122758-to-the-folks-pushing-up-decor-prices

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Please, please stop trying to push up decor item prices. I can understand the thrill of making profit through a fictional market, really I do. But many builders are trying to make cool, interactive places for the community; we're trying to make something lasting within the game that others can be inspired by and have fun with.
 
When you take items like Maintenance Platform—a newly-added building block decor that cannot be purchased from a vendor— and run the price tag from under 1 plat to 18+ plat overnight, and then attempt to constantly buy all the new postings before anyone else and resell them at your exorbitant mark-up price, it's actually harmful to the game's quality. Do you really need that much profit? Do you think people will spend that much?
 
I realize this won't do much considering how apathetic most market players are, and that it will probably not be seen by the person currently pushing up the Platforms. But, again, I'll ask anyway: Please stop, you're killing the fun for others and being quite unreasonable about it.
 
Bloody well wish building blocks weren't ever strictly BOE drops, for this very reason. <_<
 
(edited for clarity)	
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Please, please stop trying to gouge on decor items. I can understand the thrill of making profit through a fictional market, really I do. But many builders are trying to make cool, interactive places for the community; we're trying to make something lasting within the game that others can be inspired by and have fun with.
 
When you take items like Maintenance Platform—a newly-added building block decor that cannot be purchased from a vendor— and run the price tag from under 1 plat to 18+ plat overnight, and then attempt to constantly buy all the new postings before anyone else and resell them at your exorbitant mark-up price, it's actually harmful to the game's quality. Do you really need that much profit? Do you think people will spend that much?
 
I realize this won't do much considering how apathetic most market gougers are, and that it will probably not be seen by the person currently gouging the shit out of the Platforms. But, again, I'll ask anyway: Please stop gouging decor, you're killing the fun for others and being quite unreasonable about it.
 
Bloody well wish building blocks weren't ever strictly BOE drops, for this very reason. <_<
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Well, I'm Dominion so the offer of help is appreciated but I can't take you up on it, Vic. :P
 
I'm not really starved for anything right now anyway, my current build is almost finished. I've just been watching this person (persons?) driving up the price of the Platforms the last several days, and it's pissing me off because they're great items that I know a lot of players want. We just don't have any good flat metal building blocks other than this piece.
 
In the end I don't mind folks playing the economy, that's what it's there for, but I don't see a good reason for this type of brutal gouging.	
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This problem sorts itself out when nobody actually buys then anymore for those insane prices.
Just keep producing the items and keep them off the market for a while until only those overpriced ones are there.
 
Once people see they do not sell, you can put yours up again for the normal prices.	
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Oh I'm not trying to sell. And although the problem does peter off, the fact that the Platforms have been jacked to 20p and only reduced to 18p a few days later suggests that this item will be gouged beyond access for the next while. That's a problem when someone's waiting for these core items to finish a build, and it's a bigger problem when community events like Thaydfest are coming up soon.
 
It's the type of thing that will work itself out, but only after the gouger has milked the uninformed and/or fun-blocked players for several weeks. Kinda makes me wish there was a price cap on decor... no item in this game is worth more than 5p.	
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There's no such thing as price gouging in an ecomony comprised entirely of luxury items.  Ridiculous inflation is something entirely different from price gouging.
 
Ridiculous inflation is also a self-correcting problem in a free market economy comprised entirely of luxury items, especially when a monopoly is impossible to achieve, such as it is in Wildstar.
 
Here's how you kill the practice:
- Silly Bugger buys up all of an item listed at the AH, and relists it for a ridiculous sum.
- You go out and get some of those items, and list them for a substantial savings over what he's asking, but still far above the previous going rate.
 
Now, Silly Bugger has to either double down, buying yours up at your inflated asking price so he can relist them at his inflated asking price, or wait until yours have filtered out of the market to sell any of his.  Unless someone with no knowledge of the market, no patience and plenty of money to burn comes along, he'll be waiting forever.  There's one born every minute, mind you, so you might even sell one or two of the thing.  Meanwhile the original S. B. is sitting on inventory while listing fees nibble on his bottom line.  If he does double down, you get back out there and farm up some more of the item he's trying to corner and keep sticking it to him.  Enlist a couple of friends if you've got some - you'll outpace him faster and enrich your friends!
 
