138555-elitists-kicking-new-players-from-party-uninstalled-page-5

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I've raided in WoW and by no means am I hardcore.  In my experience I've only used limited mods (Primarily DeadlyBossMods, which exists as a warning system for boss mechanics and cast timers) and voice chat.  I can say that while the difference between using those and not using those for normal-tier raids would likely be negligible and any increase in failure would likely be reliant on player capacity than content difficulty.
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 I simply read what you write, even when it's not the very last thing you posted.
 
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I don't think that extra difficulties are necessary.  The average player can either rise to the challenge or decide not to take part in the content.  If the content itself is truly so punishing that only a small percentage of those that try can succeed then the content itself needs to be adjusted instead of being split up.
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I Am going to.. use a completely different game as an example. I love pvp. Its one of the reasons I was drawn to Wildstar.
 
While waiting for F2p to start.. I tried Smite. Smite does have some tutorial systems but when it comes to actual content as a moba its pretty much once you start mp.. its you as a player dropped into a fire. There is no real explanation about how you should  customize one's god. Instead you are dropped in a river and its up to you to swim. When I started Smite.. I played co-op bot mode once. The I fired up Arena 5vs5. No prior experience in Smite but I did have prior experience in pvp in 5vs5 combat. And Immediately I was hooked... But then I tried another god and I was terrible with them and got annihilated. I could have RAGED to the heavens. I could have said THATS IT.. I am never trying Smite again. I could have gone to hi-rez studios forums and SCREAMED bloody murder. Instead.. I sat down and I read up on the god I struggled with. I actually watched a video. Went back tried again with the same god and again I had fun.
 
Goodness.. I remember playing Street fighter 2 in arcades. There was no videos online. There were no super guides. You payed money to play.. via quarters and you got CRushed in public by other players. That's right.. you got your booty smacked around in front of other players in real life. No alias to protect your little pride. You got owned and everyone saw it. So players then we did not rage we did not foment dissent and scream at other players. We didn't have a real fist fight with another player because they were better. Nope.. we practiced and tried again.
 
I remember visiting a friend in Nyc and going to china town and going to an arcade and facing chinese gang members who were known to carry knives and well.. hurt each other. But when it came to the game.. of street fighter..they didn't push violence on each other. Instead if they saw a player who was good.. they would get excited and want to watch them play. Because they wanted to learn more so they could get better.  Wildstar  is a game that yes is challenging but its not the difficulty of games like Dark souls that prides itself on actually killing its customers easily. I think many players have gotten sadly way to complacent because of what they are used to from other games. Look many of those other games are being left because they don't offer a challenge they end up leading to boredom. Its ok to be proud of Wildstar's challenging content. It would be worse to be a game that basically plays itself on the rails and is so easy that you just watch.
			
				
	Edited October 11, 2015 by TheBlueMeanie	
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Here's the thing and I really need you to believe me here: I'm not trying to deflect the issue or strawman or anything.  I'm not some experienced debater.  Hell, I'm not even that good at conversing with my own friends sometimes.  I'm kind of an idiot and, as you have pointed out multiple times, I'm kind of very terrible at conveying my points.  All of this effort I'm expending trying to express what I feel the right way comes out horrendously wrong and reading these responses makes me feel extra awful about it so I don't even know what to do anymore.
 
I don't think that extra difficulties are necessary.  The average player can either rise to the challenge or decide not to take part in the content.  If the content itself is truly so punishing that only a small percentage of those that try can succeed then the content itself needs to be adjusted instead of being split up.
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			I kept getting kicked after waiting in queue for 30min to an hour. I got tired of it so  I said YOLO and bought a set of lvl 65 pvp gear and spec'd as a tank. I went in , kept losing my shield after 1 hit. Good thing a spellslinger from Enigma happened to be there and carried our asses so hard lol..	
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I kept getting kicked after waiting in queue for 30min to an hour. I got tired of it so  I said YOLO and bought a set of lvl 65 pvp gear and spec'd as a tank. I went in , kept losing my shield after 1 hit. Good thing a spellslinger from Enigma happened to be there and carried our asses so hard lol..
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is, in practice, advocating for extremely dedicated, challenge-oriented content to cease to exist because most players simply do not want to have to schedule out their free time, do homework, and dedicate 6-12 hours per week that they could be spending with their spouses, kids, friends, etc. to do a single activity in a single game just to see a pretendy fun time monster go down in flames. That is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of a sensible set of priorities.
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Yasfan your point about Wildstar would be valid and more so if Wildstar's issues were about difficulty. You keep harping on challenging gameplay in Wildstar as being the problem that hurt the game. Wildstar had massive problems less so with difficulty and far more problems with bugs,Grindy attunement systems and worst of all The number  1 issue that hurt wildstar was lack of preparedness in managing pvp and rampant cheating. The pvp system in wildstar at launch was broken terribly so. 
 
