115782-changes-that-many-people-have-talked-with-me-about-page-3

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll say what I said before: if you think the game population is fine right now and won't be seeing further losses, then you should just ignore this whole thread and all the others like it. Seriously. Carbine is doing everything right and Wildstar will still be here for you to play in two years,unchanged, its basic philosophy intact.  If the game is fine the way it is, nothing said here will change that.
----
			
Apologies ahead of time, btw. I am going to reply to a few posts as I read through this thread. I know there are several more pages to come.
 
{| class="blockquote"
I also don't see what you're talking about by "trivializing" the content. What's wrong with easy content as long as more difficult content is also available?
Making dungeons that average players can get through to go alongside your tougher ones is...somehow beneath you guys? Or what? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm going to play a drinking game.  Every time you make wild speculations and unsubstantiated claims, I'm going to take a shot, and at this rate I'll be drunk before I leave work.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Apologies ahead of time, btw. I am going to reply to a few posts as I read through this thread. I know there are several more pages to come.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
as far as poor messaging goes, im sure im not the first but phage tech proto types in colorful run room is sor hard to discern orange from red and blue from purple, any chance you can make them shapes? square circle star triangle etc?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's 5:00 somewhere, eh?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
One point, only one of these three options is available in the groupfinder, which would make sense if you want people to pug these (and pugging is going to be important for the casual, "get in and do some group content" crowd).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1 - players always choose the path of least resistance
 
2 - For dungeons....well, there isn't any because they all take too damn long [...]  dungeons that last 30 minutes max with a decent group and about 15 minutes with a seasoned group as a stop gap for the harder and longer dungeons.
 
3 - Carbine devs, I dare you to play this game like a regular player every night after work: 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shiphands are being added to the group finder.  Expeditions are still sort of forgotten content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
2 - Two of the four dungeons are about 30m in duration.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I never bothered with dungeons or adventures while leveling because first, I'd heard horror stories since beta that pug'ing anything in WS was an absolute nightmare, and that it was faster to level via quests anyways. I did however, clear every single shiphand. I tried to solo an expedition once and got utterly wrecked by the endboss, then promptly forgot they even existed.
 
Now, they're not worth trying to do because no one bothers to do them. You'll have to tell us if that's more because no one is leveling, or because the effort vs reward balance is so out of whack
 
However, I don't care at all about pre 50 content. If there were things to look forward to at 50, you can get there pretty quickly and mindlessly.
 
I have absolutely no faith at all that the ProtoStar L2P dungeon is going to make players "get better," which means the existing dungeon and raid content, and anything new in that tier, will forever be inaccessible to most players.
 
Trying for a tick/tock where you make content for specifically for "casuals" one drop, and then content specifically for "hardcore" the next drop, just means 50% of the content for everyone.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This would be for groups that are VERY well geared and coordinated.
 
If I'm pugging STL or KV, I'm epecting a 45 minute dungeon if the group is capable of completing it successfully.
 
But I couldn't see making them any shorter. As I've said before, I think STL is the gold standard in terms of dungeon design, for me at least. Perfect length, great fights- just love it.
----
			
For anyone else reading, please use Punjoke's post as an example of how to give great feedback, if rather poor puns.
 
{| class="blockquote"
1 - The reason I bring this up is because for the past month and a half, maybe two months, it's been almost impossible to pug a Normal dungeon. I've leveled up three characters in that time frame, and I talked three friends into picking the game up and trying it. During that time I attempted to run them through the Adventures and Dungeons, but largely failed. When going in with three people, a healer and two DPS, we never got an STL or a KV to pop. When going in with four people, a healer, a tank and two DPS, we did get STL to pop twice - but there was a wait. We got two WotW, a single Tempest Refuge, and a single Crimelords. Malgrave Trail never popped, nor did Skullcano or Swordmaiden. We were almost always queued while questing. When I rolled up my Esper and wanted to try healing, I attempted to solo queue for STL and KV for a week and never got in.
 
2 - I have two issues that I see with Wildstar: One, it does a very poor job of teaching common MMO staples to players unfamiliar with them. Two, it is quite simply overwhelming.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I have absolutely no faith at all that the ProtoStar L2P dungeon is going to make players "get better," which means the existing dungeon and raid content, and anything new in that tier, will forever be inaccessible to most players.
 
Trying for a tick/tock where you make content for specifically for "casuals" one drop, and then content specifically for "hardcore" the next drop, just means 50% of the content for everyone.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This would be for groups that are VERY well geared and coordinated.
 
If I'm pugging STL or KV, I'm epecting a 45 minute dungeon if the group is capable of completing it successfully.
 
But I couldn't see making them any shorter. As I've said before, I think STL is the gold standard in terms of dungeon design, for me at least. Perfect length, great fights- just love it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Totally valid feedback. I'll pass this along to that team. I have two on my housing plot and really enjoyed them both, but they are perhaps a bit too hidden from players.
Which expedition and which parts of it were so difficult? What was hard about it?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There should definitely be difficult content in the game....but there needs to be easier content too. TimeTravel does not share this feeling unfortunately but I'm hoping he does. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But I do agree with you! =) And we are working to create more of that content as well so that folks have more ways to learn and improve their character--without also removing the challenging content.
 
It's an oversimplification, but we have:
Easy:  World Story instances, Expeditions, Shiphands
Medium: Adventures
Hard: Dungeons
 
Raids: Raids
Hardcore: Phageborn Colossi
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I just wanna point out: Pleasepleaseplease also include challenge in the solo/low-man content. :S Those of us who probably won't get to raid deserve super hard stuff, too!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are multiple reasons people are not going that route.
 
