132123-2pcom-rated-closed-beta-already

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Hey guys, 
 
I don't know if some of you guys saw this yet 
 
http://2p.com/36297293_1/Wildstar-Free-to-Play-Closed-Beta-Review-by-AnotherInfinity.htm
 
9.1/10 rating.
 
Curious what you guys think =). Im still a new player and I think the game is great, it's cool another source things so too ;p	
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I think it's good news, but honestly it reads a lot like most reviews back at launch did--and like most player feedback while leveling. The real issue is sustaining player interest in an endgame where progression stops very quickly unless you're a hardcore raider.
 
How will the incoming players respond to that? Hard to say, but I guess we'll know in a month or two.	
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I think it's good news, but honestly it reads a lot like most reviews back at launch did--and like most player feedback while leveling. The real issue is sustaining player interest in an endgame where progression stops very quickly unless you're a hardcore raider.
 
How will the incoming players respond to that? Hard to say, but I guess we'll know in a month or two.
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 Don't pretend otherwise just because he added Frost's Carbine's prefered adjective to 'raider'.
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He fights the concept of locking progression behind a single and specific type of content. You have discussed things with Yasfan long enough to know the difference, Dharnell. Don't pretend otherwise just because he added Carbine's prefered adjective to 'raider'.
 
Oh, as for the review... it seems pretty much with what I thought back in the first betas of the game, with a bunch of improvements on top. The game was very nice until you reached maximum level.Not sure if F2P will lead down the same path as before, though, because maybe end-game in the F2P transition will be better or more accesible. I haven't heard from any changes there besides the crafting issues. So...let's wait and see, I guess.
			
				
	Edited September 20, 2015 by Ildur	
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Sooo... Should I infer from your comment that you believe the "casual raider" has lots of options here, like the ability to enter raid queues or less challenging raids than the ones from launch, Dharnell?
 
And more to the topic of the thread, any opinions on the review?	
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 any opinions on the review?
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Hey Crazya!
Welcome to Wildstar!
 
Let's get back to our main topic!
Seeing positive reviews is always good for the game! We are all aware that advertisement is not one of Wildstar's strong suits (I am sure that this is going to change in the future ^^). It's a great game after all and deserves the 9.1/10 (in my opinion)	
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I disagree. If it ended with him how it is then that we don't have 'casual' modes for raiding?
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Fixed that for you. He did some great stuff while he was here, but the 'hardcore' push pretty much started and ended with him, and he's not here anymore. If you guys are gonna run the argument around the barn again, let's at least be accurate about it.
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He fights the concept of locking progression behind a single and specific type of content. You have discussed things with Yasfan long enough to know the difference, Dharnell. Don't pretend otherwise just because he added Carbine's prefered adjective to 'raider'.
 
Oh, as for the review... it seems pretty much with what I thought back in the first betas of the game, with a bunch of improvements on top. The game was very nice until you reached maximum level.
Not sure if F2P will lead down the same path as before, though, because maybe end-game in the F2P transition will be better or more accesible. I haven't heard from any changes there besides the crafting issues. So...let's wait and see, I guess.
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Actually, Lemurian, I don't agree with you about that at all. Frost may have been the most visible hardcore proponent here, but the mindset is alive and well and that can be seen very clearly in all kinds of ways.
 
Frost didn't make them restrict almost half of their new runesets to iLevel 120--Datascape gear only. Nor did he force them to make mastercrafted gear an incentive to raid. He's not the reason that no open world zone or new adventure, dungeon, or shiphand mission has been allowed to increase in challenge/reward beyond the entry-point for the raiding progression for the last year.	
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Sooo... Should I infer from your comment that you believe the "casual raider" has lots of options here, like the ability to enter raid queues or less challenging raids than the ones from launch, Dharnell?
 
And more to the topic of the thread, any opinions on the review?
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They take awful screenshots.
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Oh stop cheer-leading already, and actually think for once.
 
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"Oh no! Someone agreed with someone I disagree with! And they are showing it openly! How terrible! Let's tell them they are a person who can't think, unlike me!"
 
 
How is Carbine making transitioning into raiding easier in F2P? This is an actual question, you see, because I can't think.
 
 
 
Just as an exercise, enumarte all the options they have, and then the one option they don't have.
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For the OP's post, I'm glad WS's gettin some good and fair reviews this close to F2P  :) (and I also agree on the cupcakey screenshots)...and yes! Welcome to WildStar! I hope you enjoy your stay ^.^
 
As for the lack of casual-friendly raid content...they're nerfing attunement hard to make it more accessible to everyone (and iirc, the EG max is somethin like 250 or somethin now); the Dungeons that PuGs seemed to struggle so hard against have been reported as easier on the PTR; the world bosses are being tuned to be a form of "casual" raid content, along with having pre-GA purple gear as loot (and pets n thangs, too); also...yeah, plenty of 2-day raiding guilds are makin it just fine through the raids, even with shorter raiding hours.
 
True, some players have pushed for a queue-able raid, or at least 10 man raid sizes, but the majority of other players seem to be opposed to these ideas (myself among the anti-LFRers...I don't care about the 10man mode, really). So it's not just the Devs deciding things. We've already raised and voiced our opinions on this multiple times over the past year+ and even had Dev responses (I don't remember which post, but I do recall one with a response that, while multiple 10m-20m modes weren't in the works, they were possibly open to the idea of Flex raids).
 
