120302-wildstar-is-in-a-good-position

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			Current state of the MMORPG genre is pretty bleak and there are currently no up and coming MMOs for at least another year or 2.4 million people returned to WoW with Warlords of Draenor. Those people will get bored of WoW very quickly as most have already beaten the end game thanks to the faceroll easy raid finder. Soon they'll be looking for another game to play but where will they go?The core of wildstar is solid. The combat, housing system, LAS and amp system are hands down the best in any a MMO. Because of this, I believe WS will gradually recovery its lost populationCarbine just needs to keep improving wildstar so when that day comes, people will have a reason to stick around. I believe drop 4 does a lot to fix the pve side of things.Keep your heads up.	
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			I totally agree. I don't really plan to be all too active in WildStar right this moment but I plan to stay subbed and log in here and there until more updates happen. I think it will be okay.	
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The Problem with MMOs right now isn't even MMOs its god damned LoL and DoTA2.
So much of the F2P and MMO genre was hit hard by the MOBA explosion.
The MMO market would be a far different place if they didnt have to complete with the MOBA market absorbing millions of players in just a few years.
I was hoping desperately that WildStar's combat system would bring in the MOBA savy but, My hopes were misplaced it seemed.
 
The good news is that Many new moba games are crashing and burning before they get off the ground, so hopefully developers won't attempt to cash grab on the MOBA market with all these early failures.
 
 
The biggest issue WildStar faces is its dual faction design, and poor PVP state.
Break down the faction wall and WildStar will have a far better design advantage at retaining players and allowing large guilds and player circles to form.	
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Dual factions are fine. Not everyone likes homogenized MMO's like FF14, Tera, and Guild Wars.
 
The only reason dual faction feel weird in WS, is because of the population. Not because there's anything wrong with the idea of dual factions.	
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Dual factions are fine. Not everyone likes homogenized MMO's like FF14, Tera, and Guild Wars.
 
The only reason dual faction feel weird in WS, is because of the population. Not because there's anything wrong with the idea of dual factions.
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The major issue with the factions in W* is that the Devs dd not account for the players choice. They made the two factions unbalanced enough that one side wins number wise automatically.
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Dual factions are fine. Not everyone likes homogenized MMO's like FF14, Tera, and Guild Wars.
 
The only reason dual faction feel weird in WS, is because of the population. Not because there's anything wrong with the idea of dual factions.
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Going to have to disagree with you there, Fran. OWFFA sounds awful. Hell, OWPVP is already niche.
 
As for the dual faction issue, well... it would be fine if the player base was big enough. The problem is that it's not. What we are seeing is what would have happened to WoW if it had not been so popular. Most of the core functions and features of the game rely on a large player base, and WS is struggling to have one. I hope that changes soon, but that's just how it is.
 
There's nothing innately wrong with a dual faction system, though, and if you feel like PvP gets brushed under the rug or addressed as a secondary concern, it's because it is.	
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Totally not trying to be a party pooper here. I love this game but it is udderly sadening to see how dead the game is currently... we have " Mega " servers and there is 1 forum within the "Server " forums and it takes weeks for something ot be pushed off the first page. I posted a possible returning post like a month ago in new player help and its still on teh front page.
 
I mean i understand ppl dont use the forums as much in wildstar. But the game looks like ot me, how Rift did jsut before it went free to play. The fact that they have held on this long honestly gives me a glimer of hope.
 
I ahve been subbed to this game since it launched and im going ot continue to stay subbed to it in hopes that someday it will get on its feet. In its current state i dont know if i could play it. I leveled in beta and i leveled at launch ive seen both sides and outside raiding i pretty much ran out of stuff to do within the first month and a half. Getting attuned was a nightmare but once u got past that road block and u didnt have a reason to do dungeons, YOU DIDNT because why the hell would u put yourself thru that again but with pugs.. for literally no gain other then some gold you could probably have killed some mobs out in the world for.Other then just trying to get gold for shits and gigs i couldnt see myself doing htem. The dungeons are great and they are fun but theres one setting, Hard. and not hard like challenging.. hard like harder then challenge mode dungeons in wow hard.
 
Which is fine.. but... not for pugs. just no... never. If they had several settings and the difficulty it was at launch anyways being specific for those who put a group together outside of LFG andddddd got some kind of reward for it.. maybe.
 
 
 
Some feedback about things that would greatly help the game though:
 
More accessable solo content
 
More small group content ( stop wit hthe 20 man quests, seriously )
 
10-20 man raids ( i know 20 mans are coming )
 
Easier settings on dungeons ( no not doing adventures i freaking hate them )
 
better rewards for Achievements, no one cares about titles really.
 
More fluff like pets to collect and less housing stuff unless you plan to acutally expand the number of slots a house can have. I ran out of room building a tree house.
 
Modesty from the higher ups. They talk like every things great, come on now.. we are not that stupid. Wildstar is bleeding subs, it has been since a few weeks after launch. It's ok to be honest and talk about solutions. Ppl are more willing to listen and stick it out then when you blatantly lie to them.
 
 
Those are some of the more basic things.
 
Good things the game has going ofr it though that always get me to AT LEAST log back in and look at it:
 
Music, its awesome
Graphics, its pretty too look at
Lore is deep for a new game
original, I love it.. all of it.
Races, most are very different and i even find it hard to play one faction over the other since i love all of them
Combat system, for healing on a my medic it was rough at first being in melee but i got the hang of it and i loved it. it kept you on your toes. there was no zoning out. but that can also be a draw back at the end of a raid night when ppl are burning out it just gets messier lol
 
 
I really really with all of my heart hope this game makes a full come back and rocks. However in a realistic scenario i can say whole heatedly the best thing for this game RIGHT NOW, is probably F2P only for the fact that it could fuel credd sales, bring love and population back to the game, and give the developers more than a trickle of funds to get the nasty FPS issues and graphics/UI related problems fixed.
 