1) Unless you love exploring the maps (get 100% completion and what not) or got lost somewhere (new players tend to do that lol) you wont even know about shiphands. None of the actual regional, zone or storyline quest itself takes you to the point of completing that kind of content. You really have to run right into the npc to see that there's a quest for you available. Maybe that could be changed in future updates or make it more obvious for new players that most zones carry these missions.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What's a Phageborn Colossi? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But I do agree with you! =) And we are working to create more of that content as well so that folks have more ways to learn and improve their character--without also removing the challenging content.
 
It's an oversimplification, but we have:
Easy:  World Story instances, Expeditions, Shiphands
Medium: Adventures
Hard: Dungeons
 
Raids: Raids
Hardcore: Phageborn Colossi
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shiphands are a lot of fun for everyone. They're a lot of fun because, unlike dungeons, they are 100% stress free and generally have a variety of different goals for the player to accomplish. They can't really be compared to dungeons, however, because they can be done solo without any problems and due to how easy they are, they're not actually that much different from just questing in the overworld, except that they're more streamlined, scripted, and varied.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What's a Phageborn Colossi? 
----
			
I love the dungeons.  I think that the biggest problem with the dungeons is not that they are too hard or too easy, but a problem with incentives.
 
Dungeons are by and large actually pretty simple for the most part.  There's a few exceptions that are pretty taxing on the average player, like dodging the shockwaves on Drokk or dodging the flame waves on Rayna Darkspear.  They're trickier because they take a bit of timing, spacial awareness, forecasting, attention.  You have to know "if I start now will I make it?" and in the case of something like Rayna, if the answer is no, you're dead. (Drokk you can back up and wait for another AoE pulse, and taking one is survivable)
 
But take something like STL, the bosses are very forgiving.  Blade-Wind lets you mess up every ability and recover.  You can not drop the telegraphs on the birds and survive.  You can get hit by any of the telegraphs and survive at least once.  Aethros is pretty much the same, no single ability will kill you if you screw it up, unless you stand in multiple stacked AoEs. Even stormtalon himself, while he'll kill you if you don't interrupt his channel, gives you lots of time and other players help. 
 
Interrupting isn't necessary the problem.  You don't die in STL because players don't know to interrupt stormtalon.  I've pugged a fair bit, and Stormtalon was one of the dungeons that popped more frequently.  We often died on Stormtalon himself, and the reason was always similar, the tank was unfamiliar with the fight and was moving too much.  Or the healer was unfamiliar with the fight and couldn't keep up with the tank and the ranged DPS taking damage.  Or the DPS was unfamiliar with the fight and were taking too much damage in the static phase.
 
The problem was not that people didn't do enough DPS. It wasn't that people didn't know how to interrupt or avoid telegraphs.  The problem was that stormtalon is a fight that's unique to anything you've done in the game up until that point.  Different healers have different ranges, and everyone needs to learn to move differently.  The group has to work together to make sure everyone stays alive, and while doing that you have to avoid damage.
 
The thing is, when you've done stormtalon a few times, it's easy to do your part. You know about how long the phases are.  You can just step out of the circles when they drop on the ground.  You can keep the dragon pretty much stationary.  The tank knows how to dodge out of the AoEs or when he can take a few ticks.  The healer's under a lot less pressure because everyone's staying pretty still.  It's easy, but not because you're playing with people who are super skilled compared to the last group, but because you're playing with people who are familiar with the fight.
 
The issue is like I said to start, with incentives.  A single reward for a single playthrough of the dungeon while leveling isn't going to be enough. That's kind of the problem with the state of the game already.  The reason people have a hard time with Stormtalon is because once they've completed it for their attunement, they are done with it.  You don't want gear from it.  If you're leveling, the experience you get from it is not very good. 
 
If you're the last player in a group that is all pretty skilled at STL, you will learn the fights, you will finish the dungeon, and while you might die a few times, you'll get to the end and get whatever reward was promised to you.  The next time you go back, you'll be one of those people who are a bit more skilled at STL.  And each time you go back, you'll get better until you're the person who helps carry that person who is new to the dungeon.
 
The problem is, right now you don't go back.  When I was doing pickups, many times I'd sit in queue for a very long time.  When I did get into a group, it was generally with people who were new to 50, or new to their role.  It was their first time running a dungeon on that character.  That's cool, I like helping people out.  The problem is it would mean a 4 hour run sometimes. People would get frustrated and quit.  But that's kind of expected for something that's brand new to you.  The other thing that's expected is that when you get to the end, and you finally kill that boss, that you get something exciting.  You get something that makes it worthwhile for you and the rest of those people to stick with it until you finally beat the boss, despite the DPS that ragequit at Drokk, and the bunch of learning wipes on forgemaster.
 
But when I do complete it, I just get salvage fodder.  The same value to me as I could get from salvaging an item from a 5 minute challenge. That's if I even win the roll. A big challenge is sticking through the dungeon for that whole time knowing that at the end that's all I'll get. And when you are that new player that finally gets through that dungeon, whether it's for your attunement step, or whether it's for your one-time quest leveling up, you don't think "Nice reward, and I'm sure I can do it faster next time." you think "God, I'm glad I got this over with and don't have to do it again."
 
I tried to pug when I wasn't able to raid due to lack of interest.  There was no incentive, it was frustrating.  I wanted to do it just because I enjoy the actual dungeons themselves. But in the end, without any external reward, and without any expectation that I'll get grouped with players that are capable of finishing the dungeon, I stopped trying.  As do other players who would be in my position, being strong enough to complete the dungeons.  All that you have left are the few players who are new or haven't been able to complete the dungeon yet.
 
