147891-im-done-but-heres-some-feedback-page-2

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== Content ==
			Yea when class gear doesnt have the best stats for the class some times. 	
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			think I'm only using like 3 of the class pieces. at least its interesting	
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I think there was one for f2p launch but no idea if it got updated after more changes happened. We always got rune spreadsheets xD
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If I have to look through a series of spreadsheets just to understand how the game works that's bad design.
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@Elitists:
You people sound like this clown
 
"Spreadsheets aren't hard, you just need to READ!"
"OMG noob L2P!"
"Scrub doesn't bother with knowing where to get guides GO GOOGLE IT".
 
^this is why this thread was made and why people avoid the forums
 
@PepperDragon:
Enigma guides are not found in the first page of search results unless you specifically type them.
I specifically linked the search results when typing the exact phrase you mentioned.
First is that unreadable crap I mentioned on the 'Mistakes Were Made' website with translucent background for unreadable text (on Firefox) when I posted it.
And I JUST NOW checked it (nothing changed on my end, same browser) and now Firefox shows a plain white background so that the guide is readable.  Curious thing, imagine that.  Guess they fixed the screw up and now want to claim I was making it up.  Sure thing buds...internet totally doesn't have an archive anytime anywhere to capture that.
But my issue isn't with them.  It is with the presumption that people can easily find info and are lazy if they don't dig enough for it despite not even being up to date or easily accessible.
 
Nowhere in the entire search results for several pages does it even mention or link to that Enigma website.  As far as a newbie knows, it does not exist.  Therefore it is not a valid resource for WildStar if it cannot be easily found with general search terms.
 
But all this is so entertaining with so much /popcorn :)
Silly people having no clue that the emperor is wearing no clothes.
			
				
	Edited December 12, 2015 by FantasticCupcake	
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As far as a newbie knows, it does not exist. 
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Nowhere in the entire search results for several pages does it even mention or link to that Enigma website.  As far as a newbie knows, it does not exist.  Therefore it is not a valid resource for WildStar if it cannot be easily found with general search terms.
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Silly people having no clue that the emperor is wearing no clothes.
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Forums & Reddit are known to be openly hostile to most new people.  Most of them don't bother to make an account on either or visit them regularly.
And forum posters tend to be an even smaller margin of players.
 
Enigma guides are not easily accessed without knowing about them ahead of time.
And reddit?  You have even forum posters saying they completely stay away from the subreddit due to how it has just become a downvoting toxic hellhole.
 
So the consensus tends to be that people need to expose themselves to the toxicity and dig around on RC4-only forums, ignore their browser warnings, and sift through mountains of threads to find information on how to play their class by being linked to a spreadsheet on how to rune or how to do decent DPS so they aren't auto-kicked from dungeons by elitists.
 
Or they can just play FF14 or another MMO.  I guess the market decided what they wanted while some people here still wonder why X content is devoid of participation.
 
The game itself is difficult enough, but the additional difficulty of finding useful updated information with a search engine (using basic search terms) means that it presents an additional artificial difficulty cliff for newcomers.
 
Content should be easily accessible on an external 3rd-party website with guides and everything.  The closest I found was WildWeave and even much of that info isn't fully updated yet.
And even finding WildWeave took way too much digging around to hear a mention of it and search for it specifically.
			
				
	Edited December 12, 2015 by FantasticCupcake	
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			...you post too much to know so little...	
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this thread is delivering....
Have to agree with CK	
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If I have to look through a series of spreadsheets just to understand how the game works that's bad design.
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Content should be easily accessible on an external 3rd-party website with guides and everything. 
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			I don't even think you have to figure out if you are a crit or multi hit class. Any DPS is probably going to do fine stacking more of either on until you get into the kind of content where you are surrounded by this info.	
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			Why is it new players come on the forums and think they know everything and that there opinion means more on every aspect of the game then those who have been around since the start? 	
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That being said Carbine puts absolutely 0 effort forth to bring any sort of guide to light on their forums, barely anything is stickied. if i go to a specific class forum i expect there to be a sticked class guide or atleast a sticked post with links to resources on said class. carbine doesnt do this and it sucks to see so many people ask the same stuff over and over again even though its been answered already just because the topics get buried.
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i wont miss you OP. You seem to play WS as a singleplayer game (which is fine for the easy content it has like housing, leveling, expeditions) but once it comes to group play the lone wolf mentality does get you nowhere.
the rune system is pretty easy to understand and there are guides on youtube for the dummies, there are even class guides which tell you which runes to put in what piece of gear to be BiS. and even if you dont rune BiS because its expensive you will get an idea what sets to use.... unless #wildstartohardigoplaywowagain
byebye
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			well when you make a billion posts a day and they are all gibberish you're gonna get some warning points. also you accrue them faster if you are a repeat offender.	
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			From what i got told you get banned for talking about what the mods do as well so they post isn't going to end well lol	
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			Personal insults, senseless bashing and mongering get those points fast ;)	
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			I strongly agree with many of the Op points. And its well written. I am sure that carbine should take this ad very valid feedback	
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There are a few assumptions about elitism in gaming that I'd like to clear up for you.
The majority of players need to be told what to do by the minority.	The minority are the controlling hand in deciding what is and is not optimal.
 
