134756-the-fall-of-every-mediocre-mmo

== Content ==
			
Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.	
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			I agree with you. A lot of times devs only listen to their core group and it's really unfortunate to see. You have to take the good with the bad and try to find a solution that will make everyone happy but it isn't always that simple. In fact most of the time it is a really difficult thing to figure out. The issue I see with Wildstar is that it's branded as a themepark MMO, it has cartoony stylized graphics and those things can really appeal to the more casual gamer. The problem is that they're trying to make the game more of a hardcore experience and I don't really think it works. The term K.I.S.S. seems to fit here. Keep it simple stupid. Themeparks have to appeal to all types. They could have gone with a themepark/sandbox hybrid though and that may have worked out better for their gameplay model.	
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I agree with you, though often people will get flamed not for pointing an issue or flaw, but because of the context or negativity of the thread. I think some people often look for an opportunity to troll or flame and often targeting someone that is angry or upset are easy targets. I agree with you for the most part, though people need to start learning how to write a constructive thread instead of just raw hate towards something. Normally when I want to address a concern, I will try and list it appropriately, in technical forums or suggestions which are the forums that are most likely going to be taken serious.
I also found listing positives and negative critisism in a newly crafted thread often gets more positive attention and more often than not, other opinions which are just valuable as our own.	
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Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.
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leveling in wildstar is not that bad it took me 1 month to cap and when I reach cap! i already know what all my ability does and when it reaches to the point that I have to switch it up I can do so easily and that's just in a month the next month I was just goofing around trying new sets of skills..
 
and ofcourse devs will only listen to their core players. you said it yourself you dont know much about the game! if I was one of the devs even I wont listen to you! since you have no exp you dont know much of the story you probly only know the skill of your Character example stalker and might not know much of warrior skills now ask yourself what can you contribute? nothing right? by far only the leveling part makes sense but even that is not boring! the whole time I was expiriencing the leveling exp I reach cap before I finished all the major quest! and I finish all the major quest even when I reach 50 because it was fun! the especially the areas where the quest is taking you? you start from (exiles ) forest calm a bit peaceful to chaostic places like in wilderun! my god!
			
				
	Edited October 1, 2015 by Mad Nox	
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While I agree that veterans are too blinded by their own fanboyism to take in any negative feedback, I disagree with the notion that either side has more valid points towards furthering the game. Listening to your community on game design has its place at points, but can also serve to cripple the game's coherent design philosophy and make it a mess of crammed in features. Veteran players have a better idea of the design Carbine wants to achieve, but as you said are often held back by fanboyism. New players on the other hand have a fresh view on the game, but are typically expecting the developers to change the game to their whims because they don't understand the entire experience yet. "The player does not know what they want" may sound like some snobbish, *cupcake* remark but it is actually very real concept. Most players will consider their own experience first and the overall game design or larger picture second. In some cases the devs should stick to their guns and in some cases they should realize that they're wrong when the community calls them out on it.
 
In any case, don't expect the leveling game to change any time soon, if ever. It's too massive a change to turn that entire chunk of content into a questing experience like TESO or something "cinematic" like TOR. At least it's faster and easier to level in Wildstar now than it ever has been, even moreso if you cough up the plat or money for signature service and spend your omnibits on the leveling flasks.
			
				
	Edited October 1, 2015 by Kromulous	
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leveling in wildstar is not that bad it took me 1 month to cap and when I reach cap! i already know what all my ability does and when it reaches to the point that I have to switch it up I can do so easily and that's just in a month the next month I was just goofing around trying new sets of skills..
 
and ofcourse devs will only listen to their core players. you said it yourself you dont know much about the game! if I was one of the devs even I wont listen to you! since you have no exp you dont know much of the story you probly only know the skill of your Character example stalker and might not know much of warrior skills now ask yourself what can you contribute? nothing right? by far only the leveling part makes sense but even that is not boring! the whole time I was expiriencing the leveling exp I reach cap before I finished all the major quest! and I finish all the major quest even when I reach 50 because it was fun! the especially the areas where the quest is taking you? you start from (exiles ) forest calm a bit peaceful to chaostic places like in wilderun! my god!
 
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Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.
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Not going to read all of whatever was said in the OP because the basic gist is the same and so is the answer.
 
Opinions.
 
its not about being a fanboy and loving everything about the game, its aabout not seeing its faults as badly as someone who doesn't like certain aspect.
Only thing i ever disliked about wildstar was ridiculously short timers on Vet dungeons and the attunement process.
Some people liked it, that doesn't make them a fanboy, just means they enjoy a harder challenge than i do.	
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Devs only listening to the core players is exactly the problem I am trying to raise. The core playerbase of this game is clearly not enough, if they are moving to a F2P game. This is 100% F2P not even purchase the game and have no sub so they obviously need more players.  If the problem was that people couldn't afford games then we would not have FF14 being as successful as it is (even with the dated sub model).  The difference is that FF14 is polished and fun.  It feels smooth, is easy to pick up, and engaging.  Yes, they had to completely revamp it (I played the original and it was BAD) but they listened to their fans (also, yes it helped that they have one of the most successful IPs of any RPG but they still made a solid game).
 
