148616-taking-a-break-but-before-i-do-heres-my-suggestions-for-overall-improvement-of-the-w-experience-page-2

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Even your biggest fan Ufa isn't it.
 
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And this whole thing about "reshape my playstyle and build", unless your build/playstyle is such that you really can't do your job, it really isn't necessary
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You are kind of leaving out all of the other differences to sell 'raid-play' as 'just solo play but with more people'. Like how unforgiving Veteran Dungeons and Raids are, how they are designed to coordinate with other 4-20 people, how gear doesn't matter in a number of mechanics, how the failure of each member in meeting their role or task reduces the odds of success, how you have to schedule your time with these other people (unless you are PuGing), how this things can take from anywhere between 15 minutes to multiple hours, how you suddenly don't have any control on your own play time because it's not your time anymore but the group's (someone AFKing for whatever reason).
 
Just like in solo play, right? Right?
 
It makes sense for you to leave those details out because, well, you are a raider. You can jump from HARDCORE! raids to casual play easily. Almost all the non raid and non veteran content can eventually be made laughably trivial just by gear progression. Gear progression that can only be acquired through raids and becoming part of the HARDCORE! family, or by being a filthy casual who LOVES to repeat the same dailies and contracts every day. Except the most rewarding contracts all involve some sort of group play.
 
But sure, whatever. Veteran content and raids in this game are just casual play where ALL you have to do is 'fit properly into a role'. Don't stand in red, get a group, get good. Nothing else required. Totally.
 
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 to repeat the same dailies and contracts every day
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There is no room for casual progression when they are already at the limit. If they made casual content that only rewarded fluff how many would complain about not being rewarded for doing the content? 
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Solo instance gear - ilvl 90, increases open world and solo content damage/healing done by 30%.
 
Just eliminated it from being best for anything but its own intended content and open world. I also agree with the idea of cosmetic rewards from solo content - it'd be a lot of fun to run. Solo content done right is amazing.	
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Group Content>Solo content.  Group Content rewards>solo content rewards.  MMultiplayerORPG.  Content is going to be developed for this.  And no, going back at max level and soloing normal underleveled dungeon isn't solo content.  Don't get an achievement or SUPER REWARD! for doing this.  Sure, have solo content in the game, thats what alot of questing is in the game actually.  I would say majority of the content is solo content, but the thing is, the super awesome rewards, behind group content, and should be in a trintity system.  You really can not balance solo content.  
 
And yasfan, of course do what you want.  Please do what you want, thats what people play a game for.  But don't ask to drastically change the game and progression in the game for your specific playstyle because you don't enjoy group content.  But don't comment on stuff you don't know about.  If you never done the content, you can't really give expert opinion.  And no, reading about it doesn't mean you know it.
And to answer, yes, gear matters in this game, not nearly as much as it used to.  But skill matters too.  Its more skill now compared to gear.  But I can't solo 5man mobs on my stalker as on my warrior I can.  And some that I cant do on either can do on my esper because I can kite and kill at range.  Or just go tank and can solo too.  Can't really balance solo content other than just make it easy.
 
*And people really stopped running solo instances alot less aka Expeditions because the reward isn't as great with the nerf to plat gain and does offer cosmetic rewards in there and pets and mounts and housing.
			
				
	Edited January 11, 2016 by Orrestes	
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Actually, if solo instances rewarded nongear items like exclusive costumes/pets/mounts/decor etc. people would continue to run them. That's why Discovery hunting is a thing now.
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do what you want.  Please do what you want, thats what people play a game for.  But don't ask to drastically change the game and progression in the game for your specific playstyle. 
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If they made casual content that only rewarded fluff how many would complain about not being rewarded for doing the content?
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Isn't this what WoW did with that... what was it called... Challenge mode? To be fair, I don't know if they've changed it since I quit, but that was just small-group content that pretty much only awarded fluff and bragging rights. And everyone here should know how popular cosmetics are. I think it's a mistake to undervalue non-stat-related rewards.
 
 
How long until you've obtained all the gear? Same question, same solution: Make sure you keep updating your content.
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			Who said no restrictions? Anyway, there are ways to control rate of acquisition, some more grindy or annoying than others. That's really not so much of an issue.	
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iLvl 90 expeditions is solo content.  LFR (easier version of raids) is solo content.  If you deny that, tell me you can't do the World Bosses solo and still get rewards?  Or join the group and afk thru the kill.  People do them, get some gear, and quit after a week or two.
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No, that's the entire issue. Raid content is a lot slower to complete and more repeatable than solo content. I can't think of any solo thing I've done in any game that I've poured as many hours into as I have GA. A lot of that is because of the social aspect if doing it together, seeing others get rewards, and the micro improvements as you go.
 