If you keep at it, S. B. will hit his threshold for loss or run out of money to back his attempt to corner.  Prices stabilize at something resembling fair market value, and Bob's your uncle.	
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This problem sorts itself out when nobody actually buys then anymore for those insane prices.
Just keep producing the items and keep them off the market for a while until only those overpriced ones are there.
 
Once people see they do not sell, you can put yours up again for the normal prices.
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Yep! I wanted to buy next tier for my garden. Tier 2.
 
Tier 3, about 4g
Tier 4, about 5g
 
But oh boy Tier 2? 50g + ....now of course for level 50 it aint all that much. But this is upgrade people wanna buy at lvl 20.
 
BUT! Guildie architect came to rescue and I got it for free.  Soo IN YOUR FACE! :D	
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Oh I'm not trying to sell. And although the problem does peter off, the fact that the Platforms have been jacked to 20p and only reduced to 18p a few days later suggests that this item will be gouged beyond access for the next while. That's a problem when someone's waiting for these core items to finish a build, and it's a bigger problem when community events like Thaydfest are coming up soon.
 
It's the type of thing that will work itself out, but only after the gouger has milked the uninformed and/or fun-blocked players for several weeks. Kinda makes me wish there was a price cap on decor... no item in this game is worth more than 5p.
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There's no such thing as price gouging in an ecomony comprised entirely of luxury items.  Ridiculous inflation is something entirely different from price gouging.
 
Ridiculous inflation is also a self-correcting problem in a free market economy comprised entirely of luxury items, especially when a monopoly is impossible to achieve, such as it is in Wildstar.
 
Here's how you kill the practice:
- Silly Bugger buys up all of an item listed at the AH, and relists it for a ridiculous sum.
- You go out and get some of those items, and list them for a substantial savings over what he's asking, but still far above the previous going rate.
 
Now, Silly Bugger has to either double down, buying yours up at your inflated asking price so he can relist them at his inflated asking price, or wait until yours have filtered out of the market to sell any of his.  Unless someone with no knowledge of the market, no patience and plenty of money to burn comes along, he'll be waiting forever.  There's one born every minute, mind you, so you might even sell one or two of the thing.  Meanwhile the original S. B. is sitting on inventory while listing fees nibble on his bottom line.  If he does double down, you get back out there and farm up some more of the item he's trying to corner and keep sticking it to him.  Enlist a couple of friends if you've got some - you'll outpace him faster and enrich your friends!
 
If you keep at it, S. B. will hit his threshold for loss or run out of money to back his attempt to corner.  Prices stabilize at something resembling fair market value, and Bob's your uncle.
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Unfortunately, I think Esper's not talking about a pure market-forces kind of thing.  I think we're talking about EVE-style resellers.  That can happen (it's why those people have so much money; buy something cheap and re-sell it for a markup, you get free money).  I've done that before, but not to that extent.  Yes, nobody will buy them at whatever price they may hit, but they may sell them slightly below that.  And if a person buys them all at 1p, then resells even one at 10p, he's got nine that he can sell at any price for pure profit.
 
They're a bit of a rarity in Wildstar, the AH players, but they do exist.
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Well let me start by writing that I view price-gouging as any attempt to buy-out all instances of an item with the intent to resell at an outrageous mark-up (what counts as outrageous is obviously up for debate; I would start with 300% of original price, and beyond). Therefore, luxury items or not, this is price-gouging where I come from. I'm talking about MMOs here... not wall street. :P
 
As for the rest of your post, it's a sound theory and I'm sure would work if put into practice. The problems though are several:
 
1. I don't have the time or desire to mindlessly farm one decor item just to try to punch down another player's mark-up
2. Maintenance Platforms should never be above 1p, so even if I dropped my price way under the gouger's, I wouldn't feel comfortable making more than the item is really worth. Consequently I'd be wasting my time\
3. I don't even know where to find them, though they seem to be semi-common
 
