144088-ok-i-think-its-time-we-had-a-little-talk-about-need-vs-greed

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If a fluff item drops in a dungeon, like décor, just roll Need on the thing if you want it.  Ok?  Let's stop pretending there's some widespread but unspoken rule of propriety surrounding the fluff items in dungeons.  Last I checked, there's no rule against rolling Need on fluff items and if you want an equal chance of getting it, fine, just roll Need.  But, don't sit there and say, "man I really want that, but I'm going to hit Greed and hope everyone else does the same thing" and then get pissed off at people for rolling Need and throw around BS like "that's frowned upon".  Sorry, but that's just dumb, there's no real nice way to say it.
 
I promise you, like cross my heart and hope to die, promise you that if we both roll Need on a fluff item and the RNG Gods command that you receive it instead of me, then I will be happy for you.  I hope it looks good on your housing plot or nets you some Plat if you can sell it on the AH.
 
 
Now, for gear, please try to show some common courtesy.  If you're in a role that requires either Dps or Support gear to be effective, and you roll Need on an item that is for the opposite build, then you're probably taking a legitimate upgrade from someone who happens to be in that role at the time. 
 
That's fine, the game obviously allows that, but just know that rolling Need on an Off-spec item just for it to sit in your inventory indefinitely when someone actually NEEDED and would have used it, is not necessarily conducive to a good player-to-player relationship.  Make sense?
 
Can we try to establish something of a common understanding when it comes to these things?	
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@Night Head
 
It's ok, my wall-o-text more or less said what you were saying anyway.  Honestly, if you want something, just roll Need and let the numbers decide who gets what that run.
 
I just had someone jump on me because I rolled Need on a décor item, then turned around and tried to tell the group that it was OK for them to roll Need on something that another player obviously would have used.  I figured I would share my irritation with the hypocrisy.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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I don't care about your wall of text i only came here for the title and here is what i have to say on the matter:
1. I need for anything i deem that i need.
2. I greed on anything that i deem i do not need.
3. I don't give the slightest sh!t about what the rest of the party or the universe itself thinks about my choices on the matter.
Why? because it is clearly my damn business what i roll for, when i roll for, how i roll for it, etc... thats why.
You have your roll and your own luck, i have mine, i owe you nothing you owe me nothing - done business.	
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Can we try to establish something of a common understanding when it comes to these things?
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@Night Head
 
It's ok, my wall-o-text more or less said what you were saying anyway.  Honestly, if you want something, just roll Need and let the numbers decide who gets what that run.
 
I just had someone jump on me because I rolled Need on a décor item, then turned around and tried to tell me that it was OK for another person to roll Need on something that another player obviously could have used.  I figured I would share my irritation with the hypocrisy.
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			Ok, well, I don't think I would go that far...  It is just a game.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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			This is why guild groups always > pugs.  No honor or civility among random pple.	
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If a fluff item drops in a dungeon, like décor, just roll Need on the thing if you want it.  Ok?
 
Let's stop pretending there's some widespread but unspoken rule of propriety surrounding the fluff items in dungeons. 
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I'm not going to say if i'm for or against what you are suggesting. But i will say that you should not even bother to convince the playerbase to change their ways. 
 
1) not everybody goes to the forums
 
2) people that are on the forums arent all going to listen to you
 
3) you would be much better off coming up with a solution that the devs can implement instead of the players. If you can put together a solid argument and put it into a suggestion thread *maybe* the devs will agree and put the change into the game.
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You mean like disable either the Need or Greed button for fluff items so it becomes "roll or pass"?
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			They really should change it, when I did one of my first adventures the other day I was really surprised to see how much stuff you can Need on. Gear is the obvious thing, but Crafting Mats, Runecrafting Mats and even -Decor-?! No one -needs- decor, but the fact that it's possible to Need on it makes for an awkward situation. Do you assume that everyone should roll Greed as some sort of unwritten rule, and click Greed? Should you assume someone is going to be selfish and be the only one to click Need, thus guarenteeing they get it? Is it even selfish to be the only one to pick Need since Carbine added that option? Just makes me feel anxious regardless of what happens.
			
