106973-how-to-make-me-not-want-to-play-wildstar

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I'm very quickly finding that I don't enjoy playing Wildstar and it's not because the combat, dungeons, adventures and PvP aren't fun. My issue is that I can't play because I want to. At this point I'm ready to do vet dungeons with my guild and my guild is ready to do vet dungeons. We can't complete them yet, we're still working on actually managing to get through them, learning how to do the bosses, how to build our loadouts and what the best way it is for us to handle it ourselves. And I find this so fun. I find it more fun grinding my face on the same boss for an hour or more than I do any of the daily stuff. But I don't get anything for it, in fact I get punished for it. If I don't reach my Elder gems cap that week then that's another week on top of the already 43 weeks or so it takes to actually get all of the AMP points and Ability points alone. Intentionally or not rather than 'dragging out the content so there's still a goal and something to do' you've just gated off the lvl 50 rewards behind 43 weeks of intensive hard labour that I just don't want to do. And I'm not even going to cover here the idea of spending 2 months of doing one daily to craft some items.
 
At level 50 you are only punished for not playing the game. When offline you gain rested XP, that's instantly wiped out by the first daily quest you do. And dailies are repetitive and boring, it's more fun doing challenges or the Blighthaven quests than it is doing the dailies. When it comes to the Elder Points weekly cap, rather than slowing progression, which is what I'm sure you think you're doing, instead you're just turning everything from being a elder points cost into being a time cost. An Abilitiy or AMP Point isn't 320/400 Elder Gems it's 3 Weeks or grinding dailies. It's unequally rewarding to play the game and do what I find fun than it is to do something repetitive and monotonous so I end up coming on to do dailies and then log off because I'm just so bored of playing.	
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I hear there's this game that hands out raid gear and content like candy... it's called like Globe of WarArt or some BS like that.anywhoo... WoW created unintended problems by making it too "quick and easy"... just saying. Carbine is trying to avoid that stuff....
 	
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I hear there's this game that hands out raid gear and content like candy... it's called like Globe of WarArt or some BS like that.
 
 
anywhoo... WoW created unintended problems by making it too "quick and easy"... just saying. Carbine is trying to avoid that stuff....
 
 
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And another post equating "tedious" with "challenging"...  :rolleyes:
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It seems to me that your real problem is the mentality that you must have as many amp and ability points as possible as fast as possible.
 
Why?
 
If you can complete the content you enjoy, why do you need more amp or ability points NOW NOW NOW?
 
And if you don't need to max those as fast as possible, then it doesn't matter so much if you cap elder gems or not.  Do what you want to do, get as many elder gems as you get, spend them however you want, and (most importantly) don't sweat the elder gems you don't have.
 
Problem solved?
 
P.S. If challenging content rewards *less* elder points than non-challenging content *even when you succeed at it*, that seems like something they probably ought to look at.  But in general I think you don't *have* to look at everything from the perspective of what gives the most EP per hour, and probably would have more fun if you didn't.  Pretty much every game is less fun if you min-max it.	
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It seems to me that your real problem is the mentality that you must have as many amp and ability points as possible as fast as possible.
 
Why?
 
If you can complete the content you enjoy, why do you need more amp or ability points NOW NOW NOW?
 
And if you don't need to max those as fast as possible, then it doesn't matter so much if you cap elder gems or not.  Do what you want to do, get as many elder gems as you get, spend them however you want, and (most importantly) don't sweat the elder gems you don't have.
 
Problem solved?
 
P.S. If challenging content rewards *less* elder points than non-challenging content *even when you succeed at it*, that seems like something they probably ought to look at.  But in general I think you don't *have* to look at everything from the perspective of what gives the most EP per hour, and probably would have more fun if you didn't.  Pretty much every game is less fun if you min-max it.
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Couple reasons, actually.
 
1. The extra points allow a player to become stronger in their skills/amps... as time goes on, for any serious hardcore raiders, etc... the "natural selection" of what players people want (as happens in every single MMO) will start to boil down to not only the best gear, but who does the best damage, best heals, etc... the drop-rate of those extra skills points (or necessity to grind EGs for them) may as well be a lottery that works to funnel out a large percentage over time, even if it wasn't the intended result/nature.
 
2. For the die-hard completionist (which I usually am in other games -- WS is one of the few games where I finally just said, "too much... completionism or  not, I'd rather feel slightly nutty over not having everything complete than go through all *THAT*), they see a skill-tree, amp-listing, etc with tons of locked slots, locked skills, unreached tiers, etc... they want to fill out the entire thing.  I know I was that way in Wildstar for awhile... would go to rep-vendors and buy up any extra class-specific amps they had... even if they were ones I thought I'd never use -- (Same way I felt a need to uncover every bit of each map by the time I was half-way through the given area).  The extra points work in the same fashion... there's been numerous times I've thought to myself, "man, I'd love to fill out my skills of choice to make them all uber".  For those that are wicked/die-hard game-completionists, it can been a borderline obsession and compulsion... I mean, I don't even have OCD on anything else, but when it comes to games, I typically feel I want to complete EVERYTHING.  (The Secret World was a nightmare in that fashion... finished the storyline, looked at skill wheel, and thought, "OMG, it's going to take FOREVER to unlock everything!!!".)1
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I don't think the problem is equating tedious with challenging so much as it is equating challenging ALONE with a sense of accomplishment. 
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Did you read the OP? It's all about zero-challenge grind.
Then Mr.Snark comes in and pulls the usual "you're an entitled WoW-baby" card.
I don't disagree with your post, but it has no relevance here.
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Did you read the OP? It's all about zero-challenge grind.
Then Mr.Snark comes in and pulls the usual "you're an entitled WoW-baby" card.
I don't disagree with your post, but it has no relevance here.
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Mentions of Candy Crush and such aside (especially considering amount-of-time is kind of not the point, as the sense of achievement is actually zero... agreed, it should take time, however, no sense of actual reward in that time kind of makes it like a chore or worse -- emphasis should have been more on grind-dance than time-gated; the time-gating just intensifies the frivolousness of the grind)...
 
