107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-8

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You're talking about a different topic than we are.
You said "recruits" implying that they've been accepted into the guild, implying some form of application process/check of their skill/ability.
We're discussing PUG's. Don't confuse the two - they're not the same.
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It's not the one they sold us. Beginng and enc of story.
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You're talking about a different topic than we are.
You said "recruits" implying that they've been accepted into the guild, implying some form of application process/check of their skill/ability.
We're discussing PUG's. Don't confuse the two - they're not the same.
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Increased access is fuel for competitive players: my team welcomes a challenge and the competition - some teams feel threatened or afraid and react accordingly.
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If you bring a pug to your raid, they are either free DPS (if they're causing a wipe, you can kick them with no repercussions, especially if you let them know when you bring them in that you expect a certain level of performance), or a potential recruit that didn't even know they might be able to, or want to, raid.
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It's not the one they sold us. Beginng and enc of story.
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This guilty before proven innocent mentality is just childish.  Carbine has literally done nothing to demonstrate they will eventually nerf the difficulty of the combat/encounters in this game.
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Then leave. Because far more people want this to change than don't.
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It doesn't have anything to do with that. It's a simple matter of change in philosophy away from skill to accessibility. It's a harbinger to a different WildStar to come.
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Not a single person, EVER, was/is "threatened and afraid" of competition from people that needed content dumbed down to complete (because they couldn't even do silver dungeons, lol).  But please continue on as if you know what you are talking about.  This thread is turning out to be legendary with countless people that have posts like this.
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Did you really think a big time company like NCSoft was going to go Big Budget on a game for 10 masochists?  You want a game made by a much smaller company. They promised us nothing but Hard Raids. That's all they needed to deliver. No one showed up in WildStar hoping for a content gate.
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I thought you weren't trying to lock people out of content, so I'm a little surprised that you're so upset by Carbine shifting their position to greater accessibility.
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All these hardcore people running around  crying they nerfed the game... when they only changed 1 quest.
 
 
Good stuff  /popcorn
 
I must have missed the patch notes where dungeons and raids got easier	
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Please point to the content that was "dumbed down"... because even the people against the change agree attunement isn't content and that it's just a "gate".
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Not a single person, EVER, was/is "threatened and afraid" of competition from people that needed content dumbed down to complete (because they couldn't even do silver dungeons, lol).  But please continue on as if you know what you are talking about.  This thread is turning out to be legendary with countless people that have posts like this.
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It affects my content down the road, so it is of interest to me.
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The game was in development for 9 years. NCSoft knew exactly what they were getting. Carbine wasn't hiding anything from them, or anyone. It was never going to be a WoW-level project.
 
If the realty of things are falling so far short of their business plan, then they gotta do what they gotta do. But a nerf-centric development approach is not what I signed up for. So why would I invest my time and stick around?
 
WildStar was supposed to be an outpost for players who wanted an MMO again; where effort matters and is rewarded accordingly; where epics aren't lying on the ground. Instead, it's following the path of WoW just two months into launch.
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It affects my content down the road, so it is of interest to me.
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This has yet to become a factual statement.
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You matter-of-factly can now perform at a much lower level of ability to gain access to a raid.
 
That's they very definition of "dumbing-down."
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The game was in development for 9 years. NCSoft knew exactly what they were getting. Carbine wasn't hiding anything from them, or anyone. It was never going to be a WoW-level project.
 
If the realty of things are falling so far short of their business plan, then they gotta do what they gotta do. But a nerf-centric development approach is not what I signed up for. So why would I invest my time and stick around?
 
WildStar was supposed to be an outpost for players who wanted an MMO again; where effort matters and is rewarded accordingly; where epics aren't lying on the ground. Instead, it's following the path of WoW just two months into launch.
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Please point to the content that was "dumbed down"... because even the people against the change agree attunement isn't content and that it's just a "gate".
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http://www.twitch.tv/rykuns/c/4895515 (part 1)
http://www.twitch.tv/rykuns/c/4895524  (part 2)
^ Pug KV silver, with time to spare, nowhere near an ideal run.
 
Me and my friend puged a few silvers randomly yesterday.  This run was pretty bad (I d/cd, wipes on bosses, me and my friend 2 maning slavemaster, no trash skipping, ect) 
 
Claims that you have to skip trash, or can't get through a silver dungeon if you wipe or afk are just silly.  
 
