146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-8

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== Content ==
			I expect we're not going to ever see eye-to-eye, so I'll leave you to your thoughts on the matter.	
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Game launched with no RP- or RP-PVP servers. 
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			When I got to 50, there were two daily zones. So that shows you how #hardcore I leveled :p	
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Haha yeah, I didn't hit level cap until after the Defile was released. xD
 
What can I say - housing and roleplay are huge distractions!	
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Dailies and vet shiphands and such didn't exist at first, but we knew they were coming. I wouldn't hold that against them or as some evidence that WildStar wasn't interested in providing more "casual", easy-access content. Plus there were adventures for easier content.
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Game launched with a "Go Gold or Go Home" mentality that still almost exists to this day in some respects.
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Just clarifying, but did you mean just no RP-PvP? We had Evindra as an RP-PvE server in NA, but think the EU got the shaft as I recall in that matter.
Just wanting to make sure what you mean by this...
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Ty, Evindra was the RP-PVE server because WE, THE PEOPLE made it the RP-PVE server.
 
WE did that. Not Carbine. The role-players gave Evindra that title, not Carbine. We were told, under no uncertain terms, that the RP community was too small to worry about, a niche, a tiny little thing that would survive or not on whatever servers we could carve out a niche.
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You do remember that the *intent* behind offering that great gear for gold was to give non-raiders something to work for without having to raid, right?
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Oh sure, I get the "intent" and always have. When the community turned it into a not-funny joke within (oh, I dunno) TWO DAYS after launch, all the "intent" in the world is exactly 100% pointless.
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I am fully aware of what occurred as I was there and I played on Evindra. We were a "subset" and RP-PvP a subest of a subset.
However we advocated for that server and I wish I had a screenshot but it was flagged distinctly as RP-PvE last I looked at it. Unless someone has proof otherwise I distinctly remember Evindra being actually tagged in-game as RP-PvE in the listing and on forums. If I'm wrong I'll happly admit to being wrong if anyone can show me otherwise.
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just curious as to what is the main issue preventing people from doing end game content is?  is it the difficulty, the time investment, your lack of knowledge on progression?  this thread has clearly devolved into something counterproductive with no real value.
 
if it is difficulty, is practice out of the question?  have you even tried and what was your specific experience?  pug, guild group, voice comms?  dungeon or raid experience, it is pertinent.  if you havent even attempted to raid your opinion is kind of pointless because you really are speaking from no real position.  to make an opinion on something you have never done or even attempted to do is just silly.  i say if you havent, please try to get into a group and give it a shot.
 
the time investment.  if this is your main reason for wanting dumbed down content, i would say it is not really valid.  i think there can be improvements made to current things in game to fill this hole.  maybe more boss in the box encounters that are tuned lower than normal raids for those without much time and where a pug could be successful with some strategy involved, not just smash loot pinata.
 
if it is lack of knowledge, are you really too lazy to research.  if you feel like it is a chore to do, then you should probably not play mmo's or the content that would require a little bit of information gathering.  honestly this is not a pain for me, i enjoy it.  to each their own.  but to say that is hardcore or elitist is not true.  people who enjoy this content do this routinely, because this is what they like to do.  do you really want something in this game that involves no mechanics what so ever.  even expeditions have mechanics.  
 
an lfr that groups people with raid groups is not bad.  an lfr that is a queue for a raid would be fine if it was like ffxiv, when the first raid finder came out.  it was a stand alone raid solely designed for lfr.  and when the new raid tiers were added the older versions were added to the queue system.  i am not sure how much has changed it has been quite a while.  but wanting to nerf current content for the simple fact that you dont have time, or lack of knowledge are not really valid.
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But my whole point was that the "vision" wasn't "Gold or Nothing" or "Raid or GTFO". It wasn't #hardcore by intent. Their failed execution did it, though they address the "Gold or Nothing" pretty darn quick (I believe the day after I first digned 50). Which shows you just how little grace there is for a game at launch. "Gold or Nothing" was an itemization issue for a very short period of time, but the game still carries that stain.
 
All of this goes back to my point that their vision includes non-hardcore players. And the feedback is good because it seems they are much better about creating housing/raiding content than other content, though the feedback I'm seeing for their events is promising.
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Well, again, look back at the original Attunement process and you'll see that "Raid or GTFO" kind of was the whole point.
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Background: I'm a lifelong gamer married 40s no kids...lots of time and a fair amount of disposable income to spend on gaming. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade, though I don't claim to be a veteran or even of above average skill I have participated successfully in many MMO endgame activities (from raiding to group dailies and everything in between).
 
