122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-4

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I have never asked to replace raids or any other content, I just feel we need more diverse content that incorporate other play styles besides raids.  I am sure that raiders have done shiphands and omnicore.  there is room for both.  and I do group with people from time to time, but that does not mean I should have to group with people all the time. Nor does it mean that I should have to group to progress my character. 
 
Solo content is not a gimick, or convenience, its just another way to have fun in a Massive game, where you have Multiplayers to compare achievements and socialize with,  and of course we are going to do all this fun stuff Online!
 
people like progression of one type or the other, there just needs to be multiple ways to progress.
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Character progression, in terms of strength, in MMO end game should always be tied to multiplayer content.
 
You are suggesting to trivialize raids through solo content and that just cannot happen in an MMO, why don't you people get this? The only way single player content in a multiplayer focused game works is if it rewards you in completely different areas (mount and flairs, housing items, reputation, pets, costumes, AMP/Ability points, entry level gear, etc). There is no other way without seriously damaging the much more crucial multiplayer aspects of a multiplayer game.
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What I have liked is that one can see the story line solo via Omni-Core but do agree that the rewards should meet the investment and some rewards are special so that people can honestly show them off and have people cheer them on (even if a bit green with envy). Do agree that one should be able to see all parts of the story even if it is just as a spectator who is hiding in a well hidden spot who earns no rewards except for seeing what all is going on. Have seen a few games that allowed one to view a battle (usually was pvp) after the fact.
 
Sometimes we know we will never get there ourselves but it is enjoyable to see others succeed.	
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why is group content more crucial?
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lol, are you even serious anymore?!
 
You can't be serious, right...
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Character progression, in terms of strength, in MMO end game should always be tied to multiplayer content.
 
You are suggesting to trivialize raids through solo content and that just cannot happen in an MMO, why don't you people get this? The only way single player content in a multiplayer focused game works is if it rewards you in completely different areas (mount and flairs, housing items, reputation, pets, costumes, AMP/Ability points, entry level gear, etc). There is no other way without seriously damaging the much more crucial multiplayer aspects of a multiplayer game.
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I have always personally been under the opinion that EVERYONE playing an MMO should have access to the highest end rewards.
 
However, based upon your style of play, they WAY you get those rewards should be different.
 
IMHO opinion, I think that if you are going to solo or not going to group as much, your way should be a much more grindy, representing the massive personal effort someone would have to put in to be able to gain access to some of this higher end stuff
 
And on the flip side, if you are going to group or raid, your way should be much more flashy, representing your commitment to conquer the well designed and planned instances and raids that the devs spent so much time on making as cool as possible.
 
Both methods can be fun. I personally love Veteran Shiphands and would happily run them over and over again a hundred times. If I could make some progress towards some advanced gear by doing so, then that's cool too. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that.
 
But I think the OP has a point, that ultimately, the selling point of Wildstar is challenge. Whatever we do in this game, be it solo or group play, it should be extremely challenging for the best rewards. Currently, the Vet Shiphands are a little too easy and I'd love to see more difficult versions of stuff like that myself.	
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At this point I think it's pretty clear that you've made your somewhat narrow definition of what an MMO 'should' be.  You have shown time and time again that your only definition of multiplayer involves a very narrow scope of group play. You're not even willing to consider other views or definitions.   And that's ok, because everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
However, this discussion is about ways to potentially implement or design solo content that provides real challenge on the same level, or even MORE difficult, than raid content, and having rewards based on that.  I'm sorry that you can not see the possibility. However, that does NOT mean it doesn't exist, or that it's impossible!  
 
While I can not stop you from further replying to this thread, I would ask that you at least attempt to provide more substance to your arguments other than "It's impossible!"   or "It would ruin raids!"   or "It's not multiplayer!"    Why don't you try telling us WHY you believe that would happen? Because several posts have already outlined ways in which it could be done without the consequence that you seem bent on, as well as providing real examples of MMOs that refute your own definition. 
 
But let me go ahead and try a different tack: 
 
We already have Veteran Ship missions.  For the most part people consider them a little too easy, but still highly enjoyable!  Are veteran ship hands trivializing the content at the same level? Are people not running adventures or dungeons because of them?  
 
Now imagine if there was another level above veteran ship hands that actually provided EXTREME difficulty, even for someone in veteran adventure/dungeon level gear.  And what if that level of ship hand could only drop loot(with the same RNG as everything else) once per week. Would that ruin raiding, or trivialize it? Do you think people would stop raiding and only run those extreme ship hands? Or would it be more likely that they'd do both, especially if their raid group was having trouble downing bosses?   Wouldn't it also create a larger pool of raid ready players in case you needed to recruit?  And wouldn't the challenge and enjoyment of overcoming such exceptionally difficult content have some value on it's own?
 
Now, this is just an example I pulled out of thin air. I freely admit that it's not a perfect comparison.  But consider that if I could come up with this on the spur of the moment, what could a dedicated and professional game design team come up with?   It should at least illustrate the POSSIBILITY of competitive solo content that doesn't wreck raids. 
 
 
 
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If you want the gear etc from solo to be as good as raids then it's going to have to be as difficult to complete.  Which means it needs to be really really really hard.
 
I'll pose one question to you with that point in mind:
 
How do you balance the same content for 6 different classes to solo?
 
This isn't a gigantic company with resources coming out of their backsides to chuck a team at each to develop separate instances for each class etc.	
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Jix, Seraph, Treysaac... So let me get this right here by distilling down your posts to their basic essence.  You want raid level Legendary and Elden gear without all the challenge of working with others?
 
