122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-6

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See, again, that's what I keep saying and said in my previous post.  Raids are not harder dungeons, raids couldn't be more different from running a dungeon.
 
Think getting gold on SSM is like raiding?  It's not.  Not by any stretch of the imagination.  If raiding is like running a five man, something is broken and wrong.  A raid is not a 20 man dungeon, it's a 20 man instance, with mechanics built around a VERY different dynamic.  You think that they're the same because they use the same stats as a sliding separator and because other MMORPGs have trained you to think that way.  Blizzard certainly builds 25 man dungeons these days, though I wouldn't call that a marked improvement.
 
No, GA and SSM are two very different animals.  We're not just talking the difference between Warplots and 5v5s, we're talking about an entirely different process behind how groups organize and perform. You can't raid until you've done the 5 man content, but that does not really get you ready for walking into GA.
 
That's why I'm giving myself as an example.  Not, "Well, a lower ranked person needs to come up in rank, we'll deal."  No, what if I, having done a handful of PBGs since I got here, suddenly got an entirely different way to gear for PVP that would drop high-end PVP gear and a high rating on me without doing PVP?  That's what you're advocating.  Believe me, raids in this game are absolutely not scaled-up 20 man dungeons.  There's a reason only two guilds so far have had the coordination to pull of Avatus.  Other guilds are getting better, but that's the kind of difference we're talking about.  We're going from two instances that decently skilled and geared players can PUG and succeed in to two instances built around mechanics that you've not seen in those.
 
Actually, wait, they did do that, YOU JUST RAISED HELLFIRE AND BRIMSTONE BECAUSE DS GEAR IS COMPARABLE TO OR BETTER THAN PVP GEAR!  And I was totally on board with you for the exact same reasons.  You sure as Hell didn't shrug and say, "Oh well, DS raid progression must be another vertical alternative to PVP.  It's not like people NEED to PVP to get the best gear in PVP."  You personally articulated why they're introducing PVP scaleback in order to make alternative vertical progression from PVP impossible.
 
Now, if you're really advocating a different kind of vertical progression, where players are rising solo, their gear doesn't apply at all to raids or anything outside their solo progression, then that's fine.  Split it off and make it useless in raids and PVP (because you won't hear the end of the rage if PVPers are suddenly up against players who can tank, DPS, AND self-heal).  Then release that content.  I'm not entirely sure why that's necessary, why they can't just add dungeons, adventures, and shiphands so that the new raid comes with another round of 1-5man content, but if you really think that's important, then fine.
 
But I'm absolutely not on board with giving a way to get to high-level trinity gear, the stuff you only need in order to raid, for things that aren't raiding.
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			Call me crazy, but I read CK's post....	
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Call me crazy, but I read CK's post....
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Ahh, the old "Casuals should be able to get the same gear raiders do." argument.  Happens in every mmo and it always boils down to this,
 
If casuals could get the same gear as raiders without raiding, no one would raid.
 
 
 
 
 
 	
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So basically elder gems, except you only get them from group content and there isn't a "kill this boss in GA" tag on it. I could dig it. Though I think that the last thing this game needs is more currencies. But that is a problem for another time.
 
 
 
It is feasible, it just requires that raiders be ok with gropu content runners working towards getting gear on a similar level to them by running group content. You could in fact apply it to lots of levels of play and just increase the time it takes to get stuff. For example
 
Glory: provided by all raids and vet dungeons currently. Can be used by people who have cleared content to supplement their gear. Only available to some slots. STays the SAme
 
Genetic Glory: weekly capped currency that can by used to purchase any upgrade (sans weapon maybe) of side graded gear. Can be earned from vet dungeons and a some from genetic archives. Say it takes 4 weeks to accrue the currency necessary to purchase one piece of gear. I feel as if raiders get a lot more than that, and they get set pieces, so it isn't even like the group content runners are gonna be stacked as well. They just have somethign else they can do
 
DataScape Glory: weekly capped currency used to purchase gear on the DS purples level. Very small amoutn earned from vet dungeons, small amount earned from GA, and decent amount from Datascape. Takes 8 weeks to accrue currency necessary to buy a single piece of gear
 
This has its problems, it adds more complications with even more currencies, but at least group content runners could after like 8 months, be outfit in GA gear, or in over a year if they were diligent get DS purples.
 
 
 
 
Just because it is "available" doesn't mean it isn't exclusive. Anyone can try and buy a yacht, as it is available to everyone, but the resources required make it an exclusive purchase. DS and GA to a certain extent are exclusive in this way
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Yeah but you're a Chua.
 
Then again, I also read it and I'm not a Chua so who knows. The post could've used some proofreading though I think :P	
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Isn't that why WoW designed LFR?  So that even "filthy casuals," could subscribe to their game with the ability to experience content, without stepping on the toes of hardcore progression guilds who want to challenging and difficult content?  Is that not genius for hardcore raiders, that WoW invests so much money in the casuals so that they can then make hardcore content EVEN BETTER?   There are some filthy rich people snubbing their nose at CRB trying to break into the market with ideas they've moved on from years ago.  We'll see where this game goes another 8 months from now when people are wondering where their raid content is when Wildstar hasn't been making enough money from raid content to even pay 1 developer's salary.
 
 
I don't need any of this shit, I want it because it's shiny.  I literally play a PvP warrior because the 1800 gear looks so cool.  Some people like costumes in this game.  Some people like to clear dungeons as fast as possible.  Those things are all things that being a raider could benefit from.  Certain people that like crafting are happy that raid tiers are dropping new crafting loot.  That's kind of nice.
 
IF it's better than what they have, and shiny, people will want it.  It's a cornerstone of MMO Marketing.  
 
 
I've been playing since release. I've been capping elder gems, running dungeons, doing group content, etc.  In FFXIV, I would be able to find a group and try my hand at raid content.  In Wildstar, I can't do that.  Even though I've been a dedicated player, because I haven't been raiding, I don't have gear that let's me experience content.  I don't require raiding gear, but it would certainly help me farm for platinum faster. IT would help me farm renown faster.  It would help me complete dungeons faster. It would help me level with my friends faster. It would increase my handicap when playing with new players.  It would encourage me to play alts.  Ah. Look.  Loads of reasons.  Loads of benefits that raiders have the upper hand, even though they don't need that gear to complete the content.
 
