103602-the-devs-are-listening

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This has basicially been a motto for Wildstar, and its a damn good motto.  Its honestly the biggest factor that sold me on this game.  I love the wildstar weeklys and actually knowing the personalities of all the devs (Frost, Handsome Kevin, Mike Donatelli,Scott Hafner, Brian Berke, Philip Chan, Fatir Ahmad, Megan Starks, Craig Turner, Brett Scheinert, Jon Wiesman, Hugh Shelton) Sorry if I left anyone out. But knowing the people behind the game makes the game that much more personal.  
 
Now I digress.  I posted earlier about us working toward becoming a less toxic community.  It does bother me a lot whenever a dev tries to post something on the forums or reddit (50x worse) and everyone rips there heads off for not having all of the answers.  And this is something that we as a community need to work on.  If a dev tries to explain whats being worked on, lets try to have rational conversations about it, myself included of course.
 
That being said, I feel like there would be a lot less rage if we were kept in the loop more.  The devs are listening is great and all, but when we were sold on this slogan, we were also hope that you would respond to us every once and awhile.  Keep us updated on whats in the works, let us know you aknowledge bugs and are working on it, or just call a troll a cupcake here and there.  Let us know that you are out there, it helps us feel like any of our constructive (well sometimes its constructive) critisim or suggestions are being heard.  This is after all the motto of Wildstar.  
 
I know you guys are busy, and I know whenever you try to respond to us we can sometimes be a bit harsh, but hey were working on it!!  Lets be friends again Carbine.  <3
 
- LoanWolf	
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			The person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it! 	
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			O and I forgot to add.  I need to call you out @ThaCheez.   Cmon Tony, you're the community manager and haven't posted to the forums in over a week :(.  You're better then that.  Deep down nothing but <3, just wish you guys would have more of an active pressence.  	
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If you have spent any time on the WoW forums, as long as they have existed, the devs and CMs have been utterly abused by the players, to the point where at least one CM famously blew up and lost/quit his job over them.
 
The forums are a dangerous game for the developers because if they say something that turns out not to be true later the player base will never let them forget it.
 
They have to be careful what they say and when they say it, because their words could just as easily calm people's worries as they could make everybody angry. That's all.	
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If you have spent any time on the WoW forums, as long as they have existed, the devs and CMs have been utterly abused by the players, to the point where at least one CM famously blew up and lost/quit his job over them.
 
The forums are a dangerous game for the developers because if they say something that turns out not to be true later the player base will never let them forget it.
 
They have to be careful what they say and when they say it, because their words could just as easily calm people's worries as they could make everybody angry. That's all.
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Sometimes I think they are just doing selective hearing. And they are so damn silent about everything, it's almost as worse than how Blizzard is silent when something goes wrong or about the issues.
 
I don't care for the bugs, I don't care for the glitches and the issues. I just don't want to be held in the dark. We don't even know when Sabotage will go Live, except a "somewhere this week" and it's something I and many others, especially the whole PvP community, are waiting for!
 
True that about the toxic community though. But they just have to let those toxic comments shift through them. Making a mistake is always possible.	
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The person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it! 
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Sometimes I think they are just doing selective hearing. And they are so damn silent about everything, it's almost as worse than how Blizzard is silent when something goes wrong or about the issues.
 
I don't care for the bugs, I don't care for the glitches and the issues. I just don't want to be held in the dark. We don't even know when Sabotage will go Live, except a "somewhere this week" and it's something I and many others, especially the whole PvP community, are waiting for!
 
True that about the toxic community though.
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			Unfortunately, when you crap on your' own motto, and screw the game over little by little, yeah you are gona get your' head ripped off.	
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Unfortunately, when you crap on your' own motto, and screw the game over little by little, yeah you are gona get your' head ripped off.
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I'm still willing to chalk it up to growing pains as this is a new company.  But I do hope both our attitudes and the communication improves or this could be something that snowballs.
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DEV " we are aware of the problem and have a team working on it " we will let you know when we have a fix "
Does not matter if you have 1 or 1,000 posts after that, it will not change anything!
 
The main problem is.....some players speak louder than they can hear	
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			They said they were listening not that they were communicating.  :D	
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They said they were listening not that they were communicating.  :D
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DEV " we are aware of the problem and have a team working on it " we will let you know when we have a fix "
Does not matter if you have 1 or 1,000 posts after that, it will not change anything!
 
The main problem is.....some players speak louder than they can hear
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They never said they cared either.
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Thats unfair, of course they do.  
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Oh cool now it's my turn to tell a joke.
 