I also think that there's an underlying assumption about the gouger in your post, mainly that this person is going to act on threats to their income. In my experience, the top gougers in MMOs have so much gd money they really don't care about risk and will just do everything they can to turn a heavy profit. That's the fun for them.
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Well let me start by writing that I view price-gouging as any attempt to buy-out all instances of an item with the intent to resell at an outrageous mark-up (what counts as outrageous is obviously up for debate; I would start with 300% of original price, and beyond). Therefore, luxury items or not, this is price-gouging where I come from. I'm talking about MMOs here... not wall street. :P
 
As for the rest of your post, it's a sound theory and I'm sure would work if put into practice. The problems though are several:
 
1. I don't have the time or desire to mindlessly farm one decor item just to try to punch down another player's mark-up
2. Maintenance Platforms should never be above 1p, so even if I dropped my price way under the gouger's, I wouldn't feel comfortable making more than the item is really worth. Consequently I'd be wasting my time\
 
I also think that there's an underlying assumptions about the gouger in your post, mainly that this person is going to act on threats to their income. In my experience, the top gougers in MMOs have so much gd money they really don't care about risk and will just do everything they can to turn a heavy profit. That's the fun for them.
 
 
 
 
A neat theory, but it's not going to work. :P
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At what point do you become PriceMaster, deciding how much each item in game should go for? If a single person buys a platform at 18p, it makes you wrong. These items are worth whatever the player is willing to pay. If there are people willing to pay 18p for a platform, that automatically makes that item worth 18p. How much things should cost is not up to you. This is just a "sucks for you/wait it out" situation, whining about it won't change a damn thing.
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			Also, stop assuming people are actually paying that ridiculous price and using that assumption as some kind of tangible proof. You don't know, and I don't know, that these are selling at that price.	
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Just so we're clear, it isn't technically price gouging when it's applied to a luxury good.  Price gouging assumes you HAVE to have something, therefore the seller takes advantage of the infinite demand of the product.
 
What's going on is technically called price fixing, when the retail across the board is raised (even if it's just by one person), leaving those who want to buy the item with no other options.
 
Otherwise, both of those are truly issues, though I will say that you could technically sell the items after grinding them at something like 2p.  Maybe it's higher than it's worth, but think of it as a finder's fee for being robin hood.  This assumes it's enough of an issue to warrant direct action, though.
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Call 'em trolls all you like; they've got a valid point. You're presuming to assign a fair market value for an item without even knowing how it's obtained.  How is that any different from the behavior of the aspirant monopolist about whom you complained?  I'll tell you how: he's got an interest in the transaction.  It's his business.  You're not interested in buying, selling or acquiring the thing yourself.  You're minding his business on behalf of whom, exactly? 
 
 	
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It's either supply and demand, or more likely someone is attempting to price fix the market. Either way, it'll pass, just wait it out.
 
It's not price gouging though, these are luxury items, as is essentially everything listed on the AH in a MMO. 
 
Not saying it's not frustrating. But by making a fuss about it you're just putting ideas into peoples heads and probably making the situation worse.
 
Well, I'm off to see how much a Maintenance Platform sells for on my server. I have one (gained as a drop I hasten to add!). It's yours for the bargain basement price of 15p, that's a 5p saving! :)	
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Arbitrage is a time honored market force.  A few ways the down-to-earth person can capitalize on it.
 
1)  Make platforms for your friends and family at cost, or cost + whatever minimal amount you assign to your time and labor.
2)  Make platforms to sell and see if our enterprising monopolist will scoop them up.  If he doesn't, he doesn't control the market.  If he does, hey money for you.  You can even experiment and play games seeing at what price will he buy them to flip them higher.  50% of his targeted price?  75%? 30%.
 
I think that's about it.  It's a pretty natural activity.	
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I really wish hitting the back button on my mouse wouldn't fubar my entire reply... screw forums...
 
