107901-wildstar-the-slot-machine-of-cutesy-randomness

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As I was reading this article here http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/08/11/the-nexus-telegraph-addictions-that-wildstar-must-kick/#continued it dawned on me how spot-on this phrase can be used to describe Wildstar's current state of affairs: Challenges are great, but the rewards are a slot machine that offers you limited control over what you get
 
In essence, this right here summarizes the biggest issue the game has at the moment, the way your effort, which should be as consistent as possible if you want to achieve Silver or Gold levels of completion, is not rewarded with the same level of consistency when it comes to loot drops, itemization or rune slots.
 
I can do with the bugs, even though Devs at times seem to stumble haphazardly through their own code. I can tolerate imbalance, classic staple of the genre and an ongoing struggle for sure. I can even withstand the understandable exodus of players who realized that after a couple of months, this wasn't their own particular cup of tea.
 
What I don't and won't understand is the Devs erroneous definition of hardcore, and I'll use Felix Baumgartner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Baumgartner) as a good for instance: To quote "He set the world record for skydiving an estimated 39 kilometres (24 mi), reaching an estimated speed of 1,357.64 km/h (843.6 mph), or Mach 1.25,[2][3][4] on 14 October 2012, and became the first person to break the sound barrierwithout vehicular power on his descent."
 
That by itself is what, in my mind, hardcore should sound like. Imagine a scenario, hyperbolic and all, where he was setting up the essential equipment to withstand the feat, only to find that the measurements required in his gauges and thingamajigs (forgive my lack of skydiving experience, all I know is it involves gauges, magic and a gravity-defying set of cojones) change every time and only after changing and tinkering for hours, he would finally get the "stats" needed to survive the ordeal. 
 
Oh, but it doesn't stop there: 
 
Picture if you will, the helmet he has to wear to tolerate the jump. He probably had it custom-made according to all the essential skydiving-survival concepts a wizard needs in order to craft it powerful enough to safely present God with a Red Bull sponsored middle finger (again, sorry, no clue on how skydiving works past the pants-shitting phase).
 
How hardcore would it be to take that gynormously insane life decision relying on equipment that may or may not work, whose stats may or may not stay the same, and in the end, when against all odds he doesn't  end up a Baumgartner flavored meat lovers pizza, only to get... a friggin' Decor piece???? (ok, that´s how far the comparison could take me. Apologies)
 
All humor aside (it's my coping mechanism, sue me), Carbine bet on this cutesy rollercoaster of furry wet dreams set in Space, and, from an artistic standpoint, it soooo paid off. The general ambience is gorgeous, I've said a million times that Kurtenacker should be composing Episode VII score (at least to put much needed glazing over that soon-to-be turd) and the story, believe it or not, does not take itself too seriously while delivering quite a narrative punch.
From a technical and gaming-wise concept, Carbine's idea of hardcore is so childlike it borders on cute. Many people have said it better than me, RNG is not hardcore, Gating is not hardcore, and while attunements are mechanisms that could indeed weed out the non-dedicated from the truly exceptional (maybe), making a player jump through unnecessary hoops that prove nothing of their skill, does not a hardcore game make.
 
Sadly, the one front where grouping up feels like it could be encouraged (dungeons and adventures) has gotten permeated with elitist and toxic behaviour and while changes were made, many newer players seem completely put off by the prospect of getting yelled at for not going fast or perfect enough to get Gold.
 
Arrogance I feel, is a common sin in gaming, both from players who want to feel like unique snowflakes not because of skill but because they had enough time to beat the RNG hamster Wheel, and from developers who insist on a philosophy that quite frankly didn't work from the get go.
 
No, you cannot have my stuff, simply because I ain't quitting yet and... well, it's my stuff, battered and cheese smeared and all. 
I hope the devs aren't Listening. At this point, I'd rather "The Devs are Reflecting their Game Choices"
 
KEEP HARDCORE IN THE HANDS OF SKILL, NOT DATABASE FATE!!!	
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Nobody ever said that was hardcore though. At least I've not read a dev staying it. That mechanism is in place to keep you playing the same content over and over the same way the mechanism it's built into challenges to keep you doing the challenge over and over in order for you to get the reward you want. It's the same reason I've done the moonshine cabin challenge 50 times in the hope to get a black dye. 
 
