110779-no-tokens-please

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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
 	
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Yes to tokens. While more loot will get shared less will get lost.I'm a raid leader and officer from a guild starting to head into datascape in a few weeks if everything turns out well and i approve of this change fully.
It worked in WoW and was great, no token would go to waste for a long time compared to some item pieces that are now simply put to OS's due to large loot tables and bad RNG. You may keep your RNG in diablo 3 where i enjoy it and leave it out of our raids thank you, there will still be RNG enough with raid tokens. Also really happy that class specific items will be restated completely, now tell me it's retro active and i'm a rather happy person with these changes to the reward structure for both raid and dungeon. 
Adding this here so people can see it:
 
Seems a lot of people didn't watch the stream or completely misunderstood the answer given.
So i just looked at the stream again and this is the exact answer, so this general token point of their being valor "points" is completely misguided.
Go watch at 35 minutes in this stream. http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/b/562172149
 
 
So it seems people are arguing against something that isn't even planned. Also not sure why people call it tokens as it was never called tokens in WoW but points. 
 
This was the answer and question this is based off,
 
Q: Are there any plans for raid tier gear to be earned with tokens from bosses?
 
A: Yes, so with the changes i'm going to be making, the intend is to have tokens drop from the bosses that can be traded in for the updated class pieces. A big reason for this is to primarily cut down on the loot bloat. So we can potentionally take 76 drops and turn them into 18, what is really nice but this also opens up a lot of drops to other classes. So you'll be running through and the class, esper healing gloves drop and you're esper healer is already geared up and that's a lost drop, so this atleast opens it up to Spellslinger or esper support and assault gloves.
 
 
Now read that again and what does that match valor points or class tokens? 	
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			I believe tokens are a much needed addition to the current system. I am glad to hear about the change. I'm not even raiding yet, however most of my guild and a few friends are. Especially with the current gear, even when you do get a drop it's likely not as good as what you have. It helps to give you a goal when you're slogging through hours of dungeons/raids and rarely see anything of worth ever drop. Additional incentives for difficult group play isn't a bad thing.	
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I believe tokens are a much needed addition to the current system. I am glad to hear about the change. I'm not even raiding yet, however most of my guild and a few friends are. Especially with the current gear, even when you do get a drop it's likely not as good as what you have. It helps to give you a goal when you're slogging through hours of dungeons/raids and rarely see anything of worth ever drop. Additional incentives for difficult group play isn't a bad thing.
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Yeah, this is just to normalize gearing a bit.  Too much wasted gear to fuel a 40 man raid and 40 man PVP team, and Carbine wants 40 man teams.
 
 
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Better idea; instead of tokens drop specific items that can be crafted into raid quality gear. Can't craft the gear with-out the drop- can't get the drop but in a raid. 
 
FFXI did a similar thing with HNM drops. If you wanted a scorpion harness you had to get the venemous claw from an NM scorpion...
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Better idea; instead of tokens drop specific items that can be crafted into raid quality gear. Can't craft the gear with-out the drop- can't get the drop but in a raid. 
 
FFXI did a similar thing with HNM drops. If you wanted a scorpion harness you had to get the venemous claw from an NM scorpion...
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			Why drop only crafting components when you don't craft. Token is more fair.	
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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
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Why drop only crafting components when you don't craft. Token is more fair.
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My knee-jerk reaction: no to tokens. Why? Because it sounds like the WoW system that we all *cupcake*ing hate.
 
But in taking some time to think about it, I do feel that having shared token loot does help reduce waste from bosses.
I have to say, I would be in favor of that change.	
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Tell you what:  Ask your boss to randomize your paycheck.  You know maybe one week you'll earn 10 bucks and the next a couple of grand.  Tell me how fun and exciting your month is, esp. when you're 100000:1 more likely to earn the 10 bucks.  Imagine how surprising and exhilarating it'll be planning your monthly budget.
 
RNG IS NOT HARDCORE OR FUN UNLESS YOU'RE A GAMBLING ADDICT.	
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 ! crafting with raid  drops almost always gets more messy than just dropping the loot directly and force the creations of all sort of extra items ie raid_sword_hilts  and random_sword_ recipe)
 
2  have you tried to have some second party craft you gear for you, it is  tedious as balls trying to dial in  all the customization and screw up  your craft
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Tell you what:  Ask your boss to randomize your paycheck.  You know maybe one week you'll earn 10 bucks and the next a couple of grand.  Tell me how fun and exciting your month is, esp. when you're 100000:1 more likely to earn the 10 bucks.  Imagine how surprising and exhilarating it'll be planning your monthly budget.
 
RNG IS NOT HARDCORE OR FUN UNLESS YOU'RE A GAMBLING ADDICT.
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			The pve in this game isn't hardcore, it's a casual oriented game without all of the perks of being casual friendly.  Time to get modern.	
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I think this thread missed out the on specific example given of where tokens would be used.
 
Evan said tokens were meant for shared armor types. 
To use the example he mentioned:
At the moment a light armor glove might drop, and it might only be good for DPS Espers and terrible for DPS Spellslingers. If you don't have a DPS Esper the item is effectively wasted.
Tokens are meant to be for when this happens, so instead of that glove dropping thats only good for DPS Espers, you would get a token that a DPS Esper or a DPS Spellslinger could turn it into a item for their stats. 
 
Its for classes that share armor types but not armor stats.
 
This makes it completely different from the warcraft tiered item sets, where you would get shared tokens between Druids, Deathknights, Mages, and Rogue, classes that have nothing to do with each other item wise and the item you get for your token was very different to the items other classes got.
 
This is the way I understood him throughout all the quietness and sound issues. :P	
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...well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore...
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I think this thread missed out the on specific example given of where tokens would be used.
 
Evan said tokens were meant for shared armor types. 
To use the example he mentioned:
At the moment a light armor glove might drop, and it might only be good for DPS Espers and terrible for DPS Spellslingers. If you don't have a DPS Esper the item is effectively wasted.
Tokens are meant to be for when this happens, so instead of that glove dropping thats only good for DPS Espers, you would get a token that a DPS Esper or a DPS Spellslinger could turn it into a item for their stats. 
 
Its for classes that share armor types but not armor stats.
 
This makes it completely different from the warcraft tiered item sets, where you would get shared tokens between Druids, Deathknights, Mages, and Rogue, classes that have nothing to do with each other item wise and the item you get for your token was very different to the items other classes got.
 
This is the way I understood him throughout all the quietness and sound issues. :P
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Isn't this exactly what elder gems were supposed to be for?  Why create a separate system instead of just improving the one you already have that does almost exactly the same thing.  Make raid bosses give elder gems that don't count towards the cap (can only kill them once a week anyways).  Make dungeon bosses give elder gems that don't count towards the cap on some kind of daily cooldown (like maybe the daily dungeon quest they talked about adding...).  Same thing with adventures/world bosses/shiphands/world events. 
 