Both your replies to my post are rude and misinformed. You assume I'm trying to get a price reduction for myself when I've already stated I don't need this item and my build is almost finished. You seem to enjoy making me out to be some greedy, lazy whiner who just wants the economy to suit him at a turn.
 
Do you even read, bro? This is about an item being hard-gouged for the last 5 days, and what that means to the building community. The OP is a request, to which I added several times "please".
 
Go troll somewhere else, Old Man.
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It's either supply and demand, or more likely someone is attempting to price fix the market. Either way, it'll pass, just wait it out.
 
It's not price gouging though, these are luxury items, as is essentially everything listed on the AH in a MMO. 
 
Not saying it's not frustrating. But by making a fuss about it you're just putting ideas into peoples heads and probably making the situation worse.
 
Well, I'm off to see how much a Maintenance Platform sells for on my server. I have one (gained as a drop I hasten to add!). It's yours for the bargain basement price of 15p, that's a 5p saving! :)
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Arbitrage is a time honored market force.  A few ways the down-to-earth person can capitalize on it.
 
1)  Make platforms for your friends and family at cost, or cost + whatever minimal amount you assign to your time and labor.
2)  Make platforms to sell and see if our enterprising monopolist will scoop them up.  If he doesn't, he doesn't control the market.  If he does, hey money for you.  You can even experiment and play games seeing at what price will he buy them to flip them higher.  50% of his targeted price?  75%? 30%.
 
I think that's about it.  It's a pretty natural activity.
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I presume to assign a fair market value because I check multiple times a day.
 
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So it's research-based presumption!  On whose behalf do you presume to dictate the price of this item, in which you have stated an absence of interest?
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I presume to assign a fair market value because I check multiple times a day. I've been looking in on this particular item since it was released with drop 4. I've watched its price shift, but it never goes far above or below 1p, until now. So I'm not arbitrarily pulling out of my ass what I think is proper— I'm basing it on the actual numbers I've personally watched for the last few weeks. I also know, though I can't say where exactly the item drops, that it is common/semi-common, because the market sees a handful of them (usually 4-8) posted a day. Which means it's obviously not Digital Marauder Netting or Standing Viewscreen Display, which show up infrequently at most often price around 3-5p.
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You're using the term "fair market value" when it applies to luxury goods. But what is "fair"? That's a subjective term. How is the price of a housing decor item any different to the price of black dye, or any other luxury item that fetches a premium price?
 
You've been watching the market. So it seems has the person who is now sitting on a skyscraper of maintenance platforms.
 
And even if we could all agree that the price isn't "fair", how do you propose to regulate prices anyway? A cap on player wealth? Prevent anything bought from the AH being relisted on it?
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Yes, it was definitely your wish that the developers should institute price caps that caused me to comment.  A free market economy comprised entirely of luxury items gains nothing of value from the interference of an uninterested third party.
 
If you're not interested in acquiring the item yourself and have none to sell, it's really none of your business.  It may be that only the fabulously, foolishly wealthy get to use that one décor item on their plots for this quarter's Thaydfest.  That's a much smaller deal than introducing price caps into the AH economy.	
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Did I propose to regulate anything?
 
 
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Hey Everyone - 
 
If the discussion can't remain on topic, and free of insults, I'm afraid we're going to have to close the thread. I've gone ahead and cleaned up the thread, but if it keeps getting personal, we're going to lock it up.
 
Thanks.
Team WildStar	
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Propose, wish - we could parse words if you like, but if we do I'd like to revisit the whole "price gouging" thing.
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I'm afraid that's where it's going to keep breaking down.  There's a vocal group that believes that the fair market value of an item is whatever the market will bear, and there's another that believes that there's an arbitrary maximum reasonable amount of profit that we should all accept.
 
I firmly believe the former is the case in this game, because there's no way for any one player to control the supply.  There's no way to stop people from seeing the asking price of an item, finding out how to get it themselves and concluding that it's worth the work to go get the thing.
 
