Report 856

Report #856
Skillset: Skill: Skillflex
 Org: Serenguard Status: Completed Jul 2013
Furies' Decision:
We would love to implement this, but at the moment it is not feasible. We will
aim to allow this during the combat overhaul. In the mean time, if there are
specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard
Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are
cleared as part of this report.
Problem: Currently, if you skillflex from one skill to another, you still keep
the defenses of the previous skillset. This creates balance problems in certain
classes as it results in people carrying around benefits from some tertiaries
and lessening the weaknesses of the other ones. For example, a Serenguard
warrior could go Moon, drawdown, then switch to tracking and still have all the
DMP moon provides and never face the designed drawback of tracking having lower
DMP amounts. There are other examples, and in many cases it's been found to be
somewhat overpowered. This report seeks to fix this issue once and for all.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: When switching out from a skillset, remove all
 defenses associated with it or make them dormant so
 that they only take effect when switching back.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: In addition to solution 1, raise the skillflex point
 limit to 100 per hour.
Player Comments:
---[Synkarin on 6/27 @ 05:02 writes]:
Solution 1, I don't think we need to increase lessons to flex at this time
---[Nihta on 6/27 @ 05:09 writes]:
I still think that defenses which are meant to be shared (see: astrology
spheres, paradigmatics reimagine, and other like-skills) should not be removed
upon skillflex. I support solutions 1 and 2, and would prefer affected defenses
go dormant for solution 1 instead of being completely removed.
---[Dynami on 6/27 @ 05:29 writes]:
Solution 1 supported! But, if it is all possible without it taking too much
coding, certain temporary defenses should not be removed, as Nihta mentioned.
---[Shuyin on 6/27 @ 05:31 writes]:
Solution 1.
---[Ushaara on 6/27 @ 15:14 writes]:
Fully supported.
---[Xenthos on 6/27 @ 21:10 writes]:
I have concerns about this, as I feel it impacts Commune knights the most.
Skillflex is the only way thus far I have found to enable Crow to be at all
competitive with Night (utilizing one of Night's signature abilities,
Nightkiss). It is extremely unfortunate that such is the case, and I would far
prefer that Crow (and Stag) were able to stand on their own as complete
skillsets. Over the years we have tried many ways to close the gap- what Crow
(and Stag) need are a true "signature ability," something which Crowform &
Stagform just do not provide. We have attempted things such as DMP, +damage,
and have discussed +criticals (the first two were turned down, the latter we
were told would not be accepted). We are quite able to do minor adjustments
here and there, but... those minor adjustments will always be outshone by
Night/Moon on both offensive and defensive terms. These skillsets need some
oomph. To that end, I would appreciate something worked out with the
Administration if this report is accepted in which they will sit down and talk
with the Crow / Stag envoys. We do not really need a "special report", as the
issue is not one spread across many skillsets, but we do need a path which we
can traverse moving forward.
---[Xenthos on 6/27 @ 21:14 writes]:
Pardon: The issue is not one spread across many skills within the skillsets (but
instead entirely down to how the signature abilities shape the end result).
---[Synkarin on 6/27 @ 22:46 writes]:
I'd like to point out that every class deals with tertiaries that are not
considered equal or competitive but they don't always have the option to make
them competitive by using skillflex. This isn't a disparity that is unique to
Crow and Stag, so if a discussion about Crow and Stag is allowed, then other
discussions should also be opened, such as Psionics vs Runes/Dreamweaving and
the various other tertiary disparities that exist. Treat them all this way, or
none of them.
---[Xenthos on 6/27 @ 23:47 writes]:
Which of these other skillset combinations are able to be brought into balance
with skillflex? Those other defenses go away when the user dies, meaning any
such thing is temporary at best. This is a unique scenario pretty much solely
limited to these skillsets, You are not able to make Runes balanced with
Psionics by flexing Psionics away. You are not able to do it with Dreamweaving
either, so I just don't see that point as being valid.
---[Xenthos on 6/27 @ 23:49 writes]:
There is a clear disparity between the skillsets, because Crow / Stag -do not
have- a niche. Night and Moon are more effective at offense, at defense, and
also provide a great deal of benefit in utility purposes (as you yourself have
pointed out). There exists a way to balance them, and this report seeks to
remove that. It is not too much to ask for a discussion in return.
---[Synkarin on 6/30 @ 16:17 writes]:
As I said before, this report is seperate from whatever disparities there may be
between Crow\Stag and Night\Moon. There is no reason to have a special
'brainstorming session' because this report goes through. You've stated that you
agree this change is good for the game. Tertiaries are not all balanced and
equal, Crow/Night are no different and thusly do not deserve any special
recognition beyond what is within your power as an envoy to already do. Fully
support solution 1.
---[Xenthos on 7/1 @ 22:23 writes]:
And as I said before, it is not separate. This change specifically takes
something away. It's plain as day- the report directly impacts this and I want
that considered. Period. We can keep arguing back and forth for comment and
comment saying that if you want, but the end result will be the same- you will
be against it, and I will get to keep stressing how important I feel it is that
it be at least thought about as part of the report's effects.
---[Synkarin on 7/2 @ 03:13 writes]:
Yes, you feel it's important because it directly affects you and you are jumping
on your soapbox to say so. Turns out that your tertiaries are the same as
everyone elses, not equal. Deal with it through channels available to you,
whether it's discussions with other envoys, more reports or what have you.