I personally don't care that much that they're making attunements easier, but there really isn't anything wrong with the current system at all and I look forward to more threads being created in the raid forums to nerf that content as well.  	
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Not a single person, EVER, was/is "threatened and afraid" of competition from people that needed content dumbed down to complete (because they couldn't even do silver dungeons, lol).  But please continue on as if you know what you are talking about.  This thread is turning out to be legendary with countless people that have posts like this.
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This has yet to become a factual statement.
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My take...
 
You don't have to be perfect in a raid to pass it, you just have to get it done.  Why shouldn't dungeons and attunement to those raids follow the same lines?  You still need a competent group to pass a dungeon and get bronze since they didn't "nerf" the fights.  You just have more time to do it with wipes.  Just like a raid.  Wipe fest for a while, then you get it.  	
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I don't think I've seen you contribute one constructive comment to this thread today, Kia.
I really wish you'd stop bashing/insulting/attacking, both directly and indirectly, specific sections of the player base.
 
Leave your comments and opinions without having to insult people - I swear, no one will think lesser of you for it.
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Removing a gate = dumbed down.  Removing a challenge on something because of people unable to do it and then whining about it = nerfed.  However you want to view it, that's what it was.  Attunement being a gate is correct.  It blocks people who are not ready to raid, from raiding.  For people who are ready to raid, silver dungeons were trivial.  People can say all they want that a timer doesn't make the content less/more difficult.  But if it wasn't more/less difficult then it wouldn't be stopping people from doing it.  I honestly don't care for all of the rest of the excuses/banter going on as why they think this and why they think that.  I just stated reality.  Some people can see reason, and some can't.  It makes no difference to me.
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I thought you weren't trying to lock people out of content, so I'm a little surprised that you're so upset by Carbine shifting their position to greater accessibility.
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Just because I CAN and HAVE done multiple silver runs of every dungeon, doesn't mean that if I want to roll an alt, or roll on a new server, that I should HAVE TO, in order to raid again. Nor does having silver dungeons being a requirement mean that everyone who is attuned to GA will be any good as a player.
 
The only way to improve your ability to raid is to practice raiding. Preventing me from raiding merely prevents me from starting the process of learning to raid.
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My take...
 
You don't have to be perfect in a raid to pass it, you just have to get it done.  Why shouldn't dungeons and attunement to those raids follow the same lines?  You still need a competent group to pass a dungeon and get bronze since they didn't "nerf" the fights.  You just have more time to do it with wipes.  Just like a raid.  Wipe fest for a while, then you get it.
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Tedium isn't a skill check - and that is all that is being argued against.  Silver medals still exist and are still just as challenging.  The encounters and mechanics of this game have not changed.  There is no way you can say for certain that people who can't or don't want to do silver dungeons can't perform successfully in a raid.  There is also no way you can say for certain that people with silvers wont fall flat on their faces in a raid.  Only raids can determine that.
 
I don't want to do attunement for a second time (currently working on second time), or a third time, or a fourth time.
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Tedium isn't a skill check - and that is all that is being argued against.  Silver medals still exist and are still just as challenging.  The encounters and mechanics of this game have not changed.
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Removing a gate = dumbed down.  Removing a challenge on something because of people unable to do it and then whining about it = nerfed.  However you want to view it, that's what it was.  Attunement being a gate is correct.  It blocks people who are not ready to raid, from raiding.  For people who are ready to raid, silver dungeons were trivial.  People can say all they want that a timer doesn't make the content less/more difficult.  But if it wasn't more/less difficult then it wouldn't be stopping people from doing it.  I honestly don't care for all of the rest of the excuses/banter going on as why they think this and why they think that.  I just stated reality.  Some people can see reason, and some can't.  It makes no difference to me.
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The players that are on-pace to have success in the raid are easily hitting silvers and golds. But the players who couldn't even hit bronze are not ready and their experience will result in feedback that could quite literally shape content to come in the future.
 
