119036-should-returning-players-get-an-instant-level-50-or-a-major-xp-boost-page-2

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I posted here in response to specific arguments being made. You've gone on to reply to me several times but you don't really engage with the original points I was dealing with. You're talking around my arguments and filling up space with tangents. And sometimes your tone is very "I know better" when you're talking about subjective things.
 
Just stick to the points and the context they were made in if you're going to quote me. It's frustrating having to sit here reading a giant wall of text only to conclude that you're really just talking to yourself and what you're on about has nothing to do with the post you quoted, in its context.
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And again, you're ignoring the context of my discussion/points completely. I was not the progenitor of the 'boring mission grinds' phrase, that was used by someone else and I've used it in reply to them. So obviously I'm not delving into hyperbole.
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If you're wondering why people figured you're engaging in that hyperbole, it's because they thought you were in that camp PlasmaJohn was referring to.  I'm just relating it to you since you asked.  Obviously, Morgana didn't think the missions were boring, she was just answering a hypothesized group (which does exist) postulated by PlasmaJohn.
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I was correcting the reddened portion with response to Olivar's original post.
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Right. So whose on first?
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			I need to stop getting into these thread debates, terrible way to have a fruitful argument. :rolleyes:	
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So maybe this is where we come to the gap between our positions. You've focused only on the logic of Morgana's comment, while my focus was on the illogical 'wrong way to play' conclusion she made, which was based on the very logical premise that RPGs deeply involve the leveling experience.
 
As far as Olivar is concerned in this, I still don't understand what he was getting at with his posts. In the same way your earlier posts confused me because they seemed to fly right by my main point, I don't know what he was getting at bringing the whole RPG thing in. Maybe further misunderstanding.
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So maybe this is where we come to the gap between our positions. You've focused only on the logic of Morgana's comment, while my focus was on the illogical 'wrong way to play' conclusion she made, which was based on the very logical premise that RPGs deeply involve the leveling experience.
 
As far as Olivar is concerned in this, I still don't understand what he was getting at with his posts. In the same way your earlier posts confused me because they seemed to fly right by my main point, I don't know what he was getting at bringing the whole RPG thing in. Maybe further misunderstanding.
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I'll admit to only having read three pages of this, but I'll add my "No" to it, as well.
 
I personally loved the leveling experience. The first time round, I read everything, completed everything, immersed myself as much as I could. I have a life, a daughter and a puppy and a husband, and I took my sweet time getting to level 50. It took just under a month for me because I -wanted- to go slow. The second time around, it took three days to get to 50 because we needed Esper heals and that's what I was goin for. My husband, however, has played in WoW from it's staring days. He is thoroughly sick of "the leveling experience". I understand that, but I disagree with him when he says that "They should simply remove leveling all together and just make skill progression or gear progression etc" because to me, leveling is a gigantic part of the experience.
 
I understood in WoW when they added the boost to 90. I didn't like it - at all, and I still don't, but I understood. This early on in WildStar? No. It's too soon. If you don't like leveling, find someone to mentor you and get all those juicy exp buffs others have mentioned. You don't have to be a hardcore no-lifer to breeze through. I also am very against having fresh level 50s that consist of people who were initially discontent with the game who probably took no time to look at the changes to the classes or the game and expect everything to be jolly good immediately, and then get mad when theyre denied a raid spot some nights or when they mess up during a dungeon or when theyre bored because they jumped immediately to max level and don't know what to do.
 
I realize that sounded a little mean. I don't mind teaching new players, not at all. But in a game where one person not knowing what they're supposed to do, or choosing to not listen when you tell them what and how to do it, can mess up an entire run, an influx of level 50s who potentially might be one of -those- people is just a big old "No" for me. Yeah, you dont need 50 whole levels to learn the base mechanics. Stay out of the red, be in the green, and learn how to use your interrupts, sounds easy, right? You'd be surprised at how many people just...don't get it. I have a couple friends who are great people, I love talking to them, but running Vet content with them is awful because they're...red telegraph magnets and/or they can never get those interrupts off in time.
 
On another note, what server/times do you play that you only see one person in a lower zone at a time? Even when I'm just dicking around in Celestion or other lowbie zones I see random players of all levels just running around RPing or questing or doing whatever their thing is.	
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And that is aside from my point about Olivar's post.  His point was that, while you're correct that the idea of progression is not central to an MMO, it is central to an RPG.  Hence, his quote that you were forgetting the RPG portion of the MMORPG equation when it comes to a game like Wildstar.  I was trying to explain his position to you.  You weren't technically wrong in what you said, he was simply saying that, while true technically, Wildstar and games like it are MMORPGs, and the progression trend is related to the RPG aspect of the game, not to the idea that there are a lot of people in a persistent world.
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What you are ignoring is that the "boring missing grinding" is the heart of all RPGs. That's what the genre is all about. Boring mission grinding. If you have a problem with that, why on earth are you playing a RPG in the first place? It would be like me insisting on playing a RTS, then complaining all day long that I hate all the micromangement of the bases and armies. It doesn't make any sense.
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Tell me where in my post I put forward the idea that progression is not central to an MMO, or to an RPG. My specific statement was that "an MMO is not a traditional JRPG and it's as much about competitive and cooperative gameplay as it is about leveling". Put it in context. This has nothing to do with progression because progression is included in both scenarios... this is about endgame (the game focus that Morgana was crapping on) and leveling to cap (which she and many others feel is the 'real game', and which she conflated with endgame when she described 50/pre50 dungeons as the same... they are not).
 
