Report 450

Report #450
Skillset: Kata Skill: None
 Org: Ninjakari Status: Rejected Aug 2010
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Problem: Monks are fast. While many attribute a monk's speed to balance time, a
major cause to a monk's ability to apply many severe afflictions in a short
amount of time is due to what I will refer to as the momentum boosters. These
are Kaife, Ninchu, Tahto'sho, and Shotah. Most of the severe afflictions are
balanced through momentum loss penalties causing a monk to lose one, two, or
three momentum in one form depending on how aggressive the form is. Smark monks
know not to drop below momentum level 2 as they can easily use their momentum
booster to counteract the momentum loss. Essentially, monks are able to land
severe afflictions rapidly with very easy momentum management, nullifying the
cost of momentum losses and easily overpowering an opponent with no real way to
slow them down.
Solution #1: Reduce the momentum boosters (Kaife, Ninchu, Tahto'sho, and
 Shotah) effectiveness by lowering the momentum gain to one, but
 simultaneously, having the attack decrease the form's balance
 time by 25%. It is assumed that the momentum boosters are
 inherently the same speed as other skills before the percentage
 is reduced. The momentum boosters lose the balance decreasing
 ability at momentum 5.
Solution #2: Reduce the momentum boosters (Kaife, Ninchu, Tahto'sho, and
 Shotah) effectiveness by lowering the momentum gain to one, but
 simultaneously, having the attack decrease the form's balance
 time by 33% and eliminating the possibility of using a leg action
 in the same form (does not consume leg balance, but allows for
 out-of-form kicks). It is assumed that the momentum boosters are
 inherently the same speed as other skills before the percentage
 is reduced. The momentum boosters lose the balance decreasing
 ability at momentum 5.
Player Comments:
---[Sahmiam on 8/18 @ 19:03 writes]:
For clarification, the reduction is calculated after other affects that affect
balance time including Kata Speed.
---[Viynain on 8/20 @ 23:16 writes]:
As was made obvious by that fairly lengthy discussion folk can see on the
forums, proposals to augment monk speed are things not going to garner much
support for from those outside the monk class. Suggesting to cut down momentum
gain in exchange for a speed bump isn't something I particularly find monks
need, especially given the other factors that help give monks the painful
reputation it has today.
---[Sahmiam on 8/21 @ 02:21 writes]:
I think it was also fairly obvious that the thread turned into an angry mob with
blinders on. Monks have a bad reputation, yes, but I don't think anyone can deny
that the reputation is, in part, the result of hearsay, bad information, and
simply not understanding the class. People like to emphasize balance times,
which is fine. People need to realize that momentum levels are what allow a monk
to do the ridiculous combos that give monks a bad reputation. Monks say that
this change decreases the ability to (re)build momentum and thus reduces the
amount of severe afflictions monks can give. Who better to understand how to
build momentum than monks? It's unfortunate that the answer is monks, because as
the angry mob likes to accuse us of being biased. This report isn't addressing
the balance/time of monks but rather the momentum/time for monks. Perhaps I'm
missing where it's more advantageous for a monk to sacrifice 2 afflictions (and
a kick) for the 25%/33% boost. The skills will only give the bonus on mo2, mo3,
mo4. If solution 1 goes through, monks can only kick with that at mo3 and mo4.
The angry mob fails to see the opportunity cost the solutions impose upon monks
for choosing the limited speed augumentation. Anyone that plays a monk or has
played a monk (if I'm not missing some ridiculous combo) would agree that
momentum/time is reduced by this solution and as a result, the affliction/time
is as well. If a monk does nothing but these skills for mo2, mo3, and mo4, the
momentum/time is greater, but still no where near what it is now, and the
affliction/time is nearly voided. I try to keep an open mind, but I can only go
so far when the angry mob only looks at the solution without actually
considering how it affects monks.
---[Kalin on 8/24 @ 03:58 writes]:
"Monks are fast." + "having the attack decrease the form's balance time by 25%."
= No. I agree with decreasing the momentum gained but do not agree with changing
that over to a speed increase in another fashion to make up for it.
