142787-suggestion-daily-account-bound-cap-on-votes-to-kickdisband

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Dear Carbine:
 
As might be expected, we've seen a predictable upswing in the number of players reporting that they're trying to do the group content through pugs and getting kicked/disbanded at the first sign that anyone inexperienced is trying to do this content.
 
I have no doubt that most members of our community are happy to help new players with PUGs, but the few who don't are exposing our new players to a lot of unnecessary kicks and failed instances.
 
Unfortunately, the game actually incentivizes these behaviors by giving a reward for entering the queue as "Random" without limiting the ability to spam random runs combined with immediate disbands until an easily farmable instance comes up. Obviously there is value to players willing to queue for whatever content pops first, but combined with the ability to disband this becomes an exploitable way to earn gold at the expense of the experience for new players and people who want to run more difficult instances.
 
I would like to suggest that you check your metrics on the total number of times that a vote for kick/disband is initiated, and the total number of players who initiate votes for kicking/disbanding. I anticipate you will find that a small number of players is driving a large number of kicks/disbands.
 
If that is in fact the case, I would like to propose a solution: a daily cap on the number of times you can initiate or partcipate in a vote to kick/disband. No player who is legitimately queueing for a random PUG because they want to run a random instance with a randomly selected team needs to disband/kick several times per day.
 
Thanks for your consideration.  :)	
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			If I could think of a problem with this, I'd say so. I think if Carbine runs data and finds there are some people seriously overusing the feature, than this would be a good solution.	
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			Thats not a bad idea. I can't think of why it wouldn't work ether	
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What the Lemur said.
 
If they run the metrics and find this is the case, then your solution is elegant and effective. I expect you're probably correct.	
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			Not sure why this would matter. You realize other people have to vote yes, right?	
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but the few who don't are exposing our new players to a lot of unnecessary kicks and failed instances.
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Not sure why this would matter. You realize other people have to vote yes, right?
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			I also do wonder what the numbers are for this- how often is it happening?	
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I also do wonder what the numbers are for this- how often is it happening?
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Now that's true. Also, if *everyone* in the group has this cap, and you've maxxed yours for the day ... what's to stop you from sending a tell to another non-newbie in the party and get THEM to facilitate the vote?
 
Finding two other jerkwads in the PUG queue ain't exactly hard to do. Especially if the newblet makes their newbiness known to the whole group.
 
Newbie: "How does this fight work?"
 
Jerkwad 1 is out of Kicks. Send tell to Jerkwad 2 "Ugh. We got a newbie. Can you vote to kick please. I am out."
 
/votekick
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Really what you're asking for wont fix anything, it will just make it worse. If you say someone can only kick or vote for a kick once every few hours, they will just stop getting random groups and only play with people they know. So the 1 random pug that was going to join your 4 man guild run wont get to play at all cause another random pug was so awful they kicked him, OOPS now cant kick again for 4 hours or w/e. Welp, better call it a night.
 
What you want is easier content so more people can do it without failing, thereby eliminating the need to kick for performance in random group content. Note that when you do this you eventually end up with WoW, which while I love the game is a horrendous joke compared to what it used to be.	
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Not sure why this would matter. You realize other people have to vote yes, right?
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I do. But I also realize that groups of 3-4 people can join the queue to stack the deck and dominate the vote.
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I'll quote from a post in another thread that precipitated this suggestion.
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I do. But I also realize that groups of 3-4 people can join the queue to stack the deck and dominate the vote.
 
I'm not trying to limit people from the ability to kick out particularly egregious problems. But if you farm queues and pugs dozens of times a day and quit/kick more often then not, you are abusing that system and need to form a guild/premade group.
 