We can have a discussion about if it's a bad idea in pve to have stuff like this but I think it's a faulty notion being thrown around that anyone thinks it's hardcore. It's a mechanism to keep you paying your subscription every month.	
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Nobody ever said that was hardcore though. At least I've not read a dev staying it. That mechanism is in place to keep you playing the same content over and over the same way the mechanism it's built into challenges to keep you doing the challenge over and over in order for you to get the reward you want. It's the same reason I've done the moonshine cabin challenge 50 times in the hope to get a black dye.
 
We can have a discussion about if it's a bad idea in pve to hate stuff like this bit I think it's a faulty notion being throw around that anyone thinks it's hardcore. It's a mechanism to keep you paying your subscription every month.
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Oh look, another rng complaint thread!
 
It's the way the game plays, and I'd suggest embracing it.	
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So it's not hardcore... it's just a second job where instead of getting paid... you actually pay them???
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Is this your first MMO? That's a feature of the genre, not a W* thing. 
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it's all perspective man. If you want to look at it that way then every single thing we do is a waste of time.
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Arrogance I feel, is a common sin in gaming, both from players who want to feel like unique snowflakes not because of skill but because they had enough time to beat the RNG hamster Wheel, and from developers who insist on a philosophy that quite frankly didn't work from the get go.
 
 
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Moreover, I think we can agree that randomness does not equal challenge. In that same vein, every lottery game would be the ultimate challenge.
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And then they call you an entitled whiner and make disparaging comments about WoW. You can make a drinking game out of it.
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I agree, but our perspective that it has always been a grind so it's supposed to be a grind is not only outdated but detrimental to game design in general. We want newer and innovative games, but complain when familiar traits are not included in the final product. Seems a bit contradictory. Grinding for the sake of grinding is not fun, and grinding for a shot at an item you may or may not find useful is even more painful.
 
Moreover, I think we can agree that randomness does not equal challenge. In that same vein, every lottery game would be the ultimate challenge.
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Oh look, another rng complaint thread!
 
It's the way the game plays, and I'd suggest embracing it.
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I was writing a complaint thread regarding the RNG problem when I came across that article. I have been running Siege of Tempest Refuge for weeks at a chance to get that heavy tank chest. After 3 weeks of what started out as 5 to 7 runs a day and wound up as 2 or 3 it finally dropped. Then the RNG god came in with a middle finger and gave me 2 terrible sockets and a DPS engine rolled need and took it. I played wow for years from launch to the end of WoLK and EQ for many years before that. RNG and a grind aren't new to me but this game is something else.
 
It is as if the devs looked at what they made and decided their game lacked substance and decided to add as much RNG to it to try to keep subs. It doesn't work and they will soon see that. I am someone who loved to run dungeons, adventures count here too, and because their carrot is so full of insane odds it killed what should have been a fun experience for me. My wife and I cancelled and will play if we can get CREDD but it's not worth our money. I think the lottery has better odds at this point.	
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lol what grind? FFXI, that is a grind, EQ 1 & 2, grinds, EvE; logged out training grind... W*? You can hit 50 in a few days and get into raids in a week or two if you work at it full on.... Crafted gear is ok-enough to get you through pre-raid with some suplements from daily gear / open world / dungeon / adventure drops...
 
Where is the grind? 
 
Crafting end game is time gated with eldan data; but not much of a grind. took me 5 months to get cloth craft to 100 in XI leveling it full on... Technologist, architect, and weaponsmith took a combined 7 hours to cap. 
 
Where is the grind?
 
Seriously, is any amount of effort = grind today? 
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Surely even you must admit there's good RNG and bad RNG, and that Wildstar has some bad RNG that could do with fixing?
 
If not, we should just discount your comments.
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Surely even you must admit there's good RNG and bad RNG, and that Wildstar has some bad RNG that could do with fixing?
 
