFIGAOEWURGVFSOWPEAUVFGWhfpwfpEHFPE8pQE8HFWEfh9pq!!!
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"Find a good group" Yea, that's about as helpful as "Just keep trying." Sounds good but doesn't solve the problem. People are leaving because of the ridiculous grindfest carbine has going. Its not the grouping, or the difficulty, or the minor bugs people keep blowing out of proportion. Its the endless obsessive grind people are saying screw that to.
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Problem is not all players have voice chat, which is annoying.
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Heaven forbid you should have to form relationships with random people online though....
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What follows is mostly my opinion save for a few salient facts that if a person were diligent enough to check they could probably verify.
 
As the OP pointed out, there has to be a mix between things, and right now Carbine isn't getting that apparently.  I play on Thunderhoof and it appears there's a population drop there as well.  I may never do the dungeons, I may never raid, but the lack of people is disturbing.  I am one of those who fall into the "casual" category and ...you know....I have a better idea.  Going to give people a little bit of a anecdote and maybe Carbine will take a page from the grand old mother of phone communications, AT&T.
 
I used to work for AT&T, in a project called GSSO, which is "Global Sales and Service".  During the time I spent training for GSSO, our instructor and some of the higher management in AT&T always told us to pay careful attention to those customers who had a calling plan, phone line, and a steady, if smallish bill.  Those people were the ones that AT&T fought hard to keep happy and subscribed to their service.  One of AT&T's officials during a Q&A meeting said that those people are the "bread and butter" of AT&T's financial security and success.  They don't have fancy or special calling plans, nor huge or extravagant or lavish plans and services, but a basic service, basic plan, and are happy with their service.
 
It appears at this point that Carbine catered to those with the special, lavish and extravagant calling plans, and left their "bread and butter" customers (read: casuals) alone.
 
Now with a dwindling population across all servers and a game mechanics infrastructure that would need some serious reworking, Carbine is seeing the impact of those lost "bread and butter" customers.
----
			
Attunement made me lose interest.  I love a bit of difficulty, but hate pointless grinds.  This coming from someone who has to farm trigger fingers.
 
The rep grind, simple as it is, shatters the momentum built up by getting enough gems and beating the first elemental to complete the first step of attunement.  The player then gets cupcaked in the face, getting told to grind half their rep again, or all again, or worse if you did PVP, to gain basically all faction rep.
 
I could be striving for silvers in dungeons.  Instead I need to run War of the Wilds gold, again, 30 more times.   Fuuuuun.
 
The insulting part is that I have NOTHING to gain from this rep grind, and dungeon completions aren't tracked so what's even the point doing a dungeon or longer adventure?  30 wotw runs isn't bad, but it is worthless apart from getting the arbitrary amount of rep needed to continue worthwhile challenging content.  It's two-thirds boring and one-third annoying, and after two runs I literally want to quit and do something more fun.
 
Then it gets even better. My delay in finishing the Pointless Rep Grind means there are fewer people who will be available to group dungeons once I finish, because I guess dungeons aren't worthwhile enough for people to bother with once they are through them.  That seems like a running trend, to be honest, and I'm not interested in fighting it, Social-Game White Knights weep.
 
I guess I might get the urge to get that rep, but as of now, I'm not playing enough (because I don't want to).  I'm taking my sub off auto-renew.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Attunement made me lose interest.  I love a bit of difficulty, but hate pointless grinds.  This coming from someone who has to farm trigger fingers.
 
The rep grind, simple as it is, shatters the momentum built up by getting enough gems and then getting told to grind half again, or all again, or worse if you did PVP, to gain faction rep.
 
I could be striving for silvers in dungeons.  Instead I need to run War of the Wilds gold, again, 30 more times.   Fuuuuun.
 
The insulting part is that I have NOTHING to gain from this rep grind, and dungeon completions aren't tracked so what's even the point doing a dungeon or longer adventure?  30 wotw runs isn't bad, but it is worthless apart from getting the arbitrary amount of rep needed to continue worthwhile challenging content.
 
Even better, perhaps, my delay in finishing the Pointless Rep Grind means there are fewer people who will be available to group dungeons once I finish, because I guess dungeons aren't worthwhile enough for people to bother with once they are through them.  That seems like a running trend, to be honest, and I'm not interested in fighting it, Social-Game White Knights weep.
 