If you give players an exciting incentive to continue to do dungeons, then the players who have done them a few times will want to continue to do them, which will make the whole experience much better for veteran and new players alike.  One time unlocks and attunements are not going to do that. 
 
Hopefully in Drop 4 you guys can do that.
 
 
Edit: One additional point that doesn't fit into the rest but fits into the theme of this thread.  The medal objectives are not well explained.  Why you want a medal, how to get a medal, what your reward for the medal was, etc.  I remember when I first started playing there was an explanation by Timetravel about how one of the reasons people were getting less EXP than they expected from leveling dungeons was because they weren't completing the objectives and challenges and getting the medal, and were instead only getting kill EXP.  The issue is nowhere does the game tell you "You want to do these things to get a gold medal", and "A gold medal means you will get 1,000,000 EXP" or "You just completed a challenge so you get this piece of loot and this much EXP" or "You failed a challenge so you can not get a gold medal"
 
Instead you just get a list of optional things shoved along with your quests on the right side of the screen.  Most challenges are tied to bosses so you don't really know whether the loot is from the boss or from the challenge.  When I first started playing there was a lot of people who wouldn't go to the side rooms in STL to get the optional objectives because they simply had no idea they were supposed to, and it was impossible to convince them that they should. 
 
This is something that can almost be done entirely with UI.  Even just popping up a little toast or window like Diablo 3 does when you complete a challenge, saying how much experience you got and tying it to a loot drop you're rolling for would be huge.  Similarly, just having on the events window something like
 
Bronze: +1 item, +1,000,000 exp
Silver: +2 items, +2,000,000 exp
Gold: +3 items, +3,000,000 exp
 
Challenge: +1 item, +3,000,000 exp
 
And the tasks needed to complete them would be huge.  And then rather than just say at the end, "Gold medal earned!" have it say "Gold Medal Earned, +3 items, +3,000,000 exp!" I'm not even talking about changing any functionality on the player's side, just letting them know what the heck is going on.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is the worst possible way to look at things, as I mentioned before in the thread.
 
The problem is that you've decided on the model that "more people= more difficulty".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The Rhinos in Genetic Archives. ^_^
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not true- all the content he's listed except for raids can be done with 5 people.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Which is irrelevant when the items in question are clearly being presented as the solo content... which was my point. It's also disingenuous to say that how they can be done is how they are intended to be done. The solo-intended content presented is also the easy content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not sure this is actually true.
 
Algoroc -- First shiphand is located at the beginning of a MAJOR story and quest hub, and there's a cookie crumb communicator alert/quest that calls you for it at the appropriate level (11? 12?)
 
Celestion -- Slightly more out of the way.  You get the trigger right after a major story line (Tree of Life) and before a fairly skippable Mordesh storyline with a zombie infested zone.  Still the same level, but the area is arranged differently and I would say it's easier to miss.  It's QUITE easy to go from Sylvan Glade to Thayd and skip the north eastern part of Celestion.
 
Galeras -- This one is out of the way, as it occurs after the massive Skywatch/Murgh Assault storyline and is linked in with the Osun quests which feel a little tacked on to get people a few more levels before heading into Whitevale.  Still, not hidden though and I believe there's a communicator cookiecrumb to it.
 
Whitevale -- A bit out of the way, but in the Protostar area that starts the Pell story that leads into Metal Maw.  
 
Farside -- Believe there's one at Bravo?  I'll admit here I get kind of fuzzy.
 
Wilderrun -- RIGHT IN THE STARTING AREA.  Can't miss this one.
 
Malgrave -- Very missable, located way out in BFE Malgrave to the east.
 
Anyhow, some are here and there, but several quite findable, so the notion that someone wouldn't know they existed is hard to credit, especially since the first ones are pretty much in your face -- at least on the Exile side.  It's entirely possible on the Dominion side they are more hidden in those first three zones (before things come together more in Whitevale).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Thanks for the admission, since that's what we seem (at least, what I am) talking about.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Not seeing the problem (except that they aren't in the LFG tool- which I just found out they are changing).
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It depends on the faction you chose and the class. Wildstar also allows you to skip zones and certain quests/hub's. Having the communicator alert you is exactly what I was talking about earlier, unless you are into the storyline/lore and all that jazz you would not know. It's not clear enough and confuses a lot of newer players.
 
I do agree that Wilderrun and Malgrave are right in front of you, yet people still don't know what to do with them. It's a task that shows up in your quest list IF you clicked the npc. It's not automatically when it comes to shiphands and it's defiantly not on the "regular" leveling route/schedule.
 
There are plenty of people that don't know at 50 or at lower level that these instances exist. The only time people actually need those instances is the attunement process and that's for adventures/dungeons only. Regardless who's fault it is. 
 
Point is, as long as these instances are none rewarding (loot and exp wise) people wont use them. If the attunement process wouldn't force you to run adventures/dungeons we wouldn't have as many people complaining either, not a lot of people at the current state would run these. There's no point really unless you love to have an achievement. I do know that future patches will change that but we are talking about it right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A lot of the players who went into dungeons weren't ready for them, which is why they're working on the level 10 tutorial dungeon.
----
			
I missed a ton of shiphands and adventures while leveling. On my second toon, I ended up having to make a round of unlocking adventures to get started with them at cap. I don't like that aspect at all. It's not immersive and it's frustrating to group with someone only to realize they don't have something unlocked yet.
 
One of my minor (very minor) irritations with the game.
 