				
	Edited October 18, 2015 by Minsc9	
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I don't care about your wall of text i only came here for the title and here is what i have to say on the matter:
1. I need for anything i deem that i need.
2. I greed on anything that i deem i do not need.
3. I don't give the slightest sh!t about what the rest of the party or the universe itself thinks about my choices on the matter.
Why? because it is clearly my damn business what i roll for, when i roll for, how i roll for it, etc... thats why.
You have your roll and your own luck, i have mine, i owe you nothing you owe me nothing - done business.
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Exactly mate, but sometimes there are those princesses that feel that you owe them something...
At those funny times i want to pull out a big-ass shotgun.. and blast their damn brains all across the wall.. very violently.​
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			I would just really like to be able to gear my character in dungeons without the healer getting my dps loot :( I don't really care whether they roll need or not though lol	
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I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.
I would also add runes, signs and similar to the "just press Need" group.
 
On crafting mats tho, I am a bit divided. I do not roll Need on mats that are not part of my crafting. I like getting them for some extra gold, but I don't do it. I don't care if others do tho. It's more a matter of principle.
 
PS: There is no difference in the chance of getting an item if everyone rolls need or everyone rolls greed.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Ahkronn	
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I would just really like to be able to gear my character in dungeons without the healer getting my dps loot :( 
 
I don't really care whether they roll need or not though lol
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Ultimately, the flaws in the loot system are simply something that has to be accepted when we choose to PUG.  You can encourage people to be polite and reasonable, and it will be good when they do, but you can't enforce it.  Trying to will only result in frustration and anger when the unspoken rules are broken, and they WILL be broken.  Random groups of ppl just don't have that trust level.
 
I'm not even sure that some kind of "common understanding" is even possible.  You are not playing their game; what gives you the right to choose what they "need" or not?  Should someone who has been running a dungeon for weeks just to unlock a particular skin doesn't get to roll, but you do?  Sorry, but you are not playing their game for them, you don't get to make that choice.
 
Short of redesigning the game to another loot system (example: mirrored loot such as GW2, where veryone gets their own drops), that's going to be the bottom line.  Group with guildies you trust, or be prepared to deal with losing rolls to people you disagree with.	
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Ultimately, the flaws in the loot system are simply something that has to be accepted when we choose to PUG. You can encourage people to be polite and reasonable, and it will be good when they do, but you can't enforce it. Trying to will only result in frustration and anger when the unspoken rules are broken, and they WILL be broken. Random groups of ppl just don't have that trust level.
 
I'm not even sure that some kind of "common understanding" is even possible. You are not playing their game; what gives you the right to choose what they "need" or not? Should someone who has been running a dungeon for weeks just to unlock a particular skin doesn't get to roll, but you do? Sorry, but you are not playing their game for them, you don't get to make that choice.
 
Short of redesigning the game to another loot system (example: mirrored loot such as GW2, where veryone gets their own drops), that's going to be the bottom line. Group with guildies you trust, or be prepared to deal with losing rolls to people you disagree with.
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I would just really like to be able to gear my character in dungeons without the healer getting my dps loot :( 
 
I don't really care whether they roll need or not though lol
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A lot of people will say that nowadays with the ability to easily change to an alternate spec that they're entitled to that loot just as much as you are. 
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When I queue up, I can tick 2 of the role boxes at once.  If I tick "Tank" and also "DPS", then that's an advantage to *everyone* because it means there are more tanks (or healers) in the queue.  If I have to queue as DPS in order to get my DPS gear, then your queue times are going to shoot up.
 
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			Need on everything except gear, which is Need > Greed. That's the only fair way. 	
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I don't care about your wall of text i only came here for the title and here is what i have to say on the matter:
1. I need for anything i deem that i need.
2. I greed on anything that i deem i do not need.
3. I don't give the slightest sh!t about what the rest of the party or the universe itself thinks about my choices on the matter.
Why? because it is clearly my damn business what i roll for, when i roll for, how i roll for it, etc... thats why.
You have your roll and your own luck, i have mine, i owe you nothing you owe me nothing - done business.
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The tick boxes are there for everybody...but that doesnt mean everybody is going to use it.  In most MMOs i can play a decent enough tank, healer or dps.  But there are people out there who *cant* do that and all they can do is queue up for that one role.  I've had lots of opportunities to use my position as a tank to roll on dps gear that i wanted but i dont roll on it.  I'll either ask first before i roll or i'll just queue as a dps and to hell with how long the dps queue times are.  I'm not so hard up for loot that i'll screw someone else over, even a stranger, for a piece of loot.  And if i want something that bad, want it guaranteed to go to me, or dont want to wait a long time, or whatever then i'll form a premade with friends or guildies.
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This is why guild groups always > pugs.  No honor or civility among random pple.
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so long as u dont need items from people to salvage them later then i am fine with this ... if you do roll need for items for salvage (unless explicitly agreed on with the group then that is bad) 
 