My last point: saying end-game players have nothing to do except raid and no feasible way into the raiding scene is a load of tarnished shinies. I dropped out of our guild's raid group after burning out from months of 3-day raiding, from what for me was 9pm til midnight (and sometimes longer). Do I raid anymore? No. Do I still enjoy the game? Definitely. There's Dungeons, Adventures, Shiphands, RP, Housing, PvP, Community Events, Alts...there is plenty to do.
 
How come every post I see that has Yasfan in it turns into a gigantic argument about how nothing is ever good enough and everything is too #hardcore?
			
				
	Edited September 20, 2015 by Kavi	
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Since Dharnell didn't answer your last point, I'll attempt to provide the answer as I understand it from his earlier posts.
 
To Dharnell, GA, Augmentors, and DS are all casual raiding content and "hard-mode" Augmentors is not. That's why he describes his own raiding guild as casual even though they're 6/9 in DS, placing them in or near the top 20 progression guilds on the server.
 
Do I have that right, Dharnell? Obviously, if I'm completely off-base, I'd appreciate the correction.	
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For the OP's post, I'm glad WS's gettin some good and fair reviews this close to F2P  :) (and I also agree on the cupcakey screenshots)...and yes! Welcome to WildStar! I hope you enjoy your stay ^.^
 
As for the lack of casual-friendly raid content...they're nerfing attunement hard to make it more accessible to everyone (and iirc, the EG max is somethin like 250 or somethin now); the Dungeons that PuGs seemed to struggle so hard against have been reported as easier on the PTR; the world bosses are being tuned to be a form of "casual" raid content, along with having pre-GA purple gear as loot (and pets n thangs, too); also...yeah, plenty of 2-day raiding guilds are makin it just fine through the raids, even with shorter raiding hours.
 
True, some players have pushed for a queue-able raid, or at least 10 man raid sizes, but the majority of other players seem to be opposed to these ideas (myself among the anti-LFRers...I don't care about the 10man mode, really). So it's not just the Devs deciding things. We've already raised and voiced our opinions on this multiple times over the past year+ and even had Dev responses (I don't remember which post, but I do recall one with a response that, while multiple 10m-20m modes weren't in the works, they were possibly open to the idea of Flex raids).
 
My last point: saying end-game players have nothing to do except raid and no feasible way into the raiding scene is a load of tarnished shinies. I dropped out of our guild's raid group after burning out from months of 3-day raiding, from what for me was 9pm til midnight (and sometimes longer). Do I raid anymore? No. Do I still enjoy the game? Definitely. There's Dungeons, Adventures, Shiphands, RP, Housing, PvP, Community Events, Alts...there is plenty to do.
 
How come every post I see that has Yasfan in it turns into a gigantic argument about how nothing is ever good enough and everything is too #hardcore?
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Since Dharnell didn't answer your last point, I'll attempt to provide the answer as I understand it from his earlier posts.
 
To Dharnell, GA, Augmentors, and DS are all casual raiding content and "hard-mode" Augmentors is not. That's why he describes his own raiding guild as casual even though they're 6/9 in DS, placing them in or near the top 20 progression guilds on the server.
 
Do I have that right, Dharnell? Obviously, if I'm completely off-base, I'd appreciate the correction.
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I tried to read the review . . . but I just couldn't stomach finishing it. I'm glad they gave WS a positive rating. I just kinda gave up after they said they improved sprint and described the factions. Just makes me sad how terrible of a job Carbine made with trying to make the Dominion appealing.
 
As for the raiding discussion, I actually believe GA would be considered casual content because it can be cleared in a day with a pug. And there are pugs going on all the time. I even know one player who got into a raid with shiphand blues, but she is an exception to the rule. She's just a really skilled player and this was an alt. As long as she didn't die, the group she was with didn't care too much about her gear.
 
Based on what I know about the System Daemons fight, I don't feel DS would be considered casual content. I mean, you could do DS on a casual raid schedule, but I feel it takes a more hardcore mindset to get through that. As for Augmentors, I'm going to still consider that more hardcore at the moment simply because I rarely hear about anyone attempting it. Obviously, others have gotten through it but it's still not that popular right now.	
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I tried to read the review . . . but I just couldn't stomach finishing it. I'm glad they gave WS a positive rating. I just kinda gave up after they said they improved sprint and described the factions. Just makes me sad how terrible of a job Carbine made with trying to make the Dominion appealing.
 
As for the raiding discussion, I actually believe GA would be considered casual content because it can be cleared in a day with a pug. And there are pugs going on all the time. I even know one player who got into a raid with shiphand blues, but she is an exception to the rule. She's just a really skilled player and this was an alt. As long as she didn't die, the group she was with didn't care too much about her gear.
 
Based on what I know about the System Daemons fight, I don't feel DS would be considered casual content. I mean, you could do DS on a casual raid schedule, but I feel it takes a more hardcore mindset to get through that. As for Augmentors, I'm going to still consider that more hardcore at the moment simply because I rarely hear about anyone attempting it. Obviously, others have gotten through it but it's still not that popular right now.
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Thanks for the kind welcomes! 
 
secondly, I have no idea what you guys are arguing yet considering I'm only level 27 on the live servers. and I'm have a blast. 
 
Are you guys arguing about Hardcore content and casual content for end game? 
 
correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they nerf dungeons and stuff for people who complained? 
 
In all honesty , 1. everyone has their own perspective on hardcore and 2. there will always be complainants.  "Too hard." *gets nerfed* "dammit, too easy!"  (Just an example.)
 
But again Idk how Endgame is in this game. 	
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Thanks for the kind welcomes! 
 
secondly, I have no idea what you guys are arguing yet considering I'm only level 27 on the live servers. and I'm have a blast. 
 