I am still waiting for better optimization for my AMD graphics card :( ...  i don't even know how i raided like this to be honest lol	
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Going to have to disagree with you there, Fran. OWFFA sounds awful. Hell, OWPVP is already niche.
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Well the thing is WS at lunch was just horrible and in many aspects still is.
Of course most of the game core is close to best across different MMOs, that usually have only one good thing.
-combat system is 2-nd best I have ever seen,
-raids are probably best,
-LAS needs a lot of changes, as there is not really enough skill and cross class dependings only good thing about that is that it is LAS
-AMP tree is really good solution, but the problem is that some trees are far more desirable than others and some AMPs are just useless in any situation. Solution for that might be just changing prices of some AMPs (as even some 6p should cost 1p) and replace/change many others.
Outside of this core we have something close to black hole:
-good designed dungeons, that you have no reason of doing (that's main issue) - same with adventures,
-broken PvP (a bit more about it later),
-we have good housing system, probably best I have ever seen, but honestly how much time you can spend on house plot and how much $ is it worth,
-dailies that are just boring and kinda useless after hitting 32k rep. - there shouldn't be PvP servers but OW PvP only for 2 typical daily zones + some incentives for OW PvP
-we have solid story/questline, that is divided into two parts, at low lvls we have humorous game with "plastic" graphic, then we have just that graphic and a lot of ppl was expecting that sense of humor shown in early stages of the game and any pre-release cinematic I can remember.
 
Along with all that we have balance issues, some bugs w8ing to be fixed too long etc. Standard MMO problems, but I have strong feeling, that some are just taking too long to fix compared to competition.
 
Now some thoughts of MOBA vs MMO. Fist of all it is true, that MOBA took away many MMO players, but it is because MMO is making one basic (fatal) mistake designing PvP. Most developers are stick to model of progression in PvP, that is just not working anymore (players just wanna sit for 20-40mins a day log off and not worry about any1`s gear). In MOBA you don't have classic MMO progression. Similar system used in GW2 makes this MMO successful w/o any good PvE content, with at best moderate combat system (although some futures were really good). Players want PvP to be just skill vs. skill (+connection and hardware :P), not skill+gear vs. skill+gear. Despite of class imbalances, that was not really that big issue, WS PvP was killed because of gear progression, gear check system (completely unnecessary w/o gear progression), weak PvP stats in gear and luck of endgame PvP content.
What should WS have?
Good looking, unique PvP sets, that you can buy upon reaching some specific rank and probably 1,8k shouldnt be last one (more like 2,5-3k) and have exactly same stats as basic set. 
Much higher PvP stats on gear and longer combat, so that no player will die in few hits (DMG/healing output should be lowered 2-5x). Only concern here should be arenas and balance of healers/tanks/DPSes, if it will work there it will work anywhere else.
Probably PvE/PvP different skill behavior (this one will hit a bit OW PvP, but because of PvP instances OW PvP do not exist in WS).
Warplots at fixed hours, probably 20 vs. 20 and 2-3x longer - right now it just doesn't feel like war - in fact normal BG can last longer.
No more gear score system, that is simply denying PvP for both veterans and new players (in fact regardless of any changes it should be removed immediately, especially that it wasn't working anyway for BGs at least, were you could still get wrecked).
Cheap initial PvP gear (like you can buy one after 1-2 BGs) or simply initial amount of prestige on every character sufficient to buy whole 50 lvl PvP set.
Much higher prices on ranked (cosmetic) gear, with no limit of prestige on character.
Much more vanity items for high prices (you just can not buy them all) and many of them should be locked by ranking.
 
As for fraction system.... Well just allow players to change fraction/races, as a paid option (suppose there won't be dominion anymore at least in Europe, but better no dominion, than dominion players quit). And good OW PvP without fraction system can also work... What I can not understand with fraction system (well I can but it is the thing, that makes FS bad IMO) is that you have two different frations, with different agendas, yet at some point they are doing exactly same thing, same storyline etc. Why for example dominion is not helping entity? OK for GA it wouldn't work, but for DS??? Just few different cinematics, few different texts and it's good to go. That is what I dislike about fraction system.	
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Now some thoughts of MOBA vs MMO. Fist of all it is true, that MOBA took away many MMO players, but it is because MMO is making one basic (fatal) mistake designing PvP. Most developers are stick to model of progression in PvP, that is just not working anymore (players just wanna sit for 20-40mins a day log off and not worry about any1`s gear). In MOBA you don't have classic MMO progression. Similar system used in GW2 makes this MMO successful w/o any good PvE content, with at best moderate combat system (although some futures were really good). Players want PvP to be just skill vs. skill (+connection and hardware :P), not skill+gear vs. skill+gear.
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			Yes but free trials are long overdue. Plenty of people interested but struggle to get a key.	
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			The leveling content is basically empty. That's not promising or in a good state, but whatever. Trials can only get you thus far, you need actual players who run that content to catch new players interests.	
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			Well, Fran, I personally hate world PvP, so I'll leave that up to the community section that actually cares about it. But I have to say, if I wanted a game that had it, I would not play one that was FFA.	
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Wildstar needs Drop 4, then some major pvp fixes...than it will be in a good spot, although I strongly feel 2015 will be it's year.
 
Also, Dual faction is a good thing IMO, it can create some cool questlines and open world pvp... Here is what I do want to happen though
 
Cross faction battlegrounds and cross faction queing and guilds...
 
That way we can still have Open world PVP and awesome questlines while still getting que pops.	
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			Dual factions are a horrible idea have been since WoW implemented them.	
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Dual faction is a good thing IMO, [...] open world pvp... Here is what I do want to happen though
 
Cross faction battlegrounds and cross faction queing and guilds...
 
That way we can still have Open world PVP and awesome questlines while still getting que pops.
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			I am sorry Fran I have seen a lot of your posts and the game you want seems so completely boring to me.  No factions sucks for PvP.  Do you think its a coincidence FFA doesn't have factions and also doesn't have PvP.  People like having a rivalry.  I want an adversary to square up against.  I don't want to be friends with everyone lol.  There is a reason I don't get that addon that you can read the other factions chat.  I don't want a homogenized game.  I want different gear and progressive pvp gear so I can enjoy the game PvP'ing.  I have played games that everything and everyone is the same.  I don't play them long like FFA.  Gave it 2 maybe 3 months and never looked at that game again.	
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No, the dual factions are NOT fine.
They have never been fine. Dual factions are good for one thing, and one thing only. War Centric lore, which WildStar's lore isnt even focusing around anymore, its all about The Strain now. GET RID OF THE FACTIONS ASAP CARBINE, FOCUS ON THE NEXUS VS STRAIN AND GET RID OF THIS FACTION CRAP. Drusera is a FAR more interesting character than some stupid emperor and his crybaby attutide towards a buncha space hillbillies.
Dual factions are actually very poor at promoting and incentivising open world PVP. Free For All PK is far better at doing this, because it enables EVERYONE to be a target.
Dual factions RESTRICT the usage of guild warring.
Free For All PK+Guild wars is UNDOUBTIBLY better than dual factions BY MILES.
 