I'm pretty sure there are shiphands I never did on my main- but I'll do them when there are vet versions :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
However, I guess it's feasible that even given all that there's a way to miss them hence my dubious maybe.  I just think it takes being almost willfully unobservant.  Seriously, you cannot miss it in Algoroc.  Gigantic world destroying robot in a valley -- shiphand mission right in front of you.  How could anyone actually miss that?
----
			Actually, on the topic of things that are easily missed, Skullcano ranks up there near the top. I even knew Skullcano existed, and what level it unlocked, but when I hit that level and went to queue for it, it wasn't listed in the LFG at all. No explanation as to why. It wasn't until I went on the forums and saw people with similar problems that I learned you have to go back to Whitevale and physically jump on the little boat (if you didn't do it while leveling up through there) to have it show up. That's definitely something that could be improved.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The Rhinos in Genetic Archives. ^_^
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But I do agree with you! =) And we are working to create more of that content as well so that folks have more ways to learn and improve their character--without also removing the challenging content.
 
It's an oversimplification, but we have:
Easy:  World Story instances, Expeditions, Shiphands
Medium: Adventures
Hard: Dungeons
 
Raids: Raids
Hardcore: Phageborn Colossi
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Edit: One additional point that doesn't fit into the rest but fits into the theme of this thread.  The medal objectives are not well explained.  
----
			
Lots of things got responded to including itemisation.
 
But I'm just wondering when we'll start to see less trash in raids? I know you guys want us to call it base population, but in the end of the day, once you know how to kill it, it is still trash and it isn't rewarding. Killing it doesn't make us feel "Hell yeah, we did that", nor does it give us awesome drops. It's just a time sink, and things like clearing up to council are just extremely annoying(especially when learning it, meaning you need to clear that trash every night before getting to work, if it must be there, can't you at least make completing the challenge prevent respawns before it?)
 
Base population gets pretty dull pretty fast. I can wipe 30 times on a raid boss and keep coming back for more, but can we stop wasting our time on things that are in no way rewarding?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But I do agree with you! =) And we are working to create more of that content as well so that folks have more ways to learn and improve their character--without also removing the challenging content.
 
It's an oversimplification, but we have:
Easy:  World Story instances, Expeditions, Shiphands
Medium: Adventures
Hard: Dungeons
 
Raids: Raids
Hardcore: Phageborn Colossi
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Finally, a question for you:  why are many of the posts asking for easier dungeons completely ignoring other portions of group content while levelling--such as adventures and shiphands and expeditions, all of which are less challenging than the dungeons?
----
			
For what it's worth, I LOVE the idea of really challenging solo/shiphand type content, especially if it used some of the existing dungeon/raid boss mechanics.
 
Wave dodging, jump avoiding, telegraph dropping, tornado running solo content would be fun and provide a place to practice where you don't mess up other people with your mistakes.
 
But even if it wasn't that and you just had hard shiphands, that would be great.	
----
			
You really shouldn't assume that difficulty is the reason people quit.  Completely redesigning WoW  has left that game watered-down and patronizing to its player base - it is designed for the lowest common denominator now and is losing subs at a frightening pace.
 
So, you would assume people would want that challenge in a game again, after all, that's why a lot of people quit WoW.  So why not stick around?  I think it's a mistake to assume difficulty is the reason people have quit.  It wasn't the reason for me, or for anyone else that I know.  It was about other things... they didn't like the AMP system or PvP... a few quit because the rewards just aren't good enough.  I agree with Zeidrich at the top of this page in that the reward incentives are not good enough.  But there are a lot of fundamental design issues with the game... the framework is there, it just needs improving and polishing. 
 
In a world 10 years after the launch of World of Warcraft, people want a game to be excellent on launch.  People have VERY little patience for incomplete MMOs these days. People do not want to stick around, waiting for the game to improve, paying a sub the entire time, only to be burnt, when they could be playing something else in the meantime.  This uncertainty really turns people off playing.  People just do not have patience for new MMOs after playing established MMOs for so long.  It HAS to come out of the gate near perfect, or not at all. 
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
		Language	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Totally valid feedback. I'll pass this along to that team. I have two on my housing plot and really enjoyed them both, but they are perhaps a bit too hidden from players.
Which expedition and which parts of it were so difficult? What was hard about it?
----
			
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
In my idea, the easy, medium, and hard dungeons, adventures, and shiphands are all different maps. There should be super hard solo content, there should be super hard adventures, and there should be easier dungeons. I realize this is a ton of work but I think this is what the future of WS should look like. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That would be significantly more work to actually make them feel unique from one another.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 Completely redesigning WoW  has left that game watered-down and patronizing to its player base - it is designed for the lowest common denominator now 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This way, Carbine can also get rid of the medal system which I think hurts the game more than it helps it. 
----
			We have some improvements to the medal system coming that we'll be ready to talk about soon =)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Which does remind me (as a side note) as an ex GW2 player....having the same dungeon but with varying difficulties actually does work and does not trivialize content as long as the rewards match based on the difficulty. Fractals in GW2 is a system of dungeons that scale up in difficulty. The system works and was actually pretty fun. Level 1 was a walk in the park whereas level 30+ was very challenging.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And people in other threads wonder why the rest of the gamesphere is having such a good time celebrating Wildstar's problems...Reading stuff like this, I really can't blame them. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem is that it's boring as hell to see the same stuff over and over, only a little harder, then a little harder, etc.  It doesn't make the game feel bigger.  It makes it feel like you have nothing new to see except the same content that hits harder.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We have some improvements to the medal system coming that we'll be ready to talk about soon =)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I honestly can't see any downsides to this idea. Literally everyone, from the noob to the hardcore, wins.....except for TimeTravel as his work will triple  :P 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you feel tired after doing this....then its too hard.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why? Having everything fire on all cylinders and winning is a GOOD feeling. As I recounted before, I remember running a pug with a new player who just hit 20 and his first reaction to Bladewind was "My heart is thumping out of my chest!" and he meant this in a good way. He probably WAS tired after the full run, but I'll bet he couldn't wait to go back.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah, my first STL at 20 was adrenaline, nail biting awesome.  If they nerf that stuff, it will be like killing a puppy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If anything, this consistent experience is what keeps me loving this game. First STL, first SC, first Vet STL, first Vet KV, first Vet SSM, first miniboss kill, first X-89. The thrill is there over and over again, and the tuning for each of these seems perfect. There are some great, great fights in this game.
 