I guess I might get the urge to get that rep, but as of now, I'm not playing enough (because I don't want to).  I'm taking my sub off auto-renew.
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{| class="blockquote"
"Find a good group" Yea, that's about as helpful as "Just keep trying." Sounds good but doesn't solve the problem. People are leaving because of the ridiculous grindfest carbine has going. Its not the grouping, or the difficulty, or the minor bugs people keep blowing out of proportion. Its the endless obsessive grind people are saying screw that to.
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{| class="blockquote"
The reputation is a non-issue. You will be ~28k by the time you are done questing, then it's a matter of 4 days worth of dailies, if that.
 
I think attunement is fine, all except for the Partial Primal Patterns for Datascape. Its not so much the amount required, but the content you acquire them from.
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			couldn't agree more
			
				
	Edited August 5, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
		Language	
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{| class="blockquote"
Attunement causes rifts in guilds.  You need 20 people for a raid.  That means four groups need to run at once.  You need 4 tanks, but 20 man raiding doesn't require 4 tanks so 2 of those tanks will be gearing for basically the wrong spec.
 
Then you factor in random dungeon running that isn't scheduled by the guild, some people get lucky and silver out of the dungeon their group was working on, groups get shifted on raid night, new people keep getting placed with people who are trying to silver and have to reteach etc etc.
 
Repeat over and over.  Guilds end up with like 1-2 groups of people who stuck together and finished everything, are burnt out and don't really want to ever touch dungeons again because there's no gear and no reason to do it other than being forced to for attunement for the rest of Raid group.  Burn out occurs etc before Raiding even STARTS.
----
			Sane people told Them the 1st day of Official launch that this Attunement would kill this game. Everyone else was drunk on Hardcore Kool-Aid  And when that stops killing it The Ability and Amp Upgrades System is lying in wait, to make sure that this fine game that's spiraling towards F2P, will not grow!	
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{| class="blockquote"
First of all, why are truly "casual" players quitting over raid attunement?  Raiding, by definition, isn't a casual thing to do.
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Not sure Attunement is the problem, it doesn't seem unreasonable.  Sure, there are things about it that need to change (lack of concurrent progress) or die a lonely death (world boss grind).  Streamlining it to 4xVet Adventures + 4xVet Dungeons seems like it would calm most of the objections.
 
The timed runs have no business being part of Attunement.  I don't care what they "prove".  Any raid-team that doesn't put prospective candidates through a trial deserves what they get (paid carries, terrain exploiters, etc.).  What the timed runs are doing is a continuation of the toxic medal-or-bust attitude that prompted the loot rework.  That attitude is running the so-called "Filthy Casuals" out of the content meant for them.
 
On a general note, not only is the game unforgiving, it's unrewarding.  Beating the boss the first time is awesome.  Beating him the fifth time? Or the twentieth? Not so much.  Oh and here's your 20 silver, a blue that might vendor for a gold and a 63g repair bill.  If the carrot is wilting, remind me why I'm subjecting myself to the razor tipped whip?
 
I think Attunement is targeted because for PvE there isn't much else TO do.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes.
 
The Attunement fell under time consuming and tedious not hardcore, and as such most neglect it as it neglects them.
----
			If you look at how people were getting through the silver dungeons a lot were using bugs to skip boss mechanics. People were/are doing everything possible just to get out of attunement. Attunement is seen mostly as a job to do after your RL job..	
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{| class="blockquote"
Grind Fest?  the only thing that is really grinding about Attunement is the stupid world bosses.  
 
Reputation?  Not really - not unless you only PvPed your way through.  Even then just doing dailies will get you that.
 
Dungeon?  If you have a semi-decent static, you can finish dungeon attunement in a week - even if you just do 1 dungeon a day.
 
