143991-revamp-the-roll-system-on-vet-dungeons

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Just making a small point, I hate going on in a dungeon just to see my loots get taken awey from me by a tank/healer, when the whole run drops only support items which I skipped (greed not need), they need to set up "Role roll/need roll/greed roll", every guy in the game just say "yea im dpsing and healing" - and then he need's on your stuff, It's really demoralizing, and I will never ninja roll the healer gear myself, which then causes more anger.
 
In short either make "need" to be class and role specific, or make another roll option "Role roll" ("main spec roll").
 
I really dont see why and how this will affect the game to the worse.
 
P.S maybe even doing this on the Fusion runes (Just today I had healer roll on mordechai and after I asked him, he said he was rolling it for his tank friend which then claimed to be dpsing on raids aswell...)	
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I agree the current loot system needs some work done to it. The community is far to greedy with drops and because of this their needs to be better restrictions to limit them.
 
Tailoring and survivalist mats need to be removed completely from public drops, these should just go to the inventory right away of those with the profession. 
 
Need / Greed should be dependent on class and role like you mentioned. There is no need to add a new roll option to the game however, they just need to adjust the way the current need / greed functions.	
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This is why IMO Dungeons need to drop loot tokens, that are tradeable for gear.
 
Everyone gets some tokens from every run, and then when they get enough tokens buy the gear they want that is appropriate to their class/build.
 
Pppl ninja-loot because they can salvage / sell it even if they will never use it.
 
A token system eliminates that entirely.
 
All The Best	
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I can understand your frustration. And being veteran gear is double the frustration.
 
However its true tanks and healz do need dps gear. 
 
Its a difficult situation. Maybe at the start ask the tank and healer not to ninja you. However if they reply they need the gear too, well that's unfortunate. 
 
Your most likely right, need rolls need to be more specific. Especially when you have to wait much longer than tank and healz.	
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The only way to effectively counter this kind of loot mentality is with something like the personal loot system that WoW implemented.
 
Unfortunately even that has the limitation of loot drops being RNG.  Initially many people were going entire dungeon runs multiple times in a row without getting any drops.  They changed it so loot is guaranteed off the final boss...and then people kept getting the same items off the boss and nothing else.  Then they had to increase  the volume of loot drops and even then it's still not perfect.
 
Sometimes you really just have to deal with the fact that random people you don't know and are liable to never meed again are probably pretty willing to screw you over for their own benefit.  You can either accept that fact or find friends/a guild to run with so you're doing it with people you trust.
 
Also replacing dungeon loot with tokens is terrible.  As I understand it veteran dungeons already give players elder gems which are used for gear anyways.  If all you need to do to get gear is farm tokens then the only thing people are going to do is find the fastest/easiest thing to run and avoid all other content like the plague because it makes gearing take longer.  That's just dull.	
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I want to add, that there are even devilish people who actuelly need on the items inorder to make costums or salvage (yea I cant tell how many time iv whisperd a guy on dung/world boss grp and he said he needs it for costums or he wants 2plat since he's gonna salvage it)
 
But seriously, I know it's part of the game, but frankly it really shouldn't, it's promoting ninja and a real bad taste of the dungeon system, after completing a long ass hard (yes if u pug the vet they are pretty hard) and then when finally a loot drops it get's ninja'd... well im probobly gonna log off for the rest of the day (this isnt rent about it and threatning to leave, the game is far too awesome, ppl greed isnt...)	
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The only way to effectively counter this kind of loot mentality is with something like the personal loot system that WoW implemented.
 
Also replacing dungeon loot with tokens is terrible.  As I understand it veteran dungeons already give players elder gems which are used for gear anyways.  If all you need to do to get gear is farm tokens then the only thing people are going to do is find the fastest/easiest thing to run and avoid all other content like the plague because it makes gearing take longer.  That's just dull.
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This is why IMO Dungeons need to drop loot tokens, that are tradeable for gear.
 
Everyone gets some tokens from every run, and then when they get enough tokens buy the gear they want that is appropriate to their class/build.
 
Pppl ninja-loot because they can salvage / sell it even if they will never use it.
 
A token system eliminates that entirely.
 
All The Best
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So, now I need on tokens, trade for gear and salvage it, what the difference? Role/gear type separation is way better. You are healer? you can only greed on dps gear. DPSing? There you go, you can't need on support gear.
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			 Dungeons already give glory points.. so a dungeon token system is a redundancy. Just because you run one dungeon doesn't mean you deserve an up grade every time. That makes dungeons pointless. Unless the loot tables have changed dungeon gear doesn't equate to pre raid gear anyways in this game.	
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No reason to Need on Tokens.
 
Everyone downing Boss A in Dungeon Y gets the appropriate Token.
 
