Report 184

Report #184
Skillset: Enchantment Skill: Disenchanting
 Org: Ebonguard Status: Completed May 2009
Furies' Decision:
We will add a small delay between disenchanting.
Problem: With the recent change to Enchantment to give it specializations, all
of the sigils were put into the first 180 lessons (up to master) of the
Enchantment skillset. This means that for 180 lessons, bards/mages can (for 2
power) disenchant every single sigil in an enemy's territory for the
commodities. Given the ease of access to this, it is becoming increasingly
clear that it's just not worth using sigils to defend important "public" areas
like Ethereal Serenwilde, Ethereal Glomdoring, and villages. This is an issue
especially in Ethereal, where it is easy to teleport / spore / summon from one
side to the other if not properly defended, and it does not seem like completely
destroying the Ethereal dynamic was an intended side-effect of this
specialization.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Make it so that disenchanting sigils in enemy
 territory takes 10 power. This means it can still be
 done to put holes in an enemy's defenses for
 teleporting / pyramiding / sporing, but just clearing
 the entire place of sigils is far more difficult.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Make disenchanting sigils like removing statues /
 paintings / planar rifts. You spend 2p to start
 disenchanting, and then have to stand around and wait
 for X minutes (perhaps 5 minutes per sigil) doing
 nothing or the disenchanting is aborted.
Player Comments:
---[Xenthos on 4/25 @ 03:08 writes]:
I prefer solution one as it easily allows for quick removal of a sigil on-demand
to create said hole, without the current "Let's just destroy every sigil because
we can!" mindset going on on all sides.
---[Krellan on 4/26 @ 01:42 writes]:
I actually like that we can't mass sigil places now. It should encourage more
conflict offprime, which has alway been the goal because people can go i and out
more easily
---[Gregori on 4/26 @ 04:05 writes]:
Solution 1 for me
---[Gavilian on 4/26 @ 13:20 writes]:
Solution two is a good idea, but two minutes per is more rational of a wait then
5 minutes.
---[Xenthos on 4/26 @ 14:35 writes]:
Unfortunately, Krellan, "encouraging more conflict off prime" is not what this
does. Just like kicking and running an angel, teleporting to some clueless kid,
killing them, and insta-sporing out is not "conflict". It's frustrating both
ways, but at least one requires a 2000 credit artifact and some time spent in
openPK territory after fleeing (the Fulcrux) whereas the other just requires
Adept planar and a spore to the nexus. Ethereal's dynamic has been changed to a
huge degree by this one seemingly-minor change-- and, with solution 1 at least,
the new change still allows Communes with their new enchanting skill top hop in,
disenchant a little bit and open up a nice hole for their raiders to go in and
out of during the duration of the raid.
---[Ethelon on 4/27 @ 17:08 writes]:
I agree with Krellan, there is no reason to do this to sigils, considering that
they are far easier to come by now. It already costs 2p for the disenchant, so
its not like it is for free.
---[Gavilian on 4/28 @ 06:36 writes]:
Which by the by the power is tapped from your reserves, but to make one its able
to be tapped from a powerstone.
---[Xenthos on 4/29 @ 01:45 writes]:
2 power is, pretty obviously, not a huge disincentive. It is about as low as a
power cost can be, and is pretty much ignored when disenchanting huge swathes of
monoliths (on both sides). Doing it to make holes in defenses needs to be
possible (as it was), but now that it is available to a much larger portion of
the game for a significant reduction in lessons, Ethereal's entire dynamic
changed completely. Being "easier to come by" doesn't change the fact that
they're even easier to destroy. Hence the suggestions.
---[Nejii on 4/30 @ 01:52 writes]:
Either solution is good
---[Nydekion on 4/30 @ 01:54 writes]:
If you don't want to worry about mass disenchanting then I would not suggest not
placing mass sigils. There are already various other methods to deal with
teleportation issues such as shrine distortion. This suggestion is silly at
best.
---[Xenthos on 4/30 @ 03:00 writes]:
Shrine distortion is, obviously, limited by having a Shrine and someone in the
Order who has the priv, Nydekion. Further, the reasoning about how it
completely changes the Ethereal dynamic (by not placing sigils) is not even
addressed by you. Having mass swathes disenchanted or not placing any are, in
the end, the exact same thing. Except that one takes a large amount of extra
time and commodities.
---[Nydekion on 4/30 @ 14:34 writes]:
It does change the Ethereal dynamic, one for the better. Previously, it was nigh
impossible to leave or enter Ethereal territories without possession of a cubix
or running through a group back to the aetherport. The recent change to allow
disenchanting by both communes and cities brings the dynamic back to where it
should have been in the first place: the usage of sigils in tactical situations
instead of flooding an entire area with them.
