120916-welp-thought-id-like-it-page-4

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm glad you are sticking around, especially if you've found people to play with- it really can be a great game :)
 
 
So here's the thing- you really don't need to voice coms or pre-made group to do the leveling dungeons. What you *do* need is understanding about things like interrupts and the mechanics of the boss fights. If you have one random player in your group who has experience and is willing to share it, you should have no problem getting through the dungeon.
 
If you are Exile in NA, I would be willing to queue up with you on my tank and give you a clean run through STL 20 explaining all the fights.
 
And you have tons of sympathy from me over how long the queues take to pop. It should not be this way and I hope Carbine's effort to fix this will be successful.
 
BTW, what DID you mean about not being able to do the level 20 dungeon at 30?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On a side note, I do feel like Bladewind the Invoker is the biggest shock to the system in the game. He really isn't that hard, but boy I did not expect anything like a three phase fight with room wide AoE when I entered my first dungeon. Once I got used to the idea that the bosses were going to have multiple mechanics and be interesting, I felt like a kid in a candy store as we encountered each new boss. But that first encounter was a doozie :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Dude, the OP has posted several times in this thread and I have read them all. He said the problem was that normal mode STL was too hard, too frustrating, and it was nothing short of miraculous if a queue popped at all for it, and that he "wasn't allowed" to do the dungeon at level 30. Since he is in fact allowed to enter the dungeon even as a level 30 character, I would guess that he means that even at level 30 he still couldn't complete it, although it's not clear and I wouldn't want to have to bet money on being right.
 
Of course, we probably won't ever know. Nobody asked him to clarify. Of the three people responding to him that dungeons are supposed to be hard, only Sly even noticed that he said something about not being allowed to do the dungeon before moving on to "perhaps you should just stick to adventures".
 
He said that hardcore guilds had way too much influence over the content relative to casuals, and when people jumped all over him for even implying that casuals couldn't be hardcore, he tried to backtrack and change that to "hardcore 40-player guilds" relative to "solos". And now you're jumping all over him for the use of the number 40 because zomg they're removing 40 man raids how dare he not know that. 
 
Strangely, you're complaining about it even though the guilds that he refers to that play the 40-man raids will still exist when the 40-man raids themselves are gone. Even more strangely, you're offended by the idea that he should think these guilds have too much influence even though earlier this very week you were insisting that they're the ones who asked for the 40 man raids to be removed--IIRC, because they didn't want to have to have 2 sets of raid gear--and then the 40-man raids were removed. And then you're offended at the idea that anyone should claim they have a lot of influence over the game.  :lol: 
 
And then he noted, correctly, that the game is a ghost town and that perhaps a reason why there's so much enthusiastic support for things being so hard during the leveling process is that everyone who didn't like that already left and can't post here anymore. And he's got a fair point there, doesn't he.
 
And by the way, although I share an interest in challenging content, I also agree with his point that the leveling part of the game is the training. I'm glad you guys had so much fun with the level 20 dungeon during the time it takes for the hardcore to blast their way up to 50--what's it down to these days, [sarcasm]20 minutes? 25?[/sarcasm], but here's the thing. When you say that content is a complete ball of suck in pugs and isn't even intended to BE puggable, apparently someone forgot to tell the developers that because there's a whole section of the group finder for doing exactly that. So you're pissing at him for doing it in a way that according to you is against the content design, but at the same time is the obvious method that's going to be chosen by everyone who hasn't found a guild by level 20. Is there any place the game tells them that what they're trying to do is simply not what they're supposed to do? I must've missed it.
 
By the way, it's pretty amazing to hear you talk about how little hardcore raiders care about level 20 dungeons in the exact same thread where you climbed down this guy's throat for having the gall to suggest that hardcore raiders have had too much influence over level 20 dungeons because you loved that dungeon and how dare he. You do care. Obviously.
 