I don't want to see that, and I don't want to see something like LFR. But I'm not so convinced we won't now, if they've shifted to "keep subscriber" over "make a great game."
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No, you stated opinion. Tedium doesn't equal challenge. That is reality backed up by the huge number of people leaving. 
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You don't have to do multiples of each run.  You only HAD to do 1 silver run of each.  If you have to clear it X amount of times on silver, I would understand.  But what you are saying, is just for the sake of argument, is lazy.
 
As far as you improving your ability to raid, there is nothing you can't learn from silver dungeons that you can learn in raids.  In raids you dodge red shit, and kill content quickly/efficiently, which is exactly what silver dungeons teach.
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Right, they didn't remove tedium - they removed the skill requirement.
 
How can anyone that bought this game applaud that?
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Tedium isn't a skill check - and that is all that is being argued against.  Silver medals still exist and are still just as challenging.  The encounters and mechanics of this game have not changed.  There is no way you can say for certain that people who can't or don't want to do silver dungeons can't perform successfully in a raid.  Only raids can determine that.
 
I don't want to do attunement for a second time (currently working on second time), or a third time, or a fourth time.
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Actually between being one of the main tanks for my guild and starting a second character to raid on I did have to do multiple runs of each silver run.  Because "play with your guild to get silvers" right?  Sorry to break it to you but someone is going to have to do the runs more than once, just because it isn't you doing them more than once at this particular time doesn't invalidate our concerns.
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Wait wait wait... there has been constructive posts in this thread ?
 
 
Did 1 quest really change your gameplay to make endgame easymode ?
Why does it matter if people get attuned ? Long as they don't change the raids or dungeons.
 
If they do that.. then people have more than enough reason to get upset.
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What's the most likely future scenario? Nerfs to raid content to save the players they just saved, or no nerfs and they scrap the players they just saved?
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You cant have a great game without having a player base more than the 5% with a game like this.
 
 
 
Post by timetravel in red
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said:
 
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
 
 
He also post both about dungeons... and raids... have no plans to change them.
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Yes, there have *cough cough* been constructive posts and/or discussions on this thread.
 
It doesn't matter matter if others get attuned, this thread was geared toward discussion of what could happen in GA when it becomes "too hard".
That's the whole reason I posted this thread in the first place.
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Silvers weren't tedious.  They were difficult.
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Umm
 
then read the dev posts.. and you have your answers to that quest..
 
Here ill help you out.
 
Recent posts by timetravel  Red are his replies.
 
Yesterday, 07:57 PM
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
 
I can't wait.
 
 
Yesterday, 03:51 PM
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
 
The dungeons are also in a pretty good place balance-wise. No plans to change them either beyond bug-fixing and polish.
 
Yesterday, 03:44 PM
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
 
GA is in a really good place right now balance-wise. No plans to change that.
 
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said:
 
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
 
 
 
oh Look no indication that this change will make GA easier
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Stopped reading after this.  Sorry, they are tedious.  That's my opinion after doing them multiple times (and would have had to do them again on an alt prior to this change - making it even more times) and you can't change that opinion.
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Umm
 
then read the dev posts.. and you have your answers to that quest..
 
Here ill help you out.  yes it says currently, but we have nothing else to go by.. except for pointless arguements.
 
 
 
 
Recent posts by timetravel  Red are his replies.
 
Yesterday, 07:57 PM
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
 
I can't wait.
 
 
Yesterday, 03:51 PM
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
 
The dungeons are also in a pretty good place balance-wise. No plans to change them either beyond bug-fixing and polish.
 
Yesterday, 03:44 PM
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
 
GA is in a really good place right now balance-wise. No plans to change that.
 
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said:
 
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
 
 
 
no indication that this change will make GA easier
 
I guess i just dont see the issue. as there isnt much to indicate a change
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Stopped reading after this.  Sorry, they are tedious.  That's my opinion after doing them multiple times (and would have had to do them again on an alt prior to this change - making it even more times) and you can't change that opinion.
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Umm
 
then read the dev posts.. and you have your answers to that quest..
 
Here ill help you out.  yes it says currently, but we have nothing else to go by.. except for pointless arguements.
 
 
 
 
Recent posts by timetravel  Red are his replies.
 
Yesterday, 07:57 PM
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
TehAcidBaron, on 12 Aug 2014 - 7:13 PM, said:
 
I can't wait.
 