Opinion: WildStar is a beautiful game, I love the graphics, I love the lore, I freaking adore the character models and I really enjoyed the challenge of leveling as it required a lot more attention than in other games. Got to 50, found a great raiding guild to give me some guidance since I knew entering endgame would be more difficult than in other games I've played. They showed me the ropes, helped me gear up and got me attuned, they even brought me along for the first boss in GA that very same day to unlock the raid gear vendor for me and help me further gear up. My ilvl being 84 and fully runed they encourage me to start queueing for vet dungeons for more practice, glory, gear and runes...fair enough. I found the vet dungeons teeth gnashingly hard but I struggled through for as long as the groups would have me, usually bowing out after my death would wipe them on a boss the third or fourth time. After three separate 2 hour attempts on the last boss of Skullcano with three different groups, including a guildie group, I'm left with the realization I simply don't possess the hand/eye coordination or reflexes to participate in WildStar's endgame. I'm not crying or ranting, this is a simple realization of the limits of my playing ability. However, if a fairly average player like myself who is no noob when it comes to games of this sort can't hack it, I fear for the future of this game given who it's publisher is.
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I didn't, and I did hold it against them.
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 I don't honestly see how a LFR will work in this game because from what I see, the player base doesn't like to use the group finder feature for Adventures and Dungeons, so why would they use a Raid Finder feature? 
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The moral of this story is that almost everyone will play group content when it is implemented properly and highly accessible. I have no doubt whatsoever that the stellar duty finder is a key component to FF's success and that if WildStar had a similar system, it would enjoy a very high player retention.
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			I have no problem with the lfg tool currently in the game. I just don't use it for one simple reason. I enjoy doing dungeons with my guildies while we hang out on ts. That to me is far more enjoyable then joining a random group where noone talks.	
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Likewise. If I mis-remember, than I'll be the first to admit it. :lol:
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I can say pugging the five man dungeons is harder then raiding with an organized guild. I've enjoyed raiding in Wildstar but endgame is pretty stale event, nothing has really changed in over a year as far as new raid content, the gap from GA to DS is still ridiculous mostly because getting that first boss down in DS is hard.
 
I love the combat in this game but the group size of twenty and the time commitment for me have just made enjoying it for the long term almost impossible. I have enjoyed seeing the DEV's start to bend on the hardcore only mentality, I hope they can really make this game shine. A year is a long time to ask players to wait for a new raid, let alone an expansion. Here we are at about a year and a half and it feels like we just came out of beta. The loss of Stephen Frost,and Tony Rey is pretty substantial and as far as I know they still haven't hired a studio head.
 
I'll come back and check out wildstar if I see any changes coming that are worthwhile, Launching a Halloween and Christmas event after over a year of nothing won't bring me back...
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 That's the issue of accessibility in this game summed up in a very nice nutshell.
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Imagine a fight with no enrage mechanic or dps check
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 Imagine a fight with no enrage mechanic or dps check, than just throw in all tanks/healers and will die.
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This sounds like it could be a pretty fun and interesting fight without the same old hackneyed MMO mechanics behind it to make it "difficult"
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Just imagine .... that's the problem, no-one does. It's 20-man hardcore raiding or GTFO.
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It wouldn't be interesting at all. You would just stand there forever until it dies. Completely boring.
 
Not sure why you are putting "difficult" in quotes.
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It wouldn't be interesting at all. You would just stand there forever until it dies. Completely boring.
 
Not sure why you are putting "difficult" in quotes.
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Some of the most interesting encounters I've done in MMORPGs have been ones in which the fight rages on for as long as you can cling to staying alive, and is never actually impossible to beat until you're all dead on the floor.
 
It's certainly much more interesting than "Oh, wait, we lost two DPS, it is now literally impossible for us to beat the DPS check that's coming up another 6 minutes into this fight. Everybody, we may as well deliberately wipe ourselves out and start over."
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I'm responding to the quote you posted, where he said "make everyone go tank and healer" and you said "sounds interesting".
 
I'm a "white knight" for this game? I guess I don't even know what that term means, since I've frequently identified places it could improve and have been vocal about my complaints when I've been upset over things they've done.
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You are assuming that if a fight does not have an enrage timer or a dps check that it is then a straight up tank and spank? I mean, you're just being willfully ignorant at this point. There are encounters in this very game that you white knight so fervently that I think are interesting and cool and don't involve lazy enrage or dps check mechanics. Come on man.
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Some of the most interesting encounters I've done in MMORPGs have been ones in which the fight rages on for as long as you can cling to staying alive, and is never actually impossible to beat until you're all dead on the floor.
 
It's certainly much more interesting than "Oh, wait, we lost two DPS, it is now literally impossible for us to beat the DPS check that's coming up another 6 minutes into this fight. Everybody, we may as well deliberately wipe ourselves out and start over."
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Want to join my club?
It's called the "People called White Knight for pointing out flaws".
We're growing pretty well in size.
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Some of the most interesting encounters I've done in MMORPGs have been ones in which the fight rages on for as long as you can cling to staying alive, and is never actually impossible to beat until you're all dead on the floor.
 