Which brings us to rewards, and both you and Sly unloaded on me for even bringing it up, so I'd like to explain my thinking. You're right that he didn't mention them. What he did say was that he found it frustratingly hard and getting a queue to pop at all was nothing short of a miracle. In other words, people aren't running this content much and at least some of those who do find it to be really unentertaining. Right or wrong, the way that MMORPGs get people to take the time to do things that they're finding frustrating is by rewarding them enough to make the effort worthwhile. That's the whole concept underlying difficulty/reward, right? That increased difficulty is incentivized by increased reward? For the obvious reason that people are much more accepting of challenge and find it much less frustrating if they're getting rewarded along the way enough to make pushing harder seem worthwhile. If you got into GA and your raid group took down Genetic Monstrosity and all that dropped was a bunch of [Pearl Necklaces] for half of the group, somehow I doubt everyone would show up for the next miniboss.
 
How far into STL did the OP get? Where did he get held up? He didn't say, and nobody else seemed to care, and then he was gone.
 
So have I recaptured enough context to have some street cred? Or no?
 
As for that stream of conciousness you followed up with, I think all that really needs saying in response to that is this:
 
If you think collecting dyes is such a swell form of endgame progression, YOU go collect dyes for your endgame. But if you're raiding and collecting the best gear in the game while you do it, you've got a hell of a lot of nerve telling ME to be fine with collecting dyes. 
----
			
MMOs are not ment to be single player they exist so you can make friends and get to know people, and this game is even more intimate than that..... if you have a consistent healer for any length of time they will start to be able to predict which way your going to go before you even know yourself.
 
If you want to play a single player game go buy a console you'll be happier. If you want to succeed in this MMO get a mic and interact with people inside the game.	
----
			
Does it require voice comms?  no
Does it require communication?  yes
 
Scullcano, 1st boss.  All it took was a simple, "I have 2 IA, I can go first if someone else throws one with me", next person "I'll do 1 with you on first", next person, "I have 3 IA, I'll go 2nd", next person "rest of us go on 3rd".  boom, coordination achieved, boss dead, smooth run.
 
All done with the chat box, and it took maybe 20 seconds.  I will grant you, that even that little amount of communication is rare in MMORPGs nowadays, but it isn't beyond the realm of reason.  Heck, I stopped a vote kick on a person who said they were new to a dungeon because I said "new doesn't mean bad.  he deserves a chance". (it failed 3-1)  lo and behold, he was legit, and we had a smooth run.
 
I'm glad you found a guild, it always makes the experience better when trying to learn the ropes.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
MMOs are not ment to be single player they exist so you can make friends and get to know people, and this game is even more intimate than that..... if you have a consistent healer for any length of time they will start to be able to predict which way your going to go before you even know yourself.
 
If you want to play a single player game go buy a console you'll be happier. If you want to succeed in this MMO get a mic and interact with people inside the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks to who offered to help me, I'm actually on Entity and Dominion, I will try Dungeons once again on the weekend when I have way more time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I did not say MMO's are meant to be single player(which in fact it can be, thats up to any player to play alone or not) but not everyone joins a game WITH a guild, there are tons of people that join alone and have to find one.
Thanks to who offered to help me, I'm actually on Entity and Dominion, I will try Dungeons once again on the weekend when I have way more time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not sure why you're missing the point, it may be intentional, but I'll continue to try to get you up to speed.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, I got the point just fine. It turns out I can see your point, understand what you mean, and still not agree with you.
 
And by the way, I still don't agree with you. About most of what you've said, although you spewed out so much of it in a huge ball that I'm not wasting either of our time trying to sift through it all and respond to it. Which, for all I know, was the point of spewing it all out like that in the first place. Certainly you didn't bother to keep your focus on what I was saying or actually restrict yourself to using my words or even concepts that I generally agree with, so actually showing you the courtesy of a point-by-point response isn't really called for here.
 
But I will note a few things, in an effort to give you just enough to actually respond to me with anything less than a treatise.
 