Despite your assertations, you have the ability to make changes as an envoy. You
have agreed this change is good for the game as a whole, whether or not you get
this discussion you feel so entitled too. Leave it at that. Voice your support
and continue to brainstorm about what you can do with Crow via the other
channels available. This will be the last I say on this subject, though I'm sure
you'll reply.
---[Xenthos on 7/2 @ 21:11 writes]:
No. This is the appropriate place to voice my concerns, on the report which
causes those concerns. They are tied together part and parcel, and no amount of
sticking your fingers in your ears and denying that fact is going to change my
mind here. I want this considered as part of this report, and all you're doing
is ensuring that those who read it are going to be pondering it and the
ramifications thereof (simply because there are more and more comments doing
exactly that). So, thank you!
---[Xenthos on 7/2 @ 21:18 writes]:
PS: I do not feel that this is an across-the-board "good change" (or I would not
be stressing this point so hard). In this one case, I do feel very strongly it
is a bad change.
---[Shuyin on 7/2 @ 22:00 writes]:
I see that the second version of this report still managed to get 15+ comments
over an argument that I feel is best suited on another report that specifically
deals with Crow/Hart. I feel that from a balance perspective, it is much easier
to balance/upgrade/nerf skills when you don't have to take into account external
factors available to a small subset of people. This report (in my opinion)
simply further reflects this balancing perspective. Similar to the snoefaasia
downgrade, I feel that 'unnaturally powerful external buffs' should be more or
less removed from the game. This is so we have less factors to take into
account, namely, class skills only.
---[Shuyin on 7/2 @ 22:03 writes]:
And by class skills only, I mean class skills within your own specific
specialization only. Solution 1 is good.
---[Ioni on 7/3 @ 02:11 writes]:
Solution 1 supported as long as the chemantic/wood defenses continue to go
dormant when you skillflex due to their high commodity costs.
---[Wobou on 7/7 @ 01:56 writes]:
What's interesting about this is it's being proposed by the serenguard and
opposed by the ebonguard envoy. Serenguard have much more to lose from this
change than ebonguard do. As it stands now a runed out serenguard is able to
have drawdown and swiftstripes up. Meaning an aslaran (the most common min/max
warrior race) can have level 3 balance, no eq malus, and the best possible
weapon stats. From what I can see ebonguard just get +dex from trying to abuse
flex. Let's take away the ability for people to access all of their toys at once
so we can give more toys to Crow and Stag (who need them), as it stands now I
wouldn't be okay with much of a buff to either knowing that the top warriors of
the guilds would have access to them and drawdown/nightkiss.
---[Xenthos on 7/7 @ 16:20 writes]:
I'm not really sure what you're going for there, Wobou- Crow Ebonguard currently
get access to 24 dmp by utilizing Flex, which is the primary thing it will lose
with this change. And, again, my issue is not the change in general, but one
specific result of it that I would like to see discussed and addressed (because
no, obviously Crow / Stag are not going to get a significant upgrade now- but
even pre-skillflex it was extraordinarily difficult to come up with something
which was "new" and "novel" and strong enough to make a difference).
---[Wobou on 7/8 @ 04:44 writes]:
I'm just saying their combination is stronger. I understand what you're saying
about attempts to buff crow/stag pre skillflex but I think given the ideas we
were able to come up with (for crow at least) in a short period of time that
it's worth giving another shot. As it is now anything that would buff crow/stag
enough to be equivalent to nightkiss/drawdown would make the combination
massively OP. Basically I think if you ever actually want to fix Crow to any
extent you'll need to lose this. Also what is your justification for being able
to use skillflex better than most other archetypes? My understanding is if I
were to skillflex from psymet to acrobatics I would lose my psymet locked
defenses, why should I lose those if you get to keep nightkiss?
---[Llandros on 7/18 @ 17:54 writes]:
Solution 1. This is not a good solution to skill imbalance. As with trade skills
we should only be using the skills we have active.
---[Siam on 7/28 @ 17:06 writes]:
Solution 1
---[Steingrim on 7/30 @ 23:35 writes]:
If this is done there shouldn't be any exemptions. But also people should be
able to return their artifacts since Estarra publicly posted this is a perk of
skillflexing.
---[Steingrim on 7/31 @ 00:21 writes]:
Http://www.lusternia.com/node/28732?page=3#comment-760116
---[Steingrim on 7/31 @ 00:22 writes]:
I don't want to overstate anything so I found what was said and am quoting it
here. The link is above the quote below this comment
---[Steingrim on 7/31 @ 00:23 writes]:
QUOTE (Turnus @ Jul 19 2010, 11:33 AM) What about using the cord to skill flex
picking up defenses (a tracker with drawdown/nightkiss for instance). Feature or
going to be changed? ----------REPLY from Estarra-----------Feature unless we
find it throws things way out of balance. Personally, I think it's just a small
benefit rather than a game-changing one.
---[Synkarin on 7/31 @ 15:54 writes]:
I do see that Estarra mentioned it was a feature as long as it was considered
balanced. I don't think it really is balanced and the Doctoral Cord still gives
tons of benefit (no lesson cost to flexing) that I don't really know if a refund
is warranted.