I don't think it's possible to create solo content with as much longevity as a good raid.
			
				
	Edited January 11, 2016 by SlyJeff	
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Solo instance gear - ilvl 90, increases open world and solo content damage/healing done by 30%.
 
Just eliminated it from being best for anything but its own intended content and open world. I also agree with the idea of cosmetic rewards from solo content - it'd be a lot of fun to run. Solo content done right is amazing.
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No, that's the entire issue. Raid content is a lot slower to complete and more repeatable than solo content. I can't think of any solo thing I've done in any game that I've poured as many hours into as I have GA. A lot of that is because of the social aspect if doing it together, seeing others get rewards, and the micro improvements as you go.
 
I don't think it's possible to create solo content with as much longevity as a good raid.
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A significant amount of the raid challenge isn't just doing the mechanics but coordinating/relying on your group members. It introduces a vast array of human error, and a significant amount of that comes from requiring communication. So, I can absolutely see where they're coming from in terms of longevity for solo vs group.
 
I guess it's finding a model that would cause solo play to be a lot about failing and learning over a long period of time.
 
RE: the bag slot problem, I'm very (very very) aware of it sadly as I carry four sets of gear, but that can be offset by tuning the solo-specific gear to be equally good in open world/solo content as dungeon gear, and then scale down raid gear in solo content to match that. That way instead of needing solo content gear, you could just use your dungeon gear. It would also continue to put emphasis on group content over solo.	
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No, it's not as enjoyable, but it is the way this kind of raiding is structured. And I'm beginning to think it's really flawed. Someone's going to have to break the mold, but it's probably too late for Carbine.
 
The problem is that progressed guilds are always going to need to gear up new folks to get them on level of doing their content. Adventures get skipped. Dungeons get skipped. GA gets skipped. And the players who suffer are the ones doing the skipping. No more will people know the fun of working on X-89 for a few weeks while farming GA minis. Because any pug can do x-89 (gear being much stronger obviously helps this).
 
But this past week, I invited a fresh 50 to our guild on Monday. Carried him through some dungeons to help him get geared for GA. Tuesday we were short so I gave him a pristine key, brought him in to do mini-probes, and he got a few 116 tanking/dps pieces (warrior). Wednesday went into GA on an alt raid and he got his glory unlock. He ran dungeons to get full glory gear by Friday, and ended up kicking for us on System Daemons. Got the glory unlock and then later a 120 token from a challenge drop. He bought a crafted weapon and full DS glory gear. By Sunday, he was over ilvl 100 and contributing to our raid, less than a week after hitting 50.
 
Now don't get me wrong- he worked his tail off. Buying GA AND DS glory gear in a week is pretty hardcore- haha. But the sad thing is, he completely missed all that fun we had progressing through GA. Yeah, Datascape is fun, and I know he was having a blast, but there's so much of this game that is out there that he'll never get to experience. If you are in a nice, casual group, a year ago it took 6 months to complete GA. These days, you can pug it and be pretty geared in only a few weeks. And this is really necessary for the DS guilds to keep up with progression.
 
I don't know that there's any way for Carbine to counter this with the current game design, but it would be better if more than just a small portion of content was relevant for any given player at any given time. I mean, if you are a fresh 50, your relevant content is a handful of expeditions. If you have some gear, then your content is a handful of dungeons. If you are in GA, your content is GA, and if you are in DS, your content is DS. I feel like it would be so much better if those things stayed relevant.
 
I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and it would be nice if rather than progressing in a linear fashion, if the content could be progressed through on parallel paths. Meaning nothing needs to get skipped. Instead of dropping weapons, it would be cool if raids/dungeons dropped enhancements that would add power to gear for that instance (or set of instances) only. Thus you could as a group work on dungeons, GA, or DS in whatever order you wanted. As you progressed through GA you'd get more powerful in GA, but DS you'd be starting from scratch. And if you wanted to skip over GA, that's fine, but if you did, you could always go back and "progress" through it. You'd just need some kind of reward for finishing each type of content that wouldn't invalidate the other content.
 
Anyway, no way could WS do a system like that. I think it's hopeless locked into the power creep/gear progression model, but it's a shame that so much of the really, really good content is just getting ignored. GA is so amazing, it's sad that it gets no respect anymore.
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I agree with most of what you said, ChemBoy, I just want to note a few places where I have something to add.
 