Knock! Knock!	
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This has basicially been a motto for Wildstar, and its a damn good motto. 
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While it's great that they come out and do Q&A's for everyone, sometimes the unpracticed, bad spin they use to not-answer questions is terrible.
 
These people are not politicians and it's painfully obvious at times how they are trying to spin up their penalizing/gating design as a fun, good thing. . Sure they gotta dodge the question, but it makes them seem to take us for idiots.
 
I think that's where some of the "blowing up" comes from. That and people in an anonymous online world can be complete cupcake bags.	
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While it's great that they come out and do Q&A's for everyone, sometimes the unpracticed, bad spin they use to not-answer questions is terrible.
 
These people are not politicians and it's painfully obvious at times how they are trying to spin up their penalizing/gating design as a fun, good thing. . Sure they gotta dodge the question, but it makes them seem to take us for idiots.
 
I think that's where some of the "blowing up" comes from. That and people in an anonymous online world can be complete cupcake bags.
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The person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it! 
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			They're listening.  And they're laughing at your salty tears.	
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An active itemization thread with J-Tal, an active class thread for each individual class started by the class lead. there was clear and constant communication before the loot change about what was going to happen. Questions addressed every Tuesday and Thursday by a specific dev and Frost (producer).
 
Finally, the tagline is listening, not 'The devs are going to respond to every single hateful thing said on a forum'.
 
Did anyone ever watch the show 'The Guild' with Felicia Day? They had a pretty funny season where the game maker became an indecisive wreck because he read every single hateful comment and was afraid to do anything in fear of getting more hateful comments. 	
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I agree if they didn't literally sell this concept.  
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I still haven't seen Tony Rey, Cougar, and Chillia dancing to caramelldansen with Aurin ears on so I am not sure they're listening.
 
Why hasn't this happened yet?	
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The person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it! 
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Sounds like a couple of logical fallacies are at play here ;)
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You're a logical fallacy.
 
OOOO sick burn!
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OOOOOO sick use of the tu quoque fallacy!
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I don't know what that means!
 
I'll just take it you're agreeing we me and calling me awesome.
 
Woo!
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I still haven't seen Tony Rey, Cougar, and Chillia dancing to caramelldansen with Aurin ears on so I am not sure they're listening.
 
Why hasn't this happened yet?
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You know, you're already on the internet, and allowed to search for things :)
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
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Tweet that to Tony Rey, that would make a great live stream.
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Listening doesn't = paying attention or consumer interaction 
 
It reminds me of the South Park BP joke "We're sorry"	
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I don't know what that means!
 
I'll just take it you're agreeing we me and calling me awesome.
 
Woo!
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Break it down for me in single syllable werds.
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Person 1: "You're stupid so I don't have to listen to you!" 
Person 2: "No, you're stupid so I don't have to listen to you!"  <----- tu quoque ("you too!") fallacy
 
Also, person 1 is engaging in an ad hominem fallacy ;)
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 "We're sorry"
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But Stupid has 2 syllables.
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I keep saying this, but I can't tweet, Dunno how.
 
Start a thing #TonyReyAurinDance
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Sorry.
 
Person 1: "You're dumb!" etc.
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You switched back to your old avatar?
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Here's the main thing about whether the devs are listening/communicating 'enough' The fact that they use different kinds of media is a double edged sword. They're out there in a lot of different places, but if you don't follow all of them, you don't get the full picture.I use the forums, and I use Twitter. Because of that, I'm automatically missing as much as 50% of their communications (assuming all things are equal) because I don't like Reddit, and I don't like sitting through twitch-casts. So if I were to judge the amount of dev communication solely on that, my view would be skewed. As far as posts on the forum go, I'm actually going to say even with the diluted message, they post a lot here for such a small company. Even without accounting for other media, I'd say they do a good job keeping us in the loop on the forums, most of the time. They could do a better job making simultaneous announcements for contests, broadcasts, etc, but overall it's not terrible.So that begs the question, why do you (OP and those that agree) think it's not enough? Do you realistically think they should be posting daily or weekly accountings of what they're working on? Do you really for your own comfort need to know each time a bug gets fixed? There comes a point when more time is spent communicating than actually doing work, so while players who have lots of time to kill may get really worked up over a lack of response, I think they should be doing a better job calming down and being patient than expecting the devs to calm their nerves with lots of responses.Anyway there are some easy solutions to solve that dilution of the message problem I mentioned.
 