 
Yesterday, 03:51 PM
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
Sephirox, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:46 PM, said:
 
The dungeons are also in a pretty good place balance-wise. No plans to change them either beyond bug-fixing and polish.
 
Yesterday, 03:44 PM
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 2:29 PM, said:
 
GA is in a really good place right now balance-wise. No plans to change that.
 
Baelix, on 12 Aug 2014 - 3:52 PM, said:
 
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
 
 
 
no indication that this change will make GA easier
 
I guess i just dont see the issue. as there isnt much to indicate a change
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LOL, there are some religions that would love you.
 
So you are saying that the only thing stopping you from getting silvers was that you didn't do them enough times and not because you weren't skilled enough?
 
 
LOL, that is different because..."reasons?"  Not sure.
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Is wipping on raid boss for 200+ times also tedious for you? I guess yes ... Then prepare for more tediousness ...
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LOL, there are some religions that would love you.
 
So you are saying that the only thing stopping you from getting silvers was that you didn't do them enough times and not because you weren't skilled enough?
 
 
LOL, that is different because..."reasons?"  Not sure.
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@Mods let's go ahead and close this thread now. It's turned into nothing but a medium by which people can directly insult the other based on their opinion over the changes.
What a toxic, toxic player base we have that we can't even have a discussion in which we express opposite opinions without resorting to insulting the opponents intelligence, characteristics, ability, skill, etc.	
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I've already answered this - we wont wipe 200+ times, or 350+ times for that matter and wiping on raid bosses that are followed up by analysis and strategy discussions are not tedious to me.  Silver dungeons are not hard - they are a time sink alt-killing requirement and nothing more.
 
 
I never said I didn't have silvers - I said I didn't want to have to keep doing silver runs for new recruits, new players, new alts, etc.
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@Mods let's go ahead and close this thread now. It's turned into nothing but a medium by which people can directly insult the other based on their opinion over the changes.
What a toxic, toxic player base we have that we can't even have a discussion in which we express opposite opinions without resorting to insulting the opponents intelligence, characteristics, ability, skill, etc.
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I've already answered this - we wont wipe 200+ times, or 350+ times for that matter and wiping on raid bosses that are followed up by analysis and strategy discussions are not tedious to me.  Silver dungeons are not hard - they are a time sink alt-killing requirement and nothing more.
 
 
I never said I didn't have silvers - I said I didn't want to have to keep doing silver runs for new recruits, new players, new alts, etc.
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@Mods let's go ahead and close this thread now. It's turned into nothing but a medium by which people can directly insult the other based on their opinion over the changes.
What a toxic, toxic player base we have that we can't even have a discussion in which we express opposite opinions without resorting to insulting the opponents intelligence, characteristics, ability, skill, etc.
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You don't have to do multiples of each run.  You only HAD to do 1 silver run of each.  If you have to clear it X amount of times on silver, I would understand.  But what you are saying, is just for the sake of argument, is lazy.
 
As far as you improving your ability to raid, there is nothing you can't learn from silver dungeons that you can learn in raids.  In raids you dodge red shit, and kill content quickly/efficiently, which is exactly what silver dungeons teach.
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			Wow, Tex, it seems that we have both hit on the crux of the issue here multiple times.	
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Wasn't the OP about dumbing the game down for casuals? How is that not insulting the opponent's ability/skill/characteristics?
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Tell me the reasons .. Tell me how learning boss fight for 500 times without mistakes is so much different that learning 20 times how to properly run dungeon without mistakes?
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He should have said dumbing the game down for bads.  Skilled casuals were more than capable of getting silver runs.
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That is true, but you could have stopped doing silver runs and only recruited people that had them?  Or had another group in your guild pick up the slack?  Or many of other things.  Or just run silvers for fun to see how fast you could do it.  And if you are lucky, every once in a while you would get a gold.   But I also agree with you, getting attuned on one character should have attuned you on your alts.
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Apparently telling Lethality he's wrong earned my post a deletion. I'll rephrase.
 
1. The game is bleeding subscriptions. Run around, look about, try to talk in zone chat. Etc. I don't need Carbine to tell me their game is rapidly shrinking and not doing well. 
 