I think you guys are misunderstanding this post in a big way, and I don't know why, because I feel I made the point of the post (my disdain for her attitude) pretty clear. It was an attitude I saw from a few responders here, and while I don't approve of the free 50s, I also don't approve of "I don't understand why people race to cap. They're just skipping the game. The game is the world, not the dungeons. The game is what I THINK IT IS".
 
 
 
 This has nothing to do with the dialogue Olivar entered, and which you followed through on!
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The game isn't what you think it is. The game is what it is. On the one hand, you understand (I think) that the MMORPG is supposed to create a persistent world in which emergent gameplay and stories between players occur.  On the other hand, your argument seems to hinge on the idea what these things only occur at endgame in any meaningful way.  Yes and no.  Pre-50 content really shouldn't be considered throw away content considering how much time and effort is put into creating it in the first place, and that probably wouldn't be the sentiment if levelling weren't such a transient condition in the genre these days.
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I still see no point from either of you that's relevant to my post. Here's what I wrote in response to Morgana:
 
 
 
Here is Olivar's response:
 
 
 
Here's your explanation of his position:
 
 
 
Tell me where in my post I put forward the idea that progression is not central to an MMO, or to an RPG. My specific statement was that "an MMO is not a traditional JRPG and it's as much about competitive and cooperative gameplay as it is about leveling". Put it in context. This has nothing to do with progression because progression is included in both scenarios... this is about endgame (the game focus that Morgana was crapping on) and leveling to cap (which she and many others feel is the 'real game', and which she conflated with endgame when she described 50/pre50 dungeons as the same... they are not).
 
I think you guys are misunderstanding this post in a big way, and I don't know why, because I feel I made the point of the post (my disdain for her attitude) pretty clear. It was an attitude I saw from a few responders here, and while I don't approve of the free 50s, I also don't approve of "I don't understand why people race to cap. They're just skipping the game. The game is the world, not the dungeons. The game is what I THINK IT IS".
 
Annoying.
 
So in conclusion, to demonstrate why I've been frustrated with these posts:
 
 
 
 
 This has nothing to do with the dialogue Olivar entered, and which you followed through on!
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Throwing my vote down to the no side as well.
 
From my perspective what would be more beneficial is trying to stir up more interested in the existing content coinciding with a free peek for previous players. Say bonus drops from dungeons or something along those lines to encourage participation. Of course I am not sure even that would be a good idea. Perhaps only if it were limited to BoP items to minimize harm to the games economy. I don't know. Point is it needs to be a multi-pronged approach that benefits more than simply returning players.	
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No, infact it should take longer than it already does to get to max level.
I'm personally very tired of this "get max level in a few days and then the game begins" crap.
 
I miss games where it took hardcore players weeks and even months to get high level and games introduced end game style content as LEVELING incentives and it contributed to your leveling exp.
 
I wish it would take at least 500 hours to get to level 50, if not more.
Especially because Carbine created these massive and beautiful zones and you zip right past them so damn fast that you barely notice them.
 
I'm tired of this lazy attitude of "give me level 50 out of the box!" No, this isnt wowcrack.
Instant max level and quick leveling spans break one of the most defining traits of an MMO, the leveling expirence and your level feeling like a progression.
 
I'm really disappointed that the MMO market has turned to catering to lazy and no skill PvE, even WildStar is contributing to this problem. only 97 hours to max level, what a shame.
 
Carbine created so many areas and beautiful zones, and not one was used for an extended period of time until the end game daylies, and Carbine failed to do anything interesting with those areas as well. They could have added more story and questing content, instaed they made a 15 minute quest line if that, and dumped monotanous daylies on us.
 
What a waste. WildStar is so full of wasted effort.	
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What a waste. WildStar is so full of wasted effort.
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Just level up at your own pace. Game is great to play, as a new player I wanted to powerquest to 50 fast, but I found myself staying in almost each zone to finish questlines and reading quest texts sometimes as well.
 
This game has a surprising level of detail into it, shows it was developed as a work of love, not as a cash grab as most MMOs out there. 
 
Also it doesn't take that long to level up, I'm almost 45 and played for just 2 weeks or so, and learned mostly alone through failures.
 
Your suggestion will come into place when (if... sadly) WS makes it to the 3rd expansion with level cap increase or so, so you can catch up faster (after you level a char to max though...).
 
Until then you need to take your time and learn the game.	
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I would say this rings true for just about every MMO since WoW.
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Vic, I don't think we're connecting on the response to Morgana/Olivar thing. If you think calling her out for using bias to support a logic argument is focusing on the less important part, that's all you.
 
