122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-5

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Well yea, everyone does have 100% of the chance to see the content, as long as they go through all of the hoops, the long time investment, the RNG, and the raid organization.
... but that's kind of the point.  The barrier to entry is too high.  You can't just jump into System Daemons without first getting a decently good set of gear from multiple GA clears, finding 19 other people that meet your raid schedule, while also being a role / class that a group needs.
 
The barrier to entry is too damn high!  There needs to be an alternative gear progression that runs parallel to GA / DS!  There needs to be a way for solo players and group content players below raiders to get caught up!
 
These aren't things that take away from raiders. They are things that reward more casual players over time, for a similar time investment.  For instance, there should be an alternative gear progression for GA, that includes things like a full set of i63 gear, bought with a currency that is rewarded from doing GA / group content.  You would put a weekly cap on it (see elder gems) to keep people from bypassing the easier bosses, etc.  That way, even if RNG kicked your ass for 6 weeks, you should could still be wearing comparable i63 gear, to that 65/68 available in GA.
 
This directly then translates to an alternative gear progression in DS.  If DS gear is going to be the max level of gear this raid tier, then you must have some kind of alternative ilvl range between GA / DS gear, to help people along.  If people are weekly clearing GA, but are having a tough time with system daemons, then a a piece or two of better than ohmna level gear that is considered a side-grade would go well to letting people into that content.
 
Further, this system encourages to play alts, and fill roles that aren't niche in a raid.  In a game where raiding requires 20 people, there's a large chance that at least 1 of those players will be gone by the time you finish the content, or in a different role (healing / dps).  An alternative gear progression system allows people to gear up alongside of their main roles, or to easily fill a role in a raid that loses their main tank to deployment, or main healer to pregnancy.  An alternative gear progression allows people that have been playing the game, for just as long as raiders have, but not in raids, to eventually fill the gaps and take over roles that are needed in those raid environments.
 
I have a feeling, and an educated guess from my experience with FFXIV, that having a system like elder gems etc that keeps people subbed and progressing the gear treadmill, without having to devote the equivalent of a part time job to DS, would increase subscribers exponentially.  The idea is to offer side-grades, or slightly less powerful gear, so that the raiders who beat avatus still have their prestige, better gear, etc, but the ability to fill spots, kill the roster boss, and make the raids accessible to others is greatly increased.
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Good, let's charge them extra so that those of us not playing the raiding game don't have to pay 15$ a month to content that's exclusive to less than 10% of this MMO.
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Good, let's charge them extra so that those of us not playing the raiding game don't have to pay 15$ a month to content that's exclusive to less than 10% of this MMO.
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Well yea, everyone does have 100% of the chance to see the content, as long as they go through all of the hoops, the long time investment, the RNG, and the raid organization.
... but that's kind of the point.  The barrier to entry is too high.  You can't just jump into System Daemons without first getting a decently good set of gear from multiple GA clears, finding 19 other people that meet your raid schedule, while also being a role / class that a group needs.
 
The barrier to entry is too damn high!  There needs to be an alternative gear progression that runs parallel to GA / DS!  There needs to be a way for solo players and group content players below raiders to get caught up!
 
These aren't things that take away from raiders. They are things that reward more casual players over time, for a similar time investment.  For instance, there should be an alternative gear progression for GA, that includes things like a full set of i63 gear, bought with a currency that is rewarded from doing GA / group content.  You would put a weekly cap on it (see elder gems) to keep people from bypassing the easier bosses, etc.  That way, even if RNG kicked your ass for 6 weeks, you should could still be wearing comparable i63 gear, to that 65/68 available in GA.
 
This directly then translates to an alternative gear progression in DS.  If DS gear is going to be the max level of gear this raid tier, then you must have some kind of alternative ilvl range between GA / DS gear, to help people along.  If people are weekly clearing GA, but are having a tough time with system daemons, then a a piece or two of better than ohmna level gear that is considered a side-grade would go well to letting people into that content.
 
Further, this system encourages to play alts, and fill roles that aren't niche in a raid.  In a game where raiding requires 20 people, there's a large chance that at least 1 of those players will be gone by the time you finish the content, or in a different role (healing / dps).  An alternative gear progression system allows people to gear up alongside of their main roles, or to easily fill a role in a raid that loses their main tank to deployment, or main healer to pregnancy.  An alternative gear progression allows people that have been playing the game, for just as long as raiders have, but not in raids, to eventually fill the gaps and take over roles that are needed in those raid environments.
 