AND THEN you add the restrictions of player pools, both PVP and PVE are halfed and cut down by factions, breaking the point of a balanced PVP game, and PVE ques are limited.
 
 
Dual Factions are TERRIBLE idea mechanically for a game, they throw in next to no benefit compared to other paths and designs a developer could take that are BETTER at promoting the end goal of world PVP, structured PVP, PVE and guild fanfare.
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OP brings up a good point. Not much on the horizon.
 
As long as it pays for itself, I'd wager that they will keep the game going for a good two years.  Lots of time there to make adjustments to increase population. I play Dominon side, and im my isolated opinion, I think the population is better than what people say it is.
 
I really don't think there is much to worry about. The game is too good to fail and popuation has already spiked.
 
NCSoft needs to prove to the US MMO player that there are not a bunch of Kim Jong Un's running the company.  
 
Cancelling WIldstar prematurely before giving it a fair shot would be suicide.
			
				
	Edited December 25, 2014 by Axonius	
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I am sorry Fran I have seen a lot of your posts and the game you want seems so completely boring to me.  No factions sucks for PvP.  Do you think its a coincidence FFA doesn't have factions and also doesn't have PvP.  People like having a rivalry.  I want an adversary to square up against.  I don't want to be friends with everyone lol.  There is a reason I don't get that addon that you can read the other factions chat.  I don't want a homogenized game.  I want different gear and progressive pvp gear so I can enjoy the game PvP'ing.  I have played games that everything and everyone is the same.  I don't play them long like FFA.  Gave it 2 maybe 3 months and never looked at that game again.
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Yeah, that just sounds terrible.
 
Free For All Player Killing? The potential for jerks would just be staggering.
 
Being a target from any member of another guild that yours is a rival guild of? What if you like a guild and become invested in it, and suddenly some new leadership wants to rival against someone, and you have no interest in PvP?
 
This whole idea sounds like more of a convoluted mess than dual factions ever could be. I'll stick with Dual Factions. Not just one amorphous blob faction.	
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Yeah, that just sounds terrible.
 
Free For All Player Killing? The potential for jerks would just be staggering.
 
Being a target from any member of another guild that yours is a rival guild of? What if you like a guild and become invested in it, and suddenly some new leadership wants to rival against someone, and you have no interest in PvP?
 
This whole idea sounds like more of a convoluted mess than dual factions ever could be. I'll stick with Dual Factions. Not just one amorphous blob faction.
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No matter how you feel about it, the system is objectively better at promoting open world PVP. And it's easier to design anti greifing mechanics for it.
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Objectively?
 
What factual study was done that shows this?
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The math is pretty simple.
Plenty of games show the behavior of players influenced by both sides, you don't need a scientific study to be made aware of which one performs better.
 
One promotes all players as possible targets and allows all guilds to fight all other guilds and includes all players together, vs the other that allows you to only play versus half the players, and half the possible guilds and divides players apart.
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So it's NOT objectively, then. As its NOT backed up by any actual facts. Just vague rhetoric. That's what I thought.
 
And since Wildstar is a primarily PvE game like the majority of MMO's, making a big change like this, which only benefits half the game (less in W*, since practically no one gives a crap about PvP, and only moderately so at launch) doesn't make this idea any less terrible.
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Um well if you refuse to see some simple facts then its your own opinion denying your understanding. I provided plenty of facts and you refused to recognize and instead drew personal insults, so In that case, conversation over.
 
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You doled out no "facts" just vague assertions to the existence of them. Sorry to see you go.
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Fact 1: FFA includes all players
Fact 2: FFA allows Guild Vs Guild that includes all guilds in the population
Fact 3: Dual Factions restrict the player pool by cutting it by estimation in half.
Fact 4: Dual Factions most often divide players by faction across the game's features.
Fact 5: FFA includes all players, Dual Faction divides players.
 
Facts, that I've said over and over and over and over and over...
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The Problem with MMOs right now isn't even MMOs its god damned LoL and DoTA2.
So much of the F2P and MMO genre was hit hard by the MOBA explosion.
The MMO market would be a far different place if they didnt have to complete with the MOBA market absorbing millions of players in just a few years.
I was hoping desperately that WildStar's combat system would bring in the MOBA savy but, My hopes were misplaced it seemed.
 
The good news is that Many new moba games are crashing and burning before they get off the ground, so hopefully developers won't attempt to cash grab on the MOBA market with all these early failures.
 
 
The biggest issue WildStar faces is its dual faction design, and poor PVP state.
Break down the faction wall and WildStar will have a far better design advantage at retaining players and allowing large guilds and player circles to form.
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Fact 1: Even those who don't want to take part. And letting them opt out defeats the purpose of the change. So that's Fail #1.
Fact 2: See Point 1. Which creates Fail #2.
Fact 3: If people are playing on both sides at all, that's not cutting the player pool in half. Since you can only play one character at a time ANYWAY (minus the dualboxes) That makes it no different than favoring a race. Fail #3.
Fact 4: That's the point of it. You just don't like it. Too bad. Fail #4.
Fact 5: Your opinion, since people have different play styles. Fail #5.
 
So your "facts" are just you saying your opinions to make Carbine shoe-horn this game into some terrible Korean/Japanese Style MMO.
 
"No thank you." I hope Carbine does NOT listen to you.
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No, those are all facts.
Lol at your number 1. Don't like PVP? DONT PLAY ON A PVP SERVER.
Seems you don't like to acknowledge anything factual because you think your opinion is better, showed that when you threw personal insults at me.
 