And to be clear, the reason that I'm suggesting that Carbine check the metrics is because they are the only ones who can tell whether this is a significant problem or not. The rest of us are all, by definition, going off of anecdotal evidence.
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I'll point out that most of the players who are farming dungeons with premades aren't going to kick a player who doesn't know the encounters because that player will most likely not matter to them much one way or the other*. You are talking about a very specific subset of players who would be this mean and feel an entitlement to /kick players. Probably players that are Vet Dungeon geared or in the beginning of GA.
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Hi yasfan,
 
Thank you very much for your feedback on this issue. We appreciate you championing new players with constructive feedback like this. Definitely new player experience is extremely important, especially as we just went free-to-play. We want new players to be welcomed to the amazing WildStar community. While we cannot control how veteran players perceive new players, we're constantly striving to make all players happy on Nexus. We also can't make any promises at this time as to how that manifests, just know that we continue to strive to make the game better for everyone. At any rate, I've sent your suggestion to the appropriate team and we'll see what happens.
 
Thanks again!
 
-Team WildStar	
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			+1 for the Reply... Got love the New folk.... I just gave 5plat to a new Guildie whom had like 5g... they thanked me #hardcore but as I told them.. hard to have fun without money or people like Yasfan to Champion for them... PS I never give money away when asked.	
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Dear Carbine:
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Hi yasfan,
 
Thank you very much for your feedback on this issue. We appreciate you championing new players with constructive feedback like this. Definitely new player experience is extremely important, especially as we just went free-to-play. We want new players to be welcomed to the amazing WildStar community. While we cannot control how veteran players perceive new players, we're constantly striving to make all players happy on Nexus. We also can't make any promises at this time as to how that manifests, just know that we continue to strive to make the game better for everyone. At any rate, I've sent your suggestion to the appropriate team and we'll see what happens.
 
Thanks again!
 
-Team WildStar
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I haven't taken part in any endgame dungeons yet, but I knew without a shadow of doubt that this would happen. Fresh 50's queueing for instances that they are grossly undergeared from are getting kicked and to be honest with you, I don't really blame the people that are kicking them. I feel like limiting the amount of kicks that players can initiate is just a band aid for a bigger problem, whether it's one person getting kicked or ten, these players are having a hugely negative experience of endgame content when there should be systems in place to prevent it altogether.
 
A couple of ideas to fix it:
 
Enforce gear score - Almost every AAA mmo with groupfinder enforces gearscore. This is an anti-grief measure designed to give players a clear sense of progression as well as prevent them from entering content they are grossly unprepared for. Nobody wants to have to carry a player that is literally doing half the dps required by the instance. Only allow players to bypass this restriction by queueing for the dungeon with a full premade.
 
Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
 
They need to put systems in place that cultivate a better perception/atmousphere for new players as opposed to punishing veteran players.	
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I haven't taken part in any endgame dungeons yet, but I knew without a shadow of doubt that this would happen. Fresh 50's queueing for instances that they are grossly undergeared from are getting kicked and to be honest with you, I don't really blame the people that are kicking them. I feel like limiting the amount of kicks that players can initiate is just a band aid for a bigger problem, whether it's one person getting kicked or ten, these players are having a hugely negative experience of endgame content when there should be systems in place to prevent it altogether.
 
A couple of ideas to fix it:
 
Enforce gear score - Almost every AAA mmo with groupfinder enforces gearscore. This is an anti-grief measure designed to give players a clear sense of progression as well as prevent them from entering content they are grossly unprepared for. Nobody wants to have to carry a player that is literally doing half the dps required by the instance. Only allow players to bypass this restriction by queueing for the dungeon with a full premade.
 
Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
 
They need to put systems in place that cultivate a better perception/atmousphere for new players as opposed to punishing veteran players.
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I haven't taken part in any endgame dungeons yet, but I knew without a shadow of doubt that this would happen. Fresh 50's queueing for instances that they are grossly undergeared from are getting kicked and to be honest with you, I don't really blame the people that are kicking them. I feel like limiting the amount of kicks that players can initiate is just a band aid for a bigger problem, whether it's one person getting kicked or ten, these players are having a hugely negative experience of endgame content when there should be systems in place to prevent it altogether.
 
A couple of ideas to fix it:
 
Enforce gear score - Almost every AAA mmo with groupfinder enforces gearscore. This is an anti-grief measure designed to give players a clear sense of progression as well as prevent them from entering content they are grossly unprepared for. Nobody wants to have to carry a player that is literally doing half the dps required by the instance. Only allow players to bypass this restriction by queueing for the dungeon with a full premade.
 
Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
 
They need to put systems in place that cultivate a better perception/atmousphere for new players as opposed to punishing veteran players.
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Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
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Truth be told, anyone who initiates or votes yes should lose their random bonus and be prevented from joining the PvE que again (after the instance is done) for 30 minutes. Not applicable if your team voted to disband. There are problems for that one as well (people would be jerks and go afk to force people to kick them or carry them) but it would stop people from being willy-nilly with it I would think.
 
The most I would do if I wasn't in the mood to deal with players who had never been to the instance... leave the instance myself.
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			The Idea of giving a cap per day of kicks/disbands isn't bad. Maybe make it so that after 10min or so of an instance it returns to how it is on live that way people can give it a shot with new players arent stuck in a instance that either won't finish or will be in lets say a 3hr skullcano. Another thing is the people who do this will get into the instance notice they have no kicks/disbands and ask to be kicked or just sit there until they are. Really just to be a pain. 	
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Another thing is the people who do this will get into the instance notice they have no kicks/disbands and ask to be kicked or just sit there until they are. Really just to be a pain.
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my 2 cents:
 
I like the idea behind this, but the implementation might be hard....
Not in actually granting the feature, but keeping it fair.
 
Look at Final Fantasy XIV:
You cannot kick people in the first 15 minutes, you cannot disband in the first 15 minutes.
While this works perfectly in Eastern mentality sphere's this is abysmal when dealing with the west.
It's often the first few minutes that determine if you have a good group or not. And by that I do not talk about skill/gear
 
So yes, I'd like to see such system, but I'm a bit fearful about how it will be implemented.	
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On paper this is a good idea. Real world applications would cause more problems than it would solve.
 
Some people are always going to kick / leave / etc the inexperienced. It's as simple as that.
 
Some people have the patience to hand hold new players through content and that's great. Others do not. No one should be punished for wanting to play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them.	
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No one should be punished for wanting to play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them.
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This is not true, in and of itself. People should be punished if the way they enjoy the game is to make it less fun for others. Though perhaps not punished by Carbine- but you can't be surprised if there are consequences for being a jerk in game.
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my 2 cents:
 
I like the idea behind this, but the implementation might be hard....
Not in actually granting the feature, but keeping it fair.
 
Look at Final Fantasy XIV:
You cannot kick people in the first 15 minutes, you cannot disband in the first 15 minutes.
While this works perfectly in Eastern mentality sphere's this is abysmal when dealing with the west.
It's often the first few minutes that determine if you have a good group or not. And by that I do not talk about skill/gear
 
So yes, I'd like to see such system, but I'm a bit fearful about how it will be implemented.
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the question is who is the jerk.
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I've never had anyone try and kick or disband because someone didn't know the fight. It's always after multiple wipes without progress or someone queueing up with gear that will never let them pull their weight. Do you honestly think people should be expected to do Ultimate Protogames with someone who's ilvl 50?
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A different story: queued random and got Vet Academy. It was pretty clear that no one knew the instance, so I explained the first boss. We wiped immediately. I explained in a little more details, and we got further, but most people died from AoE damage. I said "great job, got a lot further", but the healer just quit. He was a little undergeared and probably new, but no one had shamed him or anything. I don't really know why he quit. Anyway, I brought in a healer friend and we got the place down, wiping a few times more throughout the rest of the instance.
 
Now in this case, everyone was super nice, and the only one penalized was the one who quit. And I met him later and didn't seem like a bad sort. But I think it does illustrate that some people are going to have to adjust their expectations of what doing dungeons in WS is like.	
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			I'm afraid that if not enough players adjust their expectations about dungeons, then the game will have to adjust to them somehow. Assuming we want more dungeons, anyway.	
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Enforce gear score - Almost every AAA mmo with groupfinder enforces gearscore. This is an anti-grief measure designed to give players a clear sense of progression as well as prevent them from entering content they are grossly unprepared for. Nobody wants to have to carry a player that is literally doing half the dps required by the instance. Only allow players to bypass this restriction by queueing for the dungeon with a full premade.
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I'm afraid that if not enough players adjust their expectations about dungeons, then the game will have to adjust to them somehow. Assuming we want more dungeons, anyway.
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My two cents:
 