 
No one is wanting to hand you DS gear for not raiding.  But wouldn't it be nice, that if you did decide you wanted to raid in the future, that you weren't monthsbehind.com and not permitted to do that content?
 
Oh well, let's just hope the small percentage of raiders is able to sustain this game.
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I do not agree with every thing you are saying, but it is a very well thought comment.
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Let’s put a conclusion to this.
Discarding the “It can never happen” idea there have been some great ideas discussed in this forum.
For me it looks like the refined idea we have come up with would look something like this….
 
Progression step 1
Vet Shiphands as they are now.  Over all a big win for carbine and every one appears to really like them.
 
Progression step 2
Shiphands 3rd mate version (it’s just a generic name)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Adventures with similar but not the same loot tables.  Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear form the next level up.
 
Progression step 3
Shiphands 2nd mate version (I am sure someone can come up with better names)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Dungeons with similar but not the same loot tables. Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear from the next level up. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in this content.
 
Progression step 4
Shiphands 1st mate version (ok the name is kind of growing on me now)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to GA with similar but not the same loot tables. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in content from other playstyles.
End progression for this expansion.
 
For all levels the final boss would only drop “shinnies” [shines being defined as mounts, costumes, dye and other things that are cool but do not progress a characters gear] on regular bases with a chance at a single piece of gear dependent on level of performance (bronze, silver, gold).  Not all pieces of gear would drop with the same regularity.  Weapons for example would be more uncommon.
 
There would need to be a weekly lock similar to raiding.  For each instance you can run it only once per week for loot.  But unlike raiding there would have to be several instances at each level, maybe not as many as the current vet shiphands but at least 2 or 3 per level.  This will allow players to get a maximum of 2 or 3 pieces of gear per week from any one level of content.
 
There could be weekly quest for completing all required content with in a week at the silver or better level that awarded one article of gear or some shinnies from the next level of content.
 
You would have to complete all instances at the gold level to unlock the next level of content.  Once content was unlocked it would remain open to a player but still require the weekly lock out.
 
Edit:
VicVanMeter brought up a good point. Solo content gear should be different by giving more defensive stats, but be normalized if a play tried to use it in raids or PVP and thus raid or PVP gear should be normalized in solo content so they can't come in and blow it way because they have GA/DS gear already.  that being said it should be just as powerful for open world content.	
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Like I said, there are ways to introduce a solo leveling progression independent of raiding, and I've even made recommendations for it in the past.  Here's the hard part:
 
-Solo progression has to be as hard as raid progression.  We're talking months of work, wiping multiple times learning solo mechanics, extensively difficult mechanics.  Otherwise, you'll get no respect for it, they're just grind trophies.
 
-Solo progression gear cannot work in raids or PVP.  We're talking about gear that would, essentially, enable you to form your own one-man five-man.  That can completely break PVP or PVE even if they share an ilvl, because PVP and PVE are both tuned differently but finely.  Having extra survivability on all your DPS can nullify an instant kill mechanic or soft enrage, to say nothing of possibly making you unkillable in PVP.  It would also help if that gear is nullified in the solo instances, hence...
 
-Solo progression would need its own instances.  Omnicore-style, but with less talking and more difficulty.  That's a lot of design work for something people like to badmouth nowadays (although I rather enjoyed it for what it was).  We're talking about making something GA-hard with one person playing, that's going to be mind-meltingly difficult.
 
Now, if you can do these three things, you can essentially create solo progression, a path you HAVE to do alone, have to do independently that is incredibly difficult, and therefore would give you that "cool kid status" you're looking for.
 
It's the only way without making your idea nothing but a raid- or PVP- bypass system.  However, if you did do that, you would essentially have solo progression that carries raid-style weight.
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I agree with most of that, the idea that the gear would not work in raids and pvp i am fine with but it has to be just as powerful in open world.  if it isn't then you would have to normalize raid gear the same as you would solo content and pvp gear for open world.
 
and I defiantly agree with the idea that the raid level equivalent should be mind-meltingly difficult.
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Yeah, the open world should be fine.  Honestly, that's where a lot of soloing takes place, and everything in the open world, whether it's raid-scale (events and world bosses), PVP (your flagged-up world PVP), small group (your 5+ quests and areas), and solo (questing) are all fairly casual.
 
They can go Dark Souls on us with the difficulty for solo instancing, and if it's self-contained, I'm all for it.  I like Omnicore, though I thought it was too story driven and a bit too easy after a while.  Carbine can really chew us up if they wanted to, though.
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Carbine can really chew us up and honestly that is the beauty of this game over other MMOs.  I would just like to see that chew them up in solo or small group stuff.
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Well, if you believe what people say, it does.  You apparently need very good gear to trivialize UPG or Vet SSM for the average-to-good Wildstar player.  For solo progression that lives on a raid, level, though, we're talking about the kind of stuff that GA is made out of.  As a baseline, 4-8 hours a week doing nothing but that, probably a month to three months of solid play to get out of that tier.  God only knows what they'd do to make an equivalent DS solo instance.  That thing's still the pantheon of the gods, even as a 20 man.
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Again, you're worried about people breaking PVP with DATASCAPE gear!  The best trinity gear in the game!  You were worried about people walking into PVP with better gear from this pinnacle you're actively trying to make more achievable for people who aren't even raiding.  Imagine if they didn't equalize the gear.  Leave it.  Let people solo and get gear as good as DS and PVP 1800 gear.  Why not?  Because you'd throw a fit, and rightly so.  Nobody should be able to get max level PVP gear without PVPing, and nobody should have max level raiding gear without raiding.  And nobody needs DS gear unless they're raiding; there are no 5 man dungeons or shiphands up there at the i76.
 