I have completed all the dungeons, just not at the Veteran level. I agree with you that they require nowhere near the level of time/effort to complete as raids. But ultimately, I'm not interested in being carried through it at all. Not in a premade team of me and four amazing players who can carry me, and not in a random PUG of me and four amazing players who can carry me.
 
The problem isn't that PUGs are hit or miss. The problem is that PUGs have no way for me to avoid being stuck in those groups where I am simply cargo and not a contributing player because I haven't already mastered it.
 
Unfortunately, this is the big existential threat to the game. If players in the mood for something fun and casual don't see this game as a place where they can do that, then the population of this game outside the raid instances withers and dies, new players show up to a ghost town and leave, the revenues tank, and the game folds.
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It's completely cool to not do things that you don't enjoy. I just don't know why you spend so much time talking about it and how you'd change it. It's not your thing- and that's OK. What you really want is something fundamentally different than the current raid/dungeon content, which is fine. But WS is what it is. Your vision is so drastically different, I don't see it ever getting there. Beyond that, I'm not sure many people share the same vision you do.
 
I know a lot of people have asked for an easier version of GA, but I don't see that addressing any of the things you've listed.
 
And this whole thing about "reshape my playstyle and build", unless your build/playstyle is such that you really can't do your job, it really isn't necessary. All you need to be able to do is fill a role adequately (tank, dps, heals), you don't have to have an ideal build or rotation. But if your issue is that you consider "well, I don't really want to tank, dps, or heal- I'd rather do [xyz]" then that's just a problem of not wanting to do group content in a trinity MMO. Which is also fine, but expecting them to change away from the well-worn and established trinity system is surely and exercise in futility.
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Yasfan, I think jeff is right.  I can't think what kind of playstyle/build you run that doesn't make sense for group content, unless it's like some weird hybrid/giest build or something like that :S
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A significant amount of the raid challenge isn't just doing the mechanics but coordinating/relying on your group members. It introduces a vast array of human error, and a significant amount of that comes from requiring communication. So, I can absolutely see where they're coming from in terms of longevity for solo vs group.
 
I guess it's finding a model that would cause solo play to be a lot about failing and learning over a long period of time.
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If your "playstyle" involves not wanting to work as a team to accomplish the goal, then team oriented content isn't for you.
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			I'm not entirely sure what is demanding in dungeons. Throw some cheap-o high runes in your gear - you don't even have to reroll slots if you don't want to - and you're set. Not sure what you mean by limited inventory slots, either, and running a dungeon doesn't take any more or less slots than doing anything else in this game. Nor does it take much plat. And you'd be hard pressed to find a build that works for you in the open world but is not usable in a dungeon. Got no issue with folk not liking dungeons, but your reasons for not wanting to do dungeons don't really make sense to me. Sorry! xD	
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Jeff just told us a heartwarming story about moving someone into DS in what, a week? It'll take that same guy a lot longer than that to get a full outfit from OMNICore-1 if he's inclined to have one.
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I agree with you here, but I also feel like Carbine isn't really trying either. Like they are almost no exclusive rewards from Omni-Core. The gear I got I could find the same look outside of the instance.
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I'm not entirely sure what is demanding in dungeons. Throw some cheap-o high runes in your gear - you don't even have to reroll slots if you don't want to - and you're set. Not sure what you mean by limited inventory slots, either, and running a dungeon doesn't take any more or less slots than doing anything else in this game. Nor does it take much plat. And you'd be hard pressed to find a build that works for you in the open world but is not usable in a dungeon. Got no issue with folk not liking dungeons, but your reasons for not wanting to do dungeons don't really make sense to me. Sorry! xD
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			I sincerely just don't understand. @_@ No need to be rude about it.
			
				
	Edited January 12, 2016 by Naunet	
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I sincerely just don't understand. @_@ No need to be rude about it.
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Honestly, I'd rather see more Expeditions than more solo-only instances because the Expeditions are fun not just for solo play but also for a couple playing together or a few friends.
But I agree with you that OMNICore-1 is a profoundly unrewarding experience--to the point that it's hard not to wonder if they made it that way to ensure that they'd never have enough interest to need to make another one.
 
The endboss is pretty fun the first time you do it, though.
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Actually, I enjoy playing as a team just fine. I enjoy Vet Adventures and they require working together to accomplish goals. You have to stick together to do some things, split up to do other things, someone--anyone--needs to make sure that X happens while everyone else does Y, works out great. Go team. I enjoy team PvP just fine as long as the two sides are even remotely comparable in their level of skill and coordination--which, in fairness, they often are not.
 
So fundamentally, I think Ildur's got it more right than you do. It's not that I don't enjoy group content. It's that I don't enjoy it enough to take limited LAS slots, inventory slots, runes, plat, and time and invest all of them into group content tuned to demand that level of investment to be anything other than deadweight.
 
