Report 728

Report #728
Skillset: Knighthood Skill: Riposte/Coule
 Org: Serenguard Status: Rejected Nov 2011
Furies' Decision:
This would require a massive recoding for ultimately a small effect and
therefore we reject this report based on a cost-benefit basis.
Problem: At the moment the skills riposte and coule only work on weapon attacks
done by another knight. They do not proc on armed attacks done by monks. This
report aims to improve the use of these skills by extending their effect to monk
weapon attacks. Apart from the fact that there is little good reason for this
disparity, monks also have far easier access to afflictions that by-pass parry
and stance, and this report aims to marginally improve monk vs warrior combat,
which is notoriously unequal.
Solution #1: Allow riposte and coule to work on armed monk attacks, similar to
 how they work on warrior attacks.
Player Comments:
---[Janalon on 11/10 @ 02:31 writes]:
Aye, I am torn on this report. On one hand, melee based counters that work
against warriors should also work against monks. For example, Nekotai
ScorpionTail procs on stance and impacts warriors & monks equally (though, acro
monks can springup against sprawl but that is a matter for another report). On
the other hand, I acknowledge there may be some unseen mechanics that would
place monks on unequal footing compared to warriors. The Combat skillset
increases parry rate, but so does Knighthood through WeaponParry. I would ask
the admins to reject this proposal IF this mechanic causes Riposte/Coule to more
negatively impact monks than warriors.
---[Janalon on 11/10 @ 07:40 writes]:
Which is to say that I conditionally support this report.
---[Wobou on 11/11 @ 00:28 writes]:
Well in addition to the warrior vs. monk discrepancy there's also one between
the warrior specs as implied in the title and problem of this report. HeavyAxe
and HeavySword do work on monks so BCs and BMs get an unfair shake. I await the
largest blocks of texts ever when double parried.
---[Ixion on 11/11 @ 06:08 writes]:
Riposte and coule should work on monks. I agree with bringing BC/BM on par with
AL/PB as described above.
---[Ushaara on 11/15 @ 00:38 writes]:
I fully support this report, though I would also suggest that ensuring the
ripostes/coules do not trigger Harmony's Chuuti and Akhlum mantra backlashes is
needed. These backlashes can severely hamper a one-hander's active offence
already, and a passive riposte/coule which would trigger these auras punishes
the warrior for the monk's error.
---[Janalon on 11/21 @ 22:14 writes]:
Quick question, do poisons transfer on a riposte/coule?
---[Janalon on 11/21 @ 22:29 writes]:
Also curious if riposte/coule also transfers afflictions... or is it merely a
wound/damage counter strike. IF it does give wounds, damage, poison(s), and
aff(s), I wouldn't necessarily agree with Ushaara's comment that it should not
trigger backlashes such as BioCurrents, ScorpionTail, Chuuti, and Akhlum as it
would impact like a regular weapon strike. Also, if your first kata hit fires a
coule and paralyzes you, that's 3s of no mo gain which could cause a drop.
Dunno, I can only speculate. Seems like I would need more hand-on experience to
better understand the implications of this report.
---[Ushaara on 11/22 @ 02:15 writes]:
Riposte targets a random body part, is subject to natural miss/parry/stancing,
gives 2 (not a typo) wounding and negligible damage. It can however transfer
poisons that are subject to usual shrugging/successful rub-off rates and as far
as I can tell, has a small chance to afflict with light/medium swing affs that
is independent of the bodypart's wounds. However in practice, it is more common
for them to miss, hit parry/stance, or do nothing. Coules I am informed are
different, so I'll leave it to a Blademaster to comment on them.
---[Ushaara on 11/22 @ 02:18 writes]:
Also, since you bring it up, ScorpionTail is a comparable reactive ability but
more effective, proning the warrior which negates parry/stance and boosts monk
damage (with no potential downside for monk I believe?). With regards your 3s of
no momentum gain point, I believe my point stands. It is up to the monk to avoid
hitting parries or be punished for it, (see shieldriposte), especially since
monks can avoid parrying more easily, but as a passive riposte is
uncontrollable, you should not be punished for it. I would actually extend my
earlier comment to include BioCurrents and ScorpionTail, as I forgot about them
when mentioning Akhlum and Chuuti.
---[Janalon on 11/26 @ 13:42 writes]:
ScorpionTail might seem like a good offensive ability on paper, though the
opponent usually stands before the monk regains balance. It works to offset the
opponents rather than add to Nekotai's offense. @Ushaara what about the counters
of rebounding and Justice Blessing? Would all counters be immune to
riposte/coule? How do the parry counters in the other specs respond to Justice,
rebounding, BioCurrents, etc.? I would agree that riposte/coule should work
against monks and be patterned directly off HeftyAxe / HeftySword in regards to
monk counters.
---[Ushaara on 11/28 @ 02:17 writes]:
Ripostes/coules should never be hitting rebounding since it drops when your
opponent attacks. I am uncertain how they work currently against opponents with
an aura of justice, but I understand it returns 10% of your damage? Even if they
did trigger it, 10% of negligble damage remains negligible - I did 2 wounds and
92 damage to Ceana consistently, so justice aura would hit me for 9 damage?
Biocurrents on the other hand hits me for 429 damage which is significant. So
again I stand by my earlier position, that you should not be punished for your
opponent's error, and ripostes/coules should not count as offensive actions
which trigger any existing (or future) backlash effects.
---[Ushaara on 11/28 @ 02:31 writes]:
Oops, misread Janalon's question. HeftyAxe and HeftySword are quite different in
that they have a chance to fire when the warrior attacks and hits their
opponent's parry, which is different to the passive nature of riposte/coule. In
this situation hitting backlashes is fine.
---[Janalon on 11/28 @ 02:35 writes]:
When you say BioCurrents hit you for 429, were you fulled deffed as you would be
for combat? Understood regarding rebounding. That aside, how do HeftyAxe and
HeftySword respond against BioCurrents and the like? You never answered this
aspect of my previous comment. Riposte/Coule should act in the exactly same
manner. Anything else should require a separate report so as not to bog down the
problem/solution as exactly worded (sans comments) in this report.
---[Ushaara on 11/28 @ 04:00 writes]:
Talked with Janalon directly about her concerns and to clarify differences
between riposte/coule and heftyaxe/sword. I believe we are now in agreement that
passive counters such as riposte/coule should not themselves trigger the
counters mentioned above. Hopefully this comment represents her opinion
adequately, rather than me putting extra words in her mouth.
---[Janalon on 11/29 @ 03:32 writes]:
Ush explained why the hefty axe/sword point is moot, and answered many of my
other questions. Correct. We are in agreement about the basic premise of this
report: monks should not be immune to riposte/coule. However, there is still
some grey area. I was informed riposte/coule procs Justice & parry. It is hard
to completely agree with Ush that riposte/coule trigger common counters (such as
Justice/parry), AND be immune against monk counters (such as BioCurrents). It
should be all or nothing, not guild specific immunity (i.e. the basic premise of
this report). In other words, riposte/coule should behave like ScorpionTail in
bypassing various counters & defenses, or act like a proper weapon strike with a
chance to proc parry, Justice, BioCurrents, etc (perhaps with heavier
damage/wounds). I would ask for the Admin's further consideration to this aspect
of the report.
---[Enyalida on 11/30 @ 22:17 writes]:
I don't think that any passive recoil effect should trigger other passive recoil
effects.