Back in CoH there were some really great dedicated players who listened to podcasts and or convention panels, and posted recaps on the official forums. Someone with the interest or inclination could earn a lot of positive points with the community by starting that with the weekly twitch.
I think it would also be great if someone who actually likes Reddit and the forums made a digest post linking dev comments made there to the people here who don't use it.
Lastly the forum/community mods talk occasionally about changes coming to the forums, but I think those statements need to be more obvious and more frequently updated.
Make sure all the current devs have valid red names (since a lot lost that status due to some bug), and make sure the Dev Tracker is picking them up correctly.
Add those Dev post tags, bring back the "Next Developer Post" links, make Dev posts obvious even when not using the tracker.
add a Moderator Tracker (because they give out important links and info often, or just make an overall better Dev Tracker that allows for filters between NA/EU/Moderators. I know a lot of the forum work relies on NCSoft web services, and it can be hard to make things happen, but changes should be happening every couple of weeks, not every couple of months.	
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The person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it! 
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			see my post "Petition for Devs" regarding a solution to the communication gap	
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To be fair, the quote is, "The Devs are Listening."  It doesn't say the Devs are talking; they're kind of busy fixing issues.
 
Still, being pedantic aside, I think it might be worth it for them to just drop in, even once a day, to talk about their game issues, their problems with our solutions, and to work with us.  Maybe not ALL day, but the soothing noise of a dev seems to calm the children in most cases.
 
Sometimes that's not the case, but a Dev talking tends to cool the temperature in any room.  The biggest problem is if we'd be mature about what we're told.  Like if they came out and gave us subscription, CREDD, and active server population numbers to tell us what the situation is, would we wail about the world ending or appreciate the information?  If they told us that something was massively complicated and hinted at why, would we be patient and wait for them to fix it right or would we lambast their incompetence?  Sometimes, they give us no details for our own good.
 
Then again, I often laud this community for being impressively civil compared to other forums I've been on.  And I think an ounce of understanding is worth a pound of silence in not spooking the sheep.  We're big kids.	
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Im kinda curious as to why traditional MMOs, and WIldstar/WoW in particular seem to foster such hostility on the forums, whereas a game like Marvel Heroes (looking past the very poor launch) and to an extent Warframe, both in game and on the forums, seems to have a very friendly and helpful community, despite crazy class(hero) imbalance and lack of content?  Granted they probably heavily moderate the forums, but still, generally people seem happy and positive about the game.  Is it just that there is a shared love of the Marvel universe (IN Marvel Heroes) across the entire scope of the playerbase to act as a common interest and Wildstar lacks such an element?  Is it the hardcore aspects of the traditional themeparks that divide the playerbase, setting up the infamous hardcore/casual fights? (gonna have to partially blame Wildstar marketing a bit for helping to foster this).
 
Heck I dont think FF14 ARR is nearly as bad as this.
 
What splits the community like we've seen happen here?	
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Im kinda curious as to why traditional MMOs, and WIldstar/WoW in particular seem to foster such hostility on the forums, whereas a game like Marvel Heroes (looking past the very poor launch) and to an extent Warframe, both in game and on the forums, seems to have a very friendly and helpful community, despite crazy class(hero) imbalance and lack of content?  Granted they probably heavily moderate the forums, but still, generally people seem happy and positive about the game.  Is it just that there is a shared love of the Marvel universe (IN Marvel Heroes) across the entire scope of the playerbase to act as a common interest and Wildstar lacks such an element?  Is it the hardcore aspects of the traditional themeparks that divide the playerbase, setting up the infamous hardcore/casual fights? (gonna have to partially blame Wildstar marketing a bit for helping to foster this).
 
Heck I dont think FF14 ARR is nearly as bad as this.
 
What splits the community like we've seen happen here?
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Im kinda curious as to why traditional MMOs, and WIldstar/WoW in particular seem to foster such hostility on the forums, whereas a game like Marvel Heroes (looking past the very poor launch) and to an extent Warframe, both in game and on the forums, seems to have a very friendly and helpful community, despite crazy class(hero) imbalance and lack of content?  Granted they probably heavily moderate the forums, but still, generally people seem happy and positive about the game.  Is it just that there is a shared love of the Marvel universe (IN Marvel Heroes) across the entire scope of the playerbase to act as a common interest and Wildstar lacks such an element?  Is it the hardcore aspects of the traditional themeparks that divide the playerbase, setting up the infamous hardcore/casual fights? (gonna have to partially blame Wildstar marketing a bit for helping to foster this).
 
