120370-attuned-and-unattuned-endgame-content-page-5

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
They don't need to have said it. They don't need to *say* everything. Sometimes, common sense is enough.
 
Then entire game prepares you for raiding. But the attainment assures you've done group content in instances and mingled with teams of 20 for the world bosses, at the very least. If not the gearing process that goes along with it.
 
Attunement is a quest and its preparation for raiding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Please advise me on where you are finding GA trash mobs that drop gear. In all of my time spent in GA I've only ever seen a handful of gear drops from trash mobs, if you are getting some from every mob that is alarming and I want in on the action.
 
The reality is that very little gear comes from GA trash mobs, you get your gear drops from Mini-Bosses, Bosses and Challenges (best loot).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Doesn't mean they can't make harder ones later. :S
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The silver dungeons were a great measuring stick to see if you could do well in GA. That was taken away because players wanted to raid but couldn't beat STL in 30 minutes, or SSM in 75 minutes.
 
None of the other quests in the chain have anything to do with raid skills, so the only thing left to us is that it's simply a quest chain to bring people from doing solo quest content to doing group content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How does the ability to complete a dungeon in 30 minutes demonstrate that you're ready for GA? That's the part of your commentary that keeps going missing from your defenses of your position.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I always found this: http://medicatingnexus.com/2014/09/11/its-not-about-the-timer/ to be a good explanation.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
By "every trash mob" I meant "every type of trash mob". You acknowledge as much with the phrase "very little gear" instead of "gear doesn't drop from GA trash mobs". I can see how you would've interpreted it the other way, so my bad. I could've worded it better.
 
----
			In one sentence of 20 words or less, yasfan, tell me why the attunement process is so hard to complete?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yasfan has been asserting that the point of attunement is to make sure people are raid-ready.
 
I used to be in that same camp until the bronze change to dungeons, when it came to light that the developers simply didn't care about making sure people had the right skills, gear or knowledge to complete content to be successful in raid.
 
The silver dungeons were a great measuring stick to see if you could do well in GA. That was taken away because players wanted to raid but couldn't beat STL in 30 minutes, or SSM in 75 minutes.
 
None of the other quests in the chain have anything to do with raid skills, so the only thing left to us is that it's simply a quest chain to bring people from doing solo quest content to doing group content.
 
It makes no promises about your skill, it makes no promises that it will even make sure you have the gear to raid.
 
So the perception problem we're having is that attunement is somehow supposed to magically get you ready for raiding, when in reality it is only a quest chain that grants access to raiding.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
True or false: you are better prepared for raiding after completing attunement than you were before doing it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
False.
 
You could be better prepared, but it does nothing to guarantee this.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
False.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In one sentence of 20 words or less, yasfan, tell me why the attunement process is so hard to complete?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Really? I mean, you will have played a *ton* more. And much of it within groups, communicating and coordination. Not to mention all of the gear upgrades you would have gotten.
 
I don't think there's any question that every character is more ready for raiding after attunement than before.
----
			
@yasfan
 
why are people so obssesed with timers and attunement? people do attunement to get into raids correct? the longest timer in a dungeon is around an hour. and each times is a more than reasonable amount of time to complete a dungeon. say stuff like "sometimes people must take out the trash and feed their babies during a dungeon therefore timers are not a good idea" is ludicrous statement. i could understand this if dungeons just reset after a timer but no they dont. timers on dungeons are only required for silver not completion in general. if you are so busy that you cannot complete 1 dungeon once without an extended break then there is something wrong with your lifestyle. im not saying there arnt occasions where things come up but if being able to sit down for 30-45min is an impossible task for you consistantly for days on end then you have a lifestyle problem. the game shouldnt be changed based on this. now if dungeons were estimated an hour 30min and 2 hours of devoted time w/o wiggle room for completion then i would agree that they shouldnt be on a timer. but this isnt the case. ssm is the worst offender but lets be honest if you even want to get into casual raiding like old timers guild or the sorts you gotta atleast be able to sit down and do ssm for an hour.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Of course it doesn't. It lets experts like you carry some complete loser through. And of course you could have done everything required for attunement before ever hitting level 50.
 
But both of those conditions aren't relevant to the spirit of the question. The first is intentionally circumventing the process, the second is only no better after than before because they were ready before the process even started.
 
 
 
Thanks for providing that link, it was an interesting read. But to me, that article was so obviously wrong that I actually LOL'd while reading it. And I'd like to explain why.
 
The presumption in that article is that if the timed mission goes long, it must be because the group was having trouble with performing it. It can't be because someone's got a phone call, or because someone else needs to change their baby's diaper, or because the team just agrees that it's time for a break while someone does something.
 