Expand the amount of loot you can buy with elder gems to directly correlate with the boss drops (maybe with -1 runeslots though to add incentive to continue farming).  Add more cool stuff other than gear from the elder gem vendor.  The ferris wheel was a good start, wheres the rest?  People that don't raid need stuff to buy too (not that I'd buy it, but somebody sure will).
 
I thought the whole point of elder gems was to be THE max level currency and to prevent having "currency overload" with justice badges, tier tokens, valor points, etc etc.	
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The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
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Know what I think isn't fun?
Having bad luck over and over and over with no way to circumvent the system.
 
I kind of don't see the necessity for additional currencies considering EG*, but it's better than relying on luck anyway.
 
 
 
*Why not increase the item stock on the EG vendor (of course with the achievement requirements we already know) and drop extra EG packages instead of introducing completely new currencies?	
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I agree with OP
 
People complain about RNG but really they want the thrill of the rolls and the thrill of the randomization.. they just wont admit it.. its like gambling.. people love it.. but they wont admit they love it...	
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I agree with OP
 
People complain about RNG but really they want the thrill of the rolls and the thrill of the randomization.. they just wont admit it.. its like gambling.. people love it.. but they wont admit they love it...
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 Tokens aren't meant to be fun, they fix a lot of problems with loot all in one neat package. as long as the split tokens along good equally needy groups it will be a net gain. 
 
 Wildstar itemization is one of the highest ranked *cupcake*ups in wildstars development; it i mindboggling that MMo devs could miss the mark on a core functionality that has sunk games far far better than wildstar hopes to be.
 
 
 See the problem here isnt the new blood in carbines ranks up setting your vision of what is good about the game. its that Wildstar is having a crash course in what the hell design actually works in 2014; things that have been tested and proven to please players.
 
 that said if you liked the way wildstar did look, go play Diablo 3 or one of the myriad of ARPGs where that sort of crap shoot loot system actually is desirable.
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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
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For those jumping in on Lethality's opinions, I do recommend checking out the full stream (YouTube version should be up this evening I expect). As Evan talks about a whole range of topics, including improvements to Elder Gem gear and such.
 
Personal Opinion; I prefer tokens. I'm never treated favorably by the RNG gods and don't get to run multiple dungeons a night. Being able to save up tokens over a couple of weeks and then buying a decent bit of gear is a big help for a time-challenged individual like myself. ;)	
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I agree with OP
 
People complain about RNG but really they want the thrill of the rolls and the thrill of the randomization.. they just wont admit it.. its like gambling.. people love it.. but they wont admit they love it...
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I think this thread missed out the on specific example given of where tokens would be used.
 
Evan said tokens were meant for shared armor types. 
To use the example he mentioned:
At the moment a light armor glove might drop, and it might only be good for DPS Espers and terrible for DPS Spellslingers. If you don't have a DPS Esper the item is effectively wasted.
Tokens are meant to be for when this happens, so instead of that glove dropping thats only good for DPS Espers, you would get a token that a DPS Esper or a DPS Spellslinger could turn it into a item for their stats. 
 
Its for classes that share armor types but not armor stats.
 
This makes it completely different from the warcraft tiered item sets, where you would get shared tokens between Druids, Deathknights, Mages, and Rogue, classes that have nothing to do with each other item wise and the item you get for your token was very different to the items other classes got.
 
This is the way I understood him throughout all the quietness and sound issues. :P
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Gambling isn't fun. Most sane people who go to Vegas hit the clubs, watch shows, eat a nice dinner, see the Hoover dam, things like that. You may toss a few bucks into a machine for giggles, but it isn't the purpose of the visit.
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No... most people do exactly the opposite of that in Vegas :) Gambling IS fun.
 
Players are unwilling to embrace change. They keep asking for it, but really what they want more of the same thing they've had for a decade. And now it appears WildStar is headed down that path of sameness.
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The problem with tokens is that they're not fun.
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No... most people do exactly the opposite of that in Vegas :) Gambling IS fun.
 
Players are unwilling to embrace change. They keep asking for it, but really what they want more of the same thing they've had for a decade. And now it appears WildStar is headed down that path of sameness.
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No... most people do exactly the opposite of that in Vegas :) Gambling IS fun.
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You don't speak for everyone, so no need to make such statements about what players want and don't want. I very much embrace this change and can't think of many that are actually raiding and clearing all if not majority of GA weekly would be opposed to this considering the changes on the items aren't retro active and the loot tables are too large. The entire problem of this game is that a lot of the raid drops get salvaged. Are you actually even raiding in this game?
 
 
@Anlath, how i understood it there were tokens for class items not tokens in general to give you items, tier tokens, such as vanquisher chest that was shared among classes a la wow, not valor/heroic points.
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No... most people do exactly the opposite of that in Vegas :) Gambling IS fun.
 
Players are unwilling to embrace change. They keep asking for it, but really what they want more of the same thing they've had for a decade. And now it appears WildStar is headed down that path of sameness.
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			Does it sound like it will be similar to Justice badges from TBC days, or does it sound more akin to the GW2 system?	
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No, I don't speak for everyone but this is a critical topic that needs discussion. It will take WildStar in a completely different direction. It deserves to have some debate, and I hope Carbine is up for it.
 
There are other ways to approach change as I've suggested... in ways that preserve the unique itemization of WildStar while balancing the effort needed to get the desired reward.
 
As I've stated, this is not as big of a problem with the game as it is with the players. Unhappy that they can't get the precise item they want, yet unwilling to put in the effort in the current structure.
 
Yes, it's a little punishing right now, but with tweaks to the loot tables and drop rates, I think the current system would work fine - and encourage what Carbine wanted all along with the design of this system - a desire by players to keep running the content to get what they want.
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I would be inclined to NOT follow the path Warcraft took with the whole Badge/Valor/Justice system, specially because, badge and/or point gear gets outdated rather quickly and even Blizzard acknowledged how bulky and confusing systems like these can get.
 
That being said, loot in Wildstar is not only random but EXTREMELY random. Tokens would at least help alleviate the feeling of having run something for 30,40, 60 minutes and ending up with absolutely nothing but gear to salvage.
 
@Lethality you seriously need to stop trying to speak for "the players". I have no issue if it's your opinion and your opinion alone, but statements like Players are unwilling to embrace change  do not necessarily reflect the entirety of the playerbase.	
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			Back in GW2, my guild discussed RNG vs token gear. Some people felt there was no sense of accomplishment with token gear. They also said they are impressed when they see a player wearing a rare piece of RNG gear, but not at all with token gear. Personally, I get no sense of accomplishment from winning the gear lottery. Seeing someone wearing a rare piece of RNG gear tells me they are really lucky, nothing more.	
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Back in GW2, my guild discussed RNG vs token gear. Some people felt there was no sense of accomplishment with token gear. They also said they are impressed when they see a player wearing a rare piece of RNG gear, but not at all with token gear. Personally, I get no sense of accomplishment from winning the gear lottery. Seeing someone wearing a rare piece of RNG gear tells me they are really lucky, nothing more.
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When they spoke about tokens considering the context it was said in i was thinking about this
 
http://www.wowhead.com/item=31090
 
Not valor, heroic "points".	
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I, for one, am completly agaisn't a token system.
 
