Report 1071

Report #1071
Skillset: Aethercraft Skill: Empath
 Org: Hartstone Status: Rejected Dec 2015
Furies' Decision:
This is a decisive benefit for having large ships and we do not agree that it
needs to be removed. A number of co-ordinated ships attacking a behemoth
effectively will be able to bring it down, but it is not meant to be easy.
Problem: Turret damage provides a flat amount of damage, that is dependant on
neither the firing ship nor the ship being attacked. This damage is around 500
per successful hit. Empath hull repairing, on the other hand, has a large
percentile element. Ships repair approximatly 1/5th their hull plus 200 points
each grid repair. This leads to a situation where very large ships can fail to
grid repair hull for very long periods of time without falling behind on curing
hull damage. These behemoths can repair critical modules, cure ship afflictions,
and still outpace the damage of multiple attacking ships with the same (or
fewer) total crew. This centralizes aetherflare mechanics around megaships when
they are present.
Solution #1: Lower the percentile healing and increase the flat healing. I
 suggest ~1/10% + 800 points.
Solution #2: Institute a tiered softcap on hull.
Solution #3:
Player Comments:
---[Raeri on 12/13 @ 10:54 writes]:
Would it not also be workable to change turret hits to incorporate a % element?
---[Raeri on 12/13 @ 10:54 writes]:
To clarify: I'm thinking of the possible PVE implications behind the above
change
---[Enyalida on 12/13 @ 19:15 writes]:
So, my suggested healing formula pivots around a hull of about 8000 points.
Ships below that will experience stronger healing, ships above weaker. Most
ships used for aetherbashing are below the 8k mark, so they will experience
stronger hull repairs. However, (unlike increasing turret damage,) they will not
generate essence any faster.
---[Enyalida on 12/13 @ 19:19 writes]:
I haven't had a chance to sit down and think out some example math for my second
solution. Again, taking ships of about 7000-8000 hull as a center point: if
after ~7000 hull each new room only adds half as much hull, with further
halvings every 2k hull or so we can expect practical caps (I think) of about
16-17k hull, as rooms quickly will add only one point of hull. For the sake of
completeness, there should probably also be a hardcap at some point. I also
previously had a third solution on this report that included an option for %
damage to ships (but not aetherbeasts). It would function similarily to bombard
(and require you to not be bombading), would tie up your turret balances (so
fewer/no ship afflictions), but would deal exponentially more damage to a ship
the larger it is and the more disabled it already is.
---[Enyalida on 12/13 @ 19:21 writes]:
I think that the first two solutions are a good first step even without bore
(solution 3). The first solution does not solve the issue, it merely raises the
floor of the problematic range to ships with far higher hull (twice as high-
ish). The second solution then tackles the ceiling, hopefully bringing it down
below the floor, closing the problem range tidily.
---[Lerad on 12/14 @ 15:41 writes]:
Personally, I prefer Raeri's suggestion to add a % element to turret firing
instead.
---[Tredian on 12/15 @ 12:00 writes]:
Just affect turret damage on ships would not definitely not affect PVE anymore.
Converting this formula to turret damage, I get 500 per turret damage on 6k
hull, which decreases with less hull. Forcing 500 per turret damage to be
minumum, I get approximately per turret damage = 0.0171x + 460, where x is hull.
The new formula makes it so that 20k hull needs only >6 turrets to take down,
where current formula requires >9.2 turrets. I am in support of the concept
behind this report.
---[Enyalida on 12/17 @ 19:40 writes]:
I'd rather just tackle the problem on the empathing side of things. Changing
turret formulas will have some alternative effects, it's not quite the same
thing as running similar math on the empath/hull side. I don't really see any
advantages to putting that change on turrets.
---[Synkarin on 12/19 @ 21:31 writes]:
I don't understand why this nerf is needed. Doesn't everyone have access to
giant ships now a days? Isn't it still possible to overwhelm a giant ship with
good strategy? I just don't see any reason for this report other than a general
dislike of the aethercombat strategy with giant ships involved. It's really a
huge nerf to grid healing for any ship with over 8k hull, especially ships at
the upper bound of ship hull
---[Synkarin on 12/19 @ 21:33 writes]:
To be clear, you're balancing around 8k, when the max hull a ship can acheive is
over 8 times that.
---[Enyalida on 12/21 @ 19:00 writes]:
I'm aware, the point is to lower the upper bounds of practical and actual ship
hull. Having massive hull removes the 'strategy' portion of aethercombat for
those massive ships, as they can easily repair ship afflictions and module
damage while staying well ahead of incoming damage due to the large scalar
portion of empath healing. I'm balancing around 8k hull because that is the
point at which a ship can currently heal the damage of a single other ship
attacking them (directly to the hull) in a deadspace with no turret misfires. My
solutions maintain this as the pivot point. Larger ships will still outpace that
damage with healing (on top of requiring more damage to destroy), smaller ships
will still not outpace the damage (on top of requiring less damage), the
difference will just be dramatically smaller.