Now I would guess, given the mindsets that have been prevalent here, that many people here would balk at putting up with someone in your raid group insisting on answering the phone and slowing down the whole raid. Fair enough, if you don't want that in your group, you have every right to declare your group "hardcore" and kick people out for not setting aside a block of time where interruptions are simply not allowed.
 
But that's your raid group. A more laid-back one that doesn't care how long it takes overall as long as they can take breaks and do the things they need to do in the real world could view it very differently. To me, the key line in that article is this: 
 
 
To me, that quote is central to the entire argument, and the red part is why the whole thing falls apart. A timer requirement and a "<3 wipes + 80% trash mob interrupts" requirement are absolutely not even close to the same thing--and the author knows it, which is why he says they're the same unless you're doing a bunch of perfectly reasonable stuff that he personally wouldn't do. They're the same to HIM. That doesn't mean they're the same to everyone who is plenty capable of doing the technical stuff they need to be able to do.
 
So with all due respect, that article is simply not a justification for how silvers test of raid-readiness. That's yet another "my raid group wants X so attunement should have X". All hardcore raiders may be raid-ready, but it does not follow from that that all raid-ready players are hardcore. And that is a problem that permeates the attunement process.
 
 :rolleyes: I didn't ask, because I didn't HAVE to ask. You've already made it abundantly clear that you raid regularly, and I don't frankly give a crap where you're at in DS. The thing you're quoting is me employing the same argument on you that you have perpetually hurled at me throughout this thread. It goes like this: 
 
You don't know X? (Where, by the way, X is something you do in fact know. And that I fully expect you know. That's why I said "I'm pretty sure you know it too" just a sentence or two above the text you quoted.) Then you must not have played the game/raid/dungeon/PvE/whatever!
 
 
 
 
I don't care what your creds are because I can evaluate your arguments based on their merit. IF we were arguing about whether power X or power Y has a higher maximal DPS then your considerably greater expertise at the technical aspects of the game might matter, because it's a very specific and quantitative and well-defined question. 
 
But then again, it might not. Throughout this thread, you've repeatedly taken positions far more extreme than reality. If you think attunement should be changed, you must hate PvE. There is no difference between the exacting performance that I expect of people I want to group with and the minimum level of proficiency that should be allowed to raid at all.. Attunement isn't about raid-readiness. If you couldn't get attuned the way it used to be, you're not raid ready.
 
That last one's pretty funny. So should I take it from that position that nobody who's been attuned since the start of the Bronze Age has in fact been able to raid unless they either did all the dungeons at silver or got carried through helped by an expert?
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Really? I mean, you will have played a *ton* more. And much of it within groups, communicating and coordination. Not to mention all of the gear upgrades you would have gotten.
 
I don't think there's any question that every character is more ready for raiding after attunement than before.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because it's easier to sneer a straw-man question than to stick to the point that it's bloated, not hard.
----
			
get rid of those pathetic world boss OR
put a menu in the game that shows if they are up and put a good reward for killing them.
like gw2, people were farming them (and its better than nothing. it is another social activity for casual to do and will help with the attunement).
 
not having level scaling is hurting a lot though...
 
just make gw2 wild wildstar gameplay and add raids to it.
thats it. done.
best game ever.
 
oh. while your at it, make all gear equal in instanced pvp. stat imbalance just creates problems.
and it is less fun because its crazy expensive and tedious to try different builds.
 
oh, also you need more dungeons.
4?
you need at least 8more of them that are in the 30-40 minutes completion time.
 
adventures?
very hit or miss.
probably wotw and the siege defence are the only good/nailed one.
 
so make adventures like that and stop the ones with the choices and shit.
people are not there for the roleplay (solo stuff is for that).
any dungeon over 45minutes is also a waste of content.
give people a lot of "quickies" to do!
keep raids and warplots only for the more tedious/long stuff.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
@yasfan
 
why are people so obssesed with timers and attunement? people do attunement to get into raids correct? the longest timer in a dungeon is around an hour. and each times is a more than reasonable amount of time to complete a dungeon. say stuff like "sometimes people must take out the trash and feed their babies during a dungeon therefore timers are not a good idea" is ludicrous statement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The clear and unambiguous reality is that the dungeon timers have nothing to do with raid-readiness because raids aren't timed. I may not be an expert, but I do know that much. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're asking me why people are so obsessed with timers? :blink: I don't know! I frankly am having some difficulty believing this conversation's gone back to them. They aren't even part of attunement any more.
 
I remember all the screaming hysterics about how raids were going to be flooded with bads when it was announced that those timers were going out. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, those concerns were pretty much a joke. The roster boss turned out to be the real threat and the bads were a paper tiger.
 