This is in essence what you are asking for. The ability to get what 20 other people have worked hard for without the mess or need to deal with 19 other people to do it. You want "Easymode" for raid level gear. What would be the point in raids if you get the gear without having to work with others in the first place? There wouldn't be one. You want to by-pass all that content to make it easier for you to not have to work with others. That's what all these "Give me raid level gear without having to raid" posts are about.	
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Having fun and challenging content is crucial, group content is not the only way to achieve that.
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I had no idea that multiplayer content was so fragile
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Because it is not a solo game, it's a MULTIPLAYER game. It should focus on getting players to play together, help each other clear content. Every minute a dev has to spend creating some single player content can't be used to bring people together in a new instance or raid.
 
Raid bosses you can't possibly beat alone are the driving force behind every single MMO on the market and ever created. It's their main selling point.
If you could get from 0 to BiS all by yourself in an MMO and never need to step in group content then what's the point? MMOs are all about playing in groups, meeting new people, beating content together.
It doesn't matter how difficult you can make the solo experience, it should not be encouraged to play alone all the time. If you want to do that then an MMO is simply not your type of game.
 
 
They'd have to come up with a whole new set of lore just to explain why your character would ignore everything going on around Nexus and how he/she can become so strong without ever facing any of the terrifyingly strong creatures threatening Nexus.
 
What the devs should try to accomplish is making actual group content more accessible to the playerbase. WoW does it alright with their raid finder + reduced difficulty and that's exactly what Wildstar needs.
Random shiphands are a great addition to the game, it allows for quick queues, fast paced, 3-5 player content with no spec or gear requirements, just hop in and have some fun, meet new people and earn some nice rewards (Gold, dyes, housing items mostly).
It's the perfect casual experience.
 
Devs should rather work on bringing more groups together than pulling them apart with single player content bypassing the premise of the game and the genre.
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			Okay lets go over this again.  There is a simple reason why solo content can never be as hard as 5 man tuned to the same level or 10 or 25 or 40.  Assuming each takes the same level of play the higher the number of the points of failure the more difficult the content will be.  Same reason that Blizzard went with 20 man as their prog mode instead of 10.  It also allows a designer to be much more creative, when it isn't just one person.  I suggest looking for pugs they are often going on at night and most are pretty decent some even kill Ohmna.	
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We've already been over this earlier in the thread.  I am not a game designer, however off the top of my head I would point out that every class can DPS. You start with that common core, and expand upon that.  Include challenges that don't attempt to mimic raid encounters, which are traditionally heavy on large single bosses with hits that only a tank with a dedicated healer can survive.  Use time-based objectives, defense of NPCs, puzzles, races, etc.  Put the emphasis on skillful control and execution and timing rather than brute force.  
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limited only to your narrow vision
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There is no point to discuss what an MMO should be.
They are clearly defined in what they are supposed to be:
 
 
 