Whats funny is that quite a lot of people have been asking for the faction divide to be brought down for the good of the game.
Denial isnt just another river in Egypt you know.
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If you bar the PvP changes of FFA by canceling them out on PvE server that defeats the purpose of making it FFA. Simple logic. Hence why they shouldn't even change anything at all. And there was no "personal insult". So "playing the victim" because someone disagrees with you is disingenuous.
 
And there you go again, making vague assertions. "A lot of people" is intentionally vague. Show me a poll. Some actual facts. Not your own opinion stated with conviction. And not a couple of people who agree with you.
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Fact 1: FFA includes all players
Fact 2: FFA allows Guild Vs Guild that includes all guilds in the population
Fact 3: Dual Factions restrict the player pool by cutting it by estimation in half.
Fact 4: Dual Factions most often divide players by faction across the game's features.
Fact 5: FFA includes all players, Dual Faction divides players.
Fact 6: More players included in an area or function within the game creates a higher frequency of encounters.
Facts, that I've said over and over and over and over and over...
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If you bar the PvP changes of FFA by canceling them out on PvE server that defeats the purpose of making it FFA. Simple logic. Hence why they shouldn't even change anything at all.
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Thats not true, if everyone is the same faction, aka no factions:
 
- PvP servers will have all the things fran mentioned, everyone except your party/raid/guild/alliance idk w/e will be red name out of main cities and hubs. This will create far more PvP and it feels more personal than oh he just killed me because im Dominion. You will actually have true rivalries, not ones written to you by lore.
 
- PvE servers will have the same thing except you have to flag yourself, so mostly it'll be organized guild vs guild and whatnot... that is no different than dual faction, flagging ones self in order to pvp in a pve server... it does not defeat the purpose because this is a PvE server not a PvP one, and you significantly increased the population for PvE purposes such as raids and dungeons.
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- PvE servers will have the same thing except you have to flag yourself, so mostly it'll be organized guild vs guild and whatnot... that is no different than dual faction, flagging ones self in order to pvp in a pve server... it does not defeat the purpose because this is a PvE server not a PvP one, and you significantly increased the population for PvE purposes such as raids and dungeons.
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Actually, there's one way in which it would still be considerably better than the current factional restrictions, because right now guild vs. guild only works if it's Exile guild vs. Dominion guild. Right now, two Dommie guilds can't decide to go at it in OWPvP. In FFA, they can.
 
However. I also should point out that as much as I think this game would have benefited substantially from doing it this way from the start, converting from a game that has factions to one that doesn't is a very significant change. We're not talking about a minor development effort there, it would have far-reaching implications over tons of the game's systems in PvP, PvE, character creation, housing... Exile vs. Dommie is literally at the center of the game's design.
 
So as much as I like the idea and wish that it had been done FFA instead, whether it's really justifiable to do it for the sake of what little PvP is left here is less clear to me. I'd be delighted to see them take it in that direction, but I'll also be very surprised if they actually do.
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How did my post about how Wildstar being in a good position turn into a discussion over dual factions or FFA PvP?
 
While I appreciate the bumps, please feel free to create you're on thread on that subject	
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How did my post about how Wildstar being in a good position turn into a discussion over dual factions or FFA PvP?
 
While I appreciate the bumps, please feel free to create you're on thread on that subject
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Plus my guild, Hostile, was at udder and constant war...
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How did my post about how Wildstar being in a good position turn into a discussion over dual factions or FFA PvP?
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This is 'udder war'...
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I think you mean '...utter and constant war.'
 
This is 'udder war'...
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			Ah, ok.  I didn't understand what you meant by FFA Fran.  Thought your were maybe talking about Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn or something lol.  All these acronyms you never know what people are talking about half the time lol.  I kept wondering why you would mention that game when there is no pvp in it.  Only thing I could put together was that it had no factions lol.	
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Ah, ok.  I didn't understand what you meant by FFA Fran.  Thought your were maybe talking about Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn or something lol.  All these acronyms you never know what people are talking about half the time lol.  I kept wondering why you would mention that game when there is no pvp in it.  Only thing I could put together was that it had no factions lol.
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How did my post about how Wildstar being in a good position turn into a discussion over dual factions or FFA PvP?
 
While I appreciate the bumps, please feel free to create you're on thread on that subject
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			I totally agree. My sense of things is that traditional MMOs with boring combat just doesn't appeal to most gamers much anymore which is why you see so many players migrating away from the genre and things like MOBAs and FPS becoming so popular. Wildstar is the only one out there that has the fun combat and difficulty that can appeal to this generation. 	
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I played W* a bunch during closed beta, but decided to give it some time before coming back.  Just got back in, and I'm already having more fun than I did in CB.  Unfortunately, it seems kind of dead on the lower Dominion side, but I'm going to chalk that up to it being early Christmas morning when I logged in? 
 
Either way, glad I came back.  I played Aion for a few months, but found myself missing the combat W* introduced to me.  After combing through as many MMO's as I could (and I mean many many many MMO's), W* has what I'm looking for.  I never got into WoW- I found it's Rock/Paper/Scissor combat to be too tedious for my liking back when I was still mainly a console gamer.  Furthermore, I was hardcore addicted to Smite for a time... but I kicked that habit.  MOBA's have introduced me to a side of the internet I'm the least comfortable with.  So, everything in W* pretty much has been filling the things I've been craving from an online game.
 
I will happily sub as often as I can when I feel the urge, but I will say, I think this game should go TSW's route and go B2P.  A Full box price without a subscription, I feel, is a good way to get enough people that are not flat out "install/troll/uninstall/flame in forums" that F2P usually brings about.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think every F2P player is horrible, but I do understand the frustration that is given to them.  Though, honestly, lifetime subbers can be just as bad... in a different direction. ;)
 
That said, as far as I have been in, W* feels like it's in a better position than it was in last I had time with it.  I hope once I get a little deeper I'll see more than my group of friends.	
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[...]
 
I will happily sub as often as I can when I feel the urge, but I will say, I think this game should go TSW's route and go B2P.  A Full box price without a subscription, I feel, is a good way to get enough people that are not flat out "install/troll/uninstall/flame in forums" that F2P usually brings about.
 