There is absolutely a PVP analogy, and you can't really run from it.  You don't think raiders should be able to just run up to the top of the ladder and higher with non-PVP gear, I don't think you should give solo and small-group players access to DS-level gear.  The people who need, earned, and can use that gear should run Datascape, and they should get into Datascape by running Genetic Archives.  It literally takes most guilds anywhere from 4-8 hours a week to do GA.  Literally, you could walk into a guild for GA once or twice a week for four hours at a time and you'd be doing just fine.  The rules just don't apply anymore because it's not in your wheelhouse; you shouldn't have BIS raid gear from PVP, BIS PVP gear from raids, and BIS gear of neither type should come from solo PVE play.
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WoW is successful for many reasons, but the Blizzard fanbase and addiction are at the forefront.  Don't believe me?  Just google "psychology of world of warcraft" and look at the myriad documents and articles and studies done on why people throw their life, money and time away bashing against dungeons for the CHANCE at ROLLING ON an award.
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Vic, do you realize that I've been arguing for lowering the gear gap in PvP since August of last year?  I and others, are finally about to see a realm of PvP where gear does not equal skill.
 
Did you know that Entry level PvP gear is ilvl 63, and that max level PvP gear is ilvl 65?  Did you know that wearing GA gear in PvP is just a trade-off?  Meaning you can trade more damage for more vulnerability?  DS gear poses a problem because it is a much higher ilvl.  It allows you to gain much more power, without ANY downside.  That was a problem that they're certainly fixing by the rallying. 
 
Don't you understand the simplicity of this concept Vic?  Best in slot PvP gear should be obtained from PvP, best in slot PvE gear should be obtained from PvE!  That was our argument this whole time! 
 
Further, you can't just exclude raiding from PvE in general, and then group PvP all together.  Group content, Raids, are both parts of PvE, just like BGs, Arenas, Warplots, are parts of PvP.  We've never asked for better gear to come from warplots, or arenas, compared to the others.  In fact, we're been arguing, and hopefully soon we're getting best in slot pvp gear just from farming prestige in practice battlegrounds.  We did it to increase accessibility and encourage people to play!
 
 
That's not how... any of this works at all.  Your rating is relative to playskill of other people!  They're implementing a rallying so that DS gear isn't best in slot, but is certainly ON PAR with PvP gear, and they're making best in slot pvp gear very cheap prestige wise, and pvp gear 2 item levels lower @ 63 for less than 3 platinum!
 
The reason people were running to the top of the ladder, is because X warrior in PvE gear hit Y healer in PvP gear for double what they're used to.  It was like swinging on a bunch of level 49 players.  CRB is fixing that issue.
 
So really Vic, if anything you've just made my point loud and clear.  Carbine needs to make raids more accessible.  Just like a DS geared raider isn't going to hit rank 1 in pvp once their gear is rallied down to the level of PvP gear, people with supplemented PvE gear aren't suddenly going to kill Avatus.  There is still a lot of content and learning in their way.
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I've got a question I haven't seen answered in this thread.
 
Why do people think that raiding content is next to impossible to get into?
 
Also, why do you think you have to have no life outside the game to raid?
 
 
I was attuned for months before I set foot in GA, all it took me was asking the people I was doing Gold Tree runs and Scorch Wing with and I was there. We started raiding in mid November, took a break during the Christmas holidays and started back in to raiding in January. We are now clearing to Ohmna in 3 hours, 3 hours people, it's not the soul sucking amount of time some make it out to be. Most players spend more time in a week twiddling their thumbs standing around waiting on things to do, or sitting in queue for for a BG. Raiding is very accessible to everyone in this game, you just have to be willing to take that first step.	
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That's just proving my point really. The sole purpose of a video game is to keep people entertained and WoW does that better than any other mmo. Currently Wildstar is so bad at it that it's gotten to the point that the survival of the game is on the line.
 
The Blizzard fanbase would have had some impact on the initial success of the game but to think that the majority of the current customers were Blizzard fans is nothing short of deluded. Guild Wars is a game that rose up from nothing to being one of the most popular mmo's, again because it was a high quality game.
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I've got a question I haven't seen answered in this thread.
 
Why do people think that raiding content is next to impossible to get into?
 
Also, why do you think you have to have no life outside the game to raid?
 
 
I was attuned for months before I set foot in GA, all it took me was asking the people I was doing Gold Tree runs and Scorch Wing with and I was there. We started raiding in mid November, took a break during the Christmas holidays and started back in to raiding in January. We are now clearing to Ohmna in 3 hours, 3 hours people, it's not the soul sucking amount of time some make it out to be. Most players spend more time in a week twiddling their thumbs standing around waiting on things to do, or sitting in queue for for a BG. Raiding is very accessible to everyone in this game, you just have to be willing to take that first step.
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Vic, do you realize that I've been arguing for lowering the gear gap in PvP since August of last year?  I and others, are finally about to see a realm of PvP where gear does not equal skill.
 
Did you know that Entry level PvP gear is ilvl 63, and that max level PvP gear is ilvl 65?  Did you know that wearing GA gear in PvP is just a trade-off?  Meaning you can trade more damage for more vulnerability?  DS gear poses a problem because it is a much higher ilvl.  It allows you to gain much more power, without ANY downside.  That was a problem that they're certainly fixing by the rallying. 
 
Don't you understand the simplicity of this concept Vic?  Best in slot PvP gear should be obtained from PvP, best in slot PvE gear should be obtained from PvE!  That was our argument this whole time! 
 
Further, you can't just exclude raiding from PvE in general, and then group PvP all together.  Group content, Raids, are both parts of PvE, just like BGs, Arenas, Warplots, are parts of PvP.  We've never asked for better gear to come from warplots, or arenas, compared to the others.  In fact, we're been arguing, and hopefully soon we're getting best in slot pvp gear just from farming prestige in practice battlegrounds.  We did it to increase accessibility and encourage people to play!
 
 
That's not how... any of this works at all.  Your rating is relative to playskill of other people!  They're implementing a rallying so that DS gear isn't best in slot, but is certainly ON PAR with PvP gear, and they're making best in slot pvp gear very cheap prestige wise, and pvp gear 2 item levels lower @ 63 for less than 3 platinum!
 
The reason people were running to the top of the ladder, is because X warrior in PvE gear hit Y healer in PvP gear for double what they're used to.  It was like swinging on a bunch of level 49 players.  CRB is fixing that issue.
 