The clear and unambiguous reality is that the dungeon timers have nothing to do with raid-readiness because raids aren't timed. I may not be an expert, but I do know that much. The statement "if the timer's a problem, it must mean you can't play the game!" is obviously false, which is why even the guy who wrote up the argument making that claim tried to say it--but even he felt the need to include a bunch of exceptions that invalidate the statement. He sneered at them as if somehow they aren't real, but the fact is that people who play MMORPGs do the things he listed as exceptions all the time. So he knew his argument was crap and he made it anyway. 
 
Why was he so unable to let go of his crappy argument? I don't know. Maybe you should ask him.
 
In a similar line of thought, Kavaltre's still so hurt over the loss of those timers that he can't even bring himself to accept that attunement is even ABOUT raid-readiness anymore. Not just a know-nothing loser like me points it out, but when other hardcore raiders do too. So if you want to know why people are so obsessed about them, maybe you should ask him..
 
If you ever get an answer that's even remotely rational, let me know. I'm mildly curious to hear it.
 
 
 
I'm pretty sure our disconnect happened when you went off into some wonderful makebelieve place where you started telling yourself that you were so obviously right that the only possible reason to disagree with you would be trolling. FYI, my comments about straw-men and sneering were referring to the straw-man question that Biytor sneered at me. That's why I quoted him and referred to sneering and straw men.
 
But I will admit that I enjoyed addressing his post in 20 words or less.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're asking me why people are so obsessed with timers? :blink: I don't know! I frankly am having some difficulty believing this conversation's gone back to them. They aren't even part of attunement any more.
 
I remember all the screaming hysterics about how raids were going to be flooded with bads when it was announced that those timers were going out. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, those concerns were pretty much a joke. The roster boss turned out to be the real threat and the bads were a paper tiger.
 
The clear and unambiguous reality is that the dungeon timers have nothing to do with raid-readiness because raids aren't timed. I may not be an expert, but I do know that much. The statement "if the timer's a problem, it must mean you can't play the game!" is obviously false, which is why even the guy who wrote up the argument making that claim tried to say it--but even he felt the need to include a bunch of exceptions that invalidate the statement. He sneered at them as if somehow they aren't real, but the fact is that people who play MMORPGs do the things he listed as exceptions all the time. So he knew his argument was crap and he made it anyway. 
 
Why was he so unable to let go of his crappy argument? I don't know. Maybe you should ask him.
 
In a similar line of thought, Kavaltre's still so hurt over the loss of those timers that he can't even bring himself to accept that attunement is even ABOUT raid-readiness anymore. Not just a know-nothing loser like me points it out, but when other hardcore raiders do too. So if you want to know why people are so obsessed about them, maybe you should ask him..
 
If you ever get an answer that's even remotely rational, let me know. I'm mildly curious to hear it.
 
 
 
I'm pretty sure our disconnect happened when you went off into some wonderful makebelieve place where you started telling yourself that you were so obviously right that the only possible reason to disagree with you would be trolling. FYI, my comments about straw-men and sneering were referring to the straw-man question that Biytor sneered at me. That's why I quoted him and referred to sneering and straw men.
 
But I will admit that I enjoyed addressing his post in 20 words or less.
----
			
After discussing the hilarious posts Yasfan keeps on making with my guildmates, one asked me what I would do if I were in the developer position in charge of the attunement process.
 
And after some reflection I would do the following:
 
1. Change all bread crumb quests to each zone so they must be completed in chain for Grimvault, Blighthaven and the Defile. (ambitious players could still go off and do them out of order if they wanted)
2. Change the attunement quest chain to start with the completion of the Defile instead of just getting to level 50.
3. Change the Genesis Key to be acquired by assembling it from components awarded to players for finishing each level 50 daily zone at least once. (Send people to R-12 to start it, Crimson Badlands to get a piece, then Frozen Wastes, then get a part from Blighthaven and Defile)
4. Change the adventures step to be based on achievements, like the dungeon and world boss step.
 
So the overall change would make it more seamless to the transition to end game that the process is supposed to be. All the other steps stay in the same order, but this process of doing all the daily zones at least one time can show players that the Rep step can be done quickly, and will more likely complete itself. It probably works better for the story as well, as Drusera would drop all the story details along the way and give a more clear picture to the purpose of the raids. The gear progression would work better as well, as doing veteran content on alts is less demanding with the aid of the Defile quest gear. As for Elder Gem concerns, with Drop 4 changing all the gear over to glory and leaving only vanity items on the Elder Gem vendor, it doesn't really matter if there is a charge for the key or not, and if there is a charge, at least get players to do enough content before they are prompted to buy it so that they have enough Gems right away. That should clean up the feel of it being a grind to 150.
 
Alt players will for sure understand what is going on, but for new players, I think it would be a better over all game experience. 	
----
			
The attunement process isn't to get you ready to raid. Its a quest so you can raid. 
 