It's certainly much more interesting than "Oh, wait, we lost two DPS, it is now literally impossible for us to beat the DPS check that's coming up another 6 minutes into this fight. Everybody, we may as well deliberately wipe ourselves out and start over."
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there is even a challenge if you kill it withe 8 (?) platforms or fewer.
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20 man raiding, if you want to raid. It doesn't need to be hardcore. And there are other things to do besides raids in this game.
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Ironic then that there's a dps check in the level 10 starter dungeon if this thread is correct.
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It's funny that people would take issue with DPS checks, because there are actually very few hard DPS checks in the game. Mostly it comes down to not having enough people to execute all of the mechanics. The DPS check in PA is one of the only ones.
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Ironic then that there's a dps check in the level 10 starter dungeon if this thread is correct.
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LFR is one thing. ..but that dont stop you pugging. ..its the lock out that is soo unforgiving for puggers.
 
You know my example. ..I felt soo left out. ..did not kill the x89 boss thing after 15 wipes. .No problem. .fun fight.
 
Joined a pug three days later. ..This time maybe I could do it I thought.
 
Fly up. ..hyped up. .all others inside. ..BAM. .locked out. It will Open for you in three days. .!!! Wtf. ..how is that fair. .
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A few from the top of my head. A decent and well structured endgame progression system for casual endgame players. (that would include raids, not just crappy world bosses) Raids that lock players to the loot as opposed to the instance. The ability to queue for more than one thing at a time. A group finder that encourages players to help each other, rewards the lesser played roles and encourages people to play group content of all levels so that the queue times are accceptable. The ability to engage in endgame PvP (Warplots) without having to wait for hours. Account bound everything so players don't have to repeat the same grinds on alts. The ability to find advertising guilds quickly and easily in game. Some form of content gating that keeps people out of content they're not prepared for would also be nice to prevent griefing.
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This thread suddenly made me realize how much a multi-queue system would be a massive fix to warplot and arena participation.
 
If I can queue for all three PvP modes, and it just puts my queue timer on hold when I enter one, everyone can do the same. Some point in the day, arenas will start popping regularly as more people can actively queue for them and BG during downtime/when queues are slow with no negative impact. Warplots are next - if just 60 people can sit in that queue with NO negative impact to what they can do while out of one, eventually it WILL pop.
 
I am happy you guys are already making it so, or working on it in some capacity already.	
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We are actively working on / looking to improve most of the things on your list.
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Experience the raids in this game, then give your opinion over what is more interesting/fun.
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it's funny how you claim to know about raiders.
Make your posts even more wrong then they are.
It's a shame they removed Tex's answer, but the point stands.
 
Your drivel is nothing but incorrect information about topics you are clueless about.	
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You can stand by your point all you want. Your lack of experience makes it invalid.
 
The people who have experienced raids in the game overwhelmingly enjoy then and find them fun. Carbine should absolutely not listen to someone who hasn't experienced them about changes to improve them. I don't care what other games you've played- if you haven't experienced these encounters, you don't know what they lack.	
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			Could use a less punishing intro boss to DS ... What :)? Shit's hard if you're carrying half your raid. Purge 2 OP ^_^.	
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You can stand by your point all you want. Your lack of experience makes it invalid.
 
The people who have experienced raids in the game overwhelmingly enjoy then and find them fun. Carbine should absolutely not listen to someone who hasn't experienced them about changes to improve them. I don't care what other games you've played- if you haven't experienced these encounters, you don't know what they lack.
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 :huh: I don't give a *cupcake* whether a check is hard or soft, whether it's a big clock counting down numbers or the number of tiles left on the floor or how large n is in the 2^n spread of Kuralak's corruption or anything else. It's there for one reason and only one reason: to ensure that raid groups have a specific, predictable composition that takes all those options in build and playstyle and narrows them down to a tiny window of viable alternatives so that the behavior of the raid group is reduced to something as predictable as the behavior of the raid boss.
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			I would love to see metrics for raids for this.	
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Since I have went from having meaningful discussions in the past on these forums to meme's....here's one that I think fits the bill for this thread (and on the eve of the big movie for the year)
 
 
Edit -  apparently I can't spell, corrected that.
			
				
	Edited December 18, 2015 by Bacon_21	
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The extreme situation of a raid composition and narrowing down viable builds that you use actually describes a hard check. A soft check makes sure you can't roll over fights while having half of your raid dead, using an optimal build or playing your class at a very high level are not required to meet a soft check.
 
Kuralak and some other encounters used to be a hard check back at release. Since then power creep and a change to the egg's buff that increases damage has turned her into a soft DPS check. It can be easily done with all classes and any build you want, as long as you don't have too many people dead. Same goes for pretty much every other boss - they removed hard checks out of the game, with maybe Hardmentor being the only exception to that. And no matter how little "*cupcake*s you give" about this difference will change the fact that there's a difference.
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There was a DevSpeak where they had Timetravel talk about Attunement and I've heard that the look of horror on the studio head's face was just priceless.
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then the essential questions become "Well, how possible is 'technically possible'"? and "Well, what is 'playing at a level that is high enough'?"
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Much appreciated, I've found the resistance to it very puzzling for exactly the reasons you described.
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One word, stagnation.
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You can't just abandon the overwhelming majority of your players for some phenomenon which ostensibly happens but not quite. 
 