Difficulty is not actually the determining factor that causes people to do what's profitable rather than what's fun. It's time. That's why people still run WBs for iLevel 90 gear even though Contracts are far easier and provide iLevel 100 gear. Because getting a full set of iLevel 100 gear through Contracts will take vastly longer than joining a WB train.
 
It's why people go through the progression at all when they could just farm the crap out of resource nodes and vendor what they get until they can afford BoE DS gear. It's trivially easy, but it'll take forever. There is no risk, but the effort required is huge.
 
So with all due respect, solo content doesn't have to stick to iLevel 65 or less to avoid causing trouble for group content. It simply has to take more effort to get to the same point, and there are many ways they can do this. The people who can't or really don't want to do the group content won't be doing the group content anyway--and the people who can and do want to do group content will follow the quicker path up the same way they always have.
 
Jeff just told us a heartwarming story about moving someone into DS in what, a week? It'll take that same guy a lot longer than that to get a full outfit from OMNICore-1 if he's inclined to have one.
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			in a few years (if WS is still alive) and we all are level 70+ you will be able to solorun GA yasfan. until then your hopes of new adventures, expeditions and other solo content that is created to prepare players for group play and to teach them their roles/specs will hopefully not be the focuss of the devs.	
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Yeah, my average iLevel is... 106? 107? Something like that. It's no secret. I'm not trying to hide it from you, if you want to know all you have to do is ask. Many of the mechanics in the dungeons are designed to render my gear irrelevant anyway, so what's your point?
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I just realized your ilvl is greater than mine and I raid. I suppose I should make some kind of complaint about how you don't deserve that gear because you don't raid, but I never developed that mentality.
 
I know I could boost my ilvl if I really wanted to, but I'm just weird and actually like to earn my gear through doing the content instead of buying it off the AH or PUG with another guild for an SD kill. For the most part, I don't mind people that do. I did get sad once when I was Off-Tanking Ohmna and realized the DPS in my 3 Maw group outgeared me & the Healer precisely because they were willing to take other avenues for better gear.
 
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Kudo's for keeping it up Sly.
But Yasfan has been given the chance to actually join a raid and experience it what it's like, but took a cop-out of it.
Not worth trying to argue about it, opinions remain opinions and invalid until some experience has been obtained	
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It's that I don't enjoy it enough to take limited LAS slots, inventory slots, runes, plat, and time and invest all of them into group content tuned to demand that level of investment to be anything other than deadweight.
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So with all due respect, solo content doesn't have to stick to iLevel 65 or less to avoid causing trouble for group content. It simply has to take more effort to get to the same point, and there are many ways they can do this. The people who can't or really don't want to do the group content won't be doing the group content anyway--and the people who can and do want to do group content will follow the quicker path up the same way they always have.
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Kudo's for keeping it up Sly.
But Yasfan has been given the chance to actually join a raid and experience it what it's like, but took a cop-out of it.
Not worth trying to argue about it, opinions remain opinions and invalid until some experience has been obtained
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Expeditions are solo'd because the rewards are so meager nobody ever does them outside of fresh 50s trying to get some starting gear, if they were rewarding and bumped up to a challenging difficulty, its more likely you'd find groups doing them. LFR is a raid, it is, by definition, group content. Saying it is solo content because you can solo queue is effectively saying veteran dungeons are solo content, because you can solo queue. It's an absurd statement attempting to diminish something to its smallest base feature.
 
Yeah, I assume some people do just join wb trains and afk through kills, the question is why are you so against it in the form of LFR but aren't up in arms to stop people from doing what they are doing already? If people are quitting so quickly after getting lowest level end game gear, I'd say the problem is either accessibility or the games lack of holding interest. Personally, the problem is the community. I've only recently started, and already I've been locked out of any endgame content, from vet dungeons to raiding, simply because of how elitist and unwelcoming every group I've run into so far has been. Easier access to content would extend my time here, as I am already one foot out the door.
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The [Omnicore-1] endboss is pretty fun the first time you do it, though.
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And I've said this in the past, solo players will not wipe for 2 weeks on solo content.  Say they put a DS-esque solo instance in the game.  Can you see someone wiping for 2 weeks, at 12 hours a week, so 24 hours to spend on 1 boss?
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And I've said this in the past, solo players will not wipe for 2 weeks on solo content.  Say they put a DS-esque solo instance in the game.  Can you see someone wiping for 2 weeks, at 12 hours a week, so 24 hours to spend on 1 boss? 
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Yasfan, I think jeff is right.  I can't think what kind of playstyle/build you run that doesn't make sense for group content, unless it's like some weird hybrid/giest build or something like that :S
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Sounds like your issue is with the trinity system, specifically asking individuals to function in a single role as a healer, tank, or dps.
 