Are you guys arguing about Hardcore content and casual content for end game? 
 
correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they nerf dungeons and stuff for people who complained? 
 
In all honesty , 1. everyone has their own perspective on hardcore and 2. there will always be complainants.  "Too hard." *gets nerfed* "dammit, too easy!"  (Just an example.)
 
But again Idk how Endgame is in this game. 
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How did they fail to make the Dominion more appealing? They even made them less cartoonishly evil on the Arkship. For example none of the tazering at the start and by making Mondo Zax seem less sadistic/uncaring, by changing his dialogue.
 
Plus, as I said in the Dominion Population thread, it's a bit pre-mature to start claiming that they've failed, when F2P hasn't even launched. For all you know that change could have been all that was needed.
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			Casual raiders can clear this content. Unless you believe playing on a schedule is "hardcore". It just takes us longer than the harcore.	
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I am glad that they changed the Arkship tutorials. I really am. But the way the reviewer described Exiles vs Dominion kinda made me feel that the perspective hasn't changed much.
 
To be honest, I am not even thinking about what's going to happen in f2p that much. I am more basing this on one person's perspective who played the closed beta. 
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Absolutely right, crazya, we're arguing about how much the endgame progression is "hardcore". As you rightly note, this word doesn't mean the same thing to different people, making much of the discussion revolve around things like "are you really in a casual raiding guild if you're in one of the top 20 progression raiding guilds on your server?"
For what it's worth, at Level 27 I was also very much enjoying the leveling game, and I'm glad to hear that new players coming in recently also are finding it to be really great!
 
 
Nevertheless, the real concern is how people will respond to the endgame and whether they will continue to love the game and stay with it in sufficient numbers once they get there and experience the relatively rapid progression available prior to the content that was always intended to appeal to "hardcore players" by deliberate design. the reality is that none of us know, and time will tell, regardless of whether we call that reality "prudent caution" or "fear-mongering".
 
Welcome to the game! I'll be interested to hear your views about the endgame once you reach it, if you're willing to come back and share your thoughts on it.	
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Absolutely right, crazya, we're arguing about how much the endgame progression is "hardcore". As you rightly note, this word doesn't mean the same thing to different people, making much of the discussion revolve around things like "are you really in a casual raiding guild if you're in one of the top 20 progression raiding guilds on your server?"
For what it's worth, at Level 27 I was also very much enjoying the leveling game, and I'm glad to hear that new players coming in recently also are finding it to be really great!
 
 
Nevertheless, the real concern is how people will respond to the endgame and whether they will continue to love the game and stay with it in sufficient numbers once they get there and experience the relatively rapid progression available prior to the content that was always intended to appeal to "hardcore players" by deliberate design. the reality is that none of us know, and time will tell, regardless of whether we call that reality "prudent caution" or "fear-mongering".
 
Welcome to the game! I'll be interested to hear your views about the endgame once you reach it, if you're willing to come back and share your thoughts on it.
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Good news for you, then--I have been told the raids here are awesome! I hope you enjoy them, looking forward to hearing about it from someone experiencing it for the first time!
 
And like you, I hope a lot of people do enjoy the game and stay with it this time around.	
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Absolutely right, crazya, we're arguing about how much the endgame progression is "hardcore". As you rightly note, this word doesn't mean the same thing to different people, making much of the discussion revolve around things like "are you really in a casual raiding guild if you're in one of the top 20 progression raiding guilds on your server?"
For what it's worth, at Level 27 I was also very much enjoying the leveling game, and I'm glad to hear that new players coming in recently also are finding it to be really great!
 
 
Nevertheless, the real concern is how people will respond to the endgame and whether they will continue to love the game and stay with it in sufficient numbers once they get there and experience the relatively rapid progression available prior to the content that was always intended to appeal to "hardcore players" by deliberate design. the reality is that none of us know, and time will tell, regardless of whether we call that reality "prudent caution" or "fear-mongering".
 
Welcome to the game! I'll be interested to hear your views about the endgame once you reach it, if you're willing to come back and share your thoughts on it.
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Sooo... Should I infer from your comment that you believe the "casual raider" has lots of options here, like the ability to enter raid queues or less challenging raids than the ones from launch, Dharnell?
 
And more to the topic of the thread, any opinions on the review?
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I'd put GA into a more casual category as getting gear to do that content has gotten significantly easier (and easier still with the F2P update). Datascape however is decidedly NOT casual. Any guild going into Datascape and planning to defeat System Daemons has to be consistently fielding 20 man groups with full il65 gear (better if it's il68), and has to be completely on top of it's game due to the complex mechanics. I have no clue what the other bosses are in DS, but getting progression in DS is no joke and isn't something an average player is going to be capable of.
 
 
On the topic, I'm glad they gave Wildstar a positive review. I would have preferred something that was a little more critical of the business model, for good or ill, but I'll take any positive press.  I'm much more curious what a popular media outlet would have to say though. What's IGN, MOP, or even Polygon going to say about it?	
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Frost didn't make them restrict almost half of their new runesets to iLevel 120--Datascape gear only. 
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This whole thing is funny.
 
A year and a bit later, the original release crashed and burned.
 
And still everything is leading and funneling into structured schedule needed raiding AND there is still arguments about what constitutes hardcore, if there is enough casual content ect.
It is the EXACT argument as last time!
 
I honestly truely think this community or carbine is insane. And i dont mean that in a mean way i mean the philosophical view point of insanity of "Keep doing what you are doing and expecting different results."
 
edit- i want to stress im not being mean spirited here. Just as an ex players wanting to come back view. having every argument the exact same as the last time REALLY doesnt speak well for things. Its worrying.
			