The top 3 raiding mmos in the west (WoW,FF14,SWTOR) all use raid finder and different difficulties of the same content. If it didn't work, trust me, they wouldn't be using it.
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You can't just abandon the overwhelming majority of your players for some phenomenon which ostensibly happens but not quite. 
 
The top 3 raiding mmos in the west (WoW,FF14,SWTOR) all use raid finder and different difficulties of the same content. If it didn't work, trust me, they wouldn't be using it.
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That's quite obvious to anyone with a brain (as I have played 2 of those 3, been an accomplished raider in one) nor did I deny it, my point still stands as I witnessed it firsthand in both.  I'll just leave this little nugget I found here.....
 
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Let's put it this way: My raid group 15-manned X-89 last night, and we haven't even fully cleared GA.
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If you don't have the time or dedication to raid proper and you'd rather want faceroll GA than more dungeons or (rewarding) adventures then fine, but stop pretending it won't impact proper raiders/burnout doesn't exist.
 
Oh, and it's always nice to see a dev responding, thank you TT!	
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			FYI, my group finder no longer works. I would have to update it for API changed and I'm not good enough at promotion to get it the widespread use it would need to be as useful as I wanted it.	
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Actually, I think I'll stand with my statement, since it's already based on personal experience in a different game that--amusingly--also used telegraphs, action combat, and wide build diversity to give you an enormous range of options in gameplay. Then it took all those options and flexibility and dynamics away with instanced group content that tried to offer up unforgiving encounters that require near-perfect execution of pre-scripted attack plans with highly constrained builds as a substitute for actual on-the-fly dynamic encounters where the attack plan is the first casualty and you never stop and kill yourself because it's just quicker and more effective at achieving your goals than staying alive and fighting it out to the bitter end.
 
What you find fun, I do not find fun. Doing what I don't find fun with 19 other people will not make it more enjoyable than doing it with 4 other people, and I've already done plenty of that.
 
The word "wrong" seems like a very poor choice of response to a statement about interest--it's an inherently subjective topic. May I suggest "Disagree" as a more appropriate alternative? Maybe even "I disagree." if you're feeling verbose.
 
Yeah, because I love opponents that don't fight back.  :rolleyes:
 
I do not raid, you're right. However, I do know quite a bit about the raids and the player behaviors and personality characteristics that they actively reward and promote. I also participate in plenty of group content, both in this game and others, to have a good feel for what I do and don't enjoy.
 
The topic that I was speaking about in the text you quoted was what what I do and don't find interesting about encounters in group content, a topic that I am in fact the only person qualified to comment on. So with all due respect, if you want to know who the arrogant person is in this little exchange, get a mirror and take a good long look.
 
 
 :huh: I don't give a *cupcake* whether a check is hard or soft, whether it's a big clock counting down numbers or the number of tiles left on the floor or how large n is in the 2^n spread of Kuralak's corruption or anything else. It's there for one reason and only one reason: to ensure that raid groups have a specific, predictable composition that takes all those options in build and playstyle and narrows them down to a tiny window of viable alternatives so that the behavior of the raid group is reduced to something as predictable as the behavior of the raid boss.
 
And if you're into that, more power to you. 
But I'm not, and--at least according to pretty much every metric and analysis I have ever seen--most people aren't. 90% of the people who play MMORPGs never even try to set foot into a mythic raid, and 98% of them never bother to finish one.
 
That is great news, TT. I am very glad to hear it.
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Wind, if I may offer some advice?
 
You may as well stop talking. Yasfan NEVER, EVER stops. Ever. Unless you plan to dedicate the rest of your natural life to this thread, Yas is going to continue to post "witty" retorts ad nausuem until everyone else finally gives up or dies. We've seen it over and over. Once Yas starts giving "input" and sinks into a topic, there is no shaking them loose, no changing their mind. Then, victory can be declared and the forum can move on until the next Yasfan-infested thread pops up.
 
It's a pointless, endless, circle-jerking vortex of a feedback loop.
 
You can't win.	
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Wind, if I may offer some advice?
 
You may as well stop talking. Yasfan NEVER, EVER stops. Ever. Unless you plan to dedicate the rest of your natural life to this thread, Yas is going to continue to post "witty" retorts ad nausuem until everyone else finally gives up or dies. We've seen it over and over. Once Yas starts giving "input" and sinks into a topic, there is no shaking them loose, no changing their mind. Then, victory can be declared and the forum can move on until the next Yasfan-infested thread pops up.
 
It's a pointless, endless, circle-jerking vortex of a feedback loop.
 
