147841-noticing-less-and-less-people-page-2

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
I get what you're saying about rude people, but you are offbase about Lemur encouraging people to be silent.  He's not telling the OP to stop making threads, he's telling him to stop making threads with titles like this.  There's a big difference there.  You may take the time to click the thread and read through it, but others won't, they'll just keep seeing these thread titles basically saying the game is dying, losing players, and they won't go any further than that.  
 
And really, what do you expect the responses to be to something like this?  I'd say they've been fairly tame, all things considered, and the OP's supporters are being just as rude.  So why only pick on the supporters of the game for being the toxicity here?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I get what you're saying about rude people, but you are offbase about Lemur encouraging people to be silent.  He's not telling the OP to stop making threads, he's telling him to stop making threads with titles like this.  There's a big difference there.  You may take the time to click the thread and read through it, but others won't, they'll just keep seeing these thread titles basically saying the game is dying, losing players, and they won't go any further than that.  
 
And really, what do you expect the responses to be to something like this?  I'd say they've been fairly tame, all things considered, and the OP's supporters are being just as rude.  So why only pick on the supporters of the game for being the toxicity here?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm glad he titled it that. Otherwise I wouldn't have known what was going on at all. Besides, everyone in this thread is missing the point. The title of this thread is SUCH a small problem compared to their own vicious behavior toward on another. THAT'S what stopped me from logging back in last night. That was the tipping point. The population dip which I noticed on my own and without this thread contributed slightly, as did the amount of bugs that are still in the game, and the obtuse rune system, but I was still willing to try this game simply because I love the atmosphere, tone, and lore so much.
 
This community was the tipping point, and was the reason I decided to step back, not log back in, and think about whether or not I actually want to play this game. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again, no one is being told to be silent.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
And making blatant accusations about this community being toxic.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You needed an intentionally provocative thread title and post to help you make up your mind?  Nevermind the plethora of posts and thread titles that are more positive but still touch on the problems at hand?  IDK, it just seems to me you were trying to find things to justify your mindset/prejudices to make leaving easier for you.  You site the toxicity as the reason you're leaving, but you had no problems contributing to it.
 
If you don't want new players first impression to be the toxicity, why bump the threads that have the toxicity in them and keep them up on top?
----
			You say it's not your job to police the forums, but yet you stated you had to come in here to call people out for toxicity?  OK then. 
			
				
	Edited December 13, 2015 by beattlebilly	
----
			This thread is so incredibly tame compared to some others I've seen, I'm having a hard time figuring out where it is saturated with hostility. Yeah, there are clearly some disagreements, but not much in the way of "vitriol". Lemurian's first post - which keeps getting brought up for some reason - is about as far away from "toxic" as one can get on this subject.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Way to ignore the entirety of my post except for that one line in order to make your response easier, but ok. 
 
And it's not a new player's job to walk on egg shells and know exactly which threads he should be commenting on in order to ensure that other new players don't see how terrible the community seems. 
 
I was simply trying to explain why myself and many other potential players aren't returning.
 
It's because of this, guys. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You say it's not your job to police the forums, but yet you stated you had to come in here to call the people out for toxicity?  OK then. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This thread is so incredibly tame compared to some others I've seen, I'm having a hard time figuring out where it is saturated with hostility. Yeah, there are clearly some disagreements, but not much in the way of "vitriol". Lemurian's first post - which keeps getting brought up for some reason - is about as far away from "toxic" as one can get on this subject.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Way to ignore the entirety of my post except for that one line in order to make your response easier, but ok. 
 
And it's not a new player's job to walk on egg shells and know exactly which threads he should be commenting on in order to ensure that other new players don't see how terrible the community seems. 
 
I was simply trying to explain why myself and many other potential players aren't returning.
 
It's because of this, guys. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No it's not.
You're just looking for a reason.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So someone who just came back to the game after trying it for a day, a potential new player whose barely said anything, is the reason the game is dying?
 
What logic are you following here? Someone who doesn't even play the game, but was considering coming back, is the reason the game is dying? Are you just saying things to say them now? I...I honestly can't even comprehend the logic behind this. 
 
This was a fruitless endeavor. You guys are right. It wasn't worth me coming here and commenting. I shouldn't have said anything. I don't know why I even considered coming back to this. It's not worth it. Goodbye again Wildstar. I'm sorry for personally destroying this game. I hope you don't curse my name when the last servers close. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, this thread is definitely tame compared to some other stuff I've been seeing on this forum. Still, I think it's worth bringing up that the hostility is the reason some people decide not to play this game, not the titles of certain threads. 
----
			
People posting on the forums are a minority of the total game population.
People posting on the forums are usually the one least satisfied, hence they post.
Threads like these tend to attract toxic behaviour all thou I cant say that I've seen much of it, maybe my tolerance for poo flinging is high?
 
Ijustwanttoplay. I personally dont see much of it in-game, its barely existant. People are helpful if anyone asks questions. There are the few rotten eggs but where even in real life can you go where there are an abscent of rotten eggs? Nowhere. Its just life, you can choose to argue with them wasting a lot of energy on nothing because lets face it, many rotten eggs will not change or you choose to ignore them, leaving them to decompose.
 
and honestly, since I started this game in june last year it has a very low percentage of toxic people compared to other MMOs and/or MOBAs I played.
Threads like this however, is non-constructive. It adds basically nothing that the devs can use.Also, unique visitors or not, this threads views should be an indicator that the sky isnt falling, even getting 2k-ish views pre-f2p was on a very selected few topics relating bigger issues.
 