Its just extra content with a bit of lore and challenge to it, nothing more. They should not spend any development time on a raid attunement quest that will be useless in 6 months. 
If Carbine does anything remove all the group parts and just leave in the solo lore stuff in the quest line.
 
The time to change this has gone and passed and any further work or discussion on the matter is a mute point.
 
I just got done doing this on my alt and it took 2 days; After completing the max exile rep grind that took 3 days of doing all the daily quests, I went from 15k - 32k.
 
Its ok as is, if you are having problems with world bosses make sure you get into the LFG channel it will help.
Speaking of that Carbine needs to make this a default channel in game without finding out on your own. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason it would be flooded with bads was because people were getting no experience with group play at a veteran level from dungeons because of gold or bust. they would fail a challenge or die and then the party would be over. its hard to learn when you have to restart and find a new group anytime someone messed up. there are still a lot a lot a lot of bad players that are doing raids even now and if you dont believe me start asking groups of raiders if it isnt just 10 people carrying another 10 people or something close to that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I thought it had been generally accepted as a good thing.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I thought so too. Apparently there's still a lot of people who have been secretly hoping they'll reinstate it.
 
Either that or they're just trying to flood the thread with stuff that's about the past so that talking about the future gets completely bogged down and derailed.
 
And by the way, that second possibility is why I'm done talking about timers. It's also why I'm done trying to repeatedly explain things that could be answered just by re-quoting things I've already posted to people who otherwise seem quite intelligent but yet remain incapable of understanding every post I write. So to those of you who are continually doing those things, feel free to refer to this post any time you find yourself wondering why I'm no longer responding to those topics and questions.
----
			
So Yasfan if we distill all your posts down to one main theme. I would be...
 
 
I don't want to do the attunement, so I shouldn't have too... (Huff, Huff, Huff. Angry Face. Stomps Foot.)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So you're flat out and openly refusing to explain your thought process or back up your points of view?  "There aren't timers in raids so timers in dungeons are meaningless" isn't an argument... its a statement.  I'm not suggesting that they bring them back but the above quoted statement is from my point of view just that, a statement with zero evidence or argument to support it.
 
That's like me saying, "Yasfan has probably never completed a silver dungeon or stepped foot into a wildstar raid which means he has little to no experience and as a result little to no credibility on the matter".  Just like the above its a statement that I'm throwing out without backing it up.  See how easy that was?  I'm not suggesting that that's true but you've also given us no reason to believe otherwise.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Thanks for providing that link, it was an interesting read. But to me, that article was so obviously wrong that I actually LOL'd while reading it. And I'd like to explain why.
 
The presumption in that article is that if the timed mission goes long, it must be because the group was having trouble with performing it. It can't be because someone's got a phone call, or because someone else needs to change their baby's diaper, or because the team just agrees that it's time for a break while someone does something.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm done playing this game where you play stupid and I waste time repeating myself.
----
			Edited, disregard.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
20 spare minutes in STL?  Doing a 10 minute silver run is really damn fast.  I realize you're probably just throwing STL in the list with KV and SC but in the interest of fairness to the opposing side here lets be clear that a 20 minute STL silver with 10 minutes to spare is much closer to the norm.  10 minutes is more like enough time to feed the cat, bio, kiss or yell at your SO, nuke a hot pocket, and then pour another glass of Doritos Mountain Dew.  
 
That last sentence is so disgusting... I can't imagine that food combo.  :huh:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
STL is 40 mins now mate ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
After going back and rereading what you've said on the subject of silvers it seems to me that you're suggesting that timers are unrelated to raiding because its normal for people to have to step away at random times for real life stuff that come up and stepping away is what results in failing the silver timer?
 
Can you confirm or expand on that if I haven't grasped it clearly?
----
			
Edit: :lol: You got me, I admit it. I responded to you. Went back to stuff about timers and pulled up my previous posts. Well played, sir.. 
 
But no. There is literally no point at all in talking about the timers, they're not even part of attunement. Here's the most relevant quote for your post.
 
{| class="blockquote"
I thought so too. Apparently there's still a lot of people who have been secretly hoping they'll reinstate it.
 
Either that or they're just trying to flood the thread with stuff that's about the past so that talking about the future gets completely bogged down and derailed.
 
And by the way, that second possibility is why I'm done talking about timers. It's also why I'm done trying to repeatedly explain things that could be answered just by re-quoting things I've already posted to people who otherwise seem quite intelligent but yet remain incapable of understanding every post I write. So to those of you who are continually doing those things, feel free to refer to this post any time you find yourself wondering why I'm no longer responding to those topics and questions.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Edit: :lol: You got me, I admit it. I responded to you. Went back to stuff about timers and pulled up my previous posts. Well played, sir.. 
 