All players are capable of figuring out how to play this game (or any game for that matter).  It is a conscious choice to seek out information rather than figure it out for themselves.  It is perfectly fine to choose to look for help due to either lack of time or desire to test for yourself but there is no insidious motive on the part of the minority to be controlling those seeking information.  Its actually the opposite; we want to give everyone the ability to progress further in the game and are willing to put in our time and effort to provide that information.  Its actually rather generous and shows a love for both the game and all of its players.  It would be elitist to withhold that information but that never seems to occur to anyone.
 
Those players that do testing and provide that information are only interpreting game mechanics written by the developers.  The testing we do is to figure out how to best play within the limits of the game's rules, not to determine those rules.  Many act as if we're selfish in providing information on what should and shouldn't be done when in reality we are just figuring out what the game itself determines is best.  Everyone is allowed to play games the way they want but not wanting to play with someone poorly optimized (in either gear, spec, or rotation) is no more elitist/selfish than choosing to play poorly, either through lack of effort or a rebellious attitude.  To call one elitist and the other personal choice is a logical fallacy.
 
The general distaste toward the upper minority, in this game at least, is both disrespectful and unjustified and its disheartening to see people continue with the anti-"elitist" group think when critiquing Wildstar.
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			There is just no satisfying you. We point out useful tools both for people who just want a basic understanding (the class forums, Enigma guides) and for people who want something much more detailed (stat spreadsheets), and you still claim information is not out there.	
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@Naunet
 
I believe cupcake is saying although the info is out there it isn't easy to obtain for a normal person. i believe cupcake then asserts that wildstar is bad because either
 
A. they have a lack of in-game tools to help you learn this stuff without 3rd party guides
B. they aren't working towards making that info more public via official websites, stickied posts, etc.	
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			I just don't understand what's difficult about checking the class forums, then. The info is there. It takes me less than 5 minutes to find it. But they're so hung up on google searches...	
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I just don't understand what's difficult about checking the class forums, then. The info is there. It takes me less than 5 minutes to find it. But they're so hung up on google searches...
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And the elitists?  Point me to some google docs spreadsheet and tell me 'read it and figure it out scrub'.  That's elitism in a nutshell.
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 i think i now know why the pvp servers died. the pvpers killed them.
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And the elitists?  Point me to some google docs spreadsheet and tell me 'read it and figure it out scrub'.  That's elitism in a nutshell.
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You know who Carbine has actually spited, endgame players.  They have received no new content.  All endgame has been nerfed immensely due to change to power in f2p.  Practically all the new content has been released has been for casual players and also for content what I like to call non-raid endgame.  Change to gear and how runes work and also class changes every patch has people having to rework their gear which costs plat.  Case in point, last week's patch, warriors had to now gear for max strikethrough cap, as prior they did not need it with an amp.  Yes, knew it was coming, but it cost some players up to 60p to rerune their gear.  Raiding runes/gear costs more than non raid and it should.  That's the cost of raiding, but when you constantly do this, it can wear down on players.  I can't wait for the new Raid to show up, and if it is as hard as DS first was when it became accessible for 20man, I will drink in the tears.
 
The request for multiple difficulties of raids, nerf vet dungeons or introduce normal mode of level 50 (adventures!).  Honestly, it's only because people want to experience the content but apparently they can't because their skill level isn't enough.  But they can if they just geared up for it to do it and practiced the content and get better. Naunet gave an example that shows it can be done.  But comes down to the "give it to me now" players.  It may take time but apparently it's to long for them.  
 
If vet dungeons to hard, run it normal and see how it is done, most of what the bosses do are in the normal version.  
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I can barely comprehend the stupid from your post, cupcake, I do feel the need to address one topic.
 
Your mantra (and I paraphrase here): Google doesn't show it so it is an elitist guide because I said so.
 
