Fact or opinion

* See also Canon
* See also Real World
* See also Expanded_Lore_Canon
* See also Authoritative Narration
== Below Is Detailed A Disagreement About a Certain Wiki's Content Containing Wikiwriters Opinions, Instead Of Simply the Facts ... ==
Excerpts of a disagreement about my calling out other peoples speculation being presented as 'Fact' in a WIKI -- About what is Within its main Wiki articles. After many 'Talk' postings which I made about various main article text being just Opinion, I then ALSO added some mentioning of alternate opinion/interpretation/speculation based on what was seen in the game. 
Suddenly posters started stating : "There was to be 'no speculation/opinion presented on the pages" -- Thats AFTER I offered more than a few different interpretations of the game content to the many SPECULATIVE interpretation already there. So following that apparent policy : I then commenced with REMOVAL of a all 'opinion' and 'assumptions' and 'interpretations' and 'speculation', leaving just the game facts. Unfortunately, Certain people there did not like the removal of THEIR interpretation/speculation. That led to alot of back and forth 'Talk' conversation.
NOTE - A proper game site should only offer what is IN the game, and not try to interpret it.
----
A Small Issue
Someone Started It Off :
I'm have an issue with one of the wiki contributors and I was hoping you could intervene. User:xxxxxxxxxxxx (occasionally known as some other nameless Wiki Contributor with the numbers xxxx... at the beginning of the IP address or User:xxxxxxxxxx when he bothers to sign in) has been engaged in a campaign to make Andrew Ryan and Augustus Sinclair look like poor, victimized pawns in a world stacked against them.
I wouldn't object to this normally as I believe he's entitled to his own opinion. However, I feel that some of the recent edits he's made have crossed a line. His edits on xxx xxx xxx to The Sinclair Deluxe article border between overly biased revisionism and trolling. To summarize:
In the middle of the line "Though attractive enough to draw people in, the hotel was constructed with cheap materials," he writes "what did you expect, Parkay flooring and Carrera marble ?" . Later on, between "Even in Rapture's heyday, Sinclair himself called the hotel a "slum" and its rooms "ratholes."," he interjects with "But compare it to Hestia Chambers or Artemis Suites -- Looks pretty good by comparison - and as seen in BS2 it is 7+ years after Sofia Lamb became the landlord".
He's also removed or altered several lines of text in that article he either doesn't like or finds biased against Sinclair ( though it seems difficult to be objective with a character who's an inch away from a Snidely Whiplash cartoon ). The same act has been done in the Sinclair Spirits article because he objects to evidence used from the diary Sinclair Deluxe & Sinclair Spirits. The whole debate is outlined on the Talk Page where he refuses to listen to opposing arguments from his peers.
Again, I'm not trying to stop him from voicing his opinion, as his criticisms against the wording on some of the pages have improved the objectivity of the Wiki. He often brings up some very good points about the game designers' personal agendas with the series. I agree with him that the BioShock series could be seen as being anti-corporation and anti-capitalist games, but he's using the articles and Talk Pages as his personal soap box.
I apologize for dragging you into this, but I've previously found that speaking to him about the subject is only a temporary fix. I hope that he'll listen to an Admin if you talk to him as you have more authority than I do. Talk to him or do nothing, whatever you decide, I'll respect your decision. Thanks for your time.
YYYYYYYYYYYYYY (talk) xx:xx, xxxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
.
MY RESPONSES :
:On the other hand, my edits remove biased descriptions that are not seen actually in the game.   If you want to be consistent with what you've (xxxxxxxxxxxx) said before, then the text should NOT include such biases.   "Sinclair built his hotel out of inferior materials" ( so it is the reason it is now falling down ?? )   Where does it state that in the game ?   It is just a biased assumption.  Take a look at the rest of Rapture ( even the BS1 state of other (??) 'well built' parts of Rapture - and in BS2 we have Sinclair Deluxe viewed 7+ years after that ... )     MY other WIKI changes are similar.
: You claim The Sinclair Deluxe Hotel was built after the Big Crash ( a whole separate argument ) ??   When is that said to have happened ( when is it mentioned in-game ) ?  I've postulated at length that 'Crash' was long before the Kashmir Attack ( this conclusion was last left undecided ) - You think Sinclair built the Sinclair Deluxe AFTER the 'civil war' had begun ?? That's another one of the of the unsupported assumptions I've removed from that article.
