126690-why-are-the-sub-numbers-so-low-page-2

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I really liked CL too for the atmosphere and concept. But I've probably run it 50 times or so now, so that stuff only goes so far.
 
WotW is somehow quite repeatable for me, and I haven't gotten bored of it yet.
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Gotta disagree, Jeff... Malgrave is an awesome example of what could be done... I like the idea of collecting resources without combat, as it gives an opportunity for multiple roles within the Adventure.
 
I just think the pacing could be adjusted throughout, with a bit more danger/action when it happens. But it's ok to have slow parts too.
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			And again, it's not the length people don't like (at least the ones I know). The folks who will suddenly find themselves on alts when MT mentioned are the first to jump at a jaunt through SSM, which takes longer than MT. But people find it more fun.	
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why are subs so low ? because the barrier of entry is too high. if you don't put in 1000hours you are nothing in this game.
 
and as much as i believe you need to give a reason for players to keep playing. the current way (aka: hardcore grind for stats) that wildstar promotes for its endgame content (pvp and raid) it becomes a chores for many players and they end up just throwing the towel.	
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If collecting resources was to be fun, and I'm not convinced it can be in a game which draws people in because of it's action combat, it would have to be a lot more strategic than "just click everything in sight, and maybe focus a little more on one type for a bit".
 
Maybe if you were collecting materials to build strategic structures, ala a RTS, but even then, clicking on something is almost never going to be as fun as DPSing it down.
 
Multiple roles is fine- but who really wants to be the "resource gatherer"? It's like being the PL warrior now.
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why are subs so low ? because the barrier of entry is too high. if you don't put in 1000hours you are nothing in this game.
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			Just read through the last 4 pages and there is nothing new so... anything new?	
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Except it is the players who manufacture the belief that they must binge on the game and consume 1000 hours as quickly as possible, instead of spread out over a reasonable period of time as intended. The game would be more fun and last much longer if they did that.
 
 
 
Well good news! The developers of WildStar decided to give players variety, so you can stick to running the ones you enjoy. There are many more play styles and preferences than just yours.
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Except it is the players who manufacture the belief that they must binge on the game and consume 1000 hours as quickly as possible, instead of spread out over a reasonable period of time as intended. The game would be more fun and last much longer if they did that.
 
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Except it is the players who manufacture the belief that they must binge on the game and consume 1000 hours as quickly as possible, instead of spread out over a reasonable period of time as intended. The game would be more fun and last much longer if they did that.
 
 
 
Well good news! The developers of WildStar decided to give players variety, so you can stick to running the ones you enjoy. There are many more play styles and preferences than just yours.
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It's such a shame MMO players focus on leveling as fast as possible.  There's so many things to see, and there's no rush, endgame will be there waiting.
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Of course if people would stop manufacturing their feelings of frustration and lack of enjoyment we'd have a million subs right now rather than 40k! Problem solved.
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Well good news! The developers of WildStar decided to give players variety, so you can stick to running the ones you enjoy. There are many more play styles and preferences than just yours.
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wait, what ?
 
bad game is bad. too niche ? too demanding ? too hardcore ? too boring ? too linear ?
 
there can be hundreds of reasons, but nobody "manufacture their feeling". well, not ALL the players who left... and god knows there are a lot.
take your head out of the sand.
 
check around you... there must be some players leaving. you have to know why they do so (in my case, back last fall it was mostly because of "brick wall, content too hard" and currently its more because of "feels like a chore"). your experience might differ.
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first rule of design (and i'm a designer): it is never the consumer's fault.
 
devs need to come up with new ways of doing mmorpgs.
gw2 tried (and somehow succeeded, at least much more than any wow clone out there), but wildstar was stillborn.
 
the numbers speaks for themselves. and the thread is about "why is it so".
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Adventures were some of the most awesome instanced group content ever in an MMO. But a usual, players optimized the fun right out of the equation instead of playing as designed.
 
 
If you plan on raiding, you should have a raid team available to help you here. Why people think this should be a non-team effort is beyond me.
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Crimelords is probably still my favorite. I've run it at least a dozen times across my various characters. WotW is a fun concept but I just enjoy the music and atmosphere of Crimelords a lot more.
 