I have a feeling, and an educated guess from my experience with FFXIV, that having a system like elder gems etc that keeps people subbed and progressing the gear treadmill, without having to devote the equivalent of a part time job to DS, would increase subscribers exponentially.  The idea is to offer side-grades, or slightly less powerful gear, so that the raiders who beat avatus still have their prestige, better gear, etc, but the ability to fill spots, kill the roster boss, and make the raids accessible to others is greatly increased.
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Well yea, everyone does have 100% of the chance to see the content, as long as they go through all of the hoops, the long time investment, the RNG, and the raid organization.
... but that's kind of the point.  The barrier to entry is too high.  You can't just jump into System Daemons without first getting a decently good set of gear from multiple GA clears, finding 19 other people that meet your raid schedule, while also being a role / class that a group needs.
 
The barrier to entry is too damn high!  There needs to be an alternative gear progression that runs parallel to GA / DS!  There needs to be a way for solo players and group content players below raiders to get caught up!
 
These aren't things that take away from raiders. They are things that reward more casual players over time, for a similar time investment.  For instance, there should be an alternative gear progression for GA, that includes things like a full set of i63 gear, bought with a currency that is rewarded from doing GA / group content.  You would put a weekly cap on it (see elder gems) to keep people from bypassing the easier bosses, etc.  That way, even if RNG kicked your ass for 6 weeks, you should could still be wearing comparable i63 gear, to that 65/68 available in GA.
 
This directly then translates to an alternative gear progression in DS.  If DS gear is going to be the max level of gear this raid tier, then you must have some kind of alternative ilvl range between GA / DS gear, to help people along.  If people are weekly clearing GA, but are having a tough time with system daemons, then a a piece or two of better than ohmna level gear that is considered a side-grade would go well to letting people into that content.
 
Further, this system encourages to play alts, and fill roles that aren't niche in a raid.  In a game where raiding requires 20 people, there's a large chance that at least 1 of those players will be gone by the time you finish the content, or in a different role (healing / dps).  An alternative gear progression system allows people to gear up alongside of their main roles, or to easily fill a role in a raid that loses their main tank to deployment, or main healer to pregnancy.  An alternative gear progression allows people that have been playing the game, for just as long as raiders have, but not in raids, to eventually fill the gaps and take over roles that are needed in those raid environments.
 
I have a feeling, and an educated guess from my experience with FFXIV, that having a system like elder gems etc that keeps people subbed and progressing the gear treadmill, without having to devote the equivalent of a part time job to DS, would increase subscribers exponentially.  The idea is to offer side-grades, or slightly less powerful gear, so that the raiders who beat avatus still have their prestige, better gear, etc, but the ability to fill spots, kill the roster boss, and make the raids accessible to others is greatly increased.
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Just because it is "available" doesn't mean it isn't exclusive. Anyone can try and buy a yacht, as it is available to everyone, but the resources required make it an exclusive purchase. DS and GA to a certain extent are exclusive in this way
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			i think what Eclips said is that we should be able to get the best PVP gear while doing solo shiphands also.	
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Kit I am not going to quote you since you made a long post :-D, but I would be okay with it, except for the DS gear. I personally don't think the top tier of raid should ever have it's gear available outside of killing bosses in that raid. The glory gear they have now requires you to at least kill System Daemons, which I am okay with.
 
However, if a new tier came out above DS. I would be okay with some DS gear becoming available for glory at a high cost to help alts and new players be able to keep up with the content.	
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Yet again, it is not exclusive. It is available to everyone. You just have to have the desire and commitment to get to that point. They even nerfed the attunement to bronze dungeons making it completely pugable through group finder. It may take you more time to attune solo and join alt/pug raids as a solo player, but it is still all available to you.
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Just like how 1800 pvp gear was available to everyone.  There were no barriers, at all.  So there was no reason to tighten the gear gap, or make the gear available for prestige.
 
 -_-  The eventual ability to get into DS is in fact, available to everyone. But, the barriers to entry make it less accessible than it should be. 
 
We also want to realize that you're not going to sustain a game on raiders alone, and that you need group content runners, casuals etc.  You've seen the lowpoints of this game when it caters to raiders and makes them a priority, the game dipped super low.  Patch 4 came, offering a whole slew of new quality of life fixes and content for non-raiders, and it has been widely regarded as successful and positive for the health of the game.  Sure, there will always be hardcore guilds, but getting the casuals into the raiding content, or at least making it accessible to them is the end goal.  It's how you sustain an MMO, it is how FFXIV has been successful, WoW has been successful, GW2 is successful, you name it.
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Raiders:  "This orange gear is my reward for my time and dedication, it makes me better than you, and no one else should have it unless they do what I did to get it."
PvP players:  "*cupcake*it, give them the same gear that I have, I'll beat them anyway and it will be even sweeter this time."
 
Gear is not the reward.  Gear is the tool.  Should be hyped about the sweet mounts / titles / costumes you can get from killing Avatus because its a hard fight, not because the gear isn't available to everyone.
 