Its too bad that you let a minority dictate if you are gonna keep playing or not. Most people in-game are very friendly and I've met a lot of great people over the last year and a half in Wildstar.
EDIT: the view comment was a bit off. There was a very similiar thread apparently that was 10k+ views. My point still stands thou :P
			
				
	Edited December 13, 2015 by Thalothean	
----
			
Threads like this assume that there's a problem that can be solved that actually can't be.
 
For instance let's look at the main two subjects brought up by this thread...
 
"NOTICING LESS AND LESS PEOPLE..." - He said about every MMO that's ever existed as time moves forward. This isn't a problem that has a solution. It's an inevitability of all MMOs. All MMOs can do in the current climate is spike their numbers around new events/content. They can never meet the supply and demand of any devoted player base nor actively compete with all forms of entertainment that are constantly vying for people's attention.
 
"So, as a player base, what can we do as players to help get people to come to this game?" NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Once again there is no constant or permanent solution to this problem. It's not something that can be fixed with MMOs at this point.
 
So many people assume that X MMO didn't do well or isn't doing well because of some specific element like End Game, PVP, Economy, etc, but in reality those are all very small things that don't really matter when compared to the larger problems at hand which is that the MMO genre overall is in a state of decline. It has been for some time now and there's nothing that can change that. Once you realize that, everything becomes easier. That's not to say never criticize X MMO or whatever but rather realize that things will only get worse for MMOs as time goes on, not better. There is no recovery from the current decline that MMOs are on. There is no solution to the problem that will suddenly make MMOs way more relevant again.
 
For you to see any real change with MMOs or an MMO going forward what basically needs to happen is that everything kind needs to die off or there needs to be less active MMOs out there. There needs to be some kind of break in order for the genre to reset or revive itself, but even then it's unlikely that you're going to see MMOs on the scale of WoW, SWTOR, ESO, Wildstar, etc, in the future, ie traditional large scale MMOs. They cost way to much to make for the amount of people willing to play them.
 
Think about the fact that 5 years ago you could easily name several big MMOs that were coming out without much thought and that now you can't. Guess why that is? At a certain point everyone started to realize that the MMO genre really only panned out well for WoW and EVE. The MMO market wasn't as big as many publishers made it out to be "Oh hey look WoW has 12 million subs that are all paying $15 a month. We should get in on that!" but what those people failed to realize was it wasn't like there was another 12 million people out there waiting to pay $15 a month for another MMO. The market wasn't that large, and then every MMO that continued to come out just kept fracturing the audience that was already there into smaller and smaller chunks.  
			
				
	Edited December 13, 2015 by Phuxion	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The best thing about facts is they don't start with opinions :D
 
Also, when words that end with Y become plural, the Y turns into -IE. Such as the word baby becomes babies.
----
			
Eh to be fair, ruining the new pvp season and getting rid of what could have been potentially a large following of pvp'ers (due to the combat in this game being awesome!) probably didn't do the game or the pvp servers any favours. And as much as people are going to reply "Only a pve game", at launch the pvp community was huge (p2p launch) and would have stayed huge if carbine hadn't have done such a shoddy job of fixing bugs in pvp. Again the same happened with the f2p launch, the whole pvp playerbase (literally almost a full server as busy as jabbit) have dissipated.
 
Noone can deny how much pvp can promote a game, I only wish they had have seen this and followed through on the "50/50" mentality.
 
Right now I'm literally at the end of wanting to play pvp or the game anymore. They have ruined the seasonal rewards now as well, great job crabine.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Eh to be fair, ruining the new pvp season and getting rid of what could have been potentially a large following of pvp'ers (due to the combat in this game being awesome!) probably didn't do the game or the pvp servers any favours. And as much as people are going to reply "Only a pve game", at launch the pvp community was huge (p2p launch) and would have stayed huge if carbine hadn't have done such a shoddy job of fixing bugs in pvp. Again the same happened with the f2p launch, the whole pvp playerbase (literally almost a full server as busy as jabbit) have dissipated.
 
Noone can deny how much pvp can promote a game, I only wish they had have seen this and followed through on the "50/50" mentality.
 
Right now I'm literally at the end of wanting to play pvp or the game anymore. They have ruined the seasonal rewards now as well, great job crabine.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I logged on to entity yesterday for the first time since the re-launch disaster which drove me away. No one was online in the zone I was leveling in. No big deal, but I got bored killing enemies by myself so I went to the forums to see what everyone thinks of the game and what's new.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
Eh to be fair, ruining the new pvp season and getting rid of what could have been potentially a large following of pvp'ers (due to the combat in this game being awesome!) probably didn't do the game or the pvp servers any favours. And as much as people are going to reply "Only a pve game", at launch the pvp community was huge (p2p launch) and would have stayed huge if carbine hadn't have done such a shoddy job of fixing bugs in pvp. Again the same happened with the f2p launch, the whole pvp playerbase (literally almost a full server as busy as jabbit) have dissipated.
 
Noone can deny how much pvp can promote a game, I only wish they had have seen this and followed through on the "50/50" mentality.
 
Right now I'm literally at the end of wanting to play pvp or the game anymore. They have ruined the seasonal rewards now as well, great job crabine.
 