Now let's delve into the mind of a new player. If they want to know how to play their class they will do one of two things:
 
            1. Ask in zone chat. And let me just say that if I got a penny for every time I've heard players reply with "Check out the enigma class guides" then I'd probably have a dollar or two.
            2. They will search on the mighty google. Would you look at that, if you search "Wildstar Class Guides" it's a Christmas day miracle folks because the top result is a reddit post with links to EVERY SINGLE ENIGMA GUIDE.
 
Now you say that you cant find it on google. So let me just help you out:
     1. Go to google.com (I know you can do that since you are so adamant about its use) 
     2. Type "Wildstar Class Guides"
     3. Click the enter button on your keyboard or move your mouse over the search button and click it.
     4. Click on the first result.
     5. Choose the class you wish to view, then click on it.
 
If these five steps are too hard for any new players, then let me just be elitist and tell them to leave because Wildstar is WAY to difficult for someone who can't do that. 	
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Information is being purposefully withheld in an elitist fashion to further subdivide the WildStar playerbase so the 'hardcore' players can continue to tell others 'you are the problem' and 'go back to your other MMO'.
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Yeah, your argument is pretty bad cupcake. It doesn't show up on google so it's elitist? It is withheld information? It's on a public forum, or on reddit, or easily accessible by asking around. WTF?! All of the people who actually took the time to make the guides and post them here are the exact opposite of elitist. They WANT to help new people learn, they WANT to see people progress and enjoy the game, they WANT the game to succeed. 
 
Stop feeling like you're being vindicated all the time because someone disagrees with you.
 
And newbie hostile? Nowhere have I seen that, all of the threads asking for help are generally responded to in a friendly manner unless they start poop throwing (the newb). And then people like you come along, new players who insult vet players with your "holier than thou" attitude and think that everyone who was here before f2p is "toxic", everyone who plays pvp is "toxic", everyone who raids is "toxic", everyone who isn't you is "toxic", then flamebait people into insulting you.
 
And none of the posts have been horrible to the OP, a lot of them were useful until you and others came in wailing about how everyone is toxic and elitist and rude and mean. So many people offered solutions and even TO HELP THEM OUT IN GAME, linked to guides, told similar stories etc etc.
 
So please, on behalf of everyone you've insulted for no reason, go sit in your ivory tower in your housing and get off the forums. It would make the place a hell of a lot better, I can tell you that.	
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 Goodness forbid some of these elitists bother to post their info outside the RC4-only forums or outside of Reddit on a website that is accessible via general search terms.
 ...you might wanna spend less time playing forum-warrior to defend elitism/hardcore-only mentality and make those Enigma guides searchable on Google.  (It is something called Search Engine Optimization, have fun with it).
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Wha....?  This guy HAS to be trolling now.
 
Either that or he didn't read a single thing; especially Daluu's post which clearly defined what elitism is.
 
Please don't take this bait, people.
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For someone screaming as loudly about elitists or nobody helping new players....
 
 
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My thing now is pretty simple.  I let the pug know that I'm a '3 strikes' person.  After 3 wipes on the same boss, I hop out.  They can replace me with someone far more patient.Since I'm the healer, I'm hoping this gives them incentive NOT to keep wiping but to improve or bother with consumables next time.
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For someone screaming as loudly about elitists or nobody helping new players....
 
 
 
Man, that sure helps new players.
 
This guy with his long dissertation posts, campaining for new players on the forums with balloons, confetti and fireworks.... but when it comes to actually helping people in game - naahhhhh 3 wipes and I'm out, noobs!
 
(oh, don't forget stat food for level 10 Academy!)
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I dont understand why you still bother with that cupcake. Its very clear that no matter what you say, if its against his or hers point of view its the incorrect and most of the time elitist and toxic view of things.
 
I think its a pretty odd thing to say that the information isnt there when it is by either a quick google search or by looking at the forums, or at reddit. Cupcake seem to infantilize every new player, uncapable of realising that the information so called difficulty isnt why people leave, nor is the toxic behaviour, but simply because people either find a new hypetrain, that the game wasnt for em or that they are simply tired of a mismanaged game.
 
Now Im not saying this as a doom predicition, its just natural and it happens to every game.
 
 
@Reconditioned, what did you expect? :D
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by Thalothean	
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I just don't understand what's difficult about checking the class forums, then. The info is there. It takes me less than 5 minutes to find it. But they're so hung up on google searches...
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Because developers have long admitted that a majority of the MMO player base does not visit the game's forums. So, given that such is known by the developers, common sense says that if you want the average casual player in your game (i.e. the money), put the information inside the friggin game and make it easily accessible. Either that, or don't try to design any sort of complex system. Because otherwise, all you'll do in the end is bleed your player base.
 
