112864-how-many-people-are-really-leaving-wildstar-page-2

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As far as uniqueness goes, show me another Sci-Fi MMO with action combat, I dare you.  Or maybe one with the humor and style of WS?
 
City of Heroes was a niche MMO published by NCSoft and ran for 8 years.  Nuff said.
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			I thought I would reply to this. I just logged in to check and see how things were going. My server is completely empty right now. My neighbors, friends and guildies haven't been online for 1 week to 1 month. I thought it might have just been coincidence, so I check the main city. I looked everywhere and didn't see a soul. It's late, but no server should be this empty on an MMO. All of the other servers are also at a low pop and there are transfers available for free to servers that had a big shot full population for the longest time. I'm pretty sure the game is running extremely low on players, at least for North American from what I've seen, but it is almost 1 AM right now where I am, but even so at least several people should be in the city you'd think. I thought the game started great, but I don't see it lasting at this rate.	
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Yes and no, as has been said.
 
People that are used to snooze-fest gaming are leaving.  "Why work to play a game.  It's not work, it's a game"
 
Others are going on break from the game until things are fixed and updated.  These people are mostly the ones who hit cap in the first week and have long since done everything (outside of Raids).  They are bored and some will come back when they see enough has been added to give them joy again.
 
Others are staying because this is what they've been waiting for.  Working to get something done, feeling like you really did something, true "epic" gaming moments, etc.  It's what a lot of people have been craving since BC of WoW.
 
I am of the third group.  I'm here until the servers get turned off, life permiting.
 
 
@ZombieTechnix
 
I miss Hellgate.  Global is ok, but not quite the same.	 	
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			It's a good broken game that barely anyone likes and the people that do like it I guess don't like crowds?	
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			I'm definitely sticking with Wildstar especially with all the new updates and changes/fixes coming. And megaservers! I've just started a gaming community and am recruiting for our guild which has been incredibly hard but I'm hoping it becomes easier with the megaserver merge and as people get to know me better and see that we have something really good. 	
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Tell me what you think!
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			Noticed a drop in numbers in Skullkickers on Elvindra today as well as a lack of people logging in. :(	
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			i was going to post here yesterday and say its not as bad as ppl think but i am still in a queue for an adventure War of the Wilds i think its called at lvl 28 as a tank/dps and the queue is still going after 30 mins guess no one likes the adventure :P 	
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Well once we're talking about AA, I think Wildstar would be in a better position if they did what AA is doing. Have it F2P, but keep housing and other features locked unless they have a subscription.
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Doesn't matter how good AA is when it is worse than unplayable. It's F2P sure, but at the risk of destroying your computer. Wait until it hits the market and really gets on the path of destruction.
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 It's F2P sure, but at the risk of destroying your computer. 
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Got any links? Because I was considering checking it out and... that's kind of scary. :huh:
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Hey you know what? there is still too many people connected late during evening. Can't click the damn PvP Schematic seller with all your *cupcake* bikes and stuff over him. BACK OFF!
 
:)	
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I'm on hiatus.  Haven't logged in in a while.  Have an active sub but will cancel this month.  The way things turned out was pretty painful to me, given I was fanatical about this game since it was announced.  I'm hoping the game will be in a better state by the time WoD comes out and I get bored of it.  
 
The worst part is I don't even miss WildStar.  After the first few days of wishing I could sprint and double jump, I got over it and have been having fun since. 	
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I'm on hiatus.  Haven't logged in in a while.  Have an active sub but will cancel this month.  The way things turned out was pretty painful to me, given I was fanatical about this game since it was announced.  I'm hoping the game will be in a better state by the time WoD comes out and I get bored of it.  
 
The worst part is I don't even miss WildStar.  After the first few days of wishing I could sprint and double jump, I got over it and have been having fun since. 
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It's a sad thing to say, both about the situation and myself, that one of the few reasons I am playing is because of I have gametime lasting till December.
 
Another is that I believe in the content of the next drop will improve many issues that are making the game hemorrhage more population than it should be during this time (I am aware this is still in the launch lull period) Hope is for the foolish some say...
 
I look at these forums and  Wildstar reddit, seeing so much negativity and so much speculation on what's gone wrong; I feel that... it all supports the further loss of players, and even damages internal workings at Carbine.
 
Carbine is not CCP, it is owned by NCsoft, their hands are chained to the whims of that company, and this coupled with the studio's action prepping for launch and post-launch (new staff/loss of old staff), has lead to floppy reactions to the public and a sluggishness to react. Just the patching release structure alone displays disconnects running rampant in the studio.
 