You can't win.
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Okay maybe it's not perfect, but it's still better than giving players nothing at all.
 
To me LFR is and always has been a lark, something I do when I play the game with my friends or family, or just something to do when I've got an hour to spare. It's a great carrot on a stick for the majority of players and the one of the main reasons I still bother to play mmos. Having raided in the three previous mentioned games (WoW 40,20,25,10man and LFR, SWTOR story modes, FF14 raid finder and a couple of savage modes) I usually manage to have some fun. If you're a traditional raider who steps into a LFR raid expecting everything to be completely organised and perfectly executed then you're going to have a bad time; at the same time alot of people will get a laugh out of it, some people might even get loot.
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Finally someone admits it!  It's like a christmas miracle for this thread!   That aside, I completely agree that it is a lark and I never expect anything out of it usually just do it as a braindead activity for myself.  Being that I am only 23 years old my "relevant" raiding experience only extends to swtor.  Played WoW (and before that I was on swg pre-nge) as a kid and raided off and on in normals but it was nothing serious.  What I witnessed in swtor (and the problem only got worse over time) was that as our own raiders got burned out on having no content to complete some would take breaks and never come back or life happened and they just quit.  This leads to a situation where we try to recruit (and we try our hardest to recruit noobs who might've been scared and coached them through it) but nothing comes of it.  This leads to us either stealing people from other raiding guilds or looking for their defectors and picking them up.   I can remember one particular situation where we literally broke up a raiding group (after some drama had went on behind their end) to get members.
 
That's why I said the word stagnation.  We shouldn't have to resort to stealing/defectors (or help from another guild) just to accomplish the hardest content at the time.  Eventually we broke up due to not being able to find people on a consistent basis (even if we were willing to coach them) and scheduling issues.  Most players never see this nor do they hear about it and that's the most dangerous part.  I just want some recognition that introducing something such as LFR has its pro's and con's and I just wanted confirmation of that as I more than willing to concede to the points you presented.  Heck this problem goes on in WS as I think Foul can vouch for me :P
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People don't raid because they need a new shiny
People don't raid because they need to flaunt their e-peen on some list
People raid, because they want the challenge of organising a group of people
People raid, jump through hoops, because the above challenge gives an awesome feeling when that boss goes down
Not a single instance/game in the world can give you this experience when you play alone.
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I've seen your sword, Orr - and it makes me super-envious.
 
 :lol: ;)	
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I've seen your sword, Orr - and it makes me super-envious.
 
 :lol: ;)
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Wind, if I may offer some advice?
 
You may as well stop talking. Yasfan NEVER, EVER stops. Ever. Unless you plan to dedicate the rest of your natural life to this thread, Yas is going to continue to post "witty" retorts ad nausuem until everyone else finally gives up or dies. We've seen it over and over. Once Yas starts giving "input" and sinks into a topic, there is no shaking them loose, no changing their mind. Then, victory can be declared and the forum can move on until the next Yasfan-infested thread pops up.
 
It's a pointless, endless, circle-jerking vortex of a feedback loop.
 
You can't win.
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 What a jerk.
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			Reading these forums, I'm starting to have doubts that I ever knew what the words constructive criticism, logic and discussion meant :(
			
				
	Edited December 18, 2015 by beattlebilly	
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Man, who does he think he is discussing topics in a discussion forum. What a jerk.
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Nobody in their right mind is advocating to make the whole game easier............that would be senseless. The idea however is to increase accessability. Your percieved problem with this is that it will perpetuate "bad play", but the cold reality is that sentiment is just false. There will always be players who do not improve through there own choice or just plain plateua at a certain level.
 
Telling players they need to make this game a part-time job through research and practice just to be successful the BASIC level 50 content (vet dungeons) is not only unrealistic, it's borderline laughable. You have have 6+hrs a day to dedicate to gaming, but John over here with a wife/job2kids may have time for a dungeon or 2 before dinner/bed which equestes to probvably what? A couple hours? How realistic do you think it is that he will take the majority of that free time to do RESEARCH on a video game that is required before he can succeed? I think the much morre likely scenario is that he will just choose one of the MANY other MMO options on the market that allow him to spend those couple hours in a manner which is both productive and fun without having to homework on a video game.
 
Here's a final thought for you, who's more likely to spend a large amount of money on Wildstar, the unemployed/student who have the necessary time needed to become and expert.........or the working father who uses this as his hobby. (Hint: It's the guy with disposable income and an interest in finding relaxment).
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this game is failing for a reason. A game that looks and plays this good, while being f2p does not go unplayed without cause. League of Legends sucked chunks before it went f2p, by making the game more accessable by removing the "burden of knowledge" they created the most successful online AND COMPETITIVE game in history. So unless Carbine starts to acknowledge that need OR these stay at home elitists start ponying up their SSI, Wildstar will continue to have a tough road ahead of itself.
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Honestly, as someone who's been here since the early beta days, I think the NUMBER ONE REASON for WildStar's lack of popularity is ...
 