So really Vic, if anything you've just made my point loud and clear.  Carbine needs to make raids more accessible.  Just like a DS geared raider isn't going to hit rank 1 in pvp once their gear is rallied down to the level of PvP gear, people with supplemented PvE gear aren't suddenly going to kill Avatus.  There is still a lot of content and learning in their way.
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its not that I cant raid, its that I chose not to spend that kind of time commitment in one sitting.
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Holy cow I missed a lot. Not even going to try catching up so this is where I bow out of this conversation. My points have been made and will be summed up here:
 
1.) Solo content must be as difficult and require as much preparation and time as raids to be able to give equal quality of gear
 
2.) Raids are just not that difficult to get into and do not require nearly as much time as people think
 
3.) More people raid (this doesn't mean full clear) in this game than a lot of non-raiders believe
 
4.) PvP needs to be fixed
 
5.) Cake is delicious	
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Let’s put a conclusion to this.
Discarding the “It can never happen” idea there have been some great ideas discussed in this forum.
For me it looks like the refined idea we have come up with would look something like this….
 
Progression step 1
Vet Shiphands as they are now.  Over all a big win for carbine and every one appears to really like them.
 
Progression step 2
Shiphands 3rd mate version (it’s just a generic name)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Adventures with similar but not the same loot tables.  Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear form the next level up.
 
Progression step 3
Shiphands 2nd mate version (I am sure someone can come up with better names)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Dungeons with similar but not the same loot tables. Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear from the next level up. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in this content.
 
Progression step 4
Shiphands 1st mate version (ok the name is kind of growing on me now)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to GA with similar but not the same loot tables. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in content from other playstyles.
End progression for this expansion.
 
For all levels the final boss would only drop “shinnies” [shines being defined as mounts, costumes, dye and other things that are cool but do not progress a characters gear] on regular bases with a chance at a single piece of gear dependent on level of performance (bronze, silver, gold).  Not all pieces of gear would drop with the same regularity.  Weapons for example would be more uncommon.
 
There would need to be a weekly lock similar to raiding.  For each instance you can run it only once per week for loot.  But unlike raiding there would have to be several instances at each level, maybe not as many as the current vet shiphands but at least 2 or 3 per level.  This will allow players to get a maximum of 2 or 3 pieces of gear per week from any one level of content.
 
There could be weekly quest for completing all required content with in a week at the silver or better level that awarded one article of gear or some shinnies from the next level of content.
 
You would have to complete all instances at the gold level to unlock the next level of content.  Once content was unlocked it would remain open to a player but still require the weekly lock out.
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Or, the devs could not waste time with single player content to bypass multiplayer content in a multiplayer game and create more 5 man instances, raids, factions and battlegrounds.
 
MMOs are not single player games, if you refuse to participate in the multiplayer aspects you should not be rewarded.
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Holy cow I missed a lot. Not even going to try catching up so this is where I bow out of this conversation. My points have been made and will be summed up here:
 
1.) Solo content must be as difficult and require as much preparation and time as raids to be able to give equal quality of gear
 
2.) Raids are just not that difficult to get into and do not require nearly as much time as people think
 
3.) More people raid (this doesn't mean full clear) in this game than a lot of non-raiders believe
 
4.) PvP needs to be fixed
 
5.) Cake is delicious
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MMOs cater to more than just group content now, no reason not to carry that idea a bit further.
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And yet, you want the same rewards....
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I want the same rewards for the same challenge but in a different way. not easy loot, not buying loot, not give me loot, let me work for loot in a different way than raiding.
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{| class="blockquote"
Let’s put a conclusion to this.
Discarding the “It can never happen” idea there have been some great ideas discussed in this forum.
For me it looks like the refined idea we have come up with would look something like this….
 
Progression step 1
Vet Shiphands as they are now.  Over all a big win for carbine and every one appears to really like them.
 
Progression step 2
Shiphands 3rd mate version (it’s just a generic name)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Adventures with similar but not the same loot tables.  Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear form the next level up.
 
Progression step 3
Shiphands 2nd mate version (I am sure someone can come up with better names)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Dungeons with similar but not the same loot tables. Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear from the next level up. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in this content.
 
Progression step 4
Shiphands 1st mate version (ok the name is kind of growing on me now)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to GA with similar but not the same loot tables. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in content from other playstyles.
End progression for this expansion.
 
For all levels the final boss would only drop “shinnies” [shines being defined as mounts, costumes, dye and other things that are cool but do not progress a characters gear] on regular bases with a chance at a single piece of gear dependent on level of performance (bronze, silver, gold).  Not all pieces of gear would drop with the same regularity.  Weapons for example would be more uncommon.
 
There would need to be a weekly lock similar to raiding.  For each instance you can run it only once per week for loot.  But unlike raiding there would have to be several instances at each level, maybe not as many as the current vet shiphands but at least 2 or 3 per level.  This will allow players to get a maximum of 2 or 3 pieces of gear per week from any one level of content.
 
There could be weekly quest for completing all required content with in a week at the silver or better level that awarded one article of gear or some shinnies from the next level of content.
 
You would have to complete all instances at the gold level to unlock the next level of content.  Once content was unlocked it would remain open to a player but still require the weekly lock out.
 
Edit:
VicVanMeter brought up a good point. Solo content gear should be different by giving more defensive stats, but be normalized if a play tried to use it in raids or PVP and thus raid or PVP gear should be normalized in solo content so they can't come in and blow it way because they have GA/DS gear already.  that being said it should be just as powerful for open world content.
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This sounds great and all and I'm sure it would be a lot of fun. But I would like to point out that people were saying "hey there should be a veteran version of shiphands" back in what, beta? And it was 3-4 months after launch of people saying this over and over again before Carbine finally said that we would get vet shiphands. It took them til the 7ish (too lazy to actually think about how long it was) month mark to actually deliver them. This is just for a vet version of something that already existed in the game. And they are disappointingly easy, even for a fresh 50 in crafted/quest blues. What you're talking about, assuming that it could be balanced around all of the classes, being equally difficult but not impossible for each class (which is a very generous assumption), is easily an order of magnitude more work than making vet shiphands happen.
 
It would be a massive undertaking. The claim has been made multiple times in this thread that time is being wasted on raid development when only a small percentage of the population will ever experience them. 87 guilds have reported 6/6 GA with 335 guilds at least 1/6 GA. At minimum that's nearly 7k people experiencing GA and 1740 finishing it minimum, and I say minimum because many guilds, mine included, didn't report for both groups when prepping for DS40 and also had a very active bench. Hell we had a roster of almost 60 DS attuned raiders going into DS40.
 