All those issues are gone. Having challenging gameplay is not some major issue that is breaking the game. I was here for launch and for the first four months of this game and the overwhelming issues that were not fixed quickly were the pvp systems that allowed people to cheat and wintrade. It also lead to raiders to abuse the pvp system to get pvp weapons to make the pve content even easier. These were the major problems. Those problems have been addressed. The game doesn't need to be made easier. And this is not a hardcore based game. Are you going to seriously tell players that The housing system in Wildstar is hardcore ownly? For some players being great at the auction system is fun for them. And for some players collecting items to create the ultimate house and setup that is content. You are far too focused on a few grumbly people and your belief this game needs to town down the challenge. Long term wise if you remove challenge you will prevent players from coming back. 	
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#1 I thought you said you wanted to leave? Why start a new thread?
First you cry about dungeons being too hard, then you cry about people kicking you. 
Maybe there is something you dont tell us. There is always 2 sides
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/138092-ner-flow-level-dungeons/page-2
 
What about listening to some of the advices, instead of making empty threats and start a new forum post in a different section?
 
If you are ever going to start on another mmo again, stop being such a cry baby.
 
Dont let the door hit you on your way out...
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			I notice Yasfan has yet to respond to my statement but gladly likes the rant post from the anonymous person who echos the player who posted in several threads on different forums before posting here. Like I said you'r point about this game is not valid and you are not here to really help Wildstar. 	
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			This is the biggest problem with this game is the damn community. It made me and my gf quit the game after a few dungeons of rude people. And when we came to these forums asking for help we got "Git gud" or "Your group sucks". I just want all of you to know that the mmo market has a shit ton of games to pick from. If you make people want to leave, they have other options. I don't want to break it to all of you but this game isn't the end all be all. A lot of people would rather move on to another game then deal with the problems of this game. You know how I know that.....this game had to go f2p. Tons of people left this game for a number of reasons. One of them was what OP just complained about and another one was the reactions I see in this forum post. "Bye" "Cya". Don't do that, you need these people. They might actually follow your advice and that is the last thing you want. You don't want people leaving your game when it has be struggling for god knows how long. Don't be rude, and don't push people away. We are all human and at one point ALL of you were new as well. Move your ego aside and lend a helping hand or just don't say anything. Saying nothing is better than telling someone to go away. 	
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Yasfan your point about Wildstar would be valid and more so if Wildstar's issues were about difficulty. You keep harping on challenging gameplay in Wildstar as being the problem that hurt the game. Wildstar had massive problems less so with difficulty and far more problems with bugs,Grindy attunement systems and worst of all The number  1 issue that hurt wildstar was lack of preparedness in managing pvp and rampant cheating. The pvp system in wildstar at launch was broken terribly so. 
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I notice Yasfan has yet to respond to my statement but gladly likes the rant post from the anonymous person who echos the player who posted in several threads on different forums before posting here. Like I said you'r point about this game is not valid and you are not here to really help Wildstar. 
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I Am going to.. use a completely different game as an example. I love pvp. Its one of the reasons I was drawn to Wildstar.
 
While waiting for F2p to start.. I tried Smite. Smite does have some tutorial systems but when it comes to actual content as a moba its pretty much once you start mp.. its you as a player dropped into a fire. There is no real explanation about how you should  customize one's god. Instead you are dropped in a river and its up to you to swim. When I started Smite.. I played co-op bot mode once. The I fired up Arena 5vs5. No prior experience in Smite but I did have prior experience in pvp in 5vs5 combat. And Immediately I was hooked... But then I tried another god and I was terrible with them and got annihilated. I could have RAGED to the heavens. I could have said THATS IT.. I am never trying Smite again. I could have gone to hi-rez studios forums and SCREAMED bloody murder. Instead.. I sat down and I read up on the god I struggled with. I actually watched a video. Went back tried again with the same god and again I had fun.
 
Goodness.. I remember playing Street fighter 2 in arcades. There was no videos online. There were no super guides. You payed money to play.. via quarters and you got CRushed in public by other players. That's right.. you got your booty smacked around in front of other players in real life. No alias to protect your little pride. You got owned and everyone saw it. So players then we did not rage we did not foment dissent and scream at other players. We didn't have a real fist fight with another player because they were better. Nope.. we practiced and tried again.
 