As far as your points about endgame, have you ever played in a progression environment? Scheduled raiding, PVP, but also including veteran farm (or for example in WoW, challenge mode/mythic). I have about six years of experience there and if you haven't been part of that scene then I'm not sure you can make an argument that it's the same as leveling.
 
My personal distinction between leveling and endgame is that endgame as a gameplay concept = stable constraints (unlocked all skills, talents, etc), cool rewards that don't come quick, and a hard+ challenge (I would class leveling in all MMORPGS as easy). It's a pretty significant distinction. Do you think raiding with four abilities for blue drops would be a major success in an MMORPG, or were you implying that the level cap is arbitrary? Either way I don't know where you were going with that example.	
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No I mean they've consistantly made zones/areas/content and then not utilize it for something meaningful.Prius Online was the exact opposite, it used its zones very well and consistantly, you couldn't just blaze through them at lightspeed, it actually took time to complete the areas.The dungeons in WildStar do nothing for leveling, where as games like TERA and Prius utilized dungeons for an exp gain and a useful purpose.WildStar's design as so much useless and fluff content that was a waste of Carbines effort even more every zone and area they've made in the game is so under utilized and wasted.They really could have done so much more with the new zones and created something worth doing but instead they stuck a couple of short quest lines and a few 5 player quests and dailies.          
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I don't agree that Tera utilized its zones any better. Dungeons were utilized better because it took longer to level in general, but the zones weren't any more content rich or interesting.
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Are you implying that it took 300 hours to cap in Tera?  If so, it didn't take me anywhere near that long; maybe 200 tops, and I never left a zone before completing the BAM quests.  If you're saying there was stuff to go back for after cap, then maybe, but I quit when it went F2P so I wouldn't know about that.
 
I don't see any spreadsheets or links supporting your argument either, so don't make like your supposed data is factual.	
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Are you implying that it took 300 hours to cap in Tera?  If so, it didn't take me anywhere near that long; maybe 200 tops, and I never left a zone before completing the BAM quests.  If you're saying there was stuff to go back for after cap, then maybe, but I quit when it went F2P so I wouldn't know about that.
 
I don't see any spreadsheets or links supporting your argument either, so don't make like your supposed data is factual.
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I miss games where it took hardcore players weeks and even months to get high level and games introduced end game style content as LEVELING incentives and it contributed to your leveling exp.
 
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I'm pretty sure you didn't log and take account of your play status.
I checked mine when I hit level 60, and It was at 305 hours.
And even if you did 200 hours that's still twice as long as my could be faster 97 hours.
 
You wont agree because it's against your opinion so ofc.
 
Conversation over.
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YES!!  So much this!  The problem as I see it is that games began catering towards the endgame only, starting with WoW during TBC.  Now just about every game focuses on giving players meaningless endgame grinds instead of making the leveling process longer and more meaningful.  The focus for these persistant worlds that MMOs are supposed to be should be the journey, not being able to hit max level within hours os the latest expansion then try to find stuff to do.  In my ideal MMO it would take at least a year to hit the max level, and that's for someone who truly chose to race and miss out on a lot and ground out as much xp as possible.
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			I could see this being useful after a few expansions and level cap raises but right now its not really necassary.	
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YES!!  So much this!  The problem as I see it is that games began catering towards the endgame only, starting with WoW during TBC.  Now just about every game focuses on giving players meaningless endgame grinds instead of making the leveling process longer and more meaningful.  The focus for these persistant worlds that MMOs are supposed to be should be the journey, not being able to hit max level within hours os the latest expansion then try to find stuff to do.  In my ideal MMO it would take at least a year to hit the max level, and that's for someone who truly chose to race and miss out on a lot and ground out as much xp as possible.
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			I've never played a MMO yet that has enough to do to keep me busy, when I played WoW(every expansion) I quickly reverted to the only on during raid night schedule and I did the same thing in FFXIV and any other number of MMOs. Content that's worthwhile outside of endgame raids doesn't actually exist in my opinion, in any MMO, you just have people more tolerant of doing nothing/farming because they're talking to people in game.	
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Content that's worthwhile outside of endgame raids doesn't actually exist in my opinion, in any MMO, you just have people more tolerant of doing nothing/farming because they're talking to people in game.
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Content that's worthwhile outside of endgame raids doesn't actually exist in my opinion
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I'm pretty sure you didn't log and take account of your play status.
I checked mine when I hit level 60, and It was at 305 hours.
And even if you did 200 hours that's still twice as long as my could be faster 97 hours.
 
You wont agree because it's against your opinion so ofc.
 
Conversation over.
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Numbers like this are pretty meaningless. People level at varying rates. It took me something like four months to cap in TERA. It took me... five months to cap in WildStar. Both games I obsessively completed all objectives in every zone before moving on. And in both games I spent the majority of my time roleplaying. That said, I know of people who could cap characters in TERA in a couple days. TERA's quests also suffered from the same, rather boring over-reliance on "kill X many mobs" or "gather X many objects" that WildStar does, though at least the latter diversifies a bit with its path content.
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For people like you, yes, for people like me whom are consistent high performance players.
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What an incredibly condescending sentence.
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