1. Glad to see that we both agree that the game's hardcore raiders did in fact exert their influence to get the game's developers to change the raid content. Delighted, in fact. I quite agree with you that the game's hardcore raiders should exert strong control over the game's hardcore raiding content. Looking forward to the game's solo players in fact getting a similar degree of influence with the game's developers to change the solo content to make it what they want it to be. Because I know we'd all hate to think that the entire game caters to hardcore raiders, even on the stuff outside of hardcore raids.
 
2. There is, in fact, a substantial body of evidence that many people who bought the game have found it to be more difficult and frustrating than they enjoy. Just not compiled into this thread, for a reason that the OP very insightfully and accurately noted when you told HIM how unpopular his view was: that people who have left the game aren't here to post in this thread, making a head count in this thread a very poor method of evaluating those opinions. If you are really interested in whether or not they outnumber the people who have supported the current level of difficulty in this thread, you are always welcome to count them up. I don't think it's likely enough to change your opinion to be worth taking the time to do it myself, no matter what the numbers are.
 
3. Evidence is quite important, however, which is why I'm going to take the time to explicitly reply to those. It turns out that evaluating evidence is not your strong point.
There have been no metrics released to my knowledge that allow us to know how many people who ran dungeons subsequently left because they thought the game in general or the dungeons in particular was too hard. All that TT's metrics tell us is that more people who didn't run dungeons left than those who did. It tells us nothing about how many thought they were overtuned, because not everyone who thought them overtuned is guaranteed to leave and not everyone who left did so because the dungeons were overtuned. Frankly, given that the dungeons have been extensively farmed for modules, I don't see any way at all in which we could assess whether people run dungeons because they particularly LIKE dungeons or not without asking them. If they've ever done that in a way that isn't profoundly skewed, I haven't seen it.
 
 
 
Oh look! I found some evidence for you that someone found the level 20 dungeon frustrating. Wow, should I point out how ironic your comment was following a lengthy statement about how I just ignore opinions I don't agree with? Because I thought that was pretty ironic.
 
OK. First off, more irony, outlined in orange for comparison to the quote below:
 
 
As for the lone piece of evidence that we have from the metrics, I've already explained why I think it simply isn't relevant whatsoever to the question of whether people who did dungeons thought they were too hard or not. The fact that people who enter dungeons are less likely to quit than people who don't tells us absolutely nothing about whether people become less likely to quit because they set foot in a dungeon, and this is exactly the kind of sloppy thinking that demonstrates the importance of critical thinking skills in data analysis and metrics.
 
Setting foot in a dungeon something you do because the game actually directly and actively sends you into dungeons. The people who don't go in either don't like dungeons in the first place or are so clueless they couldn't find a dungeon even if the game points them to one.
 
I bet that people who entered Whitevale are likelier to have stayed in the game than people who didn't. Does that mean Whitevale makes people stay? No, it means that if you're playing the game and not either 1) actively trying to avoid Whitevale or 2) not a complete IDIOT, you ended up there.
 
But I tell you what, let's accept the premise that somehow we could get whatever information we wanted that let us do a matchup: "What fraction of people thought the leveling dungeons were tuned well VS. What fraction of people thought the dungeons sucked so badly that they left the game over it?" If the answer was 51%-49%, would you really throw up your arms and proclaim victory?
 
The real question is "Is the way that this game currently tunes the normal-mode dungeons so difficult that it's COSTING THE GAME PLAYERS relative to tuning the normal-mode dungeons to something less difficult?" THAT is the question that Carbine ought to care about, whether YOU care about it or not. So let's ask the right question to help us get at that.
 
How many of you would quit the game if they were tuned down? Not the Vet Dungeons just the normal ones. How many of you would be so upset by changes to the pre-50 leveling content that it would make you stop playing the game entirely? Anybody? If that's a dealbreaker for you, don't be shy, this is your chance to save that part of the game that you care about so much that you'd just quit over it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, let's start from the top.
 