 
If you are the only one of your gear type in the group then rolling need is sneaky but doesnt hurt the others either as they could technically do the same...
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I said as long as u use the item for ur gear then its fine , learn to read, if however u get the item and then destroy it then you are a ninja looter and deserve to be ignored by everyone ]
 
 
now if you would like to calm down, take a chill pill and get your head out of your *cupcake*, that would be good
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It's not up to you or anyone to decide what i need/greed for, i have my one shot (just like the rest of the party) at going for either greed or need and it is up to ME to pick one or the other.
The rest is up to your luck... the system will give the item to whoever won... i owe NOTHING to ANYONE.
Just like they owe nothing to me, understand this you hypocrites...
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And i say it is my damn business what i will use it for, which you time and time again fail to comprehend...
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I said as long as u use the item for ur gear then its fine , learn to read, if however u get the item and then destroy it then you are a ninja looter and deserve to be ignored by everyone ]
 
 
now if you would like to calm down, take a chill pill and get your head out of your *cupcake*, that would be good
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And i say it is my damn business what i will use it for, which you time and time again fail to comprehend...
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Some of you people complicate it too much. Simple guideline:
 
Will the item/gear be used and is the gear piece an upgrade?
Yes - Need is ok
No - Greed.
 
There's not much more too it. Anything else is just You bringing a problem into the group. Needing on things you not really going to use, or if you're going to sell it is just being a prick. If you're going to use the Decor, go right ahead and need. Same with crafting materials. Also ok if you use both Support and Assault specs, because some of us do actually do both, and limiting people because some of you do not, is just loot whoring as well in reverse. As soon it's about money - Greed.
 
So don't be a douche, or else you risk getting kicked from the group.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Alysion	
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you wont have a fun time in this game unless you change your behaviour when raiding.
Noone cares what you do either unless you destroy the fun of others.
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			So what is the accepted norm for the group's healer or tank.  Can they need on dps gear, which they will use as soon as the dungeon ends and they go back to soloing?	
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I fail to understand 
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I fail to understand what it wrong with my "behavior" and what it has to do with loot..
And do not worry this is fine, i care for my own fun first and i don't see any reason to destroy my own fun only so that i can keep the fun of others safe and sound.
If their fun is destroyed because i was luckier than they were on the rolls then they can blame their sh!tty luck, it has nothing to do with me.
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So what is the accepted norm for the group's healer or tank.  Can they need on dps gear, which they will use as soon as the dungeon ends and they go back to soloing?
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Some of you people complicate it too much. Simple guideline:
 
Will the item/gear be used and is the gear piece an upgrade?
Yes - Need is ok
No - Greed.
 
There's not much more too it. Anything else is just You bringing a problem into the group. Needing on things you not really going to use, or if you're going to sell it is just being a prick. If you're going to use the Decor, go right ahead and need. Same with crafting materials. Also ok if you use both Support and Assault specs, because some of us do actually do both, and limiting people because some of you do not, is just loot whoring as well in reverse. As soon it's about money - Greed.
 
So don't be a douche, or else you risk getting kicked from the group.
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yes you do
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For that there is class-lock on some loot by default, i don't see any problem.
And btw so i'm being a prick for wanting to sell the item to buy my own piece? ook.
I see you hypocrites breed like maggots everywhere...  need to ask chua buddies to get me a flamethrower there are some parasites to take care of...
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Go on, enlighten me.. oh wisest of men...  :lol:
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It's about respect towards other people. The general rule of thumb is that you can do whatever when you're solo. But as soon as you're in a group you got to have some respect towards others, and same thing apply for others towards you. As soon as someone breaks that, shit is going to fly eventually. If you're in a guild group with that attitude the guild will probably kick you out. So without respect you're not going to last long. Your fun can also make others lose theirs. Dont be that guy. Show some respect.
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Yes, a prick. Why? Because your greed takes over and you want all for yourself and do not care about others. People have been kicked for less. If you're Greedy, you pick "Greed". It's pretty straight forward and simple. Obvious, actually.
 