I remember visiting a friend in Nyc and going to china town and going to an arcade and facing chinese gang members who were known to carry knives and well.. hurt each other. But when it came to the game.. of street fighter..they didn't push violence on each other. Instead if they saw a player who was good.. they would get excited and want to watch them play. Because they wanted to learn more so they could get better.  Wildstar  is a game that yes is challenging but its not the difficulty of games like Dark souls that prides itself on actually killing its customers easily. I think many players have gotten sadly way to complacent because of what they are used to from other games. Look many of those other games are being left because they don't offer a challenge they end up leading to boredom. Its ok to be proud of Wildstar's challenging content. It would be worse to be a game that basically plays itself on the rails and is so easy that you just watch.
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This is the biggest problem with this game is the damn community. It made me and my gf quit the game after a few dungeons of rude people. And when we came to these forums asking for help we got "Git gud" or "Your group sucks". I just want all of you to know that the mmo market has a shit ton of games to pick from. If you make people want to leave, they have other options. I don't want to break it to all of you but this game isn't the end all be all. A lot of people would rather move on to another game then deal with the problems of this game. 
 
You know how I know that.....this game had to go f2p. Tons of people left this game for a number of reasons. One of them was what OP just complained about and another one was the reactions I see in this forum post. "Bye" "Cya". Don't do that, you need these people. They might actually follow your advice and that is the last thing you want. You don't want people leaving your game when it has be struggling for god knows how long. Don't be rude, and don't push people away. We are all human and at one point ALL of you were new as well. Move your ego aside and lend a helping hand or just don't say anything. Saying nothing is better than telling someone to go away. 
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 If you make two separate difficulties then dominant strategy is going to take over and the bulk of players are going to shift to doing the easy mode and those that want to be invested in challenging content get left behind.
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Someone should of told you not to talk to Yasfan. Shes well " Special". One of those people who have opinions on content they have never tried. The type of people that make to want to wrap a car around a pole at 120.
 
If you have things to say about the game do it on the sub reddit. Haven't seen her and her little forum friends troll on there.
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Sorry, I had some problem reading that as anything but "Flee to reddit, where logic and reason will not reach us!"
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Seriously, there are only 16 guilds that have managed to complete the last raid tier and the game has been out for a year. How big of a hurry do you think the devs are in to release the next one, knowing that--at best--there are only a few hundred players out of the entire game who are even in a position to enter it?  :huh:
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Sorry, I had some problem reading that as anything but "Flee to reddit, where logic and reason will not reach us!"
 
90% of the knowledge a person has is due to things they have been told. This includes 'opinions about content they have never tried'. We see what the people who tried it have to say, and we get an idea about how it is despite our lack of actual experience. Just like how I have an idea of what an atom is despite never seeing one, who Alexander the Great was despite never having met him and what hemlock would do to me without ingesting it.
 
There is some truth that first-hand experience can change the perception of a person towards that subject, but pretending that an opinion is invalid because of a lack of first-hand experience is condescending at best and fallacious at worst. We know because others have told us.
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Sorry, I had some problem reading that as anything but "Flee to reddit, where logic and reason will not reach us!"
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Wasn't one of the things that lead to Wildstar going free to play a dwindling subscriber base...which would mean fewer players overall and more specifically fewer players trying to much less capable of completing the raid content.
 
I don't have access to any pertinent numbers, but it seems like 'not that many people completed it' is a bit of a misleading thing to say considering the player base was dropping at the time?  Less people playing overall leads to less people raiding leads to less people completing those raids, y'know?
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  :huh: Shall I point out how many guilds are still in the Genetic Archives after a year and haven't even entered Datascape, much less completed it? And that's completely ignoring players who have been here the whole time and aren't even interested in raiding. The game's population was small, but it wasn't small enough to make a few hundred players a substantial fraction of the playerbase. 
 
As for pertinent numbers, Wildstar-Progress.com shows who's where in terms of the raiding component of the game's endgame progression. Enjoy.  :)
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With numbers like that it seems as though the content itself may need to simply be adjusted like I've said before.  Challenge is fine and, based on your personal perspective, even good but if the content is so punishing or difficult that only a tiny fraction of the players can access it then there's a problem.
 
Though it could also just be that Datascape is a 40 man raid and it is balls-diculous trying to get 40 people to show up on time and then fight like a cohesive unit for two hours.  I could barely get my guild to field a team of 10 people most of the time and we always started at least a half-hour late.  Honestly I don't know if I'll ever understand how someone could get 40 people into a raid without it taking 6 hours just to walk in the door.
 