If that's the case, then your issues with raids, dungeons, and basically most of the end game stem from you wanting to play a fundamentally different game than this is. The trinity system is something baked into this game at a very core level.
 
And no, I wouldn't ridicule you taking those runes doing what you are trying to do. In fact, there are times we do some "crazy" things like that to overcomes certain raid mechanics. For example, having warriors run a hybrid build for kicking on System Daemons. In fact, that stuff can be fun to figure out.
 
But if what you want is to change this game to suit that style of play as the norm, you really are expecting too much. The trinity system is well established and popular. If there is a problem with this game, the trinity system isn't it. And moving away from it isn't going to help the game succeed.
			
				
	Edited January 12, 2016 by SlyJeff	
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			Right, the raid developer, which LFR are, is raid experience, not a solo experience shouldn't have views that raids should be group oriented, not solo oriented?  And highly doubt 70% of the playerbase are solo players.	
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But if what you want is to change this game to suit that style of play as the norm, you really are expecting too much. The trinity system is well established and popular. If there is a problem with this game, the trinity system isn't it. And moving away from it isn't going to help the game succeed.
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 And highly doubt 70% of the playerbase are solo players.
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			No, the game never pretends you can ignore the trinity. You have a lot of content that doesn't require a tank and healer, but he trinity is baked in. That you choose to try to play it different way is your thing, but you are playing against the system, not with it. Overgearing/out leveling content doesn't count as non trinity content. And adventures were designed for trinity.
			
				
	Edited January 12, 2016 by SlyJeff	
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I'm saying this game, and 70% of the population does not do solo play only like yasfan does.  You can say a raider does solo play too when not raiding.
When I read, play how you want, I look at as I can be dps, or tank, or a healer.
 
And you do know this game is lauded as the best Raiding MMO?  So why would they replace the raid developer?  If you haven't even experienced the content, how would you know how good or bad it is?  And most developers make games to fit their vision.  Not players vision.  Sure, they take into account players wants, but not 100%.  If that was the case, there would be so many different types of raids, and actually people would get overwhelmed or quit because same stuff, just more damage/health on the mobs.  And I don't know what game you've played, but this games raid developer has hit the nail on its head for what "RAID COMMUNITY" want.  Not what solo players wanting to solo raid instances want.
 
And trinity system, if you take respective content with respective iLvl (not overgearing it), can't expect to solo the content.  I don't go expecting I can solo vet adventures in iLvl 50 gear but in my iLvl 120 gear, I can.	
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			Also, as for this game being unusual, it's the same as WoW was when I played it, with the exeption that WoW didn't have expeditions that can be done full DPS.	
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I'd like to see an SS tank one of the daemons on SD, screw the trinity system I say!.....
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 	
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I'm saying this game, and 70% of the population does not do solo play only like yasfan does.  You can say a raider does solo play too when not raiding.
When I read, play how you want, I look at as I can be dps, or tank, or a healer.
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			Gaffrey mentioned the 3 paths in the alpha phase I believe and that changed for whatever reason but probably came down to resources.	
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Yas, that you have to overgear and outlevel something in order to do it solo means that it was never intended to be soloed. That doesn't mean that you can't go back and do so, but I think it's wrong to claim that this is some fundamental method of play a la the trinity system.
 
However, the very nature of the LAS is meant to be customized frequently, according to the specific demands of each individual fight and/or a player's individual need. That IS a part of the core gameplay and you disliking it doesn't mean that the game is wrong for expecting you to do so. I don't complain when I have to drop one of my heals to fit a CC break on my LAS for Convergence when the squid is up, or on the third boss of Kel Voreth, or on the fire wall boss in SSM. That's what the fight requires, and the game's LAS system was designed to work with those unique fight requirements.	
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I'll note three things here.
 
First, this game does in fact treat non-trinity play as a viable playstyle. "Play how you want" is in fact the operative term describing most of the game, where you can choose to play to the trinity or not as you see fit.
It describes the entire open world game, including world bosses.
It describes the expeditions at both normal and veteran difficulty.
It describes the adventures at both normal and veteran difficulty.
It even describes the normal dungeons because you can go back to them overlevel and play by that style--it's not rewarding, but it's certainly possible if you can get the gear together. And you can. I've done all of them that way.
It describes the PvP, where the queues do not require a specific team composition to enter the fray anymore because when it did, the queues wouldn't pop.
There's only two places in the game where you must resort extensively to the trinity--if nothing else, to obtain the gear required to deviate from them: veteran dungeons and raid instances.
 