If not, we should just discount your comments.
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All I ever see is entitled whiners demanding the game work *only* like they expect and most other games have always done. I want players to look at the potential for being different.
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Ok, respectfully and In all seriousness, tell me you believe the Elder Gem grind is in the right place right now. Tell me tradeskill grinding for the hope of getting what you need, or for the friggin' circle to land where you want it, is in a comfortable place right now. I'm all for healthy discussion but you can't be this oblivious, man.
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Honestly, it's kinda cool that when my first 2 additives don't RNG perfect, I can toss in another additive to save the craft in many cases.... 
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Honestly, it's kinda cool that when my first 2 additives don't RNG perfect, I can toss in another additive to save the craft in many cases.... 
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Yes I do think that it is reasonable. Now I don't think it is 100% perfect, and I hope Carbine will make good on it's claims that more methods of recieving EG's directly from content (rather than Elder Point Conversions) will be implimented. As it stands, the EG vendor materials can indeed be obtained from other sources besides the Genesis key IIRC. 
 
As for crafting; I have Technologist; architect; and weaponsmith all at expert. I honestly don't mind the crafting system at all; it is much nicer than the XI version; where you waste a ton of money / time collecting materials only to have an arbitrary % of failure which destroys your mats and leaves you with nothing to show for it. I much prefer a partially RNG/ skill game using additives where a base item is guaranteed than an arbitrary break %. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it's steps above crafting in other MMO's I've played.
 
Honestly, it's kinda cool that when my first 2 additives don't RNG perfect, I can toss in another additive to save the craft in many cases.... 
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The complainers about Crafting are most probably coming from those who played WoW. No RNG at all. You have the mats, you craft exactly what it says you'll craft. So, you need to compare with that, as well as other games where the RNG is worse.
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The complainers about Crafting are most probably coming from those who played WoW. No RNG at all. You have the mats, you craft exactly what it says you'll craft. So, you need to compare with that, as well as other games where the RNG is worse.
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Does it keep being cool after the 10000th attempt?
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But hey, RNG right?
 
 
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Cut into a piece of lumber; hit a knot; lose your material.... 
 
Yea, actually IRL randomness can have a significant impact on what you build.
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RNG in loot is part of MMO, I don't see a real issue with the use of RNG for drops under normal circumstances and favor it more than dropping coins that allow you to buy the gear...
 
What I don't understand is how Carbine took RNG and applied it to pretty much everything else in this game. Different stats do different things for different class...really? RNG on item drop on top of RNG on stats, on top of RNG on rune slot type on top of RNG on # of slots?.......seriously? NOT TO MENTION RNG ON A LOOT TURNING WHITE AND USELESS AFTER LOOTING IT? GET YOU *cupcake* STRAIGHT CARBINE!. And finishing dungeons and adventures to meet Carbine's own ranking system doesn't mean much. I'm all for Adventures = blue drop and Dungeon = purple, and ranks in completion just increases those drops, 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop. The loot table is already big enough that chances of picking up a specific item you want is still a rare chance, but at least now there is a chance. Items are soulbound so there is no worry of flooding the market with items, and the items sells for crap, so no chance of flooding the market with gold. And it also creates a stable source for savage goods. Considering there are 2 (or was it 3?) other ranks of items for 20 and 40 men, I don't see how carbine does not set it up this way. Somehow they still think 1 hour dungeon runs should more often than not equate to no drops and a repair bill that could rivals the amount of gold you just made....
 
Even within the same item, slot RNG will keep people running it again for better slots. But at the moment, Getting 1 of any decent item is a mission on it's own, never mind Carbine's idea of having us farm multiples to get perfect slots. 
 
 
As for the Hardcore'ness of the game. it's meh. It's great that Carbine wants the game to cater to hardcore raiders. But I think somewhere along the line, they forget that ALL games need their share of casual contents. You want people to come in and have fun, NOT log on 3x a week for 2 hour sessions just for raid and never touch the game again in between raids. 
 
 
and crafting is a joke...I'm happy with discovery of items (even the frustrating bugs i can look past). But when RNG dictates that I can never land in the circle to craft what i need, it's kind of stupid. Rng can mix things up a bit so i need to pay attention and use different additives to reach the same goal, but It shouldn't give me 0% of reaching it regardless of what combination I use. I don't use an addon to craft so i actually look at what what i use. I can accept a few fails here and there. But i've gone thu 10 or so without being able to craft what i needed before (dam dailies).....(i believe crafting weapons and armors are different, haven't try those yet)
 
RNG in the process to a goal is fine, but the goal itself can not be RNG. Some people needing to put in more effort to reach the goal is fine, that's part of RNG. But they've got to somehow be able to reach it.
 