The gear ladder is just another RNG slog to grind through so you can keep paying 15$ a month for content.  If the fights are too easy because you have all of that sweet orange gear, well GG.  Time to start making challenging raid content.	
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Raiders:  "This orange gear is my reward for my time and dedication, it makes me better than you, and no one else should have it unless they do what I did to get it."
PvP players:  "*cupcake*it, give them the same gear that I have, I'll beat them anyway and it will be even sweeter this time."
 
Gear is not the reward.  Gear is the tool.  Should be hyped about the sweet mounts / titles / costumes you can get from killing Avatus because its a hard fight, not because the gear isn't available to everyone.
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Raiders:  "This orange gear is my reward for my time and dedication, it makes me better than you, and no one else should have it unless they do what I did to get it."
PvP players:  "*cupcake*it, give them the same gear that I have, I'll beat them anyway and it will be even sweeter this time."
 
Gear is not the reward.  Gear is the tool.  Should be hyped about the sweet mounts / titles / costumes you can get from killing Avatus because its a hard fight, not because the gear isn't available to everyone.
 
The gear ladder is just another RNG slog to grind through so you can keep paying 15$ a month for content.  If the fights are too easy because you have all of that sweet orange gear, well GG.  Time to start making challenging raid content.
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Are you honestly trying to say that is a valuable expenditure of CRB development time and resources?  Let's say that even if 10% more people were playing this game for the raiding content, that's still a small part of the population of this game.  Wouldn't it be nice if Wildstar was sold as a game with hard and challenging content that all players have a chance to see and try their hand at competing?  Right now it's being sold as a game that only 10% of the playerbase gets to even step foot into.
 
You can't just make your whole game revolve around difficult and challenging raid content if only 10% of your subscribers ever get to try it!  You're better off focusing on solo content or alternative gear progression in order to make those raids accessible.  Solo Joe and Group Content healer Sally aren't suddenly going to be 9/9 DS just because you opened the door for them, but they are going to subscribe and try and kill bosses.
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EDIT: Oh, better example! You know that person that boosted to like 4000 rating and embarrassed the ranking boards? The one everyone knew didn't deserve to be up there, it was just a cheap exploit to look like they'd done the work? You're essentially talking about legalizing that for PVE, making sure people who don't even raid can completely bypass the entire raiding experience, end up on Avatus, and declare game over.
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That is an interesting way to generalize all Raiders and all PvP'ers. Not completely accurate because there are both raiders and pvp'ers who have the skill to do more with less. I know pvp'ers who get very exciting when they finally reach that rating level to be able to purchase new gear as their reward.
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You're trying to equate someone who wants solo progression with someone who exploited the PvP rating system? That's pretty classy right there.
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You're trying to equate someone who wants end game solo progression in a mainly multiplayer focused game with someone who exploited the PvP rating system? That's pretty classy right there.
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You remember when I said I didn't understand PVP, and that you can't apply PVE gear logic to PVP?
 
Same principle, in reverse.  Gear is a tool for progression in PVE.  The most efficient way to do this is to scale the gear by group size needed, then people can decide what size group they want to stop participating in.  High level raid gear isn't just a reward or a tool, it's PVE ELO.  You don't care if that rating goes away because you're in direct competition.  PVE is determined specifically BY how your gear stands up to content.  More of what you're talking about is, "remove all prestige, give the rewards to everyone as long as they've won one BG.  That should entitle them to anything anyone else has, right?"
 
That's why the OP even cares at all.  Do you think the OP actually cares about having gear?  He wants to be at the "end of the game", something the PVP side doesn't have and something he hasn't earned.  Imagine that you're playing Super Mario Bros., and you beat the game.  Then, your friend gets the game, kills the first goomba, skips to the end, and drops feetfirst on the axe.
 
What the OP wants, the OP can't have without devaluing the entirety of the experience.  PVE isn't a directly competitive, but surmountive, experience.  And chopping off the top of the ladder so people can climb it easier doesn't solve a single problem, it just means you'll have those same people complaining (as they are in this very thread), that they're "out of content".  Only that time, they'll be 100% correct.  There isn't another Avatus queueing in to fight us that might be different next time.
 
EDIT:  Oh, better example!  You know that person that boosted to like 4000 rating and embarrassed the ranking boards?  The one everyone knew didn't deserve to be up there, it was just a cheap exploit to look like they'd done the work?  You're essentially talking about legalizing that for PVE, making sure people who don't even raid can completely bypass the entire raiding experience, end up on Avatus, and declare game over.
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well... i know PLENTY of PVP players with 1800+ gear that were super happy two-shotting newer players. They even thought they were good doing so!!
 
but yeah, i will be fair here: i preached in favour of balanced\fair gear discrepancy for pvp. So i will say that PvE also should not be a gear treadmill. Raids should have other kinds of reward and not just stronger gear.
IF raiders should have strong rear it should be like "slightly" better. but right now it is way too much better than non-raiding gear. So the game is basically putting you into a "raid or don't progress" type of situation.
 
i say: don't progress is the fairest choice. like Gw2. (in gw2 the hardest PvE content -fractals- require its special resist stat to go thru, but aside from that, same gear as everybody else).
 
on the other hand.. maybe wildstar is just that. a raiding game.
its not like a lot of non-raiders stick around anyway...
there is maybe 50pvpers 50housing people and another 5000 that likes the game as is doing alts etc.
 
so only the devs really know whats best because they have metrics of where the population is.
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So how is this different from every other MMO on the market? Go on, I'll give you a minute to answer ........
 