Edit: Pretty sure there was a good reason WoW's first raid was also the ONLY 40 man raid in its ongoing 11 year run...
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Datascape isn't a 40 man raid any more and hasn't been for a long time. It's a 20 man raid now.
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  :huh: Shall I point out how many guilds are still in the Genetic Archives after a year and haven't even entered Datascape, much less completed it? And that's completely ignoring players who have been here the whole time and aren't even interested in raiding. The game's population was small, but it wasn't small enough to make a few hundred players a substantial fraction of the playerbase. 
 
As for pertinent numbers, Wildstar-Progress.com shows who's where in terms of the raiding component of the game's endgame progression. Enjoy.  :)
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Thats like saying LoL should base its competitive league around bronze player's as they are the largest population. Having challenging content for those to pursue is a must in the current MMO seen. Because if you don't offer it people will go some where else. Having casual content is a must as well. You have Adventures, Dungeons, Dailies, Pvp and the usually Crafting. You have all of these yet how much fo it have you actually completed Yas? or how much of the player base has done all the casual content?
 
Id say its around par with those who have done GA. If you want a LFR type raid where you can afk in a corner to get your purples then fine have an LFR. But the reward will be 1-2 item levels higher then a dungeon because thats the skill level required to do an LFR level of content.
 
Is this the type of reward you are after? ( For the love of god no wall of text TLDR it for me)
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I heard what it's like to walk on the moon therefor i must have an opinion about what its like to walk of the moon. The stupidity the comes out of this forum is *cupcake*en amazing. Like i don;t need to watch car crashes on youtube anymore i can just come here and watch this train wreck of a conversation
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Can I maybe suggest that if you want to actually get a real response, that you not open with multiple insults and dismissals before finally asking a question?  
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Can I maybe suggest that if you want to actually get a real response, that you not open with multiple insults and dismissals before finally asking a question?  
 
 
I'd also like to point out that the concept of raiding only being for the elite needs to DIAF.   Why must 'casuals'  be relegated only to one part of the game, and raiders to another?  There is no reason why there can't be multiple difficulties for the same content.  There could very easily be a 'bronze'  raid as well as a platinum.  The same could apply to dungeons, aventures, etc.     We're all playing the same game, so why try to segregate people into different areas?
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The bulk of players aren't doing the hard mode in the first place and will never complete it at the current "challenging content" difficulty. Your solution is for them to become dedicated to completing challenging content or do something else--they will do something else, which is leave the game. We know this because this has already been tried and that is exactly what they did.
 
Players who genuinely want to do content for the challenge and for the increased reward associated with it retain their ability to have and enjoy that content independent of whether easier and appropriately less rewarding versions exist as long as three conditions are met: 1) there are in fact enough of them to actually do the content at that level of challenge, 2) the challenging content is made available, and 3) the challenging content is appropriately more rewarding in relation to the greater challenge. In fact, easier and less rewarding versions of that content ensure that it will be easier to justify creating the content at all, because it will be experienced by a larger fraction of the playerbase. 
 
Seriously, there are only 16 guilds that have managed to complete the last raid tier and the game has been out for a year. How big of a hurry do you think the devs are in to release the next one, knowing that--at best--there are only a few hundred players out of the entire game who are even in a position to enter it?  :huh:
 
Edit: My bad, first estimate of guilds to reach 9/9 DS was NA only, not NA+EU. My apologies, EU folks!
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You are always welcome to point out where I've said something fundamentally incorrect. As far as I can tell, so far you haven't.
 
That sounds about like what I was thinking, yeah. Less challenging content should be less rewarding content, as I have said repeatedly in this thread. That's essential to make sure that people who want better challenges feel appropriately rewarded for completing them.
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How many players would use this feature on a weekly bases? You say that the current raid content is pointless due to the lower number of people doing it but what would the numbers be for a low level LFR that barely out geared dungeons. The first boss of GA has glory unlocks that would make the LFR pointless in a gear aspect.
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			There are always going to be people doing this in MMOs with random groups. Either just shrug it off or create a guild and invite people you like.	
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How many players would use this feature on a weekly bases? You say that the current raid content is pointless due to the lower number of people doing it but what would the numbers be for a low level LFR that barely out geared dungeons. The first boss of GA has glory unlocks that would make the LFR pointless in a gear aspect.
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I heard what it's like to walk on the moon therefor i must have an opinion about what its like to walk of the moon. The stupidity the comes out of this forum is *cupcake*en amazing. Like i don;t need to watch car crashes on youtube anymore i can just come here and watch this train wreck of a conversation
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One thing that I think is missing in all this is the fact that the definition of what is "Challenging" is unique to the person. In other words what I find challenging is not the same as what a top tier raider finds challenging.
 