Remember at the end of the day, it's a game, with set goals that are suppose to be reachable. It don't have to be perfect, but at least reachable by those who put in the efforts.	
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Cut into a piece of lumber; hit a knot; lose your material.... 
 
Yea, actually IRL randomness can have a significant impact on what you build. Or how you can shape a material...
 
Also this is a game... If I wanted to play RL carpenter I would go to my shed and build something; not play wood simulator (tm protostar) in W*
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From a technical and gaming-wise concept, Carbine's idea of hardcore is so childlike it borders on cute. Many people have said it better than me, RNG is not hardcore, Gating is not hardcore, and while attunements are mechanisms that could indeed weed out the non-dedicated from the truly exceptional (maybe), making a player jump through unnecessary hoops that prove nothing of their skill, does not a hardcore game make.
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QFT
 
Annoying isn't hardcore. You want to weed out the unskilled and undetermined? Do it in a damn raid. Make a raid so hardcore that it replaces the time wasted on attunement. Let your customers actually play the game. The hardcore players you're supposedly catering to would no doubt prefer to be spending their time trying to finish a very difficult raid than jumping though arbitrary hoops. 
 
Attunement is an artificial and annoying roadblock you've put in to force players to play longer. I look around at all the 'My realm is dead' and 'Please merge servers' threads and gotta ask, 'how's that roadblock working out for ya?' I guarantee that if those players had been able to get to end game content faster they'd still be here. It's almost astounding to me how long players will do the same raid. It only makes sense. Hardcore players will do the same raid over and over, even when it's on farm, to gear up for the next raid down the road. And even if some of them did quit they'd be back for the next raid patch. But instead you drive them away with a road to raiding so full of speed bumps that they'd rather just go play something else. 
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Ok, now that the Normal Conversation can resume, : how would you address the ever-increasing RNG of the game? Perhaps the Devs could use some nudging. Although it's painful to see the lack of response to these and many other issues including the so-called Overexplainy Post Cougar was going to write about.
 
yes, yes I know, Gamescom is happening so it's essentially more important to show the shinies, but still, acknowledgement would be greatly appreciated.
			
				
	Edited August 12, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
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Hey all,
 
I went through and cleaned up this thread a bit. Please remember to keep discussions on topic and constructive. Discuss the idea, not the person posting it.	
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Hey all,
 
I went through and cleaned up this thread a bit. Please remember to keep discussions on topic and constructive. Discuss the idea, not the person posting it.
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			I'm a little confused as to why this thread stands as there are many many other RNG related threads to concentrate info and feedback in. It's just making it harder to follow and contribute to.	
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Eh, the RNG on challenges isn't a huge deal for me.  They're all repeatable anyhow and I think it's expected you'll do it a few times. I like that, the better you do, the greater your chances are of getting something good.
 
I could get behind, say, an automatic 100% choice upon hitting Gold, I suppose.	
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RNG isn't ever increasing; JTal is working to make the RNG in items more meaningful and less frustrating. Last I heard he is working to take the RNG out of high end item run slot #'s. As long as that's still the case it means RNG is only going to decrease.
 
The RNG in crafting is well done IMO compared to other crafting methods in different MMO's. WoW not withstanding, W* is an interesting take and step up from the crafting methods in D2, EQ, and FFXI.
There might be specific items that could use their positioning on the crafting dart board tweeked; or additive combinations that could use some rework; but the overall system is fairly interesting and more fun than arbitrary break % IMO.
 
I would say, as long as rune slot # gets taken off RNG, more rune sets & rune stats are made available for all rune types, and specific craft targets are updated, the RNG will be working as intended and would be fine IMO.
 
