Report 314

Report #314
Skillset: Tarot Skill: Empress
 Org: Ebonguard Status: Completed Feb 2010
Furies' Decision:
Empressing both allies and lusted people will work equally.
Problem: With Empress, when a person is allied to you, you can only summon them
to the same local area as yourself. However, if they are lusted to you, you can
summon them anywhere upon the Plane. This leads to abusive tactics such as
running around on Ethereal until love potion ticks, hermitting to a prepared
demesne in the Catacombs of the Dead behind a locked door, and placing a flamed
monolith. Then throw in shrine-effects such as gravity. If the person is
rejecting, the goal is to afflict them just enough that they don't reject before
you recover equilibrium from hermiting to your death-trap. On the whole, it's a
tactic that is completely un-necessary and non-beneficial to anyone, and its
abuse means that the skill needs to be examined.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Make the Lust portion of Empress work area-only, just
 like the Ally version.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Swap the two conditions, and make it "mutual allies"
 for the continent-wide version. Ally status cannot
 be passively forced by such things as Love potion,
 and can be unallied even while off-equilibrium.
Player Comments:
---[Viynain on 2/18 @ 01:28 writes]:
I support solution 2. It makes sense for the mutual ally aspect to be the
stronger form of the summon of the two.
---[Jael on 2/18 @ 03:23 writes]:
This particular tactic requires a complicated setup, hermits, flamed monoliths,
shrine powers, rejecting, failing summoning resistance, and a whole host of
other miscellaneous variables. Empress already has three conditions for it to be
global: 1) the target cannot be shielded 2) the target must be lusted 3) Neither
the target nor the caster may be on a monolith sigil. It also checks summoning
resistance. Additionally, Hermit has a 4 second balance cost upon casting. As
such, you do not arrive on balance. Is it really possible for love potion to
tic, hermit, and then empress someone instantly? Also, no afflictions hinder
rejecting except being asleep. You can reject while prone, webbed, paralysed,
etc.
---[Xenthos on 2/18 @ 04:19 writes]:
I'm fully aware that this is a near-and-dear subject to you, Narsrim, but yeah.
I think my solutions are perfectly reasonable. Especially solution 2. Your
response doesn't change anything. Further, my problem specifically states that
you can't reject while off-equilibrium (or off-balance either), which you
attempt to bypass in your response without addressing.
---[Romero on 2/19 @ 02:23 writes]:
I don't know anyone who is using these tactics to this level but I do know that
most system automatically reject a person making empress near useless most of
the time. Love potion is something that a person puts up on their own regard and
putting it set for mutual ally is just a bad idea as it completely negates the
skill. Solution 1 is abysmal and making it so you can unally even off
equilibrium would have vast effects of just ruining lust throughout the game for
druids/mages and the like. If the person is hermiting than you have more than
enough time to reject. And honestly I don't see these tactics used. This sounds
like a perfect deathtrap and you can't blame the skills for that, that would be
equivilent for trying to nerf summon because you got pulled into a choke/pinleg
gank.
---[Xenthos on 2/19 @ 02:29 writes]:
Summon gives you a nice long time to move away, empress is an instant-cast with
no warning or anything that it is occurring. There is a pretty large difference
between the two. And, yes, it is being used this way as we speak, heh. There
is a nice little rift into a locked area in the Catacombs at a Raezon shrine
that gets itself put up back up whenever it is dropped. Beneath a closed and
locked door. With monoliths all over to avoid getting out, etc, etc. It is
being abused in this manner, or the report wouldn't be up. It's one of those
things where, unfortunately, gross abuse requires a slight change in the
mechanic. However, I believe that the solutions (and especially solution 2) are
perfectly acceptable as they leave the utility of the skill intact (you can use
it as a defensive measure, to rescue allies, etc), but addresses the aspect
being abused.
---[Xenthos on 2/19 @ 02:31 writes]:
Also, I notice that you say "Making it so you can unally when off-eq would have
vast effects"-- I think you have mis-read. Ally is not the same as lust. You
can already ally / unally while off-balance and off-equilibrium. It's lust
(rejecting) that you cannot do, and I'm not suggesting that change. Simply that
the two sides swap around (so the lust-version works in-area, mutual ally works
plane-wide).
---[Jael on 2/21 @ 04:01 writes]:
No real problem has been named by this report. To quote this report, "the goal
is to afflict them just enough that they don't reject before you recover
equilibrium from hindering," -- this as stated isn't possible. NO AFFLICTIONS
prevent rejecting. There is absolutely nothing that a Nihilist, Celestine,
Cantor, or Cacophony can do that prevents rejecting. Also, Hermit has a -4-
second balance cost upon casting. Therefore if you lust someone and then hermit,
they have at least 4 seconds to reject.
---[Jael on 2/21 @ 04:01 writes]:
The rest of the problems in this report are unfounded and/or incorrect. You
cannot hermit if standing in a room with a monolith sigil or into a room with a
monolith sigil. You cannot empress someone standing on a monolith sigil or into
a room with a monolith sigil. Love potion fires every 20 seconds with a 50%
chance to lust the target to you (the other 50% it lusts you to the target). As
stated above, no afflictions prevent rejecting. This is a tactic that has been
seen in IRE games for over a decade and has always been something deemed easily
managed. There is no circumstance in Lusternia that makes this any different -
in fact, Lusternia took extra steps to make it EASIER to handle. If you try to
reject someone to whom you are not lusted, you do not lose equilibrium.
---[Xenthos on 2/21 @ 05:15 writes]:
Yes, Jael, we know what Narsrim thinks. We know he will twist comments to try
to say something was said, when it never said that in the first place (I mean,
the problem even states that the monoliths are removed and then replaced after
the empress). Further, there are afflictions which muck with both equilibrium
and balance recovery time, as both you and Narsrim well know. So, at this
point, I have a question for you, Jael (and not Narsrim): What is the problem
with the solutions? Most especially solution 2? It fixes the abuse created by
putting a fort in the Catacombs and locking it down. Obviously Narsrim wants to
keep that. Beyond that-- it still lets people use Empress to summon a lusted
person in the area, or to get mutual allies plane-wide. Why do -you- see a
problem here?
---[Fillin on 2/21 @ 05:34 writes]:
I personally have not had much problem with this tactic (coming from someone who
fought it in the days where you could be empressed into Supernals). If the guy
leaves your room, you just need to reject or jump on a monolith. Sometimes I
would panic and shield, but that's all good because it gets you enough time to
reject. Also solution 2 seems kind of awkward. Could lead to situations where
having love potion up would strip your regular ally status, and that sort of
thing.
---[Xenthos on 2/21 @ 05:36 writes]:
Ilaveuse was actually talking about fixing that this month, actually-- making it
so that love potion ticking wouldn't over-ride ally status. He hasn't replaced
his idea yet so I'm not sure if he's going with that or a headslam thing. That
one's a valid point, but I would just see that as a negative side effect to love
potion at this point unless it's changed.
---[Fillin on 2/21 @ 05:39 writes]:
By the way, I've heard the priest Nigelo in the isle of the forgotten will
empress you away from your group into a room with no exits. Nerf.
---[Romero on 2/22 @ 07:51 writes]:
You can't ascend from him either because it counts as a 'archway' room. I ate
two enemy territory deaths there.
---[Xenthos on 2/22 @ 22:24 writes]:
I was taking Ceren's comment as a joke, as that's obviously not a use of Empress
but an NPC mobprog that moves you with an empress-like message. It's a bit more
difficult when someone chimes in in "support" of it, though. :P
---[Romero on 2/25 @ 00:17 writes]:
Indeed. It was an added part to the joke.