Game Completionism is a real thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TNmTvX66Idw (The extra added ironic/hilarious facetiousness such as the "Captain Obvious" bit, are just bonuses.)
 
Ironically, Wildstar seems to do most everything it can to bottle-neck the top-levels of the "pyramid" (shown in video).  Also worth paying attention to what they point out about the feeling of reward that keeps gamers playing and coming back for more.  (Yay, dopamine surges -- and no, natural/native dopamine is not a narcotic-drug for those that might assume so.)  Sites like Raptr and Xfire are perfect for game-completionists :D.
 
Also, as has been pointed out, the grind has zero-challenge (which in itself is hilarious, since WS is supposed to be "hardcore")... which as pointed out above, kind of kills the "dopamine rush reward" and "sense of accomplishment" (at least for completionists) of doing it to be bluntly honest.	
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			It really is a zero challenge grind. I can't even do vet adventures anymore. I've seen 2 epics in about 100 runs and everytime I get malgrave trail, I want to punch a baby.	
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This is an MMO not candy crush. Completion takes time; as it rightfully should.
It SHOULD take many months of effort to complete trees / item collections / gearing / etc. 
 
 
 
I don't think the problem is equating tedious with challenging so much as it is equating challenging ALONE with a sense of accomplishment. You need both challenge and concerted effort for a strong feeling of accomplishment. The perfect balance indeed is hard to capture; but you will feel much more accomplishment from a month of moderately challenging content than from 5 minutes of  ultra-challenging content.
 
Don't believe me? Play 5 minutes of any Touhou game on hard mode; compare it to a 50 minute adventure in W*. Let me know your results :)
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Said it once.
 
I will say it again, because it totally applies here.
 
 
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No, there is community here.
 
The problem is these "one post" first time visitors think they are making a point, or type a manifesto-page full of demands.
 
Move on strangers, you do not represent the community (check how many times OP contributed to these forums).
Outside this post, nothing.
 
I don't care if doesn't like the game...
Move on...
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I got waaaay more feeling of accomplishment from beating Mordecai than I did from doing the entire rest of Skullcano. So no, you're wrong.
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I feel like these are the same people that seem to forget that AQ40 and original Naxx ever existed. Where was my entitlement back then, lol. 
 
Most of the "end game content", with the exception of raids, can be completed in about a day or so, leaving meaningless grinding to fill the next rest of the length of your subscription. 
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Housing is never 'complete'; crafting lasts quite a while, adventures are dynamic and you can run them differently, new content comes in each month; you can run challenges indefinitely; PvP also is dynamic; as are warplots.
 
If the current endgame isn't your thing that's cool; but pretending all the content besides raids can be completed in a day is just silly. 
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Said it once.
 
I will say it again, because it totally applies here.
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 You're right, I don't post on the forums. I spend my time playing games more than talking about them. I browse the reddit, because it's more concise about what's going on and has everything I might need to know or find interesting in one place. Otherwise I use google if I'm actually looking for something Wildstar related. I came here because I've been ranting at my guildies whenever the discussion came up and finally decided that I had a clear enough issue and had solidified my argument to the point that I felt that I -could- post it on the forums without it being depicted as being a whiny spoilt kid.
 
Doesn't mean I care any less or that I'm any less invested.
 
Some do seem to have confused my main point.
 
I'm not asking for more rewards, but I wouldn't mind being allowed to have a bot grind my Elder gems for the week, but it's a lot more fun doing, well ANYTHING ELSE. And not doing it is to effectively waste a week of play time because otherwise I'll have to grind an extra week. I don't expect to just have things thrown at me, completing dailies by just playing the game would be a lot nicer. At this point I'm not gaining anything by doing the Dailies, they're just the easiest and quickest way of reaching the weekly cap. There's no reward, but I want to get better to be able to complete the dungeons and get into raiding,
 
Zombie Technix hit the nail on the head when it comes to the point I was really getting at. The issue is that it's supposed to be hard, and Vet Dungeons are hard, that's for sure and I love attacking them like a puzzle, dying over and over if need be to work out what we're missing, what needs to be done, changed etc. On the other hand the things that really get you Elder Gems, Dailies aren't hard at all, just time consuming and tedious. I'd rather grind Scorchwing, that's actually a really fun fight and challenging with a 10-15 man PUG.
 
I spend 80% of my time playing the game doing easy trivial and utterly redundant content because that's what Carbine has weighted to give the most certain long-term rewards. I -know- that after 3 weeks of getting my Elder Gem cap that I'll definitely have at least an ability point or an AMP point, spending no effort in the process. Meanwhile suffering through Malgrave Trail, while sometimes tediously and hilariously easy when you find that one tank-healer combination that just lead things to the easiest and fastest completion you've ever done, you're still not guaranteed that after running that for 3 weeks that anything that you need will have dropped.
 
Actually for my case I already have all the best gear from adventures save for 3 purple drops, 2 from Malgrave and one from Crimelords. But face-grinding adventures isn't actually something I mind, it's the feeling that my time would be better spent doing something else. I shouldn't be feeling that I should be doing something that the game wants me to do because it's optimal. Getting the drip-fed weekly elder gems is something that I should be able to get by just playing the game as I do, it's not something I should work at.
 
At the end of the day it's like every time I log on I'm clocking in to go do some work before I can play the game I just decided I want to play.
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Even with the right gears raids are still not going to be easy. Need to dodge, have team work and have the best weapon spec having good gears still means you will get wipe out in raids if you are not skill enough in these departments. 
 
They are more of a incentive to play dungeons than anything else other than raid attune.	
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Even with the right gears raids are still not going to be easy. Need to dodge, have team work and have the best weapon spec having good gears still means you will get wipe out in raids if you are not skill enough in these departments.
 