Esper, I thought you were being arbitrary when you decided how much you thought other people should profit from selling items you don't wish to buy, sell or acquire.  I thought you were being obtuse when you redefined "price gouging" to serve your argument.  There are plenty of succinct and applicable terms to use to describe the practice you were asking players to cease, but none of them have the same yellow flair, the same criminal connotations that come with "price gouging."  The fact that it's not really applicable should bear on its use, and I think if your argument is strong enough, it'll stand on its own legs without the term to prop it up.	
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			Shiphands. You get them from Shiphands. Chain run Vet Shiphands, and you'll get some. (Along with landing pads, boarding ramps, doors, scanners, etc.)	
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Shiphands. You get them from Shiphands. Chain run Vet Shiphands, and you'll get some. (Along with landing pads, boarding ramps, doors, scanners, etc.)
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Esper, I thought you were being arbitrary when you decided how much you thought other people should profit from selling items you don't wish to buy, sell or acquire.  I thought you were being obtuse when you redefined "price gouging" to serve your argument.  There are plenty of succinct and applicable terms to use to describe the practice you were asking players to cease, but none of them have the same yellow flair, the same criminal connotations that come with "price gouging."  The fact that it's not really applicable should bear on its use, and I think if your argument is strong enough, it'll stand on its own legs without the term to prop it up.
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That's a great idea.
 
You can't make Maintenance Platforms.
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I think there's a lot of talking past each other here. I'm probably being foolish by inserting myself but here it goes...
 
Esper: Hey, to those of you individual players who are jacking up prices, please stop. You're hurting the housing community.
Readers' interpretation: Why are these prices so high? It's not fair. I shouldn't have to pay these prices for these items.
 
I can understand how people got there based on what was said. But I think many missed the part where Esper is basically just asking players not to do the thing. I think a lot of people just saw someone "complaining" and jumped on a bandwagon, driving Esper into a more defensive position and  burying them under an economics discussion. In reality, they just wanted to make a plea to the price fixers themselves, but got increasingly frustrated and agitated when everyone missed their point.
 
"Gouging" -- Several people got fluffed up about Esper's usage of the word "gouge" when they really meant "fixing." I think this is where things really started to slide into a bad zone. Yes, "gouging" means talking about necessary goods (think of gas stations dramatically raising prices right after a hurricane; and yes, it's illegal and the government will come for you. See: Superstorm Sandy) and technically speaking, there can't be "gouging" in a pure luxury-based economy. But I think the discussion that happened around this one word amounted to little more than language nitpicking and equivocation that, while maybe not intended, felt like (or was interpreted as) an attack on Esper's intellect/knowledge.
 
Esper: I don't think the prices should be allowed to go so high, I kinda wish there was a limit.
Readers' interpretation: Carbine should regulate the economy.
(To be fair, without clarification, this is a reasonable interpretation. There's no other way to institute a "limit" aside from the "real world" equivalent of "regulation.")
 
Again, I think this was escalated by the frustration of feeling as though everyone was missing the point. I'm not discussing whether or not it is reasonable to make such a request of other players, but I don't think it was ever Esper's intention to force regulation on anyone.
 
The whole "wish" thing: I don't think that Esper was making a legitimate suggestion that Carbine institute market regulations. I interpreted this statement as "wishful thinking." Lots of us "wish" for things, knowing full well that they are not reasonable requests of the world. ("I kinda wish the Mets didn't suck so hard every year.") However, I think that by this point in the thread Esper was already frustrated and feeling attacked/overwhelmed, and so felt compelled to defend every word to the last breath. (This isn't a judgment, just an opinion/observation.)
 
Readers: This is how a free market economy works. [insert explanations]
Esper: Why are these people talking about how economies work? I just want the price fixing people to voluntarily stop what they're doing.
 
