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I think that's assuming a few too many zero's  :lol:
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			Stop using imaginary hypotheticals to back your argument up. Use facts. I'll wait.	
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We did get a post back during the dip in population (when I believe it was at its lowest) that Wildstar had hundreds of thousands of accounts.
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Stop using imaginary hypotheticals to back your argument up. Use facts. I'll wait.
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			Hypothetically, what if my idea worked perfectly and Wildstar was saved?	
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Hypothetically, what if my idea worked perfectly and Wildstar was saved?
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The one where magically Wildstar gains 100 million players and they can all play for free because of all the ad money Pizza Hut and Pepsi are throwing at Carbine. In fact, if we are allowed to just make up perfect hypothetical situations why not take it a step further? They make so much in ad revenue that they're even able to PAY players to play the game!
 
Hypothetically, what if we were able to build a time machine and travel back to when Carbine was still developing Wildstar. What if were able to warn them about all of the issues that will happen, and then they fixed them all before launch and Wildstar gets released and it's perfect and everyone loves it and it dethrones WoW and is the best MMO ever made?
 
Hypotheticals are fun.	
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They make so much in ad revenue that they're even able to PAY players to play the game!
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Actually, there's a pretty obvious flaw in that argument, if you'd like to hear it.  Galerade.  There are, in fact, vending machines all over Nexus and one of them is a reference and ripoff of Gatorade.  Why should Galerade be able to exist on Nexus, and not Pepsi?  Surely, product placement, drink vending machines, branding, and billboards ALL exist on Nexus already.  Not only that, but plenty of products from the real world that make no other applicable sense exist on Nexus.  Are we pretending that the Exiles aren't a complete reference back to a few decades of the western United States?  We've got massive old-school spinning revolvers for just that reason, though revolvers are even today outmoded as handguns.
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The one where magically Wildstar gains 100 million players and they can all play for free because of all the ad money Pizza Hut and Pepsi are throwing at Carbine. In fact, if we are allowed to just make up perfect hypothetical situations why not take it a step further? They make so much in ad revenue that they're even able to PAY players to play the game!
 
Hypothetically, what if we were able to build a time machine and travel back to when Carbine was still developing Wildstar. What if were able to warn them about all of the issues that will happen, and then they fixed them all before launch and Wildstar gets released and it's perfect and everyone loves it and it dethrones WoW and is the best MMO ever made?
 
Hypotheticals are fun.
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I woudnt mind if Wildstar has both sub based system and cash shop (aslong as there are only cosmetic and convinience items).
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			I woudnt mind if Wildstar has both sub based system and cash shop (aslong as there are only cosmetic and convinience items).	
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I woudnt mind if Wildstar has both sub based system and cash shop (aslong as there are only cosmetic and convinience items).
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I woudnt mind if Wildstar has both sub based system and cash shop (aslong as there are only cosmetic and convinience items).
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That was something else I touched on.  I said they could introduce a cash shop even with very intricate items like housing fabkits, mounts, costume pieces, whatever they'd feasibly like.  Then, you give it to the people who are subscribed.  They do that already for our sub rewards, but doing it once every month or so is more of a reward for being around for the patch.  They could reward us monthly, if not more often, with great items.
 
Then, open the shop and sell things for real money to people who start the game later, see something they like, and want it.  Right now, those people have no recourse.  Travis T wanted my Highwayman's Boots, but those were only available to players around at headstart.  We think they're so common (everyone's got that set it seems), but Travis didn't.  He certainly might pay for the costume.
 
Apply that to things like the beret, head wrap, etc., then to even better items like those I described.  People feel like they want something monthly for their sub, and that's a good way to start.  Make sure that if you sub in on the month, you get the reward, then add it to a cash shop after.  That way, if you are always subbed, you always get everything (as it is now) and if you come in later, those items are not necessarily blocked from you (they are, in effect, exclusive in the opposite direction).  Plus, you can give away REALLY good and desireable things that will sell well later and will keep current subscribers happy.
 