But no. There is literally no point at all in talking about the timers, they're not even part of attunement. Here's the most relevant quote for your post.
 
 
Emphasis in red.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If that's what you guessed was relevant from your reading, you got it right. Note the quote in particular, where the author of the piece takes something that WOULD actually be a real test of performance in the dungeon and claims that a timer is really the same thing. Now note the bit in orange, where I pointed out that even he doesn't think they're really the same thing. In fact, nobody who is being even remotely honest can say that they're the same thing without doing exactly what he had to do: list a whole bunch of exceptions that a variety of groups of people actually do in MMORPGs and then sneer at them as if somehow they don't count. 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It sounds like you're suggesting that completing a dungeon in X time is different from completing it with fewer than X errors and you're right those two things are different, and things other than errors, like RL stuff, could and do get in the way of the timers.  Also completing a dungeon with fewer than X errors doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to complete it in X time frame, it simply allows you the freedom to do so assuming other things don't get in the way, like RL stuff.  However, and here's the important part imho, in order to complete a dungeon in X time you will need to complete it with fewer than X number of errors to stay within that time frame and that's the important connection.  That if you want to make the silver timer you will need to perform at a certain level to do so.
 
I believe that's what the author was trying to get at.  That X performance will lead to X timer being achieved baring outside influences by RL.  The fact is that a player incapable of performing at a certain level isn't going to make the timer even if they don't have RL stopping them.  Yes you're right that raids do not require players to clear said content in 30-75 minutes (the range of silver times) but what raids do require is a certain level of player ability and consistency over a 5-15 minute fight that bronze doesn't expect of them.
 
I'm not suggesting that silvers should come back.  Simply that the connection between silver and raiding is that silver is a better measure of a players ability than a bronze is.
 
Do you think that a 30-75 minute timer is longer than a player can be reasonably expected to go uninterrupted?  If you were running a raid what would you think is a reasonable amount fo time to expect players to commit to being at their computer uninterrupted for the most part?  Lastly would you agree that silver dungeons require a higher level of player ability than bronze dungeons do assuming RL doesn't get in the way?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
200% right.
 
silver does require a higher amount of skill than bronze.
 
raids while not timed do require a certain level of skill to complete and in that sense being able to complete a silver dungeon over a bronze dungeon would put you at an advantage when dealing with raids.
 
while i dont believe silver dungeons shouldnt be required for attunement again i do agree they were a better prerequisite for players when trying to enter the raiding scene.
 
to explain this i would like to use an analogy (i hate them but its a quick way to get a point across). imagine a kid wants to ride a bicycle, in order to teach him i would first start him on a tricycle. once he gets the hang of it i would move him to the bicycle. i could however just give him the bicycle from the beginning and eventually he would learn to ride it but he will probably have a worse time.
 
the tricycle in this analogy is silver dungeons. while the straight up bicycle would be doing bronze dungeons before raids. bronze dungeons do not properly prep you for raids so when you do get into a raid it will be a whole new experience for you much like going straight to the bicycle, while silver dungeons give you the hang of how a difficult a raid can be therefore preping you for raid (not necessarily but definitely more so than bronze dungeons)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I would also like to agree on this. I will admit, back in the day I was a strong supporter to remove Silver Dungeons from attunement. Even though I didn't like the idea of being forced to rely on others to perform at a certain level to be able to raid, I got attuned and started GA before the Bronze Age patch. 
 
That being said I agree that Silver Dungeons prepare you better than Bronze, but if Bronze is what you are working with, there are still ways to improve. If mechanics such as avoidance (Genetic Monstrosity and X-89 come to mind) are what plagues your raid or yourself, go backwards in content. Run a few Dungeons with Silver as your goal and I guarantee you will see improvement. Same thing if interrupts (Kuralak) become troublesome. 
 
If attunement was removed entirely I would still screen potential candidates (as I do now, because anyone can be carried through the entire attunement anyway) by running Silvers. The mechanics required to execute most of Act I in GA can be fine tuned and assessed via Dungeons. The reason I don't want to see attunement removed is there has to be some way to measure that a player has at least somewhat dedication to their character and a task before we ever have to meet, and attunement (regardless of how tedious it is) is a great way to do this. I never said it couldn't be fine tuned, but that can be said about many aspects of this game.
 