Anyway, yes I will probably give it more of a chance but the questing system is boring and I am not the only person to say this.  When researching the game before downloading this was one of the major complaints I came across.  If major review sites are saying this, it is posted all over the forums, and it is apparent within 15 minutes of playing the game, then it is a problem the Devs should seriously try to at least acknowledge. 
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#1 You can't please everyone.
#2 You have to pick thing that will be accepted by majority.
#3 You must face minority's disapprove.
 
Dev's 101.	
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All MMOs are mediocre to a large extent. MMOs, as a concept, are stagnating.
 
Simplistic, uninteresting gameplay and static game worlds were ok in the days of UO and everquest where the simple fact of sharing a world with other players was novelty enough.
 
There was also an expectation that this type of game would become increasingly elaborate and provide endless opportunities for emergent gameplay.
 
But instead, developers focused on applying recipes from non-mmo games: curated and scripted content focusing on the production value rather than trying to innovate with the gameplay. So the result is games where you have a lot of visual diversity, nice sceneries, nice effects, cinematics everywhere but where you always do the same thing.
 
What mmo are in dire need of is systemic gameplay. Make a dynamic world by layering multiple simulations on top of each other (social, economic, climatic, etc.)
They don't need to be sophisticated, just to have sufficient combinatory interactions to make things always feel fresh and to provide ample room for creative gameplay.
 
Instead, we are stuck with the same tired "mobs wandering randomly around preset spawn points" and static level design formula because the game industry is almost entirely incapable of straying even one inch away from their comfort zone.
 
So it will take time for MMOs to evolve towards something more interesting. Meanwhile, you can have some vaguely interesting experiences by doing world pvp.	
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All MMOs are mediocre to a large extent. MMOs, as a concept, are stagnating.
 
Simplistic, uninteresting gameplay and static game worlds were ok in the days of UO and everquest where the simple fact of sharing a world with other players was novelty enough.
 
There was also an expectation that this type of game would become increasingly elaborate and provide endless opportunities for emergent gameplay.
 
But instead, developers focused on applying recipes from non-mmo games: curated and scripted content focusing on the production value rather than trying to innovate with the gameplay. So the result is games where you have a lot of visual diversity, nice sceneries, nice effects, cinematics everywhere but where you always do the same thing.
 
What mmo are in dire need of is systemic gameplay. Make a dynamic world by layering multiple simulations on top of each other (social, economic, climatic, etc.)
They don't need to be sophisticated, just to have sufficient combinatory interactions to make things always feel fresh and to provide ample room for creative gameplay.
 
Instead, we are stuck with the same tired "mobs wandering randomly around preset spawn points" and static level design formula because the game industry is almost entirely incapable of straying even one inch away from their comfort zone.
 
So it will take time for MMOs to evolve towards something more interesting. Meanwhile, you can have some vaguely interesting experiences by doing world pvp.
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You are comparing this game to a tab targeting game with 2.5 seconds global cool downs... really?, i dont even know why people pay for that... oh yeah i know, same thing you are criticizing, fanboyism.
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WoW and FF are both tab targetting games with subs that are doing very well for themselves while this game just went F2P, I wouldn't be looking down on them if I were you.
 
I get where OP is coming from, I googled a lot of concerns and questions I had about this game and in the vast majority of threads I read on here, reditt and other places it was full of people like this saying if you don't like it just go back to WoW or another MMO. Not a great attitude to have towards potential new players looking to share feedback on what would help them keep playing the game is it?
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You are very wrong.  As the Chua said, most Vet players have had lots of discussions about the game's faults and how and why the game can be improved.
 
If you're looking for blind white knights, this game has very few.
 
On the topic of levelling, I find the combat system very fun, so I enjoy the levelling in this game.  It's also about substantially faster to level now than it was on launch (and even faster if you're a sub).  Not that that's even necessarily a good thing, because trivialising levelling is NOT a good thing in my opinion.  Levelling is as much of the game as end-game is.
			
				
	Edited October 1, 2015 by surpriselol	
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The problem is not that the Veteran Community cannot handle feedback or criticism.
There have been huge discussions about things on these boards that utterly destroyed an idea that was implemented by Carbine and lead to changes or removal even of said idea.
The problem we have is HOW people bring up these discussions...
 