				
	Edited September 21, 2015 by nlPezz	
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Actually, Dharnell, it's not out of 33. Those are just the raiding guilds to down SD and get on the DS roster.
 
Raiding guilds don't count unless they're not only in DS but past SD? Talk about deceptive, wow.
 
And artereis, the fact that you can slot iLevel 120 runes into iLevel 110 gear doesn't change much, since gear over iLevel 100 only drops in DS.
 
And yes nIPezz, that would indeed be the reason for concern.
			
				
	Edited September 21, 2015 by yasfan	
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Yep, stuff over ilevel 100 only drops in Datascape. This includes the crafting components and the BoE drops. Divine rune fragments are also only reliably gathered there. All of this will make its way down to the general server populace since it's tradeable. If a player works to get a full set of DS crafted gear, they can buy a carry from any guild that comfortably clears System Daemons and have a full set of qualifying gear in literally under 10 minutes from the imbuements. Since SD gets pretty trivial, I don't see why the price would cost eventually cost any more than a pristine key does now.
 
I'm not going to argue and say there shouldn't be other methods for progression because I fully support that. The method that's going in at launch just isn't necessarily going to be a giant obstacle.	
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Yep, stuff over ilevel 100 only drops in Datascape. This includes the crafting components and the BoE drops. Divine rune fragments are also only reliably gathered there. All of this will make its way down to the general server populace since it's tradeable. If a player works to get a full set of DS crafted gear, they can buy a carry from any guild that comfortably clears System Daemons and have a full set of qualifying gear in literally under 10 minutes from the imbuements. Since SD gets pretty trivial, I don't see why the price would cost eventually cost any more than a pristine key does now.
 
I'm not going to argue and say there shouldn't be other methods for progression because I fully support that. The method that's going in at launch just isn't necessarily going to be a giant obstacle.
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Now I too i'm curious about gearing during end game.
 
I know there were changes for crafting. is armor crafting relevant? is it worth doing and taking up? or 2 gathering tradeskillers are better	
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The reviewer could also just be thoroughly entrenched in the Exile's camp and not played the revamped Dominion. To which he/she shouldn't have included that portion, since it's clear that he's resorting to memes about them. I'm not even a big fan of the Dominion myself, and even I wouldn't call them "fanatics". Sure they have a lot who follow the church and what not, but even those people are HARDLY what I'd call fanatical.
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			I'm not a raider, and I seem to find plenty to do at endgame. I mostly PvP, but when I do PvE, the Contract system seems to keep me entertained and progressing my PvE gear set as well as running vet Dungeons. What else should there be at end game for people who don't raid? I wouldn't mind if Carbine made more dungeons/adventures and add more variety to the Contract system, but it doesn't seem like when you get to endgame you're stuck at doing nothing. 	
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			Is it possible that the publisher is paying for good reviews (in general)? That would be a valid way to advertise, wouldn't it? I ask this because every (newer) article and video I watch praise Wildstar to the stars (I even watched one where reviewer is angry on people for not playing Wildstar) but they don't really say why is it so good, it just is. None of the reviews mention any issues that are troubling Wildstar and all they do is praise it and talk about setting or something. This game is nowhere near perfect or more fun to play then any other MMO (the underpopulated servers speak for themselves). I think objective, critical review would do more good then these advertisement attempts. 	
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Is it possible that the publisher is paying for good reviews (in general)? That would be a valid way to advertise, wouldn't it?
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I have so much to learn when I'm 50.. sorta excited lol, but I'm going to take it slow + Got classwork =/ 
 
here is hoping people enjoy the game and stay during endgame. Let's hope for the best I think we all want the game to do well	
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Is it possible that the publisher is paying for good reviews (in general)?
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My first thought was that this "review" is bought.
As someone who didn't play since release I still find, over one year later, many of the bugs that were at the beginning. Besides performance, z-axis problems with skills, espcially constant ui-bugs, like not disapearing loot icons, call icons, not updating skill icons and other numbers etc.
How this could get a legit 91+% is a mystery.
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And which skills are "bugged" on the Z-Axis?
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I presume he's talking about the fact that in, say, underwater combat skills often don't hit if the mob is too far up or down, despite being in the targeting thingie. Also happens if you jump high on, say, "they came from fragment zero". You have enemies in the targeting bar, but you won't hit because you're too high up. That's not so much a bug as a problem with the way targeting in Wildstar works, though. Hard to do three dimensional combat, when your targeting zone is two-dimensional.
 
Generally I'd wish people would stop with the whole "omg, this review has been bough!!1" stuff if there's no evidence to support it. Never explain with malice, what you can explain with stupidity - or, in this case, laziness. The review isn't really all that in depth, so it's very likely the person doing it just played the game for a relatively short amount of time and based the review on that, which naturally makes the deeper issues not all that apparent.
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I can't take mmo reviews seriously when they haven't even reached max level and played veteran content. Generally reviews of betas are useless crap imho. Though there are a few youtubers I know who actually go all out and do endgame in betas.... But they tend not to do reviews and instead try to provide information on the game, the systems, how it all works so people can just make up their own minds. 
 
This review is not useful. Tbh I didn't see too many problems with even the original release up until max level. Farming contracts is alright and so are shiphands, definitely an improvement on endgame. 
 
I still don't see myself playing this game seriously for a year without getting into raids. But we shall see.	
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Keep the personal insults out of it folks, this isn't the place. 
 