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 	Common featuresAlthough modern MMORPGs sometimes differ dramatically from their antecedents, many of them share some basic characteristics. These include several common features: persistent game environment, some form of progression, social interaction within the game, in-game culture, system architecture, membership in a group, and character customization.	ThemesThe majority of popular MMORPGs are based on traditional fantasy themes, often occurring in an in-game universe comparable to that of Dungeons & Dragons. Some employ hybrid themes that either merge or substitute fantasy elements with those of science fiction, sword and sorcery, or crime fiction. Still others draw thematic material from American comic books, the occult, and other genres. Often these elements are developed using similar tasks and scenarios involving quests, monsters, and loot.	ProgressionIn nearly all MMORPGs, the development of the player's character is a primary goal. Nearly all MMORPGs feature a character progression system in which players earn experience points for their actions and use those points to reach character "levels", which makes them better at whatever they do.[7] Traditionally, combat with monsters and completing quests for NPCs, either alone or in groups, are the primary ways to earn experience points. The accumulation of wealth (including combat-useful items) is also a way to progress in many MMORPGs, and again, this is traditionally best accomplished via combat. The cycle produced by these conditions, combat leading to new items allowing for more combat with no change in gameplay, is sometimes pejoratively referred to as the level treadmill, or "grinding". The role-playing game Progress Quest was created as a parody of this trend. Eve Online trains skills in real time rather than using experience points as a meter of progression.
In some MMORPGs, there is no limit to a player’s level, allowing the grinding experience to continue indefinitely. MMORPGs that use this model often glorify top ranked players by displaying their avatars on the game’s website or posting their stats on a high score screen. Another common practice is to enforce a maximum reachable level for all players, often referred to as a cap. Once reached, the definition of a player’s progression changes. Instead of being awarded primarily with experience for completing quests and dungeons, collecting money and equipment will replace the player’s motivation to continue playing.
Often, the widened range of equipment available at the maximum level will have increased aesthetic value to distinguish high ranking players in game. Colloquially known as endgame gear, this set of empowered weapons and armor adds a competitive edge to both scripted boss encounters as well as player vs. player combat. Player motivation to outperform others is fueled by acquiring such items and is a significant determining factor in their success or failure in combat related situations.
Also, traditional in the genre is the eventual demand on players to team up with others in order to progress at the optimal rate. This sometimes forces players to change their real-world schedules in order to "keep up" within the game-world. A good example of this is the need to trade items to achieve certain goals, or teaming up to kill a powerful enemy.[citation needed]	Social InteractionMain article: Social Interaction via MMORPGs
MMORPGs almost always have tools to facilitate communication between players. Many MMORPGs offer support for in-game guilds or clans (though these will usually form whether the game supports them or not).
In addition, most MMOs require some degree of teamwork for parts of the game. These tasks usually require players to take on roles in the group, such as those protecting other players from damage (called tanking), "healing" damage done to other players or damaging enemies.
MMORPGs generally have Game Moderators or Game Masters (frequently abbreviated to GM), who may be paid employees or unpaid volunteers who attempt to supervise the world. Some GMs may have additional access to features and information related to the game that are not available to other players and roles.[8] Based on Aristotle’s theory regarding the perfect relationship, relationships created in MMORPGs aren’t much different from those created in the physical world. According to this theory, intimacy and mutual caring are the two important aspects of friendship and MMORPGs allow them to develop through shared activity among participants.	RoleplayingMost MMORPGs provide different types of classes that players can choose. Among those classes, a small portion of players choose to roleplay their characters, and there are rules that provide functionality and content to this end. Community resources such as forums and guides exist in support of this play style.
For example, if a player wants to play a priest role in his MMORPG world, he might buy a cope from a shop and learn priestly skills, proceeding to speak, act, and interact with others as their character would. This may or may not include pursuing other goals such as wealth or experience. Guilds or similar groups with a focus on roleplaying may develop extended in-depth narratives using the setting and resources of the game world.	CultureOver time, the MMORPG community has developed a sub-culture with its own slang and metaphor, as well as an unwritten list of social rules and taboos. Players will often complain about 'grind' (a slang term for any repetitive, time-consuming activity in an MMORPG), or talk about 'buffs' and 'nerfs' (respectively an upgrade or downgrade of a particular game mechanic). Social rules exist for such things as invitations to join an adventuring party, the proper division of treasure, and how a player is expected to behave while grouped with other players.
Debate rages in various gaming media over the long-term impact of video game overuse. The On-Line Gamers Anonymous forums are filled with stories of players that have neglected social, employment and/or family responsibilities in favor of their 'virtual lives'.	System architectureMost MMORPGs are deployed using a client–server system architecture. The server software generates a persistent instance of the virtual world that runs continuously, and players connect to it via client software. The client software may provide access to the entire playing world, or further 'expansions' may be required to be purchased to allow access to certain areas of the game. EverQuest and Guild Wars are two examples of games that use such a format. Players generally must purchase the client software for a one-time fee, although an increasing trend is for MMORPGs to work using pre-existing "thin" clients, such as a web browser.[citation needed]
Some MMORPGs require payment of a monthly subscription to play. By nature, "massively multiplayer" games are always online, and most require some sort of continuous revenue (such as monthly subscriptions and advertisements) for maintenance and development. Some games, such as Guild Wars have disposed of the 'monthly fee' model entirely, and recover costs directly through sales of the software and associated expansion packs. Still others adopt a micropayment model where the core content is free, but players are given the option to purchase additional content, such as equipment, aesthetic items, or pets. Games that make use of this model often have originated in Korea, such as Flyff and MapleStory. This business model is alternately called "pay for perks" or "freemium", and games using it often describe themselves with the term "free-to-play".
Depending on the number of players and the system architecture, an MMORPG might actually be run on multiple separate servers, each representing an independent world, where players from one server cannot interact with those from another; World of Warcraft is a prominent example, with each separate server housing several thousand players. In many MMORPGs the number of players in one world is often limited to around a few thousand, but a notable example of the opposite is EVE Online which accommodates several hundred thousand players on the same server, with over 60,000 playing simultaneously (June 2010[9]) at certain times. Some games allow characters to appear on any world, but not simultaneously (such as Seal Online: Evolution), others limit each character to the world in which it was created. World of Warcraft has experimented with "cross-realm" (i.e. cross-server) interaction in PvP "battlegrounds", using server clusters or "battlegroups" to co-ordinate players looking to participate in structured PvP content such as the Warsong Gulch or Alterac Valley battlegrounds.[10] Additionally, patch 3.3, released on December 8, 2009, introduced a cross-realm "looking for group" system to help players form groups for instanced content (though not for open-world questing) from a larger pool of characters than their home server can necessarily provide.[11]
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I have no problem with this in a specific circumstance and a very good reason why this shouldn't happen.
 
Solo games build progression off INTENSELY long grinds.  Whereas multiplayer games like Wildstar can keep you playing just so you can play with your friends and difficulty can be scaled through the group (i.e., you have to have multiple people performing well in differing roles), solo play games simply do not have that.  The game itself is limited in how it can tune difficulty (because one person has to have all the necessary tools).  It can be done that solo progression can be integrated, but there are several caveats:
 
Solo progression gear CANNOT be raid gear.  Raid gear is highly specialized and will always outperform any solo gear in their fields.  To that end, solo gear will NEVER compare to raid gear, simply because real raid gear assumes a specialization of labor.  A DPS in a raid doesn't need to heal himself or tank damage.  A tank doesn't need to do incredible damage.  Solo gear would need to fill the "empty role" even if the class doesn't have the ability to do it themselves and, if applied to other group content, creates a character that may be able to survive via sheer survivability on certain mechanics that assume DPS and healers don't have survivability.
 
So if this happens, not only does this directly affect raid tuning (because they have to account for someone who could break those certain mechanics) but it also means solo progression gear still won't perform well enough in any of those roles to specialize.  So solo gear on a raid-level of progression will both create a non-raid element future raids have to consider, but also that solo gear won't fulfill people who will know that any raider is still out-damaging, out-healing, and out-tanking them in specific fields.  So "raid level solo gear" is still likely not going to make a lot of solo players happy because their hard work will be entirely self-contained.
 
It's also an issue of time and effort.  Putting together "raid level solo progression" means having to tune it.  How best to reward the people who spend the time, effort, and patience to run with 20 people?  It took eight months to kill Avatus, and even after the DS20 conversion, progression still stands at 2 guilds who have cleared Avatus.  What could be expected for solo efforts if this is what is expected from the people putting actual effort into the group aspect of the game?  It will surely need to be far longer.  EVE Online does something like this by allowing you to raise yourself to the level it takes to work every single thing in the game by yourself, but we're talking about YEARS of effort.  That's likely not going to make solo players happy either.
 
One of the reasons this may not be an issue, though, is that the premise of this article is flawed.  Veteran Shiphands are not raid-caliber experiences, yet they are extremely popular and lauded additions to the game.  My entire guild loves doing them; they're fun to do between larger and harder group content, they're scalar, they're fun.  All of these are the niche role solo and small group play can bring to the table.  Veteran Shiphands may not be handing out GA level gear, and there may not be a progression, but they act as a mortar between the bricks of harder content, things you can do alone, with a small group of friends (and they are often done with a small group rather than solo in the guild).  Solo "progression" may be a red herring, but solo play has a role to fill.  Right now, I think it's found that role.
 