I expect the game to level out soon, but things aren't gonna look rosy for quite a while I fear... I'll still be here though, raiding and hoping for at least my guild to pickup a bit more life as we raid...	
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Difficulty isn't the only reason, lack of content is another reason, but it is certainly tied to difficulty and the difficulty curve.  There is plenty of content if you want to raid difficult content, which the majority of the playerbase does not want to do, even if that is what they thought they wanted.  However, Carbine touted having adventures, shiphands, and solo content as easier content.  Except with only 4 adventures, 0 max level shiphands, and 2 daily quest locations at max level, there just isn't enough easier or less time consuming content to satisfy the majority of players once they cap, and that content is also not rewarding enough.  
 
Content is not fun when it is outside your difficulty tolerance (either too easy or too hard), and there is very little content for the easy to medium difficulty range.  Carbine attempted, but failed to mold the population into "hardcore" raiders.  So both the players who knew they weren't going to raid, and players who raided or tried to raid and found out it wasn't for them, have no content to fall back on at level cap, and with the linear, and quite uninspired, leveling process there is very little replay value, and certainly not enough to warrant a sub.  Carbine essentially delivered raid or bust, but with no corresponding difficulty levels.
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Don't mind grinding but when there is little to no reward like in WS it's not all that fun. I mean I been playing D3 ladder and you can't get any more grindy than that but at least when I do play...I go forward instead of treading water. Plus I have friends there so that makes a massive difference I suppose.
 
Was logging in to do EG cap but now I just don't feel like it no more...
 
Guess I am done with the MMO genre on a whole; it's always the same with 'new' MMOs. :(
 
WS coulda, shoulda, but just didn't quite do it for me...it had such potential but to many bad decisions and super slow updates kills it for me. I also play a F2P online TPS + a B2P MMO and they BOTH have 3x the monthly updates than this sub based game....that tells all if you ask me.
 
20 year vet signing out, GL to all that's left!	
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forgot to Mention, Did my weekly Wildstar mining plot maint. last night.
 
Step 1: Repair Plot
Step 2: get items from mailbox
Step 3: Replace neighbors that havent logged in for 1week+
 
I removed 20 people for the week on my first character, and 15 on 2nd. (a few were duplicates, but not all between the 2 accounts	
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			Less QQ more PEW PEW	
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I don't really consider myself as quitting.  I knew at the beginning that Wildstar was probably not for me longterm.  I did my homework and I knew what Wildstar's End-game would be like.  I knew my casual schedule would not fit well with it.  Although I'm casual, I enjoy difficulty and therefore Wildstar appealed to me for that and many other reasons, and so, I bought the game with a couple months of subscription.  I did not regret my purchase.  I loved the levelling experience.  Leveling in MMOs may not be difficult at all but Wildstar at least provided some difficulty to it.  I loved the combat system.  I loved the Dungeons I ran.  The Lore is fun.  The environment is amazing.  The housing is epic.  I can really go on and on about the things I love about Wildstar.  But, in the end, it's all about the End-Game that sustains subscriptions, including mine.  
 
So once again, I'll go back to the game that has made their End-Game accessible to all.  I won't knock Carbine for their lack of accessibility.  They had a vision for their End-Game and they executed it.  I respect them for that.  I hope the best for Wildstar.  I hope the best because I'm sure I'll be back at some point to experience Nexus again.  With that said, even for an unofficial "I quit" post, we need at least two complaints, lol.
 
1.  The cost of stuff is too much.  I understand the need for Gold sinks but it doesn't need to be EVERYTHING! haha.  There is no reason for plot repairs and certainly no need for the Dye costs.  
 
2.  Optimization.  This game has been in the works for a long time and they released it on one platform.  AMD users got the shaft.  
 
Anyway, good luck to you all.  The game has a ton of potential.  I'll see you next time.....on Nexus!	
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Also, offtopic, but related. I find it hilarious that the game hoppers are all putting their faith in ArchAge as the next big thing. If players are saying that WS was/is a niche game....then ArchAge is even more niche than WS was ever designed to be.
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I don't really consider myself as quitting.  I knew at the beginning that Wildstar was probably not for me longterm.  I did my homework and I knew what Wildstar's End-game would be like.  I knew my casual schedule would not fit well with it.  Although I'm casual, I enjoy difficulty and therefore Wildstar appealed to me for that and many other reasons, and so, I bought the game with a couple months of subscription.  I did not regret my purchase.  I loved the levelling experience.  Leveling in MMOs may not be difficult at all but Wildstar at least provided some difficulty to it.  I loved the combat system.  I loved the Dungeons I ran.  The Lore is fun.  The environment is amazing.  The housing is epic.  I can really go on and on about the things I love about Wildstar.  But, in the end, it's all about the End-Game that sustains subscriptions, including mine.  
 