I don't have first vet SC in there because the groups I've done it with cheese the last fight :(  I've tried it a few times legit and it was a really, REALLY fun fight, but after a few tries everyone just wants to get the boss down. Looks like they are fixing it in the patch, so looking forward to it. Which kind of makes my point- when things get too easy, you lose the thrill.
 
And normal KV didn't get that "first thrill" feel for me because I was having too much fun in STL to run it at level. By the time I got around to KV, I was hitting too hard and the encounters were too easy. But getting Drokk down on vet was great the first time :)
 
I'm not sure I got a "thrill" out of WotW when I did it for the fist time, but I had a lot of fun. I thought it was interesting and creative, and it has withstood the test of time for me. The other adventures, less so, but I still like them from time to time and I hope they keep trying stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Speaking of WotW, my first couple of times through there I couldn't tell if the enemy nameds were actually players or not.  The AI was so batshit infuriating that I could have sworn they were players.  Wonder if they'll do that more frequently at some point because they behaved nothing like a typical NPC.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But wouldn't it be the same as any mmo really? Even in this game, you do the same stuff over and over again (just that the difficulty is always hiked up). The purpose for having different difficulties for each dungeon is that those less skilled, or just starting out, can get into those dungeons. Once they get better, then they should have no reason to run the easier modes unless there is a drop they want from there or are helping friends with it. 
 
Easy mode - Anyone can get into them with crappy gear but the rewards are in line with the time spent and difficulty.
Normal mode - Should be easier than the current iterations of current dungeons. If you feel tired after doing this....then its too hard.
Hardcore mode - crank the crap out of it and give rewards that suit it. Like guarantee X number of epics and more gold at the end.
 
I know TimeTravel is saying that they are improving the star system...but you can get rid of it with this. Easy = Bronze, Normal = Silver, Hardcore = Gold. The reason i think the star system is harmful to the game is because you are pitting the players against each other if mistakes are made. Unless the improvements TT is talking about is getting rid of the timer and deaths penalties....then it will continue to be a harmful system. With the system I'm proposing, players will be much more forgiving of each other when a mistake is made. Right now, if the expectation is for a gold run, if a player dies......there goes gold for the group, players get frustrated, and doesn't end in good taste. 
 
I honestly can't see any downsides to this idea. Literally everyone, from the noob to the hardcore, wins.....except for TimeTravel as his work will triple  :P 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If anything, this consistent experience is what keeps me loving this game. First STL, first SC, first Vet STL, first Vet KV, first Vet SSM, first miniboss kill, first X-89. The thrill is there over and over again, and the tuning for each of these seems perfect. There are some great, great fights in this game.
 
I don't have first vet SC in there because the groups I've done it with cheese the last fight :(  I've tried it a few times legit and it was a really, REALLY fun fight, but after a few tries everyone just wants to get the boss down. Looks like they are fixing it in the patch, so looking forward to it. Which kind of makes my point- when things get too easy, you lose the thrill.
 
And normal KV didn't get that "first thrill" feel for me because I was having too much fun in STL to run it at level. By the time I got around to KV, I was hitting too hard and the encounters were too easy. But getting Drokk down on vet was great the first time :)
 
I'm not sure I got a "thrill" out of WotW when I did it for the fist time, but I had a lot of fun. I thought it was interesting and creative, and it has withstood the test of time for me. The other adventures, less so, but I still like them from time to time and I hope they keep trying stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Unfortunately, I've had the same experience with Mordecai Redmoon. I'd like to do him legitimately but the group usually gives up after the same guy runs into lasers 3 pulls in a row. I think the chance to fix this is over. The ledge culture is strong and the need to get this dungeon done no longer really exists in strength so people won't generally take the time to learn the boss correctly.    
----
			
Shiphands-Adventures-Expeditions
 
I didn't know about Expeditions, or what Shiphands were till this thread came around.  I saw Captain Milo, but I assumed he was a gatekeeper for a distant zone.  On a lark I decided to give it a whirl, enjoyed it and hope there are many more to come.  I think here is where WS can throw a wider net to capture the interest of "the casual player" by
 
Making Shiphands have different difficulty levels with increasing rewards, scaling all the way up to level cap and a "Veteran" option.  
Adventures being both solo and group friendly.  Content scales with the number of participants, with 5 man teams having the most challenge/reward and a "Veteran" option as well somewhat like what CoH had.
Before someone nerdrages on me with "No!!!  Adventures are 5 man only Newberto!!" there is flat out zero harm in giving players a range of choices there.  I don't know squat about Expeditions, but they sound like another layer of content that can show a lot of promise based on what little I do know about them.  Sadly, not even the wiki has any information on them, suggesting to me this is yet another bit of information that the old guard takes for granted everyone knowing about and creating a partition between new arrivals and the OG.
 
 
Dungeons Are Fine (?)
 