How can you say that there would be thousands of people willing and capable of finishing a raid level difficulty solo content? Remember, a constant argument has been that not enough people raid so time would be better spent on other things, if all you end up with is another tiny community then the exact same argument can be applied to your idea. The only data you have is a handful of people who have chimed in on this thread in favor of your idea. Does the $15 sub of a handful of people outweigh the thousands of subs we have data for raiders?
 
Cool ideas, but it would take a huge investment on the part of NCSoft and Carbine just to cater to, what is most likely, another small community, possibly smaller even than the current raiding community.
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on this note. can we also get 1800 gear by not doing group pvp? maybe a player vs bot arena? would this be viable?
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No they don't, actually.
 
 
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how about a rated 1v1 arena, that would be cool. I would be up for it, how about you?
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on this note. can we also get 1800 gear by not doing group pvp? maybe a player vs bot arena? would this be viable?
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yes they do, actually.
Doesn't need an explanation, go take a look at all the different types of content in all the different MMO's
 
Only group content is an archaic design philosophy that MMO's have continually moved away from since the early EQ/EQ2 days
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yes they do, actually.
Doesn't need an explanation, go take a look at all the different types of content in all the different MMO's
 
Only group content is an archaic design philosophy that MMO's have continually moved away from since the early EQ/EQ2 days
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until they try it, we will never know, but i think it is worth a shot. yes it will take time and effort to create so do raids, so does PVP content.  I just think it would be worth the effort for devs
I do not agree with every thing being said in this thread and there are a lot of inconsistency from sarcasm and different views expressed from different peoples points of view.  every one has a right to an opinion. and this is the place to express an opinion.  even yours.
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Actually, there is very little crowd control in this came (thus far, in my experience).
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So a gamble? Spend hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and months of dev time on something that might work or might fail catastrophically...
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you know that old saying, It is better to have people think you a fool then to say something and remove all doubt......
 
If you don't have a reasoned, well thought out response to the OPs opinions and you can't defend your opinions with reason, logic and evidence perhaps its better not to say anything
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Except that you are applying a different principle.  You're saying people who PVP shouldn't have so far to go, but you definitely said that people who did exceptionally hard work in raiding shouldn't get that same treatment.  That their gear, no matter WHAT, shouldn't be used for PVP BiS builds.
 
Well a couple of things here.  I don't think raiding is "hard work."  I think it's a time investment.  There is nothing inherently "hard," about learning patterns, farming consumables, spending time working with others.  That is not a more difficult task.  That is a task that requires more time. To learn.  It requires more time to commit to wiping.  It is more time. 
 
Further, you're misunderstanding us here.  The problem with that DS gear in Best in Slot builds is that it was exclusive to raiders.  I don't know anyone that thinks a PvP system where the best gear was unavailable to PvPers is a good idea.  The idea here, and the concept for you to grasp, is that PvP needs to be on an equal playing field.  equal equal .  Whether that gear is orange or purple, we want an equal playing field.  It is only because CRB has put in PvPO/PvPD that the PvP gear becomes best in slot.  We didn't ask for PvP gear to be best in slot, like raiders get, what we asked for, and are receiving, is the removal of an unfair advantage.
 
And you're then applying that to say that people who solo should have a progression path to DS.  That's far and away not the same thing, nowhere near each other in how they tune, function, and play.  I do things solo I would NEVER do in a group.  Solo play, and even small group play, have as much in common with PVP as they do raiding.  Stand in heals, don't stand in telegraphs, complete objectives.  That's what I've been trying to explain to you, and that the OP grasps, and that you still don't.  Raiding and soloing, even raiding and small group play, are nowhere near the same thing.  That's why we're now discussing ways to make an experience tuned entirely solo for its own progression, not running it alongside the raids.
 
Maybe it's unclear. I'm a proponent of dungeon and 5 man group play, rewarding eventual parallel gear that gets you into raids, specifically DS.  I don't really care to solo much in this game.  I know that's the topic of the OP or whatever, but I disagree that solo play should bring you on par.  I don't think that gear that gets you into raids should be obtained exclusively from raids.
 
You shouldn't be able to solo for raid gear because you get raid gear from raiding.  You shouldn't be able to do anything for PVP gear except for PVP.  That's how this works.  You're about to enter a world where PVP gear might be better equalized, buy you sure as Hell made sure you raised up above the raiders, no matter how much work they put in.  And you did that for a reason.
 
No, that was just a circumstance.  As long as Avatus killer X doesn't have an unfair PvP advantage over me in PvP, I could care less what gear he is wearing.  If my PvP gear is ilvl65, then I expect his PvE gear to  be too.  Where we run into an issue, is itemization for pvp gear, and this game. Certain pieces of PvP gear don't have main stat, where almost all of PvE gear has main stat.  That's a big issue at ilvl 65.  That's why certain PvE gear, and datascape gear, can be a lot better than PvP gear.
 
So like I was saying, the goal is for an even playing field.  If Joe raider spends 8 months raiding, I don't think he should have a significant disadvantage over me.  In a perfect world, he would have an equal gear set. In an MMO world, with progression, he would probably need to get some timesinked gear and roll some runes.  That's what CRB is moving toward, but it's just a fact of life for an MMO.
 
This isn't a gear-gap issue because you can PUG a small group, even right up to a UPG or Vet SSM.  That should be a big, glaring red flag that they're not the same because PUGs have formed for raids and not gotten far, even with several GA geared people.  People who do a dungeon aren't doing a five man version of a raid and thus need scaled up.  That's actually why I was trying to think of things a Warplot could be that would put it on a raid's level.  A raid is an entirely different animal in Wildstar.  You think all PVE is the same, but it's not.  Omnicore doesn't net me raiding gear and shouldn't.  Same principle, it's an entirely different batch of content, an entirely different experience.  I don't run Omnicore the way I run SoTR.
 
I don't even run Omni-core because it's junk and it's slow.  I don't think PvE is all the same, but raiding, group content, and solo content, are all considered PvE.  That's player versus environment.  PvP is player versus player.  They're just labels for 2 different categories, 1 involving playing against players.
 