So I'm not asking this game to "move away from" the trinity system. Most of the game didn't demand it in the first place.
 
Second, you make it sound like I'm asking for this game to remove or alter one bit of content that actively requires the trinity system, and I'm not. If you enjoy it, go for it. I don't. That's why I gravitate towards Expeditions and Adventures over Dungeons and Raids, only doing the latter when I am so vastly in excess of their requirements that I can break the design and do them in a style I'll enjoy. Alone if need be to not have people insisting I play how they want instead of how I want.
 
Third, trinity-based play is great for players who play a lot of challenge-oriented, dedicated group content--but the majority of people who play MMORPGs don't do that. Every game that I know of allows you to build to the system. But most also allow you to ignore it and provide versions of content that don't require it because there are way too many people who are simply unwilling to take on keeping everyone else alive as more than a secondary responsibility when things are going bad. Why do you think stats like Lifesteal exist in the first place? It's a direct trinity-breaker. It's there so that if you don't want to play to the trinity, you don't have to.
 
This game does something unusual. It tries to pretend that you can ignore trinity play by allowing you to do so all the way up to the endgame before it closes the trap and says "Ha, now that you're here, you're invested! Now, you play the way we want!" And it works about as well as anybody with half a brain and a pinch of objectivity might have predicted it would work.
 
This would not be the first thread you've been in where those statistics have come up, Orrestes. Not even close. Find one where links have been provided to this game's own development team giving them, I'm not bothering to do it again.
If you don't want to believe it, don't. Facts do not go away because you ignore them.
 
And yeah, actually, if the raid developer isn't willing to make raids that most of the playerbase is willing to engage, it's time for the game to get a new raid developer who can produce content that large segments of the playerbase actually want to do instead of content that they have to be carried through or shoved towards forcibly by hobbling everything else.
 
Edited for clarity.
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Games without trinity systems often have lackluster endgames and focus highly on PvP - at least as far as i know.
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			DIdn't GW2 go to a trinity system for their raiding because their current system wouldn't work?	
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DIdn't GW2 go to a trinity system for their raiding because their current system wouldn't work?
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They raid now? Do they like grab aggro and run in circles or?
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Gaffrey mentioned the 3 paths in the alpha phase I believe and that changed for whatever reason but probably came down to resources.
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Also, as for this game being unusual, it's the same as WoW was when I played it, with the exeption that WoW didn't have expeditions that can be done full DPS.
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			Nothing about the LAS system being built to be changed on the fly, thus having encounters that require specific abilities?	
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That's not them being unable to do it. That's them not finding it fun to do it. I've taken my turn in content tuned to require you to strictly play to the trinity. I can do it just fine. I don't want to. I don't enjoy it. I find it really rigid and boring--much the way the OP describes the raids here, to keep this thread on topic.
 
However, and I want to make this point clearly, group content is just fine with me as long as I can do it when I want, and when it's not tuned to force me to ignore most of the choices the game's diverse character build system makes available to me. This game does have some of that in its endgame. But not much and certainly not enough to keep me around much longer without some sign that they finally have figured out why this game can't keep its playerbase and change really is coming.
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Nothing about the LAS system being built to be changed on the fly, thus having encounters that require specific abilities?
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Slingers pre-GA runes were actually a great example of flexible playstyles.
 
Arcane Missile/Charged Shot, True Shot/Rapid Fire, or Ignite/Charged Shot. One was a tidbit over the others, but they were all viable. The only reason physical DPS suffers so harshly is because of RF being the ONLY remaining DPS skill that -forces- you to remain standing still, so it becomes unusable in tons of situations.
 
A large part of the problem is as it has always been - devs are so insistent on not splitting PvE and PvP in terms of abilities that they are balancing both when they have to buff or nerf one side. It's an absurd balancing act, and makes both game types worse off for it.	
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They already do this, in terms of interrupts or stuns (I'm thinking gloomclaw here), but still at some point more DPS/Heal/Tankiness normally wins.
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WoW is pretty darn contemporary, and as far as I know it's still using a trinity system. And there's a reason it gets replicated over and over. It's a good system for creating group content that requires interdependence.
 