:Similarly the Sinclair Spirits issues : You base your position on a *REMOVED* (never in game) Audio Diary  Again it might be best to put that in the Trivia section instead of a main section where it would be misinterpreted as Canon  - Anyway, read the Audio Diary for what it actually says, not what you assume it says ( as I last stated ).
:There is no Sinclair Spirits in Paupers Drop  ( probably why they removed the Audio Diary -- because it didn't make sense anymore )
: You say : "refuses to listen to opposing arguments"   
:???
:I listened and then responded by refuting them - and the argument is still going on ... (on the talk page) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 08:16, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
----
VVVV A Mod responds
I'm all for factual accuracy, but statements of opinion, speculation and commentary are not for the mainspace. So, for example, stating that the Sinclair Deluxe was in shabby condition would be accurate and worth adding, as it's mentioned in Audio Diaries and the like, but justifying why it's in such a shabby condition would fall under commentary. Looking at the Sinclair Spirits discussion, I'm siding with yyyyyyyyyy here: it's pretty clear Sinclair is talking about himself combining Sinclair Spirits with the Sinclair Deluxe to fleece the population, and it should be noted as such. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) xx:xx, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
My Response to Mod ^^^
:Shabby condition is NOT what's being debated here - How it got that way is.
:This is what the main wiki article says : "Though attractive enough to draw people in, the hotel was constructed with cheap materials." "constructed with cheap materials" is an assumption/speculation isn't it ?   The ref notes was just an experiment to see how it worked, but now shouldn't the verbage it was commenting/refuting instead be eliminated?
:As for the Sinclair Spirits & Sinclair Deluxe  - as mentioned, THAT audio diary was never included in-game  yet its being quoted in 2 different articles as if it is Canon in the main sections.   There is no sign of a Sinclair Spirits at Paupers Drop/near Sinclair Deluxe - not even a sign - ( maybe why they (devs) removed it from the game - the Limbo Room sells booze/whatever ). One of my 'peers' instead say it is justified because there might have been one in some blocked off section or another that they could have gone to the actual (ritzy) one in Fort Frolic when the Audio Diary specifically says local gin joints being Sinclairs 'good idea'.
I Continued Some Reasoning :
:The verbiage in the Sinclair Deluxe main wiki page (also reverted)  says : " Sinclair admitted in an audio diary that once he got a citizen dependent on him, he liked to keep them that way, so he milked them for what they were worth. One of these methods was by offering the buildings tenants discounts at his liquor stores," 
:Is any of this factual or just supposition ? ( Isn't THAT simply reading into the Audio Diary more than what is there ? )   Sinclair talks about wanting to sell booze to some 'bankrupt fat cat' ( a type he, in other places, makes derisive remarks about ).   Isn't this Sinclair thinking that being the one to sell to them was a business opportunity ??   I don't recall seeing anywhere talk of him giving greater discounts on the booze sold to his renters.   Those things were much of what I had removed as being 'speculation'.
-
SO, is my logic above too hard to follow for why those old wiki texts were incorrect/speculation ??
----
Mod stated VVV :
The wording for the quote "Sinclair admitted in an audio diary [...]" is strangely formulated and slightly inaccurate, but it is nonetheless true that Sinclair used Sinclair Spirits in conjunction with the Sinclair Deluxe to fleece the population. That Audio Diary is not in the game but is nonetheless canon , as are the Audio Diaries from the Cult of Rapture website that do not contradict in-game canon. The quality of the hotel's materials can be easily established in-game, and while focusing on the construction materials might be a bit too specific, the Sinclair Deluxe is clearly shabby.
If the argument of your peer was that there might have been a Sinclair Spirits out there, then that would be speculation. However, it is nonetheless correct that there is one in Pauper's Drop, again as evidenced in the Audio Diary. Seeing as you only travel through a small portion of the entire district, the fact that you didn't see one in-game doesn't contradict its existence. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 09:59, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
^^^ WHAT ????? (( I think there are many people who will disagree about that being "Canon" ))
THIS is the Kind of Logic from the moderators of that wiki 
Firstly, I think they needed to actually look up the definition of "Canon" -- If they were going to throw that term around.