Lets also get it back on topic which is a discussion about the review. 	
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So... Yeah. If you don't raid, your progression is contracts, DS BoEs, and craft/carry.
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If you don't raid, your progression is 1-50 > vet shiphands > vet adventures > vet dungeons > world bosses > contracts.
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Contracts can be done once you hit 50 so I wouldn't slot it at the very end. Unless you're ordering gear by ilvl. Also if people have no interest in raiding, I doubt they'd do Vet Adventures or Dungeons.
 
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Hey, Dea ... I happen to know a leveling guild who has a bunch of newbies and the guild leader is like ... one of the nicest, most patient players around.
 
I also happen to know this little guild is not only recruiting actively, but on the look-out for potential leadership and/or strong role-models moving forward.
 
Just sayin' ... :wub:	
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Contracts can be done once you hit 50 so I wouldn't slot it at the very end. Unless you're ordering gear by ilvl. Also if people have no interest in raiding, I doubt they'd do Vet Adventures or Dungeons.
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Jeff, the problem is that the way you're ordering progression makes no sense because of the exact point John was making.
 
Contracts are both easier and more rewarding than all other progression content outside of raids except for DS BoE drops, which are the best anyone will ever do outside of raids.
 
That is the progression path of least resistance if you don't raid. 50 > Contracts > BoE DS. 100% faceroll is more rewarding than the rest of the endgame content.
 
 
 
This is not to say that there's no other stuff to do, but none of it is particularly useful along the way unless you plan to raid.
 
Hopefully it will be enough, but let's not pretend that anybody's going to be running Veteran Shiphands/Adventures/Dungeons for the progression when they can get to a better place without doing any of that stuff by farming Moodies in Deradune.	
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I can't multiquote on phone sorry. 
 
@Tex. I don't know how often I'll be playing, I'd say two days a week max due to other obligations. :) if such casualness works for you, I'm in. 
 
@slyjeff. Sadly I started Dominion and was kind of meh going over and playing exile and missing out on all my little perks I gathered over time. Mounts, dyes, outfits (back before holowardrobe)... Never got to cap on exile. Even my character from the rp server didn't get too far cause everyone moved to Dominion just as I was starting to play... And then drama. 
Point is, I'm on my Mechari for life. 
 
Tho after spending one hour with the cursed rune crafting station on ptr, I don't know if I'll ever do any 5mans. I got a headache and still don't know if I was doing it right. My gods, what a shit interface!	
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well, I would be running that stuff, because it takes time to get the gear from contracts.
 
50 > Contracts > BoE DS would take a long time to get to when there is plenty of intermediate gear to get along the way.
 
Also, the idea that people just wouldn't run dungeons is sad to me. I continually run them just because they are fun. In fact, beating Stormtalon on Vet was my singular goal back when we started. Only after that did I consider raiding- lol. And even then, it was just a silly thing to do once. I didn't actually expect to raid. Until I did it, then I kind of got hooked.
 
Funny, actually my original intent to this game was to avoid group content except with my wife. Even 5 mans I thought were probably something I wouldn't do. How things change :)
			
				
	Edited September 21, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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50 > Contracts > BoE DS would take a long time to get to when there is plenty of intermediate gear to get along the way.
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Now that PUG GA runs are a thing, I'll bet most people running dungeons would, like you, join in on a lark.
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Also, the idea that people just wouldn't run dungeons is sad to me. I continually run them just because they are fun. In fact, beating Stormtalon on Vet was my singular goal back when we started. Only after that did I consider raiding- lol. And even then, it was just a silly thing to do once. I didn't actually expect to raid. Until I did it, then I kind of got hooked.
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I actually don't like dungeons. I'll run them with guildies or for my elder gem weekly, but I'd actually just rather play solo or do random silly things in the game. It's weird, I like raiding (though kinda scared to PUG on an alt) but I still don't like dungeons.
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 In all fairness raiding is a big part of the mmo experience whether one chooses to raid or not.. ive barely raided in this game which was my choice ive just not had the patience in the last couple of years to deal with 20 plus players arguing over mechanics. The gear upgrading is designed intentionally to get more raiders through the content that otherwise wouldn't...even if that sounds politically incorrect to the more serious raider. 
 
If you really think about it all games go through this. What would wow be without raids.. or starwars or other games for the matter. WS is opening up new doors to those that aren't interested in investing the time to raid and still feel like their accomplishing a goal of sometype.. Lets face it carbine has a big ship their trying to turn around and its not practical to think it can get done instantly. If rumors are true than well probably be seeing upcoming more casual friendly raiding in the future and if done right will still keep the more serious player busy as well. When a community is polar opposites its not easy to make and design content that everyone loves.. the old saying "Can't please everyone" really takes the cake here.
 
As far as the dungeons go.. maybe it's because their not fun but maybe its because we've done them so many times were a bit desensitized to them.. which one thing this game does need is more dungeons and plenty of them with different levels of difficulty. But in time when the smoke settles well probably be seeing more that well enjoy in the future.. right now carbine has their hands full and probably with limiting man power to get the ball rolling in the new direction.	
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I think at this point, it's clear that there's really not any time for substantive changes prior to F2P launch. There's little point in arguing about how the last year could've been spent--it is what it is, for better or for worse.
 
 
As for the future, frankly that will depend a lot on how effectively the game's F2P launch attracts new players vs retains veteran players and which demographics show up, settle in, and generate revenue.	
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What do you not enjoy?
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wait am i reading this right? the best way to gear up as a non schedule commited raider is to gold grind and buy gear from raiders?
 
so literally nothing has changed, and the options that were there , crafting, vet ship hands ect, are all brick walls now?
 
im not asking sarcastically is that true?
 
edit- do contracts still offer a gearing path ? or has the i levels of that been reduced as well?
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the reason that i resubbed is because of how awesome the beta was. By comparing Live Last year to Live this year it to is also very good and a ton of improvements (that i didn't know of before this CBT). The beta was soooo good that i took a crap shoot on resubbing just weeks before wildstar goes F2P and in this market that is really really crazy. 
 