And of course it's baked in. Hence all classes having a support tree and a dps tree. Hence all combat having threat/damage/health components. Hence all PvE content in the group finder except for expeditions requiring you to pick one or more trinity roles.	
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			Yes, slingers pre GA rune set was one of the most balanced MMO classes I've ever seen, with several viable DPS builds to suit your taste. Though this is not what yasfan is after. He wants to be able to go in as half dps and half healer and be able to contribute.	
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			Shield surge deeps	
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WoW is pretty darn contemporary, and as far as I know it's still using a trinity system. And there's a reason it gets replicated over and over. It's a good system for creating group content that requires interdependence.
 
And of course it's baked in. Hence all classes having a support tree and a dps tree. Hence all combat having threat/damage/health components. Hence all PvE content in the group finder except for expeditions requiring you to pick one or more trinity roles.
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More single player content will come, regardless of whether or not people enjoy it.
 
It's just gonna come in the form of a new reputation zone, full of the same daily quests, lame 5 man mobs that can be duo'd, and some form of event where you're forced to farm trash for 15 minutes before you zerg a lame, recycled boss down.
 
No real rewards, no real gear progression. So basically more of the same crap that's considered outdated and just overall shit. But you know, this is the Carbine way.
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God I hope you're wrong... Another questing zone for dailies that offer "no real rewards, no real gear progression", would just be a tremendous waste of everyone's time and not at all what the game needs.
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i cant wait to hear the exciting news today they kept secret for so long!
It must be something spectacular right? RIGHT????????	
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i cant wait to hear the exciting news today they kept secret for so long!
It must be something spectacular right? RIGHT????????
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Probably another gear and stat change 
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LOL
 
I spat coffee on myself, good job Oli.	
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Probably another gear and stat change 
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Content died when Carbine lost all control to NCSOFT, some may even remember the time Dev's worked at Carbine! When Wildstar did not have hour long streams about store items? NCSOFT can't even get that right! We are left with a F2P game with little or no content, that depends on a large turn around of new players spending money in the cash shop! A F2P game using that method without being on steam? With no big market push? I fear the worse....I really do  	
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Most of us have not said "OK, so be it" about the demands and priorities of this game.
Most of us have said "screw this game, I'm out".
That's why the game is in the state that it's in.
 
Most of us don't take on a job in the game that we'll do whether we like it or not because most of us understand clearly that this is a game, not a job, and doing stuff we don't like in a game is half a step away from us playing a game we don't like.
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Announcement from Carbine:
 
We're reverting the rune changes back to pre-F2P
We're reverting the crafting system back to pre-F2P
We're going to make the cooking system easier to complete
We're going to make Open-World PvP viable again, even for PvE'ers
Guild housing 
We've fixed the bugs in DataScape and Genetic Archives
We've made all Cash Shop items account bound
 
I kid, I kid....who am I fooling.
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{| class="blockquote"
Announcement from Carbine:
 
We're reverting the rune changes back to pre-F2P
We're reverting the crafting system back to pre-F2P
We're going to make the cooking system easier to complete
We're going to make Open-World PvP viable again, even for PvE'ers
Guild housing 
We've fixed the bugs in DataScape and Genetic Archives
We've made all Cash Shop items account bound
 
I kid, I kid....who am I fooling.
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All MMORPGs that I know of allow you to build to trinity. That's not relevant. What's relevant is whether it's required to get through the content at all available levels of difficulty, or whether you can skip it and still experience the content.
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Personally, I was drawn to the idea of challenging solo progression as stated a long time ago so I will continue to lobby for it because that is the content I want most of all.
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The interdependence is what makes instances *fun*. I get that it might not be for *you*, but you are not everyone. I don't know why you seem to think that you speak for a majority of people out there when it comes to the trinity.
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Maybe they're just too lazy to have fun or something.
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But hey, you're probably right. What do I know?
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Then with only you there, there is no variability.  You never have to make adjustments because you have a different raid comp.  You don't have to cover someone's mistake, or fill their slot cause they died.  You can just do go in there, execute it perfectly, every time.
 
Like, i guess to me, that isn't synchronized swimming, it's like sitting at your piano and playing some basic bach like a robot.
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Yasfan believes that teamwork is actually an illusion in raids. That all we are doing is just solo play in groups anyway- executing scripts at the same time without actually working together.
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Yasfan believes that teamwork is actually an illusion in raids. That all we are doing is just solo play in groups anyway- executing scripts at the same time without actually working together.
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I mean, i'mt not sure that's exactly what she's saying - but raiding IS teamwork. People think all PvE is scripted, maybe it is, but there is a long list of adjustment you make. It's not as unscripted as say - PvP is.
 