[...]
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What ^ said. Game is already free to play. I've made enough Plat in game that I have 20 months of subscription paid for.
 
This is without farming. Just buying raw material on the AH, crafting it into something then selling the finished product back to players on the ah for a healthy profit.	
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Game is already free to play.
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GET RID OF THE FACTIONS ASAP CARBINE, FOCUS ON THE NEXUS VS STRAIN AND GET RID OF THIS FACTION CRAP. 
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Reading this thread, as a returning player who is doing the leveling, is actually sad to see how disconnected  you guys are from how the game gets presented to a new player. Empty zones, lack of players around, queues for either pvp or pve impossible to get going.
 
The only things that can change that are free trials, a F2P model, a game system that promotes alt leveling, or atleast, doesn't penalize it. Doing a major overhaul like FFA would fix absolutely nothing to bring more players in (oh look, now instead of 1 player in that zone there will be 1 player in that zone, amazing). You should realize that you are just trying to cater to yourself.
 
And actually. It is a sub to play. Thing is that you can sell sub time for in game money.
			
				
	Edited December 26, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
		Language	
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Reading this thread, as a returning player who is doing the leveling, is actually sad to see how disconnected  you guys are from how the game gets presented to a new player. Empty zones, lack of players around, queues for either pvp or pve impossible to get going
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Come time of drop 4.. The 4 million players that returned to WoW will be sick of it again and looking for something else.
 
You've returned for a reason and your reason is why I believe Wildstar is in a good position. I agree with you that a free unlimited trial to level 20, along with drop 4 and a massive ad campaign is the way to get a good chunk of those 4 million players into Wildstar.
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I want to believe and hope you're right.
I'm not religious but Im "praying" that this game doesn't die, I really like my aurin
 
Ill be honest, I'd rather them to set the free Trial to level 35. This way players get to discover the hoverboards, and Farside.
Farside is easily the most fun area in the game. The low gravity and dark creepy corners plus that spaceship quest was incredibly fun and inspiring.
 
20 gets them to storm talon and it ends too soon, lets not exactly follow the model that WoW did, rather Carbine needs to strategically pick a part of the game to halt the trail at that's fun and still interesting to the player.
 
I suggest level 35, because that's the area in which you're going to get into Fardside and the Biomes.
 
After that you end up in Wilderrun, which is a beautiful area to return too. If it were up to me, level 35 would be the best bet to cut the trail.
I say restrict the ship to Wilderrun, and the cap is at level 35.
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I disagree with a level 35 trial as it gives too much of the game away. (basically all adventures except malgrave and all dungeons.)
Level 20 gets you...
 
1. PvP
2. Housing
3. 1st Shiphand
4. 1st Adventure
5. 1st Dungeon
 
If after they experience all that, they are still not interested in making a purchase, I doubt farside would
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Wildstar is a pretty awesome game, unfortunately they have made some pretty major mistakes.
The bigger problem is that people have unrealistic expectations, and there is no reason for them to be forgiving with so many different games out there.
I think MMORPGs aren’t doing so well because of WoW alone. Well WoW and stupid game producers. WoW doesn’t need to improve much to keep making money, so it doesn’t. So it gets boring quick. But it still holds a lot of the market, which means other games can’t get a lot of pop, which can kill a game that has potential.
And it seems since WoW came out it seems not one game producer has realized that against WoW you can’t come out with a half done game and expect it to thrive in a year.
If EA weren’t total retards and kept funding SWTOR for a decent period of time I’m sure they wouldn’t have needed to go F2P and could have improved the game more.
 
Wildstar came out of the gate with a pretty solid game with lots of features. Unfortunately because they were also forced to go live early there were a lot of bugs, and some bad design decisions really turned off a lot of players.
 
Can they recover? That depends on if the producers will be smart and keep investing, and their game design decisions from here on.
 
I do think suggesting to go FFA doesn’t make much sense though. People knew the kind of PvP this game had when they joined, or should have, changing it to something totally different will be more likely lose more players than gain new ones. WoW has 2 factions, so there are about 12 million people who don’t mind that style of game. How much say the same for FFA? “limiting” your targets to half of the games population isn’t that much of a limit. It’s like saying being is Bi is best because everyone is a potential target. I don’t find any problem with the 2 or so billion potential targets I have now thank you ;)
 
This is an RPG, not Quake, so I for one like the 2 faction system. If goes with the story, but I am also all for middle ground.
FFA areas? Sure. Allow cross faction Raids and dungeons? Sure, makes sense. Allow teaming up with the opposite faction? Works in some areas, why not? Those ideas would help out the population issues this game has with factions without turning people off the game. Don’t want to team with the other faction? One more check box for the LFG interface.
 
The one big problem this game has now is population. The problem comes from issues with PvP and PvE endgame.
If they can make some improvements in those areas, which I’m confident they can if they actually want to (I do have my theory that Carbine have been paid to drop subs, for good or for the short term). They have realized some of their mistakes, too late for the most part unfortunately, but hopefully they have learned from them, and can recover.
 
I’d actually be into a game that was FFA, but I haven’t heard of any with any real penalties for ganking wantonly.
I don’t care if you could actually steal my loot, if I could track you down, have a chance to actually kill your character permanently, and loot the still warm corpse I’d be cool with that.	
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For myself and my friends, the real 'killer' of Wildstar is the lack on non-hardcore endgame content. Yes, 40 person raids are awesome, but it's a right pain in the ass to get ready for that, and many players are not interested in putting in a full work week of playing to earn the gear needed. I hit 50 with my Engineer, and started doing the attunement and the like, and just...stopped. Because the sheer amount of work needed to even prepare for raiding was nonsensicle.
 
My suggestion would be to have 'Attuned' for the hardcore raiders, where it unlocks the uber nasty events and gear, etc, and an 'UnAttuned' status for the casual players who just want to go beat up bosses and have a fun time playing with friends and family. Hell, you could even keep the same dungeons and change the bosses a bit, but give the mid-competative and casual competative something to do beside quit the game.
 
I had -so- much fun just playing the game to 50...learning the lore, enjoying the combat, doing crafting, etc. It's a great and fun game...but MAN, that endgame wall of hardcore raiding just sunk the game because there wasn't anything else to do in the game.
 