Unfortunately, if you're looking for raid-level gear, you're not going to actually get "raid-level" gear.  A raid assumes a division of resources for coordination.  Playing solo simply means you will never have to do what a raider needs to do.  I doubt anyone would actually be happy with solo progression gear because if a raid is still well-designed and accounts for this, that player's progression would STILL not make them a viable role-player in a raid.	
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This is a fascinating thread. The perspectives are interesting. I find myself neutral because I think that everyone is arguing the wrong point...
 
 
 
The viewpoints are heavily polarized, but people don’t realize what they are REALLY arguing about. 
 
 
 
This is not about Solo Content vs Hard Core Raid Content. This is an argument about elite gear. Not about who gets it, but about the fact that gear is the reward at all.
 
 
Having gear as the goal, makes gear the goal. Thus, hardcore raiding is the only realistic design path to obtain it. And if 90% of the population can't mathematically reach the goal, that persons subscription has a limited life. It is only a matter of time before they do all possible content and unsub. Not complaining, it is just a fact. This is why WoW and others have gone the direction they’ve gone…to feed and retain the masses.
 
 
Here’s a reality about the next great MMO…It will focus on PvE, and throw out the concepts of elite gear, hardcore raiding and PvP. Like hardcore raiding,  PvP has a limited audience. Another thing about PvP that has not ever been discussed anywhere…PvP injects design constraints that limits the PvE experience. (The reciprocal of that is true as well)
 
 
The next great MMORPG will make their game about skill and fun. They will make content available to everyone and throw out the concepts of hardcore raiding, gear and PvP . They will allow a scaling effect that will allow lowbies and experienced people to play a PvE world effectively together. They will make a PvE world where the players WANT to replay the PvE content rather than designing in the typical “Grind for the Shiny” that most (If not all) MMOs use today.
 
 
 
I mean no disrespect to anyone. I know nothing of MMO design. But I do know business, finance and statistics. The concepts of PvP and elite gear will fade out once MMO leadership fully accepts the fact  that the masses will flock to a rich, diverse, cooperative, highly available and replayable PvE MMO that does not have the design constraints of PvP and hardcore gear. 
 
 
You heard it here first.	
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Having gear as the goal, makes gear the goal. Thus, hardcore raiding is the only realistic design path to obtain it. And if 90% of the population can't mathematically reach the goal, that persons subscription has a limited life. It is only a matter of time before they do all possible content and unsub. Not complaining, it is just a fact. This is why WoW and others have gone the direction they’ve gone…to feed and retain the masses.
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There is no point to discuss what an MMO should be.
They are clearly defined in what they are supposed to be:
 
 
 
 
 
 
You can argue all you want about solo-content, but the main definition of MMO is the Multiplayer Online part.
Whatever argument you come up with, this does not change the definition of the abbreviation. It's Massive, It's Online and it's a multiplayer.
Unless I'm terrible at English, the very definition of  Multiplayer rules out the "solo plays" aspect.
 
Multiplayer Definition
 
With those points above, I have to side in the camp of Sly and the others defending the game as it is.
The whole point is that you interact and work together with to achieve something.
 
 
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Here’s a reality about the next great MMO…It will focus on PvE, and throw out the concepts of elite gear
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Ok ok...I know I just said I was bowing out of this discussion, but this blows me away. 
 
Olivar....are you suggesting that creativity and game design possibilities should be limited by a dictionary definition?  
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Well, I guess the question is this:  Do we want to market the game in 2004, or do we want to market the game in 2015?
 
Because I think it's going to be hard to pay for something when you're only advertising this game for 5100$ a month... but whatever, I'm sure you're bringing a significant amount of people into DS every week to increase revenue from raiders.
 
Once again, the idea isn't to make solo content more difficult, it's to slowly make difficult content more accessible.
 
Hell, these goals could be accomplished very easily.  For every week that you didn't clear a datascape boss to receive i75 gear, you could potentially spend your parallel currency on an item of i72 gear.  This satisfies all parties?
 
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			I find it interesting people keep beating the Raiders/dissenters with "EGOOOOOOO!!!!11111oneelevenone!!!111" when it is ego that started this whole thread.	
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to answer the OP:
 
wildstar is a RAID game, like many other mmos that can be considered "raid" games.
 
if you don't like raids, there are maybe other options out there for you. GW2 is solid for people who like solo yet massive gameplay and a very fair itemization curve.
 
 
but you can't just come in and say that wildstar is wrong because of what it is! maybe Raids are not as popular as they once were or not very inclusive or whatever, but there are still "some" people that like it. hopefully enough for wildstar to keep pumping raid content :D	
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I find it interesting people keep beating the Raiders/dissenters with "EGOOOOOOO!!!!11111oneelevenone!!!111" when it is ego that started this whole thread.
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Jix, Seraph, Treysaac... So let me get this right here by distilling down your posts to their basic essence.  You want raid level Legendary and Elden gear without all the challenge of working with others?
 
This is in essence what you are asking for. The ability to get what 20 other people have worked hard for without the mess or need to deal with 19 other people to do it. You want "Easymode" for raid level gear. What would be the point in raids if you get the gear without having to work with others in the first place? There wouldn't be one. You want to by-pass all that content to make it easier for you to not have to work with others. That's what all these "Give me raid level gear without having to raid" posts are about.
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This post is now about religion. Your signature implies you are endowed with the power of God to bless. That would require me to believe in your God or your signature is as meaningless as any other folk belief. So ergo you are pretty egoistic to randomly bless everyone's heart with a random imaginary figure in order to come across as a motherly all-loving person.
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So here is what I got from this discussion so far....
 