That's right, it's not. Even WoW develops content that only around 1-2% of the playerbase will ever even try to see. Yet it is still made and will always be made. This whole arguement about alternate gearing paths is pretty pointless. You are given all the gear you need to go into GA from dungeons. What more do you want? You want to be handed DS gear to walk into GA with? Right, there's those 'I want to be handed everything' people.
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Too be fair, the reason they were 2 shotting people was due to a bad match making system that was highly exploited. Which is no fault of the gear available. With a working match making system 1800 rated players should never have been matched up with brand new pvp'ers with no gear. Luckily steps are being put in to address those types of things it appears.
 
But your comments don't really mesh with what I had even said. So I am a little confused on how to respond to you much more than that.
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WoW develops content that is available for anyone who likes to "raid," in their game.
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I've never liked single player games.  I could never get into them.   I played legend of zelda and starfox on the nintendo 64, but I can't really find the patience to sit through single player games anymore.
 
... and no, no I'm not.  I never said you could jump straight into Avatus once you had similar gear.  You still have to go through GA / DS to get to Avatus.  You can't just kill System Daemons and go straight to Avatus.  You've made a very poor example here. 
 
A better example would be if Mario had to have a health bar with 40 mushrooms, 10 fireflowers that multiply his damage that he obtained RNG while completing bosses over and over until enough fireflowers dropped to kill Bowser.  Mario gets it, you got the same little guy, with the same amount of hitpoints, who does the same amount of damage when jumps on somethings head.  He goes through different levels, with different encounters, but he's the same little plumber woopin' ass no matter what.
 
Gear Tiering in MMOs is an artificial timesink used to extend playtime and content.  
 
FFXIV timegates the alternative gear they give to people, making it so that the less skilled / dedicated people EVENTUALLY overtime have the opportunity to see the end-game content.  Hardcore players get the content finished faster because that's what they are.  FFXIV just lets the casual guilds, like your own, sufficiently gear up and stay competitive while also providing vertical progression.
 
But I guess it's just a fundamental way to look at things.  You look at it in the way that getting to the end-boss and challenging him requires going through all the content pathways, getting the specific gear required over months etc, with RNG, crafting time investment, etc.  I look at PvE progression as new and challenging content that requires 19 other people to work together, find strategies, schedule appropriately, and have a good time.  I would never want to sit a good player / put someone on the bench because their set pieces haven't dropped for the last 3 weeks, and their gear is lagging behind.
 
But hey, it's an MMO with people. Some people like the grouping and teamwork aspect, some people don't.  That's why I enjoy pvp.
 
 
I just found it amusing based on some of the posts in the thread.
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how many players would we lose / would it cost CRB if they stopped focusing on end-game raiding in favor of more casual content. 
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WoW develops content that is available for anyone who likes to "raid," in their game.  They just spend time making different difficulties for that raid, so the hardcore progression guilds are happy, and the casual weekend raiders are happy too.
 
And they're wildly successful for it.
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If they were explicit about it (as in, posted tomorrow "Hey guys, we're suspending raid development for the foreseeable future") I think it would be disastrous on the game. I think there are a lot of people who enjoy the idea they might be able to raid, even if they currently don't have plans and maybe never will. 
 
 
Absolutely. The same thing that is happening to GA right now will happen for DS, eventually. The gear that people can get from dungeons is good enough that a lot of the encounters are becoming easier and GA more accessible. I assume they are going to keep releasing new teirs of gear, and gradually the older content in the game will become easier.
 
GA is no joke even with the gear you can get from SSM/Protogames/Glory, but it's still easier than when the first raiders were taking it on. And I'm seeing completely new people who had no intentions to raid get in and be successful on the early stages.
 
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I raid twice a week, which would be the same level as the casual weekend raider.  And I certainly wouldn't want to do the easy version of a raid.  You are confusing casual with bad.  Bad players should not reap the same rewards as good players.  There are plenty of players better than myself, and I don't feel that I deserve the gear they have earned just because I pay the same amount as them.
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Please stop comparing wildstar to WoW or other games, this is wildstar not [insert other MMO here], just because the system works for that game, doesn't mean it would work with the raids, content and playerbase here. I don't want this game to fall into the junkheap WoD has become, tossing epics into the lap of every bad, lazy player, who screams at their scream because they can't be "cool" like the people who make an effort. The content they've provided, whilst catering to every casual player, has literally no challenge involved. Only mythic is kind of challenging, but with the garrison system and the way crafting works, idk... it seems like they just wanted to toss gear at everyone so they felt equal instead of working for it.
 
