107744-going-back-in-time-october-2007-an-old-article-about-carbine

== Content ==
			
http://www.edge-online.com/features/we-were-tired-working-wow/#null
 
 
So While doing some searching for ways to see if i could some home how communicate better with Carbine developers.. 
I found this gem.  Its basically a quicky interview with 2 of the main guys behind Carbine Studios.
It deals with many of the reasons that Carbine ex Wow guys left Blizzard and hints at what they wanted to do with their first mmo.
Then I came this part and was kinda floored. 
 
Fixing MMOs
Of course, the big question mark is what kind of game is Carbine creating? We know it’s an MMO, and there are a couple telling examples of artwork on the Carbine website that show a few hints—humanoid-looking figures, a glowing staff here, an ogre-like figure there—but it’s still not clear what exactly the direction is going to be.
While Beardslee and Gaffney are tight-lipped about the details of their studio’s game, they have a clear idea about what they want to achieve with the first product. In short, they hope their game “fixes” some of the things they see wrong with the genre.
“We don’t think that everything’s right with all the MMOs out there right now, so we’re trying to fix those things,” says Beardslee. “One of the things might be accessibility. Some of these games are still hardcore. I mean, look at Everquest. I think WoW is a lot less hardcore than Everquest but I still think there are elements that are just outside the reach of normal gamers that I think we want to touch.”
But like so many companies today making games for the mass market, Carbine wants to strike that golden balance between accessibility and depth. “You need to have all that depth that appeals to the hardcore crowd because there are a lot of them out there and they’re people who we want playing our game,” says Gaffney. “But also, there are people who have a hard time jumping into the interface and have a hard time getting into the game. So you want to open that game up to be playable by more people, but still more enjoyable in terms of depth.”
 
 
So my Question is.. What changed their mind? What Caused Wildstar to be this Hardcore focused mmo that is not really as accessible as originally they might have desired?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 “But also, there are people who have a hard time jumping into the interface and have a hard time getting into the game. So you want to open that game up to be playable by more people, but still more enjoyable in terms of depth.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Ahahahhahahahaaahahhaah- oh god, good thing I wasn't drinking anything.
 
*looks at Wildstar's CX/AH interface
*looks at Wildstar's achievement interface
*looks at Wildstar's quest interface
*looks at Wildstar's costume interface
*looks at Wildstar's party interf-
 
[critical error, please type /reloadui]
 
Haaaaa... good one. Really good one. :lol:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Was carbine forced to launch before the game was polished over enough? Yes.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
http://www.edge-online.com/features/we-were-tired-working-wow/#null
 
 
So While doing some searching for ways to see if i could some home how communicate better with Carbine developers.. 
I found this gem.  Its basically a quicky interview with 2 of the main guys behind Carbine Studios.
It deals with many of the reasons that Carbine ex Wow guys left Blizzard and hints at what they wanted to do with their first mmo.
Then I came this part and was kinda floored. 
 
Fixing MMOs
Of course, the big question mark is what kind of game is Carbine creating? We know it’s an MMO, and there are a couple telling examples of artwork on the Carbine website that show a few hints—humanoid-looking figures, a glowing staff here, an ogre-like figure there—but it’s still not clear what exactly the direction is going to be.
While Beardslee and Gaffney are tight-lipped about the details of their studio’s game, they have a clear idea about what they want to achieve with the first product. In short, they hope their game “fixes” some of the things they see wrong with the genre.
“We don’t think that everything’s right with all the MMOs out there right now, so we’re trying to fix those things,” says Beardslee. “One of the things might be accessibility. Some of these games are still hardcore. I mean, look at Everquest. I think WoW is a lot less hardcore than Everquest but I still think there are elements that are just outside the reach of normal gamers that I think we want to touch.”
But like so many companies today making games for the mass market, Carbine wants to strike that golden balance between accessibility and depth. “You need to have all that depth that appeals to the hardcore crowd because there are a lot of them out there and they’re people who we want playing our game,” says Gaffney. “But also, there are people who have a hard time jumping into the interface and have a hard time getting into the game. So you want to open that game up to be playable by more people, but still more enjoyable in terms of depth.”
 
 
So my Question is.. What changed their mind? What Caused Wildstar to be this Hardcore focused mmo that is not really as accessible as originally they might have desired?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game didn't change.  The scene changed around them.  MMORPGs were a lot different in 2007.  That was the year The Burning Crusade released.
 