Which Carbine seems to be very good at doing.
 
As a personal note, there are close to 10 of us that play MMOs between myself, the wife, my 22 year old son, my two best friends, at cetera. The games that held them the longest (and varies between them as to which title) were: City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic. All of them very accessible games. Meanwhile, of my entire circle, I am the only one that ever visits a game forum. They've been playing MMOs for over 10 years, and have never gone to a game's forum. Not even once.
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I do agree that many of the systems in Wildstar are too complex for what they are but its not beyond the scope of much critical thinking.  What level of thought you think games should require is a different story and rather subjective.
 
The problem with having all the information you need in game (i.e. a guide) for either classes, runing, etc. is that a lot of the time what is optimal is not necessarily intended to be optimal.  I think a situation of having dev provided guides in game would make for even more toxic exchange between the two groups being discussed.  Now if you want to have those more dedicated players to have their own guides put into the game, thats great.  But money would have to exchange hands for that to happen and I don't see that as a possibility.  
 
I also don't think visiting the forums is any issue at all because asking for help in-game can yield the same results; either through explanation or pointing to a forum thread with an explanation.  Refusal to visit the forums (or any helpful site) is on you at that point, not the fault Carbine or any other player.  MMOs are generally more complex than single player games and its been an unspoken understanding of the community for a long time that 3rd party resources (i.e. guides) or in game testing is required for succeeding at end game content.  
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I do agree that many of the systems in Wildstar are too complex for what they are but its not beyond the scope of much critical thinking.  What level of thought you think games should require is a different story and rather subjective.
 
The problem with having all the information you need in game (i.e. a guide) for either classes, runing, etc. is that a lot of the time what is optimal is not necessarily intended to be optimal.  I think a situation of having dev provided guides in game would make for even more toxic exchange between the two groups being discussed.  Now if you want to have those more dedicated players to have their own guides put into the game, thats great.  But money would have to exchange hands for that to happen and I don't see that as a possibility.  
 
I also don't think visiting the forums is any issue at all because asking for help in-game can yield the same results; either through explanation or pointing to a forum thread with an explanation.  Refusal to visit the forums (or any helpful site) is on you at that point, not the fault Carbine or any other player.  MMOs are generally more complex than single player games and its been an unspoken understanding of the community for a long time that 3rd party resources (i.e. guides) or in game testing is required for succeeding at end game content.  
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Selective perception is a very strong cognitive bias that can actually change how one sees the world.  Either that or someone has taken trolling too far.
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			So not only do I need the game to be easier as a casual, I'm lazy too?  :(	
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So not only do I need the game to be easier as a casual, I'm lazy too?   :(
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beattle, I've seen you post multiple critique's of player opinions............but you've offered up aboslutely nothing of substance yourself. So I ask you, is there anything relevant you plan on adding to any of the current discussions........... or are you going to continue with the "noob bashing".
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Here's the thing though.  Nobody probably started at a point where they looked up a guide immediately after hitting 50.
 
IIRC my experience correctly, as a dps, I just did vet dungeons until I found someone that was kicking my ass in the same level of gear, then i tried to mimic them, or look up somehitng to improve myself after discovering what I was doing was not the best thing you could do.  
 
In fact, this IS the lazy way of doing things... finding someone else that did it before you and copying them, isn't it?
 
As time went on and my experience with the game got higher, then you are a point to where you can instinctively figure out what to go for next.  Even if you're wrong, you are at a level where those minor incremental changes don't mean too much, because generally your intuition isn't going to be off by much, but overall will still be an increase.
			
				
	Edited December 17, 2015 by MoePork	
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Regarding guides and such- they are not nearly as necessary as people are making out in this thread. It's true that Carbine has make runes seem more complicated than they are, and so people run out and find guides. They could do more to present the information in a less daunting way so people could understand that the complicated bits are for min/maxing and not necessary.I do think Carbine has some work to do in terms of making runes more accessible, not by changing the system, but changing how its presented (or, imo, but pre-slotting non-orange gear with non-set runes). Builds- usually people ask for help. 
 
In my own guild, I think the number of people who ever read a guide on a dungeon boss is very low. I think I maybe watched a video on Stormtalon way back in the day. I've watched a few of Moe's as an experienced player, and they are quite good. I'd definitely point people do them if they were looking for something. But you know, I run a dungeon circle for learning, and I haven't pointed anyone toward his videos from there. Instead, we fired up an instance and I just teach the mechanics as we go. I answer questions people have about runes and gear, and it's a nice, community experience.
 