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. i just don't get it.
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just leave him be guys/grills. he does not get it.
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on another completely separate topic:
 
anyone know how to ignore a person on the forums? no one here just convenient to ask 	
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This is disappointing but not unexpected.
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When I queue up, I can tick 2 of the role boxes at once. If I tick "Tank" and also "DPS", then that's an advantage to *everyone* because it means there are more tanks (or healers) in the queue. If I have to queue as DPS in order to get my DPS gear, then your queue times are going to shoot up.
 
Regardless of whether you agree that everyone has a right to all gear they can use (as I do), restricting rolls will only be shooting yourself in the foot when it comes time to actually queue up.
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If they want my respect they should earn it first yes?
Always puzzled me irl as well when ppl expect you to respect them yet did nothing to earn that respect... funny.
Besides i don't think this has anything to do with respect, you're just a dude with other dudes in a party and you all came here for loot, what in blazes does respect has to do with this?
And why in blazes should i prioritize respecting some dudes i don't even know who did nothing to earn that respect to boot, higher than my own happiness?
I still don't get it. I mean it's not really a train where i often give my seat to old people because i see they need it.. it's a game and when you run a dungeon you give the same amount of effort as everybody else they ain't really old people, disabled, or weak.... and you all have the same amount of luck as well.. i just don't get it.
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			I can imagine the *cupcake* storm that this will cause in raids ... ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahahhaa...... breathe in ..... ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...... cough cough cough....
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Genoshock	
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If they want my respect they should earn it first yes?
Always puzzled me irl as well when ppl expect you to respect them yet did nothing to earn that respect... funny.
Besides i don't think this has anything to do with respect, you're just a dude with other dudes in a party and you all came here for loot, what in blazes does respect has to do with this?
And why in blazes should i prioritize respecting some dudes i don't even know who did nothing to earn that respect to boot, higher than my own happiness?
I still don't get it. I mean it's not really a train where i often give my seat to old people because i see they need it.. it's a game and when you run a dungeon you give the same amount of effort as everybody else they ain't really old people, disabled, or weak.... and you all have the same amount of luck as well.. i just don't get it.
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			I couldn't edit the previous post. But, for those that prefer moving pictures and sound - John Cleese on Stupidity	
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i can't stand nvg. everyone involved in a run should get loot. the idea that you have to compete with the people you just grouped up with, and possible get pissed at them over losing that sweet piece, is counterproductive to teaming as far as i am concerned.
 
give everyone their own loot and all is better	
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Hey Everyone,
 
Just a quick reminder to keep it civil, getting personal won't solve anything and this is an issue we'd like to hear more feedback on.
 
Cheers.	
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			a gw loot style would have been nice where u get personal loot but would need extra control in 20 man raids	
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You need to show it to earn it, what makes you so sepcial people have to prove it to you first? It works both ways, now if someone disrespects you that is different, but this is exactly the problem with new generations is people expect you to blow there minds and show them respect first, that is wrong period. it will never work and people will not respect you.
 
(Do onto others as you would have them do unto you applies to everything)
 
Also it will reflect on your rep, in older mmorpgs everyone was respectful to each other because people where forced to group and people would remember your name.
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Simple scheme really, imagine:
 
Here lies the dungeon.
Here lies the party.
None of the people involved know one another, they just there for loot, not to make friends.. because dungeon requires party to drop the boss.
All provide equal effort.
All have equal luck.
 
So why the fk should 1 or the other have more benefit?
Why should we have 1 special snowflake for whom we will abandon our rolls?
Answer me this, hypocrites.  :lol:
But of course you can't, because there is absolutely no fkin' reason for that.
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I can understand if you made a deal before you entered the dungeon, with your guild or something, fine.
But pug runs? heh screw you mate i roll what i want. Unless of course we strike some deal..
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Night Head	
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Simple scheme really, imagine:
 
Here lies the dungeon.
Here lies the party.
None of the people involved know one another, they just there for loot, not to make friends.. because dungeon requires party to drop the boss.
All provide equal effort.
All have equal luck.
 
So why the fk should 1 or the other have more benefit?
Why should we have 1 special snowflake for whom we will abandon our rolls?
Answer me this, hypocrites.  :lol:
But of course you can't, because there is absolutely no fkin' reason for that.
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I can understand if you made a deal before you entered the dungeon, with your guild or something, fine.
But pug runs? heh screw you mate i roll what i want. Unless of course we strike some deal..
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I feel that simply put it's the nature of the beast and that you can't really solve it due to the shear randomness and variation of people you will run into.
The only real solution is not to PUG if you ever want to go into group content with an expectation or standard of how people should behave. 
 