Keep the hardcore raiding! It's awesome, and people like it! But add some levels of non-hardcore for the rest of the population to enjoy the wilds of Nexus.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Wildstar is a pretty awesome game, unfortunately they have made some pretty major mistakes.
The bigger problem is that people have unrealistic expectations, and there is no reason for them to be forgiving with so many different games out there.
I think MMORPGs aren’t doing so well because of WoW alone. Well WoW and stupid game producers. WoW doesn’t need to improve much to keep making money, so it doesn’t. So it gets boring quick. But it still holds a lot of the market, which means other games can’t get a lot of pop, which can kill a game that has potential.
And it seems since WoW came out it seems not one game producer has realized that against WoW you can’t come out with a half done game and expect it to thrive in a year.
If EA weren’t total retards and kept funding SWTOR for a decent period of time I’m sure they wouldn’t have needed to go F2P and could have improved the game more.
 
Wildstar came out of the gate with a pretty solid game with lots of features. Unfortunately because they were also forced to go live early there were a lot of bugs, and some bad design decisions really turned off a lot of players.
 
Can they recover? That depends on if the producers will be smart and keep investing, and their game design decisions from here on.
 
I do think suggesting to go FFA doesn’t make much sense though. People knew the kind of PvP this game had when they joined, or should have, changing it to something totally different will be more likely lose more players than gain new ones. WoW has 2 factions, so there are about 12 million people who don’t mind that style of game. How much say the same for FFA? “limiting” your targets to half of the games population isn’t that much of a limit. It’s like saying being is Bi is best because everyone is a potential target. I don’t find any problem with the 2 or so billion potential targets I have now thank you ;)
 
This is an RPG, not Quake, so I for one like the 2 faction system. If goes with the story, but I am also all for middle ground.
FFA areas? Sure. Allow cross faction Raids and dungeons? Sure, makes sense. Allow teaming up with the opposite faction? Works in some areas, why not? Those ideas would help out the population issues this game has with factions without turning people off the game. Don’t want to team with the other faction? One more check box for the LFG interface.
 
The one big problem this game has now is population. The problem comes from issues with PvP and PvE endgame.
If they can make some improvements in those areas, which I’m confident they can if they actually want to (I do have my theory that Carbine have been paid to drop subs, for good or for the short term). They have realized some of their mistakes, too late for the most part unfortunately, but hopefully they have learned from them, and can recover.
 
I’d actually be into a game that was FFA, but I haven’t heard of any with any real penalties for ganking wantonly.
I don’t care if you could actually steal my loot, if I could track you down, have a chance to actually kill your character permanently, and loot the still warm corpse I’d be cool with that.
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If we allow cross faction everything whats the point of having factions in the first place...
If lore and war is the primary idea, then allowing crossfaction anything makes no sense at all.
 
And I want to correct you on something.
 
This isnt an RPG, its an MMORPG. It's got a very different expectation of mechanics and gameplay. Very different expectations and rules for players to play by.
 
The whole reason to introduce FFA and bring down the factions is because the factions themselves are restricting everything that should be open in a niche game and it's better at promoting open world PVP as people want.
 
Open world PVP is one thing an MMORPG can offer in PVP that no other game can really offer as well.
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/snip
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Two factions joining up to fight a stronger third makes perfect sense.
And I didn't say cross faction everything, but in some cases it makes sense. Adventures against the other faction, doesn't make sense, dungeons or raids against the Strain/Entity, makes sense.
 
An MMORPG is an RPG for a lot of people. It isn't really what it seems it would be, but that doesn't mean it should just throw out the whole RPG thing altogether.
If everyone wanted open world PvP it would exist and there would be no PvE servers. It seems that is only appealing to a niche group. Why go through a lot of effort to switch one niche group for another?
 
And the only thing an MMORPG does better for PvP is more opportunity to gank people and wait to actually do what you want (play PvP).
Every other FPS game out there does PvP better. So do the Mobas and Dotas out there apparently.
 
Factions have been shown to work. For the Horde! That is one of the most famous things about MMORPGs out there right now and that comes from a 2 faction game like good old Wildstar.
I know FFA has an appeal, but that doesn't mean every game should do it.
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I knew I should have changed that lien about everyone wanting open world PvP, but i liked it.
You obviously like OWPvP and I can understand why you'd want that here, and I can how ijcrease limited player interaction.
I just don't agree that OWPvP and removing factions will help this game for the amount of work involved to remove the faction barrier.
If they fix the end game and pvp issues they have now, and continue to release more content and improvements they could get more pop which will solve a lot of issues.
I do agree you can't beat wow at it's own game, but you don't have to make every single thing different. Peopel don't play WoW for the 2 factions, but they obviously don't mind it is all I'm saying.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I disagree with a level 35 trial as it gives too much of the game away. (basically all adventures except malgrave and all dungeons.)
Level 20 gets you...
 
1. PvP
2. Housing
3. 1st Shiphand
4. 1st Adventure
5. 1st Dungeon
 
If after they experience all that, they are still not interested in making a purchase, I doubt farside would
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What pvp bracket ? Do you realize that there are no queues at any time at low level content, right ? I mean, i was queued for 8 hours the other day, and not a single one could drop. That's why i am wondering if you guys really understand how the game is presented to a new player. Do you want to try PvP ? Nope. Do you want to try adventures ? Nop. Do you want to try dungeons ? Nop. 
 
Quests are fine and fun, the problem is that you don't see other players around, but once in a blue moon, it really feels lonely. 
 
@Fran  I prefer FFA, but that's something that's not gonna change. It is completely pointless to try to argue against or in favor of it. It brings absolutely nothing to the table worth mentioning.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I knew I should have changed that lien about everyone wanting open world PvP, but i liked it.
You obviously like OWPvP and I can understand why you'd want that here, and I can how ijcrease limited player interaction.
I just don't agree that OWPvP and removing factions will help this game for the amount of work involved to remove the faction barrier.
If they fix the end game and pvp issues they have now, and continue to release more content and improvements they could get more pop which will solve a lot of issues.
I do agree you can't beat wow at it's own game, but you don't have to make every single thing different. Peopel don't play WoW for the 2 factions, but they obviously don't mind it is all I'm saying.
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Sure Fran, you first need to invest money and time into developing it, and then you forget that you are alienating many people who are already your customers, and most of the western MMORPG playerbase. FFA servers aren't popular for the same reason PvE servers are more popular than PvP servers. If you harden up those PvP servers, people will flock towards PvE servers. 
 