They are more of a incentive to play dungeons than anything else other than raid attune.
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Following the logic by some people:
The actual challange in W* is to bring up enough time and motivation to do the grind. There is no high difficulty in dungeons/vets from my pov. Raids are ok in difficulty. Leftover grind, everything no exception.
 
What do I expect? In 2014, I expect less grind and more "interesting things" which have been critized all day long. I know its difficult but thats why there are people who have got a degree in this field "how to entertain and not annoy people".	
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			Look at it this way if they still fail even with the right gears then they need to L2P, otherwise they will just use lack of good gears and rune slot as an excuse not to improve.	
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Remove current daily quest zones and content.   Replace with: Daily ship missions. 
Daily adventures.Daily dungeons. Daily challenges.
 Then RANDOMIZE each step and add multiples.   At least this would break up the monotony. Any given day could include 2-3 ship missions, 1 adventure, 1 dungeon, and up to 10 challenges or something.  	
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I know right?  And just how their post was so... *yeah* ...people have been accusing anybody who even says the slightest criticism on WS as being a paid "troll" from other competing companies... starting to think the ones that blatantly cheer-lead the things that are traditionally BAD about mmorpgs, have been BAD for the past 10+ years, and are called out BAD 99% of the time in other games... are paid posters by Carbine or perhaps NCSoft...
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I think you've got it backward. The "Go back to WoW you pu$$y!" jerks aren't working for Carbine....they're working for Blizzard!
 
See, they know that every time some supposed "hardcore" arshloch comes on the boards and insults the other players and tells them Wildstar Is Not For Weaklings and Filthies and they should get out,  the odds increase that that person will, in fact, do exactly that -- head back to WoW or to GW2 or to FFXIV. 
 
And that's exactly what they want.  
 
See, I just can't believe that anyone who actually likes this game would be so moronic as to come on the forums and tell people to "Go Back to WoW."  Therefore, they must have an ulterior motive.  
 
I mean, seriously, they can't be that dumb. 
 
Right? 
 
....Right...?
 
...Guys?
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Right? 
 
....Right...?
 
...Guys?
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I think you've got it backward. The "Go back to WoW you pu$$y!" jerks aren't working for Carbine....they're working for Blizzard!
 
See, they know that every time some supposed "hardcore" arshloch comes on the boards and insults the other players and tells them Wildstar Is Not For Weaklings and Filthies and they should get out,  the odds increase that that person will, in fact, do exactly that -- head back to WoW or to GW2 or to FFXIV. 
 
And that's exactly what they want.  
 
See, I just can't believe that anyone who actually likes this game would be so moronic as to come on the forums and tell people to "Go Back to WoW."  Therefore, they must have an ulterior motive.  
 
I mean, seriously, they can't be that dumb. 
 
Right? 
 
....Right...?
 
...Guys?
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Remove current daily quest zones and content.   Replace with: 
 
Daily ship missions. 
Daily adventures.
Daily dungeons. 
Daily challenges.
 
 
Then RANDOMIZE each step and add multiples.   
 
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Yup. And all of this has been done before.
It's hard to understand Carbine would opt for pretty much the worst possible implementation of daily content.
 
I mean seriously: Literally what could be worse/less involving than identical kill/click missions every day? I'm drawing a blank here.
All I can think of is "grind mobs without quests telling you to do so". That's all I got.
So as far as I'm concerned, the current system is the 2nd worst physically possible grind. Ponder that for a second. It's quite amazing really.  :unsure:
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			I will do absolutely literally zero dailies ever unless they are nothing like the leveling up quests, i.e. dungeons	
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I agree with a lot said here, but I will say I'm not sure I agree on some's definition of endgame. Endgame to me is what I plan on doing when I'm not longer trying to progress or level. To me, it's RPing and housing. Unfortunately, they marketed hard to the raider and I'm not sure raiders will likely endless combat/kill quests as their endgame content. I've seen some other complaints in regards to attunement, timed runs, etc. There's a reason a lot of MMO's moved away from the "grind." 
 
Edit.
 
P.S. Also PvPing, but we all know how busted that's been lately. Looking at you wintraders. 	
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I will do absolutely literally zero dailies ever unless they are nothing like the leveling up quests, i.e. dungeons
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Remove current daily quest zones and content.   Replace with: 
 
Daily ship missions. 
Daily adventures.
Daily dungeons. 
Daily challenges.
 
 
Then RANDOMIZE each step and add multiples.   At least this would break up the monotony. 
 
Any given day could include 2-3 ship missions, 1 adventure, 1 dungeon, and up to 10 challenges or something. 
 
 
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 They're worse.
There's one zone (Crimson Badlands) which is almost entirely Kill X number of enemy Y with the occasional interact with A number of object B and the other (Northern Wastes) where it's the other way around with a couple of holdout style missions. On a side note the CB kill quests generally involve killing over 50 of said enemies at least or taking on enemies that take so long. Why there aren't people organising grouping up and smashing through them I have no idea
 That is an amazing idea. I would actually propose that there be a choice though. Like the housing XP bonus board people could choose maybe 2 or 3 of adventures, challenges, ship missions and quests and then the area that it's set in is randomised. People could go through a portal and be temporarily leveled down to the area (like mentoring) or such. I don't know if it's feasible, but making the whole thing more like a server wide adventure would be really fun, especially for people leveling up. One day suddenly there's loads of high levels in your area doing random quests, helping you out for your own, giving you advice, after all they're in the area.
 
I wouldn't be against making the process more drawn out so long as it's fun, hell make there be more of them and a larger variety of them, and make them be weekly instead.
 
The issue is monotony, things being the same, being easy, trivial and non-rewarding. Hell, they could do so much with the whole imbuement process, could even have a daily raid quest to kill all the world bosses. Something like that would be really fun to get behind.
 
I want to make it clear, I don't hate Wildstar and I don't want to dislike it or leave, but it tires me. Chatting with you guys and the ideas and comradary and understanding that goes around makes me feel more energetic and excited about the game, but I'm really hoping that after all the 'Devs are listening' talk that they are actually willing to do something because this is too much of an integral part of how the game is end game for it to stay this way.
 