1. We already have elder gem vendor to provide raid quality gears.
2. Not knowing what is going to drop is more fun than receiving tokens after tokens until you go buy what you need.
 
Yes I am aware that many raid drops are being salvaged, but you can't expect everyone to need everything everytime. Even with tokens, at one point people won't be needing these tokens.
 
My take on the "gearing problem" would be to add an entire armor set to the elder gem vendor and give a small amount elder gems on boss kill (5-10 maybe? still only 30-60 weekly for a full GA clear). Keep raiding drops slightly beter than the elder gem gears.
That way people that can't always raid will still be able to buy their gears (even if they didn't work for it much but thats what people seem to be crying about, so be it) once they have unloked it by killing the boss, and people can keep their hopes and excitement up in seeing some fat lootz drop everytime they kill bosses instead of knowing a boring token is awaiting them.
 
Also a tech that reduces the chances of useless drops would be a good idea, even this might take a long time solution, and the majority of the playerbase is sadly too impatient...	
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I like the basic idea of the tokens but bosses dropping badges that can be exchanged for gear at a vendor is a pretty lazy execution of this matter.
 
To think that there is a guy sitting on items that help heroes to defeat a hazardous monster endangering the planet but he tells me: "Meh, I won't give you the item unless you give me some tokens." That just sucks.
 
A more elegant version would be bosses dropping unique crafting materials which NPC's use to craft these items.
 
 
Other than that I'm pro tokens.
 
 
Edit:
That said, making every BiS optainable by tokens is the worst thing to do! Keep weapons and some special items out of that!	
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			As someone who raided for months (in vain) in search of the match to my offhand Warglaive, I stiff prefer the random loot drops. While I admit the lords of the RNG had me by the cupcakes and indeed never came through for me, I like the randomness. It was one more reason to tackle the instance over and over.	
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As someone who raided for months (in vain) in search of the match to my offhand Warglaive, I stiff prefer the random loot drops. While I admit the lords of the RNG had me by the cupcakes and indeed never came through for me, I like the randomness. It was one more reason to tackle the instance over and over.
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I'm not going to respond to every post because that would be overload. I just want to let good discussion happen for the better of the game, and so Carbine might be able to grab something useful out of it. Please just try not to let you personal hate for me color your view on this extremely important topic.  
 
WildStar brought with it a unique itemization plan. I prefer to see it tweaked not gutted. Tokens would not work well in the spirit of what the game was trying to do with itemization.	
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I agree. I wholeheartedly prefer the feeling of finally getting the piece of gear you want, the one that brings meaning and completion to your gearset. But between that feeling and "Crap, I just got squat again", I'd rather get something out of the run. Then again, limited playtime and all that jazz.
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I'm not going to respond to every post because that would be overload. I just want to let good discussion happen for the better of the game, and so Carbine might be able to grab something useful out of it. Please just try not to let you personal hate for me color your view on this extremely important topic.  
 
WildStar brought with it a unique itemization plan. I prefer to see it tweaked not gutted. Tokens would not work well in the spirit of what the game was trying to do with itemization.
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			If they decide to bring tokens to vet dungeons i hope it wont be a daily quest reward but rather a drop from completing the dungeon / killing a boss.One of the many things that made me quit Rift was that only way to get Dungeon set gear was to complete daily quests. That doesnt make effort = gear, it makes time = gear. Not in the sense that "i need a lot of time to get my gear" but rather that "it will take me 9 days worth of dailys to get that helm" which makes the cost of that helm not 40 tokens, but 9 days worth of playing Rift. I would much rather be able to sit down and get 10 tokens in one saturday than have to spread it out over X days due to daily quests.	
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WildStar brought with it a unique itemization plan. I prefer to see it tweaked not gutted. 
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I agree with the OP. People keep complaining in every thread that everything is boring and tedius because you need to do it over and over again. People won't keep complaining if you have to do stuff over and over again to farm token. Before posting, think about what you already post in other thread.
 
Yes, the loot system need some work. But RNG and Elder Gem is a good system. The RNG need a bit of tweaking to avoid too many useless drop, cuz we all know that raider that salvage 99% of the raid drop doesn't feel right. Give it more time, they will tweak the RNG and maybe add more stuff you can buy with EG, and then, the system will work great.	
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			I'm still trying to figure out what they thought was wrong with the standard looting systems a lot of us have become accustomed to in multiple games for at least a decade. If it ain't broke...	
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Seems a lot of people didn't watch the stream or completely misunderstood the answer given.
So i just looked at the stream again and this is the exact answer, so this general token point of their being valor "points" is completely misguided.
Go watch at 35 minutes in this stream. http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/b/562172149
 
 
So it seems people are arguing against something that isn't even planned. Also not sure why people call it tokens as it was never called tokens in WoW but points. 
 
This was the answer and question this is based off,
 
Q: Are there any plans for raid tier gear to be earned with tokens from bosses?
 
A: Yes, so with the changes i'm going to be making, the intend is to have tokens drop from the bosses that can be traded in for the updated class pieces. A big reason for this is to primarily cut down on the loot bloat. So we can potentionally take 76 drops and turn them into 18, what is really nice but this also opens up a lot of drops to other classes. So you'll be running through and the class, esper healing gloves drop and you're esper healer is already geared up and that's a lost drop, so this atleast opens it up to Spellslinger or esper support and assault gloves.
 
 
Now read that again and what does that match valor points or class tokens? 
 
So they are speaking of adding this Chestguard of the Forgotten Vanquisher  
 
 
They aren't adding another currency people,  understanding and comprehension strikes again.	
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			Nvm, im dumb
			
				
	Edited August 27, 2014 by Feldyn	
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If they decide to bring tokens to vet dungeons i hope it wont be a daily quest reward but rather a drop from completing the dungeon / killing a boss.
 
One of the many things that made me quit Rift was that only way to get Dungeon set gear was to complete daily quests. That doesnt make effort = gear, it makes time = gear. Not in the sense that "i need a lot of time to get my gear" but rather that "it will take me 9 days worth of dailys to get that helm" which makes the cost of that helm not 40 tokens, but 9 days worth of playing Rift. I would much rather be able to sit down and get 10 tokens in one saturday than have to spread it out over X days due to daily quests.
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Bleh isn't it just fun to complete a raid and get something for your time? 
 
Who cares what form it is?
And you people call yourself hardcore gamers? 
 