Adventures?  even less time than Dungeons - though Malgrave trail is -cupcake-
 
I guess if you consider that grinding then that is that.  But anything is a grind if you want to do things the hard way.  You are better off keeping an eye out for players who are good and stay for more than 1 run.  PUG xxxx, and think wow this tank is pretty good.  "Tank you want to run xxxxx veteran with me?  I am trying for attunement".  etc. etc.  But if you want to endless toss yourself into the pool of PUG without ever trying to communicate a little then yeah, it will be a huge huge uphill climb.
----
			Attunement is utterly dumb. It doesn't weed anything out. People can get carried through or pay for it. Also, who gives a shit if bads want to go wipe in raids. When a guild recruits someone for raids, they are going to test the recruit out anyways to make sure he's competent. Don't need attunement for anything but to *cupcake* people off and waste their time.	
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			Was talkin to this guild recruiter for a major one on our server....and he pretty much said they cannot possible retain a consistant raider base b/c people keep quiting thus they gotta pull more newbs through the attunement gate; he's getting might sick of that. Seriously, there is non-stop raid guild recruitment spam going on. They used to only ask for people farther in the attune process but now most them are begging for people who simply have a heart beat. lol?	
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{| class="blockquote"
Was talkin to this guild recruiter for a major one on our server....and he pretty much said they cannot possible retain a consistant raider base b/c people keep quiting thus they gotta pull more newbs through the attunement gate; he's getting might sick of that. Seriously, there is non-stop raid guild recruitment spam going on. They used to only ask for people farther in the attune process but now most them are begging for people who simply have a heart beat. lol?
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{| class="blockquote"
The Attunement fell under time consuming and tedious not hardcore, and as such most neglect it as it neglects them: Isen't that the definition of hardcore for most people? tedious, time consueming grind, if anyone manage to pull through that i'd call them hardcore
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{| class="blockquote"
A few hours a week? How in the world can you expect to accomplish anything in any game in that time? Come on, be serious? You think Carbine should design content for people who only play a "few hours a week"?
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{| class="blockquote"
So your saying because i can’t spend as much time as you or others i don’t get to play the game im paying for?
 
well with only a few hours a week i got to lv 50 in the first month and completed all dungeons and adventures, just because i can’t complete a vet dungeon in the time frame they want should that lock me out of Raids that don’t even have a time limit?
 
Us casuals do not lack the skill to complete most aspects of this game, we just dont have the time to run through it as much as you "hardcore" players and have to be lucky that when we can log in we have the adequately skilled played available for the dungeon run.
 
Does this mean that people who aren’t at school and are working or have kids and a social life outside of their bedroom do not have the rights to raid? Is this what you’re saying?
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If it's a interest issue (the attunement - on a guild-wide level - is tedious, drawn out, bleeds out desire for playing), then it's a... oh.
 
If it's a retention issue (the attunement keeps causing players to quit causing guilds to keep having to re-attune players), then it's a... OH.	
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{| class="blockquote"
If it's the organization aspect (you can't get 5 people together to work on it), organizing a 20 man is never going to happen.
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Hey everyone,
 
Just a quick reminder to keep posts in this (and any other) thread civil and on-topic.
 
Thanks,Team WildStar	
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So, just wanted to drop into this thread and let folks know that we've recently put together a fairly substantial report highlighting the community concerns on a number of topics, attunements being one of them.
 
We've (the Community team) sent this on to several of the Directors to help make sure they have a full understanding of what YOUR concerns and complaints are, as well as a number of suggestions for fixes.
Just keep in mind, that doesn't mean everything is going to be magically fixed next patch. These things require discussion and it doesn't mean the dev team will agree with everything, or may have insight into technical limitations we (and you) aren't aware of.
 
Hopefully, we can get something sorted and a response to you guys but I just wanted to let you know it's being looked at.	
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{| class="blockquote"
1, As a casual myself (who hasn't done any dungeons on silver yet), I don't understand your argument.
 
2, Silver dungeons takes *less* time to complete, so time isn't your issue.
 
3, If it's a skill issue (you can't complete a silver dungeon at your skill level), then you aren't ready for raiding.
 
4, If it's the organization aspect (you can't get 5 people together to work on it), organizing a 20 man is never going to happen.
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{| class="blockquote"
As a casual myself (who hasn't done any dungeons on silver yet), I don't understand your argument.
 
Silver dungeons takes *less* time to complete, so time isn't your issue.
 
If it's a skill issue (you can't complete a silver dungeon at your skill level), then you aren't ready for raiding.
 
If it's the organization aspect (you can't get 5 people together to work on it), organizing a 20 man is never going to happen.
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{| class="blockquote"
So, just wanted to drop into this thread and let folks know that we've recently put together a fairly substantial report highlighting the community concerns on a number of topics, attunements being one of them.
 
We've (the Community team) sent this on to several of the Directors to help make sure they have a full understanding of what YOUR concerns and complaints are, as well as a number of suggestions for fixes.
Just keep in mind, that doesn't mean everything is going to be magically fixed next patch. These things require discussion and it doesn't mean the dev team will agree with everything, or may have insight into technical limitations we (and you) aren't aware of.
 