So once again, I'll go back to the game that has made their End-Game accessible to all.  I won't knock Carbine for their lack of accessibility.  They had a vision for their End-Game and they executed it.  I respect them for that.  I hope the best for Wildstar.  I hope the best because I'm sure I'll be back at some point to experience Nexus again.  With that said, even for an unofficial "I quit" post, we need at least two complaints, lol.
 
1.  The cost of stuff is too much.  I understand the need for Gold sinks but it doesn't need to be EVERYTHING! haha.  There is no reason for plot repairs and certainly no need for the Dye costs.  
 
2.  Optimization.  This game has been in the works for a long time and they released it on one platform.  AMD users got the shaft.  
 
Anyway, good luck to you all.  The game has a ton of potential.  I'll see you next time.....on Nexus!
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So once again, I'll go back to the game that has made their End-Game accessible to all. 
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You and a lot of other people, it seems.
 
Who would have thought that people really DO want to see everything they're paying to support?
 
Weird, huh?
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Everyone wants to own a '68 Ford Mustang that they can customize and tinker with.  Very few people want to build one from scratch using the original plans and steel press.  Same idea.  Accessibility but a challenge?  Sure.  Great idea.  
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			I'm still here, so is my husband, two other couples, and another friend of ours.  We're mostly casual players, though we may team up to do some bigger stuff later on.  It's all about the housing for quite a few of us.	
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This analogy kind of lost me, a little bit. :D  But it's early yet.
 
I don't want a Mustang. I'm happy with my Jeep. I enjoy it and have a good time driving it. I don't begrudge those who drive Mustangs - but my money also doesn't go to support their Mustang habit, now does it?
 
As it stands, non-Raiders are basically paying for Raiders to have content and aren't even getting to see what color the Mustangs are, much less getting to ride in them.
 
I don't like resorting to the old "This is 2014" line of crap, but the Mustang-drivers of yesteryear are driving Volvo station wagons today. Apparently, the Volvo crowd really DOESN'T want to stick around and watch the Mustang-crowd strut and crow, after all. And they CERTAINLY aren't going to keep sinking money in to the Mustang-Only race track - especially since the races aren't even televised. ;)
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I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread and probably won't for a few days (work, blah).
 
But I just wanted to stop in to say this:
 
I'm not leaving, nor are my guildies.  There's stuff we'd like to see changed or improved, sure.  Things like:
 
- Attunement not being as much of a brick wall (this is being worked on, apparently)
- Itemization being less random (this is also being worked on, apparently)
- Something fun to replace boring dailies (veteran shiphands might do this, if there's any indication?)
- Lots more stuff...
 
When I think about our list of things at least half of them are already in progress.  Which means that we just have to be patient and let the devs get those things out to us.  Patience has limits, sure, but we're not at the limit of our patience yet.
 
I feel bad for people who are fed up and feel like they have to throw in the towel.  But I hope that enough folks are able to stay optimistic and find some fun in the game they have to play right now, so that the devs have the chance to address the things that they need to.	
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Don't mind grinding but when there is little to no reward like in WS it's not all that fun. I mean I been playing D3 ladder and you can't get any more grindy than that but at least when I do play...I go forward instead of treading water. Plus I have friends there so that makes a massive difference I suppose.
 
Was logging in to do EG cap but now I just don't feel like it no more...
 
Guess I am done with the MMO genre on a whole; it's always the same with 'new' MMOs. :(
 
WS coulda, shoulda, but just didn't quite do it for me...it had such potential but to many bad decisions and super slow updates kills it for me. I also play a F2P online TPS + a B2P MMO and they BOTH have 3x the monthly updates than this sub based game....that tells all if you ask me.
 
20 year vet signing out, GL to all that's left!
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But, really though?  There are only two raids and they're finally getting around to introducing a new one with the next drop.  I don't really feel like we're supporting raiders considering they've barely gotten more than bug fixes so far, while solo players and PVPers have gotten the bulk of the new content.
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Well, yes, really.
 
It's not the content, it's the reward-level.
 
Like it or not, Raiding gets you the best gear. Since 99% (or more) of the population is never going to finish a Raid here, much less complete one, then yeah ... that means the rest of us are paying money so a tiny little percentage of the population gets the glory of raiding. If there were other ways to get similar rewards, without the hassle of putting together 20/40 man "Perfect Dancing" raiding teams, then maybe it wouldn't feel like that.
 
If the ultimate goal is better gear, and the best gear is unobtainable to the vast majority, then the vast majority has little to lose by packing up and going to a game where they CAN see the coolest fights and at least have half-ass "better" gear.
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This analogy kind of lost me, a little bit. :D  But it's early yet.
 