---[Nydekion on 4/30 @ 14:49 writes]:
Also note, concerning the Ethereal dynamic, that sigils are generally placed 9
levels down already requiring significant time to dig up before it can be
successfully disenchanted, making solution 2 essentially unnecessary and
redundant.
---[Xenthos on 4/30 @ 21:30 writes]:
Which is why mass disenchanting happens at off-hours when you know that nobody
is around to stop you at the moment. There is no mass-disenchanting during on-
hours. You just log on to having everything gone. That said, I do prefer
solution 1. Also: How is it for the better, on any terms beyond "I really enjoy
suddenly having an easier time of getting to Ethereal than Cosmic"? That's not
"better". Being able to get in with Adept Planar and out with a spore is not
"better". At least it takes a very expensive artifact to hit and run on Cosmic,
but this goes extremely far beyond even that.
---[Nydekion on 5/1 @ 15:25 writes]:
That very phenomena you describe, Xenthos, is exactly what cities have to deal
with during any raid. And as stated earlier, shrine distortion will stop
snorting spores in its tracks. In addition, both suggestions do nothing more
than encourage off-hour disenchantment where time (either in regaining power or
recovering from initiating the skill) is not as large of a factor...running
exactly counter to your argument. If spores are a problem in ethereal raids,
perhaps the answer is to change spores instead of suggesting a change to the
disenchantment mechanic that makes no sense.
---[Xenthos on 5/1 @ 23:10 writes]:
It's not like it "encourages" off-hour disenchanting, Nydekion. It already
happens off-hours only, it's just more of a disincentive to go around doing it.
How do you think it will encourage more of it than is already done? That seems
to defy common sense-- if X amount occurs and it is all off-hours, and you
-increase- the cost of doing it, it does not follow that it will somehow
increase the amount. And spores are not the only problem-- teleport is, as
well, given that it is easy to just WHO and see who is on the other side. Thus,
we could either try to nerf Teleport, Spores, and Thirdeye... or fix the issue,
which is that mass-disenchanting sigils has extremely more easy to do
---[Nydekion on 5/2 @ 04:01 writes]:
Heh, how is teleport a problem here? Is it that complicated to tell your commune
mates to move when they notice the teleport message instead of standing there
and watching it go through?
---[Gregori on 5/2 @ 17:14 writes]:
Mass disenchanting already happens off hours. It isn't used for anything, but a
greifer mechanic. Increasing the cost makes it still viable for raids, but not
just for someone to run around doing dickery. I agree with Xenthos. It won't
cause an increase in off hour disenchanting, it will cause a decrease in mass
disenchanting completely.
---[Sarrasri on 5/2 @ 17:22 writes]:
You're missing the difference between cosmic and ethereal in the way of things.
You can not teleport/spore or check thirdeye and see who is on Nil from
Celestia, and vice versa. However, Serenwilde and Glomdoring share an entire
plane. So you'll have a bunch of jumping back and forth between the three parts
of Ethereal, or more, since you can include the Catacombs and Wydyr as other
places to stand to teleport from. Celestia is its own place, just like Nil is,
nothing else connecting to it. So the problem is not spores, teleport, and
thirdeye, the problem is how easy it is to disenchant, making it even easier to
enter than Celestia and Nil. I'm sure you'd be complaining too if someone could
just teleport to you on Celestia whenever while they're on Nil. As it stands
now, all you need to do to almost completely lock down the plane is distort that
one rift. While it won't stop cubixing, that is a $2000 artifact they'll need to
get in, unless they decide going through the guards is worth it. I suppose a
ship too, but if you're really into it, you can get a trans commander to seal
the dock. Xenthos' suggestion doesn't neuter the possibility to use disenchant
to create a hole to let others in while raiding, it just discourages mass-
enchanting because of a new, larger power cost in enemy territory. Doing the
math, no one would be able to fully disenchant in one go with this power cost.
Ethereal Serenwilde is 55 rooms, and if that's 10 power per room, that's 550
power to disenchant the entire area, or 225% reserves.