Carbine really does have a gem that they've made and polished and re-polished and then they polished it again and this poops all over the granddaddy MMO that will not be named. I mean I've never thought any F2P MMO did anything particularly better than the granddaddy but this (wildstar) DOES in almost every way (except UI and some of the crafting as well still needs to be improved). 
 
There are very few flaws in the game but there are flaws still. 
 
The game is probably around a 9.1 for sure on the low end but personally I would say the rating of 9.1 is just a low of a good score. The game is more closer to a 9.5 or higher and basically what I'm saying is that as of right now Wildstar is flat out the BEST MMO ON THE MARKET PERIOD! 	
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Actually, Wongnim, most of that information is rendered obsolete by the changes coming in the next drop.
 
Contracts will continue to exist and will reward comparably to before. A bit better, in fact, because raid-level gear is being collapsed from three tiers to two. Contract gear, at least last time I checked, is in the higher tier (iLevel 100) but purple grade.
 
Crafted Epochos/Adventus/Archivos gear made prior to the transition is all being converted to tokens that can be redeemed post-transition for new gear. The details of this gear won't be clear until they patch in the latest update.
 
For Mastercrafted gear after F2P, the gear will go up to iLevel 110 but the power of this gear will be locked behind imbuements that require you to raid to unlock that level of power.
 
BoE DS gear will still be available and will remain the best gear by far that can be obtained outside of raids.
 
And of course there's a bunch of much weaker trash gear you can get in Veteran Shiphands, Veteran Adventures, Veteran Dungeons, and from World bosses. None of this gear is remotely comparable to Contract gear or BoE DS gear, nor does it require as little skill to obtain through grinding or plat, but it can nevertheless be obtained in the interim to accelerate your grinding/plat collecting.
			
				
	Edited September 22, 2015 by yasfan	
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To Dharnell, GA, Augmentors, and DS are all casual raiding content and "hard-mode" Augmentors is not. That's why he describes his own raiding guild as casual even though they're 6/9 in DS, placing them in or near the top 20 progression guilds on the server.
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It doesn't matter how much an mmorpg company tries to make raids accessible. the problem is and will always be the players. in every single mmorpg game with raiding, people who are forced to pug to raid have to deal with the overwhelming majority of those pugs only wanting geared people that have already cleared the content to do the content.
 
this elitist mentality is further fostered the more difficult developers make the content.
 
regardless of whether or not you like the game, WoW's tiered raiding approach is the only one proven to actually work for everyone. those that are forced to pug for whatever reason have the raid queue to get initially geared, which may allow them to meet people and perhaps find a group that pays during their playtimes.
 
here, and in other games without that system you really are at the mercy of other players and their attitudes.
 
your opinion is irrelevant on the matter - the proof is right there.
 
as for reviews of mmorpgs from websites - all are trash unless they are from people who play all aspects of the game BEFORE reviewing. to post a review a week before f2p lands is just an advertisement-revenue grab, an attempt to increase the clickies to their obscure website. nobody in mainstream game journalism properly reviews mmorpgs. not anymore.	
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It doesn't matter how much an mmorpg company tries to make raids accessible. the problem is and will always be the players. in every single mmorpg game with raiding, people who are forced to pug to raid have to deal with the overwhelming majority of those pugs only wanting geared people that have already cleared the content to do the content.
 
this elitist mentality is further fostered the more difficult developers make the content.
 
regardless of whether or not you like the game, WoW's tiered raiding approach is the only one proven to actually work for everyone. those that are forced to pug for whatever reason have the raid queue to get initially geared, which may allow them to meet people and perhaps find a group that pays during their playtimes.
 
here, and in other games without that system you really are at the mercy of other players and their attitudes.
 
your opinion is irrelevant on the matter - the proof is right there.
 
as for reviews of mmorpgs from websites - all are trash unless they are from people who play all aspects of the game BEFORE reviewing. to post a review a week before f2p lands is just an advertisement-revenue grab, an attempt to increase the clickies to their obscure website. nobody in mainstream game journalism properly reviews mmorpgs. not anymore.
 
 
as a Mythic Raider I can tell you that WoD (raid wise) was really good, I can't stress how good those Raids were. Having said that; people still bailed on that xpac and it wasn't just casual players. 
 
If you haven't been playing the granddaddy then I'll let you in on a big secret. This xpac (WOD) was the biggest loss in High-End Progression Raiding Since Vanilla/BC. I'm not making that up either. We saw Guilds who were raiding Hardmode Progression DIE in WOD. 
 
Does the difficulty of LFR or no longer having number requirements make those raids more accessible? Yes, most certainly but on the low end of progression (Heroic Raids actually weren't awful by any means) the difficulty was just TOO LOW. People still need to feel like they earned it but without being punished and the granddaddy still hasn't figured out how to get those lower tiered players that feeling.
 
We need to earn it and be challenged but it can't be insanely easy (LFR) or insanely Hard, a raid boss should never feel impossible.
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This last expansion for WoW had the shortest lifespan of any. I mean, the expansion only came out in 2014 and it's last raid came out a couple months ago and in my opinion this is due to specifically catering to those that were blowing through mythic, even though the overwhelming majority of people who were actually raiding hardly got through heroic at each tier before the new one came out.
 