But if it means anything, I've wiped more with pugs on the first boss of vet ssm, than I have with pug raiders on x-89.  I think that ssm boss is more difficult than x-89, because it requires more awareness and mechanical movement.  In x-89, if you look like you're about to blow up big time, you jump off the side / go far from the group.
 
And why on Earth are you talking about accessibility?  To run the raids, you need to run the dungeons, adventures, and world bosses.  You should be running at least the dungeons and adventures anyway.  Then, you get to GA, raid GA until you get decent enough gear (and clear Ohmna), deliver your patterns, get into DS.  That isn't a lot of work.  I'm not even trying and I'm halfway through attunement on Seeger.  That's somebody putting zero effort into attuning, just running what other people want to run.  There are guilds right now raiding casually on four hours a week.  Most do eight.
 
8 months after release, I still have hoops and RNG gear to get into the big raid of this game.  Everyone revels about how difficult it is, how much fun it is etc, but the barrier to entry is extremely high.  Not to mention, I have to gather a group of players that fit certain roles / time schedules etc.  Let's just throw an extra barrier on there and make it so I have to have a better set of gear to experience the content, too.
 
Is that inaccessible?  By what standard do you judge inaccessibility?  There's a huge difference between people who aren't raiding because they literally can't, and people who want the raid gear but don't want to raid.  You fit in the latter camp; you obviously have all the time you'd need to do that.  It's not the everest of gaming, getting 20 people together twice a week.  If you can do that, there is absolutely nothing above anyone's head.  Attunement is easily accomplished for anyone with four scheduled five man groups, world bosses might take two days if you can't get one to stand up, it's not that critical.
 
Raiding isn't inacessible by any stretch of the imagination.  Anyone with time enough to play this game more than eight hours a week can raid.  There are a lot of people that don't actually want to raid, but again, what do they need raiding gear for?  Because it's there and shiny and you want it?  Set some time aside and raid.
 
But that's obviously not what this is about.  I believe Jix when he says he wants a solo progression experience because he is willing to take it on its own, never getting true DS-equivalent trinity gear.  I don't believe anyone that actually wants DS level trinity gear from not raiding are actually really bummed about the lack of solo content, I believe they're trying to bypass actually raiding to get raid gear.  There's a big difference between "needing accessibility" and "taking a shortcut that has nothing to do with the content you're getting gear for."  Seriously, if you want raid-style gear, raid for it.  It's completely ineffectual as an argument to say, "I want to do my dailies faster, so I should be able to get GA gear without raiding."
 
How does that NOT sound like someone running up their ranking and getting gear in PVP without ever doing PVP?  If someone in PVP gets BIS and melts you, that's just PVP.  If it's someone in the best raiding gear in the game, that's a travesty?  But someone should be able to casually solo or small group their way completely past the entirety of small group progression and the first raid?  Or even walk into DS?  That's absolutely ridiculous.  I in no way, shape, or form deserve that to be made available to me and neither does anyone else who doesn't raid.  If people really want to run up soloing progression gear, let it be gear specifically for soloing and nothing else.  That's fine, that's compartmentalized, that doesn't act as an easy-button out of having to actually do the preceding content.
 
Well we're moving away from people getting BiS and melting you, to eventually everyone being able to have that gear, pretty easily.  The timesinks are just prestige grinding and rune slot bs.  That way, more people can experience the competitive end-game of PvP, like arenas, warplots, rated battlegrounds, without having to have a significant disadvantage against someone who has been gearing up the last 8 months.
 
Kind of similar for PvE there.  I see no reason why you can't just start receiving the tools you need to complete and experience DS.  Raiding and progression is about figuring out the fights, executing strategies, and determining the best way of going about those things.  It's about teamwork and organization.  There is also the meta of having to farm for gear, optimizing it etc, but that's just an artificial timesink.  If someone is good enough to kill Ohmna, why should they wait 4-5 more weeks for their gear to catch up to beat him? Why are we letting RNG hold people back?
 
 
Honestly, man, if you want to raid, go do it.  It's really not that bad.  Some people here seem to think it's a huge time commitment, but it's really not.  No reason not to sign up to raid a three hour raid (they have those, too) twice a week.  I'll spend probably four hours online tonight and I'm leaving the office like three hours late.  Before you think it's out of reach, seriously look into it.  Wildstar's raids are hard, but they aren't necessarily time-intensive.  Guilds farming GA are regularly reporting clearing it in 3-4 hours.  Take a stab at it before it seems like too much.
 
Not saying it wouldn't be fun to have an equally hard solo wing with its own compartmentalized progression, but raiding isn't literally out of anyone's scope that I've met.
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No there should be a solo way to my 1800 gear so I don't have to participate in multiplayer content.
I can't be bothered, right?
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I was under the impression, and so were a lot of other people, that bosses in DS would've been killed a lot quicker if they weren't broken.  I don't think it was been the difficulty of DS that has stopped the progression for so long.  I thought it was bugs, the awful roster boss etc.  Did Enigma not get slowed down quite a bit by the roster boss as well?
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well that was mean!
 
ill try and expand though. why am i being forced to do group pvp content to be get pvp gear? shouldnt there be an alternative to getting pvp for those that want to do 1v1 battles or cannot find other players? pvp queues barely pop at the moment only during prime times. im a very busy person i cant set my schedule to the schedule most people play this game. does that mean i shouldnt be able to get pvp gear and experience a form of pvp content? no. a lot of people play this game for its pvp alone and a lot of people come to this game because of how interesting it looks from a pvp stand point. ive also been told that other players solo a lot just like me, those people who also do not have very much time on their hands or have their free time during odd hours during the day.
 
should i not be able to get my chance at 1800 gear because i dont play during prime hours or cant organize an entire group of players? also wouldnt it be easy to make a player vs bot mode? you can add varying difficulties of bots which give more and more rewards so those who are good much like those who are good in group pvp can get the same gear. you could also make bots for each class. this not only would allow you to learn how to pvp without getting crushed in normals or having to change you life schedule to the prime time hours but you could progress your character.
 
i came to this game for the pvp and i want to experience it jsut as much as anyone else but currently there is no way for me to do so due to my real life getting in the way. im sure there are others that feel the same. also this wouldnt hurt normal pvp in any way shape or form and actually give players more options at endgame.
 
is my point more clear now?
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I'm pretty sure Enigma is under that impression too. In fact, I remember being told directly on these very forums by Spythe that the reason why Avatus went down only a few days after his pre-Drop 4 nerf and not before was because he was not humanly possible to beat prior to that nerf.
 