More like Hardcore whiners.	
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Seems a lot of people didn't watch the stream or completely misunderstood the answer given.
So i just looked at the stream again and this is the exact answer, so this general token point of their being valor "points" is completely misguided.
Go watch at 35 minutes in this stream. http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/b/562172149
 
 
So it seems people are arguing against something that isn't even planned. Also not sure why people call it tokens as it was never called tokens in WoW but points. 
 
This was the answer and question this is based off,
 
Q: Are there any plans for raid tier gear to be earned with tokens from bosses?
 
A: Yes, so with the changes i'm going to be making, the intend is to have tokens drop from the bosses that can be traded in for the updated class pieces. A big reason for this is to primarily cut down on the loot bloat. So we can potentionally take 76 drops and turn them into 18, what is really nice but this also opens up a lot of drops to other classes. So you'll be running through and the class, esper healing gloves drop and you're esper healer is already geared up and that's a lost drop, so this atleast opens it up to Spellslinger or esper support and assault gloves.
 
 
Now read that again and what does that match valor points or class tokens? 
 
So they are speaking of adding this Chestguard of the Forgotten Vanquisher
 
 
They aren't adding another currency people,  understanding and comprehension strikes again.
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{| class="blockquote"
Seems a lot of people didn't watch the stream or completely misunderstood the answer given.
So i just looked at the stream again and this is the exact answer, so this general token point of their being valor "points" is completely misguided.
Go watch at 35 minutes in this stream. http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/b/562172149
 
 
So it seems people are arguing against something that isn't even planned. Also not sure why people call it tokens as it was never called tokens in WoW but points. 
 
This was the answer and question this is based off,
 
Q: Are there any plans for raid tier gear to be earned with tokens from bosses?
 
A: Yes, so with the changes i'm going to be making, the intend is to have tokens drop from the bosses that can be traded in for the updated class pieces. A big reason for this is to primarily cut down on the loot bloat. So we can potentionally take 76 drops and turn them into 18, what is really nice but this also opens up a lot of drops to other classes. So you'll be running through and the class, esper healing gloves drop and you're esper healer is already geared up and that's a lost drop, so this atleast opens it up to Spellslinger or esper support and assault gloves.
 
 
Now read that again and what does that match valor points or class tokens? 
 
So they are speaking of adding this Chestguard of the Forgotten Vanquisher
 
 
They aren't adding another currency people,  understanding and comprehension strikes again.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Every bolded element I added sounds like TOKENS to trade for CLASS PIECES.
 
No need to get snarky, friend, but it sounds every bit as a token system a la WoW, considering he mentioned the word Token and it is a Loot System. I still think it's not a bad idea, though.
 
You can call it Super Amazing Magical Source of unRNG Loot, if you'd like.
 
Also, this : http://wowpedia.org/Armor_token
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Majority here is arguing against a system like valor points. Including the OP. 
 
Things being hardcore for the sake of it is pointless, loot drops of that size on each boss is pointless. Majority of our loot being salvaged every raid due to them being either not an upgrade or having that many rolls in that your class part will never drop pointless.
 
The class tokens in WoW didn't make it less "hardcore" it made it less tedious and better manageable with a greater sense of being rewarded for your efforts. It also didn't made it less RNG as it still took me forever to get my enhancement shaman fully maxed on in T10 loot due to the rarity of the tokens, there's a 1 in 3 chance to get something you need instead of a 1 in 6. It halves the RNG but doesn't remove it.
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You know what really pisses me off about the so called *hardcore* players that want the game to have awfull and terrible dated systems that doesn't reward everyone ? Is that they aren't hardcore.
 
Most people bashing the forums when people try to add QoL improvements to the game haven't really raided for long periods of time, they did * vanilla wow raids* and played *hardcore games* and quit after a moderate amount of time because they got easily bored, people just love this IDEA of what should be a proper reward and this blind love for shit rng when they won't keep around long enough for it to ruin their experience.
 
For the past 10 years i raided hardcore in several different games, mostly wow in top 10 us guilds, and i can tell you that PEOPLE WILL QUIT EVERYTIME THEY FEEL REWARD = GARBAGE.
 
It's terrible enough 40 mans exist right now on this game ( which won't later on, if the game survives that long), let alone shit rng keep giving people costumes over anything else, i got 1 upgrade yesterday after raiding for 3 months, did it feel fun ? Not really, it was actually barely an upgrade, i got it just to twink a very small rune set and that's it, the only thing keeping me on this game atm is the guild friends and the amazing combat system, because everything else is incomplete.
 
Most folks that are so crazy about this rng and bad system like the op are ruining this game community and the FANTASTIC direction this game could take,  i'm really happy to see a good portion of the retard white knights quit the forums already ( and hopefully the game).
 
If the devs want raiding to be really hardcore, please implement a token system, make amp/ability upgrade points as easy to get as the normal amp drops and let A HUGE CLASS BALANCE HAPPEN BASED ON MORE THEN NUMBER TUNING, the meta game is broken right now and i'm pretty sure TUNING IS NEEDED OVER ANYTHING.
 
RNG isnt anything besides RNG, it needs to be toned down ABSURDLY so pvp/pve find a proper balance between classes/comp and the game can prosper.	
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The real problem is, that the so-called Harcdore Players can't tolerate challenging content so they assume tedious and boringly repetitive tasks that only they have the time and willingness to perform, is exactly what sets them apart.
 
As far as I know, the content remains untouched, so the real hardcore players (you know, the ones who quietly down the difficult bosses and expect more people with skill to have access to downing them as well) are happily doing their thing.
 
Tokens are a valid solution to loot bloat and I for one welcome our new non-RNG overlords.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You don't speak for everyone, so no need to make such statements about what players want and don't want. I very much embrace this change and can't think of many that are actually raiding and clearing all if not majority of GA weekly would be opposed to this considering the changes on the items aren't retro active and the loot tables are too large. The entire problem of this game is that a lot of the raid drops get salvaged. Are you actually even raiding in this game?
 
 
@Anlath, how i understood it there were tokens for class items not tokens in general to give you items, tier tokens, such as vanquisher chest that was shared among classes a la wow, not valor/heroic points.
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{| class="blockquote"
Seems a lot of people didn't watch the stream or completely misunderstood the answer given.
So i just looked at the stream again and this is the exact answer, so this general token point of their being valor "points" is completely misguided.
Go watch at 35 minutes in this stream. http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/b/562172149
 
 
So it seems people are arguing against something that isn't even planned. Also not sure why people call it tokens as it was never called tokens in WoW but points. 
 
This was the answer and question this is based off,
 
Q: Are there any plans for raid tier gear to be earned with tokens from bosses?
 