As for pvp progression, most pvp'ers I know are excited about getting new gear, because who doesn't love new things? But really... we don't care that much, we just want to be able to beat people up, gear is just the tool for that and making 1800 gear available to everyone is going to improve things for my guild in particular, drastically. People who are legit bad will still be bad, and people who are unlucky will be able to perform a little better. PvP is a whole different animal to raiding. I also feel that PvP should be available to everyone who wants to try instead of being very gear gated. But I don't feel that legendary gear should be above pvp gear in instanced pvp, but carb are addressing that.
 
Also the argument about "there aren't enough raiders in this game", that's because the large majority are actually out there playing the game and attempting to raid. We are pretty much the vocal minority on this forum. I know loads of people still happily progressing through GA, and people just about to dip their toes into DA. It's like air, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there...	
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When the majority of your population left in a game likes to raid, a large percentage of your population raids... but then your game goes under because eventually the content gets old and they can't afford to make new content.
 
Take a look at the market and of other games.  This is the only one that appeals to "hardcore raiders," and such, the game is one of least played games out there, people left it in droves.  I don't even have to back up my claims with anything other than drop 4 and casual content.  Even CRB knows hardcore raiders don't pay for the game, casuals do. 
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WoW develops content that is available for anyone who likes to "raid," in their game.  They just spend time making different difficulties for that raid, so the hardcore progression guilds are happy, and the casual weekend raiders are happy too.
 
And they're wildly successful for it.
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Raids aren't part of PvE content, they're raids, and their own separate entity.
 
I cared a lot about the 4000 rated player on PvP leaderboards.
 
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If you are referring to LFR, you can't possibly even call that raiding. No joke I had my 8 year old do LFR for me when he has never touched an MMO before. That's not even dungeon caliber content. It's Q for X and collect free welfare epics. But that seems to be what you are looking for
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Well if that were the case then 100% of the popuation would be raiders and this entire thread is proven pointless. Which we know is not the case. There are a lot of other things this game does well outside of raids: housing and dungeons just as two quick examples of things the game does very well. Hopefully we will be able to add PvP to the list of things that are done well with the future patches and eventually Drop 5, but that is to remain seen.
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Define a bad player?  If they suddenly beat content that you have, are you now bad, or are they good players?
 
The point is, accessibility.  Bad players don't log in with gear that's on par with yours and suddenly kill SD.  Good players like yourself do that, right?
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Or maybe WoW is successful because it's a good game? The numbers don't lie, people will pay for and play a game that is decent quality, WS is of lower quality which is the main reason it has so little subs.
 
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Define a bad player?  If they suddenly beat content that you have, are you now bad, or are they good players?
 
The point is, accessibility.  Bad players don't log in with gear that's on par with yours and suddenly kill SD.  Good players like yourself do that, right?
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Or maybe WoW is successful because it's a good game? The numbers don't lie, people will pay for and play a game that is decent quality, WS is of lower quality which is the main reason it has so little subs.
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Shows people content that developers spent time creating
Rewards people with vertical gear progression
Doesn't step on the toes of hardcore raiders
Doesn't reward the best gear
 
Your opinion of how easy or hard it is, doesn't really matter.  The system  brings subscribers, it brings people fun, and it lets people experience content.
Maybe CRB should consider doing some of those things, but throwing some Wildstar flavor into the smoothie, and make it slightly more challenging instead of "welfare epics."
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That's a terrible argument, and here's why:
 
WoW got its initial sub base from the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who were following Blizzard from Warcraft through Starcraft and up through WC2 and 3.  The company already had an ENORMOUS following, and word spreads fast when you're that huge and release an MMO.
 
On top of that, WoW is a psychological marvel of risk-vs-reward and casino-style mindplay.  Pull lever, chance at payout!  Run raid, chance at loot!  It does it all in a way that makes you forget how many quarters you've put in the slot machine, or how long you've been at the blackjack table.  Just one more run and I'll have my shoulders.  Just one more run and I'll have that weapon.
 
WoW is successful for many reasons, but the Blizzard fanbase and addiction are at the forefront.  Don't believe me?  Just google "psychology of world of warcraft" and look at the myriad documents and articles and studies done on why people throw their life, money and time away bashing against dungeons for the CHANCE at ROLLING ON an award.
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So let's separate raids from group dungeons etc.  Why do you need more powerful gear?  Can't you just tune it around the same gear that people achieve in dungeons? Instead of hitting someone for 10k, you hit them for 5k.  You still have to dodge telegraphs, etc.  You just don't need the super legendary gear to do it.
 