1) Could Wildstar use more content that is seen by everyone? Is there a way that we can get more people to see GA and the DS?
 
Yes, absolutely. We probably could use a loss stress, 10 man version of the GA which low member guilds might complete to get mostly dungeon purples (I would think at about protostar level) with the Ohmna boss dropping raid level gear and maybe the convergence weapons. Maybe not the weapons at all. Who knows. Maybe an easier LFR group finder would benefit WS in allowing people to see content. I am not sure if the development time on this is worth the benefit, but that is up to someone else to decide. Ultimately, I agree that it would be great if WS started up open up content like GA and DS to those with less time (though GA is pretty easy to get into since the lowering of attunement). This has been discussed over and over on the forums, and I don't really think we need to get into it now. But creating content between the vet dungeons and the 20 man raids might be nice. 5 man to 20 man is a big jump.
 
2) Does Wildstar need more challenging solo content? Can solo challenge compare to raid challenge? If so how do you do it.
 
I think that a number of people have brought up good points on the difficulty of creating solo instances which are challenging. VicVanMeter and CK have brought up the point that solo gear might not be the same as DPS, tank and healer gear (due to specialization of jobs) and that challenging solo instances would likely be tuned different for each class. I have heard people say "just balance it for dps!" but its not that easy because every class dps's different. Warriors bring a lot of damage, but absolutely no sustain without a healer. Espers and SS can't get hit by anything because of their super low armor, and SS are going to feel this more I think because they have less built in sustain in compared to espers. Engis have the worst mobility, so in mobile fights they are worse off than everyone else. Stalkers can't do maximum dps because they can't hang out behind their enemy. Medics are... well i don't know about medics because I don't play them, but I am sure they have their shortcomings.
 
Ultimately, in group content and raids especially, these weaknesses are mitigated by the large number of people in the group, making for a more even balance of strengths. Every class can have the thigns that they do better in raids, but they are all useful. In solo Instances, these shortcomings would be magnified. And if you want to make truly difficult content that challenges the solo player, what might challenge one class will be a breeze for another depending on how you are testing that class. In the end, I think that the only viable way to make it on the same difficult scale as raids would be to cater the instance to each class, taking into account that classes weaknesses and strengths. But that is 6 times the work.
 
3) Raids have lots of different, interesting mechanics which are possible due to the large number of people. How does a solo instance make up for this? Can you come up with fun and exciting mechanics for the solo player?
 
Certainly possible, but much more limited in my opinion. But in the end, they would have the throw out the book because everything that they have done in GA and DS can't be built on. They would have to start, from scratch, making 6 solo raids one for each class. Thats gonna take some time.
 
4) How long would you take to progress through this?
 
If you want raid level gear, then you need raid level commitment. That is about 3 months from 9-12 hours a week for 20 people. If you don't scale it up due to the amount of people, that still 3 months. If you do, then it is probably 6 months to a year. Do you solo players want an instance that you would work on alone for 3 months to a year in order to clear the content? Because personally, I think that if they went all out and made these, these solo instances would be used even less than raids. Because raiding with friends can be fun an exciting, even when you are wiping, but wiping alone on a boss for 3 hours sounds horrible to me. But maybe they would be used.
 
I would bet that the number of people running hardcore solo content would be the same if not lower percentage of people as hardcore group content. Because ultimately, not many people want to spend 3 months progressing through an instance, solo or group. Those that do are probably already raiding. 
 
Yasfan, if you do comment on this, I know that you are one of those people who would spend 3 months solo progressing. I believe it. But I am saying that I would think that you are the outlier among solo players in much that same way that people in the DS clearing avatus or working on avatus are the outliers among group raiders. Not many people have or desire that level of commitment to a piece of content.
 
TL;DR: WS needs to give more casual players a way to see GA and the DS, but maybe doesn't need to give them the same gear. I have yet to see a good argument on how WS would best implement a decent solution to giving solo players a progression raid.	
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We probably could use a loss stress, 10 man version of the GA which low member guilds might complete to get mostly dungeon purples
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Might just as well give it a numpty mode button so you can go in there with heavily reduced boss stats but not give any loot apart from decorative garbage!
 
Then what does it become - a Vet Shiphand pretty much!
 
I don't understand why people think they should be able to go into GA/DS if they can't be bothered.  They appear to have no interest in raiding a lot of them, they just want to see it or what?	
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{| class="blockquote"
I am in favor of 10 man content, but not re-tuned versions of what is already in the game. I'd rather get new stuff than have the devs spending time trying to create alternate versions of everything.
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raids are 20players.
 
i agree with the change to DS. so that now "all raids are 20" (it is better for tight group of friends not having to change numbers all the time).
 
but no need for 10players. (imo non-raiders are non-raiders so 10 or 20 won't change it).
 
i do agree though that they could drastically nerf the raids for a puggable version that would NOT reward good gear. This way it could make people see the content and "kind of learning the fights" etc. i think Wow does that (but i ve never played wow so I'm not sure here).	
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{| class="blockquote"
Please explain to me what a 10 man version of Kuralak would be like that wouldn't drastically change the encounter (and therefore consume a lot of development resources).
 
I am in favor of 10 man content, but not re-tuned versions of what is already in the game. I'd rather get new stuff than have the devs spending time trying to create alternate versions of everything.
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4 egg Kralak- I guess. It missing kind of what makes the fight interesting. I realize people can get 4 egg now, but that's because they have it on farm.
 