I really do think the game needs to do a better job of indicating to a new player that we ought to not be queuing for Vet Dungeons.  I'm a new player with f2p, been playing wow for 8+ years doing hardcore and semi hardcore raiding  and semi high end PvP.  The mentality there is to meet the GS and do heroic dungeons to get gear day 1 of hitting level cap.  Upon reaching 50 here one of the first quests that auto pops up is to do a Vet Dungeon.  Having queued for these at fresh 50 and now with decent gear it is painfully obvious that gear and runing means ALOT in this game, but that is not indicated when you reach max level.  As I have said before a fresh 50 with no runes and no gear should not be in a Vet Dungeon, but it isn't their fault for queuing.  Furthermore it isn't the experienced players fault for kicking them, they ought to, all I wanted to see when I got kicked was an explanation.  It took me scouring reddit, the forums, and reaching out to what little friends I had made in game that had played before.  It may not be an epidemic as it were, but I went through about 4 I think dungeons of getting removed with no explanation (one called me a scrub, I'm a big boy I can take it but it doesnt provide helpful feedback) and plenty of dungeons after buying pvp gear that disbanded within 1 wipe, not allowing me to see anything beyond the first boss, making me a liability in other groups.  
			
				
	Edited October 13, 2015 by Drakunis	
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Drakunis, I totally agree the game needs to guide players in this case.
 
But for the record, I have never kicked anyone for being undergeared, I've always mentioned it if it's a problem, and I hbe initiated a disband after wiping on a boss a few times after explaining that the gear level of the group is too low. I don't think its right to kick someone without explanation.
 
But the biggest point is, the game needs to guide people better. You shouldn't get that dungeon questikn until ilevel 65 or so.	
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this goes in the correct direction but i would rather take the guy with runes and 2000AP/SP and +5amps/aps than the guy with 2500AP and 20 higher itemlvel who does not have a rune in it and 3 amps/aps.
gearscore is a terrible system.
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			No, this would be bad design and this does not fix the problem either. I understand the problem, but this is NOT a solution.	
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Carbine solution to "Gold or bust" was to remove epic gear from adventure and make gearing even more retarded..
cant wait to see what they drag out of their asses this time around.	
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Carbine solution to "Gold or bust" was to remove epic gear from adventure and make gearing even more retarded..
cant wait to see what they drag out of their asses this time around.
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No- they made epic gear available for non-gold at a lower drop rate.
 
And then they made gear progression MUCH better in future drops.
 
I'm not sure what you are thinking about . . .
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They removed guarantied epic gear from gold..
and killed the adventure queue
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And yet all we have had since is band aids and a lot of promises " in the future"
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I see this idea of putting a cap on vote-kicks going one of two ways.
 
1.  The cap is so high it won't matter and no one will care; or,
2.  The cap is so low that dungeons become a breeding ground for trolls.
 
Here's how this works, there's different kinds of stupid, and one of those kinds of stupid is what I call the "I think it's funny to *cupcake* people off" brand of stupid.  This kind of stupidity is a identifying trait of the Common Internet Troll (Trollius Dumbassikus).  I don't care who has the cap, the kicker or the kickee, the Trolls will find a way to use it to annoy the crap out of other players.  "I'm just going to stand here at the entrance of the dungeon and /dance, go ahead and kick me.  Oh that's right, you can't because you had to kick someone else earlier, LOLOLOL!  Guess you have to disband!"
 
This brand of stupid is the kind of stupid where people think circumventing systems with good intentions to prevent bad things from happening, and then using those systems to annoy other people, somehow makes them "smart" and they think it's "funny".
 
If you think it's bad now, seeing a handful of anecdotal posts from people claiming they were kicked for no reason, wait until those posts are replaced a metric ton of posts titled "Another group disbanded, couldn't get rid of the Troll".
 