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Totally haven't slept since Monday morning.  I was going for "Everyone wants to own the cool car" but "very few people want to build the cool car from the ground up".  Make that applicable to Wildstar.  The raids can be challenging, but don't make them seemingly impossible to get to.
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			/shrug	
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but...they not impossible to get too.....
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			thats why they are always giving costumes and housing stuff in each patch, raiding gear is about stats, but if you arent a raider the thing you want is the visuals of the gear and thats given with each patch... they should give more? hell yes, but thats a thing they are working on, to get the point that the casual player with a bit of challenge or grinding can get shinyes for the use he will give em (visual)	
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It's doubly hilarious because many of them don't even realize that ArcheAge launched in Korea as a P2P game and went F2P within 6 months, then launched in Japan as P2P and went F2P there as well, and yet they'll sneer at WildStar as "doomed to go F2P".  :rolleyes:
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I love all the AA and wow hate on the forums from all the fanboi's
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Almost no people in Illium, almost no new items on the AH, maps void of all human life when roaming around, long queues to BGs and Dungeons and so on. Me and three IRL friends started playing the same day the game was released, the last one of them left about a week ago out of boredom and bugs, all off them said they will not be back.
 
Yeah, this game is NOT doing fine.	
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Well, yes, really.
 
It's not the content, it's the reward-level.
 
Like it or not, Raiding gets you the best gear. Since 99% (or more) of the population is never going to finish a Raid here, much less complete one, then yeah ... that means the rest of us are paying money so a tiny little percentage of the population gets the glory of raiding. If there were other ways to get similar rewards, without the hassle of putting together 20/40 man "Perfect Dancing" raiding teams, then maybe it wouldn't feel like that.
 
If the ultimate goal is better gear, and the best gear is unobtainable to the vast majority, then the vast majority has little to lose by packing up and going to a game where they CAN see the coolest fights and at least have half-ass "better" gear.
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If Human is not raiding.....why need raid gear?
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But people THINK they are. #Hardcore made a ton of peeps I know go.. "Oh.. oh no. I'm not doing 4 months of grinding just to play Dark Souls, the 20 player edition."
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I love all the AA and wow hate on the forums from all the fanboi's
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It's not impossible to get through attunement, but getting a full group through and keeping them is proving to be very difficult for a lot of guilds. (Note: I don't give a *cupcake* if anyone thinks this makes people noobs or whatever. Doesn't change the fact that it's happening.)
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 I just don't think I can get behind the idea that people who put in 5 hours a week and can't find a raiding guild should be able to have the exact same rewards on the exact same time scales as people who play eight times that a week and are actively maintaining that guild.  Not to mention that those people need that level of gear, they really do deserve that gear.  And, if you play eight times as long and do the same thing, you deserve it, too.
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See, this is the kind of attitude that just boggles me.  This has nothing to do with who "deserves" what from a game. It has to do with what people want from a game.  This is a commercial product. If it offers what enough players want, it will succeed, and otherwise it will fail.  
 
No single player gets to make any kind of a call as to what other players "deserve" or what they should be happy to...uh, settle for?....in a game.  It's fine for you to say "Hey, I think I deserve more than that other player over there because I play more!" and it completely and utterly doesn't matter to the success of the game as a whole. If someone pays for a commercial product and they want Thing X out of it, whatever Thing X may happen to be, and Thing X is not forthcoming, that is a gone customer.  
 
So say Player A thinks he "deserves" more than Player B. So what? Player B doesn't have to give the single tiniest iota of thought to Player A's opinion. Player A doesn't come into the equation at all.  It's between Player B and the game company, and that's it.  Period.  
 
Just imagine this dialogue: 
 
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Player B to Game Company: "I would like Thing X from your game! Give it to me and you can have my money." 
 
Player A to Game Company: "NO! Don't give Player B that Thing X! He doesn't deserve it! It's for me only because I worked for it and he didn't!"
 
Game Company: "Sorry, Player B, we can't give you want you want.  Player A thinks you shouldn't have it. But...uh...Player B, please, we'd like to still keep your money, okay?"
 
Player B to Game Company: "Uh...what? Who the frakk is Player A and what does he have to do with this? This is between you and me, Game Company. Am I gonna get Thing X or not?"
 
Game Company to Player B: "Player A will be so very very upset....he feels disrespected and unloved if we give you the content too."
 
Player B to Game Company: "I...uh...I still have no idea who Player A is or why I should care about his feelings. This is about you and me and my money. So, can I have Thing X or not?"
 
Game Company to Player B: "We'll give you this other shiny toy, you'll like it! But we're giving Thing X only to Player A. That way you and Player A can both be happy. So we're okay on the money, right?"
 