 Yes, it is part of PvE.  Yes, it is intentionally part of the scale, as someone who wants more challenging and better gear moves to raids.  If not, why doesn't Carbine just make ilvl 65 gear that can only be used in group content that includes 19 other people, instead of 4.  Why does a raider need to hit for 20k, when a dungeon player can only hit for 5k?  Do you see how your gear analogy is so far off here?
 
As far as that 4000 rated player goes.  The whole pvp rating system was broken and a joke. The reason why we laid into Carbine so much, was because they as a AAA mmo developer promised us leaderboards, and then posted them once a week on the website in an exported table.  IT wasn't professional, and the reason we all had a good tirade about it, was because the guy in charge of opening the file didn't bother to look at the charts and see the 4000 rated player there, and remove him from the list.  That just shows a misunderstanding of the whole thing, and kind of just let us know that some intern was in charge of those leaderboards.  That's why we were upset.
 
 
uhh.. because the gear is better? It's vertical progression?  The guy doing veteran dungeons is limited to lower class gear than the people doing raids.  He sees a situation where if he wants to improve his gear, like the others do, he has to do a different form of content that he may not necessarily like.  And no, you don't need more powerful gear to do the raid. You need gear tuned to how the raid is tuned.  The fact that it's orange and more powerful is just a carrot for people to group up and do the vertical progression.  Surely you understand this, VicVanMeter?  I don't know why we're having such a disconnect on this.
 
It's fundamental human nature to covet, and in a game where people are sitting at their computers for hours at a time, sometimes 8+ hours a day, do you think that you're suddenly going to revolutionize the way people spend their money and their time?  No, you need some kind of alternative vertical progression if you want to have a game to play, period.
 
I'm suggesting that there should be a supplemental gear line that runs parallel to DS gear, that enables players who are actively raiding to gear up without having "the best gear," but still be on par with gear capable of beating content.  It's the same with PvP sort of.  I'm all for someone hitting me as hard as I do them, as long as I can have something cosmetically different to wear that says I outplayed them more often than not.
 
Why should a guy who has an achievement for all of the dungeons on gold, with all ilvl65 gear, be forced to run raids to see vertical gear progression?  That's more or less the gist of this whole argument.  In FFXIV, if you run 20 dungeons a week, you can buy a comparable piece to raid gear.  If you raid, you can potentially get 4 pieces and also still get that supplemental piece.  No one loses there.
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Veteran shiphands are good, but they're not solo content, they're flexible which is a great way to make content. You can scoff at WoW all you want but those "out-leveled, trivialized raid instances" are enjoyed by thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of players because that's what players want.
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The biggest fear is that those people will log in, not be good enough to kill SD, and will essentially waste the time and coordinated efforts of 19 other people.  The longer term fear is that, as is happening now, people will be given a rainbow bridge across a relatively insignificant issue (to raid at higher levels, you must continue to raid and get gear), be stopped short on SD, and then that will be overtuned.  And you'll get what you had in the first place, with people complaining that the difficulty is just too high.
 
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That's funny, reminds me of Wildstar's hype before and at launch.  It reminds me of Wildstar every day with RNG loot bags, drops, and crits.  It reminds me of the people roleplaying chuas / aurins, spending money on CREDD for better customized loot, etc.
 
Huh, maybe because they have the same business model
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Let me first start off by saying that   Wildstar is one of my favorite mmos to have ever blessed the gaming community with its presence. I have been playing this game since its launch and although I have not enjoyed it all times, I stuck through the bumpy patches and the faults. I persevered through and kept tried to help in my very own way grow the community by being a part of it.
 
How I like to stay part of the community is by participating in discussions of the official wildstar forums and give my advice or spin on how I believe certain things in wildstar should change or remain the same. This particular post caught my eye because it seemed like an outcry for change both in the game and the game’s community. “Stop wasting effort on new content that does not allow progression” is the title of this topic. When I first read this I was all for it, just the title mind you. I believed before reading the posters topic that games such as wildstar should allow multiple ways to progress towards an end. However my thoughts on the topic were very different than the thoughts and perspectives than the original poster Jix. I want to share with you my thoughts on how wildstar can provide more ways of new content with progression, while refuting the claims made by Jix in his original post. I want to do this by going through point by point, using my experiences not only with the evolution of wildstar from initial release to now drop 4 but also my experiences in other mmos and complete different genres of games.
 
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The name of the game is progression
 
Summary:
 
There are only two content areas in Wildstar, because there are only two way to progress your character.  Either you PVP or your Raid, there is truly no other content in the game.  Stop wasting effort on new content that does not allow progression.
 