IT'S NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT
 
Yup. It plays differently. The game systems are different. There is a learning curve. The dev team is smaller and doesn't work as fast. The decade of rough edges that WoW has had to grind off, WildStar has had a tenth (or less) of that.
 
Basically, at some point during WildStar's production, the MMO landscape (and MMO Player Base!) changed completely. The landscape became homogeneous in it's adherence to "Whatever WoW is doing" and the player base became (on one hand) older and more time-constrained and (on the other) younger and more entitled, having had grown up playing smoothed out games.
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Well, as I've said before, this community has a way of being it's own worst enemy. For a long time, this forum was filled with Uber-Leets and Hardy Hardcores of every stripe. Any mention of changing things, lower difficulties, adjusting mob densities, ANYTHING that basically asked for Crabine to tone-down or readjust something was met with ten pages of screaming, howling, casual-bashing lunacy. Hell, even today, just mention "LFR" or "Multi-Difficulty Raids" and the few remaining Screaming Hardcores will come out of the woodwork like cockroaches to bash you, call you names, tell you "git gud" and do everything they can to shout you down, shut you up or run you off.
 
And, sadly, for a long time (TOO FREAKING LONG) Crabine listening to those people, because those were the of players who seemed to understand the Stephan Frost HARDCORE OR GO HOME idiocy that launched this game. Launched it straight into the trash bin of MMO History, that is.
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1)  Research tiem commitment is greatly exaggurated
2)  Researching ANYTHING is just basic sense, mate.  Spend 10 minutes looking up a build and use it for 100 hours.  WHY NOT?
3)  I don't think dungeons are meant to be "basic" content.  They are not super hard, but i would call them intermediate content.
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If Yasfan played the game as much as he/she played the forums, they'd be killing avatus by now.
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 If you don't want "scrubs" in your raids, why don't you raid with a good guild???!?!?! *severely confused*
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You think " Go play a different game" Or "This game isn't for you" is toxic? 
 
Oh you would love the LoL community. If someone doesn't have time due to personal life ect then MMO's aren't for them. Bam Boom ahfilqehygfkfhlgh done simple understand?
 
Does content get added so it can attract those types of players? Yes do you know why? MONEY. Do you know what else those players bring? Complaints. So fkn many of them, Because little things are added to try and get those people to drop a little cash more stuff needs to be added to keep those dumb asses happy because they don't understand the genre they have stepped into. Then when content is added once it is finished they expect more content straight away. Do you know how long raiders have waited for the next tier? Guess.
 
The people who sit and cry for more content to be added week in week out really are that stupid to of started playing an MMO.
 
Oh i cant prestige in COD but look at all the other guys max prestige thats not fair, I better go complain about it.
 
Shit you not thats what you sound like. Not casuals because i know a lot of casuals who play MMO's because of the gameplay even though they know they wont see all the content. The people who come on here and complain aren't casual they are just stupid to believe that content should be made around the way they want to play and use Wildstars lack of population as an excuse to try and back it up. Like no the reason this game failed wasn't because it wasn't casual friendly its because the skill cap was aimed so high.
 
Has the skill cap changed? Yea everything has been nerfed into the fkn ground. Is it still hard to a degree? For some yea it is for others we have been bored for ,months because of the skill ceiling being dropped so others can access the content.
 
Yet here yous are still bitching and moaning. " Oh the content isn't accessible " Do you actually believe that or are you trying to get told to stfu by others on the forums so you can cry elitist?
 
Oh god yasfan " Incredibly self-centered" Thats amusing coming from someone who understands nothing about the content in the game at the moment yet wants content to be added so YOU can play it. If that meant putting on hold content for others you don't care YOU just want whats best for you and hide it behind utter bullshit statements.
 
Yous wonder why this game fails. Take a look at the fkn dribble you people post on here and you will understand why the moment new players interested in this game come on these forums are leave and dont come back.
 
Good job people good job
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I see many great suggestion in here that could improve the longlivety of the game...
 
here is a little list of Things i think will help players stick around longer:
 
somehow instance or phase the World bosses so that they are playable and somewhat of a challange. Right now its a lag-fest and absolutely no movement required..the boss is Down in 5 to 15 sec..
make the Explorations and adventures 20 man..THIS would be very cool. As it could be an alternative to the harder raiding..also..needs to reward propper gear..at least vet Dungeon and world boss gear.
Apply the same Lock-out rules per boss that WOW has..this has been a tremendous success in wow and it will be here too!
Make the warplot into massiv BG's or something like wintergrasp/ashran (from WOW)
LFR? but not the wow way. I would rather have it..que up for raid, but same difficulty Level. Makes it FAR easier for pugging!!!!
 