Player B to Game Company: "What the hell? Again with this Player A person? No, that's not what I wanted. Guess I'll have to go elsewhere with my cash. I hope Player A, whoever he is, gives you back those blackmail pics or whatever he has on you." 
 
Game Company: "No! WAIT!....Damn. He left. And he took his ten friends with him." 
 
Player A to Game Company: "I'm still here! I still love you!!! You didn't give that whiny Player B my precious pixels! Never change!"
 
Game Company to Player A: "Hey, that's great! We love you too! So, you're going to pay for all the subs we just lost keeping you happy, right? Because that's the only way we're keeping the doors open. What was your credit card number again?"
 
(End Scene)
 
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No on, absolutely no one, who plays an MMO gives a flying rodent's behind about what the other players think he deserves.  They care about whether or not they're getting their money's worth from the game and that's it. Any player who thinks he gets some say in what other players should be willing to shell out for is utterly delusional. 
 
And any game company who listens to delusional players ...well, market forces will deal with that insanity in short order. 
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I already cancelled.  I'll check in from time to time to see if it's worth getting in to again.  I hope so.  I had such high hopes for WildStar.  I hope at the very least, all other companies learn once and for all: Hardcore is a tiny, tiny niche.  Cater to it, and expect to be a tiny, tiny game.
 
Casual open ended games are the future where "hardcore" is defined by the player, not the dev.  Carbine: Take WildStar off the rails a little bit, nerf it a bit, ditch the time gates.  Yes you'll probably run off some of your "hardcores" but guess what? You DON'T WANT THEM.  This are the people who foment an unpleasant elitist atmosphere in games. They run off other players in droves.
 
Get ready for it PvP server folk.  You are all going to Pergo.  And it ain't pretty there.	
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You don't deserve endgame level gear for paying a subscription.  If you believe that, there are plenty of games out there that will allow you to purchase endgame gear and run the endgame ad infinatum.  I can't speak to the quality of those games for that very reason, but it is a very direct money-to-reward system.
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I'm so totally, thoroughly sick of certain parts of the gamer base acting like they have a right to dictate what other players should be happy to settle for in a game.  It's not your call, has never been your call, and will never be your call. 
 
That part of the gamer base deserves a good swift kick in the pants until they drop the attitude.
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And I'm sick of the attitude that you should get welfare gear. If the game has gear progression, the best gear should be something that you have to put a lot of work into getting. If you just want to get the best gear with out having to put work and time into it, then play a game without gear progression.
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HOLY SHIIIIIIIIZLE. All the wall of text hurt my eyes...
 
To get back on the real topic: No one knows, and no one will ever know. Why? Because NCSoft is not the type of company that will release such numbers. They run a tight ship and right now, whatever people says, they are smooth sailing (not talking about Wildstar here btw). All in all, only future will tell, and even if you predict that a storm is coming while playing with chicken bones doesn't mean you know the future.
 
Peace out bra, keep on playing and keep on punching those QQer right in the nuts.	
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Oh and BTW Maytree, your point is as valid as the one you quote. And yes, people care that the one you quote don't want welfare gear, and yes people care that you want welfare gear (or whatever you want, because I haven't read all the post you made because I was shocked by the way you handle debate).
 
If no one care, why are they so many people here, on this forum, GIVING THEIR OPINION, getting their comment liked, getting their comment quote, getting their comment refered to... BECAUSE PEOPLE CARE.
 
 
edit: the more I think about what you said, the more I am pissed. It's like telling people to not go vote because they shouldn't believe that their opinion matter. I'm not usually/easily angry... but I don't know man... you got to me real hard	
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I do not and never will understand players whose enjoyment of a game is based on getting crap other people can't. Are you enjoying the game for what it is? Or is it just the illusory superiority that's attractive to you? 
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			Given the variety of attitudes that come with MMOs, I'm amazed they exist beyond Diablo 3 and Torchlight.  The communities come just shy of tearing one another apart.  It's impressive, really.  	
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The communities come just shy of tearing one another apart.
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*snip
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Man plz... don't quote that post.... Don't bring back bad memories...
 
edit: cuz you know, no one care like he said	
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See the bright side bud, as strong is their hatred toward each other, as strong are their love for the game. And they will rise together to stand for what they believe in, as one. That's the nature of the MMO community beast.
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52.4632391 people are unsurely "leaving" Wildstar.
 
43.3913721 people are kind of "leaving" Wildstar.
 
19.2134212 people are literally "leaving" Wildstar.
 
82.3152321 people are dubiously "leaving" Wildstar.
 
 
therefore, the answer to your question is 42.
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52.4632391 people are unsurely "leaving" Wildstar.
 
43.3913721 people are kind of "leaving" Wildstar.
 