----
			Probably because the PvP crowd is more hooked on MOBAs or FPSes and are kind of a minority in the MMO demographic. That's not to say that PvP doesn't deserve attention, but I don't think PvP alone would be able to sustain an MMO.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Probably because the PvP crowd is more hooked on MOBAs or FPSes and are kind of a minority in the MMO demographic. That's not to say that PvP doesn't deserve attention, but I don't think PvP alone would be able to sustain an MMO.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Probably because the PvP crowd is more hooked on MOBAs or FPSes and are kind of a minority in the MMO demographic. That's not to say that PvP doesn't deserve attention, but I don't think PvP alone would be able to sustain an MMO.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Probably because the PvP crowd is more hooked on MOBAs or FPSes and are kind of a minority in the MMO demographic. That's not to say that PvP doesn't deserve attention, but I don't think PvP alone would be able to sustain an MMO.
----
			
Gonna make my final post in this thread.
Many good points have been brought up as to the deficiencies of WildStar.
I'm also glad that I'm not the only one brave enough to point out excessive toxicity of specific forum goers (and certain parts of the forum in general) as being newbie-hostile and making threads like 'WildStar is not for me' seem that much more relevant.
 
So lemme briefly summarize what's been going on.  Maybe people will understand if it isn't across tons of pages.  Maybe.
 
Stated Complaints
WildStar is not for this player
 
-The game is too difficult
--The game relys too much on twitch reflexes
---Twitch reflexes are unable to be done properly many times due to server issues (latency) and performance issues (low fps) caused by poor optimization with the WildStar client-side and server-side software and networking infrastructure.
 
--The game relys on spreadsheets to be utilized to figure out what is best
---This goes beyond just min-maxing but actually being USEFUL in a raid without severely lagging behind others and dragging them down
 
---The pressure to do well conflicts with having fun for many people
--The lack of in-game tutorials & guidance makes it difficult to figure out what to do at 50 and how to perform well
 
---(Toxicity) Newbies are yelled at and told to go look up stuff they have no idea about instead of being guided on how to do well
---(Toxicity) Newbies are called lazy if they don't immediately know to look up X forum with X guides on classes even though it isn't accessible in search results
---(Toxicity) Newbies are called lazy if they try to ask questions in the forums and yelled at to 'just google it scrub haha' and so on
---(Toxicity) Newbies are expected to learn the ins and outs without any map or guidance
---(Toxicity) 'Just go make a group or make friends or make a guild and dont bother to complain about anything'
---(Toxicity) 'Why are you making threads about low population you are a LIAR and we will spend pages of posts yelling at you and telling you to not do the thing that we want to bury even though posting in the thread constantly rises it to the top of the list and is thus completely counterproductive to our intent because hypocrisy is tasty'
 
So every time any of the above points are brought up, they are met with toxicity.
I myself am a bit stubborn in continuing to post and hope things change but even I have been advised by friends to just spend time in our little housing bubble and let the toxic people on the forums deal with each other instead.
 
I do wish things were better.  When Orange Hatter made a comment/joke about the forums being a toxic hellhole then they were speaking the truth.  It becomes even more of a joke when you realize just how many people judge a game by the forums.
 
Many/Most PvP people are toxic?
{| class="blockquote"
No they're not because they say so and anyone who says otherwise is a troll and blah blah blah nothing should ever change.  My group of friends is fantastic and we NEVER have problems and YOU are the one with problems so CYA and dont' come back blah blah blah. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
rectify a situation that you're PART OF THE PROBLEM. people leaving for the pve server the second things start to level out as a knee jerk actuall CAUSES the servers to die... good riddance.
 
heres a reddit TIL, 15 years to build up a player base is probably a large factor in that. or do you LEGITIMATELY think EQ classic is more entertaining to watch than wildstar?​
----
			Hmmm.	
----
			There was literally 1 dude at the contract board in warhound lol. so dead	
----
			
I'm disgusted by the absolutely *shitty* support from ncsoft.  If you need something from support, your best bet is to uninstall wildstar.  They file bug reports and tell you to go to the forum.  Nothing else.
 
And now?  Now characters are rolling back, and there's not a single dev response about it?  Character integrity is one of the ABSOLUTE top priorities of ANY game, especially an MMO, and apparently they STILL can't get things like this right?
 
It's a shame, since I like the combat and controls and story and housing, plus the art is unique.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Think about the fact that 5 years ago you could easily name several big MMOs that were coming out without much thought and that now you can't. Guess why that is? At a certain point everyone started to realize that the MMO genre really only panned out well for WoW and EVE. The MMO market wasn't as big as many publishers made it out to be "Oh hey look WoW has 12 million subs that are all paying $15 a month. We should get in on that!" but what those people failed to realize was it wasn't like there was another 12 million people out there waiting to pay $15 a month for another MMO. The market wasn't that large, and then every MMO that continued to come out just kept fracturing the audience that was already there into smaller and smaller chunks.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While I agree with you that the market is pretty crowded for MMORPGs, it's worked out just fine for a lot of games other than WoW and EVE. It is still possible for some MMORPGs to do better and others to do worse according to the appeal of the games themselves, and the whole "MMORPGs are all on the decline" isn't really a fair reason to simply avoid asking what this game could be doing to increase its market share.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Let's not forget that MMOs are actually an evolving beast either. MMOs were around in many forms, and before the big hitters like EQ and WoW there were plenty of other mmos - and before those there were the online mudds that cost something ridiculous like 70+ dollars a month and business level connection for those who wanted to get involved. Most people these days assume MMO = WoW style, which isn't really true at all.
 