I do these trials because it will tell me several things about the players. 
Can they commit to spending x minutes at their computer, uninterrupted.	Can they be assigned tasks and complete said tasks, such as being #2 in the interrupt order.	Can they learn different strategies to different fights, thus displaying an accurate mastery of mechanics. 	Can they play their character to a level I would expect, given gear and experience. 	Can they handle constructive criticism.
The rest of my guild and I think that only by doing this, can we best assess the potential of a player looking to raid with us. If a potential raider cannot display all of these attributes, they will be told where they can improve and we can determine what bosses in GA (if any) they are ready for. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To be fair, though, I think one of the reasons this is such a big deal is because world bosses were SUPPOSED to skillcheck you there.  At least that's how it seems to me.  I'm not entirely sure if world bosses used to all be level 50 at some stage of design and were later scaled down, but to have them at the end of attunement, with all the things you do have to do to make the runs smooth with 20 people at level, make me think that world bosses were supposed to teach you interrupt orders, cut-DPS mechanics, add management, positional requirements, walking telegraphs, cleansing, etc. in a raid setting.  While earning medals do teach you to do as you're told (an important skill in raids, I suppose, but not necessarily a one-to-one teaching mechanic either considering you're learning a lot of non-combat tricks to avoid combat) I don't think that was necessarily their intention.  Doing all of these things in a 20 man raid is a lot different than beating a timer in a veteran dungeon.
 
Still, whatever happened, whether it was just that the design changed later or that it wasn't designed well at all, the last stage of attunement that is meant to actually teach you 20-man mechanics can currently usually be tank-and-spanked by 5 level 50s until you get into the upper decks of the world bosses, and none of them are as difficult as they're technically supposed to be to teach those mechanics.  If we are taking attunement to be sort of an "internship period" for raiding (and I do), the biggest problem with it isn't that it exists or takes too long, but that some portions of it simply aren't doing the jobs they're meant to.  Rather than further remove it (since I do think attunement should be there serving the purpose it was meant to), it might just be better to adjust it with that purpose in mind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do you think that a 30-75 minute timer is longer than a player can be reasonably expected to go uninterrupted?  If you were running a raid what would you think is a reasonable amount fo time to expect players to commit to being at their computer uninterrupted for the most part?  Lastly would you agree that silver dungeons require a higher level of player ability than bronze dungeons do assuming RL doesn't get in the way?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I do agree that silver dungeons require a higher level of ability than bronze, of course. It is a more stringent test. That's totally irrelevant to whether or not it's a crappy test.
 
Tests have two fundamental properties. They need to keep out that which they're supposed to keep out--which is to say that they need to be specific--and they need to let through that which they're supposed to let through--which is to say that they need to be sensitive.
 
Test specificity
The author of that article, and most of the people on this thread, are all focused on the specificity of the test: does the test keep out everyone who doesn't have the skill? Not just with respect to the dungeons, pretty much everywhere throughout attunement. Or at least, those of you who don't carry people through attunement are focused on that issue.
 
For those of you who do carry people through attunement, clearly you don't care all that much about whether everyone who doesn't have the skill stays out. You're measuring the specificity of the test by a completely different question that's a lot less noble-sounding. For you, the test question is: does the test keep out everyone who either 1) doesn't have the skill, or 2) I don't choose to let through?
 
That's why those of you who carry people through attunement are so amusing in your insistence about the test keeping out the unskilled. If that's the aspect of the test that you actually cared about, you wouldn't be carrying people through it. It's pretty clear why you want the test to be as hard as you can convince the developers to make it, so long as those changes don't interfere with your ability to carry people through. As long as you can still carry people through it, the harder it is the more demand there is for a carrier.
 
That's why, if the developers had any brains at all, they would be listening to the advice they get with very careful attention to the following question: who on these forums really wants the attunement to be hard, but also fiercely opposes any suggestion that making the person seeking attunement the most critical factor in their own attunement process? Those are people who are not in fact trying to make sure the test a skill check. They're trying to make sure the test is a skill-or-carry check.
 
I lose track of whether there's been anyone in this thread who has advocated keeping it as hard as it is currently but also advocated changes to ensure that the person seeking attunement is, at each checkpoint, the most relevant contributor to their own attunement. But I have been trying to keep an eye out for that, and nobody comes to mind.
 
Test sensitivity
My focus is on the sensitivity of the test: does everyone who does have the skill get through? That's a quite different question from the one about specificity, because it looks more at people who have the skills required to pass what the test is intended to examine, but that nevertheless fail the test because the test didn't correctly assess their abilities.
 
It's why the timer doesn't matter to you and does matter to me. I'm not just worried about specificity, I'm worried about sensitivity as well. A perfectly skilled person can still need to stop halfway through a dungeon to change their kid's diaper, or deal with a phone call, or let their dog out, or whatever. The number of reasons why people can be interrupted by real life once in a while for perfectly valid reasons that the overwhelming majority of us will say "sure, no problem, we'll wait" about is huge. And people who have those problems regularly, or groups of people where each person has those problems much less commonly but all of them have them, will fail the timer even if they do every skill check in the dungeon flawlessly.
 