    Add the ability to progress a character without raiding
    Add content with shorter play time requirements in a single sitting
    Add the ability to progress a character with challenging solo content
    Add the ability to progress a character with challenging solo crafting, and crafting quest/missions
    Equalize PVP and make it skill based not gear based
 
I love getting lost in the fantasy world of MMO’s.  I am not a role-player but still love the life aspect of the genre.  The economy, crafting, travel and exploration all make for a great game. The best part is being able to see the progression in my character; I can work through the story lines run dungeons, craft and other things to make my character better at what I do.  This is the main reason people like MMO’s.  I want my character to be a BAD ASS! I want to get the gear and ability to stomp anything I see.  I want to get to a point that my character is able to kill things that generally a single person was not intended to kill.  But unfortunately I like many others do not have time to slip away from real life for 10 hours a day.  My schedule does not allow me be at my computer 4 nights a week for 5 – 8 hours on a regular basis.  I can’t stay up all night playing a game because I have to work the next day.  If I spend the time to achieve greatness in Wildstar I fail at life.  And if I put in the effort to succeed at life I fail at Wildstar.  I would desperately like to see some life balance.  There is no reason I shouldn’t be able to have my cupcake and eat it as well.  After all what’s the point of cupcakes if you can’t enjoy eating them.
 
                I see all the cool kids in Wildstar with the best and coolest looking gear, that enables them to go out in the world and stomp things and I want to be a cool kid to.  But because I have responsibility in real life I am unable to progress my character in Wildstar.  I have done the adventures, I have done the dungeons. That was sometimes difficult for me because they can take quite a long time.  I have done the quest lines and world story.  I have even had the opportunity to kill a few world bosses, not many have you because finding a group that just happens to be engaging one when I have happen to have a few minutes to play is difficult at best.  But none of this has allowed me to even get close to being a cool kid with cool gear.  The addition of the Shiphand missions was the most awesome thing! I was so excited I almost wet myself.  They were so much fun as I was leveling up.  They were short, solo play or small groups.  I didn’t have to wait 2 hours for a queue to pop.  But to my dismay I find that I can do Shiphand missions until the cows come home and still not be a cool kid.  The gear that drops is caped below what you would get in an adventure.  So Wildstar added some nice solo content! Yeah!  Shame it’s only for new level 50s.  I have done all the Shiphand they were fun but I don’t get to progress so why should I keep going.  I have done all the adventures, the rare epic drops are a cool aspect, but even they don’t stack up to dungeon gear.  I did all the dungeons, again a few rare epic drops but for the most part the rare gear is as good if not better and again it still doesn’t get me close to being a cool kid.  I have maxed out my crafting and have all the best crafted gear, that did take some time, and it was fun harvesting materials and turning them into usable gear.  Crafting hundreds of an item until you got just the right combination of rune slots, incumbents, stats, and specials you want.  But this didn’t make me a cool kid either.  With all this being done I come to the conclusion that unless I can successfully raid I can’t be a cool kid.  Because I am unwilling to give up my wife, my job, and my life to do this the inevitable conclusion is to cancel my subscription.  Why play a progression based game if you can’t progress.   I feel as if I am stalemated.
 
The last bastion of hope to progress my character. PVP.  I like PVP its fun and Wildstar version of it has some interesting dynamics.  There are defiantly some cool kid’s gear you can get from PVP.  But there is a catch.  New PVPers at level 50 pretty much get killed in a few hits.  That is unless you are already a cool kid and have all the sweet raid gear.  So I get to be fodder until I get acquire some decent gear.  Ok I can do that.  I now have a complete set of rare quality PVP gear, but wait I am still fodder! I still can’t hold my own against other players.  Some might say its skill, but all the skill in the world won’t help you when you’re standing toe to toe with a geared up warrior who you can’t stun, damage or run from, or a geared up stalker that kills you in two hits before you become un-trapped.  The balance in PVP is incredibly uneven and without the epic gear your still fodder.  Time to get some epic gear because I am sick of being fodder!  But wait how do you get epic gear? Warplots! They look like fun, but it’s basically a raid for PVPers, and I still don’t have that kind of time.  How about arenas, I love 2v2 arenas, but how do you get a team of fodder geared people to compete with epic’ed out cool kids?  No rating for fodder and cool kids don’t want to team up with someone in fodder gear and lose their rating.  One of the big pitches for PVP in the Wildstar marketing campaign was based on player skill.  But again I say skill will not help you in an uneven match.  Oh and by the time I sit through 10min to 2 hours of waiting for a queue to drop I jump in a group and get stomped.  If the game was based on player skill then upon entering a PVP instance all players would have the same stats and be even.  Then and only then can it truly be based on skill.  Regardless of skill, time is still the factor.  People who PVP all the time and can group with people who PVP all the time get the gear and become the cool kids and brag about their skill because they have the gear to demolish people using fodder gear.  I killed that guy in 3 hit! I am awesome.  Not much skill in that.
 
I was always told that unless you have a solution don’t bring up a problem.  Here are some solutions I have thought about.
 