It won't net an absolute ton of money, but it would encourage people to sub in monthly and would essentially encourage people to "pay into" months they weren't around.  It wouldn't work on its own, but it would generate a little extra revenue and hopefully keep a few subs around that might drop off between patches if they're not coming monthly anymore.  The major criticism of it seemed to be a "slippery slope" argument that they would obviously eventually put something in there that was exclusive to get that money.  But no one seemed to have a problem with it as a supplementary income plan as I had described it.
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That idea is pretty okay. I still think we shouldn't go for it because of the slippery slope you mentioned: it's very easy for businesses to decide they'd rather make the money the easy way. Most cash shops always seem to end having a large influx of exclusive items sooner or later.
Champions Online had something similar: for each month, they gave you an 'stipend' you could spend in the cash shop. Something like 4 dollars worth of cash shop stuff, I believe. It was pretty okay until you watched carefully as they started releasing more and more things for the cash shop that were suspiciously out of reach of the stipend. 
 
So there's not only a slippery slope, there's also a history of people eventually jumping head first to slip across that slope.
 
On another note:
 
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The Galerade example is perfectly apt, because Galerade would not exist in Wildstar if Gatorade weren't a product on Earth.  It's exactly the same.  To think Galerade can exist in make-believe land but Gatorade would be a step too far because it exists (the way a lot of things in Wildstar exist on Earth) is selective.  If that product were called SportsSlurp, you might be able to make that argument.  However, no one saw Galerade and though "this is a product which has no connection to Earth".  Every single person that saw it knew that it was Gatorade with a few letters swapped out.  If that didn't break your immersion, an actual Gatorade machine doesn't seem able to.  The hair splitting to call that the very line where the game reaches into implausibility when a space-faring factions of people who've been flying around for the better part of three centuries so directly reference the American west of the late 1800s simply doesn't seem rational.
 
Change those letters, and Gatorade exists on Nexus as well.  Whether you'd like that idea or not (and you're permitted to not like it), it's not logical to say that the existence of all these Earth references are perfectly fine, but if that machine actually said Gatorade, whether it was supposed to be that Earth beverage or a parallel-universe equivalent or whatever way it might get there, you're bleeding into impossibility.  I mean, the race of people on Nexus are called humans.  That didn't send you into a fit of rage?  Humans are most certainly from Earth.
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Except that I very clearly explained that a LOT of things that would not be likely, in any way, to exist in an alien society but exist on Earth exist in Nexus.  The entire notion of a cowboy in space has a long tradition in sci-fi (just as much as, yes, real world products in sci-fi, real brand names were all over Shadowrun).  That's been explained and I've intentionally made the point (in the post you quoted) that it just doesn't make any sense.  
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The Wildstar universe has "humans" because it's a very hard sell without them.  As popular as Aurin and Chua are, players wouldn't have given this game a second look if it didn't have humans.  Same goes for Star Wars.  
 
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The aliens that are the focus of the story are recognizably similar in their biology and cultural development, but they are clearly not Earthlings and have developed cultures that are clearly not Earth's cultures. They are recognizably similar but they are also recognizably distinct. This is the type of narrative setting of Wildstar, or Star Wars, or Dune.
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The Wildstar universe has "humans" because it's a very hard sell without them.  As popular as Aurin and Chua are, players wouldn't have given this game a second look if it didn't have humans.  Same goes for Star Wars.  
 
 
Actually, IIRC, Dune is a far future story of our own universe as there are references to Earth cultures in some of the later books.  But the point about the setting being distinct enough from modern day Earth is still a valid argument against product placement.
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Second, you're applying, I think, a completely ineffective model.  Internet advertising is sold in bulk like that because it's in banners and sidebars that are easily ignored and often only one in a few actual website hits are in fact people who will see ads.  Think about television.  Even shows with only a little over a million viewers can sell ad space at a higher rate than that because of the manner in which it is presented.  In fact, companies will often pay millions to fund television projects not even to have commercials, but to have their products used in them.  For example, Grimm prominently displays Apple desktops, Iphones, and Ipads all over their show.  They're even credited at the end of it.  It's why you often see shots of the characters taking pictures with the phones or propping them up so everyone can see.  That's where advertisement went after the airwave prices started to peak out, they simply cut out the middleman and put the products in the shows and movies.
 