So everyone who puts effort in gets something out.
 
I'd have each piece of Gear require one Unique Token and sat 10 - 20 Generic Tokens and have Generic Tokens drop so that they are shared equally by all group members.
 
Reward effort with tangible progress towards that next bit of gear; rather than rewarding effort with an RNG system that sees most people get nothing of value.
 
Would you go to work for a few hours if the wages for those hours were handed out randomly?  Sure once in a blue moon you may get your bosses wage packet, but far more often you'd get the Intern's empty pay packet, or the Minimum Wages guy's pay packet.
 
How long would it take for you decide that the effort/reward equation was stiffing you?
 
All The Best
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No reason to Need on Tokens.
 
Everyone downing Boss A in Dungeon Y gets the appropriate Token.
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Back when Wildstar first went into closed beta, when we got our first detailed look at it in the gaming press, I lost my mind over three design decisions:
 
No high-end content except ultra-hard-mode raids? Really?	 	Subscription? Really? and ...	 	Need/Greed/Pass? Really? What, is it still 2003 somewhere?
Eventually they smartened up and changed their minds on #1 and #2. So I haven't completely given up hope that some day soon they'll realize how much better a system it is to give everybody who gets credit for the kill or for the run a percentage chance of getting their own class-appropriate loot. Need/greed/pass turns players against each other. Individual loot rolls gives players an incentive to help each other.	
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Back when Wildstar first went into closed beta, when we got our first detailed look at it in the gaming press, I lost my mind over three design decisions:
 
No high-end content except ultra-hard-mode raids? Really?	 
	Subscription? Really? and ...	 
	Need/Greed/Pass? Really? What, is it still 2003 somewhere?
Eventually they smartened up and changed their minds on #1 and #2. So I haven't completely given up hope that some day soon they'll realize how much better a system it is to give everybody who gets credit for the kill or for the run a percentage chance of getting their own class-appropriate loot. Need/greed/pass turns players against each other. Individual loot rolls gives players an incentive to help each other.
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The only way to effectively counter this kind of loot mentality is with something like the personal loot system that WoW implemented.
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			I don't see a token system as being that different from what we have now, which I would call a hybrid system. Running a dungeon you have 3 possibilities for loot 1) drops from bosses 2) pay to unlock chest at the end (which guarantees you a piece of usable gear) and 3) glory gear. Since you earn glory as a currency from doing dungeons and can exchange it for dungeon quality gear, it sounds like this system is better, since there is more oppurtunity to get appropriate gear.	
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As much as we all like to *cupcake* about the outcomes of rng.. rng is one of the psychological elements that keep the majority of players hooked. It feeds off our desires to open up our christmas gifts to see whats in them.
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			I don't really support only being able to greed on OS gear. Let's say I'm the only light armor person in the group, but I'm a DPS. A piece of light support gear drops which is an upgrade for my healing set. I should be able to Need on it because I'll get much more use out of it than someone who's just going to salvage it. Just going to personal loot would be the best solution.	
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That some people are psychologically weak and repeatedly fall for this is no reason for it to continue.
 
 
The "dopamine response" simply doesn't work with me, at least not in video games, so I am able to look at the reward systems far more objectively than someone who wets their panties over a pixel or two.
 
If game designers want me to expend effort and/or money on their product they need to reward in a manner I consider commensurate with that effort; RNG loot systems get nowhere near.
 
And for people who think that asking for a commensurate reward for one's effort in game equates to "welfare epics" please, do us all a favour and come back when you can debate like a grown up.
 
I don't want "epic gear" just given to me for no effort - this is what Welfare Epics would be.
 
I want what effort I am prepared to expend to be appropriately rewarded.
 
I never said that we should all get a new upgrade for ever run through a dungeon; becuase I didn't say how many Generic Tokens I think should drop in each Dungeon run.
 
I have no problem with getting one Unique Token for the end boss of a dungeon and maybe needing to run that three or four times to get enough Generic Tokens to get"Tier 1" end-game gear.  Then have people re-run that same content with tougher victory conditions to get tokens to upgrade the Tier of the Gear, for example - so those "1337" players can still strive for something beyond the reach of the 95% of the playerbase who aren't interested in "hardcore" content.
 
And if it takes me 10, 20, 40 runs through to get a decent set of end-game gear then no worries - because EVERY single time I do make such a run through I will tangibly be making progress towards my desired end-goal.
 
RNG doesn't reward effort, and frankly only idiots think it does, it rewards luck; and as other games have shown that "RNG luck" may be predicated on things well beyond the effort of the player to influence - unforeseen effect of coding for example.
 