2. There are people who want to be able to complete dungeons in games, even if they don't want to clear raids. So the medal system, which creates super toxic leavetastic PUG groups, makes that very difficult for people who want to: Hop in, do a dungeon, get some lootz, log off - from being able to have any sort of casual interface with the content whatsoever. Dungeons in a group finder, they should be somewhat puggable. I'm seeing people here post anecdotal evidence they have PUG'd instances, I am excited to hear that its the case. I see removing timers as a GREAT way to keep people sticking around through a few crappy wipes.
 
I am one of these players! In FF14 I do plenty of raid content, but most days I just want to log in and tank a few dungeons on my Paladin. I suffer a few wipes, teach some new players the mechanics, and we usually get through just fine. Yes I am a part of a guild, but sometimes people are off doing different things or I just want to stay off voice chat for a bit and get some marks for my next piece of gear. Do I attempt the Savage Coil of Bahamut (currently the "masochist" achievement only content in FF14)? No. 
 
Do dungeons need to prepare me for that crazy ridiculous competitive "world first wet dream" raid? No. Still having fun, mainly because I feel like there is content I CAN DO. In Wildstar, I would queue up for a dungeon, be hit with a leaver immediately, and go right back to the dungeon finder. No sense of progression, no sense of achievement, no reason to log in. Sorry, I thought (since many of you claim this game avoids its pitfalls....) from WoW that dailies are boring and a waste of my time.
 
There's no solo content worth doing. Dailies are boring. PVP is a broken mess. Adventure loot nerf takes pretty much all of the "progression fun" out of doing them, so really if I don't want to pound my face against GA ever (which I don't) my only major content option is....dungeons. Which apparently, Lethality, you only view as a stepping stone for raids. 
 
Not all of us do. Thanks.	
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And that would have been less insulting in your mind? That's interesting.
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How is it tedious to hone your skill/communication/efficiency?  Especially when each dungeon should only take 2 runs, tops, to get silver.
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I didn't "learn" the dungeons 20 times?
 
Each person or alt that has to go through the dungeon process for silvers = 4 dungeons.  2 characters = 8 times, running 2 guildies through their silver runs now = 16 times.  Tedium.
 
If I have to do dungeons, then so be it, but I want to be able to be drunk, screwing around, inventing my own fun to overcome the boring-ness of 5 player dungeons.
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Ok so if we want to follow trends...
 
1: Vet adventures got nerfed.. to take away an easy way to get Purples - Difficulty to get them went up as it takes much much more time.
  Casuals complained.. they were having there groups break apart... Carbine fixed the issue of groups disbanding, and at same time, made it harder to get purples in the new way.. It was a double edge sword.. they gave players what they asked for, but didnt make the loot easier to get.
 
2: Attunement changes - Easier to get attuned, did not change loot, or instance difficulty.
  They gave players what they wanted, but they did not make anything easier besides being able to walk in the door.
 
 
3:  Rune system - getting easier ? or Being adjusted ?
 
4: PvP gear changes ? making it easier ? or balancing pvp ?
 
 
 
The top two main things, have not really made pve any easier.. and gave people what they asked for.
 
 
And btw.. im a casual, i have 4/4 silver dungeons without many issues.. half the threads and posts by hardcore people are bashing "Casuals".. say one thing about someone hardcore and they get butthurt.	
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Which side started calling names first?
 
 
Oooooh. Right. 
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Wow, Tex, it seems that we have both hit on the crux of the issue here multiple times.
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Apparently telling Lethality he's wrong earned my post a deletion. I'll rephrase.
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And I guess you will simply be fully geared and quit raid after the first clear? ummm ok.
 
If i remember correctly, I was farming same raid for year each week in other mmorpgs ... 100 clear? 200? Who knows .. way more than some silver attunement dungeons.
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The Guild Leaders and Raid Leaders I've spoken with are welcoming this change.
 
Fielding a B team is a realistic proposition to some of them now, even if it means a couple current A team folks move down  :/
 
Echoing what others have stated, less re-running for our tanks/healers/alts/etc.
 
Overall a timely infusion of new blood; some teams were having trouble keeping their A team going let alone starting a B.	
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			Alright, folks. I think this thread has given us all she's going to. We're nearing some kind of ouroboros of feedback now; just circling back around on itself. I'm going to go ahead and lock this up.	
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