Hopefully, we can get something sorted and a response to you guys but I just wanted to let you know it's being looked at.
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{| class="blockquote"
Guilds end up with like 1-2 groups of people who stuck together and finished everything, are burnt out and don't really want to ever touch dungeons again because there's no gear and no reason to do it other than being forced to for attunement for the rest of Raid group.  Burn out occurs etc before Raiding even STARTS.
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{| class="blockquote"
So your saying because i can’t spend as much time as you or others i don’t get to play the game im paying for?
 
well with only a few hours a week i got to lv 50 in the first month and completed all dungeons and adventures, just because i can’t complete a vet dungeon in the time frame they want should that lock me out of Raids that don’t even have a time limit?
 
Us casuals do not lack the skill to complete most aspects of this game, we just dont have the time to run through it as much as you "hardcore" players and have to be lucky that when we can log in we have the adequately skilled played available for the dungeon run.
 
Does this mean that people who aren’t at school and are working or have kids and a social life outside of their bedroom do not have the rights to raid? Is this what you’re saying?
 
 
----
			
Attunement is nothing more than another "leveling" process that has the benefit of:
 
1) Giving the player a sense of progression
2) Gets you geared up for raiding
3) Gets your team used to playing with each other
4) Hones your own skill for the mechanics you are about to face
 
The problem is players view hitting level cap as the only barrier they should face to raiding - and that's not the case here, and was never promised to be. Their expectations were set by another game, and that is not this game.
 
If you like playing WildStar, attunement is nothing but fun because it's more of playing WildStar.
 
Only the Datascape attunement step seems to be a little off, due to acquiring patterns in a place that, by then, is over-used.	
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{| class="blockquote"
If you like playing WildStar, attunement is nothing but fun because it's more of playing WildStar.
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{| class="blockquote"
1, If you haven’t even tried Vet's yet im not sure why you are even on this forum post.
 
2, How do you know this? you like you said "hasn’t done any dungeons on silver yet)
 
3, Its not a skill issue as i already said i can easily kill all bosses without dying, doesn’t that tell you something?? Any noob can be boosted through vet dungeons but they will watch the battle from the graveyard.
 
4, Its not a organisation issue but quicksilver said it very clearly "The expectation is that you can find a 20 man to join once you are attuned.. not that you will be putting the 20 man together by yourself....."
 
Im not arguing for the sake of arguing i want what the forum poster wants as well and we are expressing that on here, why do you feel the need to try to defend (very badly) anyway?
----
			
 
This thread's getting good.	
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{| class="blockquote"
This is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.
----
			
Wildstar's attunement process reminds me of getting keyed for Karazhan. And the funny thing about that... people were just as lazy in WoW as they are in Wildstar. Having to stand at the gate entrance, opening it for raid members who were too lazy to get attuned themselves. Most raids had only 2 or 3 people attuned for the raid instance, but yet everyone wanted to raid. It was funny reading all the ways to bypass the attunement process on the forums. Nothing boggled my mind more than people refusing to get attuned because it was too hard/time consuming, yet they were okay with raiding for +3 hours in an 10 man instance that was just as hard or even harder.
 
I can agree that some of the attunement process in Wildstar can use a touch up like getting rid of the timed runs in dungeons, but if my history with attunement means anything. It seems like people in Wildstar wont be happy until the process only requires you to talk to two npcs who are standing right next to each other, scratch that, talk to one npc to get attuned.	
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{| class="blockquote"
So what your saying is, that because you only have a couple of hours a week, everything in the game should be dumbed down to fit 2 hours a week.
 
That's some serious selfish shit right there.
 
If you payed for the game not knowing that 2 hours a week properly would'nt cut it, thats not the developers nor the rest of the communitys fault.
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{| class="blockquote"
You are putting words in my mouth.
 
If conent isnt avalible to the masses that cant put in more than 5-6 hours a week.. not sure where you got 2 hours from then Wildstar will lose a massive % of subs.
 
Since you obviously know about this subject since you are arguing with me do tell me what the percentage of ALL subscription mmo's casual player base is? hmm? whats that? more than half?? well dam i must be selfish...
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{| class="blockquote"
I am doing vets. I just haven't tried to get silver yet. I'm in this forum post because I like the idea of progression, even if I may not have the schedule to finish it. At least I'm somewhere on the path.
 
Of course silver takes less time to complete- by definition they are on timers.
 
I'm assuming it isn't a skill issue.
 
So you are looking for someone else to do the organizational work so that you can raid. Which is fine. Hopefully you can find a raid group that will work on your schedule. But just like you don't have to organize a raid yourself, you don't have to organize five mans yourself. There are people out there organizing silver runs. In fact, hopefully a lot of those potential raid groups you want to be in.
 