For me even leveling dungeons and solo shiphands are challenging. For other people they are faceroll easy. It is an individual thing. It is not a bad thing to stop at the point in progression where challenge turns into beat your head against the wall frustration and just enjoy what you personally find challenging.
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What promise can be made to the devs that this raid tier will be used? Because US RAIDERS use both GA and DS each week. So the time invested by the dev hasn't been wasted.
 
Can you say that the "Casuals" will do the same? Can you make that promise that money wont be wasted on creating content that isn't being used? ( counter argument "Ds has only been cleared by a small number of guilds") Thats true but how many are progression on it and or progression towards it.
 
The argument that casuals can't do raid content it flawed. Content is content it isn't gated anymore, Sure there is no LFR but there really doesn't need to be with all the pug run that happen. If you haven't seen any of the raid content 1 year into the game then it's not because it was to hard to get to, Its because you chose not to do it.
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If casual raids would only need to attract the same number of players as people in Datascape to make them worthwhile, they ought to do them without question.
 
As for who does easier versions of raids when they're available and accessible to PUGs, I'll refer you to this article here. Compare the LFR participation to the participation at any other level of difficulty and it is unambiguously clear that far more players do LFR than do the other versions of the raids. Fewer than 10% of players got through the raid at normal difficulty by the time of the survey, 3-4 months after the release of the raid; only 1-2% did so at Heroic difficulty. Half the playerbase did so at the LFR level.
 
Ask yourself how fast you'd be seeing the next raid tier roll out if half the playerbase was ready for some version of it.
Ask yourself that question every day until enough people get through DS to provide even the tiniest sliver of a lame justification to bring that content live.
And then maybe you'll figure out what the point is of having LFR.  :rolleyes:
 
Replay value is very high on casual content because it's fun to do and easy to get into. That's why people to this day will cheerfully farm Veteran Shiphands even though they're long past that gear being valuable. And even if it isn't particularly rewarding in comparison to a raid, many players will never be in a normal raid instance because they're just not that committed to raiding.
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			The moment you make contest easy enough that farming it over and over again becomes the sole end game is the moment an MMORPG loses it's heart.WoW has become so absolutely boring because you progress from Normal to Heroic to Mythic all doing the exact same thing over and over.It got so insanely boring doing the same raid over and over and that being really all there was. The older content didn't matter and most of it was soloable - removing any benefit or need to play with your friends.You technically do it "over and over" even when there's one raid but that's what the hardcore does - not the lesser skilled casual player or those willingly not wanting to put the time into that kind of raiding.There is absolutely nothing wrong with having easier raids for players to progress through.As more raids come out the older ones are adjusted to allow the players stuck prior to start progressing through the older ones to "catch up" through either adjustments on the bosses or through gear from other sources.Difficulty scales are terrible for longevity.However; Progression curves gives everybody something to do.If somebody absolutely needs to consume the content as quickly as possible that's when I say there's a problem - not that they can't clear the current raid in a week or so. Or even a day/few hours with the case of LFR systems. 	
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You say that if the same number of people did LFR as those who are in GA, or DS would make it worth the time? Yet i always see the complaint that no one is doing GA, DS because its too hard. If the number is so low then they wouldn't make a new raid to have the same low numbers in that content there would be no point. 
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If you're going to pretend that nobody will do it, at least address the data that exists in other games that actually have done it.
 
If you have a point here other than "why yes, I agree with you that casuals will never reach the hardcore levels of content, making a casual version of that content an excellent way to optimize use of limited developer resources", I'm not seeing what it is. I'm pretty sure that wasn't your point, however, since that would be in complete agreement with the point I've been making for several pages now and you seem very opposed to it.
 
When you can pay for raid development without the rest of the players who you think don't deserve to even see your preferred content. That's when you say "NO. Like no get off your high horse."
Otherwise, you're expecting the rest of us to pay for your welfare raid and acting like it's your right to expect the rest of us to support your content while you tell us to stay out.
 
Two things.
 
First, this has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. At all. There is no skill check to crafting. It is a 100% grind. Anybody can do it no matter what their system, ping, add-ons, and reflexes are. The same cannot be said for PvE, it is not simply a question of grinding to completion.
 
Second, you could have told him "Why yes, some DS gear is BoE and you can buy it in the auction house without ever setting foot in a raid". Because that is in fact true. He can have at least some gear at that high iLevel by getting enough plat and buying it without ever raiding.
 
Instead, you put him on ignore for having the sheer gall to want a path to rewarding gear that doesn't force him to raid, and showed off in brilliant display that toxic elitism that has so damaged the game's reputation. Congratulations for yet another demonstration that no, really, some people really are determined to repeat history here and in fact didn't learn a thing from what happened to the P2P version of the game.
 