Just stop already, it isn't even the problem with the game. The problem is that when you first land into the game, it is a lonely experience, but that's fine, it's the first levels. Then you get into lvl six. queue for pvp. Nothing pops. Ok, let's continue to lvl 15, queue for adventure. Nothing pops. I am lvl 33 and i haven't done a single adventure or pvp during my leveling. I won't mention lvl 50, because i am not experienced with it, but just reaching that level you are always wondering, is it worth ? Will the game be as dead when i hit lvl 50? You know it is better at lvl 50, but you don't know how much better. Drop 4 seems to be in the right direction in that regard, but still does nothing for how the game will be presented to a new player. I am enduring it, because i want to raid in the future, but not every player should be forced to raid or else. You want more players, start to fix it from the bottom.
 
There is nothing enigmatic about WoW or LoL. It just a matter of quality, diversified experience, accessibility plus timing. When WoW released we were used to clunky combat from MMORPGs because we felt it couldn't be other way. That we would only level by sitting our asses in one spot and repeatdly bash the same mobs until we dinged. 	
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Alright folks, if you want to turn this thread into a pvp discussion, please take it over to the pvp section of the forums. There's already plenty of conversations over there about this sort of stuff, and there's no need to have the arguments here in general. Please remember to be polite and constructive in your replies, the bickering isn't going to help anyone out. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Alright folks, if you want to turn this thread into a pvp discussion, please take it over to the pvp section of the forums. There's already plenty of conversations over there about this sort of stuff, and there's no need to have the arguments here in general. Please remember to be polite and constructive in your replies, the bickering isn't going to help anyone out. 
 
- Team WildStar
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People are only looking at Frans suggestion as a PvP suggestion, when infact it is also needed for PvE and server population sake.
 
Saying this isn't the problem with the game because you're unable to find queues for dungeons/battlegrounds is completely missing the point... The idea is to have Exiles and Dominion play together, against the strain or what have you, up to pappy with the lore... That will double your chances to get dungeon/bg queues and will significantly increase our recruitment pool for raiding... This is not just a PvP thing.	
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People are only looking at Frans suggestion as a PvP suggestion, when infact it is also needed for PvE and server population sake.
 
Saying this isn't the problem with the game because you're unable to find queues for dungeons/battlegrounds is completely missing the point... The idea is to have Exiles and Dominion play together, against the strain or what have you, up to pappy with the lore... That will double your chances to get dungeon/bg queues and will significantly increase our recruitment pool for raiding... This is not just a PvP thing.
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{| class="blockquote"
People are only looking at Frans suggestion as a PvP suggestion, when infact it is also needed for PvE and server population sake.
 
Saying this isn't the problem with the game because you're unable to find queues for dungeons/battlegrounds is completely missing the point... The idea is to have Exiles and Dominion play together, against the strain or what have you, up to pappy with the lore... That will double your chances to get dungeon/bg queues and will significantly increase our recruitment pool for raiding... This is not just a PvP thing.
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{| class="blockquote"
There is no debate needed on that. A bigger player pool would be better for queues, the problems with a FFA "fix" are:
 
- Time and resources invested into it wouldn't be invested into other features that current playerbase demands (if you take this thread as an example for player priorities).
- Taste. Some people enjoy the faction themed structure of the game, which has been pointed out already. It's hard to advocate that in a western market FFA is actually a thing. And yes, i do prefer it, but i am not in denial.
-  For PvE purposes, what you are advocating for is not very different from the server merges, and those had been proven to be just bandaids.
 
There are better ways to improve your population problems than just "patching" it over and over and over. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Well said. I think the two biggest steps this game needs to take to be attractive to more players are:
 
1) Get rid of the purchase portion of the game ($40 up front wtf). Make it subscription only. This lowers the barrier to entry and gives a lot of people a reason to try it out (lower cost) or come back (possibly more people playing).
 
2) Get rid of attunement. Flagging is the single biggest annoyance in the raiding world other than trying to assemble a raid team, and all it does is artificially lock out 90% of the player base who can't be bothered. This in turn leaves those people with nothing to do, so they leave. Just remove the flagging system and add more end-game content, especially dungeons and raids.
 
EDIT: Only difficulty should keep people out of raids. If they aren't geared enough, they need to run dungeon, or craft, or something until they can do it. "Attunement" is a meaningless barrier.
 
Believe it or not, casuals in WoW LOVE to run heroic dungeons all the time--even if they never intend to raid. It's a social experience. Wildstar's problem isn't with the game itself. It's that Carbine doesn't fully understand their target audience. Sure, they got the hardcore raiders and pvp crowd interested, but without the casuals, the game has no future. Every mmo relies on casuals for the raw numbers needed to support the game--from within and from without. I don't expect this game to have the success that WoW or the first EQ did, but without a healthy population, many of the game's biggest features will never see use--and that's on both the pve and pvp sides.
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{| class="blockquote"
They're not getting rid of the box price most likely, not unless it changes sub model.
 
As far as attunement removal, well that's fine with me as long as people are ready to deal with gear score discrimination. Either way, it'll happen eventually as they ease attunement with new raids.
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			Everquest is not dual faction and yet it has survived for 15 years. Granted it has gone f2p and the graphics are horribly outdated. Oh and Wildstar is in it's death throes.	
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Everquest is not dual faction and yet it has survived for 15 years. Granted it has gone f2p and the graphics are horribly outdated. Oh and Wildstar is in it's death throes.
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The thread is titled "wildstar is in a good position" not "wildstar should or shouldn't be FFA". By all means make your own thread
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LOL! where in the rules does it say you start a thread you own the thread? People that come back into a thread and say "hey you're not staying on topic go start your own thread" crack me up. My post has nothing to do with FFA and everything to do with dual factions and how they have ruined mmo gaming. Did you really think you were going to start a thread titled Wildstar Is In A Good Position and not get naysayers? Maybe you should have titled it "wildtar is in a good position...this thread is only for folks that want to blow sunshine and daisies up carbine's arse" then the naysayers might have stayed away.
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			It seems odd to get annoyed every time a subtopic comes up into the discussion. What was your expected reaction from other users when you made this thread, exactly?	
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LOL! where in the rules does it say you start a thread you own the thread? People that come back into a thread and say "hey you're not staying on topic go start your own thread" crack me up.
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{| class="blockquote"
The thread is titled "wildstar is in a good position" not "wildstar should or shouldn't be FFA". By all means make your own thread
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Yeah just gonna go ahead and throw this out there....
 