19.2134212 people are literally "leaving" Wildstar.
 
82.3152321 people are dubiously "leaving" Wildstar.
 
 
therefore, the answer to your question is 42.	
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They are definitely a passionate bunch, I'll give MMOs that.  On the upside, at least it's never as bad as League of Legends or DOTA2.  lol  
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But no towel?  Crap.  
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I'm not dictating what other gamers should be happy with. I'm just talking about what I want in a game. If gear progression is meaning less then don't have gear progression. Welfare gear makes gear progression meaningless. And maybe that's where MMOs should evolve into where there's no gear progression. But wildstar has gear progression. The best gear for raiding you get in raiding, best gear for vet dungeons you get in vet dungeons, best pvp gear you get from PvPing(Honestly don't like PvP gear progression past level 50).
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Well, Vic... I have seen an old but goodie system (that devs decided to later ruin... oy!).
 
A system where you need not choose and in fact forces the ones wanting "the best" to engage in all of the content.  Not just raid, log off, dailies, log off.  But actually engage with most aspects of the game.  And if you wanted to only do the small group content, you got some unique pieces but you didn't have every BIS because some pieces were raid pieces.
 
So what was this fantastic system?  Let me show you the way.
 
Once upon a time I had a wizard.  I'm going to list some of the BIS that she desperately needed and I really wanted for her.
 
1. Crafted stat items for HP and mana with very unique abilities on them.  Either run a raid for mats (still RNG-ish) or pay for the base and mats from other players.  Player's choice.
2. Event robe from the Halloween event.  Farm with full group (was it 5 or 6 people in DDO... forgot) and farm outside by yourself for mats to join the group.  Fun event. [this robe was for solo-ing and dungeon content, not for boss fights]
3. Ring that gave you extra mana - base from a rare mob in the "openish" world.  Long long long solo farm.  We are talking 5 years and still no sight of it. To make it very powerful (was already strong as base) you ran dungeons, farmed mobs in dungeons, and did a raid.
4. DPS robes [for boss fights]: options between something that could be farmed from dungeons, a raid or challenges (small timed content that rewarded mats for how well you did)
5. DPS armor pieces: challenges. there was some piece for ice, lighting, fire, acid, you picked which way you built your wizard and went for it.
6. Caster stick from a raid with mats - PITA raid, low drops, usual funsies.
7. Necklace that returned mana on being hit - raid for base, dungeons, mobs and raid for the epic version.
8. Crafted pieces to fill in what's missing.
 
We had plenty of items that required the full gambit of content to finish.  We had interesting drops that were unique to some dungeons and rare mobs.  We had useful items from crafting, raid crafting and challenges.  Few things ever sellable.
On top of which the raids themselves varied in difficulty so there was something for even the more timid... there were some that were puggable with most people (you got #1 from there).
 
Games need to get with the program and try to make their fans engage with the entire spectrum of content.  That way each section of the content gets people and gives something satisfying.
 
The solo-ists in that game had their little unique gems that they could farm and then sell for a ton or keep as powerful items.  It took a long time to farm but they had their goals.
The people who liked small group content had things from easy to hard dungeons even at cap and most gave something super amazing for at least one class (or class combo).  I remember running some dungeons into the ground trying to get the best 2 armor piece set for melee (huge dps increase, everyone wanted them).  No raid item was better than those two. 
The raid people got lots of uniques from the raids and with the epic system got parts of an epic level item from doing epic raids.  I remember how much people ran for that mana necklace or for the melee dps ring (again, every melee wanted it).
 
They all had something to strive for, something unique, special, something that the other guys couldn't get.  It was still a hard niche game but that wasn't the gear's fault.
 
Wildstar and other MMOs could stand to open their eyes and start realizing that BIS from various sections of content that don't compete with one another is healthier than raid gear being supreme.
 
 
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
But the entire reason for that high end gear and the most awesome fights are because raiding is awesome and you need better gear to do it.  If soloing or five man gear is just as good as raiding gear, how would they tune boss damage for a 20 or 40 man fight?  Besides that, why on Earth would anyone who has no intention of ever raiding be worried about getting gear that can output the damage of something meant for 20-40 people for their five man boss?  Raiding gear is like that to serve a purpose.  Besides that, there will always be something you get from raids that you can't get elsewhere; if there are players refusing to do 5 man content because it's not going to get them what a 20 man team can get, there would be even less incentive for a 20 man team to do anything if you could get it with a five man team.
 
Maybe it's having done so much raiding in my life that I just don't get why people feel they're incapable, for one thing, and why if they aren't putting in any of the work for a raid that the rewards for what they do should be equivalent.  I don't feel like I deserve BIS equivalent gear on my characters because I built a cool house, no matter how much time I put into it.
 