Don't:
 
Bring the idea as the all-problem-solving solution
Bring the feedback with "can be easily fixed by", it can't trust me.
Pretend to be an experienced game programmer unless you got the credentials to back it up
Just bash whatever it is you don't like
Write "I quit/won't pay" topics. We honestly don't care.
Do:
Describe what annoys you, why it annoys you, and how it would be better
Accept that you might be wrong/have a skewed look on things
that others might not like it
You can discuss things without being aggressive or abusive
 
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WoW and FF are both tab targetting games with subs that are doing very well for themselves while this game just went F2P, I wouldn't be looking down on them if I were you.
 
I get where OP is coming from, I googled a lot of concerns and questions I had about this game and in the vast majority of threads I read on here, reditt and other places it was full of people like this saying if you don't like it just go back to WoW or another MMO. Not a great attitude to have towards potential new players looking to share feedback on what would help them keep playing the game is it?
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			Just go PvP, Expeditions, Dungeons if u feel bored....and go back to quests after a while 	
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Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.
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"This new moron haven't given it a real shot! He don't know what he is talking about...right? Leave then, we won't miss you, go back to WoW, this game takes real skill!"
 	
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What bothers me about this thread is that most are coming across as 'veteran players = fanbois' and that the dev's only listen to them with no regard to what the new folks are saying.
 
To that regard, it is patently false. The dev's do listen and not 'just' to the 'veteran fanbois'. 
 
The dev's probably have their hands full about now but they do hop into threads and comment and clarify things. They do take people's opinions, criticisms and thanks to heart. 
 
Things don't change overnight. 
 
To the people that have just joined Wildstar: The dev's do listen! Post threads in the appropriate sub forum and give them a chance!! 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.
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I am wondering why are you still not a forum moderator.
 
Other than that , you give some really good points most of them people simply ignore them.
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Ya know, ironically it's usually when I hit level cap that I quit games... I enjoy the exploration, quests, process of leveling but usually I'm not satisfied with the shift in game at 'end game'. It just becomes a boring grind of the same dungeons or pvp grounds for months to earn currency that gives you slightly better gear... that's not the game I play mmo's for. 
 
Anyhooser, just my opine. *gets off soapbox
 
Edit: I forgot to mention this, on certain mmo's I will treat achievement hunting as 'end game', personally I think the whole concept of an 'end game' is a flawed formula...
			
				
	Edited October 1, 2015 by Nimander	
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So I am absolutely what you'd consider a veteran player on WildStar and I have no problem calling out the company for its shortcomings. The problem here is that we've been making excuses and telling our gaming friends about the game improvements for a year and change now, and then they go and shit the bed like they just did by doing things that we warned them were not going to work with the state of their technology and the time we had to help test bugs in the game.
 
In reality a lot of what you are seeing is people who stopped playing and just started again or just started telling you how you shouldn't be complaining because you have no idea what you're taking about. Meanwhile those of us who have seen Carbine consistently snatch defeat from the jaws of victory over the past 16 months are much less inclined to defend them.
 
For what it's worth, I logged in to another MMO of the FPS variety when their xpac launched two weeks ago to great fanfare and the game ran more or less flawlessly. So it's not like what's happening with Carbine right now is just the inevitable course of events. It isn't. It's a direct result of the actions they did or didn't take to prepare for this patch going live.	
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Yeah and Wow has a boring leveling too like i said, i dont know about FF but its an MMORPG so it probably is, and yeah tab targeting makes you fall to sleep in pve, at least in wow you had many abilities and stuff, in ff14 it seems there is only a few and a global cool down that is so high that you may aswell only see the character auto attack.
 
Those 2 games only exist and are "succesful" because of fans and fanboys, WOW was a great game back in the day not denying that but its not anymore, but fans and fanboys will still play it for nostalgia or whatever reason also lets not forget that WOW its also what it is because of the original Warcraft games... and final fantasy never was a great mmorpg the only reason is known is because of their single player games, bassically this game only exist because of fanboys of final fantasy. And thats why these 2 games can can get out with chargin people a monthly subscription, no other reason, its not gameplay or anything amazing not at all.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
The problem is not that the Veteran Community cannot handle feedback or criticism.
There have been huge discussions about things on these boards that utterly destroyed an idea that was implemented by Carbine and lead to changes or removal even of said idea.
The problem we have is HOW people bring up these discussions...
 
Don't:
 
Bring the idea as the all-problem-solving solution
Bring the feedback with "can be easily fixed by", it can't trust me.
Pretend to be an experienced game programmer unless you got the credentials to back it up
Just bash whatever it is you don't like
Write "I quit/won't pay" topics. We honestly don't care.
Do:
Describe what annoys you, why it annoys you, and how it would be better
Accept that you might be wrong/have a skewed look on things
that others might not like it
You can discuss things without being aggressive or abusive
 
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There is literally nothing wrong with tab targetting, the majority of MMOs use it in fact and with good reason. Just because you use tab to select a target does not invalidate the rest of the combat or make it less skillful, I've played games with and without it though and have no strong preference one way or the other. I'd say I kind of like GW2's soft tab targetting the most though, but it has other problems with its combat at a large group level that prevents me from enjoying it fully.
 