I'm defending this because I *like* that there is something to work for after I can consistently get the bosses down. It seems completely reasonable to me that this would be required for raiding. Silvers are much easier with organization, which is required for raiding (yes, there's the odd pug that gets silver, but it's not the norm).
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{| class="blockquote"
funny, because I thought it was the best arguments.
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{| class="blockquote"
How many hours a week should someone have to put in to see all the content available?
 
For me, I'm more concerned that there is always something for me to do when I log in. I don't really care if I've seen it all, as long as there is more for me to see.
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{| class="blockquote"
I would have thought the mind-numbingly poor attempt at logic would be self-evident, but I guess I'll have to elaborate then:
 
If you like "playing Wildstar" (a vague term that can mean everything from [enjoys ALL aspects of Wildstar] to [enjoys certain aspects of Wildstar]), then attunement is nothing but fun because it's [certain aspect of Wildstar]. 
 
If you like boxing then getting knocked unconscious is nothing but fun because it's an aspect of boxing.
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{| class="blockquote"
hahahaha
 
(Not sure if total troll or trying to be serious)
 
I can tell you from someone that did martial arts growing up and did hand to hand in the military training, I loved doing those things but hated getting hit or being KO'd. You can like something and not like all aspects of it
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{| class="blockquote"
It's literally just the argument Lethality made translated into boxing, I know it's dumb, that's the point :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Which makes sense coming from him. If you don't like it my way you're wrong! He cracks me up :D
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{| class="blockquote"
I would have thought the mind-numbingly poor attempt at logic would be self-evident, but I guess I'll have to elaborate then:
 
If you like "playing Wildstar" (a vague term that can mean everything from [enjoys ALL aspects of Wildstar] to [enjoys certain aspects of Wildstar]), then attunement is nothing but fun because it's [certain aspect of Wildstar]. 
 
If you like boxing then getting knocked unconscious is nothing but fun because it's an aspect of boxing.
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{| class="blockquote"
You are putting words in my mouth.
 
If conent isnt avalible to the masses that cant put in more than 5-6 hours a week.. not sure where you got 2 hours from then Wildstar will lose a massive % of subs.
 
Since you obviously know about this subject since you are arguing with me do tell me what the percentage of ALL subscription mmo's casual player base is? hmm? whats that? more than half?? well dam i must be selfish...
----
			Well the big problem with attunement currently is that lots of players are getting stuck in sliver dungeon requirements, due to it being un PuB with group finder so they need to ask their guild for help if their guild has vet dungeon runners. Which in turn burn out the vet players who now need to teach the newbies how to do dungeon properly after a few failures per dungeon.	
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{| class="blockquote"
But the thing is, I don't see any parts of attunment that are like getting kicked unconscious. Perhaps hunting down the world bosses is painful (haven't gotten there yet), but in general the list of attunment tasks looks like doing a lot of stuff that drew me to the game in the first place. It looks fun!
 
Edit: I guess the better analogy is I can enjoy running dungeons without enjoying wiping.
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{| class="blockquote"
hahahaha
 
(Not sure if total troll or trying to be serious)
 
I can tell you from someone that did martial arts growing up and did hand to hand in the military training, I loved doing those things but hated getting hit or being KO'd. You can like something and not like all aspects of it
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{| class="blockquote"
In MMO words: I like raiding, but I hate it when the bosses fight back when I try killing them.
 
 
W* plz.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes you are. I refuse to believe that the "masses" playing this game only have 5-6 hours a week. If you would be able to clear all the content on weekly basis in 5-6 hours - I assure you, all the servers would be a wasteland, much more than now.
And that depends on how you perceive casual. You should know these days people use that word casual as a nicer word for being bad at the game. I see loads of people claiming to be casual and yet still banging out multiple hours a day. So yes, a large quantity of the playerbase will define themselves as casuals, but trust me, that doesnt equal them not playing a whole freaking lot.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yay for out of context way overboard posts! You make the world go round just like Lethality!
----
			Well doesn't matter what the few super hardcore players say, if most players made an issue out of it and sub number dropped too much Carbine will have to do something about attunement. As it is even those attunement supporter are even saying to merge servers which means sub numbers are getting worrisome.	
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{| class="blockquote"
What if guild groups with voice chat are also failing silver runs no matter how many attempts and different play/group compositions? 
 
What is the right call here. Be an a-hole starting calling people out left and right? 
 