Solo players have gotten input on a lot of the solo experience, there's just a lot of solo experience out there (as has been stated).  You may sneer at it and say, "Soloers don't get what they want," but they certainly have gotten quite a bit they've asked for if we're counting all retuning as influence.  Drop 3's bug fixes were centered almost entirely around solo issues.  Omnicore-1 is built specifically to be soloed, which means solo players actually have an additional instance that raiders haven't even gotten.  Veteran shiphands are being introduced as entirely new content that can be soloed.  All the crafting changes, all the leveling zone changes, all the path changes, all the housing changes, if we tabulate every single change ever made on behalf of people who play alone, we would vastly outnumber anything ever done on behalf of raiders.  The only thing done with DS20 is to remove a 40 man raid and replace it with a 20.  Raiders have essentially received no new content, solo players have received almost the entirety of post-drop content.  I'm not sure why you think solo players haven't received anything (they have, in huge volumes) or why you would target hardcore raiders because the development team listened to them, but it seems pretty strange.  Solo players have gotten far more content, far more bug fixes, far more tuning than just the raids.  That seems entirely unfair that you think raiders shouldn't even have any say.  There's solo content out there being continually updated and fixed, whether you turn your nose up at it or not.
 
In fact, there is a lot of evidence out there to contradict you.  I myself have been here to see a lot of people who have shown up to record their grievances, many of whom praised the difficulty but felt the game was too grindy at endgame.  You may not have been here to see it all, when people were complaining about dungeon loot in their quitting posts.  Even without counting that, TT did not say that he consulted only people who left and checked the forums, his evidence is taken directly from the game data itself.  That completely bypasses your suggestion that we're basing this off of evidence that can't be accounted for, Carbine looked specifically into the accounts who had left, saw how many had entered a dungeon, and found that most had not.  At that point, if you're saying that the game is so difficult it is driving people out, you're talking about people who didn't even do dungeons.  If your assertion is that no content should ever be more difficult than the things players encountered before even entering a dungeon because all content should live down to the lowest possible common denominator, I have absolutely no issue finding that deplorable and unacceptable.  I started playing this game because it was challenging at an entertaining level, I do not think Skullcano should be no harder than leveling in Galeras.  Given that there is evidence supporting the idea that you're absolutely wrong that is not anecdotal, and none that does besides what you suppose people left for, yes, I feel perfectly fine saying you are directly contradicted by the evidence at hand.  You can't sweep it under the rug because you can't twist it into something it isn't.
 
So the statistical data that says people who ran dungeons were more likely to stay (which directly contradicts your position that running dungeons make people more likely to leave due to overtuned dungeons), suddenly doesn't count, but you'd like to take the OP (who even now is proving you wrong by giving the game another shot now that people are telling him he may not have to have the entire game downtuned to succeed) to mean that the dungeons are so overtuned that people would leave.  You now, officially, have been overturned by your own evidence without escaping TT's post.  If, by your logic, the dungeons are so hard that more people who do them are apt to leave, his information would be inaccurate.  People who even run a dungeon are more likely to stay.  Again, that directly contradicts your idea that people leave without saying goodbye after failing at dungeons, your idea that they drive people out of the game, or that (later in the post) people are not retained by the difficulty. All three are proven to have statistical contradiction in the game data itself, that people who do run a dungeon are more likely to stay.  Just because you want it to be irrelevant doesn't mean it is, you can't wish that the metrics that prove you wrong go away.  People who run a dungeon stay more likely, they are not more likely to leave as you posit.  Period.  Obviously, people who step foot in a dungeon are across the board less likely to quit for the rest of time.  That is sloppy thinking, if they were less likely to quit because they set foot in a dungeon, as you surmise, that would mean people who run a dungeon would be more likely to quit.  The evidence is directly contradicting that as well.
 