They will always exist, and at this point we're just waiting for the next evolution. WoW injured the evolution process by providing a go-to model for businesses that care about money. Hopefully soon we'll see the next innovations?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Let's not forget that MMOs are actually an evolving beast either. MMOs were around in many forms, and before the big hitters like EQ and WoW there were plenty of other mmos - and before those there were the online mudds that cost something ridiculous like 70+ dollars a month and business level connection for those who wanted to get involved. Most people these days assume MMO = WoW style, which isn't really true at all.
 
They will always exist, and at this point we're just waiting for the next evolution. WoW injured the evolution process by providing a go-to model for businesses that care about money. Hopefully soon we'll see the next innovations?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While I agree with you that the market is pretty crowded for MMORPGs, it's worked out just fine for a lot of games other than WoW and EVE. It is still possible for some MMORPGs to do better and others to do worse according to the appeal of the games themselves, and the whole "MMORPGs are all on the decline" isn't really a fair reason to simply avoid asking what this game could be doing to increase its market share.
----
			
Seriously, the PVP could have saved Wildstar. I know people who don't play pvp don't understand, but the whole pvp server was ABSOLUTELY PACKED. It would have stayed in that state with a steady influx of f2p players just looking for some mmo pvp. Not all pvp'ers like mobas (find the maps/gamemode boring) or fps games. Instead they are looking for something where it's just beating each other. Lots of people enjoy the danger of being ganked in the open world, if you don't I completely understand that, but saying that the gamemode should be removed when it's oh-so-popular is just... no.
 
Seriously, look at ESO. All of the cyrodill instances/campaigns are pretty much FULL. From low level to VET level. There are always more people coming in to play it, and it's a constant battle 24/7. Why? Because it's open to everybody and offers incentives both for pve players (skyshards/instances) and pvp players.
 
Look at GW2, the pvp is bustling all the time and is packed. It's the gamemode I always hear about but have never played.
 
Look at Archage, may have gone pay2win but their pvp following is still very big!
 
Look at RIFT, even though the pvp is rubbish in comparison to wildstar, there is still a pvp following and battlegrounds pop all the way from the bottom tier.
 
Yeah, pvp may not save wildstar, but it sure would add a lot to the experience. The pve is fantastic in this game, hands down the best content in the game. But just having a populated pve servers is just a bad image on the game. If someone was to ask me now "is it worth playing pvp in wildstar" I would reply "Don't be stupid and make it your main focus like I did, make sure to do it as an out of raid-time thing". Because right now, I feel stupid for being with the game so long playing pvp and mostly getting shafted by the devs. There is no care for a massive part of the playerbase :(	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Seriously, the PVP could have saved Wildstar. I know people who don't play pvp don't understand, but the whole pvp server was ABSOLUTELY PACKED. It would have stayed in that state with a steady influx of f2p players just looking for some mmo pvp. Not all pvp'ers like mobas (find the maps/gamemode boring) or fps games. Instead they are looking for something where it's just beating each other. Lots of people enjoy the danger of being ganked in the open world, if you don't I completely understand that, but saying that the gamemode should be removed when it's oh-so-popular is just... no.
 
Seriously, look at ESO. All of the cyrodill instances/campaigns are pretty much FULL. From low level to VET level. There are always more people coming in to play it, and it's a constant battle 24/7. Why? Because it's open to everybody and offers incentives both for pve players (skyshards/instances) and pvp players.
 
Look at GW2, the pvp is bustling all the time and is packed. It's the gamemode I always hear about but have never played.
 
Look at Archage, may have gone pay2win but their pvp following is still very big!
 
Look at RIFT, even though the pvp is rubbish in comparison to wildstar, there is still a pvp following and battlegrounds pop all the way from the bottom tier.
 
Yeah, pvp may not save wildstar, but it sure would add a lot to the experience. The pve is fantastic in this game, hands down the best content in the game. But just having a populated pve servers is just a bad image on the game. If someone was to ask me now "is it worth playing pvp in wildstar" I would reply "Don't be stupid and make it your main focus like I did, make sure to do it as an out of raid-time thing". Because right now, I feel stupid for being with the game so long playing pvp and mostly getting shafted by the devs. There is no care for a massive part of the playerbase :(
----
			
So aside from some of the issues mentioned here... please keep in mind that it is also that time of year.
 
For my guild, several people have taken a leave of absence so that they can finish their degrees. They actually removed themselves from GroupMe and other social media so they could focus on that.
 
Also, people are traveling and hosting family, so their available time will be limited.
 
There are other games out that are sapping attention AND it's also that time of year where big name games are released. So after people get over their honeymoon period with their new game(s), then hopefully they will be back.
 