SO I Then Replied : 
: quoting the mod :"it is nonetheless correct that there is one in Pauper's Drop"
:I disagree.  There is no evidence that there WAS a Sinclair Spirits there.   Neither does Sinclair declare there was one.   
Fleece is a commonly seen as a synonym for 'cheat' -- which I also don't agree with as a description of what Sinclair might have been talking about wanting to do. ( No evidence of 'discounts' or selling them anything they couldn't get anywhere else or dependence or other suppositions the main pages currently contain )
I reply with an attempt to demonstrate why the logic they want to use is faulty by using this alternate type of "logic" they seem to be employing : 
: "I can think of many many things that MIGHT have been behind locked/blocked/inaccessible doors and 'other parts' of every section of Rapture/Columbia . Using that kind of logic you could claim anything .... SORRY - THAT'S NOT REALLY VALID EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THE ASSUMPTIONS I WAS REMOVING.
:So YOU are now STATING that  the merest hint/turn of phrase in an Audio Diary  (or other mention)  of an idea for things NOT actually seen in the game IS now the standard for including such speculatively derived information on the main pages of this Wiki ??? ( and then referencing it as a  basis for conclusions ) ??? xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 12:32, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
Unfortunately such reasoning doesn't appear to have worked much and just logically countering them seems to infuriate them even more.
The person doubles down : 
What I am stating is that this audio diary is evidence that there is a Sinclair Spirits in Pauper's Drop, as it would make no sense otherwise. Similarly, Sinclair's attitude and business practices are also clear evidence that he is trying to cheat the population out of their money. It is now you who are engaging in commentary. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 18:55, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
I Reply to ^^^ :
:It made no sense then in the game as presented which may have been the reason it was intentionally discarded.
:So NO, it is NOT evidence that it existed in the actual game, just that they had contemplated and even gone far enough to create that asset and then decided not to use it - it is like claiming all the notes a Composer scratches out of their work musical score ( or even ones they tear up or burn ) - That is illogical - They are NOT the final product as intended to be presented to the audience.  
:Sinclair is also not cheating people out of their money unless you think that 'giving people what they want' is cheating them.   He understands (one assumes) that people have delusions, but that only makes for opportunities, and it is shown that he is good at beating out other people to making a business from those opportunities.    He makes the better deal.
:You do remember the guy he has doing piecemeal work assembling syringes (Audio Diary "What_a_Snap") which offsets (Audio Diary) "Profit_Coming,_Profit_Going" -- oft pointed to by the ignorant as evidence of Sinclair being dishonest or whatever.
:But if you know anything about real business you can realize those tiny viewpoint vignettes in the game distort/leave out most of the details of such a business relation - the risks and expenses Sinclair takes, the fact that he's giving that guy a job he might not otherwise have, all the other aspects of the business transaction to Ryan that Sinclair has to work to arrange and organize.  It is the same with everything they show of Sinclair in the game (and the vagueness with so many other aspects - they are playing of the ignorance of your typical player) - they are trying to make Sinclair out 'the bad one' so you distrust him, when the opposite is eventually shown (an attempted 'twist' I guess).
:But being a 'game', realities like that are mostly obscured to make out Sinclair as a cardboard cutout villain in what first and foremost is a shoot-em-up game. xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
I then ask : 
BTW what other 'admins' are still active ?  They might have a different take on your opinion here. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 01:35, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
----
Then they start spewing irrelevant/incorrect gibberish :
Why do you keep on saying that it was removed ? It wasn't removed (ie- taken out with malice or deliberate intention [or "torn up & burned" as you alluded]), it was made available via social media (the Cult of Rapture website, which was set up by the game creators before the launch of Bio2 to spread the narrative and get people excited).
The 1) "GOOD GENES RANT", "Gatherer's Flu", "Your Place of Work", these were actually "removed." For one reason or another, they were deliberately made unavailable and can only be found in the game's code. The diaries from the Cult of Rapture aren't considered "removed" in the deliberate sense. Ryan Amusements (Audio Diary) isn't in the game (it's from the site), but we still acknowledge that Sofia Lamb consulted with Ryan Amusements even though it's not mentioned within the game.