Also, this 10 man version requires at least one engineer (so does 20, but it's a of easier to ensure you have one of a class with 20 people).	
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			When I say I'm in favor of 10 mans, it's because I'd love to see a Kara style instance in this game.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Ultimately, I could probably do this for each boss, but I agree that it might not be worth it for those who are in GA already. But if you are looking at it from a perspective of Carbine, where perhaps 80-90% of the population hasn't set foot in GA, developing some easy ways to do expand the content might be more worth it than creating more content for the 1% who is done with DS. Just a thought.
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{| class="blockquote"
raids are 20players.
 
i agree with the change to DS. so that now "all raids are 20" (it is better for tight group of friends not having to change numbers all the time).
 
but no need for 10players. (imo non-raiders are non-raiders so 10 or 20 won't change it).
 
i do agree though that they could drastically nerf the raids for a puggable version that would NOT reward good gear. This way it could make people see the content and "kind of learning the fights" etc. i think Wow does that (but i ve never played wow so I'm not sure here).
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			There are 3 main reasons that solo content will never give you the gear or "cool kid" status that the OP is talking about.1)  Every computer game ever made has a limited budget that they need to allocate.  Let's say Wildstar has $100k to spend on every drop.  My rough guesses of averages are given, knowing that some patches are more about X and some are more about Y.$45k goes to group PvE progression.  This is the defining feature of MMO's and critical to the game's health.$30k goes to group PvP variety.  Another defining feature of all MMO's.$15k goes to solo play.  This is where the OP lives, and Wildstar is not ignoring you!$5k goes to crafting.  It's an MMO staple but Wildstar isn't trying to do anything special with it.$5k goes to housing. This is a defining part of Wildstar, not all MMOs.  They put a lot into it early but it doesn't need much from drop to drop.The point being, your solo content is not free.  I think it's quite possible to make a whole set of challenging instances for solo play, you could even make solo-play gear that gives you 10x stats when you're not grouped to separate it from raids (and address my next point), and very challenging content* designed exclusively to give a solo player 100's of hours of a progressively more difficult experience.  But they won't, because this is an MMO.Housing will never be as detailed at "The Sims," crafting will never be as crazy as Minecraft, and solo play will never be what you're asking for it to be.*still never as challenging as group play, but that's already been argued many times in this thread and I have nothing to add.  If you don't understand by now how coordinating the play of 20 people is harder than coordinating the play of 1 person, I don't know what else I can say.2)  Raid progression isn't just about being hard, it's about *progressing*.  The first boss in DS is literally impossible if you don't have at least GA level gear.  GA guilds are struggling with 20man DS (because it is tuned specifically to be challenging to them! As it should be!) while ex-40DS guilds think it's a cakewalk.   If we had TOP LEVEL gear from solo content when we walked into the instance, it wouldn't be challenging and the experience would be ruined.The BEST part of raiding, for many of us, is finally beating a boss we've been trying for weeks to beat.  If we got it on the second try, it wouldn't be any fun AND we'd invalidate all that money Carbine has spent on developing the raid by not spending any time doing it.This is what people have been trying to say when they say "you don't need raid gear if you're not raiding."3)  Even if Wildstar spent all the money developing a crazy awesome single player experience, and the gear was just as good as raid gear, you still wouldn't be a "cool kid."  For one thing, "cool kid" is a silly concept, especially within the context of a video game.  But more importantly, solo content gear will always be solo content gear.  They can make it legendary, and make it unique to your solo content, and give you a gold star, but seeing as 99% of the population understands that the most challenging single player content can never be as hard as the most challenging group content, solo gear will never confer that "cool kid" status.	
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If you want the gear etc from solo to be as good as raids then it's going to have to be as difficult to complete.  Which means it needs to be really really really hard.
 
I'll pose one question to you with that point in mind:
 
How do you balance the same content for 6 different classes to solo?
 
This isn't a gigantic company with resources coming out of their backsides to chuck a team at each to develop separate instances for each class etc.
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I was not aware that showing you more people than you thought were in the raids meant we were taking the game back to 2004. Just because it is 2015 does not mean that a game should not have difficult raid content. However, with the difficulty of raid content, it should receive the best PvE gear until something harder comes along. If they create solo or dungeon content that can match the difficulty of the 20 man raid, then sure it deserves to get better gear. If that content is not as hard as a 20 man raid, then no, it should not give you the same level of gear while that content is current. I am all for changing the glory vendor to give DS level gear with glory... when the next raid tier comes out. That is fine, but never while it is the current highest tier of difficulty.
 
Your point of allowing someone to buy gear if they do not clear a datascape boss would need some work. I still think you need to kill a boss to get gear, at least once. If they gated glory purchasable gear behind having killed the boss at least once, sure that is fine. Though not a whole loot table worth, maybe a peice here or there. (they might already do this, I have honestly never looked)
 
Also, to add to the numbers I gave you early when you were arguing how few people see the raid content. 4 more guilds cleared Ohmna over the weekend. Add 80 players to the list of people having cleared GA. They will be seeing DS content in the next few weeks. The raid content becomes easier and more accessible as time goes on. Not everyone is entitled to clearing the raids the first month they come out.
 
*Edit* Also looks like 2 more guilds have killed System Daemons in DS. So progress continues and 40+ more people will be seeing further into DS
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{| class="blockquote"
There are 3 main reasons that solo content will never give you the gear or "cool kid" status that the OP is talking about.
 
1)  Every computer game ever made has a limited budget that they need to allocate.  
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{| class="blockquote"
Awesome, 80 more people! 40 more people! Yes!  Only 0.1% of the game's population is seeing the content, assuming NO one else has subscribed for drop 4!  
 
Gee willikers, maybe if we can continue the trend, we can see 1% more people in the raiding aspect of the game over the next few weeks.  Pretty soon, this game will be filled with raiders!
 
Either way, I thought I succeeded in steering this conversation away from solo player progression, I guess not. 
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This thread ... again.
 
This is one of those in every single MMO forum to date. And in every single one it is the same thing.
 
People need to realize that no game can cater to every single type of player in the game. WoW doesn't and they have more money in the budget to spend so what makes you think a smaller company could?
 
Raiding will always give the best gear. If it didn't then there would be zero reason to even make the raids because people will always take the easier route to get top gear. At launch most dps were getting pvp weapons because they were the best attainable at the time. Giving equal gear to solo or even dungeon groups would kill this entire aspect of the game.
 