I got mixed feelings about this topic, but some posts got me to saying ok, fine, I won't advocate making the Dungeons easier, but I will give you the view from the outside looking in.  TBH, I haven't been in a single Dungeon yet, nothing has popped for me while being in que because the population is so top heavy.   So on the one hand I'm told not to wait to level 50 (where the vast majority of the game's population is) before running dungeons, yet I can't get a dungeon que to pop.  Anyway I like to play tanks and healers, I already have a habit about reading up on that sort of content so that I have a idea of what I'm going to face.  The turn offs in discussing dungeon difficulties in chat that I've seen is I would state I'm new to the game and looking for advice and several times I've been told before I run Dungeons I need to know:
each dungeon's fights and have memorized them in detail before going in,
how to play my class by the Dungeon's standard or "I'm a baddie and be kicked after the first fight"
know how to play other classes so that I don't mess them up
be properly geared up before going in or people will assume I'm a "WoW baby" wanting to be carried.
you got to do all this or you'll be one shot killed and wind up blacklisted (whoever thinks this is "good entertainment" you need to get out more).
I totally get that Raids require commitment on that scale, but Dungeons???  One very pleasant fellow's feedback ended with a very memorable quote;  "Yeah man, you better practice your class and hit youtube to get your dungeon diploma".  Really?  That's what WS wants from me? A "diploma"?  :blink:  I took his advice in the spirit it was given, but notice the tone here: blacklisted--memorize in detail before playing--wow-baby, etc.  Thats the turn off many newcomers like myself are being told! And that's what was ringing in my ears when i entered this thread and felt the Dungeon design philosophy was a poor one.
 
Tuning out the fanboi rants of how WS was perfect and that any change would result in their leaving, I focused in on the those posts where some good points made that made me reconsider, basically WS Dungeons are not PUG tolerant and are a teaching/funnel  mechanism for Raids.  Since I am a burnt out former Raider, maybe I should write off Dungeons too?  I won't lie, that's very disappointing to consider, I can't help but feel it makes better sense for the pre-Raid funnel to be part of the Veteran difficulty setting and that its a pity they can't be more tolerant of PUGs.  Still, for now I'll accept the default difficulties as being "mostly fine".  That said, can you see how the above advice turns off most newcomers to the game?  Its hearing stuff like this that makes the barrier to entry seem absurdly high, and just responding with "nut up or leave" is why the population is so small.
 
In conclusion:  A few select posts shifted my stance and made me realize I have to belong to a leveling guild and PUGs are not a supported play style, a pity IMHO.  Even so, population is the key indicator of a title's health, it doesn't have to have WoW numbers, but WS's numbers are weak.  So maybe Dungeons are fine, but a lot more "casual" options has to be added because you're already seeing signs of how the population decline is affecting the frequency & future of your Drops.  Knee-jerk rants of "WS IS PERFECT!!  Change it and I leave!!" will only result in the game choking on the elitism it already has way too much of.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shiphands-Adventures-Expeditions
 
I didn't know about Expeditions, or what Shiphands were till this thread came around.  I saw Captain Milo, but I assumed he was a gatekeeper for a distant zone.  On a lark I decided to give it a whirl, enjoyed it and hope there are many more to come.  I think here is where WS can throw a wider net to capture the interest of "the casual player" by
 
Making Shiphands have different difficulty levels with increasing rewards, scaling all the way up to level cap and a "Veteran" option.  
Adventures being both solo and group friendly.  Content scales with the number of participants, with 5 man teams having the most challenge/reward and a "Veteran" option as well somewhat like what CoH had.
Before someone nerdrages on me with "No!!!  Adventures are 5 man only Newberto!!" there is flat out zero harm in giving players a range of choices there.  I don't know squat about Expeditions, but they sound like another layer of content that can show a lot of promise based on what little I do know about them.  Sadly, not even the wiki has any information on them, suggesting to me this is yet another bit of information that the old guard takes for granted everyone knowing about and creating a partition between new arrivals and the OG.
 
.........
 
In conclusion:  A few select posts shifted my stance and made me realize I have to belong to a leveling guild and PUGs are not a supported play style, a pity IMHO.  Even so, population is the key indicator of a title's health, it doesn't have to have WoW numbers, but WS's numbers are weak.  So maybe Dungeons are fine, but a lot more "casual" options has to be added because you're already seeing signs of how the population decline is affecting the frequency & future of your Drops.  Knee-jerk rants of "WS IS PERFECT!!  Change it and I leave!!" will only result in the game choking on the elitism it already has way too much of.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well written, thank you for taking the time to put this post together.  A couple of comments :)
 
I do believe that veteran shiphands are in the works, and shiphands are being added to the queue.
There are more solo instances coming with the new story stuff in the drop.  It's not solo versions of current adventures (many of which simply wouldn't work mechanically with a smaller group size), but new, solo instanced content.
Expeditions are definitely an area of the game that could use some better advertising.
 
On dungeons, one of the things this thread has made me realize is that the community needs to do a much better job of supporting players who don't have access to a guild that currently runs the normal mode dungeons.
 
So, one of the things that my guild will be doing, starting in a couple of weeks, is running "Public groups" one or two nights a week.  We'll pick a dungeon, and post the run in advance on our server forums, and then build a group or two out of the server forum to go run it.  This way, new players or players whose guild isn't doing these things can still get a chance to do the content, and do it with a group that's going to be more forgiving and tolerant than your average PUG.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why? Having everything fire on all cylinders and winning is a GOOD feeling. As I recounted before, I remember running a pug with a new player who just hit 20 and his first reaction to Bladewind was "My heart is thumping out of my chest!" and he meant this in a good way. He probably WAS tired after the full run, but I'll bet he couldn't wait to go back.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This exists already. 
 