I mean, frankly, I'm actually here because so many games are ready to dole out gear to also-rans.  I'm not walking into a raid anytime soon and I'm not in any kind of a hurry to be there yet, but I want my gear to mean something.  If they got rid of the massive RNG issue, it's exactly what I'd think raiding should be.  Brutal, well-coordinated, and perfect for 40 people.  Yeah, that's really hard to do, but that's precisely what it should be.  Hard.
 
It's not Carbine's fault that five man and solo content is markedly easier because it has to be tuned for less people making mistakes.  So solo-only and small group players finish the content faster.  Solo-only players are already bored and mocking Carbine considering they got the bulk of the first drop and most of the game; raiders still aren't through their second raid yet.  I can't help but feel like we're blaming Carbine for making raiding content that requires raids here, and already putting ourselves in the position that things are impossible for us because we aren't playing 50 hours a week.
 
I mean, RNG complaints, I get that.  It's not fun to be completing things flawlessly and still not having the RNGods roll the dice your way.  I understand silver timers for attunement being a PITA since raids don't have overall timers.  I understand complaints about attunement in stages being a *cupcake* for GMs to maintain new raiders and a farm system with.  I just don't think I can get behind the idea that people who put in 5 hours a week and can't find a raiding guild should be able to have the exact same rewards on the exact same time scales as people who play eight times that a week and are actively maintaining that guild.  Not to mention that those people need that level of gear, they really do deserve that gear.  And, if you play eight times as long and do the same thing, you deserve it, too.
 
Part of the problem with the transient nature of a modern MMORPG gamer is that they see, they pay, they conquer, then they leave, and they expect it done soon so they can do... whatever it is people who clear all possible content and have full BIS but don't care about ancillary content do in MMORPGs.  It seems like a kind of Alexandrian dilemma.  They whine, cry, and pitch a fit that they can't get BIS (which, considering no one's finished Datascape yet, no one has yet) in whatever time scale they thought was appropriate, but if gearscore is all they play to achieve, then what would they do if they got what they wanted?  They'd be out of content.
 
The failure to appreciate the journey of development is a big problem for MMORPGs, and is why people seem to hop ship from game to game so frequently, leading to a shift in design philosophy to disposable content that can be quickly and cheaply replenished.  I'm not sure I want to play a game like that anymore, I play MMORPGs because I like them better than going to Gamestop and buying some console candy to keep me occupied for a few weeks or months until something else comes along to shell 60 dollars out for.  In short, people will complain, but I'm really not sure that people want what they say they want.
 
There are legitimate complaints being addressed, but I don't think that being treated like a handicapped player by a game company is something I could get behind.  On paper, it sounds rational, but if it were actually done that I was given kid-mode content so that I could see the inside of Datascape in a month because, obviously, we're not capable, is a little insulting to my ability.  I'm a grown man with a wife, friends, and a job, but I have the time and ability to raid.   And, when I get around to it, I will put together a team or join one in progress.  I find the idea that, because I don't play 50 hours a week and won't finish GA by the time of Drop3, I'm somehow incapable of being a constructive part of a 20 or 40 man raid, a little condescending.
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			This game went for raid or die and we are seeing the result of what subscribers wanted from endgame.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, Vic... I have seen an old but goodie system (that devs decided to later ruin... oy!).
 
A system where you need not choose and in fact forces the ones wanting "the best" to engage in all of the content.  Not just raid, log off, dailies, log off.  But actually engage with most aspects of the game.  And if you wanted to only do the small group content, you got some unique pieces but you didn't have every BIS because some pieces were raid pieces.
 
So what was this fantastic system?  Let me show you the way.
 
Once upon a time I had a wizard.  I'm going to list some of the BIS that she desperately needed and I really wanted for her.
 
1. Crafted stat items for HP and mana with very unique abilities on them.  Either run a raid for mats (still RNG-ish) or pay for the base and mats from other players.  Player's choice.
2. Event robe from the Halloween event.  Farm with full group (was it 5 or 6 people in DDO... forgot) and farm outside by yourself for mats to join the group.  Fun event. [this robe was for solo-ing and dungeon content, not for boss fights]
3. Ring that gave you extra mana - base from a rare mob in the "openish" world.  Long long long solo farm.  We are talking 5 years and still no sight of it. To make it very powerful (was already strong as base) you ran dungeons, farmed mobs in dungeons, and did a raid.
4. DPS robes [for boss fights]: options between something that could be farmed from dungeons, a raid or challenges (small timed content that rewarded mats for how well you did)
5. DPS armor pieces: challenges. there was some piece for ice, lighting, fire, acid, you picked which way you built your wizard and went for it.
6. Caster stick from a raid with mats - PITA raid, low drops, usual funsies.
7. Necklace that returned mana on being hit - raid for base, dungeons, mobs and raid for the epic version.
8. Crafted pieces to fill in what's missing.
 