However, i find the difference between doing a shiphand and parsing on a dummy very minimal. It's much easier to follow a script when that script doesn't depend on 19 other people.
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technically speaking he is right... i think.... a bit at least ;)... in WS the job of each raidmember is very individual and the group performance is good if each one does their individual job good.
for me as a tank noone else DOES my actions for me i have to do them on my own and when i disconnect my char does nothing so it is a single player experience in a group. the job is often not influenced by others and more by telegraphs or boss mechanics. also the tps from the dds do not influence my actions most of the time, there are encounters where i cant tps with an uptime as high as the dds but thats the encounter and my job influencing the way i have to position/move the boss not the dds who spike in aggro.
obv there are fights you learn easier as a group and talking with your healer, your tank, other dds will improve your perfermance as an individuum. 
when someone dies (for example one of 3 or 4 healers) and the other healers have to do more to compensate and change their focuss to other parts of the raid your task is influenced by someone elses action and here i think it does not apply. 
But mostly its not like you attack a boss together as 1 unit (hive mind) when you execute the fight. obv the preparation/thought process is done as a group prior to playing the encounter but here you think about the bigger picture and how to min/max positionings, buff uptimes, specs, etc.
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for me as a tank noone else DOES my actions for me i have to do them on my own and when i disconnect my char does nothing so it is a single player experience in a group. the job is often not influenced by others and more by telegraphs or boss mechanics.
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Few fights that have tanks share damage.  Or the group in Fire/Air.  Teamwork is depending on someone else doing their solo role.  A tank holding aggro.  A dps interuptting or dpsing.  A healer healing.  1 person clicking this button at this time in the fight.  Person clicking the button has a solo role of doing the action, so others don't have to worry about it.  That's teamwork.  If that person dies, someone else has to take up that role.  Team sports are like that.  A QB passing, a wr running their route and qb expects the WR to be there when he throws the ball on that specific path.  Same thing for a fight, Tank B expects Tank A to be in that spot so he can taunt and switch and do his role.
 
And trinity system does not need 3 people to accomplish the "three" things.  A person can fufill 2 roles or overpower the aspect so you don't need one of the roles.  A dps can have the role of dps and tank, see this in vet dungeons for the DS geared warrior/engineer doing dps and tanking.  But can't heal, so depends on someone else to do that for them.  There's a fight in SSM, if you have enough dps, you skip an event so don't need heals or a tank, so just go 5 dps.	
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It seems not much. Rarely do I speak to someone in game with no idea about the trinity system and how he or she fits into it. Nor do I hear people complain about it.
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As an obvious example, when people complain about long queue times and get told to run as a tank or a healer because the queues are shorter that way, that's people being unable to run content because not enough people want to be any part of the trinity but the DPS. That's a complaint about a game overenforcing the trinity, whether the person doing that complaining expresses it that way or even recognizes it as the case. Their immediate problem is that they just want to play the damn game and the game won't let them. But the real reason the game won't let them in is that the content won't actually be any fun at all if it just lets them in. It's not designed to be fun unless the trinity is present at proportions that require more people to take unpopular roles in trinity play then there are people who actually want to do that. Ultimately, the reason they have to wait is the trinity, even though the actual complaint never mentions it and the person doing the complaining may have no idea that's what the problem is. And really, why should they? It's not their job to think about game design. Understanding the root causes of a complaint is a job for analysts and designers, not individual players.
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And trinity system does not need 3 people to accomplish the "three" things.  A person can fufill 2 roles or overpower the aspect so you don't need one of the roles.  A dps can have the role of dps and tank, see this in vet dungeons for the DS geared warrior/engineer doing dps and tanking.  But can't heal, so depends on someone else to do that for them.  There's a fight in SSM, if you have enough dps, you skip an event so don't need heals or a tank, so just go 5 dps.
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So by your argument, am I playing to the trinity when I go in solo with a hybrid build of attacks, heals, and pets to draw off threat and mitigate damage?
I'm using threat/damage mitigation, damage dealing, and healing, so I think we'd have to conclude that by your definition of the trinity system, I am.
But nobody here would claim that I'm playing a trinity build when I show up in a team for a dungeon, would they?
 
I would describe the cases you're pointing to as being sufficiently overpowered to break the trinity, not work within it. Just like when I enter normal dungeons solo.
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			don't be a solo player.  Don't be another individual in the raid.  fuse together with your fellow teammates and become the fearsome monstrosity you've always wanted to be.	
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As raiders, this is how i feel sometimes.  Solo content just... i don't know, it seems... easy?  boring?
Like say an expedition (which i think were pretty well designed).  Stuff dies easily.  the attacks are slow.  they are easy to interrupt.  You just DPS, int, and BOOM it's dead.
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And waiting on tanks/healers is due to dps being easier to do compared to tanking or healing, less responsibility on a person.
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