---[Enyalida on 12/21 @ 19:08 writes]:
To be clear, no it isn't reasonably possible to overwhelm a giant ship with good
strategy. They can use many grid balances to repair your ship afflictions and
module damage, only needing to grid repair very infrequently. A ship with 64000
hull (8000 * 8) heals ~13000 hull health every grid repair. This means that they
need to successfully grid repair once every 26 successful turret hits directly
to their hull (not their shield) to maintain stable hull. After you factor in
turret misses, the turret balances needed to deal ship afflictions, and turrets
targeting modules, the number of turret balances required to damage - Note I
said 'damage', not 'destroy', I mean literally to make their hull trend
downwards - balloons even further into absurdity.
---[Synkarin on 12/22 @ 03:06 writes]:
1) Getting a giant ship is pratical - at least 3 orgs (if not more) have a giant
ship they can use, others with ships with decent amount of hull strength. 2)
Using ship afflictions and good strategy, it is indeed possible to take down
giant ships. It's been done before through various means.. Sure, a ship with 8k
hull shouldn't be able to drop a ship with 64k hull with ease, but that only
makes sense. It's possible to bring multiple ships to a flare as well, adding
even in more turrets. I don't agree with this solution, it's quite a large nerf,
too heavy handed, and it doesn't seem very well founded or researched.
---[Enyalida on 12/22 @ 06:11 writes]:
Indeed it is... My solutions make large ships impractical, they lower the upper
bounds of practical ship hulls. You'd need to bring approximatly 9 ships with
three turrets firing to outpace the healing of a single ship with 64k hull
(assuming no turrets ever miss). Your points 1 and 2 are either irrelevant or
are not born out by the math.
---[Enyalida on 12/22 @ 06:14 writes]:
Remember, at that much hull you need 26 turret hits to equal a single grid heal.
That's ~26 people locked into turrets. Obviously, not all of the mega ships have
64k hull, but there isn't anything technically stopping anyone from getting
there - as you've pointed out.
---[Enyalida on 12/22 @ 06:17 writes]:
I'm curious what research you think would be adequate, actually.
---[Synkarin on 12/24 @ 17:27 writes]:
Yes, You are right, if you do nothing but just fire at the ship, you are
unlikely to bring down the big ships. This should be expected and where good
strategy comes in. You are simply ignoring the fact that you can use varying
tactics to slow down grid curing, and overwhelm a single ship with afflictions.
I've been on both ends of taking down big ships, and being taken down in a big
ship (and there was not '9 ship' and we had a good empath). It IS possible to
overwhelm a giant ship. You also have the option of getting your own giant ship.
We've finally gotten to the point where you've established that you really just
want to limit how high a ship's hull can reach (which last I checked, does
actually have a hardcap) rather than adjust to the new strategies employed. This
seems to be a reaction to not wanting to adjust to the changing face of
aethercombat rather than an actual balance concern.
---[Synkarin on 12/24 @ 17:33 writes]:
By the way, this isn't a simple math equation, This is a system where you can
apply aeon-like effects, cause failures, target specific modules, use
ruptures/shockwaves, deadspace etc. Applying straight math isn't an actual
reflection of the system and doesn't lend any actual validity to your
statements. It shouldn't be easy for a small ship to take down a big ship. It
should take work. You can also get other big ships to fight big ships. You have
a varying tactics that can be adjusted to the exact situation that's in play.
---[Enyalida on 12/25 @ 20:19 writes]:
I am not ignoring that fact, it is the central point of the problem statement: A
small or medium ship loses hull when they need to spend balances on curing
afflictions. The 8k hull ship who can balance out turret damage with grid
healing will die in short order because there is a lot more that they need to be
spending those balances on. It's an issue where you get to the point where you
can neglect healing hull for tremendous amounts of time (spending those balances
to cure ship afflictions and module damage) and still maintain stable hull
because that one hull heal repairs so much more than the hull repairs of the 8k
hull ship. All of those strategies quickly begin to fade away when you have
dozens of balances to deal with them before you have to worry about your hull
trending downwards at all - especially when you factor in that turrets doing
those afflictions are not doing hull damage (or are doing less hull damage).
That I "really just want to limit how high a ship's hull can reach" was no
secret: that's solution 2. As I said in my comments, the double whammy of
reducing the percentile portion of hull healing and reducing the amount of hull
ships have (And can possibly have) all around will help avoid ships that can
ignore both damage and ship afflictions by virtue of overwhelming hull repairs.
---[Enyalida on 12/25 @ 20:25 writes]:
Again, to reiterate: In the case of a ship with 64k hull, the empath only needs
to repair the hull once every ~25 successful turret hits to the hull, that
aren't reduced by the shield or target any modules. If they do so, they incur
zero net hull damage over that period. That's ~24 balances in which they can
cure away ship afflictions and module damage with no opportunity cost. This
effectivly negates the impact of those afflictions, as their point is to force
healing away from the hull. The massive ship can basically ignore the hull
damage for huge stretches of time, removing the biggest element of strategy from
aethercombat.