Why do you assume that we all "don't understand business" or hate capitalism. It's really condescending of you to "explain" it to us each time. The inflammatory verbage on The Sinclair Deluxe will be change to something more objective, but the fact that we use words like "fleece" or "cheat" to describe Sinclair's actions here on the TALK PAGES (as opposed to the main article) is not the issue. It's really a waste of your time (and credibility) to rebuke those comments here. Those are our opinions and we're entitled to them.
In the real world, there would not be a problem with Sinclair's business practices. But here's the thing: He's a Video Game Character (NOT some misunderstood historic figure, Not your friend.). Specifically, he's supposed to be a villainous character right up until he finds redemption with Subject Delta. He's meant to represent the worst of capitalistic greed via his Machiavellian or opportunistic actions. His home field trial for Plasmids, in which he supplied a terrified populace with untested, dangerous substances, contributed the most to the loss of Rapture's humanity. He's an extreme, but he's also a cautionary tale. If you can't understand that you've entierly missed the point of who Sincalir is.
"what other 'admins' are still active?" Class act. yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy (talk) 03:14, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
^^^ I reply :
:And Yes a "class act" --- to wonder if the rather strange standards being given above are the consensus of the other people in charge of this wiki ??   Having an 'admin'  declaring it (Sinclair Spirits) is there (in Paupers Drop) even though it Is obviously NOT there (in Paupers Drop) is rather hard logic to follow for most people.
: You said : "which was set up by the game creators before the launch of Bio2 to spread the narrative and get people excited"   --   You mean just like all the trailers for Infinite ( with so many story mutations it is hard to keep track of them all ) ???    Or will you now claim that's just not the same ??      Don't we (the wiki) usually mark specially the things that aren't from the actual game ? ( ie- the Novel seems to NOT be considered Canon )
:Sorry, it is generally assumed that WHATS IN THE ACTUAL GAME trumps external content -- particularly when the externals stuff is in contradiction with what's in the game.'
.
Someone game this dim reply :
: " Why do you assume that we all don't "   
^^^ To Which I Replied :
:Why do you assume most people DO ( and that the vagaries are left in rather as one-dimensional painting of many of the game characters ).   DO most people know that that $12 pizza they buy has 25cents worth of materials in it ??   Are they surprised to hear it when they are told ?     You're Assuming that I'm assuming that you hate capitalism is your assumption.  As I've said before : the makers of the game are painting many distortions because it is the setting they want to justify a Failtopia that players can go pew-pew in.
:You now defend the loose use of "fleece" or "cheat" to describe Sinclair's actions -   but then at the same time  you assume all of Sinclair's colorful verbage then is Literal AND must be interpretted that way instead of the condescension/disdain he expresses  ie- 'slum' 'rathole' etc...  ( many times of those with pretensions who he delights in seeing fallen from their high perches ). You can't have it both ways. 
I Continue explaining (( Perhaps they just don't like being lectured on how they are wrong/illogical ??? But then thats what it takes - far more words reviewing their mistakes point by point. )) :
:In the real world,   
:Isn't one of the big aspects of BioShock (Rapture) the Nostalgia  - which is some presenting of that world from 60 years ago - a place build in rejection of where that world had already gone.   So is it not justified to expect a little real world logic to be included in a game of that type ?????
:Sinclair 'their villain' gives people a choice, which is more than you saw Sofia Lamb, Fontaine or Sander Cohen give the people they used/murdered.  Sinclair sells people what they think they want, or with a better deal than his competitors.    No, the worst of 'capitalism' is Fontaine extorting his workers into low wages and killing them if they disagreed. Sofia doesn't even believe in capitalism. Fontaine only if its by HIS rules.
It gets usually messy when you then have to refute their supporting evidence ...
.