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I understand what the OP is on about. I don't think it's purely the fault of Wildstar, more so that Wildstar failed to address the many problems inherited from WoW and almost every MMO since.  Basically, the endgame is just a lesson in repetition to get better gear for more repetition. However, that repetition is gated via realtime in the same way that Farmville games are gated by realtime.
 
I lost interest in the PvE side of Wildstar before lvl 20 as I found myself not caring for the stunning world that has been created for Wildstar, but only for gold, gear and XP.  Normally I take ages to level up as I like to enjoy the scenery, but I've played too many MMO's that are fundamentally the same as Wildstar.
 
Which is why I've tended towards PvP in the last few years.  However, Wildstar is no better than other MMO's when it comes to PvP.  It's made me realise that I'm spending my subscription on Walatiki Temple (which I despise, but it's the only one that ever pops - queuing for the other two can take over an hour for a map to pop), whilst spending real £££ on gold to level up my trade skills to make decent PvP gear.
 
It's a terrible shame.  So much effort has gone into Wildstar's PvE levelling, but there's just no hook to make it interesting.	
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I understand what the OP is on about. I don't think it's purely the fault of Wildstar, more so that Wildstar failed to address the many problems inherited from WoW and almost every MMO since.  Basically, the endgame is just a lesson in repetition to get better gear for more repetition. However, that repetition is gated via realtime in the same way that Farmville games are gated by realtime.
 
I lost interest in the PvE side of Wildstar before lvl 20 as I found myself not caring for the stunning world that has been created for Wildstar, but only for gold, gear and XP.  Normally I take ages to level up as I like to enjoy the scenery, but I've played too many MMO's that are fundamentally the same as Wildstar.
 
Which is why I've tended towards PvP in the last few years.  However, Wildstar is no better than other MMO's when it comes to PvP.  It's made me realise that I'm spending my subscription on Walatiki Temple (which I despise, but it's the only one that ever pops - queuing for the other two can take over an hour for a map to pop), whilst spending real £££ on gold to level up my trade skills to make decent PvP gear.
 
It's a terrible shame.  So much effort has gone into Wildstar's PvE levelling, but there's just no hook to make it interesting.
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Timetravel has strongly suggested that there will be daily dungeons coming soon.
 
I don't know why people are shocked at all the daily content. I'm sure they'd love to give us enough dungeons and adventures to keep us busy, but dungeons and adventures are expensive to do. I'm sure it's 1,000 times quicker to develop dailies for us to do than dungeons, but at least they are working on new ones.
 
OP, you don't need ability/amp poitns to complete dungeons. Keep working em.
 
Also, you can grind adventures instead of dailies if you'd like. They get old too, but a quick run through WotW isn't bad for getting toward EP cap.	
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			This thread, in a nutshell, is why the whole "max level is where the game starts" end-gaming mentality sucks. I fell into that trap in WoW. I refuse to do it in this game. There's just too much to do and see on the way to 50 to rush it.	
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			I'd like dailies handled like Guild Wars 2's daily challenges: with randomized tasks for each day that tell you to go to various areas, not only on the "designated daily areas". That would be better than visiting the same two over and over again doing the same things you did the day before. 	
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			Don't mind doing the daily quests as long as the loot is good.	
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And another post equating "tedious" with "challenging"...  :rolleyes:
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			And people claiming WoW is easy never did or has done any of the top tier hard mode content, they went and did some pug normal and thought....oh crap man, this is soooo easy! It's that or what I simply believe: they have never played it at all and like to make *cupcake* up.	
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And people claiming WoW is easy never did or has done any of the top tier hard mode content, they went and did some pug normal and thought....oh crap man, this is soooo easy! It's that or what I simply believe: they have never played it at all and like to make shit up. Under impression the latter is the true reason why they lie.
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And people claiming WoW is easy never did or has done any of the top tier hard mode content, they went and did some pug normal and thought....oh crap man, this is soooo easy! It's that or what I simply believe: they have never played it at all and like to make *cupcake* up.
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			Only a small percentage of players actually saw that content or even defeated those raids when it was relevant. Grats on being one of the 5%!	
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Only a small percentage of players actually saw that content or even defeated those raids when it was relevant. Grats on being one of the 5%!
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There's areas between "tedious" and "giving stuff away". WoW certainly falls on the latter extreme. And it has NEVER fallen in the "challenging" category no matter what the "old timers" want to tell you.
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I was agreeing with you. People think "vanilla WoW" wasn't hard, but they seem to forget those 4.
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			another good way make amp/ability skill upgrades pretty much not exist....oh wait that is already ingame	
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			WotLK was the most accessible expansion they ever made and the game peaked at what...14+ mill subs? Then they went back to HC mentality in cata and lost 6+ mill. All these new MMO devs never ever learn and that's :(.	
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WotLK was the most accessible expansion they ever made and the game peaked at what...14+ mill subs? Then they went back to HC mentality in cata and lost 6+ mill. All these new MMO devs never ever learn and that's :(.
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12 million; and While I agree that CATA started to go back to more HC elements and the player base dropped; I disagree that it was a bad thing. MMO's aren't for everyone, and that's OK.
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Lol, not a bad thing losing that much revenue: if this was any other business sector, people would have been fired enmass over that.
 
And I disagree, MMOs can be for everyone and cater to more than just you HC uber dudes; wotlk alone proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt.	
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Disagree. The more the merrier. If you want a small, exclusive game then form a pen and paper group like the actual #hardcore people used to do.
 
You died? Too bad, now your buddies have to carry your corpse to a temple and pay an exorbitant fee to resurrect you. You lost your sword? Yeah it's in the elemental plane of fire. Good luck.
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Wow man, you really got a big chip on your shoulder about blizz don't you?
 
That and a seething hate for 'filthy casuals'....
 
Enough said really, no point continuing to even bother talking to someone filled with so much bias.	
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Challenging games needn't be exclusive... But good to know that is mindest of folks around here.
 