 
 :huh: What part of "less challenging and appropriately less rewarding version of the content" are you having trouble reme--
 :lol: Never mind, I just realized. I know which part of that phrase you're having trouble remembering, so I'll just highlight it in red for you so that you can see why your summation isn't relevant here.
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Il sum it up nice and short for you Yas. If people are bad go play WoW if people want to get better try and raid. If people need welfare gear go play WoW. If people want a challenge trying doing something other than haunting the forums kk :)
 
Yes i am Elitist . I am that 1% that completes the content that this game created. #Elite. Enjoy the AFK in thayd like everyone else who cries about hard content
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When the elite raiding community can pay for their own game, they can have it and put up a big sign that says "No Filthy Casuals Allowed".
As this game demonstrated very clearly in its first year, the hardcore elite cannot afford to pay for this game.
 
So don't lecture me about welfare while you demand welfare raiding that you can't pay for.
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Il sum it up nice and short for you Yas. If people are bad go play WoW if people want to get better try and raid. If people need welfare gear go play WoW. If people want a challenge trying doing something other than haunting the forums kk :)
 
Yes i am Elitist . I am that 1% that completes the content that this game created. #Elite. Enjoy the AFK in thayd like everyone else who cries about hard content
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Il sum it up nice and short for you Yas. If people are bad go play WoW if people want to get better try and raid. If people need welfare gear go play WoW.
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If you get your wish, there will be no MMOs left but WoW.
 
I like difficult content, I loved TBC and I freaking hate LFR.  But I like WildStar, and I'd like it to still be around a year from now.  Which it won't be if most players don't find fun content to do.  And I'll reference Ghostcrawler as I usually do (<3) - content doesn't mean stuff players could theoretically do, it means stuff they actually want to do.  Lots of MMO players want to run dungeons and raids that a. - let them regularly progress their character and b. - don't make them tear their hair out and hate their fellow players for not being 'good enough'.  This game should offer them that.  I wasn't convinced 18 months ago.  I am now.
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Those same eltists left the game one day when the casuals left it too because there was no population ,queue times were crazy and no fresh blood to recruit. Wildstar tanked because their revenue lowered, monthly drops became quarterly and it reached a point it went f2p
 
Now when casuals came back to the game your intention is to drive them back to play other games, you do realese they  also pay the for the 1 % experience right??
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Welcome to a thread that has no point, hosted by Yasfan, the elite post spammer.
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so you posted in a post that has no point with a post that also has no point... oh wait there's no point...
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exactly the point, there is no point, why is this thing even alive? I doubt anyone has to time to even read all the crap and I know I can't link page 1 to what is on page 23. lol
 
 
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I thought about this a while back but was too fatigued to post it until just now:  Why not adopt the flex raiding method from WoW?
 
Hear me out, now, because it's not a bad idea.  Flex raiding is almost exactly what it sounds like...the raids are flexible with a dynamic level of difficulty (within the selected difficulty in WoW) that scales based on the number of players involved ranging from 10 to 25.  This would solve multiple problems in one go as it provides an easier difficulty of the raid (albeit one that requires fewer people and would, logistically, provide a similar level of challenge) while also making the content more accessible for those that simply can't manage to regularly field a squad of 20 people.
 
So the people that want the rough and tumble of hard mode can just drag some dead weight for extra challenge and those that want to maybe complete the content have a much better shot at it.
 
This is all conjecture, though, as I don't know if Carbine could feasibly implement that kind of mechanic with any measure of ease.	
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I thought about this a while back but was too fatigued to post it until just now:  Why not adopt the flex raiding method from WoW?
 
Hear me out, now, because it's not a bad idea.  Flex raiding is almost exactly what it sounds like...the raids are flexible with a dynamic level of difficulty (within the selected difficulty in WoW) that scales based on the number of players involved ranging from 10 to 25.  This would solve multiple problems in one go as it provides an easier difficulty of the raid (albeit one that requires fewer people and would, logistically, provide a similar level of challenge) while also making the content more accessible for those that simply can't manage to regularly field a squad of 20 people.
 
So the people that want the rough and tumble of hard mode can just drag some dead weight for extra challenge and those that want to maybe complete the content have a much better shot at it.
 
This is all conjecture, though, as I don't know if Carbine could feasibly implement that kind of mechanic with any measure of ease.
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That's debateable.  I've had raid experiences in WoW where we wiped consistently on the same boss and the ONLY kill we managed to get on that boss was the one time we had our standard raid team +1.
 