I'm just providing an alternative view based on why numbers are dwindling right now (not before the holidays, that's a separate issue).	
----
			
There's lots of reasons why people leave the game:
 
-Life (unexpected stuff or they need to get things done)
 
-Gaming Community
 
-Ongoing bugs not being fixed
 
-Class changes
 
-Unprofessional Staff
 
-Tired of the game
 
-Quests becomes difficult for some
 
What can you do about it? Either be supportive and help people or do your own thing but don't be an ass.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
- in the last 2 years crowd funding MMO projects became a thing. Once again one could argue is it good or bad. 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just curious which games were crowd funded?  i have not heard of this for a videogame, couldnt most of the money be eaten up in "development costs" before anything was put together.  then you charge your rent as a business expense because you work from home and it is the business address, then you take a salary, etc. forgive me if this assumption is wrong and that there are checks in place to prevent money going to a situation like this.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
See this list of crowd funded projects. There's lots of video games in that list, although most are still in development. The checks and balances are usually full transparency with the backers and regular progress updates from the devs via video, streams, forums etc. Also lots of plenty of dialogue / feedback with the backers.
 
Time will tell if it's an effective way to develop games that players want to play and, most importantly, successfully deliver them. I'm hopeful it's good way to get some aspects of gaming back towards its roots - i.e. games developed primarily to be games rather than marketing, revenue stream or social engineering exercises.
 
However, it all depends on the team behind the project and making sure they stick to their goals and don't bite off more than they can chew and put the entire project in danger as a result. It only needs a high profile failure of this funding method to wobble confidence and there's certainly potential for this to happen.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Seriously, the PVP could have saved Wildstar. I know people who don't play pvp don't understand, but the whole pvp server was ABSOLUTELY PACKED. It would have stayed in that state with a steady influx of f2p players just looking for some mmo pvp. Not all pvp'ers like mobas (find the maps/gamemode boring) or fps games. Instead they are looking for something where it's just beating each other. Lots of people enjoy the danger of being ganked in the open world, if you don't I completely understand that, but saying that the gamemode should be removed when it's oh-so-popular is just... no.
 
Seriously, look at ESO. All of the cyrodill instances/campaigns are pretty much FULL. From low level to VET level. There are always more people coming in to play it, and it's a constant battle 24/7. Why? Because it's open to everybody and offers incentives both for pve players (skyshards/instances) and pvp players.
 
Look at GW2, the pvp is bustling all the time and is packed. It's the gamemode I always hear about but have never played.
 
Look at Archage, may have gone pay2win but their pvp following is still very big!
 
Look at RIFT, even though the pvp is rubbish in comparison to wildstar, there is still a pvp following and battlegrounds pop all the way from the bottom tier.
 
Yeah, pvp may not save wildstar, but it sure would add a lot to the experience. The pve is fantastic in this game, hands down the best content in the game. But just having a populated pve servers is just a bad image on the game. If someone was to ask me now "is it worth playing pvp in wildstar" I would reply "Don't be stupid and make it your main focus like I did, make sure to do it as an out of raid-time thing". Because right now, I feel stupid for being with the game so long playing pvp and mostly getting shafted by the devs. There is no care for a massive part of the playerbase :(
----
			
I think the most telling MMO News of 2015 is that World of Warcraft will no longer publish the number of it's active subscribers.
 
When the most popular MMO in history, the Big Kauhuna, the Main Man, the BMOC can't dare to show it's sub-numbers, it's safe to say that the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely. The days of "Be Everything To Everyone" MMOs is over. WildStar will likely be the last of it's kind.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the most telling MMO News of 2015 is that World of Warcraft will no longer publish the number of it's active subscribers.
 
When the most popular MMO in history, the Big Kauhuna, the Main Man, the BMOC can't dare to show it's sub-numbers, it's safe to say that the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely. The days of "Be Everything To Everyone" MMOs is over. WildStar will likely be the last of it's kind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the most telling MMO News of 2015 is that World of Warcraft will no longer publish the number of it's active subscribers.
 
When the most popular MMO in history, the Big Kauhuna, the Main Man, the BMOC can't dare to show it's sub-numbers, it's safe to say that the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely. The days of "Be Everything To Everyone" MMOs is over. WildStar will likely be the last of it's kind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the most telling MMO News of 2015 is that World of Warcraft will no longer publish the number of it's active subscribers.
 
When the most popular MMO in history, the Big Kauhuna, the Main Man, the BMOC can't dare to show it's sub-numbers, it's safe to say that the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely. The days of "Be Everything To Everyone" MMOs is over. WildStar will likely be the last of it's kind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nobody seemed to notice that SWTOR, GW2, STO, ESO, and WoW all announced expansions within the year 2015. Wildstar and ESO both went F2P in 2015. Of those 5 expansions announced 4 came out this year. Almost all of them within a month from one another. Note that this is not a good thing. What all that shows is that not just one game but pretty much all the best known MMOs out there were/are desperate for attention. They all basically panicked at the same time. Again not a good thing. That means/shows/proves that there's a problem with the overall genre as a whole, and not a specific MMO. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't believe that its the MMO genre dying, it's just that we have so many freaking MMO's to choose from now. All the players that played the few MMO's back in the day are now in different games. As an MMO community, we're just too spread out due to ALL OF THE MMO'S currently out.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem with the MMO genre is a larger problem with the gaming industry as well as the economy as a whole.
 