Heck I dont think FF14 ARR is nearly as bad as this.
 
What splits the community like we've seen happen here?
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To be fair, the quote is, "The Devs are Listening."  It doesn't say the Devs are talking; they're kind of busy fixing issues.
 
Still, being pedantic aside, I think it might be worth it for them to just drop in, even once a day, to talk about their game issues, their problems with our solutions, and to work with us.  Maybe not ALL day, but the soothing noise of a dev seems to calm the children in most cases.
 
Sometimes that's not the case, but a Dev talking tends to cool the temperature in any room.  The biggest problem is if we'd be mature about what we're told.  Like if they came out and gave us subscription, CREDD, and active server population numbers to tell us what the situation is, would we wail about the world ending or appreciate the information?  If they told us that something was massively complicated and hinted at why, would we be patient and wait for them to fix it right or would we lambast their incompetence?  Sometimes, they give us no details for our own good.
 
Then again, I often laud this community for being impressively civil compared to other forums I've been on.  And I think an ounce of understanding is worth a pound of silence in not spooking the sheep.  We're big kids.
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I listen to my children much like the devs listen to the forums and my children much like the forums tend to say dumb shit that doesn't need to be answered.
 
 
 
that said both I and the devs seem to do a good job of answering the stuff that should and can be answered.	
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I still haven't seen Tony Rey, Cougar, and Chillia dancing to caramelldansen with Aurin ears on so I am not sure they're listening.
 
Why hasn't this happened yet?
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I think Vic makes an excellent point that a good portion of this second drop is to fix some major issues with PvP which has been discussed at great length on these forums.  That alone means they are listening.
 
Responding, however?  Yeah that may possibly need to be re-evaluated.  "Active Listening" is a key thing in the business world these days, especially with the onslaught of people WFH.  A key part of actively listening is responding and acknowledging the speaker and their statements regarding an issue.  Obviously that is impossible to do on the scale of an MMO population, but perhaps more interaction speaking to a "collective concern", if you will, would add a ton of value.
 
The biggest obstacle to date in my opinion is the high degree of defensiveness on the part of some forum goers whenever anyone expresses a concern, constructive or otherwise.  Waving the virtual flag of Nexus in the face of the disgruntled is about the equivalent of me asking my wife what is "up her arse" when she is in a bad mood.  The response is just as abrasive, and nobody wins.
 
So I am greatly in favor of a less toxic but more responsive environment, and I'm sure Carbine is evaluating their next move on this very subject.	
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The difference between devs at Marvel Heroes, for example, and here are they have an unprecedented level of honesty and engagement with their player base. The results have been nothing less than spectacular as they transformed their game from a dead launch into a huge hit.
 
You constantly see them on the forums and in game, from the lowest member of the dev team to the CEO. They are always leaking stuff, posting pics, engaging in discussions - even the tough ones. This is all while patching in content weekly with 1-2 major monthly drops. The players know what they are up to even if it's months out and know all the bumps along the way.
 
It's easy to get behind people like that. They also weren't afraid to transform their game dramatically when they realized it wasn't living up to the player's expectations or their own for that matter.
 
Here it's an express elevator going down. Threads on serious issues are left to fester and it makes for a hostile community. They have a rigid plan for where the game is going that took nothing into account for where the game would be if things went wrong. I drop by every so often as my sub runs out just to see if there has been anything addressed at all. Every time the answer is "no". Thus far it's all marketing speak, Carbine talks a good game, if the devs were actually listening you'd know it, it would be apparent and therefore not require a "catchphrase".	
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I think Vic makes an excellent point that a good portion of this second drop is to fix some major issues with PvP which has been discussed at great length on these forums.  That alone means they are listening.
 
Responding, however?  Yeah that may possibly need to be re-evaluated.  "Active Listening" is a key thing in the business world these days, especially with the onslaught of people WFH.  A key part of actively listening is responding and acknowledging the speaker and their statements regarding an issue.  Obviously that is impossible to do on the scale of an MMO population, but perhaps more interaction speaking to a "collective concern", if you will, would add a ton of value.
 
The biggest obstacle to date in my opinion is the high degree of defensiveness on the part of some forum goers whenever anyone expresses a concern, constructive or otherwise.  Waving the virtual flag of Nexus in the face of the disgruntled is about the equivalent of me asking my wife what is "up her arse" when she is in a bad mood.  The response is just as abrasive, and nobody wins.
 
