Report 209

Report #209
Skillset: Druidry Skill: Cudgel
 Org: Ninjakari Status: Completed Jul 2009
Furies' Decision:
Will check summon resistance.
Problem: Raise cudgel is an indiscriminate room wide ability that stuns an
entire group and moves them into trees. When combined with zero power treebane
(which hits your entire enemy list and costs 0p), it allows a druid to very
easily separate an entire group continuously. Furthermore, multiple druids can
keep raising and stunning anyone on the ground while a group of allies in trees
(who are not impacted) are able to attack during a lengthy multiple person stun.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Raise cudgel should be a targeted ability like
 Geomancer twirl staff. This would not impact druids
 1-on-1, but it would deal with the mass separation in
 group combat.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Raise cudgel should check summoning resistance. While
 less favorable, this ability is forced movement and
 it should be subject to force movement consequences
 given it hits an entire room (like currents,
 whirlpool, rad rune, etc).
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3:
Player Comments:
---[Nienla on 7/23 @ 23:37 writes]:
While I disagree, I believe that Solution #2 would be more favorable. You can't
compare Geo Staff Twirl to Raise Cudgel, honestly. I'm in favour of Solution #2
if it comes down to it, the stun should remain whether the target is moved or
not, however. Geo Staff Twirl's aff will always hit regardless, Raise Cudgel
should be given the same privledge.
---[Nienla on 7/24 @ 00:00 writes]:
Affixing a comment from Shuyin, "Group Cudgel could have a power cost on it
similar to Group Ecto. 1 vs 1 Druid Cudgel Raise will cost no power, Group
Cudgel could cost 2-3p." I also agree with this solution.
---[Alban on 7/24 @ 00:04 writes]:
I think both solutions seem all right. It is a bit ridiculous that one person
can mess groups up that badly...sort of similar to the carcer argument...
Solution 3 could be something like what happened to Contagion. Raise cudgel
could be free versus 1 person, cost more power for 3 people, and a lot of power
for an entire room.
---[Alban on 7/24 @ 00:05 writes]:
I meant to say ectoplasm, not contagion.
---[Nienla on 7/24 @ 00:07 writes]:
I'd be in favour of Raise Cudgel costing 3p for an entire room. Any more than
that is pretty outrageous.
---[Nienla on 7/24 @ 00:09 writes]:
This being because it also effects the caster.
---[Alban on 7/24 @ 00:58 writes]:
It effects the caster in a good way. heh
---[Krellan on 7/24 @ 01:35 writes]:
Cudgel is not comparable to ectoplasm or even pre ectoplasm because ectoplasm
only affected enemies. cudgel will stun and raise all persons in a room. Not
only that, but the equilibrium on it is long enough while the stun is short
enough that the people raised can easily leave. On the other hand, should a
single druid raise cudgel on an enemy group, the enemy group need only all
target the druid as soon as stun wears off. The druid will still be off
equilibrium by that time. In addition to allies sitting in trees, the other
group can also go through trees. It seems that the problem isn't actually raise
cudgel, but it's treebane, which is already limited by the fact that only the
demesne user may cast it on all unshielded enemies in a demesne for no power. If
anything, add a small treebane demesne power. I also dislike many of these not
affecting 1v1 arguments because most of Lusternia is group combat related. Team
work wins combat. We can't simply nerf every good combination of attacks into
the ground unless you wish group fighting to merely become a battle of group
size and damage output rate.
---[Romero on 7/24 @ 05:08 writes]:
This change could go even further I believe and I am fully in favor of solution
1. Solution 2 just doesn't go far enough unless implemented with solution one so
that you can do target without cost and untargetted for power cost. This is
because a single druid can effectively stop avatar attacks by entering the room
and doing raise cudgel to split the group up. Also, in a recent two vs one
druid. A druid was able to effectively raise cudgel the two repeatedly, using
the stun to allow affects to set in, then sap. Hexagram would never beat the
druid, the two attackers would be lifted into trees, stunned, immediately climb
down, and be restunned before they could even hexagram or just barely hexagram,
only to fail and be back in the trees stunned again. Druids far too easy with
their saplock which requires no strategy as long as they have demense effects up
to do the rest, unlike mages who actively have to use some sense of skill to
earn a kill. This change is well deserved and should be the start of many.