At the end of the day, I think Esper was trying to say that they only wanted to make a plea to the people who are playing the market to stop doing so. I don't think that they expected (or even wanted) Carbine to do anything about it at all. The post was directed towards players. Is this a reasonable request? I don't really think that it's my position to pass judgment on that. I understand where most of the respondents are coming from, and I don't even necessarily disagree with them. But I am saying that I think the fundamental point was missed and that a lot of people are just talking past each other, resulting in frustration and bruised egos.
 
If I've seriously mucked anything up, please feel free to correct me. I was just passing through and decided to stick my nose in everyone else's business.	
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I missed that part.  That is certainly a reason for the price to go up, lack of ready supply.
 
So, farm shiphands, get them as drops.  The method of acquisition isn't exactly the point.
 
I am not an arbitrage trader.  I simply recognize it for the activity that it is.  It's a high information, medium to high risk, high reward market activity.  It requires knowing the products available, their sourcing, and their desireability.  If you inflate the price too high, people will do without -- we've done without maintenance platforms for a long time.  Then you have inventory that's not moving and you've already got sunk investment.
 
Anyhow, carry on.  This stuff goes on in every MMO with a free market auction house or exchange.  It was rather huge in GW2 as their trading post had lots of real time market information available on the web in aggregate format that makes this sort of thing easier to track (the high information part).
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good stuff
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And I do wish Carbine would put caps on decor prices. But as you've pointed out, it was wishful thinking, not something I'd actually ask or argue for— it's simply not important enough and I have no idea what the time costs would be.
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Unfortunately, I agree with everyone saying that the reality of the situation is that this needs to be worked out on its own.
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I get a thrill out of market price fluctuation like everyone else, and recognize it as a valid gameplay function. Unfortunately, as someone whose play style is completely build-centric, and therefore my decor are my skills as well as my gear, I'm sensitive to players controlling the cost of items like this, which you often need many of to be productive. The thread was self-indulgent but we all do that sometimes.that's about it.
 
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	Edited February 21, 2015 by Chillia	
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Or you could write a post asking people to consider a different point of view. :P
 
I'm very discouraged by the attitude around here that writing a request is somehow pointless or bad. Where does this come from? The point of the thread was fulfilled by its very existence and therefore there was never a need to criticize or defend it to the degree its had. So weird.
 
As far as ruffling feathers, I was ruffling feathers the moment I asked someone making easy money to stop making easy money. If people want to engage in a calm debate about the positives and negatives of an actual cap on decor, I'm up for that, sure. What I'm not up for is poor social skills and/or people telling me I have an opinion that isn't fact (no shit?). ;)
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Now back to the topic at hand: Who, in their right mind, would spend 18p on a platform? Most people are well aware of market fluctuations and know to just wait it out. That guy will have his auctions removed, and sure he can repost at the same price, but again, who would buy? I'm willing to bet most people would find a work-around or just wait for the price to drop, which everyone besides you seems to know it will.
 
moderator edit: content
			
				
	Edited February 21, 2015 by Chillia	
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In before thread lock, my housing is full of these but i am not the one price marking them up, I actually also came to find the increased pricing of these wanting more to play wit but i guess i have enough already.
 
I also ever only got 1 from shiphands idk how these people get so many tbh, and i paid 1 - 2 for each of mine so, i doubt to expect new decor to go lower than that.
 
just saying.
 
I also do day farming, so when i say i only got 1 i only got one for 1-2h of shiphand running on repeat. Also not that i want the drop to increase or a lock on bids through the AH for decor to be a mandatory thing, I need plat and this is how i get it but i don't price 10x's the normal so, like it's been said it will fix its self, he/she can't buy them all.	
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I got a Red Crystal Decor from DS, sold it for 20p in few hours, instantly regretted not putting it for 50p.
 
Offer and demand, I'll sell something 100p if people will buy it 100p.	
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I got a Red Crystal Decor from DS, sold it for 20p in few hours, instantly regretted not putting it for 50p.
 
Offer and demand, I'll sell something 100p if people will buy it 100p.
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Alright, the insults have gone on enough here. Since this conversation is no longer constructive nor does it promote discussion about the game but instead encourages attacks on players, I'm locking it. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
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