Solo players wanting gear equal to raiders ... for what? What do you need it for? Questing? Dungeons? It isn't needed at all for any of it. We did gold runs of everything with quest/dungeon gear.
 
Bottom line is that if you want the best gear in the game you have to put in the time to get it. Even IF they were to put in solo stuff to give gear near to equal it would need to be attached to insanely hard solo mobs and a timed quest that took 3+ hours to do in order to be equal to raiding. And even then most raiders would still have to do this before stepping foot into raids so all it would do is be more of an unneeded step in the raiding progression.	
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Stop right there, chum. That budget comes from their revenues, and most of their players spend most of their time playing solo content. Budget allocations are flatly NOT a reason solo content is ignored here.
 
You are imagining that solo progression content will be so quickly attainable that raiders will all do that and then go waltz through the raids. As has been repeatedly pointed out here, there are ways to make solo content both challenging AND time-gated to prevent a solo pathway to the top from being faster than raids. It is easily possible to make progressive solo content.
 
 
 :rolleyes:
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Raids aren't designed towards all 6 classes, so why should solo content need to be? Raids are designed towards 4 basic components: damage, healing, tanking, crowd control. All classes have some form of crowd control, and all classes have 2 of the 3 other components.
 
In the end, they MIGHT need to cater to 2 different solo instance types: DPS/heal and DPS/tank, if the DPS/heal can't pull in enough mitigation and the DPS/tank can't pull in enough healing from consumables, gadgets, imbuements, AMPs, and T4/T8 power upgrades to fill in the gaps of what they need to have. But this problem sounds bigger in this discussion than it really is in practice. DPS/Healers shouldn't need as much armor as DPS/tanks because they can heal more powerfully and more frequently; DPS/tanks shouldn't need as much healing as DPS/healers because they don't lose damage at the same rate.  
 
It simply isn't the case that DPS/tanks have no healing options, nor is it the case that DPS/healers have no mitigation options. To take an example from Espers, since that's the class I'm most familiar with, Geist is a mitigation power in a DPS/heal class. It's a pet that draws aggro and reduces incoming damage. I find it very handy when I'm trying to take something down and the heavy hits that it uses simply hit too hard in a single blow for my healing to recover from. It's a very important part of my "take out the 5-person prime boss by myself" toolkit. Both DPS/heal and DPS/tank have lots of ways to try to fill the gaps available to them if you really look over all the different powers they've got, many of which get ignored by people who run group content because they aren't necessary if you have someone else filling the holes in your own build. That's not an option in solo play. You can't have holes.
 
But the key to challenging solo content is not to design to the Trinity. Talking about solo content for healers, for example, misses the point of running things solo completely. You can't BE just a healer if you're on your own, you need to do some damage too. You cannot overspecialize for some other task and expect to do this one successfully. You, and you alone, must provide the necessary combination of attributes required to succeed. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Raids aren't designed towards all 6 classes, so why should solo content need to be? Raids are designed towards 4 basic components: damage, healing, tanking, crowd control. All classes have some form of crowd control, and all classes have 2 of the 3 other components.
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{| class="blockquote"
That budget comes from their revenues, and most of their players spend most of their time playing solo content. Budget allocations are flatly NOT a reason solo content is ignored here.
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{| class="blockquote"
The classes are MORE than just dps/tank/healer. They have their own abilities that have to be dealt with. Balancing when you know you'll have a large category of classes is a lot easier than making sure every class on its own will not be OP or UP in a given encounter.
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{| class="blockquote"
Raids aren't designed towards all 6 classes, so why should solo content need to be? Raids are designed towards 4 basic components: damage, healing, tanking, crowd control. All classes have some form of crowd control, and all classes have 2 of the 3 other components.
 
In the end, they MIGHT need to cater to 2 different solo instance types: DPS/heal and DPS/tank, if the DPS/heal can't pull in enough mitigation and the DPS/tank can't pull in enough healing from consumables, gadgets, imbuements, AMPs, and T4/T8 power upgrades to fill in the gaps of what they need to have. But this problem sounds bigger in this discussion than it really is in practice. DPS/Healers shouldn't need as much armor as DPS/tanks because they can heal more powerfully and more frequently; DPS/tanks shouldn't need as much healing as DPS/healers because they don't lose damage at the same rate.  
 
It simply isn't the case that DPS/tanks have no healing options, nor is it the case that DPS/healers have no mitigation options. To take an example from Espers, since that's the class I'm most familiar with, Geist is a mitigation power in a DPS/heal class. It's a pet that draws aggro and reduces incoming damage. I find it very handy when I'm trying to take something down and the heavy hits that it uses simply hit too hard in a single blow for my healing to recover from. It's a very important part of my "take out the 5-person prime boss by myself" toolkit. Both DPS/heal and DPS/tank have lots of ways to try to fill the gaps available to them if you really look over all the different powers they've got, many of which get ignored by people who run group content because they aren't necessary if you have someone else filling the holes in your own build. That's not an option in solo play. You can't have holes.
 
But the key to challenging solo content is not to design to the Trinity. Talking about solo content for healers, for example, misses the point of running things solo completely. You can't BE just a healer if you're on your own, you need to do some damage too. You cannot overspecialize for some other task and expect to do this one successfully. You, and you alone, must provide the necessary combination of attributes required to succeed. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Also me in this thread
 
http://xkcd.com/386/
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Also me in this thread
 
http://xkcd.com/386/	
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{| class="blockquote"
Given this logic, Carbine could drop all group content from the game, then.
 