 
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Wow man, you really got a big chip on your shoulder about blizz don't you?
 
That and a seething hate for 'filthy casuals'....
 
Enough said really, no point continuing to even bother talking to someone filled with so much bias.
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WotLK was the most accessible expansion they ever made and the game peaked at what...14+ mill subs? Then they went back to HC mentality in cata and lost 6+ mill. All these new MMO devs never ever learn and that's :(.
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This is called a non-sequitur. I've played plenty of D&D in my day, and it is only as exclusive as you make it. There are plenty of huge D&D groups that make a point of inclusion, as well as plenty of smaller groups of friends that will play together. 
 
The difficulty of an MMO vs a P&P RPG is fairly independent. FFXI had raids that were virtually unbeatable; and some that simply were never beaten pre-level cap increase with out exploits; while many a D&D run is comically simple. Depends on the developer / GM in both cases.
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I hear there's this game that hands out raid gear and content like candy... it's called like Globe of WarArt or some BS like that.
 
 
anywhoo... WoW created unintended problems by making it too "quick and easy"... just saying. Carbine is trying to avoid that stuff....
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That is what hardcore always meant.
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You can cap weekly EP pretty easy as long as you use that pve buff (prefereably 10%) and go grind mobs for a bit; takes me roughly 2 zones of dailies (1-1.5 hours) and around 3 hours grinding mobs to cap. Now is that fun? No, not at all....far from it actually. :(
 
But you gotta do it if you want amp points. Ugh....
 
#HC	
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You can cap weekly EP pretty easy as long as you use that pve buff (prefereably 10%) and go grind mobs for a bit; takes me roughly 2 zones of dailies (1-1.5 hours) and around 3 hours grinding mobs to cap. Now is that fun? No, not at all....far from it actually. :(
 
But you gotta do it if you want amp points. Ugh....
 
#HC
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			Well each their own, I just log in on Tuesday morning...grind my EP and then go back to playing another game. I expect I will be doing this for around 3+ months before they do some thing about the *cupcake* state that they have done to PvP last two patches. I begin to wonder why I even bother now. Hell SWToR kept me playing longer than this and that's sayin sumthing. :(	
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			I think it all comes down to a company mentality or direction to use forced time gates to keep players involved (paying monthly fees). They could have went an entirely different direction. Tried to make the game as fun as possible and rewarding for accomplishments so people stayed involved and continued to play because they wanted to, but they didn't. Basically, this game is extremely time gate heavy.   	
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			Will Carbine change this though? I could see part of the mindset that causes people to defend what are clearly flaws of the game is the idea that it won't ever change and therefore, if it is as bad as it sounds, it will cause players to slowly (or rapidly) bleed out because of these flaws. Therefore, better to pretend nothing is wrong and/or try to justify it.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Will Carbine change this though? I could see part of the mindset that causes people to defend what are clearly flaws of the game is the idea that it won't ever change and therefore, if it is as bad as it sounds, it will cause players to slowly (or rapidly) bleed out because of these flaws. Therefore, better to pretend nothing is wrong and/or try to justify it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Maybe they are trying to avoid polish, functional mechanics, and appealing game design, too. No one wants things to be easy. They want to work to down hard bosses and improve to complete previously unmanageable challenges. That is what hardcore always meant. Carbine gates behind grind which is not fun and doesn't encourage improvement, but rather repetition.
 
Speaking of things Wildstar seems to be trying to avoid that wow does...retaining subscribers. I'm not saying people should go play WoW, in fact, the idea is repulsive, but if your gonna do hardcore, do hardcore and not hardBORE.
 
I havn't capped EG in a month, and I play 5 hours a day. I'm not going to grind the same dailies instead of doing arenas, rbgs, or interesting pve with my friends. So, I guess I could care less about what Carbine wants to force me to do at the cost of prolonged ability point gating. YOLO.
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{| class="blockquote"
WoW hasn't exactly done a good job of retaining subscribers over the last ~4 years, though. :v
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{| class="blockquote"
7 million left paying after 10 years, you're right they have failed miserably at giving players enough of what they want to keep them coming back for more...
 
Peak was at 12mil, currently like 7 mil left. That's more than 50% retention rate over a matter of years.
 
Wildstar's retention rate is nowhere near as good as 50% in 2 months.
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My biggest complaint is time-gating. Even when I was maxxed in WoW WoTLK with raid and pvp gear. Not maxed in pvp as the best, just the tier below it in arenas, I just was not skilled enough to get to the top. I was okay with all of it, because I had fun playing the game when I did.
 
WS using a bunch of BS time gates, making me do 400 EG for 1 Ability Point? Really?! To get max AP, it will take months, if I only spend EG on -just- that. Or Data chips for crafting, some say you can get 3 or 1, I've got two expert research crafters at 50 and still only ever get 1.
 
When has praying to RNGeezus made a game fun? It's frustrating as hell, especially since no matter how much skill or dedication I have, I am limited by caps and RNG bullshit. 	
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{| class="blockquote"
My biggest complaint is time-gating. Even when I was maxxed in WoW WoTLK with raid and pvp gear. Not maxed in pvp as the best, just the tier below it in arenas, I just was not skilled enough to get to the top. I was okay with all of it, because I had fun playing the game when I did.
 
WS using a bunch of BS time gates, making me do 400 EG for 1 Ability Point? Really?! To get max AP, it will take months, if I only spend EG on -just- that. Or Data chips for crafting, some say you can get 3 or 1, I've got two expert research crafters at 50 and still only ever get 1.
 