In THEORY the addition or subtraction of a single player would lead to no discernible difference in content difficulty due to scaling based on players.  In practice the variances between player skill, gear, and cohesion can make significant differences between content success rates with 10 or 11 people.
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The only group flex benefits are those who cannot field a full team and can't find PUG replacements. And it is great for that.
 
For those who find the regular raid path too difficult it does nothing since the relative difficulty of the raid to size does not change. In other words the output performance of any single player in the raid does not change. Overall HP etc of the bosses are reduced but they are only scaled down to the standard output of the number of players.
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Edit: Just a personal note here and not aimed at the post I answered specifically. I am not sure WHY people are advocating so strongly to make Wildstar more like WoW. They are very different beasts and they should remain so. I personally would prefer to challenge the Devs to come up with their own unique solutions to the various issues. The vision for this game should remain unique.
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			Daaaaamn this thread is still going. 	
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That still does NOT really help the lesser skilled player that does not want to be carried. It does not scale down the skill required. You added another person who in theory might have been skilled enough to make the difference. It is also possible WoW botched the scalingl it would not be the first time that happened either.
 
It still only benefits teams that want to field a non standard number of people in the group. Not the group Yas is talking about. It is not a LFR replacement. It is a different beast altogether.
 
Edit: I suppose I should clarify my attitudes a bit. I am someone that has been in WoW since pretty much the beginning. I have one of those lovely statues they gave out for the 10th anniversary sitting on my desk. I raided back then. I raided all the Vanilla through BC and through Wrath when my arthritis got bad enough it really was not an option anymore for me. I have pretty old school attitudes when it comes to personal responsibility to doing ones job properly in a raid. As such I am unusual in LFR. I get in there and do the mechanics such as they are. I give it 100% of my ability. I also often am making up for what other people lack in there. I just take their failures and the jerk factor and call it another boss mechanic to provide challenge.
 
I personally think WoW screwed up 2 ways with LFR (particularly in WoD). 1. LFR should share a raid lockout with all other versions of the same raid. Get the high end raiders out of there and the difficulty would go up immensely and people would actually have to do their jobs. 2. WoW should have left the difficulty at the Cata/MoP level. Blizzard is not God's gift to MMO innovation. They screw up things and sometimes badly.
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Flex raiding may solve some issues, but not the ones that exclude casuals from the flagship content at appropriately diminished rewards.
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Try #3 to answer this. The forums are behaving oddly for me so if this double (or triple) posts it is unintentional.
 
No it was not a personal slam at you. I was going off the statement that you could not complete it until you added another person.  Great Flex let you do that. Flex is aimed at non traditional group sizes. That does not change the fact that it is not aimed at people who cannot raid at all currently which is the group Yas is trying to adress. For people like me jumping in and doing everything right to the best of my ability will not add up to enough to justify a spot on a regular raid team. I just can't manage that much anymore (aging sucks but beats the alternative).
 
As for borrowing mechanics there is a place for that. However we need to be careful that while looking for ideas we do not focus so much on what has already been done in other games that well miss something brilliant that is totally new.
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I know it wasn't your intent but it kind of feels like you just slammed the ability of me and the folks I raided with...kinda stings a little bit.  The fact of the matter is that flex raiding adds more levels of availability for the content and affords adjustable content.  A group of 20 people that has trouble doing the 20 raid might well be able to progress through the 10 version by virtue of the personal skill and gear of those involved.
 
I can agree with the sentiment that most folks don't want to be carried...but you're not really getting carried unless you aren't contributing.  If you know you're undergeared but you still do the content then you're being carried.  If you don't know fight mechanics but you still do the content you're being carried.  An individual that is concerned with whether they are being carried or not would make the effort to shore up whatever they are lacking before going into raiding so that they can contribute to the effort, even if not as much as someone else with better gear/knowhow/skill.
 
I'm not saying 'buh buh do what WoW did'...well I mean TECHNICALLY yes but...look, the particular mechanic of flex raiding that WoW developed (assuming it didn't exist elsewhere prior to WoW, but I'm not here to debate mechanic origins) would add a level of accessability and ease of completion that, evidently, Wildstar sorely needs.  In the process of adding this type of mechanic to the raids in Wildstar the raid content itself would need some serious going over and would likely be adjusted such that the content as a whole is less punishing.
 
There's nothing wrong with borrowing good mechanics from those that came before you...I mean that's what WoW did. It's what any good game worth its salt does.  Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel and instead just take the wheel somebody else built and adapt it for your own purposes.
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If flex raiding were to be added it would require a thorough going over of the existing raid content, which would likely lead to adjustments in difficulty to allow for a greater ease of completion.
 