---[Synkarin on 12/26 @ 05:27 writes]:
Good strategy can take down a giant aethership, no matter how many 'balances'
they have to cure the hull. Everyone has access to the same giant aetherships if
they choose to. There isn't any actual balance concerns stated, just a dislike
of the evolving state of aethercombat, which is asking for unnecessary nerfs to
satisfy personal dislikes of the system. If anything, Raeri's and Lerads
suggestions for turret damage make far more sense than reducing empath healing
capabilities. I don't support any of these solutions.
---[Enyalida on 12/26 @ 16:52 writes]:
Present this strategy.
---[Synkarin on 12/26 @ 17:41 writes]:
It isn't one simple strategy to win. Strategies will vary depending on the
situation. It's a combination of using the skills at your disposal to overwhelm
the empath making it difficult to cure, leading to failures, delays etc. A
single 8k hull ship should have a difficult time taking down a 64k ship, but if
they use the advantages that they have (such as speed) to lay down deadspace,
ruptures, shockwaves, in addition to using module afflictions and targetting
modules to overwhelm the ship. If you're forcing them to use power to cure, they
aren't using power to hit you. Will it take awhile? Is it foolproof? Absolutely
not, nothing where you have a % chance of failure is foolproof. Can it be done
and has it been done? Yes, absolutely.
---[Enyalida on 12/28 @ 16:02 writes]:
The problem I'm highlighting is that it at the upper levels of hull, you can't
just 'overwhelm the empath', because the buffer on hp is so dramatically huge.
Even with several ships using full power moves, the larger ship can (say)
cleanse off a shockwave (1 balance), cure module afflictions on all important
modules (4-5 balances), and spend many balances to counteract module damage
(another 15 or so balances) without losing any hull health once they spend a
single balance to heal hull - even in deadspace, where my numbers were gathered.
They don't need to use power for this, because the hull healing is so strong
that they can easily afford to wait enormous stretches of time. Nothing you have
presented has approached this essential issue: Having a big ship not only makes
it take longer to kill you, it dramatically changes the balance economy and
opportunity costs of curing your ship. The large ship has PLENTY of leisure time
to cure off ship afflictions and module damage. For the large ship, there IS one
simple strategy to win.
---[Synkarin on 12/28 @ 17:28 writes]:
I disagree, it's been shown to be possible to overwhelm large ships. It doesn't
matter if a large ship has more leisure time because you can overwhelm them and
you are giving up other advantages to gain that 'leisure time'. You also keep
ignoring the fact that you can get the same size ship. You have yet to present
any actual balance concerns other than 'I don't like fighting ships with huge
hulls' which isn't an actual balance concern and just a refusal to adapt to the
changing landscape of aethercombat. You have options to compete against large
ships, you can take down large ships, you can have large ships yourself. It's
not a balance concern if you refuse to adapt to the situation. It's unfair to
nerf something because you don't want to change your style. This is an un-needed
change. No support.
---[Enyalida on 12/29 @ 19:56 writes]:
Final rundown of the repeated refutal of your points: The singular advantage you
give up with a massive hull is much slower steering, which isn't a hindrance in
the modern age of aetherflares. Between whistles, bubblixes, flashpoints,
beacons, and anchor modules there is no reason to move a ship once it is in
position, and it's incredibly easy to get any ship into position. Large ships
functionally give up nothing in exchange for the overwhelming benefits described
in this report. Balance concerns have been noted and demonstrated exhaustivly
with hard numbers, you've just ignored them. You haven't actually presented any
of these mythical options in detail, and your vague defense of the current
mechanics has been repeatedly addressed, including in the problem statement. All
ship healing is on the same balance and the strength of a ship's offense is
fixed. Therefore, having dramatically more efficient balances eventually
eliminates the effect of module damage and afflictions, that effect being to
force healing away from the hull long enough to degrade the hull to zero (or low
enough to ram). Present a flow of events by which a crew of equivalent size may
take down a crewed megaship in a reasonable timeframe. Heck, a crew double the
size of a fully crewed megaship (up to 12 people). Even a crew triple the size!
If the upper limit is ~64k hull, use my (correct) numbers - as you point out,
there isn't anything stopping players from getting that high of hull. Keep in
mind that it will take 128 direct hits to hull to take down the megaship, and
that each megaship hull heal eliminates the equivalent of 26 direct hits of
damage. Everyone being able to use a broken mechanic does not fix it. When the
Aerochem bombs were causing issues, that flaw was entirely useable by all of the
other chems. It was unexpected behavior and needed to be remedied regardless of
how equitably it could be applied. Ship mechanics came out of an age of
Lusternia where I don't think it could reasonably have been predicted that
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