At some point in the last 10 years there was a switch where game companies went from being run by enthusiasts to becoming more of a corporate structure.  It didn't happen with every company at once but its really getting there now.  This change brought about a number of other changes that has had some good and some bad effects.  Games have become very widely consumed and for many people, mostly free.  The most widely played games have micro transactions rather than a pay to play model and many would tag this as a problem.  Thats a different topic for a different time.  While F2P can be highly profitable one of the main reasons the F2P model was adopted so widely is the number aspect.  In other words, reducing the barrier to entry.  Being able to boast about how many total players you have, daily active users, total downloads, etc.  With game companies like EA and Activision being publicly traded companies they are subject to the changes in how companies are functioning within the economy.  To spare you the boring details and to save my fingers from typing too much I'll skip to the point.  
 
How your company comes off to shareholders and those looking to become shareholders is what matters most atm (a.k.a. Stock price).  This is why appealing to the larger amount of casual players has become the norm, it makes for better press releases when you can show larger amounts of players.  Their engagement doesn't matter, their enthusiasm for the IP doesn't matter, in fact the long term viability for the franchise doesn't matter to a point.  There is evidence of this everywhere in game culture.  Every AAA title release is accompanied by some press release bragging about some statistic, Activision-Blizzard acquiring King (the company that makes Candy Crush Saga) and then proudly stating they've become the most profitable interactive company in gaming (not something their consumers should enjoy hearing but most don't care).  Or how the initial release of many games is all that matters, preorder numbers, day 1 sales, week 1 sales but then when it comes time to genuinely support the game over its life span it will usually get half assed patchs while the company is working on the next big thing.
 
So how does this relate to the MMO market and its supposed demise?  Well, its very similar to a stock market bubble.  The amount of people playing MMOs was inflated well above the amount that would genuinely enjoy what the genre is actually about. This is due to the catering of content to many different groups to get bigger and better numbers, or in the case of some MMOs, any number at all.  What we are seeing now is a correction back down because the longevity of MMO gaming doesn't appeal to that many people.  On top of that, many who do genuinely enjoy the genre have been driven off for reasons too numerous to list.  Will the genre die?  I don't think so.  But I do think it will be a long time before another good MMO comes out.
 
Also, not all game companies are like what I described and I do want to separate the developers from those that run the companies.  I have no doubt many devs genuinely care about their work and the players but unfortunately they aren't always making the important decisions.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem with the MMO genre is a larger problem with the gaming industry as well as the economy as a whole.
 
At some point in the last 10 years there was a switch where game companies went from being run by enthusiasts to becoming more of a corporate structure.  It didn't happen with every company at once but its really getting there now.  This change brought about a number of other changes that has had some good and some bad effects.  Games have become very widely consumed and for many people, mostly free.  The most widely played games have micro transactions rather than a pay to play model and many would tag this as a problem.  Thats a different topic for a different time.  While F2P can be highly profitable one of the main reasons the F2P model was adopted so widely is the number aspect.  In other words, reducing the barrier to entry.  Being able to boast about how many total players you have, daily active users, total downloads, etc.  With game companies like EA and Activision being publicly traded companies they are subject to the changes in how companies are functioning within the economy.  To spare you the boring details and to save my fingers from typing too much I'll skip to the point.  
 
How your company comes off to shareholders and those looking to become shareholders is what matters most atm (a.k.a. Stock price).  This is why appealing to the larger amount of casual players has become the norm, it makes for better press releases when you can show larger amounts of players.  Their engagement doesn't matter, their enthusiasm for the IP doesn't matter, in fact the long term viability for the franchise doesn't matter to a point.  There is evidence of this everywhere in game culture.  Every AAA title release is accompanied by some press release bragging about some statistic, Activision-Blizzard acquiring King (the company that makes Candy Crush Saga) and then proudly stating they've become the most profitable interactive company in gaming (not something their consumers should enjoy hearing but most don't care).  Or how the initial release of many games is all that matters, preorder numbers, day 1 sales, week 1 sales but then when it comes time to genuinely support the game over its life span it will usually get half assed patchs while the company is working on the next big thing.
 
So how does this relate to the MMO market and its supposed demise?  Well, its very similar to a stock market bubble.  The amount of people playing MMOs was inflated well above the amount that would genuinely enjoy what the genre is actually about. This is due to the catering of content to many different groups to get bigger and better numbers, or in the case of some MMOs, any number at all.  What we are seeing now is a correction back down because the longevity of MMO gaming doesn't appeal to that many people.  On top of that, many who do genuinely enjoy the genre have been driven off for reasons too numerous to list.  Will the genre die?  I don't think so.  But I do think it will be a long time before another good MMO comes out.
 
Also, not all game companies are like what I described and I do want to separate the developers from those that run the companies.  I have no doubt many devs genuinely care about their work and the players but unfortunately they aren't always making the important decisions.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, when it comes to MMOs, nothing competes with WoW and EVE. They are worlds unto themselves. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
A game that has been out for more than a decade may have slowly declined to the point where some other game could end up with a larger number of players, so they've stopped telling people how many players they've got. Oh no, the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely.  :rolleyes:
 
----
			Wintersday looks great, too bad warhound is dead	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wintersday looks great, too bad warhound is dead
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's a real shame. Entity ... AT FIVE IN THE MORNING ... was so packed, I could barely move without lagging.
 
*sigh*
 
Server Merges (again) please!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But But.....
I don't want those PvP'ers....
----
			And *I* don't want EITHER group to get disillusioned and leave.	
----
			
you expect me to leave after this happened?
 	