Else-person mentioned : 
:contributed the most to the loss of Rapture's humanity   ( yet more interpretation )
They are talking about Sinclair again - and I replied :
:- You assume a mechanism to justify a Multiplayer game AFTER THE FACT of the original two games' content ( no mention in them once of this Consumer Test Program ... ) is evidence?     Did he kidnap the people or brainwash them into volunteering ??  (all dozen or so people --  we aren't sure weren't the ONLY dozen or so involved ... (again vaguaries with no detail)   
:I don't recall seeing any players there laying on the ground having seizures from their Tonic/Plasmid malfunctioning or experimental guns exploding in their faces (do you??)  So obviously not quite so 'experimental'  (this all making assumption that the whole thing isn't like I said : just a flimsy RetCon to justify the developers making money on a MP addon). xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 06:17, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
At some point they just can't take such logic ( usually where they start to shriek and run away ... ) 
----
And the Mod response :
:Okay, now you're just getting into major opinionated debate, which is not what this is about. Unfortunately for you, anon, I am the only active admin on this wiki, and seeing as you're alone in disagreeing versus two other users (my authority as admin doesn't come in here), you are not in a position to express your opinion as fact. You have shown that you are clearly not objective in this discussion, and that despite your projection, it is you who are trying to put forth your opinions into the mainspace. Please take a step back and take some time to cool down a little, as you're not going to be productive in the emotional state you're in right now. --zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (talk) 07:40, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
^^^
Yes Unfortunate ... and uses the usual mod BS to excuse their incapability to understand what I'm talking about. 
I reply as the 'mod' apparently doesn't want to waste their time anymore ... :
:SO Nobody else should then be able to express their opinion as fact .... OK, I went with that and WHEN I removed 'opinion as fact' certain 'peers' didn't like it.
.
Hmmm, So I got Usual tactic of argument by namecalling ... Not quite cricket in the debating rules. A 'mod' doing that ...
SO I Read that 'mod' the 'Riot Act' about their bias - which usually sets off their 'had enuf at someone daring to argue' mode :
:BTW., I notice you don't talk that way to the other poster whom you happen to agree with ( please read their approach to argument again to see them labeling 'troll', etc... ).  I was just answering argument point with argument point, which you are free to misinterpret as 'emotional'.    Using the other's words.... "class act".  But I just see it as being able to explain my position.  And some people cannot handle that apparently   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 10:44, xxxxxxxx xx, xxxx (UTC)
:Heh, I particularly like the accusation of being emotional -- its an old loser tactic - when you cannot argue with Fact, Logic or Reason  to  just declare the other sides argument as null, one way or another. BINGO !!!!
:Its Very strange (inconsistant) when the company-authorized Novel "Bioshock: Rapture" is NOT considered Canon for the wiki ( there is alot of debate and talk on TVTropes about 'Canon' ). 
:BUT then some Audio Diary kept on a (promotional) website (and NOT used in the game) somehow IS Canon ( read the arguments above on both sides of that to see what I am talking about ).  
:My reccommendation would be ( for a WIKI who says they dont want opinion or assumptions ) to : JUST have the words of the Audio Diary there, and let Sinclair speak for himself, and let the people who read it make up their minds for themselves.
THEY somehow read into that Audio Diary text (NOTE- REMOVED FROM GAME/NEVER USED IN GAMEPLAY) some meanings which were (on that WIKI) used to create some unsupported opinions/assumption about Sinclair (All which I'm talking about and refuting).
----
And so it went on for a little longer. I wasn't able to convince them (or this one person) of their Preconceptions and Inconsistencies. One of them started Reverting all my changes in bulk ( childish or simply lazy-dishonest ?)
A big problem with this Wiki/posting system is that it DOES NOT have indent replies/inserts in the TALK pages : Argument/counterargument quickly becomes a mess ( Try matching up reply arguments with what they are referring to, and it suddenly gets very strung out/disjoint and repetitive, and often something (or particularly) the Mods hardly even try to read.
On that Wiki they never did come up with a integrated way to offer multiple interpretations of the game happenings -- which might have added alot for the readers, to not just have the site be a regurgitation of the game events ( and they have it left it as limited/one-sided speculation/interpretation ).
----
== SO I CAME AWAY AND CREATED The Rapture Reborn MMORPG Wiki ==
== NOTE- I openly declare : The RaptureRebornMMORPG Wiki has and allows MUCH opinion. ==
So we won't have any such problems HERE, and any/all Alternate interpretations can be discussed intelligently.
If A MMORPG is ever made, there will have to be much interpretation and discussion and decisions about what the real story was ( the MMORPG cannot be as VAGUE as the Solo games were ).
--- --- --- --- ---
.
.