People don't realize how accessible this game would have been in 2007.  Since then, the MMORPG world has gone collectively to a softer place to pad subscription numbers.  And a lot of former MMORPG players were left out in the cold, wanting a more difficult game that felt like one of those old MMORPGs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do we know this? I agree that it certainly looks that way, but is this a known, substantiated thing?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem is guys with your mentality assume that you are "a lot". You are a few. A few is not enough with today's budgets. You have to aim for a diverse bunch. That is what WoW does perfectly. There are layers of content for EVERYONE.
----
			WOW of today seems to be more cater to super casual players or kids.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
But like so many companies today making games for the mass market, Carbine wants to strike that golden balance between accessibility and depth.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nope, they arent a few. But surely arent the majority. 
Casuals already have 2 major games to go: GW2 and WoW.
 
If Wildstar go to full casual path will probably run into an even bigger competition. What it needs to do is to have some balance, giving hardcore players their over the top reward and giving the "midcore" or casuals relevant reward that can earn through SKILL not RNG or grind.
 
I dont have enough time to raid as I used to back in 2007. Today I want to jump in and be able to progress my character but dedicating 2 hours tops. But I dont want to AoE AoE AoE content or just zerg it down. I want to actually be challenged to face it as a skilled player, but respecting my lack of time to farm up a lot of rep.
----
			People forget WoW got big because it was easy and forgiving compared to brutal Skinner boxes like Everquest and FFXI ("Home Of The 19-Hour Raid!").	
----
			Looking at the complains it looks like it is wildstar dungeon mechanics that is the main reason why some many players have burn out and unsub from the game. Crappy rewards and a timer means they don't get to enjoy doing dungeons when raids are unavailable.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So my Question is.. What changed their mind? What Caused Wildstar to be this Hardcore focused mmo that is not really as accessible as originally they might have desired?
----
			Vet dungeons are made for causal players ? Many players would disagree on that.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 why can't hardcores have just the raids?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem is guys with your mentality assume that you are "a lot". You are a few. A few is not enough with today's budgets. You have to aim for a diverse bunch. That is what WoW does perfectly. There are layers of content for EVERYONE.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Vet dungeons are made for causal players ? Many players would disagree on that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
why can't hardcores have just the raids?
----
			Then they should have a hardcore mode for level 50 >.<.. Do you think they should remove timers btw?	
----
			Like I said in another thread:  Hardcore and casual are not mutually exclusive. Your game can have content for both types of players.  There's no reason why there can't be a super hard mode difficulty for the people who want to be challenging the absolute highest difficulty possible. And there's no reason there can't be an EZ mode for people who don't want to push themselves.  The only thing you have to make sure to do is to scale the rewards accordingly.   	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
could it use improvement? Yes.
Was carbine forced to launch before the game was polished over enough? Yes.
Hopefully it will only get better.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They extended realease like 8 months. Worked on this for over 9 years...
----
			
“We don’t think that everything’s right with all the MMOs out there right now, so we’re trying to fix those things,” says Beardslee. “One of the things might be accessibility. Some of these games are still hardcore. I mean, look at Everquest. I think WoW is a lot less hardcore than Everquest but I still think there are elements that are just outside the reach of normal gamers that I think we want to touch.”
 
I'm sorry, come again?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
“We don’t think that everything’s right with all the MMOs out there right now, so we’re trying to fix those things,” says Beardslee. “One of the things might be accessibility. Some of these games are still hardcore. I mean, look at Everquest. I think WoW is a lot less hardcore than Everquest but I still think there are elements that are just outside the reach of normal gamers that I think we want to touch.”
 
I'm sorry, come again?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have yet to find a pug that's even been able to FINISH a vet dungeon, nevermind get silver.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you need to pug vet dungeons for attuenement I dont even see reason why you need the attuenement done? [...] So either find a guild or just give up trying
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How about... "4 out of 5 guilds at this point have a 'be done with silver dungeon attunement' requirement to even apply"?
 
Right, riiiight: "OMG THOSE GUILDS SUCK, FIND A GOOD GUILD".
Sure mate. Because the selection is nearly infinite, especially on all the low pop servers.  :rolleyes:
 
TL;DR: Be realistic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How about... "4 out of 5 guilds at this point have a 'be done with silver dungeon attunement' requirement to even apply"?
 
Right, riiiight: "OMG THOSE GUILDS SUCK, FIND A GOOD GUILD".
Sure mate. Because the selection is nearly infinite, especially on all the low pop servers.  :rolleyes:
 
TL;DR: Be realistic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine said that only 1-5% of Wildstar population will ever step or finish 40 man raids .. And also that Raids in wildstar are only for small hardcore % of players ..
 