---[Nydekion on 5/2 @ 20:10 writes]:
If players in either commune are standing in an area, noticing the teleport
message, continuing to stand there for 8 seconds without moving or taking any
precautions to prevent it, it certainly is not a failure in mechanics at that
point. Additionally, the same scenario can happen on Celestia or Nil: scry from
an elemental plane and tesseract over since aethersight is tripped via scry,
teleport, or tesseract, there really is no difference there. Furthermore, there
are no permanent rifts to relatively safe areas on ethereal Serenwilde or
Glomdoring compared to those that exist on the cosmic planes, one has to either
enter through a formation of guards at the archways or sail a ship around to the
port. No cubix will allow as quick or simple access to the organizational
ethereal planes as what exists on the cosmic planes. The only potential issue is
escape which is facilitated by spores (since it is a relatively basic guild
skill compared to requiring an expensive artifact), but at that point it is an
issue with spores and not disenchantment.
---[Xenthos on 5/2 @ 21:27 writes]:
I know how badly you want to see Forest stuff hammered, Nydekion, but spores
really are not the issue. There are other ways in and out, including basic
teleport (again, Adept planar), and WHO with thirdeye is a heck of a lot easier
to find some newbie to teleport to than scrying and hoping to find someone. It
is all well-and-good to say "You should know to move!," but newbies (and even
not-newbies) look away from the screen every so often, and the Ethereal setup is
clearly completely different from the Cosmic. This change to *sigils* (not
Spore, not Teleport, not Thirdeye, not any other skill) has completely upset the
Ethereal dynamic, and so a change to sigils to counteract the much greater ease
of access is being proposed.
---[Sidd on 5/2 @ 22:08 writes]:
Having disenchanting so readily available really just gives enchanters easy
access to obtaining comms. People have also been complaining about people coming
into their manses and shops etc and disenchanting those sigils as well. I don't
believe disenchant is suppose to be an easy comm gathering button, but a means
of counteracting sigils in a raiding situation etc., and Xenthos solutions allow
that to still happen while preventing the abuse of disenchanting for the sake of
free comms off peak hours.
---[Nydekion on 5/2 @ 22:15 writes]:
In lieu of personal accusations, I'd like to point out that the disenchantment
mechanic has not changed at all with the inception of the new specializations
and there was no issue with it before. The only difference now is that more
people have access to the skill, as such no change is necessary. Communes gained
a rather useful ability in being able to unravel sigils without requiring help
from a city enchanter, as such, some of the troubles that cities face regarding
disenchantment come with it and if it has been reasonably handled by the cities
without code changes, it can be handled by the communes in the same manner.
---[Xenthos on 5/3 @ 02:17 writes]:
Looking at an old skill list of enchanting, Nydekion, it is rather obvious that
it has changed considerably. Now, all of the sigils can be achieved for less
than 180 lessons, whereas previously Monoliths were one of the highest skills in
the skillset. Though you do make a valid point that it is far more available
now, which also causes issues. Further, you say it was "reasonably handled by
the cities," but we have already made numerous points above showing that the
Ethereal dynamic is completely different from the Cosmic. Though I really don't
mind if Cosmic is made harder to kick-and-run.
---[Ceren on 5/6 @ 21:11 writes]:
What if we made etherseren, faethorn, and etherglom 3 separate continents so
that spores will no longer work between them? As far as teleport goes, that's
not so much different than the tesseracting on and off cosmic that has been
going on since the game started.
---[Sidd on 5/9 @ 01:03 writes]:
I like Ceren's idea, but I don't really understand why there is so much
animosity towards making disenchanting harder, it benefits both cities and
communes, it doesn't eliminate the ability to raid and it prevents easy abuse if
3am comm harvesting.
---[Xenthos on 5/9 @ 01:26 writes]:
Right, Sidd. That's pretty much where I'm coming from. Such raids as the
recent "Sneak in, disenchant and pyramid a group directly to the target" would
be just as doable.
---[Xenthos on 5/10 @ 03:10 writes]:
And, given recent changes (including the one I note in the announce right now
that enchantments can be disenchanted regardless of elevation)... this is
becoming even more important. Without digging, for power, a sigil / a few
sigils can be removed to make a hole.
---[Nydekion on 5/10 @ 08:56 writes]:
Ceren's idea to make Etherwilde, Etherglom, and Faethorn three separate
continents addresses the issue of sporing fairly, no change in disenchantment
would be necessary given that solution.
---[Gregori on 5/10 @ 10:26 writes]:
Given that with the new changes Ethereal is being cleared of sigils faster than
even before the bury extra objects trick came into play, I have to agree that 10
power in enemy territory is a justified solution.
---[Nejii on 5/12 @ 05:27 writes]:
"enemy territory" probably needs some qualifying btw - basically, org territory
that you don't belong to. It would be pretty cheesy to just send into Etherglom
people who aren't enemied to Night and have it work at 500% efficiency.
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