The following statments are my own opinion but i think it speaks for many ppl:
 
Casuals players (and others) in mmo's like to play along side other ppl, even though making Close friends is hard since Casuals players are mostly not online. One of the great Things about e.g. gw2 was the WWW. You could just toss yourself in there and play alongside other ppl towards objectives without speaking to anyone for the Whole day..still massiv fun and you still contributed to "Your realm". Sure..there are more dedicated ppl that take the lead and Write in chat where to go etc...and you could choose to follow them or not..many did:) Also this goes for the massiv pvp Battles in wow. Same goes for the LFR in wow...you can enter and have some fun With other random ppl and you can WALK AWAY instantly without letting other ppl Down..cause you would be replaced by a New random from the que!!!
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Probably.
We're all #hardcore, elitist jerks for kiling System Daemons
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Yes, because if there's one thing the raids just don't have enough of, it's rewards for doing them.  :lol:
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A few from the top of my head. A decent and well structured endgame progression system for casual endgame players. (that would include raids, not just crappy world bosses) Raids that lock players to the loot as opposed to the instance. The ability to queue for more than one thing at a time. A group finder that encourages players to help each other, rewards the lesser played roles and encourages people to play group content of all levels so that the queue times are accceptable. The ability to engage in endgame PvP (Warplots) without having to wait for hours. Account bound everything so players don't have to repeat the same grinds on alts. The ability to find advertising guilds quickly and easily in game. Some form of content gating that keeps people out of content they're not prepared for would also be nice to prevent griefing.
 
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What is not casual about GA? I'm an incredibly casual player, and even I managed to get through the old attunement - now there's almost nothing left to that, so it's hardly a hurdle. And GA itself is challenging but not overly so. The group I'm with (not even a guild, just a circle made up of folk from several different guilds) has made pretty steady progression through it over the past couple months raiding only two nights a week for 3 hours, and we're currently working on Phageborn Convergence - the second to the last boss. GA is also PUGed on a semi-regular basis, plus there are the mini-bosses in GA which offer fun mechanics but not as challenging as the bosses - and they drop loot!
 
Seriously. GA is casual. I won't argue against loot locking (I think that's a fine idea), but don't pretend you don't have casual raid content.
 
Warplots aren't "endgame PvP", by the way. Everything is pretty much "endgame" PvP.
 
 
I think I'd actually just prefer more 5-man dungeons along the lines of vet SSM. Really challenging bosses. Big open area that you can pick and choose which to hit first. It really feels like a 5 person raid, and I love it. While I was a huge proponent of 10-mans in WoW, I know Carbine is pretty set on 20 man being the raid size for WS, and having raids of multiple sizes creates logistical roster problems.
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			Makaria you need to learn how to multi-quote. 	
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agree on everything except ezmode raids.  The point of a raid is that it is hard, otherwise, no one would raid.
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Are you sure? I could have sworn the moral was "Join a guild, make some friends, watch the YouTube video, git gud"...  ;)
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The way our lockouts work is a feature we would like to improve.
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I mean, tex, i actually haven't minded F2P (it makes it a lot easier to fill raid with quality players, btw), but I do NOT like how the game is now easier.  IMO my guild has progressed through datascape too fast.  Even on progression, our DPS is so high we bypass a lot of mechanics i think we should do, and then with attunement being so easy you get a lot of people in raid who simply aren't ready to raid at all.  I don't think this is a good thing.
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Actually, I think I'll stand with my statement, since it's already based on personal experience in a different game that--amusingly--also used telegraphs, action combat, and wide build diversity to give you an enormous range of options in gameplay. Then it took all those options and flexibility and dynamics away with instanced group content that tried to offer up unforgiving encounters that require near-perfect execution of pre-scripted attack plans with highly constrained builds as a substitute for actual on-the-fly dynamic encounters where the attack plan is the first casualty and you never stop and kill yourself because it's just quicker and more effective at achieving your goals than staying alive and fighting it out to the bitter end.
 
What you find fun, I do not find fun. Doing what I don't find fun with 19 other people will not make it more enjoyable than doing it with 4 other people, and I've already done plenty of that.
 
The word "wrong" seems like a very poor choice of response to a statement about interest--it's an inherently subjective topic. May I suggest "Disagree" as a more appropriate alternative? Maybe even "I disagree." if you're feeling verbose.
 
Yeah, because I love opponents that don't fight back.  :rolleyes:
 
I do not raid, you're right. However, I do know quite a bit about the raids and the player behaviors and personality characteristics that they actively reward and promote. I also participate in plenty of group content, both in this game and others, to have a good feel for what I do and don't enjoy.
 
The topic that I was speaking about in the text you quoted was what what I do and don't find interesting about encounters in group content, a topic that I am in fact the only person qualified to comment on. So with all due respect, if you want to know who the arrogant person is in this little exchange, get a mirror and take a good long look.
 
 
 :huh: I don't give a *cupcake* whether a check is hard or soft, whether it's a big clock counting down numbers or the number of tiles left on the floor or how large n is in the 2^n spread of Kuralak's corruption or anything else. It's there for one reason and only one reason: to ensure that raid groups have a specific, predictable composition that takes all those options in build and playstyle and narrows them down to a tiny window of viable alternatives so that the behavior of the raid group is reduced to something as predictable as the behavior of the raid boss.
 