 
 
 
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Current state of the MMORPG genre is pretty bleak and there are currently no up and coming MMOs for at least another year or 2.
 
4 million people returned to WoW with Warlords of Draenor. Those people will get bored of WoW very quickly as most have already beaten the end game thanks to the faceroll easy raid finder. Soon they'll be looking for another game to play but where will they go?
 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't really think LFR counts as beating end game do you? seriously?
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Wildstar came out of the gate with a pretty solid game with lots of features. Unfortunately because they were also forced to go live early there were a lot of bugs, and some bad design decisions really turned off a lot of players.
 
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So one guild out of how many on your server is nearing the end of the first raid nearly a month and a half after the expansion was released. There are several 7/7 guilds. I would bet that the top raiding guilds on most servers have the following in common:
 
1 - Been around for a long time and are used to playing each other
2 - Highly competitive and have a serious competition to get to world/server firsts
3 - Have enough altaholics that they can optimize the intiial mythic runs with effectively ideal raid teams (even not playing mains), it coming clears I am sure their groups will look vastly different as some of them get to gear out their mains
 
If you don't think if the number of guilds raiding in WOW including the world first guilds were playing wildstar DS wouldn't be completed by now you are kidding yourself.
 
Also working in WOWs factor for raid progression is the raiders in there had to deal with less bugs and less broken mechanics changing from week to week. Less latency and FPS issues in raids too. More understandable stat mechanics... see the cap on hit in raid forum.
 
On a side note the next raid is not too far away and there is a third raid that will probably come out before the 3rd raid in Wildstar I would hazard a guess.	
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11 guilds on just one server. (Now 16 since I posted that.)
 
Close to getting full content clears.
 
Just over a month after release.
 
Including Christmas break.
 
Your incredibly astute summary of the life of a top raiding guild aside, my point was that WoW has been watered down a bit in the past few years.	
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			I know everyone here is debating certain aspects of other MMOs and wildstar's aspects that either prevent it from recovering or will help it recover and blossom but something I have yet to see someone bring up in this thread that I have seen other people bring up in other threads is for Carbine to really keep its current player base 'satisfied.' By that I mean...remember that whole gold exploit fiasco? We all know someone who totally lost their s*** because of this. In this day and age where so many "reviewers" are paid to give positive reviews I would argue that word of mouth is a lot more influential. I went from praising wildstar to describing it as being in an abusive relationship, where you come back just to be disappointed by something else. I have since just gone from even describing it to just saying, "yeah it's cool." When wildstar does start advertising once more and they implement the free trial system, who do you think people are going to ask right before they even bother downloading the client what their opinion is on the game? One of us who still play...and I really hope we don't get anymore fiascos anytime soon.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I know everyone here is debating certain aspects of other MMOs and wildstar's aspects that either prevent it from recovering or will help it recover and blossom but something I have yet to see someone bring up in this thread that I have seen other people bring up in other threads is for Carbine to really keep its current player base 'satisfied.' By that I mean...remember that whole gold exploit fiasco? We all know someone who totally lost their s*** because of this. In this day and age where so many "reviewers" are paid to give positive reviews I would argue that word of mouth is a lot more influential. I went from praising wildstar to describing it as being in an abusive relationship, where you come back just to be disappointed by something else. I have since just gone from even describing it to just saying, "yeah it's cool." When wildstar does start advertising once more and they implement the free trial system, who do you think people are going to ask right before they even bother downloading the client what their opinion is on the game? One of us who still play...and I really hope we don't get anymore fiascos anytime soon.
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{| class="blockquote"
From what I gathered, most people already forgot about that. People care about current issues, like balancing, attunement, raids, queues or PvP.
 
The gold exploit is already dead and buried. And I'm atually surprised that someone is still upset about that, from the forums I gathered that most were willing to look and see if things clear out later on. Since then there I saw no complaints about this.
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{| class="blockquote"
From what I gathered, most people already forgot about that. People care about current issues, like balancing, attunement, raids, queues or PvP.
 
The gold exploit is already dead and buried. And I'm atually surprised that someone is still upset about that, from the forums I gathered that most were willing to look and see if things clear out later on. Since then there I saw no complaints about this.
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{| class="blockquote"
I would argue it is a current issue as it has reflected how Carbine deals with these "fiascos." Some of us are okay with it, some of us aren't. I for one know a handful of people who have since that episode, have stopped logging in as frequently, I would be one of those people. When these people (the ones whom I know of) are asked why they don't play Wildstar as much anymore, you know what they say now? "Wildstar is just kinda dead right now..." Word of mouth...
 
Also to counter your "dead and buried" argument, take a look at the "The economics of exploitation and you" thread, it recently got locked up this month, is that really your definition of "dead and buried?" If I start a thread regarding this issue...do you really think it'll stay empty? Oh trust me there's enough rage floating about to get that thread locked up the same day.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's been a month since the thread was closed. The thread itself ran for about a month and had only 7 pages.
 
If your thread gets closed after a month, I wouldn't say making the thread was absolutely worthless. Also, it may be worth a try just to show that some people still care about this. 
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{| class="blockquote"
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/118684-the-economics-of-exploitation-and-you/page-7
 
Last post was on December 16, 2014. Today's date December 28, 2014. Has not been a month....not even 2 weeks yet....
 
If you look at the original thread before they moved it over and tried to address the economics of the game rather than other effects that fiasco had https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/118297-reported-gold-exploit/
that one is much longer
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{| class="blockquote"
Ok, I can't even read dates apparently.  :D
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