----
			Awww Oli is all nice and wrapped up for me. *picks up and hugs* The perfect gift!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
you expect me to leave after this happened?
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The part in green is where you invalidate the part in red.
----
			The MMO genre will be dead in our lifetime.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The MMO genre will be dead in our lifetime.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No it won't it will evolve and adapt and take new form. The MMO spirit will live on in our hearts and minds so long as people wish to interact with each other on the same or multiple plane of virtual existence.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The MMO genre will be dead in our lifetime.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When the most popular MMO in history, the Big Kauhuna, the Main Man, the BMOC can't dare to show it's sub-numbers, it's safe to say that the bottom has fallen out of MMOs entirely.
----
			It's not surprising to see less people, but it's pretty much the same way in mmorpgs that aren't that popular on the list. There are a lot of decent mmorpgs out, but only the top 3 will grab most of the consumers. I'm pretty sure the trend will stay like this until some amazing mmorpg comes out with a different formula or it just dies. It could be the day and age that many players are just losing interest. Regardless of bad decision making from business companies bringing us shinies. This was going to happen anyway.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not surprising to see less people, but it's pretty much the same way in mmorpgs that aren't that popular on the list. There are a lot of decent mmorpgs out, but only the top 3 will grab most of the consumers. I'm pretty sure the trend will stay like this until some amazing mmorpg comes out with a different formula or it just dies. It could be the day and age that many players are just losing interest. Regardless of bad decision making from business companies bringing us shinies. This was going to happen anyway.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I mean it's not like WoW, SWTOR, ESO, Wildstar, etc, all had events going on (like Double XP weekends, etc) when the PS4 and Xbox One launched within a week of one another.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're right. It's not like that at all, since the PS4 and Xbox One launched before ESO or Wildstar had even been released.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 :huh: Look, I could've been more tactful there, no question. I apologize for being snide.
----
			I think you are letting the fact he is often on the side opposing get the best of you, Tex, because nothing of what you are saying is what I'd use to describe Yasfan's posts. They are some of the most logical in this whole community. The snark can be forgiven because, well, seriously: have you seen this forum when discussing anything that isn't breakfast? It can get to your nerves pretty fast.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think you are letting the fact he is often on the side opposing get the best of you, Tex, because nothing of what you are saying is what I'd use to describe Yasfan's posts. They are some of the most logical in this whole community. The snark can be forgiven because, well, seriously: have you seen this forum when discussing anything that isn't breakfast? It can get to your nerves pretty fast.
----
			if you look at who likes some of the peoples posts, it really paints a clear picture.  toxicity likes toxicity.  they are in a circle jerk and loving it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
if you look at who likes some of the peoples posts, it really paints a clear picture.  toxicity likes toxicity.  they are in a circle jerk and loving it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I understand people have their opinion, but realize, research and understand the vibe that's going on with the mmorpgs today. They're trying to be like Moba because they get the most attention.  If people want to disagree and ridicule against common logic about mmorpgs situation not bringing anything to the discussion. Then don't get defensive when someone attacks ya because you asked for it. 
 
The only 3 popular mmorpgs people will still play will be WoW, FFXIV and possibly GW2. Wild Star flopped and that weight carried on to this day. Wild Star can slowly come back, but that's a difficult task accomplished with what is given here at the moment.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Am I toxic when I like your post?
Just want to be sure, so I don't get labeled wrong again by people.
----
			
I understand people have their opinion, but realize, research and understand the vibe that's going on with the mmorpgs today. They're trying to be like Moba because they get the most attention.  If people want to disagree and ridicule against common logic about mmorpgs situation not bringing anything to the discussion. Then don't get defensive when someone attacks ya because you asked for it. 
 
The only 3 popular mmorpgs people will still play will be WoW, FFXIV and possibly GW2. Wild Star flopped and that weight carried on to this day. Wild Star can slowly come back, but that's a difficult task accomplished with what is given here at the moment.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
nope but i am sure you can see quite clearly for yourself.  they typically shout the loudest and treat people rudely.
 
but the fact that you asked the question now has me suspicious about your character.  jk.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are many mmos out there today. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Which is actually the real reason people falsely come to the conclusion MMOs are dying out. While there are probably more MMO players than ever, they're all divided up into smaller slices. Publishers have to accept WoW was an anomaly, and in many ways Ultima Online and Everquest were too. They were products of a new market, and got huge shares in their time, but now people realize there is always somewhere else to go when something happens to their game they don't like.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Apology not accepted. You know what you're doing when you speak to people like that. I am done with you. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Which is actually the real reason people falsely come to the conclusion MMOs are dying out. While there are probably more MMO players than ever, they're all divided up into smaller slices. Publishers have to accept WoW was an anomaly, and in many ways Ultima Online and Everquest were too. They were products of a new market, and got huge shares in their time, but now people realize there is always somewhere else to go when something happens to their game they don't like.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Btw oh lord of infinite wisdom you've still yet to explain how the MMO genre isn't in a state of decline when there are less MMOs being developed and less people playing them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Which is actually the real reason people falsely come to the conclusion MMOs are dying out. While there are probably more MMO players than ever, they're all divided up into smaller slices. Publishers have to accept WoW was an anomaly, and in many ways Ultima Online and Everquest were too. They were products of a new market, and got huge shares in their time, but now people realize there is always somewhere else to go when something happens to their game they don't like.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
First off, I don't see any sign that there are in fact fewer people playing MMORPGs. As many other people have rightly noted, there are a lot more MMORPGs out there these days--the playerbase is simply no longer concentrated into only a few games, which is why those games have gradually declining populations. You can pretend that nobody leaves one MMORPG for another one all you want, but most of the people I've met in the game came here from a different MMORPG and the same was true when I was playing TSW, it was true when I was playing Rift, it was true when I was playing CO.
 