When has praying to RNGeezus made a game fun? It's frustrating as hell, especially since no matter how much skill or dedication I have, I am limited by caps and RNG !@#!. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Indeed, have heard varying numbers on how long it'll take... but max AP is somewhere in and about at least a year, perhaps a bit more.  Maybe even 13-14 months. :(
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			I mostly just do vet adventures and get renown to buy stuff from the renown vendor, otherwise nothing to do. Hopefully they will fixed end game content in the future because adventure seems to be the one saving PvE end game content.	
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{| class="blockquote"
This thread, in a nutshell, is why the whole "max level is where the game starts" end-gaming mentality sucks. I fell into that trap in WoW. I refuse to do it in this game. There's just too much to do and see on the way to 50 to rush it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Unfortunately, Wildstar actively punishes people for enjoying the ride to 50. At level 50 you are hard-capped to only be able to accomplish so much every week, meaning that if you get to level 50 later than others, they will always be stronger, better equipped, and more accomplished than you. The longer you wait to hit max level, the further behind you will fall.
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{| class="blockquote"
There's areas between "tedious" and "giving stuff away". WoW certainly falls on the latter extreme. And it has NEVER fallen in the "challenging" category no matter what the "old timers" want to tell you.
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Yea...Naxx 40 made more guilds than I can recall implode into sticky, messy bits coated with large amounts of toxic drama. It got really ugly, let me tell you.
 
But those people saying it was 'easy' were not actually there or perhaps didn't even play at all (which is my guess).	
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{| class="blockquote"
Looks like someone never stepped foot in AQ40/Naxx40 when they were the 'current' content.  There was a reason the % of people that cleared Naxx40 was something absurd like .005%
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			I doubt anybody here has the right to say Naxx was easy, considering very few guilds had it on farm mode. I feel no shame in admitting we only got about half way through before a lot of people took breaks, until AQ stuff came out. We did better in AQ, but that early content was extremely difficult. Nothing in wildstar has challenged me like that.The only other game I can think of that was just incredibly difficult and "hardcore", were the red servers on EQ. You had to have some thick skin for that stuff. Still loved it.But anyway, I like Zombietech's explanation on hardcore/casual. I think very few people want easy content.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I doubt anybody here has the right to say Naxx was easy, considering very few guilds had it on farm mode. I feel no shame in admitting we only got about half way through before a lot of people took breaks, until AQ stuff came out. We did better in AQ, but that early content was extremely difficult. Nothing in wildstar has challenged me like that.
 
The only other game I can think of that was just incredibly difficult and "hardcore", were the red servers on EQ. You had to have some thick skin for that stuff. Still loved it.
 
But anyway, I like Zombietech's explanation on hardcore/casual. I think very few people want easy content.
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{| class="blockquote"
I doubt anybody here has the right to say Naxx was easy, considering very few guilds had it on farm mode. I feel no shame in admitting we only got about half way through before a lot of people took breaks, until AQ stuff came out. We did better in AQ, but that early content was extremely difficult. Nothing in wildstar has challenged me like that.The only other game I can think of that was just incredibly difficult and "hardcore", were the red servers on EQ. You had to have some thick skin for that stuff. Still loved it.But anyway, I like Zombietech's explanation on hardcore/casual. I think very few people want easy content.
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{| class="blockquote"
What's your point? No one defeated AV before they raised the level cap in FFXI with out exploits. Easy is a relative term; and compared to it's competitors (EQ and FFXI) WoW was easy as pie. 
 
AQ and Naxx were childs play compared to TFC (EQ), and OG Kirin & AV (XI).
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{| class="blockquote"
And people claiming WoW is easy never did or has done any of the top tier hard mode content, they went and did some pug normal and thought....oh crap man, this is soooo easy! It's that or what I simply believe: they have never played it at all and like to make *cupcake* up.
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{| class="blockquote"
You keep bringing up Absolute Virtue...
 
When a mob is literally unkillable without exploits, which are then removed from the game, it's not hard. It's asinine. It means the people developing the game don't even understand the limits of their player system.
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{| class="blockquote"
AQ was released well before Naxx...Most people gave up on Naxx because TBC was just around the corner and then there was like three fights in the place that were flat out guild-breakers.  4 Horsemen destroyed more guilds than any other encounter I can recall in the past like 10 years of MMO's.
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			I agree with the OP . For the ones that blasting it and saying hey go play WOW for the free stuff . You are so clueless . The different in WOW and Wildstar is Blizzard likes money and know what normal modes are and that the reason WOW will be around next year and Wildstar will be on people Top 10 Lists for best game to BUST !!! . No matter what they do , they dug themselves a deep hole and it will almost be impossible for them to survive . Because it hard to get back people after they left . Wildstar has put themselves into a very bad position , just because they thought that the 2% HARDCORE"S GROUP RULES !!!!!!! Lmao how fail can you be - Grade school math class will teach you 2% is just 2% nothing more.	
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			The reason WoW will be on top next year is the same reason McDonald's is the most popular fast food place: DAMN good marketing. It's not an indication of quality, it's an indication of hype.	
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			I want to clarify on something, something that I've read in a lot of people's post... I don't think wildstar is "dying" I just think with its current design, it's going to be that niche offbeat mmo that a few people play, and hopefully keep it afloat. The point of these threads for a lot of people is the request for content that doesn't require a premade. It's that simple. If you can not pug the content, they will leave the game. And you can not progress as a solo player in this game.Some people have become solo players without the intent of doing so. Guilds disband, people leave, friends didn't like the game as much, etc, etc. There has to be a level of content that the solo/pug playerbase can do. It's not about hard or easy content, the content is fine as it stands. It's the design that is faulty, and sorry carbine, but it is a poor design. Specially considering a lot of people who got attuned did so while there were 100 percent drop chance of epic in adventures, meaning a person could do maybe 10 runs for their epic compared to 100 runs now and hope that an epic drops, and it is the one that you want.There has to be a middle ground for Wildstar. A middle road that carbine and the playerbase can both be happy with, because right now, A LOT of people are not happy. Some hardcore pvpers (like myself) are not happy. Some hardcore raiders are not happy. But none of these people OWE carbine anything, nothing at all. People will stick around as long as their patience dictates and then return to their old games or whatever. A lot of these people want this game to succeed. So the hostility on the forums is just silly. You're battling with people who want the game to succeed. And you possessively hold onto every bit of content for the hardcore demographic, when you won't even be running most of the content when you're raiding full time, because you're raiders.Give it a rest and listen to what the playerbase is saying or lose them. It's that simple. Come to a compromise. That's how an mmo evolves.Carbine, you spend many years developing this mmo. There are not enough hardcore players, players who are willing to sink several hours a day into a time gate, just to experience your raiding content, which offers almost nothing really new. It doesn't. Lets be honest with ourselves, and it's not carbines fault. MMO's are getting a bit stale, everything has been done. WoW borrows from all games to create what it is, because it wants all types of players playing their game that they worked hard on. And you can call WoW a casual pile of crap, but it's making money and a lot of people enjoy it. I'm personally burnt out on wow, but I can recognize its success and what it's doing correctly.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm very quickly finding that I don't enjoy playing Wildstar and it's not because the combat, dungeons, adventures and PvP aren't fun. My issue is that I can't play because I want to. At this point I'm ready to do vet dungeons with my guild and my guild is ready to do vet dungeons. We can't complete them yet, we're still working on actually managing to get through them, learning how to do the bosses, how to build our loadouts and what the best way it is for us to handle it ourselves. And I find this so fun. I find it more fun grinding my face on the same boss for an hour or more than I do any of the daily stuff. But I don't get anything for it, in fact I get punished for it. If I don't reach my Elder gems cap that week then that's another week on top of the already 43 weeks or so it takes to actually get all of the AMP points and Ability points alone. Intentionally or not rather than 'dragging out the content so there's still a goal and something to do' you've just gated off the lvl 50 rewards behind 43 weeks of intensive hard labour that I just don't want to do. And I'm not even going to cover here the idea of spending 2 months of doing one daily to craft some items.
 