---[Sahmiam on 8/24 @ 05:11 writes]:
That's fine, but I am against reducing the momentum gain without some
compensation in some form or another. Otherwise, it defeats the entire purpose
of having the skills, and this is not a "delete momentum boosters" report. I
honestly think that people are overreacting to the solution. Mo boosters don't
give momentum when there is a negative momentum loss from another skill, and if
a kick is done out of form, the balance is calculated separately. Monks that
choose to use these are willfully sacrificing two hand actions and 1 poison to
increase momentum.
---[Sahmiam on 8/24 @ 05:15 writes]:
Actually, in light of my previous comment, I think it's more than fair that the
same nullifying principle be applied. If the kick would cause momentum loss,
then the balance reduction should no longer takes place. This report is strictly
trying to reduce momentum/time without allowing for abuses, and it's the best
solution I could come up with. I'm up for other ideas, however!
---[Kalin on 8/24 @ 05:20 writes]:
It is a widely known fact that monks are out of control, they have the best of
all worlds - speed, damage, afflictions, hindering via all of these and they
don't need "compensation" for reducing something that probably is a step in the
right direction by a monk envoy. Perhaps the intent of your report is not a
"nerf momentum" report, but maybe it should be.
---[Sahmiam on 8/24 @ 05:51 writes]:
It is a nerf momentum/time report, but I'm looking at the ideal goal, which is a
class that -is- in control. Short of yet another special report, there is no
worthwhile simple solution. This is a step in the right direction; perhaps not
as immediate as some people would like it to be, but I think in the long run,
it's the better move.
---[Viynain on 8/24 @ 06:24 writes]:
I am still of the firm opinion that monks do not need any further speed boosts
for any form of compensation for one of a series of changes widely regarded as
needed for the monk class in general. Go for the added limitation on momentum
boosters, sure, but I don't think folk would budge on any consideration that
monks need more speed.
---[Sahmiam on 8/24 @ 07:22 writes]:
Let's be precise when we say the word 'speed.' This report specifically
increases balance/time briefly to give a slight increase to momentum/time.
However, if Placeus's testing is correct, I'm actually reducing the balance/time
of the mo boosters before applying the increase of balance/time (increasing
their balance times to be in-line with other monk skills). However, please don't
forget that the momentum/time is still significantly less than what the skills
currently do, and because of it, the afflictions/time is also reduced. I am
nerfing monks' speed by targeting two out of the three areas that make them
fast. Food for thought: Placeus's testing showed that the mo boosters were
faster than other skills, it's possible that the 25% increase in balance time is
already in place, and if so, then I'm actually nerfing that by limiting it to
momentum levels 2-4 and eliminating it with the mo-penalized kicks.
---[Thul on 8/24 @ 23:51 writes]:
Successfully connecting with any punch, kick, or non-momentum-using attack in a
form = +1 mo. Successfully connecting with booster attack = +2 mo. Price of
booster attack = 2h attack, affliction limited to 1 poison. Booster attack as-is
without booster bonus (as per Kalin's suggestion) = +1 mo, which would mean that
you're sacrificing one hand and affliction possibilities for no good reason,
making each of the skills roughly worthless. Despite the rampant fearmongering
that pops up whenever "monks" and "speed" are mentioned in the same area, both
of Sahmiam's solutions would, in reality, constitute a significant downgrade to
a monk's overall ability to reach high momentum, where the more powerful
abilities emerge. Please stop trying to interpret this as a monk combat buff.
It's not.
---[Fillin on 8/26 @ 18:11 writes]:
If momentum builders gained 1 mo and were just as fast as every other attack,
there would be no reason whatsoever to use them. This is a reasonable nerf,
though that's not to say I wouldn't mind these attacks going away entirely.
---[Thul on 8/26 @ 23:00 writes]:
Personally, I'm not really convinced that the momentum boosters as they exist
are really this big a problem. At least for the Nekotai, low-momentum effects
are pretty lackluster (not everyone has double hemi for an opener,) and kaife's
a way to get up that isn't the usual grapplespam.
---[Sahmiam on 8/27 @ 01:11 writes]:
I can sympathize with Thul somewhat. I can only vouch for Ninjakari combat, and
at that, my own approach to it. I rely quite heavily on these skills for quick
recovery from large momentum losses as well as ensuring the level 2 momentum
threshold.