Naked PVP: every one that enters into PVP battle, warplots, arenas, battlegrounds, or even world PVP has the equivalent stats.  No one is better than another based on having better gear.  This would allow for a skill based comparison and not a gear based comparison.  With common stats the customization of PVP attributes will be centered in tier ability’s, and amp point builds and yes everyone should have the same amount in PVP.  You can customize your character to be more defensive or more offensive but still have equal gear ability as everyone else.  If I feel like I am fodder, I can increase my defensiveness at the cost of offensive but still be within a marginal range of every other player.  But because progression is the name of the game, there has to be some type of reward for being more skilled.  This brings us back to cool kids gear, but why not just normal old world gear. I get to be a cool kid because my skill in PVP is better than most and when I do jump out of PVP to do something else I can be a just as cool of a kid as raiders.  Also PVP titles and cool kid costumes that allow people to show off what they have earned.
 
Shiphand: Why should solo content not give equivalent gear to raids?  Is there less challenge are they easier?  The same things that make raids challenging can be incorporated into solo content with the obvious exception of time putting the raid together.  You should be able to progress in gear and status in small groups and solo and still have the challenge and cool kid rewards without the unrealistic time sink involved in raiding. 
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I have no problem with this in a specific circumstance and a very good reason why this shouldn't happen.
 
Solo games build progression off INTENSELY long grinds.  Whereas multiplayer games like Wildstar can keep you playing just so you can play with your friends and difficulty can be scaled through the group (i.e., you have to have multiple people performing well in differing roles), solo play games simply do not have that.  The game itself is limited in how it can tune difficulty (because one person has to have all the necessary tools).  It can be done that solo progression can be integrated, but there are several caveats:
 
Solo progression gear CANNOT be raid gear.  Raid gear is highly specialized and will always outperform any solo gear in their fields.  To that end, solo gear will NEVER compare to raid gear, simply because real raid gear assumes a specialization of labor.  A DPS in a raid doesn't need to heal himself or tank damage.  A tank doesn't need to do incredible damage.  Solo gear would need to fill the "empty role" even if the class doesn't have the ability to do it themselves and, if applied to other group content, creates a character that may be able to survive via sheer survivability on certain mechanics that assume DPS and healers don't have survivability.
 
So if this happens, not only does this directly affect raid tuning (because they have to account for someone who could break those certain mechanics) but it also means solo progression gear still won't perform well enough in any of those roles to specialize.  So solo gear on a raid-level of progression will both create a non-raid element future raids have to consider, but also that solo gear won't fulfill people who will know that any raider is still out-damaging, out-healing, and out-tanking them in specific fields.  So "raid level solo gear" is still likely not going to make a lot of solo players happy because their hard work will be entirely self-contained.
 
It's also an issue of time and effort.  Putting together "raid level solo progression" means having to tune it.  How best to reward the people who spend the time, effort, and patience to run with 20 people?  It took eight months to kill Avatus, and even after the DS20 conversion, progression still stands at 2 guilds who have cleared Avatus.  What could be expected for solo efforts if this is what is expected from the people putting actual effort into the group aspect of the game?  It will surely need to be far longer.  EVE Online does something like this by allowing you to raise yourself to the level it takes to work every single thing in the game by yourself, but we're talking about YEARS of effort.  That's likely not going to make solo players happy either.
 
One of the reasons this may not be an issue, though, is that the premise of this article is flawed.  Veteran Shiphands are not raid-caliber experiences, yet they are extremely popular and lauded additions to the game.  My entire guild loves doing them; they're fun to do between larger and harder group content, they're scalar, they're fun.  All of these are the niche role solo and small group play can bring to the table.  Veteran Shiphands may not be handing out GA level gear, and there may not be a progression, but they act as a mortar between the bricks of harder content, things you can do alone, with a small group of friends (and they are often done with a small group rather than solo in the guild).  Solo "progression" may be a red herring, but solo play has a role to fill.  Right now, I think it's found that role.
 
Unfortunately, if you're looking for raid-level gear, you're not going to actually get "raid-level" gear.  A raid assumes a division of resources for coordination.  Playing solo simply means you will never have to do what a raider needs to do.  I doubt anyone would actually be happy with solo progression gear because if a raid is still well-designed and accounts for this, that player's progression would STILL not make them a viable role-player in a raid.
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You already have access to i61 gear outside of raids, with i63 weapons. Base GA gear is i63. You're hardly going to be "left behind" because you only have i61 gear. On top off that you have access to 5 pieces of glory gear the moment you kill the first boss. If you were to join DS so late, all you'd need is a kill on SD to get 5 i74 pieces, which is the same lvl as non set/Avatus drops in DS.
 
PS: Holy crap I got a massive CK post to work through. Brb.	
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I’m going to try and break down what Jix means so it isn’t one large wall of text.
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Then writes a wall of text.....
Can you split that up better CK ?
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