Easy mode: Go play a normal mode dungeon rallied down. A lvl 50 rallied down is still crazy overpowered in normal dungeons. If you want to solo a dungeon, play a normal lvl 20 dungeon as a level 50. You can probably do skullcano solo too, but it would be much harder.    
 
Normal mode: Just play veteran dungeons. Complete no side quests/objectives.
 
Hardcore: get gold medals. Gold medals are by no means easy. Some of the challenges are just mean (swordmaiden being the worst - hardest challenge is on the last boss. You do the whole instance only to fail there, it hurts) I would say this is certainly "cranked the crap out of."   
 
Why would players be any more forgiving if a mistake was made?  If the expectation is gold medal as you say, having different "modes" isn't going to change that. That player is still going to want to do the hardcore version. The only thing you've suggested is a change in naming conventions. You want easier dungeons, queue for normals. When I was first going through dungeons back in May, I didn't even try veteran swordmaiden until I had beat normal mode. Do that if you want something easier. I think your real problem is that you've got no one to do things on your difficulty level with. My suggestion is to make friends and play a support role (especially tank). Introduce yourself as not particularly good and that you want practice. Perhaps you'll run into like minded folks.     
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Easy - At lvl 50, why would I want to run a regular mode dungeon....ever? If they gave lvl 50 rewards then I will agree with you that this can be considered the easy mode.....though it might just be too easy.
----
			
I really haven't come across many people who are upset if you fail gold (particularly in dungeons), since the very beginning of the game. Unless they were specifically looking for people to do gold runs with (i.e. through a chat pug). 
 
Even when we go to do gold attempts with my guild, we know that that's what they are, and usually have a good laugh about the ways we might fail them... I remember I was certainly very frustrated with some of the elitism that was happening at the beginning of the game, but recently I've been mostly impressed with the community and their expectations (in game, not necessarily on the forums). The nice thing the medal system is that we can attempt to make it "hardcore" but we bring a variety of people through for the fun and practice. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just pointing out that normal mode Sanctuary of the Swordmaiden *is* a level 50 dungeon ;)
 
Plus, there are decor/customization rewards from normal mode dungeons that are worthwhile at any level.  I *finally* got a pirate hat for my scanbot the other night - from a normal mode KV run.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The turn offs in discussing dungeon difficulties in chat that I've seen is I would state I'm new to the game and looking for advice and several times I've been told before I run Dungeons I need to know:
each dungeon's fights and have memorized them in detail before going in,
how to play my class by the Dungeon's standard or "I'm a baddie and be kicked after the first fight"
know how to play other classes so that I don't mess them up
be properly geared up before going in or people will assume I'm a "WoW baby" wanting to be carried.
you got to do all this or you'll be one shot killed and wind up blacklisted (whoever thinks this is "good entertainment" you need to get out more).
I totally get that Raids require commitment on that scale, but Dungeons???  One very pleasant fellow's feedback ended with a very memorable quote;  "Yeah man, you better practice your class and hit youtube to get your dungeon diploma".  Really?  That's what WS wants from me? A "diploma"?  :blink:  I took his advice in the spirit it was given, but notice the tone here: blacklisted--memorize in detail before playing--wow-baby, etc.  Thats the turn off many newcomers like myself are being told! And that's what was ringing in my ears when i entered this thread and felt the Dungeon design philosophy was a poor one.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
dungeons dont have to be wow ez. they should be changed to something more manageable for the actual level they are intended for. as it is there are quite a few mobs that have 2 or so interrupt armor in a lvl range where nobody can tier 4 their stun to actually interrupt in a manageable way for people to get the interrupts off. at least 3 people in the group need to be on point within 2-3 seconds of each other . in a pug that is not very ez at all. much less the other mechanics of the fight. people almost have to be in ts to get it off and alot of people leveling dont have the addons to see the cast in the first place. this is meant to be a leveling dungeon that increases difficulty slowly over the levels to ultimately reach vet dungeon difficulty. 
 
as it stands there is no curve. its only a right angle.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I agree it IS a good feeling. Regular mode KV is what sold me into the game during beta.....BUT its only awesome when you do it the first couple of times. After that, the difficulty just gets in the way of enjoyment when you just want to have a nice relaxing (and short) play session at the end of a long day.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But if what you really want is a relaxing, short play session, won't adventures fit the bill?
----
			
One more thought- after I leveled from 20-26 tanking STL, I never set foot in another dungeon until 50, save one run through WOTW. The minimal xp for adventures made them not worth it, and by the time I got to SC I didn't want to mess with remembering how to tank again.
 
If dungeons and adventures gave better rewards I would have tanked them all the way up. I think this change alone would help the pugging community out and be helpful for new players.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I would say the same thing about Siege of Tempest Refuge, but that adventure hates me:  hey here's a tank.  Oh and a bunker buster.  Oh and an artillery barrage.  Some days I think it should be named "Last Stand at Tempest Refuge."
----
			
I have done a vast amount of Siege in PUGs and guild and cross-guild (Accords) runs.  It's not that hard IF you have a plan and stick to it.  The moment someone goes off the reservation because they either think they know better or can't be bothered with listening, your chances decrease dramatically.  Had one largely new PUG group and I explained things, however one DPS warrior decided to roam.  On my esper I can cover an entire entrance without backup.  If it starts to go pear shaped, I have to tools and judgement to withdraw and bring to the tank and heals at central.  Warrior decides he's going to help me out, however in the process left the OTHER DPS who was not nearly as well geared as he or experienced in the lurch.  Cascade failure due to one guy who thought he knew better.
 