You are highly, highly deluded if you think WoW's rampant success (the majority of players these days probably haven't even heard of the RTS) and FF's complete turnaround from a dying game to a more stable, even growing population is due to "fanboys" and not them doing the right things design wise, feel free to keep sticking your head in the sand though, its why this game died in the first place and its attempt at a revival isn't doing much better.
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You can discuss things without being aggressive or abusive
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			I've played all the same games as the OP, and more, and played them all to end game. I found the leveling in this game to be fantastic. One of the best features so far, really. Shrug, different strokes. I do wish they had more cut scenes, and more of a fleshed out story line, like FFIX for example. GW2 has it also, to a lesser extent. That sense of being "in a movie" really makes leveling exciting.
			
				
	Edited October 1, 2015 by Blueskylight	
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			You know i actually love the game. I think it'sd very nice. But right now i have only bad things to say about it. Why? Cause i can't play because Carbine screw this re-launch and game is unplayable cause of lags. So yeah i'm pretty negative right now, but not cause i think game is bad, just that whole re-launch is big failure.	
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You know i actually love the game. I think it'sd very nice. But right now i have only bad things to say about it. Why? Cause i can't play because Carbine screw this re-launch and game is unplayable cause of lags. So yeah i'm pretty negative right now, but not cause i think game is bad, just that whole re-launch is big failure.
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			I feel sorry for MMO's. The best, most successful game in their genre is a mediocre game.	
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I am wondering why are you still not a forum moderator.
 
Other than that , you give some really good points most of them people simply ignore them.
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I feel sorry for MMO's. The best, most successful game in their genre is a mediocre game.
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Being a forum moderator on these boards is the last thing I want to be....
I've done customer support for games 3 years.
NEVER AGAIN
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The one that's bleeding subscriptions? The one where the next expansion is more recycled content and is so uninspired that even its devs looked embarrassed when they unveiled it? Yes, it's mediocre, because expectations have increased and games aren't meeting them anymore. The fact that it is still considered a reference of the genre ten years later illustrate what I was saying: MMORPGs are stagnating.
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Okay...Let me start by saying that I have not played this game much and am not attempting to make game fixing recommendations as I do not have the required experience with the game to do so.  However, being a fairly seasoned MMO player (UO, WOW, GW2, Rift, SWTOR, FF14, ESO etc.) I have noticed a trend that KILLS new MMOs that need changes.  
 
There is a time when an influx of new players joins (after BETA, big patches, expansions, payment models change etc.) when some (or more often many) of these new players do not like certain things about the game.  They (like I have in the past - yes even with this game...please forgive, I was frustrated with my initial experiences) go on the forums and make blanket criticism about how the game is terrible.  This is when the people that have invested time into the game and enjoy it (or maybe they are  just are trying to justify their wasted time) are blinded to the fact that...yes, some of the things these people bring up are true.  However, "these new morons haven't given it a real shot! they don't know what they are talking about...right?" Statements such as "leave then, we won't miss you," "go back to WoW," "this game takes real skill" start getting thrown around.  
 
The fact is, there are great things about the game and there are also really bad things about it as well.  However, the argument becomes like American politics where it is so polarized that each side is unwilling to budge or listen to the truth in many of the good arguments from the other side.  The "veteran" playerbase tells the Devs that they are making the best, most innovative and fun game there ever has been.  Then, the Devs start to listen to their "core" players (likely a result of attempts to protect their egos - lets be honest, it is much easier to believe that you made a great game after putting all of this effort into it). The result is that the game stays as is and the potential new players move on, the servers merge (this already happened as far as I know), and the game slowly and silently dies.
 
I do not wish this on Wildstar, I was actually excited to play it!  However, there are so many other games that feel new, exciting, engaging, innovative, inspired, **add another cliche term here** above and beyond what this game has to offer.  If you truly want this game to survive then listen to the critics and allow the Devs to hear what is wrong with it.  If you just keep telling them that everything is great then new players won't feel heard. The leveling system is BORING.  This is a huge problem for the entitled lazy gamer.  I know that the real game in 90% of MMOs starts with the end game, but if I need to spend 100 hours to get there and it is painful the whole way there I won't bother.  If real life is more exciting when I am bored out of my mind, then why am I slouched over in this chair trying to get excitement out of a game that promises fun after a terrible long grind?  I have many other games I can turn to, especially when veteran players don't want anything to change.
 
My 2 cents, meant to be constructive but...here come the haters.
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Devs can't really win anymore and i can't really blame them for being safe, they just made a game that cost tens of millions, sometimes hundreds of millions and if they fail, that game on their resume will almost guarantee they never work in the industry again. 
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