You might be amazed to find this, but there are people who don't run dungeons ever and just clear the quest from their log.  They hear random players on the forums saying, "No, this game is too hard, someone like you isn't capable of doing it until they make it easier for you."  There are people who log in and don't like the art style.  They don't like action combat at all.  They may quit at level 6 because they don't like leveling and want to just play a FPS.  People can get to 50 never running an instance because they just sneer at instances and quit because they run out of pure un-instanced content.  They can leave because they don't like the people they talk to in /z or they can leave because the game never grabs them.  They can leave because they came specifically for PVP and PVP queues don't happen especially at low levels.  They can leave because it isn't WoW, FFXIV:ARR, Rift, or whatever they're used to.  They could die over and over against shoveltusks.  They could fail at platforming or they could leave because their friend started it, hated it for any of the above reasons, and left.  People can leave for all sorts of reasons that have very little to do with Carbine, or things even the majority of the playerbase would retain.  Lots of people are afraid because the difficulty gets hyped to absurd levels, don't want to even group with more than just their one friend that plays with them, or sometimes they just want to play housing and they piddle out.  Not everyone runs dungeons, even at level 20, and the information from TT states if they do, they're more likely to stay.  As incredible as it must seem to you, it isn't just complete idiots who avoid or never reach dungeons.  People may never walk into them, either they quit before they get the quest or they may just ignore it when they get it because it's just a task.  That's why it's different from Whitevale, per your example.  Very few people leveled entirely through STL and missed Whitevale, to avoid STL, you just never hit the button to queue.
 
I hardly feel that there's a significant number of people who left the game because of dungeon difficulty (hardly the hyperbolic 51%-49% you're bringing up).  I can say this, though, if the game wasn't as difficult as it was, it would be worse than quitting.  I simply wouldn't be here.  If Wildstar didn't have something that set it apart from carbon-copy running WoW, I'd have never cancelled my WoD subscription.  The love of housing, the guild, the customization, that all came later.  What got me hooked on this game in beta was my first run of STL.  That is why I decided to buy in, why I thought it was so good I stopped playing any other MMORPG.  Wildstar wouldn't even have seen me if it was no harder than FFXIV:ARR, not because Wildstar isn't better, but because it wouldn't have been different enough to the first-time observer to be of any note.
 
And if they detuned the dungeons, maybe I wouldn't leave right away.  I may, because that would seriously hurt a lot of the fun I have with my guild on alts, but just that one tier?  Maybe that's not everyone, plenty of people may never walk into a normal dungeon again.  But are you under the impression you can make and accept this argument for normal dungeons, but not veteran dungeons?  You think all the normal dungeons should be so easy that someone who couldn't even complete a normal right now should just be able to slide through it on their face, then they'd hit veteran content and this issue wouldn't recur?  That can't happen in a vacuum.  Forget how many people are actually stopped in their tracks solely by a normal dungeon, NONE of them could do a veteran dungeon.  The difficulty will have to be slid back on veteran, and to a position where everyone we made sure could easily walk through the normals could get to veterans.  If you are going to hit a content wall of difficulty you tell yourself you can't surmount, you will hit it somewhere.  If you're positing that all content should never be hard enough to cause anyone to ever possibly get frustrated, believe me, you're going to lose a LOT of players, because Wildstar isn't going to win that punch-out with a behemoth like Blizzard.  Normal dungeons are not too hard; anyone with decent instruction can learn to do them.  If the goal is to make sure that you can clear them without anyone ever being challenged, you're not talking about detuning a few mechanics.  You're talking about letting people eat Stormtalon's lightning strikes so they can just cycle through DPS, so that people don't ever have to learn to do a dash-roll out of the way.  Because if you can do a dash roll, not hit an interrupt until a specific time, and avoid red spots, you can beat Stormtalon.  I think that, as required skills for a level 20 dungeon, those should be bare-minimum for group activity.
 