Yeah, you are going to go to guides and such once you start hitting the high end raids. But for dungeons, it's all about how much you as an individual player want to dive in.	
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The problem is you're not looking at this objectively yourself, you're not thinking "gee I wonder how the VAST MAJORITY of people like to play games". I love the Enigma guides they're great, however if I told my mates to read them and the rune guides they'd probably just stop playing (if they were playing). It doesn't matter if you think that's lazy because "how hard is it to google", you thinking that doesn't keep any players playing the game now does it? Casuals are important, because through sheer numbers they keep revenue up and the queues times down.
 
As Vangaurdian stated, most gamers have ZERO interest in getting on the forums and reading guide after guide. A lot of these players would be completely happy to have their points auto spent for them or alternatively...
 
The best thing Carbine could do is in the LAS have a tick box/drop down menu to show "community suggested builds" like Enigmas that would highlight where the player should be spending their ability/amp points. This for two good reasons, Enigma guides are basically what anyone looks at anyway and secondly it would be a nice nod from the devs to Enigma for doing the guides for the community. Same with the runes in gear, when you hit purple ilvl 50+ gear there should be somewhere on the rune item screen that shows recommended runes to slot for a class if you're dps or support.
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			Some of these suggestions are playing on the making people lazy.  Lets not let them figure out their las so they don't know what to do.  Lets put in runes into the gear so they don't learn to rune.  Sly, it's an idea, but I see it escalating to runes in all gear.	
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The best thing Carbine could do is in the LAS have a tick box/drop down menu to show "community suggested builds" like Enigmas that would highlight where the player should be spending their ability/amp points. ... Same with the runes in gear, when you hit purple ilvl 50+ gear there should be somewhere on the rune item screen that shows recommended runes to slot for a class if you're dps or support.
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Some of these suggestions are playing on the making people lazy.  Lets not let them figure out their las so they don't know what to do.  Lets put in runes into the gear so they don't learn to rune.  Sly, it's an idea, but I see it escalating to runes in all gear.
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Also, "casuals" are not necessary for an MMO to succeed.  If Carbine had executed many things much better then the type of game this was meant to be would have held the right amount of players.  Their original goal was 200-300k subs. No matter what Yashfan or anyone else who isn't apart of the original target playerbase says, this game isn't dying due to "catering to the hardcore".  Its dying because Carbine has and continues to make many mistakes both in design and execution.
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Their original goal was 200-300k subs.
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Do you have a source for this? Or are you just making these numbers up out of thin air? I seem to remember Carbine being all *cupcake* and vinegar during the Wildstar hype about how they were going to topple babby's first MMO WoW and how they would have a million subs. Etc. Hardcore. Breakout gameplay.
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Do you have a source for this? Or are you just making these numbers up out of thin air? I seem to remember Carbine being all *cupcake* and vinegar during the Wildstar hype about how they were going to topple babby's first MMO WoW and how they would have a million subs. Etc. Hardcore. Breakout gameplay.
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this would make their break even with some profit probably around $3M - $4.5M per year, which seems highly possible.  There are many companies today who operate on a lot less.  hell there are companies that operate and never generate a profit, but investors keep it going because they believe in the products.
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So you want me to look at something subjective, objectively?  There is no be all, end all right answer.  There is just two different groups of gamers who want this game to go in their desired direction.
 
Also, "casuals" are not necessary for an MMO to succeed.  If Carbine had executed many things much better then the type of game this was meant to be would have held the right amount of players.  Their original goal was 200-300k subs. No matter what Yashfan or anyone else who isn't apart of the original target playerbase says, this game isn't dying due to "catering to the hardcore".  Its dying because Carbine has and continues to make many mistakes both in design and execution.
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the lone wolf mentality does get you nowhere.
 
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Precisely this. Did you think to ask anybody about this stuff before you ragequit? Are you not in a guild? All it takes is asking in /advice or asking a guild member who understands the game a bit better. There are scores of people willing and ready to help new players at any time, and you haven't utilized any of them. There are tons of guilds willing to help new players get geared up, and you seem to have avoided them as well. This is not a single player game, OP. Why are you making it unnecessarily hard on yourself and then trying to blame the game for the problem?
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Nobody cares and it's just pointless drivel to talk about how you or I would approach the situation or how the OP should because 99% of players don't make useful feedback posts like this on the forums in the first place, they just leave.
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An MMO definitely needs its casuals to survive, so to say otherwise is delusional. However, it also needs its end-game players and serious progression raiders. While us casuals usually won't openly admit it, it seems, those are the people running the fan sites, making the guides, and are the glue that keeps things together in a third-party format so that others can have an easier time with the instances, character builds, rotations, et cetera.
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