An additional group finder (dissimilar from the dungeon finder which is automatic, but allows people to post that they are forming/have formed a group for given content) could be implemented as well to facilitate finding additional members for incomplete or short-handed raid teams or to allow the bold to PUG it.
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no just no to the additional group finder. It is a real hive of elitist jerks or those wanting to be carried. Both groups asking for gearing levels above the level that drops in the content to be done. In my mind it is an utter and abject failure in WoW.
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It's like Help Wanted Ads.  There'll be some that are terrible but you can't throw the whole idea into the trash can over it.  A system that allows you to PUG with a measure of control is better than one that just slings you into a random group with no guarantees.
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There's nothing wrong with something new...except for the fact that something new could wind up not working.  I'm all for innovation in games but innovation takes time and poses a very real risk of failure.  Flex addresses an accessability issue and its implementation would likely summarily involve re-tuning of the current raid content as it is not currently designed to be completed by anything less than a set number of players.
 
It's a tricky issue, but I've come to feel that it seems very likely that the raid content right now, regardless of the implementation of any new or borrowed mechanics, needs to be re-tuned
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I disagree entirely. All it does is make the exclusionary practices more entrenched. I would honestly rather nothing like that be added at all than see that happen again. Particularly since such a thing is dev dollars which could be better spent with new content.
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Stagnation would doom any game. At some point the devs do have to go out on a limb.
 
And example that actually works. I stayed away from wildstar for a very long time because of my arthritis and believing that there would be nothing at all for me to do in a game with such a "hardcore" reputation. When it went f2p I though what have I to loose. May as well try it and if it doesn't work that is fine but if it does I have something new to enjoy.  You Know what I found out? The combat system that worried me so much is actually EASIER on my hands. I don't have to click on every target to switch targets I can just turn a bit and shoot in a different direction.  SOOOOOO much easier. That innovation over WoW is the difference between playing all afternoon and having a blast and playing for an hour and spending 2 days in pain for it.
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I'm sorry but that really doesn't seem to be the case.  Yes, people who create groups to put on there will have standards...because why would you try to raid with some random shmoe in quest greens that doesn't know what they're doing?  Any system you implement is going to get abused by jerks.  If you make an LFR equivalent then you're going to get people who go out of their way to wipe groups or ruin fights.  If you implement a grouping tool that lets you advertise groups then, shockingly, there are going to be some people that advertise ridiculous standards.
 
It isn't about implementing mechanics and tools that are flawless, it's about giving the players what they need to succeed.  It currently seems like not enough people are completing raid content due to the difficulty of that content.  A fix to that could be flex raiding to allow a broader volume of groups in and a grouping tool to allow groups to be formed more readily for that content.  It won't guarantee that people will be able to complete the content or that there will be folks who don't abuse it but it's a step towards getting more people to experience more content.
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Wildstar's combat system is hardly what I'd call innovative, though.  I'm almost positive that Wildstar isn't the first game to allow you to use your abilities without mandating a target being selected first.
 
I mean it's great that it's easier on your hands and all but you can't really call something innovative if it didn't originate in the place you're calling it innovative.
 
...pretty sure that's how innovation works.
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Of the games I play (or have played in the past) it is pretty much an innovation. TSW comes close but not quite as seamlessly. I can only go from my own experience. I am not going to spend days researching every game before I make a comment.
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I can see why you were getting kicked.
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I'm not gonna mandate that you do something like that, it just seems to detract from the point to call it innovative when it isn't.  I mean just as an example games like the Elder Scrolls series have, at least since Morrowind, applied an action combat system that doesn't rely on selecting a target.  Different type of game, yes, but I think it's enough to make the point I'm trying to make.
 
I don't think I explicitly stated as such but I was always kind of under the assumption that providing the tools to facilitate more readily accessible raiding (i.e. raids have a lower minimum and higher maximum amount of players, a tool exists that allows players to advertise a group and afford them control over who joins beyond 'x has y role, put in group') would lead to more people among those who don't normally raid to...well...raid.
 
I mean what's the point of those systems if NOT to encourage more people to try out raid content?
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the difference is total numbers. Sure it would pick up a few more people into the raiding system. More content aimed towards the group that is not raiding because it is too hard for them (or whatever their reason is) would address a much bigger group of people. I am not going to hunt down the statistics from wow but they are out there.
 
We both know this game is in trouble. They have got to find a way to attract and retain more players. Period the end done. What we are really debating is bang for the development buck.
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Do they want the 1% experience or the Welfare 1% experience. Because im sure we can make an adventure where you walk around DS and kiil moodies 
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