For those of you who got kicked:  Stop getting upset by it.  The people who kicked you, they're deuchebags, you didn't want to run a dungeon with them anyway, trust me.  There are plenty of reasonable and mature people out there to play with, don't let the asshats get under your skin.  Seriously, people who do that crap are the same kinds of people that will claim that you have no work ethic because your space hamster isn't wearing the same gear that their squirrel girl is wearing.  Do you really want to let people like that bother you?
			
				
	Edited October 13, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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"Gold or Bust" was terrible for the game.
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I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Gear progression hasn't been a problem since drop 3.
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			there's possible to report unfair kicks, right? If not ,there should be!And I never used the kick system for its true purpose, however what we do do is "kick me, I can bring my tanking character into this and the run will go better", then the tank has to be kicked to be reinvited as DPS because of the "selected roles are full". Then someone gets their armour broken, goes to their house to repair and is unable to enter back into the instance until we kick/reinvite like 3 times. You already have to wait 5 minutes between kicks.  	
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is this thread about gear progression ? did u read my second sentence?
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Sorry, I'm having trouble following you. You called gear "retarded" earlier, which I assumed was bout gear progression.
 
So your problem is not being able to not dual queue for adventures and dungeons? OK, yeah, I want that some day as well.
 
But that seems way off topic and not related to kicking people, "gold or bust", or "retarded" gear at all.
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Ah, I'm finally following.
 
I haven't had a problem AT ALL queueing with likeminded players for stuff like gold runs through LFG. There is even a nice circle for that on Entity.
 
The easy way to avoid new/ bad geared players is not to queue and rather put your groups together manually. If you are looking for a gold run, group finder was never the right way to do it.
 
(And honestly, if you had a groupfinder that allowed people to sign up for gold, half the undergeared/new players would sign up for it anyway. I can't tell you how many times players with no hope of getting gold have asked if we've lost gold in a pug dungeon run. New people don't realize how hard gold dungeons are).	
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(And honestly, if you had a groupfinder that allowed people to sign up for gold, half the undergeared/new players would sign up for it anyway. I can't tell you how many times players with no hope of getting gold have asked if we've lost gold in a pug dungeon run. New people don't realize how hard gold dungeons are).
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Thats why i want the options to filter out people that has never been in the dungeon before, never done silver / gold, insufficient itemlevel, not full amp/ability, etc.
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I think people are less likely to kick others in this game actually, more often than not I've been with players who refused to kick new people no matter what. They'd have the player leave by themself.
 
Also Wildstar got a 5min grace timer (I believe?) before you can initiate kicks at all. In early Wotlk days when LFD was still new, geared raiders would delete newbies within seconds of entering the instance. I think most of us have seen a much worse situation with kick-happy people than WS currently has, if there's currently one at all.	
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Starting on a new character I have been a part of many failed groups, I wouldn't say it's elitist players doing the kicking but people that want to put together runs that take almost zero time, as soon as more then a few wipes happen they are ready to disband and move on. It seems to be a time vs reward thing. The people truly using GF to meet new players, and to compleat content are getting a pretty raw deal. I haven't seen any of the gold or bust mentality but I have seen the second boss in KV and the Fire Boss in SSM destroy more groups than I would care to mention.
 
The group finder is a tool that is designed to be used by players to compleat content right now that simply isn't happening. I don't want to see a real nerf to dungeons, I like that they are hard when you are geared in dungeon or less gear, I'm not sure how they fix it unless the make the dungeons used for dailies and attunement  a little more friendly and all the dungeons thereafter a little harder. So far I have found getting through the GF is harder then compleating a GA run something about that seems a little off to me.
 
This has really been a standing issue since the original launch so I doubt Wildstar is going to make any wholesell changes.	
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Starting on a new character I have been a part of many failed groups
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The proposed solution misidentifies the problem, and thus will not solve it.  Quoting myself from another thread, which got moved off GD:
 
This is the price of having a random group finder.  You can't remove kicking, or you make groups vulnerable to trolls.  You can't keep kicking, or you make individuals vulnerable to trolls.
 