All The Best
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I don't really support only being able to greed on OS gear. Let's say I'm the only light armor person in the group, but I'm a DPS. A piece of light support gear drops which is an upgrade for my healing set. I should be able to Need on it because I'll get much more use out of it than someone who's just going to salvage it. Just going to personal loot would be the best solution.
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Maybe if dungeon drops like some of the other gear in the game had no value for salvage or vender people might be less concerned about rolling need everytime they could get a gold or a rune off the piece.. that I could support. We already see this in place for other pieces of gear.. so adding it to dungeon gear might help the gear fall into the right hands more frequently.
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Careful with suggestions like this... they could severely damage players' ability to accrue set focuses, rune fragments, and the like.
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			Just establish what's up before hand... They wanna roll on both, you roll on both as well. Get some extra stuff to salvage. No one is really being a super dick if the rules are discussed to begin with. Maybe a normal dick, but it isn't sneaking up on ya, at least.	
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Before WoW went to personal loot it had another system I liked:
 
Rolling need added 100 to the roll IF and ONLY IF it was an item made for your spec.
 
- So everybody could just safely roll need on anything they could roll need on, and the people who were IN THAT SPEC would get priority.
 
BUT this also requires preventing the ability to change your LAS while there is loot up for a roll, or people would rapid spec switch between rolls...
 
 
WoW's personal loot system was used, after this, because no matter what they do, if there is the ability to roll on stuff drama eventually finds a way to get back in... And what happened after the bonus system is that people in the same spec just started complaining against each other...
 
There's really no solution but a personal loot system or a tokens & mats system... and a lot of people just don't like those systems.
 
(Tokens and mats would be a system whereby all loot gets removed and replaced with tokens to buy gear, and/or mats to craft gear... Guild Wars 1 and 2 use variations of this to great success, combined with leveling and trash gear that people don't get upset about losing, that drops as personal rather than rolled gear if I recall right. But I find many non-Guild Wars players freak out over the suggestion of this kind of system even as they complain that crafting is not valued enough... :) ).
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Kichwas	
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Unless the loot tables have changed dungeon gear doesn't equate to pre raid gear anyways in this game.
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I have an engineer and i tank and DPS sometimes, depending on what i like at that point, also im trying to decide on what i prefer, im only level 24 but if a go as a tank i only roll need on support items, the only way i roll need on a DPS item is if no one in my team is a heavy armor DPS, in this case engineers or warriors, that being said i never run need on DPS weapon attachments and all that stuff that can be used by any class, because thats *cupcake*ing unfair if i need a DPS item then i que as a *cupcake*ing DPS and thats it.
 
This would be pretty damn easy to fix if you were unable to put need on a roll that you are not playing at the moment just like now you cant roll need on a type of armor that your class cant use.	
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im sorry.. but what!? it goes vet dungeons.......then raids, there is nothing in-between those 2 forms of pve endgame content, so by all accounts vet dungeon gear equates to pre-raid gear.. unless you are refering to crafted gear at which you are still wrong, some hi end mats for yur "pre-raid" gear comes from vet dungeons by breaking down said dungeon gear and looting mobs that have raw mats... this is the point where you say you can get mats from the AH right? my point still stands.
 
to drive my point home a lil further heres a nice tidy list for you of pre raid. Unless the loot tables have changed dungeon gear does equate to pre raid gear 
 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15d8NRNPyO6MCV8KutJ0MwlSAdIP0tr91AC1pJEf0fvM/edit#gid=1558880993
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No. All you need is a role check in the loot system. If it's got more AP, then only dps can roll Need on it. If it's got more SP, then only the tank/healer can roll Need on it.
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Most of the complaints on this kind of topic are not about game loot mechanics, but rather about other people lack of empathy.
Player empathy cannot be patched in, and tbh, I don't think it's the game mechanics job to protect us from it. 	
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Most of the complaints on this kind of topic are not about game loot mechanics, but rather about other people lack of empathy.
Player empathy cannot be patched in, and tbh, I don't think it's the game mechanics job to protect us from it. 
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			You should post docs that are up to date.. Dungeons are not the only method of preraid gear.. this is a fallacy. Wildstar doesn't follow the traditional mmo when it comes to itemization. Its spread out over to more than just dungeons. Contracts and world bosses for the most part with the exceptions of a few pieces will be better than dungeon gear. Its possible to be well more than raid ready and never stepping foot into a vet dungeon in this game. Dungeons arent alos the only method to acquire higher end mats unless their straight up raid mats..purps drop all over at lvl 50.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Rebel Angel	
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Are they going to be forced to run that spec in sub-par gear while colelcting gear for it?
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How is that any different than gearing up your first spec?
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If you're gearing yourself up properly, you never have to be "sub-par", because the previous content will give you gear good enough for the next step up.
 
Talk things over with your group, make use of the ability to trade drops, and/or run with friends if it really becomes such a huge issue.	
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