 
 	
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RNG isn't ever increasing; JTal is working to make the RNG in items more meaningful and less frustrating. Last I heard he is working to take the RNG out of high end item run slot #'s. As long as that's still the case it means RNG is only going to decrease.
 
The RNG in crafting is well done IMO compared to other crafting methods in different MMO's. WoW not withstanding, W* is an interesting take and step up from the crafting methods in D2, EQ, and FFXI.
There might be specific items that could use their positioning on the crafting dart board tweeked; or additive combinations that could use some rework; but the overall system is fairly interesting and more fun than arbitrary break % IMO.
 
I would say, as long as rune slot # gets taken off RNG, more rune sets & rune stats are made available for all rune types, and specific craft targets are updated, the RNG will be working as intended and would be fine IMO.
 
 
 
 
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The slot machine was put into place to give the player a bit of control over their odds of getting one item over another.  More traditionally there would be a hidden roll on this sort of reward and you would just get what ever you get.  There has always been RNG in MMOs.  I remember farming in WoW for rare pets and its a simple roll of the dice every time you kill a mob.  Why does it tick people off when they actually get to see the odds rolled out?  It makes me think that less information might be better.  I actually like seeing the odds rolled out personally.
 
I don't have a lot of experience with tech/arc and understand than they are way more involved that some of the other professions.  So as sort of a side note:  There is a large amount of RNG with crafted gear, which I think is awesome for the game and the economy of the game.  You can very easily craft a strong piece of gear with a few gold's worth of materials.  This allows those players that are badly in need of a item upgrade to cheaply replace something that sucks.  On the other hand there are these rune slots and also the ability to add a few extra stats in trade for that 1-20% chance to fail the craft and lose that item completely.  The # of rune slots that you get is random as well as the type.  If you are going for that super amazing piece you can sit there and craft the same item 100 times and pick out the best rune slot roll.  Now before you argue that this process is tedious and boring I want to point out that this action does a couple things that are good for the economy.  First it takes a lot of the farmed materials out of the game, improving the price for the players that farm them and second it rewards the players that spend their time going through the trouble of crafting 100 times by finally getting that super amazing piece.  Third it also allows players that don't wan to bother with crafting to pick up that crafters less than optimal pieces of gear for a deep discount. 
 
 
TLDR:  I think RNG in a crafting system is awesome, because it allows those people that love crafting and work hard on it, to be able to charge more for their time. 	
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Cut into a piece of lumber; hit a knot; lose your material.... 
 
Yea, actually IRL randomness can have a significant impact on what you build. Or how you can shape a material...
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The slot machine was put into place to give the player a bit of control over their odds of getting one item over another.  More traditionally there would be a hidden roll on this sort of reward and you would just get what ever you get.  There has always been RNG in MMOs.  I remember farming in WoW for rare pets and its a simple roll of the dice every time you kill a mob.  Why does it tick people off when they actually get to see the odds rolled out?  It makes me think that less information might be better.  I actually like seeing the odds rolled out personally.
 
I don't have a lot of experience with tech/arc and understand than they are way more involved that some of the other professions.  So as sort of a side note:  There is a large amount of RNG with crafted gear, which I think is awesome for the game and the economy of the game.  You can very easily craft a strong piece of gear with a few gold's worth of materials.  This allows those players that are badly in need of a item upgrade to cheaply replace something that sucks.  On the other hand there are these rune slots and also the ability to add a few extra stats in trade for that 1-20% chance to fail the craft and lose that item completely.  The # of rune slots that you get is random as well as the type.  If you are going for that super amazing piece you can sit there and craft the same item 100 times and pick out the best rune slot roll.  Now before you argue that this process is tedious and boring I want to point out that this action does a couple things that are good for the economy.  First it takes a lot of the farmed materials out of the game, improving the price for the players that farm them and second it rewards the players that spend their time going through the trouble of crafting 100 times by finally getting that super amazing piece.  Third it also allows players that don't wan to bother with crafting to pick up that crafters less than optimal pieces of gear for a deep discount. 
 