This also had the added effect of demoralizing more casual guilds who only raid 1-3 nights a week. the pressure to clear mythic of a current tier before the next was greater in this expansion than any previous, and many people quit outright rather than deal with virtual mirror of social or economic pressures that they deal with outside of the game.
			
				
	Edited September 22, 2015 by Dixa1	
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This last expansion for WoW had the shortest lifespan of any. I mean, the expansion only came out in 2014 and it's last raid came out a couple months ago and in my opinion this is due to specifically catering to those that were blowing through mythic, even though the overwhelming majority of people who were actually raiding hardly got through heroic at each tier before the new one came out.
 
This also had the added effect of demoralizing more casual guilds who only raid 1-3 nights a week. the pressure to clear mythic of a current tier before the next was greater in this expansion than any previous, and many people quit outright rather than deal with virtual mirror of social or economic pressures that they deal with outside of the game.
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Since Dharnell didn't answer your last point, I'll attempt to provide the answer as I understand it from his earlier posts.
 
To Dharnell, GA, Augmentors, and DS are all casual raiding content and "hard-mode" Augmentors is not. That's why he describes his own raiding guild as casual even though they're 6/9 in DS, placing them in or near the top 20 progression guilds on the server.
 
Do I have that right, Dharnell? Obviously, if I'm completely off-base, I'd appreciate the correction.
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All of them are casual if you don't play them hardcore. It's just that Hard Mode augmentors seems "hardcore" because the only guilds with time to do it instead of progressing on GA or DS are the guilds who play a lot and have finished DS. Everyone else is doing GA or DS still because that's where their limited raid time is best spent. As with all things casual vs hardcore it's more a difference of time devoted to the game than anything else.
 
Once the majority of guilds have cleared DS in between now and whenever the new tier comes out then they'll start fooling around with hm augmentors and it won't seem "hardcore" anymore.
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To be fair, I've done a few bosses in GA and... honestly they were pretty easy. >_>; And we were low-manning it. So I'd definitely put GA into "casual" territory already in terms of difficulty.
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Wot. WoD was basically a filler expansion to tide everyone over to Legion, no matter how you look at it. Their goal was to supposedly make a new Xpac every year, and thus they had a shorter raid year overall. Blizz couldn't make an xpac a year because there just wouldn't be enough time, and anything said by Blizz is basically to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. That's why there were only two tiers this xpac, they were anticipating releasing a new xpac shorther into it's lifespan than WoD dropped in MoP's lifespan, causing SoO to last something like 14 months. It's still likely that Legion will be released towards the summer of next year anyhow.
 
As for demoralizing casual guilds; I saw plenty weekend only guilds progressing farther in Mythic than some 3 or 4 nights a week guilds because they played better and smarter. The most hardcore element outside of ONE difficulty of four was the rep grinding. I think they tried to cater a little too much to the players who wanted a more vanilla experience and in turn kind of alienated the casual crowd a little more. Couple that with the fact that WoD had literally no real content outside of raids for most of the Xpac except sitting in your Facebook style garrison. Sure, there was Timewalking and Mythic dungeons, but that was released late into the cycle.
 
WoD was a failure, but it wasn't due to the raids. If anything, the WoD raids (except Highmaul maybe) were probably the only good thing about the Xpac. I know this easily plays into everyone's "Raids are bad and they shouldn't be the focus of endgame" argument because it seems like this was all they cared about. If anything, most WoW players despise LFR, but I guess a lot of people would just call those players "elitist scumbags". Admittedly, a lot of people hate it because there isn't even a slight presence of difficulty in it. There was also the Garrison fiasco, you basically afked in there instead of doing any real world content. Not having flying basically pissed 95% of the playerbase off. I saw more "I'm Leaving" threads for that reason than anything. They also homogenized all of the classes and watered down their gameplay to "simplify" the game. Crafting was bad, gem removal was bad. Professions were pointless for the most part. It wasn't that they focused on raiding, it was that the rest of the content they offered was so poor raiding ended up being the only aspect of the game left.
 
There are far too many raiding naysayers on this forum, and It's disheartening to me to see so many people hate some of the most interesting, complex, and creative content of the game. I understand that we all want Wildstar to succeed and continue to be enjoyable for years to come; but turning raid content into a costume hunt would probably cause some players to ignore it completely, as stupid as some may find that. I raid for the progression, the thrill of the kill. The knowledge that I'm getting stronger and my character is advancing. Without that, even the kill would feel pointless because I'm not getting anything of value. Maybe some would enjoy raiding solely for their costumes, but I wouldn't and I'm sure there would be others as well.
 
I understand solo players want to progress too, but ruining a portion of content for your needs isn't fun for those of us who want to feel that thrill, feel that rush. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same power and gear that people who put in the time and effort for get while doing content that won't likely ever measure to the same difficulty or time commitment. There are other games for that. I understand again that people want to enjoy the game they play and want to enjoy. I'm extremely worried about the future of raiding in Wildstar, and I really hope it stays the same as it is now.
 
I'm incredibly sorry for flying so far off topic with this reply, but this has been boiling up inside of me for weeks and I finally just needed to get it out there, no matter how badly written it is; I don't have a way with words like other people due. I'm sure there's some backtracking and counterpoints that I may have unknowingly made, or at least acted parallel to other statements. I know there are a few forum goers who are just going to love to pick this apart, tell me how wrong I am, and bash with without actually throwing any insults. The fact of the matter is: I don't care what they say. They have their thoughts and opinions, and I have mine. However, that's not to say I'm not going to enjoy how much they do so.
 