I much prefer an "advertisment" system, like GW2 has.  A global posting goes up, and people ask to join.  Forces you to meet everyone you group with.  Doesn't eliminate the problem (trolls/elitists can easily make their own postings and lure people in), but it lets each player manage it on their own terms.	
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This is not true, in and of itself. People should be punished if the way they enjoy the game is to make it less fun for others. Though perhaps not punished by Carbine- but you can't be surprised if there are consequences for being a jerk in game.
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Being expected to drag a clueless undergeared player through content they have no business attempting isn't being a jerk. Neither is kicking them for it. There are restrictions on content for a reason. People that spend the time to learn the content and gear appropriately for it shouldn't be made to feel like jerks because they don't feel like carrying someone that wishes to bypass the hard work and skip right to the rewards.
 
If the people doing the kicking are being verbally abusive (the only way I can conceive your above quote to be true), that is entirely another matter; but no one said anything about that, only kicking inexperienced / undergeared players from the group.
 
Like I said, you can white knight this cause all you want. It's not going to change a single thing. You play your way, and that's great. Nothing wrong with having people that have the patience to hand hold new players, everyone starts somewhere. However, it shouldn't be expected of everyone, and others shouldn't look down their nose at people that don't wish to play in that manner.
 
That's what I meant by allowing people to play the way they wish to play.
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			WoW has a real Looking For Group tool.  It allows players to create groups to run content and the creator sets an item level or Proving Grounds requirement (Solo queue instance that teaches a particular role's requirements for Heroic Dungeons, by default to queue random you need silver) and players who don't meet the requirements won't even see the listing.  Combine this with a simple starter quest a 50 needs to complete that covers the basics of runing and the challenges Veteran content provides and I think you could at least alleviate some of the issues new players are experiencing.  Expecting a player new to the game to spend hours researching individual dungeons, watching strat guides, spending time learning the rune system outside of game is a bit silly.  As a new player I'm not asking Veteran players who want to power through pugs and knock out dailies to carry me, but a simple "Dude you aren't geared for this, try adventures and expeditions then come back when you have gear" would have been a lot more productive than "oh another noob" kick or nothing said at all.  Before you say it was an isolated event, been in several  Vet dungeons now, and new players get vote kicked based soley on seeing their ilvl, not a single word said.  Maybe I'm a white knight, but I take the 15 seconds out of my time to tell the new player what is to be expected in the dungeon and the fastest most effective way to get the gear.	
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Maybe I'm a white knight, but I take the 15 seconds out of my time to tell the new player what is to be expected in the dungeon and the fastest most effective way to get the gear.
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			If you don't pull your own weight i'll vote kick/disband or leave.Dps is around 3k dps for STL KV. 3.5k dps SC SSM and 4k dps Proto's. This isn't high, A Slinger with 2.4k AP with basic runes ( crap you get from killing quest mobs )  Does around 3,4k dps just holding down Quick Draw.Healers. If you cant heal drokks dot then thats a vote kick because we cant do a single thing to make you heal more.Tanks. This really depends on the player. A good tank with 2.4k sp can juggle a GA geared dps with ease, New tanks can't do this so if they can hold threat off a player their own level then they should be able to queue.I have had more f2p players leave dungeons than i have kicked. Like 10x more, They don't say a word then they die and then they leave. Or a tank cant hold threat so he leaves. Vet players know that when they pug a dungeon they have a chance at getting a fresh 50 group. Why is it so hard that these fresh 50s don't seem to understand the reverse. You might have to tank a DS geared dps, It's a slim chance but it is there.At the end of the day queue at your own risk. Want to learn at your own pace join a global channel and ask you know the old way of getting a group ( Applies to both fresh and vet players ).	
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Vote kicking is a symptom not the cause. A symptom of a poorly designed LFG system. It's unfair on inexperienced players to not give them proper guidelines and to allow them to queue for content they lack the gear for, it's throwing them to the lions (or should that be trolls).
 
Wildstar's LFG system is lacklustre compared to other MMOs. The LFG system needs three things:
 
1) A built in gear check - an average item level requirement. Most players don't want to be the weak link but often have no way of knowing.
2) A short explanation / guide for what lies ahead. Yes, ideally players should check out YouTube, but we all know that doesn't always happen.
3) A checkbox to say if you're "inexperienced", "veteran", "willing to mentor inexperienced players". This information should be used to try to match people on a smarter basis.
 