Second, when you have a lot of MMORPGs that already exist and most of the likely customers for MMORPGs are already playing one of these games, at some point it becomes terribly difficult for new MMORPGs to break into the field because they don't just have to attract customers, they have to convince them to leave games that they're already in. So publishers become understandably reluctant to release new games just to watch them fail to capture any market share. That is not a sign of decline--in fact, it's exactly the opposite. That's a sign that the field has so many good, highly accessible products in it already that there simply isn't much need for more of the same right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The amount of people that you're talking about that bounce from MMOs isn't a significant portion of the MMO population* no matter how much you keep trying to exaggerate that fact.  *Citation needed
----
			
Back on topic, while people argue over stupid as *cupcake* semantics, I would be surprised if there's more than 300 active accounts on Warhound. 
 
Dead serious.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Saying "top businesses in a market pay attention to the size and mobility of the customer base for that market" isn't giving them much credit at all, really. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Back on topic, while people argue over stupid as *cupcake*semantics, I would be surprised if there's more than 300 active accounts on Warhound.
 
Dead serious.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
 
Nobody is leaving STO to go play Age of Conan. The amount of people that you're talking about that bounce from MMOs isn't a significant portion of the MMO population no matter how much you keep trying to exaggerate that fact. There are of course some people that will bounce around but for the most part people tend to leave an MMO because they get tired of stuff like "Kill 10 of these and collect 5 of those" so they don't leave one MMO to go to that exact thing in another MMO. Most people just either stop playing or take a break from the genre, or they played through all the new content and just stop until the next update comes out. That is more the direction things have been going in as of late.
 
Every company and their sister tried their hand at MMOs after WoW's success, but after SWTOR didn't hit big publishers seemed to realize that the MMO market wasn't quite what they expected it to be. That's why publishers stopped developing MMOs, that and the fact that MOBAs came along, ie the next "new hotness" genre, but then all the same publishers made the exact same mistakes with MOBAs that they did with MMOs.
 
Going by what you're saying you're making the case out to be that EA is a smart company that took a step back because they know self control and realized there were just too many quality products on the market to keep making more. That's why the plastic instrument genre died down/out a few years ago too right? It wasn't because the market got too over saturated with Rock Band, Guitar Hero, DJ Hero, Band Hero, etc right?
 
You're giving publishers and MMOs way more credit than they deserve. 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wait are you saying you played STO up to the end game or a significant portion of the game then left to play AoC or that you played STO for a little while and then went to AoC, because that's not what I'm talking about. If it's the former than you two are probably the only people in history to have done so.
 
I'm talking about the devoted players, the ones that stick with X MMO for an extended period of time. They don't tend to get fully invested in something like STO then go to AoC. It's too drastic of a shift or not what they're looking for.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
...i left sto to play age of conan. seriously. had a friend that said "sto sucks. we should leave and play age of conan." and then we did.
----
			
I played wow end tbc - mid cata.. back then I didn't think I would ever play any other game. However Cata didn't deliver and I left to Rift. I played Rift for a bit and went to Star wars, then I played GW2 for a while and then Planetside2 and I tried out neverwinter and, hmm... I don't know, I've made some returns to Rift and Wow. Before Wildstar f2p I played Skyforge :P 
So from mid-cata up until now I have played a fair bits of mmos :P However, now it feels like I can rest my feet in Wildstar for a bit... at least for housing, and hopefully for pvp if they do something about those bots. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
11 years of WoW -> 3 years of FF -> WildStar
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's more in line with what I expect. The specific here being the STO to AoC. Those two don't really compete with one another for players. Your example is totally normal, ie WoW to SWTOR or FF to GW2 or ESO. That example doesn't surprise me. That is fairly standard for the people who stick with MMOs.
 
The unknown is where do all the people who hop onto an MMO during it's launch go when the numbers go from being a million to 2 million players down into the thousands. There's no way all of those people go back to another MMO. You gotta imagine that some or a significant part of those people just want to try out the new thing. In other words the casuals, the audience that built WoW up to 12 million subs. I don't think/believe that audience still exists anymore, especially with so many MMOs being F2P it seems like so many people now do rotations. When whatever MMO does the next big update they hop onto to it to check it out, but what happens when all the big active MMOs out there aren't having updates all at the same time? How many people actually stick with a particular MMO during that time frame, how many hop around, and how many wait until some sort of update comes out?
 
It always seems like things either bad, stable, of fluxing, but never really changing or growing.
----
			
Auction completyly empty.
Primetime in the city the most l've seen 12 ppls
it is necessary to unite the server pvp+pve.
 
EU PvP server is completyly dead.
			
				
	Edited December 18, 2015 by Arrgh Grogh	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wait are you saying you played STO up to the end game or a significant portion of the game then left to play AoC or that you played STO for a little while and then went to AoC, because that's not what I'm talking about. If it's the former than you two are probably the only people in history to have done so.
 
I'm talking about the devoted players, the ones that stick with X MMO for an extended period of time. They don't tend to get fully invested in something like STO then go to AoC. It's too drastic of a shift or not what they're looking for.
----