As for something to keep on topic before I undoubtedly get hit with a warning/infraction or ban hammer: The review is void as far as I'm aware. F2P hasn't been released, and they aren't reviewing it based on all of the content. We'll have to wait and see come the weeks after F2P for the true reviews. Besides, true player reviews are all that matters. I don't really care about outside sources that kind of tap into each MMO just to get a baselines for everyone else to look at, without actually trying it themselves.
 
 
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I would only ask if when you did the few bossee in GA if you did it with groups that already had knowledge of the fights and better-than-dungeon gear?
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It was a group that was still working on progressing with X-89 and only recently killed Kuralak, so while some folk may have had contract gear and a few pieces from Kuralak, it wasn't like they were overgeared or anything. But that's not really related to what I meant by "easy", as the group still wiped quite a lot. I just didn't have any issue with the mechanics personally. Watched some videos beforehand and had it figured out in a pull. It was strangely relaxing, even, as I never felt any of the usual intense (positive) pressure I typically get while raiding. Just kinda dodged the red and healed! They seemed on-par - in terms of complexity of mechanics - with typical FFXIV bosses, which I also found fairly easy (personally). xD I'm sure it gets harder as you go through the raid, though - at least I'd hope!
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			Can someone tell me if the new crafting will be Best in slot? or I'm lost on whats going on with crafting ;p or is it all Raid gear progression? Just curious	
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All the world bosses are being reworked into casual raids for Drop 6. That's a pretty good start.
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It doesn't matter how much an mmorpg company tries to make raids accessible. the problem is and will always be the players. in every single mmorpg game with raiding, people who are forced to pug to raid have to deal with the overwhelming majority of those pugs only wanting geared people that have already cleared the content to do the content.
 
this elitist mentality is further fostered the more difficult developers make the content.
 
regardless of whether or not you like the game, WoW's tiered raiding approach is the only one proven to actually work for everyone. those that are forced to pug for whatever reason have the raid queue to get initially geared, which may allow them to meet people and perhaps find a group that pays during their playtimes.
 
here, and in other games without that system you really are at the mercy of other players and their attitudes.
 
your opinion is irrelevant on the matter - the proof is right there.
 
as for reviews of mmorpgs from websites - all are trash unless they are from people who play all aspects of the game BEFORE reviewing. to post a review a week before f2p lands is just an advertisement-revenue grab, an attempt to increase the clickies to their obscure website. nobody in mainstream game journalism properly reviews mmorpgs. not anymore.
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TBH i dont have the feeling fighting a world boss as a REAL raid boss, Real bosses are much more exciting
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To answer your question, crazya, crafted gear cannot be BiS, as a deliberate design choice. The highest tiers of crafting create gear that has its power unlocked by completing tasks within the raid instances, but even at full power it is intended to be "filler" gear that is replaced by BoP drops and tokens obtained late in the raids.
 
And to keep this on topic, of course none of that information was in the review because the review didn't touch on the endgame.	
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To answer your question, crazya, crafted gear cannot be BiS, as a deliberate design choice. The highest tiers of crafting create gear that has its power unlocked by completing tasks within the raid instances, but even at full power it is intended to be "filler" gear that is replaced by BoP drops and tokens obtained late in the raids.
 
And to keep this on topic, of course none of that information was in the review because the review didn't touch on the endgame.
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Quote fxn still not working, this is to crazya: I think the gear tradeskills--Armorer, Outfitter, Tailor, Weaponsmith--probably won't be worth it unless you raid. Too many materials are raid-locked, as are the items crafted. If you DO raid, it might be more worthwhile.
 
Other than those professions, Technologist and Architect have always been good for resellable items. Not sure that Technologist will remain so with the most valuable crafts (fluxes) being removed, but consumables are always in demand as well.	
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Quote fxn still not working, this is to crazya: I think the gear tradeskills--Armorer, Outfitter, Tailor, Weaponsmith--probably won't be worth it unless you raid. Too many materials are raid-locked, as are the items crafted. If you DO raid, it might be more worthwhile.
 
Other than those professions, Technologist and Architect have always been good for resellable items. Not sure that Technologist will remain so with the most valuable crafts (fluxes) being removed, but consumables are always in demand as well.
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Actually, Dharnell, it's not out of 33. Those are just the raiding guilds to down SD and get on the DS roster.
 
Raiding guilds don't count unless they're not only in DS but past SD? Talk about deceptive, wow.
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			I don't understand why anyone would be anything but glad that the game was getting a positive review.	
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I don't understand why anyone would be anything but glad that the game was getting a positive review.
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It should have been obvious to anyone who has been paying attention that I was strictly talking about DS guilds. Not all guilds period. Especially since I didn't even mention GA guilds, because the basis of my argument is about my guild being a casual DS guild. Just because (hypothetically speaking) I don't say "non-raiders exist" doesn't mean that I believe "you don't count unless you raid". By your logic, it does.
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The basis of your argument leading up to this post was that being in the top 20 raiding guilds on Entity wasn't a sign of being a very dedicated raiding guilds because there were only 33 DS raiding guilds, which ignores that there's a lot of guilds that haven't downed SD to get onto the DS progression rankings at all, and even more still in GA. This one isn't about raiders vs. non-raiders at all, chum. You excluded all non-DS, post SD raiders from your tally in your effort to prove how casual you are. You're welcome to do that if you want, but I'm not obliged to accept your definition or go along with it.
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Thanks for your feedback regarding the review. If you'd like to continue the end game / raid / gear debates, there are threads already created for those in their appropriate forums. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
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