Malgrave Trail is just plain awful.
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Really, gotta say I like both Crimelords and Malgrave, Malgrave being my favorite. Anytime I have a guildmate needing to run Malgrave for attunement, I always join in. 
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			Choose your own adventure would work better if the requirements for Gold were tweaked, or the rewards were higher, or there were rotating mechanics or something. I love the idea, but people were always gonna go for path of least resistance.	
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 I happened to like adventures as well.. and yes the groups had optimized it to the point of adventures losing their flavor. Unfortunately one of the darksides of game play is players will always look for the path of the least resistance this is something that cannot be changed its something developers are constantly fighting with in all the mmos. I remember in gw2 getting mad at players for wanting to ditch half the dungeon and go straight to bosses.. I was like whats the freaking point of doing a dungeon if you gonna turn it into a game of frogger. To this day I still have yet to see the other paths in the adventures because getting others to try something different sometimes is like pulling teeth. The choose your own adventure apparently doesn't work well in group enviroments.
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Our Warrior Tank goes in Offgear and DD stance and i heal him. The bosses die so fast with 4 DS DD that you dont even have to think. 90 % of the fights end befor anything happens :)
 
Protostar is a different thing, you cant play every room with 4 DD and 1 Healer.
 
Some fight like SC Endboss  still need a bit of thinking, because if you push to fast he will jump you in the running phase or cast terraformer. The rest ST KV and SWM can be done brainafk with DS Gear. (Brainafk doesnt mean you dont kick the cast if you think that the case Oliver)
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It's because they're running it for what you get at completion. Item imbuements, attunement, gear drops, and now contracts. The carrot comes from completion and people will get that carrot as fast as possible and then move on to the next carrot. If they can get two rewards in an hour by running content quickly they will do so over getting one reward in an hour by taking their time. Of course if your goal is to actually experience the dungeon or adventure content itself you're going to be looking for a different strategy.
 
Oftentimes people skip content like trash because it is not challenging or fun so much as it is boring compared to the rest of the instance. (I am leaving out the possibility of speed runs, which are another type of game play that people enjoy.) One example of this that immediately comes to mind is the dredge fractal in GW2. The trash mobs are tedious in the extreme, but not very difficult mechanics-wise.
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Pretty much this 
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			Is powercreep a significant issue yet? It's certainly going to be for some people, but I doubt a majority. The way around that is to bring in new tiers of content, which I'd love to see over cutting the linear progression entirely ;)	
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It's because they're running it for what you get at completion. Item imbuements, attunement, gear drops, and now contracts. The carrot comes from completion and people will get that carrot as fast as possible and then move on to the next carrot. If they can get two rewards in an hour by running content quickly they will do so over getting one reward in an hour by taking their time. Of course if your goal is to actually experience the dungeon or adventure content itself you're going to be looking for a different strategy.
 
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It's because they're running it for what you get at completion. Item imbuements, attunement, gear drops, and now contracts. The carrot comes from completion and people will get that carrot as fast as possible and then move on to the next carrot.
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The key to preventing this, IMHO, is to ensure that different paths through have different carrots associated with them. Too much of this game is focused on "the more efficiently and flawlessly you run through the content at top speed, the better the rewards are". Is it any wonder that nobody stops to smell the roses when doing so costs your entire group a penalty?
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that can't be changed. so you need to design around this.
that is where achievement oriented rewards could help.
 
but now a big issue with wildstar is powercreep making all past content either irrelevant or not fun to go thru even if they put a reward at the end.
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Yeh it gets tedious when players trivialize content. Thats why I was always was a big supporter on the idea of using vanity for motivating players who happen to be into that aspect of the game to go back and farm old content for the purpose of say a weapon skin that only drops there ect. Pets look like their going to help fill this role somewhat..but I think there needs to be more added to this group.. Achievments can help with this but until the achievments get their own private reward system it will only motivate completionists...
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Achievements should also give something visible in game like a title or armor skin or mount. Vanity at its finest!
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They do.
Almost all Dungeon and Adventure Achievements give you a title when you complete them.
Both normal and veteran.
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			More achievement rewards would be good, certainly. I get the impression they are currently aimed at skill achievements more than grind ones, which I prefer. But the latter needs some love also.	
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Adding a "random" button in adventures would go a long way toward making them more interesting. Adding personal rewards for clicking it would be even better.
 