There is no divorcing it.  If they detuned the normal dungeons, vets would have to come down for the exact same reason, because you can't make the argument that they're different.  They're just another tier of difficulty, and if a tier of difficulty should never be a barrier for anyone regardless of what they actually do in the instance, then a vet dungeons shouldn't be either.  I think that, yes, you should be able to fail in a dungeon.  I think that if you can't learn to defeat the bosses in STL and KV, you need to learn something long before you hit 50.  If you don't even have the inclination to ask and figure out why you're dying, I don't think the game should accommodate you by making it impossible to die.  And yes, if this became WoW, I'd go back to EVE.  After having this degree of respect from the developers, I don't want to have to fight my way back to mythic raiding in WoW just to get to something that might be equivalent to some of the things I do at 50.  I like my housing, my RP, my customization, but I am here, specifically, because the game is trying to kill me.  I'm not alone.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Correct, but seemingly off topic.  Unless you are saying that failing a dungeon leads to a lost sub.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sweet mother of TL;DRs.  :lol:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Failing to get through Veteran STL in guild runs 3 nights in a row of 2-3 hours each is what made me give up on the game.
 
For me, getting through an encounter was a relief, not an accomplishment
 
My accounts basically been in maintenance mode since then living off house node income. I log in a couple times a week to sell crap, and that's it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Failing to get through Veteran STL in guild runs 3 nights in a row of 2-3 hours each is what made me give up on the game.
 
For me, getting through an encounter was a relief, not an accomplishment
 
My accounts basically been in maintenance mode since then living off house node income. I log in a couple times a week to sell crap, and that's it.
----
			
Well, points for speed reading. Man, you were so on top of it that you had me quoted and were off writing your response before I'd had time to post it, read it myself, and add one single phrase to it.
 
That's talent! Nice to know you're thinking over what I have to say so carefully before you post your response.  :lol:
{| class="blockquote"
 That completely bypasses your suggestion that we're basing this off of evidence that can't be accounted for, Carbine looked specifically into the accounts who had left, saw how many had entered a dungeon, and found that most had not. 
----
			
Thanks ZuberiGF and Kipit for the questions. This was back in July, but I'll answer what I can remember.
 
I skipped all instances while leveling. The common consensus was that they were absolute nightmares to try to pug, and the reward was not remotely worth the effort.
 
I'd only been with the guild a few weeks, but they were a years old, multi-game guild with lots prior raiding experience. I'd run dozens of adventures with them though getting through the rep and silver attunement steps.
 
I was playing my SpellSlinger, and I don't think my gear was either great or terrible:
http://i.imgur.com/ajLjfmN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/REFJqlb.jpg
 
From what I remember, one or two of the other DPS had cleared STL, but no one in my groups had silvered it. I'd watched videos of clears, and I believe strategies were well explained and understood.
 
After about a week worth of "raid nights" (3 nights of 2-3 hours) working on getting people silvered in dungeons, the guild started having massive attrition problems as the people who did have silvers bailed as they realized the majority of the guild was struggling. The officers decided to transfer servers to merge with an old allied guild, but I was too frustrated to want to blow money on a transfer so I left.
 
I never did clear Veteran STL, and I have less than zero desire at all to try again.
 
I did go and do it once on my 50 Stalker, just to see.
 
So, I guess I'm the exception to TT's claim. Dungeon content is primarily what turned me off the game.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So, I guess I'm the exception to TT's claim. Dungeon content is primarily what turned me off the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks ZuberiGF and Kipit for the questions. This was back in July, but I'll answer what I can remember.
 
I skipped all instances while leveling. The common consensus was that they were absolute nightmares to try to pug, and the reward was not remotely worth the effort.
 
I'd only been with the guild a few weeks, but they were a years old, multi-game guild with lots prior raiding experience. I'd run dozens of adventures with them though getting through the rep and silver attunement steps.
 