PS. Leaving the guild is not an option.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well doesn't matter what the few super hardcore players say, if most players made an issue out of it and sub number dropped too much Carbine will have to do something about attunement. As it is even those attunement supporter are even saying to merge servers which means sub numbers are getting worrisome.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well doesn't matter what the few super hardcore players say, if most players made an issue out of it and sub number dropped too much Carbine will have to do something about attunement. As it is even those attunement supporter are even saying to merge servers which means sub numbers are getting worrisome.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well doesn't matter what the few super hardcore players say, if most players made an issue out of it and sub number dropped too much Carbine will have to do something about attunement. As it is even those attunement supporter are even saying to merge servers which means sub numbers are getting worrisome.
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{| class="blockquote"
The servers are empty most of the time (if general chat on the forums is to be believed)
 
I didn’t mean complete all the content in that short amount of time, i meant i should be able to within 5-6 hours complete a single dungeon or adventure and i can! my point being i should be able to make progress! ive been stuck on the attunement (for reasons ive already explained) for 4 weeks!!!
 
I like to think casual means generally average player with little free time.
 
I dont belive that people who are unskilled should get to raid "i call them wow players :D"
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Here's the problems I see with the attunement process:
 
1) The step-by-step process draws it out, and makes it so that players get log-jammed at Silver runs and feel like they aren't progressing.  I say let people start working on world bosses, adventures, and dungeons at the same time, and feed the solo content in based on total % complete. People are overstating how time-consuming the process is, but it's more the feeling of being stuck at a certain point.
 
2) I honestly don't think that Silver runs are too difficult (with a guild or circle), but the RNG nature and high-stakes can make it frustrating. Maybe let people do 6 total silver runs in at least 3 dungeons, that way you don't get pigeon-holed into needing a specific one.
 
3) Probably the #1 culprit is that crafted gear is broken (or has poor itemization as they would say), and so people are not doing runs for gear.  This problem is two-fold, you feel stuck doing dungeons for no purpose than attunement, and this eliminates a lot of the support that people going through the attunement would get from veteran players.  People would be more eager to do the runs for better rewards.  Along these same lines, it's better to do solo content for platinum.  Better returns in the coin-purse would make good players want to farm dungeons, which in turn would make them easier.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Well doesn't matter what the few super hardcore players say, if most players made an issue out of it and sub number dropped too much Carbine will have to do something about attunement. As it is even those attunement supporter are even saying to merge servers which means sub numbers are getting worrisome.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think you should be able to progress given that timeframe. I did all my silver dungeons with people I met in PUG's. Every time i met a good player I friended him and presto in only a couple of weeks I had like 10-12 people on my friendlist all able to do the silver achivements.
If your not very socially active and only doing straight up PUG's, then yes, the last two dungeons will be near impossible to do on silver.
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I'm sure its already been said so I'll just repeat it - simply remove the "silver" requirement for attunement and allow the general completion of a dungeon to count towards the attunement progression.  If you have a group of 5 players who are willing to wipe over and over again but stick with the encounters to finally complete the dungeon then CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!  You're ready to Raid. 
 
As it stands now PUGs. . . . which ARE a part of the game so we can't be snobs about it, disband as soon as Silver looks like its not gonna happen; which does nothing for building a community or training up players.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If attunment is made easier, the victory for those running up against it will be short lived when they hit GA.
----
			
If they nerf attunment, I can't wait until you get people in Genetic Archives crying that Kuralak is too hard and needs to be nerfed.
 
"How are we supposed to get to the second act if this boss is preventing us from seeing it?  We could totally kill her if X, but that is unfair of you to make us do, so please make her do this other thing instead that is 'of the exact same difficulty' except we know we can do it."	
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{| class="blockquote"
Has GA really been that much harder for you than dungeons?
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{| class="blockquote"
If they nerf attunment, I can't wait until you get people in Genetic Archives crying that Kuralak is too hard and needs to be nerfed.
 
"How are we supposed to get to the second act if this boss is preventing us from seeing it?  We could totally kill her if X, but that is unfair of you to make us do, so please make her do this other thing instead that is 'of the exact same difficulty' except we know we can do it."
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{| class="blockquote"
If they nerf attunment, I can't wait until you get people in Genetic Archives crying that Kuralak is too hard and needs to be nerfed.
 
"How are we supposed to get to the second act if this boss is preventing us from seeing it?  We could totally kill her if X, but that is unfair of you to make us do, so please make her do this other thing instead that is 'of the exact same difficulty' except we know we can do it."
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