That being said, I've done the alternate paths in CL, and I didn't find them that much fun. The one adventure that I have enjoyed the alternate paths on was Hycrest.	
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My opinion's based on my own hesitation to sub to this game for so long.
 
It seems that somewhere from 2011 to 2014, the overall tone of the game had changed. I noticed it when I started watching a compilation of all of Wildstar's promo trailers.
 
This is the first video I ever saw on Wildstar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDaao0gExZU
 
This was the last: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnXjw4whVwI
 
One is a theatrical trailer of course but the website at the time very much reflected this funny and interesting exploration & fighting game but when it came close to launch, it was "HELL YEAH CUPCAKE." The overall change in tone immediately turned me off from the game and as I play it, I notice more and more discrepancies in overall game tone where it seems like they were going for one thing and then backpedaled and changed it to something else.
 
I remember reading articles about the payment model and the comparison to HBO and feeling very bummed out because on top of the $60 box price, it was a monthly subscription that I absolutely could not afford at the time.
 
As I'm playing now, I have a few criticisms here or there. I think the game is punishing in regards to gameplay. Fun but punishing. No areas for breaks or relaxation when you're questing because it's constantly a fight and constantly alerting an enemy. I think this is a prominent reality of the game that will be/has been an issue to the average MMO player. And if I had not brought 3 of my friends to play with me, I would not be enjoying myself nearly as much because of how the population size is in leveling zones.
 
To sum up, conflicts in overall game tone, original cost not on par with final product, and difficult gameplay.	
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My opinion's based on my own hesitation to sub to this game for so long.
 
It seems that somewhere from 2011 to 2014, the overall tone of the game had changed. I noticed it when I started watching a compilation of all of Wildstar's promo trailers.
 
This is the first video I ever saw on Wildstar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDaao0gExZU
 
This was the last: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnXjw4whVwI
 
One is a theatrical trailer of course but the website at the time very much reflected this funny and interesting exploration & fighting game but when it came close to launch, it was "HELL YEAH CUPCAKE." The overall change in tone immediately turned me off from the game and as I play it, I notice more and more discrepancies in overall game tone where it seems like they were going for one thing and then backpedaled and changed it to something else.
 
I remember reading articles about the payment model and the comparison to HBO and feeling very bummed out because on top of the $60 box price, it was a monthly subscription that I absolutely could not afford at the time.
 
As I'm playing now, I have a few criticisms here or there. I think the game is punishing in regards to gameplay. Fun but punishing. No areas for breaks or relaxation when you're questing because it's constantly a fight and constantly alerting an enemy. I think this is a prominent reality of the game that will be/has been an issue to the average MMO player. And if I had not brought 3 of my friends to play with me, I would not be enjoying myself nearly as much because of how the population size is in leveling zones.
 
To sum up, conflicts in overall game tone, original cost not on par with final product, and difficult gameplay.
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			I don't understand the whole achievement thing. Why does everyone need a pat on the back and a gold star? When MMO's came out we didn't have any achievements. MMO's are about working socially with a group of others with the same interest to complete the same task. You work hard you get the raid gear or pvp gear, whatever you are into. The hardest work gets you the best stuff. Shouldn’t that work in every situation? Solo content gets you top tear gear is absurd. You can’t even compare or raise the difficulty of solo content to match raid tier difficulty in a MMO that requires a tank, healer, and dps to complete.	
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			Achievements are a fun thing to "check all the boxes" for those of us who like to "check all the boxes". And when done right, achievements can encourage approaching content in ways players may not have originally thought to do so. For example, think of all the raid and dungeon achievements in WoW that you could get by beating a fight in a very particular way.	
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I don't understand the whole achievement thing. Why does everyone need a pat on the back and a gold star? When MMO's came out we didn't have any achievements. MMO's are about working socially with a group of others with the same interest to complete the same task. You work hard you get the raid gear or pvp gear, whatever you are into. The hardest work gets you the best stuff. Shouldn’t that work in every situation? Solo content gets you top tear gear is absurd. You can’t even compare or raise the difficulty of solo content to match raid tier difficulty in a MMO that requires a tank, healer, and dps to complete.
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No reason to hate on achievements. They are fun for people who are into them.
 