So estimates of how long it takes to defeat the raid content here are quite wildly inflated by the fact that the people who designed the raids here literally took so long to fix them that it wasn't even possible to complete the raid content from launch until only a few weeks before drop 4.
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			There is no way to balance 1v1 PvP, that's where the discussion ends for me.	
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PVBot is PVE not PVP, but again i state maybe a rated 1v1 PVP would be good.  there is something to be said for single player PVP skills.
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jix, sorry to ruin the joke here, but CK is trolling you, and has been since the very beginning.
 
Basically, he's making fun of you and trying to imply that you're an idiot for making large paragraphs, and he thinks your whole post is ridiculous.  This is unfortunate, given the amount of people that make fun of him behind his back in-game.
 
It's really a shame the moderators have let it go on this long, when the words calling people bad at PvP gets you warning points.
 
The big wall of text really did make me laugh out loud though, I spit corn.
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jix, sorry to ruin the joke here, but CK is trolling you, and has been since the very beginning.
 
Basically, he's making fun of you and trying to imply that you're an idiot for making large paragraphs, and he thinks your whole post is ridiculous.  This is unfortunate, given the amount of people that make fun of him behind his back in-game.
 
It's really a shame the moderators have let it go on this long, when the words calling people bad at PvP gets you warning points.
 
The big wall of text really did make me laugh out loud though, I spit corn.
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PVBot is PVE not PVP, but again i state maybe a rated 1v1 PVP would be good.  there is something to be said for single player PVP skills.
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jix, sorry to ruin the joke here, but CK is trolling you, and has been since the very beginning.
 
Basically, he's making fun of you and trying to imply that you're an idiot for making large paragraphs, and he thinks your whole post is ridiculous.  This is unfortunate, given the amount of people that make fun of him behind his back in-game.
 
It's really a shame the moderators have let it go on this long, when the words calling people bad at PvP gets you warning points.
 
The big wall of text really did make me laugh out loud though, I spit corn.
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well the bots would be representative of the classes in this game. they would use class abilities and it would prep you for pvp. i see how it is technically "pve" but it would be for the progression of pvp since 1v1 pvp would still require you find another person. also its apparently hard to balance 2v2 so id think it would be worse for 1v1. but you could do it much easier with bots because they can change the abilities around a bit. i definitely this idea requires a bit more attention. it definitely isnt a troll post and has just as much merit as making a pure pve solo-able content.
 
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not sure I know what your talking about i think you should expand a little.
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Let’s put a conclusion to this.
Discarding the “It can never happen” idea there have been some great ideas discussed in this forum.
For me it looks like the refined idea we have come up with would look something like this….
 
Progression step 1
Vet Shiphands as they are now.  Over all a big win for carbine and every one appears to really like them.
 
Progression step 2
Shiphands 3rd mate version (it’s just a generic name)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Adventures with similar but not the same loot tables.  Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear form the next level up.
 
Progression step 3
Shiphands 2nd mate version (I am sure someone can come up with better names)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to Dungeons with similar but not the same loot tables. Loot tables would include a rare chance at gear from the next level up. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in this content.
 
Progression step 4
Shiphands 1st mate version (ok the name is kind of growing on me now)
Solo or small group instances that would compare on difficulty level to GA with similar but not the same loot tables. There could also be exceptional items but you have to do an imbuement quest in content from other playstyles.
End progression for this expansion.
 
For all levels the final boss would only drop “shinnies” [shines being defined as mounts, costumes, dye and other things that are cool but do not progress a characters gear] on regular bases with a chance at a single piece of gear dependent on level of performance (bronze, silver, gold).  Not all pieces of gear would drop with the same regularity.  Weapons for example would be more uncommon.
 
There would need to be a weekly lock similar to raiding.  For each instance you can run it only once per week for loot.  But unlike raiding there would have to be several instances at each level, maybe not as many as the current vet shiphands but at least 2 or 3 per level.  This will allow players to get a maximum of 2 or 3 pieces of gear per week from any one level of content.
 
There could be weekly quest for completing all required content with in a week at the silver or better level that awarded one article of gear or some shinnies from the next level of content.
 
You would have to complete all instances at the gold level to unlock the next level of content.  Once content was unlocked it would remain open to a player but still require the weekly lock out.
 
Edit:
VicVanMeter brought up a good point. Solo content gear should be different by giving more defensive stats, but be normalized if a play tried to use it in raids or PVP and thus raid or PVP gear should be normalized in solo content so they can't come in and blow it way because they have GA/DS gear already.  that being said it should be just as powerful for open world content.
 
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Conclusion
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sure though a specific question on which part of it would help. or a list of questions.
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			How about target dummy progression towards raid gear?  Maybe some target dummy daily quests too.  "Hit the target dummy for an hour." etc. for 1 Solo Raid Gear coin.  Solo Raid Gear coins could be saved up to buy DS gear at the Solo Raid Gear vendor.	
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Eclips asked one I'd love to have an answer to. I notice that as much as some comments have been jumped on immediately, the raiding community has been completely silent on this one.
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How about target dummy progression towards raid gear?  Maybe some target dummy daily quests too.  "Hit the target dummy for an hour." etc. for 1 Solo Raid Gear coin.  Solo Raid Gear coins could be saved up to buy DS gear at the Solo Raid Gear vendor.
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How about target dummy progression towards raid gear?  Maybe some target dummy daily quests too.  "Hit the target dummy for an hour." etc. for 1 Solo Raid Gear coin.  Solo Raid Gear coins could be saved up to buy DS gear at the Solo Raid Gear vendor.
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Eclips asked one I'd love to have an answer to. I notice that as much as some comments have been jumped on immediately, the raiding community has been completely silent on this one.
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well the problem with that is its not difficult. you need to have an equivalent level of difficulty to attune gear similar to raid gear. what you just suggested would only require time. you would have to add some other element.
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Ahh...very true, very true.  The difficulty must be equal to raiding.  How about bigger dummies?  You know, like "raid" sized ones?
 