A: Yes, so with the changes i'm going to be making, the intend is to have tokens drop from the bosses that can be traded in for the updated class pieces. A big reason for this is to primarily cut down on the loot bloat. So we can potentionally take 76 drops and turn them into 18, what is really nice but this also opens up a lot of drops to other classes. So you'll be running through and the class, esper healing gloves drop and you're esper healer is already geared up and that's a lost drop, so this atleast opens it up to Spellslinger or esper support and assault gloves.
 
 
Now read that again and what does that match valor points or class tokens? 
 
So they are speaking of adding this Chestguard of the Forgotten Vanquisher
 
 
They aren't adding another currency people,  understanding and comprehension strikes again.
----
			Tokens is what gets people to run dungeons. It's the only feature (other than constantly adding new dungeons) that can truly revitalize people's interest in repeated dungeon runs. There have been frequent complaints that no one has any incentive to do dungeons once they cap. If random gear drops are changed to a Token System there will be a strong renewed interest in running instances. Again, and again, and again...	
----
			If item tokens make more people happy than it does unhappy, then I support the notion.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Tokens is what gets people to run dungeons. It's the only feature (other than constantly adding new dungeons) that can truly revitalize people's interest in repeated dungeon runs. There have been frequent complaints that no one has any incentive to do dungeons once they cap. If random gear drops are changed to a Token System there will be a strong renewed interest in running instances. Again, and again, and again...
----
			Tokens will be a good thing. No more perfectly executed dungeon runs with oh, what's this? A purple nobody can use? Smashing. My luck has been next level terrible and I haven't felt a rush of joy when something I wanted dropped after hours and hours of mindless reruns, just a sense of relief that I can finally stop and move on.	
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I don't like it.  I like the surprise of seeing what is dropping.  I like being able to read the stats right there on the item.  I like whoever gets the item to be able to link it immediately so we can all see what it looks like.  I am sorry, but getting a drop that says, warriors and engineers can turn this in for a heavy boot is just so boring.
 
Why can't we have a system instead more akin to nexus crystals where even if an item drops that isn't needed, sharding it isn't so bad?
As others have pointed out, isn't the entire point of elder gems to get things when the RNG gods are mad at you?  With the upcoming changes to AMP and Skill points, people will actually have some gems to spend on Elder Gem Items.  Let that system do its job without losing the thrill of items dropping from bosses.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
As others have pointed out, isn't the entire point of elder gems to get things when the RNG gods are mad at you?  With the upcoming changes to AMP and Skill points, people will actually have some gems to spend on Elder Gem Items.  Let that system do its job without losing the thrill of items dropping from bosses.
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{| class="blockquote"
Problem is, no one is using EG to buy the gear, because there are other upgrades with a higher priority over Loot. They have decor items as well, and I know very few people who used EG to buy those.
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Gear tokens would be nice; I was doing GA last week and on downing a boss, we sorta had to offspec all of the gear, that doesn't seem right. From my understanding they are sorta like WoW's raid tokens, giving a certain slot of gear to multiple classes. 
 
I will say though that adding tokens seems kinda needless when you have Elder Gems, why not just let them drop in some form from raid bosses and possibly dungeons, even if it was a single drop of say... 250 EG, that's a piece of gear to that lucky person (after the amps are fixed of course)	
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			My only problem with tokens is the fact that Wildstar seems heavily intent on copying wow's mechanics.	
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{| class="blockquote"
My only problem with tokens is the fact that Wildstar seems heavily intent on copying wow's mechanics.
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I'm fairly ambivalent about the token issue.  If they do go through with a token for each armor type's slot then I think they also need to ensure there are nice, non token pieces dropping also, lest they fall into the same trap SWTOR did with boring drops.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Better idea; instead of tokens drop specific items that can be crafted into raid quality gear. Can't craft the gear with-out the drop- can't get the drop but in a raid.
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I'm growing tired of comparisons between Wildstar and WoW. WoW had (and has) good things and bad things as Wildstar does.
 
In a vacuum, we should just emphasize what we consider staples in the genre itself, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
 
You want the super rare drop? No one is taking either the challenge to get it or the randomness associated to it. You were unlucky with drops? Here, have a token and get yourself something nice, cupcake.
 
I honestly don't see how this isn't anything but positive.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Lets do a little exercise: completely forget that WoW ever existed, and look at WS in the vacuum of its own design choices, and whether or not it's good the games health.
 
All this moaning and comparing to WoW... it's like sitting down to watch TV and yelling SIMPSONS DID IT every 5min.
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Tokens are sensible.  Plain and simple.  You don't get the same pair of Light DPS gloves appearing 5 raids in a row and your Light DPS players already had them after raid 2.  It means your healers can use the token to go get healing gloves and so on so the loot doesn't just get salvaged or "wasted" it will be useful to more people and can be used as the group/raid pleases.
 
You will still have your super rare weapons and non-class specific pieces etc..it's not like there will be a weapon token and you go grab your amazing weapon.  I'm sure the best of the best gear wont be tokenised and it's only class gear that will.	
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{| class="blockquote"
If they decide to bring tokens to vet dungeons i hope it wont be a daily quest reward but rather a drop from completing the dungeon / killing a boss.
 
One of the many things that made me quit Rift was that only way to get Dungeon set gear was to complete daily quests. That doesnt make effort = gear, it makes time = gear. Not in the sense that "i need a lot of time to get my gear" but rather that "it will take me 9 days worth of dailys to get that helm" which makes the cost of that helm not 40 tokens, but 9 days worth of playing Rift. I would much rather be able to sit down and get 10 tokens in one saturday than have to spread it out over X days due to daily quests.
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Why is loot even based on RNG in the first place?  I don't understand why you would make loot reliant upon RNG and then add in all these extra systems to try and mitigate the horribleness of RNG.  Why not hit the problem at the source and remove the RNG altogether?  Let people just choose what they get when the boss dies instead of adding in all these clunky systems that try to get around the fact that loot is random.  Its like somebody can't make up their mind. "We want loot to be random... but... not really..." 
 
If the goal is to eventually reward people for downing content, just add in a kill counter for each boss, and then let people buy something from his loot table after x kills.  Sure its not as exciting, but its fair to everybody and no randomness.  No crying about bad drops, no crying about loot ninjas.  Equal gear progression for equal time spent.  Any other implementation just dodges the issue.
 
Why should one medic have to run War of the Wilds two dozen times to get the epic healing resonators when someone else can come in and get it first try?  PVP gear doesn't work this way, why should PVE gear?
 
In fact, if you're really crazy, you could add in some kind of rating system similar to PVP.  Every time you clear a dungeon, your PVE dungeon rating goes up.  Getting better medals makes it go up faster.  Wiping/dying makes it go down.  Certain gear requires certain ratings and some number of boss kills to buy (or... you know... just make it cost elder gems).  Make elder gems work like prestige for PVP, and then add in a PVE rating system similar to the PVP one.  If you want the loot system to be straightforward and fair, just copy the model PVP gear is using!	
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I just refuse to believe that tokens are the only way to fix this. It's just the easiest way that's on full display *because of WoW*.
 