 
TLDR:  I think RNG in a crafting system is awesome, because it allows those people that love crafting and work hard on it, to be able to charge more for their time. 
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The slot machine was put into place to give the player a bit of control over their odds of getting one item over another.  More traditionally there would be a hidden roll on this sort of reward and you would just get what ever you get.  There has always been RNG in MMOs.  I remember farming in WoW for rare pets and its a simple roll of the dice every time you kill a mob.  Why does it tick people off when they actually get to see the odds rolled out?  It makes me think that less information might be better.  I actually like seeing the odds rolled out personally.
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Required AMPs (TF), AMP and skill point extenders?  Very much rent money. 
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First things first; Felix Baumgartner was not the first to break the sound barrier (the first was Capt. Kittinger back in the 60's)
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I find extra ability points required if i want to do builds using my classes natural synergies without being a drag on the group. I would love to do a rapid fire true shot build but with how t8 quick draw is so important it is required I can't actualy teir up both abilites to use them without being inneffective. The teir 8 flame burst would be nice except unteired ignite is trash and I can't teir up ignite high enough to be a spender without said ability point upgrades. The LAS system is designed so i can have variety in my builds is crippled because my builds are balanced around a full ability teir unlock setup. The teir 8s of those abilities give buffs or synergies on other abilities. If the fact basic builds fail due to lack of teir points doesn't make them required then what does.
 
Also coordnate crafting sucks. Having to manualy craft boosts is a pain because you only make around 2 at a time. Sure its easy to hit the target but having to manualy do it each time if i want to do a night of runs is just tedious. If the additives weren't RNG I could just mass craft it. Crafting it for myself is bad but crafting for guildmates and friends is way too much effort and time.	
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Slot machines are fun if you're not depending on them for rent money.  Rare pets?  Not rent money.  Required AMPs (TF), AMP and skill point extenders?  Very much rent money.  The frequency that you can iterate through Adventures, Dungeons and Raids is statistical noise compared to the frequency you can iterate through mobs.  Rampant RNG defines Korean grinders.
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AMPs, AMP pt and Skill pts can drop as BOE so you can essentially farm money in game and just buy the item that you want, rather than farm for the item itself.  Right now the most reliable way to get amp and skill points is to buy them with EG, or spend a large sum of plat for the BOE ones that drop from PVP bags.  Its super easy to farm money and EG in this game, so that is not locked behind RNG.
 
AMP and Skill points are super expensive right now because they're both rare and powerful.  They are not a necessary to you enjoying or succeeding through the game content but something that you will buy slowly over time as you cap your EG every week.  If they increase the drop rate, that would be awesome, but for right now having restrictions on these items keeps people playing the game.  The last thing an MMO wants to have is no more carrots to chase.
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			One thing about players yelling at new players - there is a reason (among others) WOW is on a steady decline and no uptick whatsoever.  One of the biggest complaints is about all the a-holes in the game.  That last uptick in subs were players who already played the game adding a second account to get a new mount (not a sudden miraculous increase in new players).  New players do NOT hang very long as everyone is a hardcore expert and complete a-hole.  in the last two year (out of 7) I have yet to do a raid without a few players going off on the new players.  It would be a very bad thing for this game if that is already the case two months in.  If the raids are so insanely hard and most new players can't do it all perfectly - don't expect to grow very fast.	
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There is definitely good and bad RNG, and WildStar has put it in places we haven't seen before in an MMORPG to some extent. I think players are overreacting to it for the most part instead of looking at the different gameplay options it could possibly provide. Maybe there's a layer of a system where we have a chance to control some of that randomness, through progression... but not all of it.
All I ever see is entitled whiners demanding the game work *only* like they expect and most other games have always done. I want players to look at the potential for being different.
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Having restrictions on these items keeps people playing the game
 
You think people will stand for nine months of grinding?  Lay off the peyote man.  Most people are burnt out on the dailies after a couple weeks.
 
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Have you played MMOs before?  One of the big parts of these games that keeps people playing is to work on your characters progression.  Making your character more and more powerful as the months go by is one of the biggest things that keep people playing.  I remember similar grinds in other games, some parts of the grind were fun and others were not so fun.
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