So I am greatly in favor of a less toxic but more responsive environment, and I'm sure Carbine is evaluating their next move on this very subject.
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The difference between devs at Marvel Heroes, for example, and here are they have an unprecedented level of honesty and engagement with their player base. The results have been nothing less than spectacular as they transformed their game from a dead launch into a huge hit.
 
You constantly see them on the forums and in game, from the lowest member of the dev team to the CEO. They are always leaking stuff, posting pics, engaging in discussions - even the tough ones. This is all while patching in content weekly with 1-2 major monthly drops. The players know what they are up to even if it's months out and know all the bumps along the way.
 
It's easy to get behind people like that. They also weren't afraid to transform their game dramatically when they realized it wasn't living up to the player's expectations or their own for that matter.
 
Here it's an express elevator going down. Threads on serious issues are left to fester and it makes for a hostile community. They have a rigid plan for where the game is going that took nothing into account for where the game would be if things went wrong. I drop by every so often as my sub runs out just to see if there has been anything addressed at all. Every time the answer is "no". Thus far it's all marketing speak, Carbine talks a good game, if the devs were actually listening you'd know it, it would be apparent and therefore not require a "catchphrase".
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You know its funny this whole The Devs are listening gimmick. Anyone playing marvel heroes? Or read the forums? cupcake. Thats what it really looks like when the devs are listening. You get devs from all the different areas on the forums fielding questions, actually responding to posts, sometimes just joking or having fun. They are ACTIVE. I mean the second day I started playing that game I posted a newb question about if the instances scale based on solo entering or duo. I got a dev response. 
 
Wildstar is no different than any other average mmo. They arent listening or responding to us more. I mean just look at the number of issues that were known since early beta that the community was vocal about and they are still here. 
 
No, every once in awhile a dev will respond to something if there is enough outrage and then say "see we ARE listening!' It's a joke
 
Edit: Now I feel dumb for not reading though all the pages. MH was already brought up :/	
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The difference between devs at Marvel Heroes, for example, and here are they have an unprecedented level of honesty and engagement with their player base. The results have been nothing less than spectacular as they transformed their game from a dead launch into a huge hit.
 
You constantly see them on the forums and in game, from the lowest member of the dev team to the CEO. They are always leaking stuff, posting pics, engaging in discussions - even the tough ones. This is all while patching in content weekly with 1-2 major monthly drops. The players know what they are up to even if it's months out and know all the bumps along the way.
 
It's easy to get behind people like that. They also weren't afraid to transform their game dramatically when they realized it wasn't living up to the player's expectations or their own for that matter.
 
Here it's an express elevator going down. Threads on serious issues are left to fester and it makes for a hostile community. They have a rigid plan for where the game is going that took nothing into account for where the game would be if things went wrong. I drop by every so often as my sub runs out just to see if there has been anything addressed at all. Every time the answer is "no". Thus far it's all marketing speak, Carbine talks a good game, if the devs were actually listening you'd know it, it would be apparent and therefore not require a "catchphrase".
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While it's great that they come out and do Q&A's for everyone, sometimes the unpracticed, bad spin they use to not-answer questions is terrible.
 
These people are not politicians and it's painfully obvious at times how they are trying to spin up their penalizing/gating design as a fun, good thing. . Sure they gotta dodge the question, but it makes them seem to take us for idiots.
 
I think that's where some of the "blowing up" comes from. That and people in an anonymous online world can be complete cupcake bags.
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O and I forgot to add.  I need to call you out @ThaCheez.   Cmon Tony, you're the community manager and haven't posted to the forums in over a week :(.  You're better then that.  Deep down nothing but <3, just wish you guys would have more of an active pressence.  
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You should realise by now that Tony only posts on forums when things get really bad or quiet. (at one point it was near a month of him from post to post)
 
If things are super busy he's off making videos with the guys in his office.
 
And when that's done, he takes the time out to do a Livestream for the players.
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You should realise by now that Tony only posts on forums when things get really bad or quiet. (at one point it was near a month of him from post to post)
 
If things are super busy he's off making videos with the guys in his office.
 
And when that's done, he takes the time out to do a Livestream for the players.
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I understand that.  Just think of the possibilities if Tony and Frost talked in the forums though.
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			I keep hearing the slogan "The devs are listening."   But after seeing the direction the game is going, all I can think of is:  "The devs are listening.....TO REALLY LOUD MUSIC!" Some of the changes and direction the game has been taken just leave me scratching my head and wondering WTF is going on.   	
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