Essentially, they can put that kind of product placement into a game and we'll see it even more often.  If there's a Pepsi billboard in Thayd, for example, it doesn't have to move or be presented, it's there whenever you walk into Thayd and stand around.  So yes, I think it's worth more than the ad banner on a porn website or a click monkey game.
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That idea is pretty okay. I still think we shouldn't go for it because of the slippery slope you mentioned: it's very easy for businesses to decide they'd rather make the money the easy way. Most cash shops always seem to end having a large influx of exclusive items sooner or later.
Champions Online had something similar: for each month, they gave you an 'stipend' you could spend in the cash shop. Something like 4 dollars worth of cash shop stuff, I believe. It was pretty okay until you watched carefully as they started releasing more and more things for the cash shop that were suspiciously out of reach of the stipend. 
 
So there's not only a slippery slope, there's also a history of people eventually jumping head first to slip across that slope.
 
On another note:
 
 
Those are not really comparable. Humans are called humans for the same reason everyone in the game speaks english: it's very hard to invent a language. It's even harder and outright silly to ask every player to learn that language in order to understand your game unless that's what your game is about. Is Wildstar about languages? No, it is not. It's about space cowboys, getting loot and killing things that give loot. Also probably some precursor race. Maybe!
 
Yet we can infer that the Wildstar universe has it's own languages (and there are some direct references on it in various pieces of lore). The fact that Wildstar humans are called humans has nothing to do with them 'humans' deciding to call themselves exactly that or speaking english. It has to do with the little fact that if Wildstar characters didn't speak in a real world language, then no player would be able to comprehend them. But in universe all those humans do not speak english. We just get some sort of perfect translation, if you will.
 
We can say the same happens with Gatorade and Galerade: it's an easter egg, a play on words made by the 'perfect translator' because it found it too funny to pass up. We can do the same with every other easter egg and reference to the real world (unless it's tied to the game's themes. Then it's a bit harder to know what to do with that. But those are still not a real world drink.)
 
Of course, this might all be irrelevant. Pappy said in one thread that the traditional Chua language was Esperanto, I believe. I kind of wanted to facepalm at that.
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Believe me, I get if people don't like that idea on its own merits, but saying it's ludicrous because Pepsi doesn't exist and it's immersion breaking is simply subjective, not logical, in this case.  Lots of things were moved from Earth to Nexus that we don't bat an eye at, lots of references are made to things that only exist on Earth so we're constantly reminded of Earth.
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Providing a comfortable frame of reference is one thing.  Using it to hawk immersion breaking products is another thing entirely.  When it comes to funding models I claim that far more people are cash shop tolerant than those that will put up with in game advertising.
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Providing a comfortable frame of reference is one thing.  Using it to hawk immersion breaking products is another thing entirely.  When it comes to funding models I claim that far more people are cash shop tolerant than those that will put up with in game advertising.
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In fact, there's a very good counterpoint.  Starcraft also has humans, but calls them Terrans.  There are a lot of games that call humans something else.  They are not called humans because that's what it is in our language, they're called humans because they're being transposed, lock, stock, and barrel, to a different setting and yet remaining entirely recognizeable.  If Wildstar wanted to really avoid that, they could have done a Galerade, or called them something entirely different, or more noticeably not included a "human" race in the game.
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*walks into thread*
 
Oh what is going on in here? Off topic much?	
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			zomg SO off topic.  :lol:	
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Replying from my phone to you, Yasfan, so bear with me. The terran point is part of the overarching point I made with all of those examples. There are times where humans from Earth have been called something else, transposed humans are called that on other world, and where humanoid creatures were called humans. So if Carbine wanted to call them something different to differentiate them, or not include them at all. They did, and obviously you see the word human, the race human, and yet you yourself can say with no irony that such a feat of biological luck as that makes sense, along with the idea of soda pop being on Nexus, but not that Pepsi exists?
 