At level 50 you are only punished for not playing the game. When offline you gain rested XP, that's instantly wiped out by the first daily quest you do. And dailies are repetitive and boring, it's more fun doing challenges or the Blighthaven quests than it is doing the dailies. When it comes to the Elder Points weekly cap, rather than slowing progression, which is what I'm sure you think you're doing, instead you're just turning everything from being a elder points cost into being a time cost. An Abilitiy or AMP Point isn't 320/400 Elder Gems it's 3 Weeks or grinding dailies. It's unequally rewarding to play the game and do what I find fun than it is to do something repetitive and monotonous so I end up coming on to do dailies and then log off because I'm just so bored of playing.
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{| class="blockquote"
Then don't play? If you don't like what is offered no one can really make it fun for you.
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The issue pointed out about amp/ability points only gets worse as you reroll.
 
I will have a 50 medic soon but that means if I want to play him instead of my esper, I'm going to be more than a month behind in terms of elder gems, and that means less amp points.
 
43 weeks for the equivalent of 10 level ups worth of power is absurd. If you're gonna make it take that long, this shit should be account bound unlocks not character specific.
 
I don't even look forward to getting a toon attuned a second time. I'm in Orias, pretty much a dwindling low pop server, and the world bosses are going to be miserable. Not to mention by now that we're in GA not many in my guild are even interested in running alts through SSM silver.	
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{| class="blockquote"
The issue pointed out about amp/ability points only gets worse as you reroll.
 
I will have a 50 medic soon but that means if I want to play him instead of my esper, I'm going to be more than a month behind in terms of elder gems, and that means less amp points.
 
43 weeks for the equivalent of 10 level ups worth of power is absurd. If you're gonna make it take that long, this shit should be account bound unlocks not character specific.
 
I don't even look forward to getting a toon attuned a second time. I'm in Orias, pretty much a dwindling low pop server, and the world bosses are going to be miserable. Not to mention by now that we're in GA not many in my guild are even interested in running alts through SSM silver.
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			THIS THIS THIS THIS SO *cupcake*ING MUCH THIS.....the amp/ability upgrades needed to be addressed in a whole new way 2 weeks after launch....10weeks after launch still A HUUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE problem and is the MAIN reason driving me away from this game....I will play as long as my credd holds out and if not fixed by then I will be gone 40+weeks for EACH alt....no *cupcake* you not gonna happen fix this shit....posted this crap at least 10 times now FIX YOUR DROPS ASAP my god take 10 programers and fix it now   fix it fix it fix it fix it my god fix it....	
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{| class="blockquote"
THIS THIS THIS THIS SO *cupcake*ING MUCH THIS.....the amp/ability upgrades needed to be addressed in a whole new way 2 weeks after launch....10weeks after launch still A HUUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE problem and is the MAIN reason driving me away from this game....I will play as long as my credd holds out and if not fixed by then I will be gone 40+weeks for EACH alt....no *cupcake*you not gonna happen fix this shit....posted this crap at least 10 times now FIX YOUR DROPS ASAP my god take 10 programers and fix it now   fix it fix it fix it fix it my god fix it....
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{| class="blockquote"
Human have any idea how sound?
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{| class="blockquote"
THIS THIS THIS THIS SO *cupcake*ING MUCH THIS.....the amp/ability upgrades needed to be addressed in a whole new way 2 weeks after launch....10weeks after launch still A HUUUUUUUGGGGEEEEE problem and is the MAIN reason driving me away from this game....I will play as long as my credd holds out and if not fixed by then I will be gone 40+weeks for EACH alt....no *cupcake*you not gonna happen fix this shit....posted this crap at least 10 times now FIX YOUR DROPS ASAP my god take 10 programers and fix it now   fix it fix it fix it fix it my god fix it....
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{| class="blockquote"
^ Temper tantrum.
 
Yeah I'm sure devs will totally take you seriously.
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Unsubbing looks like the only possible way to get them to take things 'seriously'.
 
Many posters have put up some well thought out feedback/suggestions but in large part most of that is being ignored.
 
Things can change for sure but it's going to take a lot of work, time, and some major incentives to get people back and or continue to sub...
 