I mostly don't care, but they don't hurt me any :)
 
Edit: while I *mostly* don't care, it's always fun to get immortal on a raid boss. Of course, getting Kuralak before 8 egg phase was something I was pretty happy about, even though there's no achievement.  But achievements are fun to get when they point out something cool you've accomplished.	
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Achievements are a fun thing to "check all the boxes" for those of us who like to "check all the boxes". And when done right, achievements can encourage approaching content in ways players may not have originally thought to do so.
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No reason to hate on achievements. They are fun for people who are into them.
 
I mostly don't care, but they don't hurt me any :)
 
Edit: while I *mostly* don't care, it's always fun to get immortal on a raid boss. Of course, getting Kuralak before 8 egg phase was something I was pretty happy about, even though there's no achievement.  But achievements are fun to get when they point out something cool you've accomplished.
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I just don't understand the need to "check the boxes" thats all.
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because.. times are changing.
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I get a sense of satisfaction from achievements
 	
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I don't understand the whole achievement thing. Why does everyone need a pat on the back and a gold star? When MMO's came out we didn't have any achievements.
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			I care about achievement like I care about a sack of shit! And its disgusting how those stupid achivs pops up on your screen like mad making me loose concentration..IS THERE ANYWAY TO TURN THEM OFF?..there is even an achievement for when you fart in front of your computer...come on Carbine...THAT is not content!....BUT..I'm cool with other ppl liking achivement and it dont bother me that ppl like to do them, its just....ITS lackluster as content:)	
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I care about achievement like I care about a sack of shit! And its disgusting how those stupid achivs pops up on your screen like mad making me loose concentration..IS THERE ANYWAY TO TURN THEM OFF?..there is even an achievement for when you fart in front of your computer...come on Carbine...THAT is not content!....BUT..I'm cool with other ppl liking achivement and it dont bother me that ppl like to do them, its just....ITS lackluster as content:)
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I don't understand the whole achievement thing. Why does everyone need a pat on the back and a gold star? When MMO's came out we didn't have any achievements. MMO's are about working socially with a group of others with the same interest to complete the same task. You work hard you get the raid gear or pvp gear, whatever you are into.
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/grins 
 
Welcome to the theme park. Here you walk the course we lay out for you. You may scream and pout but you will experience the content as we decided what is best for you. Enjoy your stay. 
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I think it's because of bad advertising. I didn't even know about the game until last month, and never saw an ad on the internet, as of yet. Unlike Elder Scrolls Online & Final Fantasy XIV where it is being advertised everywhere.
 
I know that writers do review, but that isn't it enough still. The marketing for the game is terrible, on a business level.	
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I was going to post a feedback post, but I think this rather fits here and rather not clutter up the forums. I can understand why sub numbers are so low...I love the game but struggle to feel that its worth my "sub dollars".
 
-- In this day and age, WS's format of leveling feels tedious. WoW can get away with the "kill these dudes" or "use these items" quests because people are simply attached to the game itself, but that's not enough for a new game anymore. People want to feel engaged in the game world and environment, as well as other players, while leveling. This is often done in via events or public quests -- or even simply on-the-fly sharing quest items/gathering nodes. I want to feel an investment in the game world when I level and with WS, I often just feel like I'm just picking up the next quest along with another hundred players doing the same thing.
 
--Social tools are lacking at best. WS's social tools belong in a game that's...5 to 8 years old. There is no in-game official "party finder", there is no public grouping, there is little to no chatter among players if you don't know the player created channels or are in an active guild/circle. And more than that, WS pits other players against each other, even in the same faction, since quest items and nodes are not personal. There's little reason to help other players or engage with other players in the open world (which relates to the leveling issue above). 
 