So the numbers are alright and I signed up for that. Go back to wow if you want everyone raiding, even their mums.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So people should be kept out of raiding not because they lack skill but because they have to pug silver dungeons to even be accepted into guilds.
Yeah, dumbest post I've read in a while. Not going to bother replying to such ignorance any further. And I usually love arguing even moot points.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
People forget WoW got big because it was easy and forgiving compared to brutal Skinner boxes like Everquest and FFXI ("Home Of The 19-Hour Raid!").
----
			Please note that vanilla WOW =/= current WOW, because blizzard really screwed up in 2010. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's also why WoW is slowly becoming smaller.
When talking about accessability, people tend to forget the time factor. 10 years ago, mmo were still a niche genre, so gamers needed some hand holding. Now it's the opposite : everybody and their grandmother know how mmos work under the hood, we need no more hand holding, and better challenges.
----
			Well if they up the combat difficulty level to decent instead of spoon feeding, I can see WOW being back to recovery. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's an assumption on your part with no data to back it up.
 
MoP launched with a fairly hefty daily grind and it was apparently so bad on sub numbers that they're flat out removing daily hubs in WoD.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well if they up the combat difficulty level to decent instead of spoon feeding, I can see WOW being back to recovery. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
WoD's gutting combat pretty heavily, which is a big part of why I left. :\
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkiRehqifV8
 
Sorry for derailing, btw. I'll stop.
----
			
Back on topic..
 
Sometime between 2007 and now, investors got involved, other people with suits and checkbooks got involved, and said "that's too much of a niche market.. we want you to retool things for a broader market."  They got to keep some of their Vision (to borrow from Brad McQuaid, RIP) but a lot of the direction was likely taken out of their grasp if they wanted to keep the project funded and moved closer to viability.
 
As for the interface.. if you don't like something, the API is wide open for you to change it, ask someone else to change it, or - hells.. hire someone to change it.  I'm sure there's LUA mercenaries.	
----
			
Except those financiers would have told them to make the game more accessible like they had planned to in the beginning since this is what makes the most sense cash wise...
 
In the end even "hardcore"players will have to grow up one day, get a job, have a family etc. and notice there just isn't much private time left after all is said and done.
 
I just don't feel like the investors get the most bang for their buck when the devs are working on raids 1% of the population will enjoy and resubscribe for.
 
I agree with making the gates skill based. At least you feel like you're improving your playstyle, not your capacity to shun your whole life to play a game.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Assuming that dozens of millions players through 10 years of MMOs do know in 2014 how mmos work is quite acceptable, I guess. Also, grinding does not equal challenge.
----
			
Alright, lets just throw the words "casual" and "hardcore" in the garbage can and forget about them because all it does is add to the confusion and controversy.  Let me rephrase my earlier question.  Why can't a game have both easy content and difficult content?  Shouldn't the difficulty of a game ramp up the further you get into it?  Games are supposed to get harder the further you go, not be the same difficulty from tutorial to end.
 
{| class="blockquote"
No one is asking for Raid Nerfs. They are asking for access. Will QQ raids are too hard posts come? They sure will. Everyone should atleast have the option to go in and get stomped. No other game completely locks out the so called "casuals". It's a bad idea. That's why.
----
			Ask 500 gamers what their definitions for Hardcore, Casual, Tedious, and End Game are and you will get 500 different definitions for each of those.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
http://www.edge-online.com/features/we-were-tired-working-wow/#null
 
 
So While doing some searching for ways to see if i could some home how communicate better with Carbine developers.. 
I found this gem. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
...
 
I finished vet STL and vet KV with dungeon pugs before I could even down them with people in my guild.  I've also had several guildies get silvers in pugs.  Pugs will get better and better at doing them everyday as more people learn the fights.  It just takes awhile for that knowledge to propagate through the playerbase.  I used to think Stormtalon was the hardest boss I'd ever seen, but after dying to him countless times and learning a few tricks about the mechanics, he's quite easy now.  There are a lot of bosses in vet dungeons that literally seem impossible when you first try them, but as you learn the mechanics it gets easier and easier. 
 
For example, it took me a loooong time to realize that the lightning Stormtalon drops right after the knockback phase always strikes about 8 meters away in the direction you are facing.  Once you know that, its much easier to dodge.  Without that knowledge, it will kill you every time as you run back to the boss.
----