 
Solo Raid Gear Quest giver: "Hit the raid dummy for an 4 hours" for 1 Solo Raid Gear coin.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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making them larger wouldnt make it more difficult it would actaully make it easier since its a larger target it would be easier to hit.
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The reason that raids are different from solo classes in regard to specific classes is because in a raid you generally have at least one representative of each class, meaning you won't be lacking in something that one class brings, and also you won't be completely able to bypass mechanics where a class might excel.
 
I'll give two examples from the,first two raid bosses (because that is my experience).
 
On X-89, Void Slip allows spellslingers to by-pass the bomb mechanics altogether (assuming VS isn't on CD). So if you were crazy, you could stack a raid with 18 spellslingers and two tanks and you could almost completely ignore the main mechanic in the fight. There would be little DPS check and as long as the healers could keep focus up and everyone avoids the spew, you could just tank the boss right in the middle until he was dead. The reason no one does this? Because no one has a raid team with 18 slingers- it's impracticable to build and wouldn't be effective for the rest of the instance. However, a similar type mechanic in a solo instance would make it simple for a lone slinger, whereas for other classes they would have to deal with the mechanic.
On Kuralak, having an engineer in the raid means that you can bypass a whole (annoying) mechanic of finding Kuralak when she disappears and interrupting her. Without the engineer, you are hosed and have to do the mechanic. Again, in a raid of 20 folks, you are likely to have a engineer in the raid. A solo instance, well it's either be an engineer or too bad!
 
Now it's not clear in the above cases whether these are intended mechanics, but at the end of the day these are just very obvious examples that each class has strengths and weaknesses, and an average raid is able to leverage a bit from all the classes. If these WERE unintended, then it's really not that big a deal because having a few of every class smooths out the rough edges. In a solo instance, every nuanced difference between classes would have to be watched carefully, and developed (and patched, when exploits are found) around.
The classes are MORE than just dps/tank/healer. They have their own abilities that have to be dealt with. Balancing when you know you'll have a large category of classes is a lot easier than making sure every class on its own will not be OP or UP in a given encounter.
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The answer to that question is: 'very difficult'.
 
DS scales up personal accountability another notch. In GA you can afford to lose many people during fights. Coming in from GA with full GA gear you can hardly afford to lose a single person on any of the boss fights in DS 20.
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Sorry, I know by the time I read this it's several pages behind the cutting edge of the argument, but as I was reading your post something struck me as an idea.
 
If the problem is trying to create a solo encounter that isn't it easier for a single class then it is for others, then perhaps a solution is to create multiple encounters which would challenge each of the classes in a particular way before granting rewards.
 
In this way no single class would have it easier than another, because while one encounter might be easier the rest might be more difficult. You wouldn't need 6 different instances, only one with 6 different types of challenge.
 
In this way u dont have to worry about ensuring every encounter is perfectly balanced for every class, because the overall run would average out.
 
EDIT:Apologies for bad grammar. On my phone at work.
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Hmmm. Almost like having fewer people makes the content harder and not easier? Naaaaah.
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cant argue with that logic!
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			though some would argue that SD is easier now that it is 20man, because when CRB had to cut mechanics designed for 40 man it lost a lot of what made it difficult. but that is just one instance so im going to call the all clear on this myth being busted. solo content is indeed harder by nature.	
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though some would argue that SD is easier now that it is 20man, because when CRB had to cut mechanics designed for 40 man it lost a lot of what made it difficult. but that is just one instance so im going to call the all clear on this myth being busted. solo content is indeed harder by nature.
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Hmmm. Almost like having fewer people makes the content harder and not easier? Naaaaah.
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Some might argue that having to sort out your own timing and solution for the mechanics is a whole lot harder than going AFK and getting credit for taking down the boss anyway while the raid leader says "He'd still get the loot, he's in the room." So yeah, your myth is pretty much busted.
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Some might argue that having to sort out your own timing and solution for the mechanics is a whole lot harder than going AFK and getting credit for taking down the boss anyway while the raid leader says "He'd still get the loot, he's in the room." So yeah, your myth is pretty much busted.
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No, it doesn't. Before you had 39 other people that had to be on the ball. Now you have only 19 other people having to be on the ball. Less variables makes fights easier. Every time you cut the amount of variables in a fight, you cut the difficulty of that fight, 40>20>10>5>1. It's simple math Yasfan, the only way this works out they way you think it does, is if the raid boss stays as it did during the 40 man version while only allowing 20 people to fight. Then, this convoluted logic you tend to banter about on the forums would have some merit.
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So, you're comparing with the only guild that killed Avatus?
Now I just know to just ignore your comments on raiding.	
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What you just described would only be true if every single person in the raid group had to survive in order for the raid encounter to finish. Let's apply a little binomial statistics to what we're talking about--it's not completely accurate as a model for this, but it's close enough to make it obvious what the problem is with what you just said.
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			You know, Carbine did set the precedent with the renown train.  If you're AFK in the raid, you don't get rewards.  Clearly CRB set that rule, and it's up to us players to abide by it.	
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You know, Carbine did set the precedent with the renown train.  If you're AFK in the raid, you don't get rewards.  Clearly CRB set that rule, and it's up to us players to abide by it.
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			This thread has gone from interesting debate, to absolute nonsense.	
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This thread has gone from interesting debate, to absolute nonsense.
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I am surprised this thread is still going, mostly fueled by a couple people that take the time to answer non-stop through the day. The thread has gone from mildly interesting to just plain nonsense at this point. CK is the only amusing person left and perhaps the only one left making sense (despite him trying really hard not to).
 
Plus, one of the main players is also trying to stir up the drama by creating another thread to bleed out into and instigate more responses.
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/122900-rated-1v1-arenas-mr-ck-wants-to-get-1800-rated-pvp-gear-by-showing-is-solo-skills/
 
So, can we just let this thread rest in peace already? There is nothing left to be said and to be honest part of me believes that its just here to stir up drama and instigate responses but I would rather give the OP the benefit of the doubt.	
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Hi folks,
 
This thread has bypassed its usefulness. As such I am locking it. Please remember that posting just to elicit a response from other forum members is in violation of our code of conduct. While we always want to promote constructive and polite discussion, posts that do nothing but encourage a specific response tend to get locked. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
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