We had plenty of items that required the full gambit of content to finish.  We had interesting drops that were unique to some dungeons and rare mobs.  We had useful items from crafting, raid crafting and challenges.  Few things ever sellable.
On top of which the raids themselves varied in difficulty so there was something for even the more timid... there were some that were puggable with most people (you got #1 from there).
 
Games need to get with the program and try to make their fans engage with the entire spectrum of content.  That way each section of the content gets people and gives something satisfying.
 
The solo-ists in that game had their little unique gems that they could farm and then sell for a ton or keep as powerful items.  It took a long time to farm but they had their goals.
The people who liked small group content had things from easy to hard dungeons even at cap and most gave something super amazing for at least one class (or class combo).  I remember running some dungeons into the ground trying to get the best 2 armor piece set for melee (huge dps increase, everyone wanted them).  No raid item was better than those two. 
The raid people got lots of uniques from the raids and with the epic system got parts of an epic level item from doing epic raids.  I remember how much people ran for that mana necklace or for the melee dps ring (again, every melee wanted it).
 
They all had something to strive for, something unique, special, something that the other guys couldn't get.  It was still a hard niche game but that wasn't the gear's fault.
 
Wildstar and other MMOs could stand to open their eyes and start realizing that BIS from various sections of content that don't compete with one another is healthier than raid gear being supreme.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, Vic... I have seen an old but goodie system (that devs decided to later ruin... oy!).
 
A system where you need not choose and in fact forces the ones wanting "the best" to engage in all of the content.  Not just raid, log off, dailies, log off.  But actually engage with most aspects of the game.  And if you wanted to only do the small group content, you got some unique pieces but you didn't have every BIS because some pieces were raid pieces.
 
So what was this fantastic system?  Let me show you the way.
 
Once upon a time I had a wizard.  I'm going to list some of the BIS that she desperately needed and I really wanted for her.
 
1. Crafted stat items for HP and mana with very unique abilities on them.  Either run a raid for mats (still RNG-ish) or pay for the base and mats from other players.  Player's choice.
2. Event robe from the Halloween event.  Farm with full group (was it 5 or 6 people in DDO... forgot) and farm outside by yourself for mats to join the group.  Fun event. [this robe was for solo-ing and dungeon content, not for boss fights]
3. Ring that gave you extra mana - base from a rare mob in the "openish" world.  Long long long solo farm.  We are talking 5 years and still no sight of it. To make it very powerful (was already strong as base) you ran dungeons, farmed mobs in dungeons, and did a raid.
4. DPS robes [for boss fights]: options between something that could be farmed from dungeons, a raid or challenges (small timed content that rewarded mats for how well you did)
5. DPS armor pieces: challenges. there was some piece for ice, lighting, fire, acid, you picked which way you built your wizard and went for it.
6. Caster stick from a raid with mats - PITA raid, low drops, usual funsies.
7. Necklace that returned mana on being hit - raid for base, dungeons, mobs and raid for the epic version.
8. Crafted pieces to fill in what's missing.
 
We had plenty of items that required the full gambit of content to finish.  We had interesting drops that were unique to some dungeons and rare mobs.  We had useful items from crafting, raid crafting and challenges.  Few things ever sellable.
On top of which the raids themselves varied in difficulty so there was something for even the more timid... there were some that were puggable with most people (you got #1 from there).
 
Games need to get with the program and try to make their fans engage with the entire spectrum of content.  That way each section of the content gets people and gives something satisfying.
 
The solo-ists in that game had their little unique gems that they could farm and then sell for a ton or keep as powerful items.  It took a long time to farm but they had their goals.
The people who liked small group content had things from easy to hard dungeons even at cap and most gave something super amazing for at least one class (or class combo).  I remember running some dungeons into the ground trying to get the best 2 armor piece set for melee (huge dps increase, everyone wanted them).  No raid item was better than those two. 
The raid people got lots of uniques from the raids and with the epic system got parts of an epic level item from doing epic raids.  I remember how much people ran for that mana necklace or for the melee dps ring (again, every melee wanted it).
 
They all had something to strive for, something unique, special, something that the other guys couldn't get.  It was still a hard niche game but that wasn't the gear's fault.
 
Wildstar and other MMOs could stand to open their eyes and start realizing that BIS from various sections of content that don't compete with one another is healthier than raid gear being supreme.
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			Hey folks, I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread. While it's provided some great feedback, these threads tend to provide more rumor-mongering and speculation than actual facts to the players. Thanks!	
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