And if you're into that, more power to you. 
But I'm not, and--at least according to pretty much every metric and analysis I have ever seen--most people aren't. 90% of the people who play MMORPGs never even try to set foot into a mythic raid, and 98% of them never bother to finish one.
 
That is great news, TT. I am very glad to hear it.
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Oh, I understand and I agree with you that there IS a difference.
 
The issue here is that if a hard check is defined as "literally impossible without optimized builds, composition, and playing at a very high level" and a soft check is defined as "technically possible without those things", then the essential questions become "Well, how possible is 'technically possible'"? and "Well, what is 'playing at a level that is high enough'?"
 
I suspect that your idea of "playing at a level that is not very high" is probably about the same place as my idea of "playing at a level that is very very high".
 
As Orrestes has mentioned, this would be a place where some metrics would really be very handy to have.
 
Much appreciated, I've found the resistance to it very puzzling for exactly the reasons you described.
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^ This
 
I would love a raid finder and specific boss lockouts......
 
That interest is based solely on the fact that I no longer have 12+hrs per week to delegate specifically for raiding, but I might have a couple hours randomly spread throughout the week. The desire to have multiple difficulties and more casual content for me is I simply do not have the time anymore. Does that mean I no longer want to play MMO's? No, I will simply play one that allows me to enjoy the most content in the amount of time I have.........coincidently that will also be what I would spend money on. This does not mean I some scrub advocating for braindead content, but I also have no interest in listening to some neckbeard rage at people in a raid anymore. I'll take something that I can do to relax and enjoy the couple hours it will take to clear everything such as an LFR or the like.
 
TLDR: I don't want to take away the neckbeards content, I just want content that I can enjoy myself that is both rewarding and respectful of my time..............otherwise what incentive do I have to spend money?
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I've seen your sword, Orr - and it makes me super-envious.
 
 :lol: ;)
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also in reference to the quote you replied too, if you dont have time to research and limited play time wouldnt it be best spent then practicing dungeons?  this is what is missed.  i do not know about the rest of you but i got good at this game by practicing.  not reading guides, but they at least point you in the right direction.  the first time i ran any instance it was a challenge and took some time as i worked through it, but each time it went smoother and my play improved.  practice makes perfect and if you dont have time for practice then you really dont have time to game. you wont need practice dungeons if you actually practice the dungeons.  i know i am preaching to the choir here.
 
edit: made it in while chemboy is on his spree lol.  incoming chemboy posts.
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Tourist raids are definitely attractive.  I did my time in SoO LFR *shudders*  At first it was "hey cool".  But after a few weeks you start to look around and wish more than a quarter of the group had any sort of competence.  But all it did was contribute to a massive case of burn out and no real sense of accomplishment.
 
The one argument that people raise against ez-mode raids that makes me shake my head is: If they're doing ez-modes they won't want to do hard modes.  Yes, exactly.  Burnout happens at both ends of the spectrum.  Too easy and it's boring.  Too hard and/or demanding then people get frustrated.  If somebody is perfectly happy doing an easier mode and not demanding the same rewards as the harder one, then more power to them.  I'd rather have a happy player playing than a frustrated one leave the game entirely.
 
The more compelling argument against multi-mode raiding is limited development resources.  The "easy" raids will happen naturally over time due to power creep anyway.
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Sorry, but you're not allowed to do that.
It's either "20 man raid, or GTFO". Please stop things that do not fit Yasfan's description and experience of raiding.
You might prove him wrong if you keep doing this.
Let me just go delete my 14man Experiment kill to be sure.
 
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I'm well aware that once you have content on farm, you don't need anywhere near a full raid group. That's not really what we're talking about here at all, since the topic is casual players who don't raid and not accomplished raiders who have already mastered the content.
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Eh, I'm not going to pretended there aren't DPS checks. They are there, and they keep the game fun. Not many hard DPS checks, as I said before.
 
And yes, content gets easier even after you've beaten it once. It isn't even about the gear. We wiped for months on System Daemons, one of the toughest bosses in the game, and two days later we went in with 19 people and got them to 2% on the first pull (our 20th got there the next pill and we got them two pulls later). So yasfan is right that farm cobtent is different than profession content. 
 
But it doesn't matter, because the cobtebt is FUN.
Without the DPS checks, these bosses wouldn't be fun. And if you want them to develop something else, you are talking about something fundamentally different than what they are. Which is actually fine with me. But don't creat a version of GA that is completely different from what it is. Create something new and interesting.
 
Carbine has developed raids that are amazing. And no, yasfan, you cannot criticize them without trying them. I don't care what a progress site says. The encounters are great, most of the players who do them think so, and the opinions of those who haven't tried them don't matter.	
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