Ball's in their court I guess.	
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{| class="blockquote"
This thread, in a nutshell, is why the whole "max level is where the game starts" end-gaming mentality sucks. I fell into that trap in WoW. I refuse to do it in this game. There's just too much to do and see on the way to 50 to rush it.
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Different ways to play the game for different people. Some wants to reach the end-game as soon as possible, others want to unlock everything in a map, others farm, others improvise and do what they want, etc...
 
It's all about finding what you're looking for. If you don't fnd it, then the game you're playing isn't for you and there is nothing wrong about that.
 
For example, this week-end, I spent most of my time making various screenshots of random situations for a self-imposed challenges, between a couple of levelling for my Aurin. Lot of money lost, lots of sneaking past OP guards, lots of trigger-happy player avoiding, etc... but I liked it.
Mostly everyday, I log into my Draken to sneak inside the enemy's capital to hug the Aurin queen as a little near-ritualistic RP.
 
Some might find this pointless, but I have a lot of fun with that.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Different ways to play the game for different people. Some wants to reach the end-game as soon as possible, others want to unlock everything in a map, others farm, others improvise and do what they want, etc...
 
It's all about finding what you're looking for. If you don't fnd it, then the game you're playing isn't for you and there is nothing wrong about that.
 
For example, this week-end, I spent most of my time making various screenshots of random situations for a self-imposed challenges, between a couple of levelling for my Aurin. Lot of money lost, lots of sneaking past OP guards, lots of trigger-happy player avoiding, etc... but I liked it.
Mostly everyday, I log into my Draken to sneak inside the enemy's capital to hug the Aurin queen as a little near-ritualistic RP.
 
Some might find this pointless, but I have a lot of fun with that.
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			The content isn't that challenging.  Been done for weeks with raid attunement and still not raiding, because nobody can get the people together.  Guild walked in to practice trash with 18 people, and started arguing about whether or not it was even worth the time to do it without a full 20.  Next day, guild of 10 people.  GG  I am moving on.  	
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not to be rude... but couldn't you have compelted all of the badlands dailies in the time it took you to type out that post?
 
it's also 100% possible to get daily cap by doing dungeon- adventure or farming rune...	
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{| class="blockquote"
not to be rude... but couldn't you have compelted all of the badlands dailies in the time it took you to type out that post?
 
it's also 100% possible to get daily cap by doing dungeon- adventure or farming rune...
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{| class="blockquote"
You do realize doing the same dailies for the 30th time gets old really quick.
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{| class="blockquote"
not to be rude... but couldn't you have compelted all of the badlands dailies in the time it took you to type out that post?
 
it's also 100% possible to get daily cap by doing dungeon- adventure or farming rune...
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{| class="blockquote"
I hear there's this game that hands out raid gear and content like candy... it's called like Globe of WarArt or some BS like that.
 
 
anywhoo... WoW created unintended problems by making it too "quick and easy"... just saying. Carbine is trying to avoid that stuff....
 
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{| class="blockquote"
WoW at the moment is basically "Grind quests to 90, grind Timeless Isle to item level 496 and do Siege of Orgrimmar on one of four different difficulty levels until you unsubscribe from pure, weapons-grade boredom.
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yeah remove weekly cap. Let people grind their faces out to get stuff. Add attunement to it.
 
like point 46/55 is no requirement but 47/55 requires silver something and so forth to use.	
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Willin to bet that comment about clearing naxx, onyxia, toc, uldar, etc claims is easy was the normal modes and not the heroic versions. But I agree with the points about WotLK; that was the best expansion hands down to me. I could gear up in PvP puging BGs and only stepped into arena if I really had to (for a weapon). I could gear up my alts too. It had crap loads of stuff to do even IF there was not much activity in my guild. Here, every one I got to try this game have left...they all went back to WoW even though they are hella bored of the 6+ month no content lapse.
 
In WoW, you can pug and get shinys...not the best, not even close but good enough so that it makes people WANT to continue to login every day and actually feel like they are progressing their character.
 
I do not get that in this game, at all.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Arguably this is just highlighting the problem?
 
The people I see who are happiest with Wildstar's end-game aren't actually playing it, they're just doing things with a character at 50.
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{| class="blockquote"
Arguably this is just highlighting the problem?
 
The people I see who are happiest with Wildstar's end-game aren't actually playing it, they're just doing things with a character at 50.
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{| class="blockquote"
Matter of perspective. Strictly speaking everything they are doing at 50 is part of 'endgame'. Endgame =/= raids alone. Vet adventures, dungeons, eventually vet shiphands, PvP, housing, exploration / path capping, lore collection, RP, social activities, expert crafting, etc etc etc.... they are all 'Endgame'.
 
I agree on the notion that folks enjoying non-raid content tend to be pretty happy; but I don't agree that folks 'not doing endgame' are happy at 50, because what they are doing is indeed engame, just not hardcore raiding.
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{| class="blockquote"
That's a peculiar semantic quibble, particularly since it requires redefining "endgame" to a technical all-encompassing definition instead of how everyone has been using it in the context of Wildstar for this entire conversation and indeed the whole forum. Let me toss a couple sandbags on those goalposts:
 
The people I encounter who seem to be happiest with their experience at level 50 are finding their own things to do and avoiding the end tier content Carbine has made available and exclusive to 50s.
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			TIL that since I went back to the Bio-Lab to finish up Dominion rep, Ellevar is end-game.	
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{| class="blockquote"
TIL that since I went back to the Bio-Lab to finish up Dominion rep, Ellevar is end-game.
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{| class="blockquote"
Exploration and completion certainly could be considered endgame; I even would bet that eventually nifty things will be put in the leveling zones for 50's to go back and find... But I happily explained my point within your sandbagged goal posts using vet content. The folks running vet adventures and dungeons just for their own sake seem to be as happy as those playing with housing (which does have level gates on certaint plugs/ items/ features) and other things that you wouldn't consider 'endgame' (TM protostar). 
 
So my point still stands; and really I get the feeling we are in agreement. The atunement and raiding folks seem to be least happy; and the folks doing vets for fun + other non raiding stuff seem most happy. 
 
Hardcore TM
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