I was playing my SpellSlinger, and I don't think my gear was either great or terrible:
http://i.imgur.com/ajLjfmN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/REFJqlb.jpg
 
From what I remember, one or two of the other DPS had cleared STL, but no one in my groups had silvered it. I'd watched videos of clears, and I believe strategies were well explained and understood.
 
After about a week worth of "raid nights" (3 nights of 2-3 hours) working on getting people silvered in dungeons, the guild started having massive attrition problems as the people who did have silvers bailed as they realized the majority of the guild was struggling. The officers decided to transfer servers to merge with an old allied guild, but I was too frustrated to want to blow money on a transfer so I left.
 
I never did clear Veteran STL, and I have less than zero desire at all to try again.
 
I did go and do it once on my 50 Stalker, just to see.
 
So, I guess I'm the exception to TT's claim. Dungeon content is primarily what turned me off the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks ZuberiGF and Kipit for the questions. This was back in July, but I'll answer what I can remember.
 
I skipped all instances while leveling. The common consensus was that they were absolute nightmares to try to pug, and the reward was not remotely worth the effort.
 
I'd only been with the guild a few weeks, but they were a years old, multi-game guild with lots prior raiding experience. I'd run dozens of adventures with them though getting through the rep and silver attunement steps.
 
I was playing my SpellSlinger, and I don't think my gear was either great or terrible:
http://i.imgur.com/ajLjfmN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/REFJqlb.jpg
 
From what I remember, one or two of the other DPS had cleared STL, but no one in my groups had silvered it. I'd watched videos of clears, and I believe strategies were well explained and understood.
 
After about a week worth of "raid nights" (3 nights of 2-3 hours) working on getting people silvered in dungeons, the guild started having massive attrition problems as the people who did have silvers bailed as they realized the majority of the guild was struggling. The officers decided to transfer servers to merge with an old allied guild, but I was too frustrated to want to blow money on a transfer so I left.
 
I never did clear Veteran STL, and I have less than zero desire at all to try again.
 
I did go and do it once on my 50 Stalker, just to see.
 
So, I guess I'm the exception to TT's claim. Dungeon content is primarily what turned me off the game.
----
			
Thanks for the support and offers, but I'm just done, I'm really only still around because it's almost zero effort, hanging on to the long shot hope that there could be a drastic change in philosophy at Carbine.
 
Truly honestly, my dungeon experience was not enjoyable at all. It was miserable. It was a relief when "raid time" was over so I could log out.
 
Additionally, there's zero chance I'm going get into raiding. I've decided that having to play a game by appointment is not something I'm interested in anymore.
 
So, I didn't like WS dungeons, I'm not going to raid, I loathe grinding reputation dailies. WS really just doesn't have anything to offer me.
 
The ironic thing, to misuse the word, is I'm precisely their target audience. I had ~80 days played back in Vanilla WoW clearing MC, BWL and partially through AQ40 before I burned out and had to take a break.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Well, points for speed reading. Man, you were so on top of it that you had me quoted and were off writing your response before I'd had time to post it, read it myself, and add one single phrase to it.
 
That's talent! Nice to know you're thinking over what I have to say so carefully before you post your response.  :lol:
Afraid not. This is why you may want to think over what I have to say before you post your response. They divided the playerbase into two groups: those who "did any" dungeons, and those who did not. By the way, we're all assuming that the phrase "did any" dungeon means they entered the instance, but maybe it means "successfully completed" a dungeon.
 
Maybe Timetravel will weigh in so that we know what that phrase is really referring to. But maybe not.
 
Anyway. Those who "did any" dungeon, and those who didn't. They then calculated the percentage of players in each group who had left. And they found that a significantly larger fraction of the players who left were those who didn't "do any" dungeon compared to those who did. By the way, the phrase "significant" can mean "big enough to make a difference", but conventionally in quantitative analysis it means "resolvable at a 95% confidence level". With a datapool containing tens or hundreds of thousands of datapoints, statistical significance can be achieved with very small differences because more samples means more resolving power. 
 