This is a subjective opinion. Dumsters do actually have a non-technical name (skip), for example. And there are a lot of places, here in Ohio for example, that asking for a coke means any cola drink anywhere. There is no logical way these words make it to Nexus. The assumption is that they arrived at the idea and translated it into something we meager Earthlings would understand.
 
Then why NOT Pepsi? If we have to accept that Cassus went through an analogous period of time where some very specific cultural elements were completely the same, the idea of Cassus being Earth left ambiguous, I cant see how strange it would be to think that a certain soda production company was similarly analogously existing. Logically, that is a lot more plausible that 1880s America having also existed similarly on Cassus. Essentially, they expect us to swallow a lot more than that to accept the premise of these cultural elements.
 
Which we do. Obviously. We dont have a problem with that because we are programmed to receive that information differently than branding. Thats not a logical idea, thats a subjective and cultural one. You have been essentially been taught by a lifetime of narrative teaching that Pepsi cant exist, but entire transposed cultures can be. If a similarly branded soda company named Pepsi being on Nexus is truly beyond the possibility of comprehension, you have already unconsciously made some FAR greater logical leaps than that to not have an issue with any of these elements.
 
Essentially, the name of Pepsi existing in both places is more rational an inclusion than the existence of soda, existence of sucrose consumption, and the existence of a physiologically identical race of people which you are assuming came to being on a completely different planet with a similar cultural background to here. All this stuff exists, it does seem irrational to then assume that a company making this stuff might share a name and brand with something on Earth.
 
The orders of magnitude here simply dont add up in your point if your general point is that Pepsi cannot exist within the referential framework of the game as we know it. It doesnt seem any less plausible than what is happening in the game now. And that is the difference. You are making a point about logic and reality that is disagree with. "Impossible" is an absolute term, "inappropriate" is not. You can subjectively think that Pespi shouldnt be there because it crosses a personal boundary of perception and reality. You wouldnt be alone. But you cant make an absolute and logical assessment that it cannot make rational sense when you are arguing that a lot of things that make a lot less sense can perfectly exist for game purposes.
 
That may be why you keep getting into these arguments. There is a difference between opinion and absolutes, and i think you undervalue the former. You want it to not make sense regardless of it making perfect sense (I mean, fair point if we get a lore blurb saying Cassus was called Earth a thousand years ago, but in the greater context of your argument, you think the name and brand of Pepsi would logically outlive the name of the planet?) But in the context of this discussion, your opinion would hold more weight than trying to argue a rational progression.
 
In essence, saying, "To me, it seems too similar to our world in a way a cowboy doesnt, and thats just how i feel" is absolutely relevant to the discussion. Its the absolutes that make your argument irreconcilable. Factually, the Pepsi brand would be a blip in the amount of cultural transition you make just to immerse yourself in Nexus. Subjectively, it doesnt matter how probable any of it is, perception is reality. Thats why Johns argument is what it is, and is 100% applicable.
 
In regards to Nietzche, hes often severely misunderstood by people who know him through Wikipedia, but his fault was always misunderstanding the nature of social animals. He imagined the world to be in a sort of tension where all things were competition. I just think his choleric disposition colored his work, especially his later work.
 
Not every instance of dissonance necessarily equated to a struggle, essentially. Take this conversation. I continue it and enjoy it for intellectual reasons, certainly ill only check this and coffee today on my phone. I enjoy talking about hypotheticals and ideas with broader implications in gaming. But once I post, it stays there. PlasmaJohn and I disagree here, for example, but he is one of my best friends in this game, his opinion is both valued and respected by me, and his posts anywhere else dont carry this weight.
 
If I was to hate him because we dont agree on a hypothetical point about advertising as a possible revenue stream in an MMORPG, that means there is a problem with me, not him. Nietzche said we should be at each others throats. I say we shouldnt. That ephemeral power is not substantive. You cant win the internet, so to try is folly.	
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Replying from my phone to you, Yasfan, so bear with me. 
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