---[Romero on 7/24 @ 05:10 writes]:
And I would like to highlight that I said this was a two on one against the
druid with both attempting to get the druid out, it was near impossible while
fighting against druid raise cudgel stun. The druid died only by being crucified
in their trees to stop their movement.
---[Nienla on 7/24 @ 15:38 writes]:
Your information is false. The reason you keep getting stunned repeatedly is
because your system makes you climb down repeatedly. Yes, you're naturally going
to keep getting stunned. If you stay in the trees briefly and attack the Druid,
you're in far better shape. You can also move and beckon them out and so forth.
And sorry, Saplock is not as easy as you make it sound. I don't believe you have
the ability to call it easy since you've never been a Druid or a Mage to my
knowledge.
---[Krellan on 7/24 @ 18:46 writes]:
Exactly what Nienla said and I find your comment hilarious as you make it sound
like the druid won, when the druid still ended up dying. Oh no, this OP skill
did -not- kill me so let's nerf it?
---[Gregori on 7/24 @ 23:13 writes]:
I don't see a need for this change.
---[Xenthos on 7/24 @ 23:26 writes]:
"A single druid can effectively stop avatar attacks with this"? That's why you
use Greater Pentagram. In fact, that's why you have used greater pentagram. A
full minute to kill Avatars without -any- effective interference from defenders
at all. Also: I really don't see why you need to auto climb down. You should
only be climbing down based on situation. If there are two of you against a
Druid, I'd hope that one of you can kick the Druid a bit if the other gets
sapped, and the other can actually... cure it. Also, I've never seen a saplock
that doesn't require strategy. Hartstone strategy is pretty darned easy with
sticking a stagstomp in there after it, but it's still more than "sap" and hope
the demesne ticks...
---[Ceren on 7/25 @ 10:24 writes]:
Repeated stuns are less a matter of auto climbing down (I know my system doesn't
on raise cudgel) and more a matter of 0p demesne wide treebane. A druid's allies
can avoid the stun by waiting in the trees to beat the living daylights out of
the stunned group that comes up, and really the difference between the stun time
and the equilibrium cost on raise cudgel is at most 1 second.
---[Ceren on 7/25 @ 10:30 writes]:
Btw, the single druid anti-avatar raid thing is a true story. Whole group gets
stunned and pulled up, and then the first people to climb down or get blown out
by wind instantly die to the full strength avatar (people in trees don't count
for weakening). Greatpent serves as a counter, but not nearly a perfect one. It
won't do you much good against a druid waiting in the trees at the avatar with
perch/twirl cudgel so you can't get them down, and then he just raises cudgel
and ends the raid (and that'll also knock out greatpent because it moves you).
Wisp will also take out a greatpent since we're assuming trees here, and rad for
that matter.
---[Xenthos on 7/25 @ 13:47 writes]:
... there is -no- wind on Ethereal, Ceren. None whatsoever. You won't get
blown down by wind. In fact, there is no wind anywhere off-Prime. Further, all
of Glom's avatars (at least) are at points that will always be breakpoints if
you wanted to kill Maeve, so even if it was demesned... well, trees can be
stripped by Geos at will (not aquas, I don't really know why). Rad's an option,
unless you have your GreatPenter just use pentagram... which, if you've got a
decent raid group, only makes sense. The single-person GreatPent avatar thing
is a true story as well. And yes, I will agree that the larger issue in group
fight is the treebane part of it.
---[Nienla on 7/25 @ 23:07 writes]:
I agree with Xenthos' comments above. There is no wind in trees. You may be
getting knocked out by Sylph, if anything, but there is no natural wind outside
of Prime.
---[Ceren on 7/27 @ 07:21 writes]:
God damn, it must have been a sylph. Good call.