--Marketing is poor. The marketing that does exist isn't eye-catching or intriguing...and there's not nearly enough of it. You can say "well they don't have the money to do that" but the issue with marketing, on a business level, is that if you don't make an investment in drawing in new players, you won't have be making any money anyway. Compare to Elder Scrolls (which is a far weaker game IMO), FFXIV, GW2 -- you see their ads everywhere. And that's important if your launch was shaky. 
 
--Gaming demographics are changing. I see alot of "Millennials this", "Millennials that", but the fact is, our generation is becoming the power demographic when it comes to spending power and media influence. And if you don't understand what your gamers want, you won't keep them engaged. FFXIV survived by saying "what do FF players want to play" and giving their target demographic a game with multiple activities, avenues for success and social tools (party finders, open world events, etc). GW2 did the same thing. While players can still engage and probably get powerful faster by ye olde traditional "LF2M" advertising and joining guilds/circles, most modern games realize that the current generation of gamers wants more flexibility than that. They also want to be able to pop into a game for 20-30 mins and actually feel like they've accomplished something. They want no barriers to group activities, socializing and casual fun. 
 
--WS's main problem is player retention, both at low and max level. There were easily 30+ people in my gaming group that tried the game at launch and TWO continued to sub after the first month. That's really bad. That tells me there is something patently wrong with the game design if it can't retain more than 10-20% of its original launch population. And I'm not quite sure exactly what the issue is...the game is so much fun but just feels so boring at the same time. I've never had so many conflicted feelings about a game in my life!	
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Not hating on them, I just don't understand the need to "check the boxes" thats all.
 
Edit: Guess I just don't get it.
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My opinion, someone nailed it earlier in this thread when they said they catered to the 20% hard core players.
 
To a large extent it is the same today. Vet Shiphands are easy, adventures as well. Both are boring...
 
Now who ever tells you that dungeons are easy, well just google any guide and they all start with "dungeons in wildstar are hard!!!". and i am not talking Veteran only. You reach lvl 20 and here it is first set of dungeons. You put your dungeon hat on and go in. What do you expect: 45 min or so run, challenge and a few vipes till you figure out the boss mechanic right? What do you get, 1 hour wiping on first boss because someone anyone in your party did anything wrong. Disband and back in queue. Even if you find a group that can persevere and finish it it will take you a couple of hours. 
 
With veterans it is the same, if you out-gear them sure you steam roll (excluding you making catastrophic mistakes), but if you are on par with the gear requirements to enter a veteran dungeon, well welcome to nightmare!!! 
 
60% of most mmo audiences are casual, its a statistic that Wildstar them selves came up with this number. Casuals do not want or usually have hours on top of hours to do one dungeon. Until they change this Wildstar will never pick up. Not with f2p not with anything. sure a few more people will come, some will quit at 20, some will reach 50 and quit there. But the fact is, that unless you are a gamer with plenty of time on your hands and drive to dedicate to this one game only, than my advice to you is, move on, there is nothing for you here.
 
If you enjoy PVP ignore all the text above and just move on...	
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I grew up in the 70s and a good day was 'nobody tried to kick in my teeth or bash in my skull, and then school got out for the day, and as long as the gunshots were far enough away it was a good evening.  ;)
 
But the kids of the 80s-90s were the children of the Babyboomers. My parents had their kids 10-20 years before their peers did... The millennials grew up and a super-bad-day was a day when nobody told you how amazing you were. I work with a lot of millennials in tech now. Its nice to work in one of their companies because they are so used to perks... I get free loot all the time and don't even have to dodge bullets to get into the office anymore (and they roll their eyes when I tell them what San Francisco used to be like).
 
 
 
 
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Vet Shiphands are easy, adventures as well. Both are boring...
 
Casuals do not want or usually have hours on top of hours to do one dungeon. Until they change this Wildstar will never pick up.
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As a kid born in the 80s who has friends born in the 80-90 i can tell you one thing... We *cupcake*ing hate achievements. What we also hate is to  spend more time trying to have fun than we do spending time earning money.
 
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