And that's what bothers me... that there doesn't seem to be time being spent to find a solution that works harder to preserve the unique in itemization plan for WildStar, love or hate RNG it can be awesome and very satisfying. 
 
Make fewer items drop from bosses, but make them drop every time, and then the item hunt becomes a little more manageable because you know that at least you'll have a chance at the best version your item *every* time the boss is killed.
 
Tokens just take all of the surprise and joy out of the item hunt. I hate knowing that I can buy my chest piece on October 18th. And that it will cost me precisely $23.40 in subscription time to do so.	
----
			There are two types of people, those that like getting gift cards for their birthday and those that prefer presents.  Neither is wrong, one is just more boring than the other.  This is a game, and I think we should prioritize fun over boring.	
----
			
I will answer that question professor Krakanu. Why is loot based on RNG in the first place?
 
I have use this explanation in more post that I care to admit, but let me go at it again. RNG have it's place (or should have it's place) in any type of game that the developper want you to keep on playing. CoD, they don't care. you buy once then they are happy. Subscription based MMO? You bet they need RNG.
It all come down to a Mr. B.F. Skinner. A Psychologist working in the field of the human behaviour. A lot of people knows the experiment that Mr. Pavlov did, using a bell to tell a dog that food is coming. So after a certain amount of time using the bell for food, he could now use the bell without food but the dog was still acting as if the food was there (saliva).
Well Mr Skinner push a bit the experiment. He come out with the Skinner Box. A box in which he place a pigeon and a button. When the pigeon press the button, food is drop in the box. Now, he notice that the pigeon will quickly learn to press the button, but only when hungry.
He then use the same box, except this time, the button deliver food in a random manner. sometime it work, sometime it doesnt. What did he realise: the pigeon pressed the button WAY more often, and even when not hungry.
 
Now, let's go back to MMORPG. Why do you thing RNG exist? So you still run the dungeon even if you dont need to. If you need 100 token, and the final boss give 2, you will do the dungeon 50 time then stop. If you have a 1% chance of obtaining a loot, it's prove in psychology that even after obtaining what you needed, you will continue to run the dungeon. You can disagree all you want with me, but i'm not the one saying it; I just payed attention in classes.
 
edit: BUT, dont get me wrong, CLASS TOKEN is similar to RNG. Because the drop of said token is random. So it's a smaller RNG (because yo ucut the number of different loot that drop), but the Skinner effect still apply. People will continue to run the dungeon if they want a class token to drop. I said 100token in my explanation, but what I really meant was 100 WHATVER points.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I just refuse to believe that tokens are the only way to fix this. It's just the easiest way that's on full display *because of WoW*.
 
And that's what bothers me... that there doesn't seem to be time being spent to find a solution that works harder to preserve the unique in itemization plan for WildStar, love or hate RNG it can be awesome and very satisfying. 
 
Make fewer items drop from bosses, but make them drop every time, and then the item hunt becomes a little more manageable because you know that at least you'll have a chance at the best version your item *every* time the boss is killed.
 
Tokens just take all of the surprise and joy out of the item hunt. I hate knowing that I can buy my chest piece on October 18th. And that it will cost me precisely $23.40 in subscription time to do so.
----
			But like the clown face said earlier: It was not a currency they talked about, it was token. So in fact, they are keeping the RNG system, and giving the tweak we need. It's the same as reducing the number of different drop, thus increasing the chance of drop of useful item. Don't be a hater, be a lover! :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Tokens just take all of the surprise and joy out of the item hunt. I hate knowing that I can buy my chest piece on October 18th. And that it will cost me precisely $23.40 in subscription time to do so.
----
			We already have elder gems - fix that system first! If ability and AMP upgrades aren't the only choice, a lot of options open up. You can choose gear that is unlocked by completing various vet dungeon runs for one thing. Also, gold vet runs will give you an ability unlock in the next release? That gives a lot of good reasons to work on vet dungeons for quite a while. You could also expand the elder gem limit for the week by beating raid bosses and doing vet silver and/or golds, up to a certain max cap of like 240 so its not open ended and feel necessary to do every vet, every day or week.	
----
			
Just to clarify, I'm not against tokens, I just think its a way to dodge the problem instead of taking it head on, but at the end of the day, doing anything to mitigate the awfulness of RNG drops is a step in the right direction.
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
I will answer that question professor Krakanu. Why is loot based on RNG in the first place?
 
I have use this explanation in more post that I care to admit, but let me go at it again. RNG have it's place (or should have it's place) in any type of game that the developper want you to keep on playing. CoD, they don't care. you buy once then they are happy. Subscription based MMO? You bet they need RNG.
It all come down to a Mr. B.F. Skinner. A Psychologist working in the field of the human behaviour. A lot of people knows the experiment that Mr. Pavlov did, using a bell to tell a dog that food is coming. So after a certain amount of time using the bell for food, he could now use the bell without food but the dog was still acting as if the food was there (saliva).
Well Mr Skinner push a bit the experiment. He come out with the Skinner Box. A box in which he place a pigeon and a button. When the pigeon press the button, food is drop in the box. Now, he notice that the pigeon will quickly learn to press the button, but only when hungry.
He then use the same box, except this time, the button deliver food in a random manner. sometime it work, sometime it doesnt. What did he realise: the pigeon pressed the button WAY more often, and even when not hungry.
 
Now, let's go back to MMORPG. Why do you thing RNG exist? So you still run the dungeon even if you dont need to. If you need 100 token, and the final boss give 2, you will do the dungeon 50 time then stop. If you have a 1% chance of obtaining a loot, it's prove in psychology that even after obtaining what you needed, you will continue to run the dungeon. You can disagree all you want with me, but i'm not the one saying it; I just payed attention in classes.
 
edit: BUT, dont get me wrong, CLASS TOKEN is similar to RNG. Because the drop of said token is random. So it's a smaller RNG (because yo ucut the number of different loot that drop), but the Skinner effect still apply. People will continue to run the dungeon if they want a class token to drop. I said 100token in my explanation, but what I really meant was 100 WHATVER points.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We already have elder gems - fix that system first! If ability and AMP upgrades aren't the only choice, a lot of options open up. You can choose gear that is unlocked by completing various vet dungeon runs for one thing. Also, gold vet runs will give you an ability unlock in the next release? That gives a lot of good reasons to work on vet dungeons for quite a while. You could also expand the elder gem limit for the week by beating raid bosses and doing vet silver and/or golds, up to a certain max cap of like 240 so its not open ended and feel necessary to do every vet, every day or week.
----
			
Krakanu, I have to say, you got me there with the PvP dude. Well done *remove hat*.
 