Maybe Timetravel will weigh in so that we know what that phrase is really referring to. But maybe not.
 
But let's assume that he meant what most people talking about number crunching would be talking about, statistical significance, and let's assume that with a dataset that large, the margin of error is just a percentage point or two, tops. I can calculate what it would be for you exactly if you'd like. Just let me know what game population size I should assume he used. 
 
So here's a homework exercise for you in critical thinking. Completely hypothetical numbers, of course, but I'll be interested to see if you can come up with the right answer. Consider it a "are you smart enough to know better than all that stuff you tossed out" test.
 
Imagine you have a game has 200,500 players and 500 of them don't ever do any dungeon. 495 of those players who didn't do any dungeon leave the game. Of the remaining 200,000 players, 180,000 of them leave the game.
Could Timetravel accurately say that players who did any dungeon were more likely to stick around than players who didn't? 
 
I love metrics. They're so useful and informative when they're designed well, and so meaningless but important-looking when they aren't. They're a real challenge.
 
And I like challenges.
 
Oh, one more thing, since last time I asked how many people would quit over the difficulty level of normal-mode dungeons if they were retuned and your answer was quite the opposite of a simple "I would" or "I wouldn't", this:
 
is simply irrelevant, since I did not suggest retuning the difficulty of the entire game--much less going back in time and retuning it in beta. I also did not suggest changes to the endgame dungeons where most people will be spending most of their time--in fact, I explicitly noted that I would not support changing them. This:
 
is simply false, because I can note that player expectations during leveling and during endgame are quite different in many ways, not least of which is challenge. And this:
 
 
is where you don't answer that very simple yes or no question with a yes or a no but a very decisive "probably not... BUT MAYBE I WOULD".
 
You failed to thoroughly answer me in a conversation. Thorough is not based on word count.  Your post was unfocused, contained some key factual errors that flat out eviscerate the main point of your post, and tried to change topic a lot.
 
As for the bit at the end, all of us can agree that difficulty is one of the game's selling points without necessarily agreeing that it needs to be as difficult as it is. So it's not quite as functional as you think, unless the argument you're fighting against is the straw-man of "you can't nerf any of it without nerfing all of it". Which, by the way, is not the argument you're fighting against. As someone mentioned recently, it's important to keep things in context.
 
----
			
What a huge discussion, sometimes looks like a duel between two persons :-)
 
But besides the question, if dungeon fails are the cause for game quitting, whats the cause for those getting frustrated in it.
As a new player, I have less experience with dungeons, concret 2 !
 
The first run in STL was successfull and relatively easy.
The second one KV was a horror, we failed several times at first entry boss, finally gave up.
 
In both cases, we ran with most people of a guild, some experienced level 50, and 2 lower levels.
 
One great difference was, that in the failing run, we had a random medic heal. As I understood from the TS talks,
that was the major problem. He was not able to heal, esp. the tank. At that point, there was not the problem of
getting guided to the boss mechanics themselves. The boss, as I could see, did nothing special, except deals
tons of damage without getting harmed that much. I cannot realy understand, why both runs where that completely different.
 
If I hadn't the positive experience with the first lucky run, I would have been seriously shocked about the difficulty of the dungeons.
 
I remember our development with GW2 dungeons. When we first ran the low level dungeons, we failed very often or successed only after long timed run with many wipes. Sometimes this was frustrating, too. At the end, we ran those dungeons during sleep.
But one big difference: besides the experience we won during playing: at the end, all were fully equiped. That made it easy.
 
So, the major question is: can a low level dungeon be masterd with players at low level experience and gear ?
What would happen, if you take experienced players with low level twinks ?
Do those people telling that dungeons are not difficult, only have their point of view from a level 50 equiped player ?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're welcome.  I can't be there when a quote comes in all the time, but sometimes you get lucky.  I just do this around my day job and play time.
----
			Is this a library? Cause some of the posts here are longer then the books I have on my shelves....	
----