This will not prevent them from succeeding at a no-wipe dungeon where they perfectly execute every mechanic, nor will it impact their ability to perform in raids--as long as they find a group to run with that is fine with the interruption.  And to be clear, many of us are quite understanding about taking breaks for real-life intrusions, whether most of the people in this particular thread are or not. If you or your guild would never put up with that kind of thing, I will say it again: your or your guild's expectations of who they want to raid with has no place in the attunement process, which is required for every single person who wants to raid whether they would ever raid with you or not.
 
And that's why the timer sucks as a skill-check for attunement. It's not specific, because it leaves the door wide open for carries, and it's not sensitive, because it slams the door in the face of skilled groups of players who have real lives that interfere and require breaks. 
 
In fact, that's why ANY test that's part of attunement needs to keep out carries. Carries degrade specificity. That's why ANY test that's part of attunement needs to focus on what actually matters for raiding and not a bunch of other unfocused bloat that people keep trying to pretend is really about skill when it isn't. Unfocused bloat degrades sensitivity.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wow, you have a very conceited position on what tests should measure, and you have failed to grasp the very singular thing that is more required to raid than anything else, and that's a group of people who are willing to play the game with you.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I do agree that silver dungeons require a higher level of ability than bronze, of course. It is a more stringent test. That's totally irrelevant to whether or not it's a crappy test.
 
Tests have two fundamental properties. They need to keep out that which they're supposed to keep out--which is to say that they need to be specific--and they need to let through that which they're supposed to let through--which is to say that they need to be sensitive.
 
Test specificity
The author of that article, and most of the people on this thread, are all focused on the specificity of the test: does the test keep out everyone who doesn't have the skill? Not just with respect to the dungeons, pretty much everywhere throughout attunement. Or at least, those of you who don't carry people through attunement are focused on that issue.
 
For those of you who do carry people through attunement, clearly you don't care all that much about whether everyone who doesn't have the skill stays out. You're measuring the specificity of the test by a completely different question that's a lot less noble-sounding. For you, the test question is: does the test keep out everyone who either 1) doesn't have the skill, or 2) I don't choose to let through?
 
That's why those of you who carry people through attunement are so amusing in your insistence about the test keeping out the unskilled. If that's the aspect of the test that you actually cared about, you wouldn't be carrying people through it. It's pretty clear why you want the test to be as hard as you can convince the developers to make it, so long as those changes don't interfere with your ability to carry people through. As long as you can still carry people through it, the harder it is the more demand there is for a carrier.
 
That's why, if the developers had any brains at all, they would be listening to the advice they get with very careful attention to the following question: who on these forums really wants the attunement to be hard, but also fiercely opposes any suggestion that making the person seeking attunement the most critical factor in their own attunement process? Those are people who are not in fact trying to make sure the test a skill check. They're trying to make sure the test is a skill-or-carry check.
 
I lose track of whether there's been anyone in this thread who has advocated keeping it as hard as it is currently but also advocated changes to ensure that the person seeking attunement is, at each checkpoint, the most relevant contributor to their own attunement. But I have been trying to keep an eye out for that, and nobody comes to mind.
 
Test sensitivity
My focus is on the sensitivity of the test: does everyone who does have the skill get through? That's a quite different question from the one about specificity, because it looks more at people who have the skills required to pass what the test is intended to examine, but that nevertheless fail the test because the test didn't correctly assess their abilities.
 
It's why the timer doesn't matter to you and does matter to me. I'm not just worried about specificity, I'm worried about sensitivity as well. A perfectly skilled person can still need to stop halfway through a dungeon to change their kid's diaper, or deal with a phone call, or let their dog out, or whatever. The number of reasons why people can be interrupted by real life once in a while for perfectly valid reasons that the overwhelming majority of us will say "sure, no problem, we'll wait" about is huge. And people who have those problems regularly, or groups of people where each person has those problems much less commonly but all of them have them, will fail the timer even if they do every skill check in the dungeon flawlessly.
 
This will not prevent them from succeeding at a no-wipe dungeon where they perfectly execute every mechanic, nor will it impact their ability to perform in raids--as long as they find a group to run with that is fine with the interruption.  And to be clear, many of us are quite understanding about taking breaks for real-life intrusions, whether most of the people in this particular thread are or not. If you or your guild would never put up with that kind of thing, I will say it again: your or your guild's expectations of who they want to raid with has no place in the attunement process, which is required for every single person who wants to raid whether they would ever raid with you or not.
 
And that's why the timer sucks as a skill-check for attunement. It's not specific, because it leaves the door wide open for carries, and it's not sensitive, because it slams the door in the face of skilled groups of players who have real lives that interfere and require breaks. 
 