If you choose to PUG my only advice that has worked for me most of the time is to communicate clearly howd you'd like to do the run from the beginning. Don't wait until that item you want drops, just spit it out and say you want an item and go from there.	
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What do you mean "i need to show it"? the hell?  :blink:
Moving on, i don't need anyone proving to me anything unless i ask for it and i expect the very same tratment.. it's all in your head mate.
I will earn your respect if i deem you worth the trouble as well.
And the next on the agenda what makes you so special that i have to give up my loot for you? hm?
You're that special snowflake? that shines the brightest and all that? heh.
And no, i don't really give a damn about the rep part, i mean why should i care about what some guy i don't care about thinks of me and my methods? get real.
I just can't generate enough anger for you lot anymore... it's just starting to get hilarious.
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Simple scheme really, imagine:
 
Here lies the dungeon.
Here lies the party.
None of the people involved know one another, they just there for loot, not to make friends.. because dungeon requires party to drop the boss.
All provide equal effort.
All have equal luck.
 
So why the fk should 1 or the other have more benefit?
Why should we have 1 special snowflake for whom we will abandon our rolls?
Answer me this, hypocrites.  :lol:
But of course you can't, because there is absolutely no fkin' reason for that.
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I can understand if you made a deal before you entered the dungeon, with your guild or something, fine.
But pug runs? heh screw you mate i roll what i want. Unless of course we strike some deal..
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			And this is why I deny all PUGs my tanking, healing, and dps skills ;-)	
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			The OP made a good point. "Don't need on items that aren't for your spec. Everything else is fair game." That's a solid point, one I agree with.Then I read the rest of the post and you are the only person being a jerk. Everyone else is just saying be good to others and all of your responses are "you guys aren't listening to me, I care about my self more than others, I NEED the 20 gold from that pair of gloves so I press need, it doesn't matter if that would have improved that guys character and rewarded him for his effort in this dungeon because I NEED it because I'm more important than him. What's so hard to understand?" Jesus Christ, grow up and pull that silver spoon out of your *cupcake*...or don't, but don't get mad at people for calling you out for being such a jerk when you're openly admitting to being one.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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The major problem with Need vs Greed as it is now, is that it allows to be taken advantaged of by trolls and asshats, if they ever feel hurt by someone or just get pissed off. Needing on anything and everything. A hostile atmosphere that makes a run feel like a waste of time. Where some people even could feel they wished they'd been kicked earlier for any reason so they could queue into something new.
It's a simple solution and it usually works most of the time. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid) is a good guideline. Simple is usually a good solution.
 
Some have talked about personal loot. If I understand WoW's perspective, you choose your spec (in Wildstar's case Assault or Support) and personal loot drops within that regardless what you do (tanking, healing or damaging). It's a fairly allright solution. Removing the whole "Need vs greed" away from the people, handed out automatically to those eligable. As long as people still can trade with each other when needed. Same could be done with crafting material and Decor. Just hand it out, leaving out people to decide for themselves. Some settings would be needed so you could for example pass on Decor if you're not interested, increasing chances for others to get some.
 
A bad outcome would be that we wouldn't be treated as adults, able to think and choose for ourselves, that the developers have to make it automatic so "we" can't argue and fight over things like kids in the sandbox.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Alysion	
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			Honestly there should be rolls specific for cosmetics that way no one can cheat. So one for gear and one for cosmetics.
			
				
	Edited October 19, 2015 by Xorian	
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Honestly there should be rolls specific for cosmetics that way no one can cheat. So one for gear and one for cosmetics.
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Something else that should be addressed with rolls is that people need to stop "need" rolling on mats they dont have a proffession for. Every pug i've joined has been a full team of people "needing" on cloth drops when the only one with the tailoring profession is me -.- Even if i ask that people not roll on mats they dont have the profession for i'm ignored and spam fest of need rolls on everything continues.
 
However rather than ask a community to be mature and responsible in pug groups, you should be pushing for an improved loot system. Majority of players in mmo's these days are greedy and very childish. They try to take everything they can regardless of whether or not they need it and regardless of the negative effects it can cause on the players around them. Nothing is going to stop their behavior, but proper systems can be set up to limit them. 	
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