Still, it may not be REQUIRED, but it's sure a good way to keep subs in my humble opinion. But I think that thread was started on the wrong foot. Token and currency got mixed up and somehow somewhere in the thread we lost track.
 
I'm against a new currency, but it was never mention anyway. Of course they will work on their Elder Gem before implementing something else. I'm for token, or any change that reduce the RNG drop but keep the core mechanic of RNG. It is keeping the joy of having your piece of gear drop (the token), but reduce the wasted salvage of raid and vet gear.
 
Thumbs up Carbine, keep up the good work.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Why do +1800 rated pvp players continue to PVP (or whatever the max rating is to buy all the pvp gear)?  They got their rewards in a non-random way.  I don't think randomness is needed to keep people playing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 It is keeping the joy of having your piece of gear drop (the token), but reduce the wasted salvage of raid and vet gear.
----
			It's an interesting system indeed.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think you are still thinking of the wrong type of tokens.  You aren't getting so many tokens per boss, and trading them in for the piece of gear you want.  You are getting a Light Armor Glove token, or a Heavy Armor Chest token, and then trading that in for an item in that slot of that armor type.  It also is only for the class bound items, there should still be a lot of non set items that will make loot drops interesting.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, I understand the system he's talking about... but I am conflating the discussion because I feel its a stepping stone to the next. I want to have that discussion before any real decisions about this are made.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I just refuse to believe that tokens are the only way to fix this. It's just the easiest way that's on full display *because of WoW*.
 
And that's what bothers me... that there doesn't seem to be time being spent to find a solution that works harder to preserve the unique in itemization plan for WildStar, love or hate RNG it can be awesome and very satisfying. 
 
Make fewer items drop from bosses, but make them drop every time, and then the item hunt becomes a little more manageable because you know that at least you'll have a chance at the best version your item *every* time the boss is killed.
 
Tokens just take all of the surprise and joy out of the item hunt. I hate knowing that I can buy my chest piece on October 18th. And that it will cost me precisely $23.40 in subscription time to do so.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I guess I just don't see one inevitably leading to the other, and I feel like it would be more productive to have a discussion about the merits and pitfalls of what was proposed instead of what might follow after it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, and that's really why I started the original topic and provided some alternative solutions to it, with the desire for discussion and feedback. But what's next is next, and by nature it's part of the same discussion. This isn't my first rodeo :)
----
			I don't like tokens because then you pretty much have to memorize the items they exchange for.  When something drops in a raid I should just be able to mouse over it and see the comparison with what I have equipped.  	
----
			
Really looking forward to this change as are most of my guildmates I've spoken with this about, so in all I think its a very positive move on the developers part.
 
Rather than changing existing poorly itemized gear or introducing new gear with better itemization, you roll out a patch drop where all the gear adheres to the new standards for runeslots and adjust the bonuses to be more appropriate on gear you exchange for tokens with much less RNG, the content is hard enough that it serves as its own time sink.
 
I do like the suggestion for crafted patterns to combine said tokens with to create the gear, That can be acquired via elder gems or via a crafting profession player(using materials acquired from level appropriate adventure, dungeons, raids), maybe finally introduce Implants to the technologists as well.
 
With the new Bronze attunement requirements and Gold gaining AMP/Ability points, Perhaps Silver and Gold could be increased chances to earn these patterns or tokens to exchange for the patterns or to receive materials to craft base templates with.  Doing that would offer an incentive for players to continue to run Adventures and Dungeons after attunement as well.
 
While your talking Tokens the same could be applied to current PvP vendors, rather than simply earning prestige pieces could require X tokens earned for Walatiki/Bloodsworn/Daggerstone matches to get PvPers to play more than what nets them prestige fastest.
 
Ultimately tokens punish you less for RNG, are easier to itemize for(not to mention balance content around), and can be used as an incentive tool to encourage player behavior in desirable ways, There is a reason it works well for games like WoW, and I never saw tokens as a detrimental factor on the content in WoW, It was the constant slimming down of raid sizes, reducing the difficulty of content, making all previous content obsolete and meaningless and promotion of the PUG gaming with no consequences for being a prick, that made WoW not fun or challenging.  Wildstar still has the larger raid sizes(unless they keep bleeding subscribers, from other bad mechanics to the point they cant support that), the dungeons and raids are challenging even at lower levels,  the legendary items have imbuements which permit for new imbuements to be added to them in the future to avoid obsoleting previous accomplishments, and does not have a LFR tool.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I don't like tokens because then you pretty much have to memorize the items they exchange for.  When something drops in a raid I should just be able to mouse over it and see the comparison with what I have equipped.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are two types of people, those that like getting gift cards for their birthday and those that prefer presents.  Neither is wrong, one is just more boring than the other.  This is a game, and I think we should prioritize fun over boring.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are two types of people, those that like getting gift cards for their birthday and those that prefer presents.  Neither is wrong, one is just more boring than the other.  This is a game, and I think we should prioritize fun over boring.
----
			
Seeing how many people are happy to have armor precursors (I prefer them call that to avoid confusion with tokens like Valor Points) I think we will be seeing them implemented. Which is unfortunate.
 
I agree that getting useless drops from raid bosses is a pure frustration and the readiness to trade the joy from getting a ready-to-put on armor piece for a precursor is also understandable.
 
What I am (and I think many of those, who are against precursors) trying to say is that Carbine really doesn't have to go that route, which seems rushed, a band-aid quick fix solution. It blindly copies what other MMORPGs are doing with the way loot is distributed.
 
And from that point it's not that we'll be getting precursors instead of actual armor pieces that is more disappointing, but the readiness to go the easier way to bring convenience instead of improving upon the design most of other MMORPGs go with without hesitation. Now that doesn't mean the system should never be changed, but I firmly believe Carbine shouldn't be so hasty with changing systems like that, especially when the proposed change is a complete copy of a system that does have it's own negative impact.
 
To add a little substance to what I am saying instead of only criticizing I think there are at least a few ideas that should be used instead one way or another:
For example in another topic there was a suggestion to make armor precursors be a necessary crafting material, that with help of one (or several, f.ex. refined cloth from tailors and refined leather from outfitters,s o the guild is involved) crafting skills the much needed item can be created.
Another idea was to make useless drops be salvaged for a specific reagent, and you would need 2 useless drops to trade for a useful armor piece. That way there is still that "being lucky" part present, there are still actual treasures instead of precursors that NPCs need for some reason or magically turn into a real treasure in an instant, yet the whole raid will never be frustrated over completely useless drops.
I'm a scientist and have no experience in creating games, but I think people who are working in Carbine Studios can improve those rough suggestions or come up with smarted ideas. 
In fact, simple copying of the precursor way of loot distribution will still bring frustration of the same level when a heavy armor gloves precursor nobody needs even for an off-spec drops from a boss. I am fairly sure every raider experienced that. So why go with a quick fix when there is likely a way to avoid that frustration completely and even grow to be a better game through implementing a smarter system?
 