Yes I know these measures might slow down the queue, but I think many players would prefer to wait a little longer to get a group that is likely to be solid and not fall apart at the first wipe, or have some elitist troll kick whoever misses their first interupt.	
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Vote kicking is a symptom not the cause. A symptom of a poorly designed LFG system. It's unfair on inexperienced players to not give them proper guidelines and to allow them to queue for content they lack the gear for, it's throwing them to the lions (or should that be trolls).
 
Wildstar's LFG system is lacklustre compared to other MMOs. The LFG system needs three things:
 
1) A built in gear check - an average item level requirement. Most players don't want to be the weak link but often have no way of knowing.
2) A short explanation / guide for what lies ahead. Yes, ideally players should check out YouTube, but we all know that doesn't always happen.
3) A checkbox to say if you're "inexperienced", "veteran", "willing to mentor inexperienced players". This information should be used to try to match people on a smarter basis.
 
Yes I know these measures might slow down the queue, but I think many players would prefer to wait a little longer to get a group that is likely to be solid and not fall apart at the first wipe, or have some elitist troll kick whoever misses their first interupt.
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Strongly disagree with the suggestions on how to fix it.  Instead of more rules and checkboxes, you need to hand more tools to the players.  Let them fix the problem by controlling the situation themselves. 
 
You list your group, dexcribe what you are going to do, and pick a category to list it under.  That's it. So if you are looking for a group for Dungeon X, you click the Dungeon X tab.  Read the group adverts.  Adverts contain a description, and the names of everyone currently in the group.  If you see one that says "50 Vets ilvl 90 only" you know that's going to be an elitist group and can avoid/seek it out according to your own preference.
 
Now, this assumes that people will be honest in their descriptions, there will be bad apples.  But now there are tools and information to help you spot and avoid them, rather then being at the mercy of a mindless matchmaking algorithm.
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I can say i just had a super great group experience which has not been the norm since I started F2P so there are good people out there looking to help new players through.
 
I think a small gear check would be a good idea, the problem with dungeons is that your in there working for dungeon gear so the check would have to be small enough like ilevel 54 or 60 and that would still leave some people upset. granted it would be a shade higher for both the protostar dungeons.
 
Anyways I was just excited that I had a good group experience in something that wasn't STL or KV.	
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 I genuinely believe that the veteran or long-time players are more likely to use the votekick function as opposed to fresh players, but that's irrelevant; at the end of the day it is up to Carbine to create a system where players don't feel compelled to use the votekick as much, if at all. The current system creates a huge divide between the power of players entering instances and that is mostly why these problems are arising.
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Yeah this is what I came to add. A 'premade' of 3 friends has an undue amount of power right now, and if it is being consistently abused something needs to happen.
 
I'm actually trying to remember the discussion threads when vote kick was being added, because I honestly thought there already were limits. Obviously if it is a consistent problem, whatever they did wasn't enough.
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I genuinely believe that the veteran or long-time players are more likely to use the votekick function as opposed to fresh players, but that's irrelevant; at the end of the day it is up to Carbine to create a system where players don't feel compelled to use the votekick as much, if at all. The current system creates a huge divide between the power of players entering instances and that is mostly why these problems are arising.
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You list your group, dexcribe what you are going to do, and pick a category to list it under.  That's it. So if you are looking for a group for Dungeon X, you click the Dungeon X tab.  Read the group adverts.  Adverts contain a description, and the names of everyone currently in the group.  If you see one that says "50 Vets ilvl 90 only" you know that's going to be an elitist group and can avoid/seek it out according to your own preference.
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Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
 
They need to put systems in place that cultivate a better perception/atmousphere for new players as opposed to punishing veteran players.
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Eldergem/Glory/Renown/Omnibit bonus - As far as I know this was introduced in FF14 but is hugely succesful. Groups get double the token currnecy if they complete an instance when one or more of the members is new to that instance. You actually start to hope for new players in your instance instead of dreading them and as a result, everyone has substantially more patience when dealing with new players.
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I really like the idea of including a Double Rewards system when a new player is in the group if it is their first time running the dungeon.  I'm not letting go of the removal of the Repair Costs idea, though.  I think combining these two things would very positive way to shed inclusiveness in a new light. 
 