In fact, that's why ANY test that's part of attunement needs to keep out carries. Carries degrade specificity. That's why ANY test that's part of attunement needs to focus on what actually matters for raiding and not a bunch of other unfocused bloat that people keep trying to pretend is really about skill when it isn't. Unfocused bloat degrades sensitivity.
----
			
The whole argument for removing the attunement process seems to be that it fails at its purpose of getting participants raid-ready thus creating unnecessary content that people shouldn't have to do because they don't want to. However, the attunement process even when silvers were required has always failed this lofty goal. Being ready for raids requires much more than simply doing a few dungeons and adventures, it requires gear, it requires mechanical knowledge, and it requires technical knowledge. For the sake of this post I will define these terms.
Gear - Doing raids requires gear, particularly, it requires crafted and veteran gear, with good runing
Mechanical Knowledge - Doing Raids requires knowledge of boss mechanics and how to respond to them, it also requires mechanical execution, that is the ability for each player to execute the proper response to particular mechanics
Technical Knowledge - Doing Raids requires knowledge of one's class, proper DPS and Healing rotations and build, and how to properly use the tools Carbine has given that class in executing mechanics 
 
While the attunement process certainly can help with these things it hardly tests them or ensures that people undergoing the attunement process are raid-ready. The attunement process gives no gear, but it does require that you go into the adventures and dungeons that drop the gear you need to succeed in raids. This is incidental to the attunement process however, gathering the appropriate gear will often require multiple runs of various dungeons and adventures. Further, the attunement process does nothing to test or teach runing. There is no step where the caretaker says, come back to me with an appropriate runed set of gear so you can go to GA. While I haven't play WoW since Cataclysm, they had a much different system there in that minimum gear scores were required to que for random dungeons, vet dungeons, and use the looking for raid tool. Carbine put no such gear score requirement in the game and very well could have if the main purpose of attunement was to ensure that raiding players were raid-ready.
 
Mechanical knowledge is again incidental to the attunement process. People who can learn all of a fights mechanics and how to respond to them after seeing the fight only once are few and far between. I practiced the mechanics in adventures and in dungeons over and over again to perfect them. While this certainly assists people to identify the mechanics and responses in raids, it is still merely incidental to the attunement process. Finally, technical knowledge is again incidental to the attunement process, while dungeons and adventures certainly teach the basics of interrupting, it is possible to get through at least some of the various instances without interrupting. Nor does the attunement process teach you how to do a dps rotation, how to tank, or how to heal. With the major requirements for raiding merely incidental to a small portion of the attunement steps (adventures and dungeons), we can come to one of two conclusions. The first is that Carbine's Dev's are incredibly bad at designing tests for raid readiness. The second, and more supportable is that the purpose of attunement is not as a test of raid readiness but something else. If we look at the second position, we can see that 1) the attunement process has a story to it, 2) it consists of both individual and group content designed to advance that story, 3) that the attunement process provides a path for fresh level 50 players to let them know the things they can do to prepare them for raiding. It would seem that the purpose of the attunement is then to expose the players to pve content available in the endgame and to tell a story of a character needing to collect various primal patterns in order to restore their genesis key. Is the attunement process perfect? No certainly not, but is it so broken that it needs to be scrapped entirely. Is it such an enormous time sink that it prevents players from being able to complete it with a reasonable commitment, no.   Being prepared and ready to raid can certainly be a result or incidental purpose of the attunement process, but this doesn't mean its the only or sole purpose of that process. Often, players will have to run the adventures and dungeons many more times than the one time required to complete attunement in order to get the gear, master the mechanics, and master the technical knowledge necessary to succeed with their class.  In conclusion, if the purpose of attunement is testing raid-readiness, it certainly fails. However, as there are other ways to ensure that players are raid ready that could have been and were not implemented (gear score, more dungeon completions, etc.), it then follows that the purpose of attunement is not to test a players raid-readiness. While preparation for a raid is certainly a incidental byproduct of the attunement process, it can better be argued that the purpose of the attunment is to expose fresh 50s to all the content they will need to do in order to help get raid ready while also providing a continuing story and fun little mini-quests.  	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wow, you have a very conceited position on what tests should measure, and you have failed to grasp the very singular thing that is more required to raid than anything else, and that's a group of people who are willing to play the game with you.
a hard time with your concept of carries, as to me someone is only carried if they could be just dead the whole time and being that man down makes absolutely no difference to the end result, do you have some different concept of carry in mind?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In conclusion, if the purpose of attunement is testing raid-readiness, it certainly fails. However, as there are other ways to ensure that players are raid ready that could have been and were not implemented (gear score, more dungeon completions, etc.), it then follows that the purpose of attunement is not to test a players raid-readiness. While preparation for a raid is certainly a incidental byproduct of the attunement process, it can better be argued that the purpose of the attunment is to expose fresh 50s to all the content they will need to do in order to help get raid ready while also providing a continuing story and fun little mini-quests.  
----