Bring crafters into play! Bring incentive to interact more with people and less with NPCs that will quietly let you swap a precursor for a gear piece you want. That way you'll make much more people engaged into gearing up process that happens even outside of raid instances. And do I need to mention that the more incentives there to interact with other players, the stronger the guild/game community will be? Sure, making crafting involved will take more time, but in the long run it will let Wildstar shine while other games go with the same dull system.
 
And by making, f.ex. two useless drops be equal to one useful with the help of crafters you'll still keep that "Yay! I'm so lucky today to get this armor!" feeling, remove the frustration from drops being absolutely useless and, what is most important, will keep the philosophy of Wildstar not being all about player convenience, not about making players happy all the way from login to logout and zealously avoiding things that might make players unhappy. THAT is what Blizzard been doing all that time, make everyone happy, remove all kind of frustrating elements of the game. I was hoping Wildstar developers know that negative feelings are as valuable as positive ones when one wants to make gameplay exciting, bright and eventful.
 
P.S. Thank you for reading the whole post.	
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Seeing how many people are happy to have armor precursors (I prefer them call that to avoid confusion with tokens like Valor Points) I think we will be seeing them implemented. Which is unfortunate.
 
I agree that getting useless drops from raid bosses is a pure frustration and the readiness to trade the joy from getting a ready-to-put on armor piece for a precursor is also understandable.
 
What I am (and I think many of those, who are against precursors) trying to say is that Carbine really doesn't have to go that route, which seems rushed, a band-aid quick fix solution that has absolutely nothing of that Wildstar spirit. It blindly copies what other MMORPGs are doing with the way loot is distributed.
 
And from that point it's not that we'll be getting precursors instead of actual armor pieces that is more disappointing, but the change of the game's core system that makes the whole game less unique. Now that doesn't mean the system should never be changed, but I firmly believe Carbine shouldn't be so hasty with changing systems like that, especially when the proposed change is a complete copy of a system that does have it's own negative impact.
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I think it would be enlightening if you went into more detail about what you think WIldstar would lose by consolidating loot drops into armor precursors, or at least what you think the negative impact is.
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			Yes i wonder why they didn't add it from start. This is like staple feature now days.	
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Wasting the opportunity to bring crafting into the end-game gameplay.
Wasting the opportunity to induce player-player interaction, while adding player-NPC interaction.
Demonstration of the design direction of making the game more convenient not in a clever and engaging way, but through simplification.
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			Tokens are a good idea. Not everbody likes the idea of getting nothing after using their time and effort to finish a dungeon/raid only because the Random Number Gods decided that they would 'surprise' you with a useless item. Tokens allow people to know exactly how far they are from getting their upgrade. RNG is only a good idea to those who are (or wish to be) on the "blessed" side of the statistic.	
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Yeah, I am not a fan of tokens at all.  We already have an Elder Gem system that sells raid gear, and I really sort of enjoyed parts of the RNG nature of Wildstar's itemization because there was always room for improvement.  Either better gems or slightly better stat balance (assuming they fix it so that AP isn't the only stat worth getting). 
 
If they're going to implement armor tokens for gloves, boots, whatever, I'll deal but then the vendor that you trade that item into needs to be some kind of crazy awesome crafter NPC with a whole backstory and quest line you have to complete to unlock his services.  Once unlocked he can retrofit your busted Eldan artifact into something you can use, maybe require some easy to acquire crafting materials as part of the turn in to raise the value of these mats (raw ore/leather/cloth) because the market is pretty much flooded with this stuff.  Maybe throw in a Challenge you have to complete when turning it in.	
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			It's not valor points but Tier tokens for class set loot, but probably won't bother repeating that anymore as people still won't get that.	
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i dont really want tokens either.
 
loot on a schedule is not interesting or fun in any way.
 
I suppose if there was a whole, minor tier of loot, that used tokens that would be one thing, but if everything that can drop, can be bought with tokens, or if tokens are the reason I am raiding .. i dont find that enjoyable. one of the reasons I dont play wow much anymore. token system just made the whole loot system feel very uninspiring.	
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It's not valor points but Tier tokens for class set loot, but probably won't bother repeating that anymore as people still won't get that.
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i dont really want tokens either.
 
loot on a schedule is not interesting or fun in any way.
 
I suppose if there was a whole, minor tier of loot, that used tokens that would be one thing, but if everything that can drop, can be bought with tokens, or if tokens are the reason I am raiding .. i dont find that enjoyable. one of the reasons I dont play wow much anymore. token system just made the whole loot system feel very uninspiring.
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It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then.
 
It's not fun.
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There are two types of people, those that like getting gift cards for their birthday and those that prefer presents.  Neither is wrong, one is just more boring than the other.  This is a game, and I think we should prioritize fun over boring.
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Literally the post right above yours explains what they mean by token. It isn't "collect 30 tokens to exchange for gloves." It's "this boss drops a single token that you can turn in for light armor gloves."
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It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then.
 
It's not fun.
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Today on Nexus Weekly, Evan Graziano talked about some desire to implement some form of token currency.  This is presumably so that players get "something" instead of nothing for every effort.
 
The problem with tokens is that they're not fun. There's no "surprise" in them. It's not interesting saving up tokens and predicting exactly specifically when you'll have X piece of gear. That's boring.
 
WildStar's itemization is one of the most interesting in the genre… some may dislike the RNG and perhaps it was little heavy handed. It works better in a game like Diablo because there's constant loot dropping and you're not reliant on other players and an hour or more of gameplay for just a chance at something thou want.
 
But as Carbine works toward more and more predictability with gear, and set numbers of slots and now tokens, it's taking what was interesting about WildStar's itemization away.
 
Alternatives? I'd prefer to see a solution where the loot tables might be trimmed (as he mentioned) but maybe *all* loot would drop from the boss every time… then, the act of running a dungeon again to get a better roll on an item wouldn't seem as daunting since you know that at the very least the item will drop.
 
 Anyway, just wanted to drop this here for Evan and his team because… well I just think tokens and other alternative currencies are the quickest way to turn fun into a chore.  Getting the item is always going to be more fun than saving for it.
 
Thanks,
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What good is equipping it right then if it's totally wrong for your build, unusable by your class, worse than what you already have, or whatever?
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			Adventure/Dungeon/Raid currency along with RNG drops. Why not? Failed at rng fallback to vendor with tokens. Same as EG, but specififc for every adventure/dungeon/raid.	
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I understand your concern, I personally am one voting for the token system... After running Wotw 45 times and only seeing my tanking claws drop once (which were stollen by the dps stalker) it got very frusterating.  I think that there should be gold tokens, silver, and bronze... so the best item requires gold tokens to buy.
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It's still less fun getting a token and then having to go to a freaking vendor to pick up your item. You cannot equip it right then.
 
It's not fun.
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