Remove the mechanism that makes more experienced players feel as though they are being punished for being patient, that can also potentially be punishing for people who are just trying it for the first couple of times, AND reward everyone with a little bonus for giving less experienced members of the team a chance to learn while expanding the player-base?  It's a Win-Win-Win in my book.
			
				
	Edited October 14, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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As a player who has a thread on this very topic, Pre-F2P-re-loaded https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/128326-dont-accept-pugs-in-nfinder-if-not-wanting-to-help/am sad that this issue was not address before the masses were invited. 
 
To this day I still don't pug vet dungeons & PvE content, I que norm mode in vet gear to experience the game, I still have a very sore spot for this issue	
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I really like the idea of including a Double Rewards system when a new player is in the group if it is their first time running the dungeon.  I'm not letting go of the removal of the Repair Costs idea, though.  I think combining these two things would very positive way to shed inclusiveness in a new light. 
 
Remove the mechanism that makes more experienced players feel as though they are being punished for being patient, that can also potentially be punishing for people who are just trying it for the first couple of times, AND reward everyone with a little bonus for giving less experienced members of the team a chance to learn while expanding the player-base?  It's a Win-Win-Win in my book.
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			I would love to see a group findder that groups based on iLvl or achievements.  That first dungeon I ran and accomplished with 4 others that never experienced it and downing the boss was a stroke to my ePeen	
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I don't think this would solve the problem. People who are irritated/don't want to waste a lot of time or are just a-holes won't be any less toxic if you limit kicking. I do like the extra reward bonus for doing it with someone new though, if that were implemented i would advertise to help a new 50 through dungeons. I also like the idea of clear instructions about what you should do before hitting vet dungeons at lvl 50, because it was the same for me. I immediately queued into vet without thinking, and got very lucky to be carried without complaint by my first few groups and got enough drops to pull my weight after. 
 
I always give a group at least a few chances. Recently on skullcano we died to first boss because the dps ignored the totems and it killed the healer. I told them, they got *cupcake* done and the fight went smooth as butter. We only wiped 3 or 4 times total in the dungeon because they listened and learned even though none of us were far past ilvl 80.
 
When that doesn't happen, i try to be nice about it if we need to kick someone or disband. I say either that I'd rather not spend 2 hours wiping on a single dungeon or that you really need better gear or get better at avoiding crap. Unfortunately many vet bosses have serious gearchecks for dps (tanks and healers are usually sufficiently geared) so even if everyone plays well you'll still die. 
 
Other bosses are a skillcheck rather than gearcheck. Mordecai in particular is relatively easy even with subpar gear, but the mechanics destroy everyone. I spent two different occasions wiping for 2 hours straight on him with pugs until I finally figured it out and haven't died to mechanics a single time the past few dozen attempts. I also consider myself a fast learner and decent at platforming games, yet it still took me a few hours. So when i get into skullcano with someone or a group that has issues on the first boss, I REALLY don't want to spend the 3+ hours teaching them the fights while raking up a plat in repair costs
 
Those two challanges together mean I really don't even blame the people that instantly try to disband. Proto training and games are particularly awful with pugs since they're both strong gearchecks AND skillchecks. I share this to help those who are new to 50 to understand that you aren't being kicked just because people are a-holes, usually they would just rather not spend the extra hour or two it'll take on average to carry a new player through, because they will HAVE to be carried unless you're an insanely fast learner. Wildstar is a HARD game that most mmo players are unaccustomed to especially starting at vet dungeons, and not everyone has the patience to deal with teaching a player for hours when you get no reward other than a fat repair bill and warm fuzzies	
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Break SSM into two dungeons, part 1 and part 2. It's too long. No one wants to do it. 
 
And no I don't wanna hear how fast you and your buddy ran ssm one time. Don't care.	
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			SSM isn't that long now that they changed it. Maybe just a tad longer than SC, but not much.	
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