Otherwise, it's really pretty great.  Also helps to know some of the patterns (e.g. if you get specialists, be prepared for a bunker buster next -- not 100% of the time but a good 75%.)
 
Have never seen that blasted psyblade drop though.  The loot tables wound me deeply.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
and speaking of leveling... the grouping up while leveling and at max is so penalized that it is almost always better to solo than it is to just group up. you know it is a mmo . meaning massively MULTIPLAYER.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well written, thank you for taking the time to put this post together.  A couple of comments :)
 
I do believe that veteran shiphands are in the works, and shiphands are being added to the queue.
There are more solo instances coming with the new story stuff in the drop.  It's not solo versions of current adventures (many of which simply wouldn't work mechanically with a smaller group size), but new, solo instanced content.
Expeditions are definitely an area of the game that could use some better advertising.
 
On dungeons, one of the things this thread has made me realize is that the community needs to do a much better job of supporting players who don't have access to a guild that currently runs the normal mode dungeons.
 
So, one of the things that my guild will be doing, starting in a couple of weeks, is running "Public groups" one or two nights a week.  We'll pick a dungeon, and post the run in advance on our server forums, and then build a group or two out of the server forum to go run it.  This way, new players or players whose guild isn't doing these things can still get a chance to do the content, and do it with a group that's going to be more forgiving and tolerant than your average PUG.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This isn't my experience. I find running both KV and STL quite relaxing.
 
But if what you really want is a relaxing, short play session, won't adventures fit the bill?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But everyone has different experiences. So that's why I'm trying to propose some sort of system that can cater to all types of players. 
 
This is one of the things that I'm trying to get TT to realize. Adventures, by design, are different play styles than dungeons are. If I want to play an easy and fast dungeon, there isn't any....and if I want to play a really challenging adventure....there also isn't any. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So that's why I'm trying to propose some sort of system that can cater to all types of players. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is completely valid and unfortunate. There is NO reason based on the dungeons alone that it has to be like this, but it is something that has developed. Basically, people want dungeons without wipes, which requires everyone knowing what they are doing. This is sad, and Carbine needs to figure out a way to address this if they can, because it's preventing people from running dungeons that will really enjoy them. I keep hearing this idea that the normal mode dungeons are hard, and they just aren't AS LONG AS PEOPLE TAKE THE TIME TO EXPLAIN THEM.
 
As I've said before, I did STL a lot leveling my tanking alt and I had a very high success rate with random pugs, many who didn't know anything about dungeons. I almost made macros for my explanations of the fights. But even with full explanations of what people needed to do, we ran them in under an hour most times. Very few times was I unable to be successful.
 
There was this one pug where when I stopped to explain to a player who had no idea what he was doing (totally new) I got "yelled at" by a dps who said I needed to keep pulling. He didn't have the patience for me to explain the pulls. So I bailed and went to play on my main (I was the tank, so I'm sure they had to wait a while). Yeah, that probably messed up their run, but while I have infinite patience for someone trying to learn, I have none for people who make the game miserable.
 
I'll say this- if you want to run through some normal mode dungeons and you are going to be on the PVE US Megaserver, look me up. I'll tank any of them you want so you can experience and learn them.
 
Sadly, people who are guilded are getting a much better experience with this stuff- I know we run stuff all the time as a guild, though most of us are at cap now and not running the normals.
 
It is largely the community that is causing the problems here, not the content. I suppose that Carbine could nerf the content to make it wipe proof, but that would be removing the soul of what makes the dungeons fun :(  I hope they can come up with a solution that encourages people to pug and teach new players the ropes outside of guilds.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I wish more people would run normal Sanctuary. It's actually a really good step to help prepare you for vets. It's unfortunate that it got overlooked because of the way gear progression currently works.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I understand, but they aren't going to make everyone happy, and they only have limited resources.
 
However, they are taking steps towards getting more people into the fantastic content they've already created. I think that is the best bet and right approach (and the quickest- you won't get anything new or re-tuned any time soon).
 
Because yeah, I too want lower queue times. It's too slow right now- we need more people in the dungeons. Better rewards, daily quests, more xp/elder gems, better training- all of that is on the right track.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And because it is at least 45 minutes with no wipes.  That instance should have been split up.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just pointing out that normal mode Sanctuary of the Swordmaiden *is* a level 50 dungeon ;)
 
Plus, there are decor/customization rewards from normal mode dungeons that are worthwhile at any level.  I *finally* got a pirate hat for my scanbot the other night - from a normal mode KV run.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think just telling them to do the regular mode dungeons is the answer....because you are telling them, in not a very subtle way, that they are not good enough.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I didn't know that. They should just make a regular level 50 version for all dungeons then. I feel like if I had to go back and do the other lower level dungeons, that I would be regressing in my "progression".
 
Make a reg level 50 version (except swordmaiden obviously)  for all dungeons and then leave the current dungeons as is, then improve the medal system so that it doesn't count time nor deaths, and I think that should solve most problems instead of my original idea of having 3 different difficulty settings. Also split all dungeons into two independent queue-able paths. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Except no one runs the level 50 normal mode dungeon there already is. I don't think making easier versions of the dungeons (and again, there already are easier version of the dungeons) is going to bring people in.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Right now the system is encouraging this type of behavior. "What? wtf man how you die? GG noob *disband"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Except no one runs the level 50 normal mode dungeon there already is. I don't think making easier versions of the dungeons (and again, there already are easier version of the dungeons) is going to bring people in.
----