It's not about where most players spend their time, it's about what most players value.
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{| class="blockquote"
yeah, Carbine should definitely make the next Call of Duty or Assassin's creed.
 
why bother with an mmo...
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{| class="blockquote"
You are correct in the current state of the game.  what I am talking about is changing away from the current state of the game to allow for multiple avenues of progression to the highest level of gear all equally challenging but allowing for diversity in play style and the amount of time one must commit in a single sitting.  just because I can only play for 30min at a time does not mean i do not want or deserve to be entertained by challenging content and the possibility of reaching the highest of gear levels and the coolest looking. skill should equal reward not time per sitting and the ability to have other people carry you through.
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Can't tell if serious or not. Slyjeff is agreeing that group content should remain the focus...
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{| class="blockquote"
sarcasm my friend.
its a latin thing.
 
but yes i was agreeing with Slyjeff. i was adding on top of his comment.
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{| class="blockquote"
Awesome, 80 more people! 40 more people! Yes!  Only 0.1% of the game's population is seeing the content, assuming NO one else has subscribed for drop 4!  
 
Gee willikers, maybe if we can continue the trend, we can see 1% more people in the raiding aspect of the game over the next few weeks.  Pretty soon, this game will be filled with raiders!
 
Either way, I thought I succeeded in steering this conversation away from solo player progression, I guess not. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Please don't be bitter that I proved your numbers were skewed and exaggerated to a lower spectrum. The point is not how many people are doing it, but that more people are doing it than non-raiders seem to think. More people see the content each week, so it is perfectly viable and important to keep developing this kind of content.
 
As far as solo player progression and small group progression, that is what this entire thread is based off of, so to steer it away from that would cause this thread to be useless.
 
I stand by my point that until solo or small group content is as difficult as a 20 man raid, it should not offer the same level of rewards. It does not take a lot of time to raid. You don't have to be "hardcore". You can put in 6 hours a week or less, you just may not progress as fast. There is nothing holding a solo player back from raiding and getting the gear other than themselves. There are pugs and guilds out there for people that can only raid 1 day for a few hours.
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{| class="blockquote"
well... definitely more people are raiding that doing the awful warplots. have YOU seen them ?
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{| class="blockquote"
I have never done warplots. My guild helps to organize Friday warplots on Entity, but I have never taken part in them since I usually don't play on Friday nights. But if anyone does want to see them and help grow the warplot battles, then Friday 8:30pm EST on Entity. I think they usually do 2 battles.
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{| class="blockquote"
I have heard they were fun, so I guess that is a matter of opinion. Though I have always been of the thought process that they should be 20v20. Same number of people as the raids, would just make since as being the "big endgame pvp" thing. That would require some changes though.
 
Just as a side note though, how did you get on the topic of warplots with me, when I have not said a word about warplots or really any pvp in my previous posts?
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{| class="blockquote"
i've been. i've seen. i'll probably never play them again.
wildstar is not suited for 30v30. it is bad. it looks horrific, it plays horrific.
 
why go thru that pain instead of playing better mass pvp experience like gw2 or eso?
 
even as a side dish to raiding i don't see warplots ever taking up steam.
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{| class="blockquote"
Please don't be bitter that I proved your numbers were skewed and exaggerated to a lower spectrum. The point is not how many people are doing it, but that more people are doing it than non-raiders seem to think. More people see the content each week, so it is perfectly viable and important to keep developing this kind of content.
 
As far as solo player progression and small group progression, that is what this entire thread is based off of, so to steer it away from that would cause this thread to be useless.
 
I stand by my point that until solo or small group content is as difficult as a 20 man raid, it should not offer the same level of rewards. It does not take a lot of time to raid. You don't have to be "hardcore". You can put in 6 hours a week or less, you just may not progress as fast. There is nothing holding a solo player back from raiding and getting the gear other than themselves. There are pugs and guilds out there for people that can only raid 1 day for a few hours.
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I'm not bitter, I'm just dumbfounded that you think such a small increase in players in each week is "more than I thought,"
 
Buddy, listen.  If only 100 more people are seeing raids in a week, that's a .1% increase in players seeing that content in a week.  That means in 6 months, 2.5% more of the population is seeing raids, ASSUMING NO INCREASE IN SUBSCRIBERS.
 
Are you honestly trying to say that is a valuable expenditure of CRB development time and resources?  Let's say that even if 10% more people were playing this game for the raiding content, that's still a small part of the population of this game.  Wouldn't it be nice if Wildstar was sold as a game with hard and challenging content that all players have a chance to see and try their hand at competing?  Right now it's being sold as a game that only 10% of the playerbase gets to even step foot into.
 
You can't just make your whole game revolve around difficult and challenging raid content if only 10% of your subscribers ever get to try it!  You're better off focusing on solo content or alternative gear progression in order to make those raids accessible.  Solo Joe and Group Content healer Sally aren't suddenly going to be 9/9 DS just because you opened the door for them, but they are going to subscribe and try and kill bosses.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not bitter, I'm just dumbfounded that you think such a small increase in players in each week is "more than I thought,"
 
Buddy, listen.  If only 100 more people are seeing raids in a week, that's a .1% increase in players seeing that content in a week.  That means in 6 months, 2.5% more of the population is seeing raids, ASSUMING NO INCREASE IN SUBSCRIBERS.
 
Are you honestly trying to say that is a valuable expenditure of CRB development time and resources?  Let's say that even if 10% more people were playing this game for the raiding content, that's still a small part of the population of this game.  Wouldn't it be nice if Wildstar was sold as a game with hard and challenging content that all players have a chance to see and try their hand at competing?  Right now it's being sold as a game that only 10% of the playerbase gets to even step foot into.
 
You can't just make your whole game revolve around difficult and challenging raid content if only 10% of your subscribers ever get to try it!  You're better off focusing on solo content or alternative gear progression in order to make those raids accessible.  Solo Joe and Group Content healer Sally aren't suddenly going to be 9/9 DS just because you opened the door for them, but they are going to subscribe and try and kill bosses.
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{| class="blockquote"
Except that 100% of player have a chance to see the content, not just 10% or even the 1% you had mentioned see it. The only thing holding a person back from seeing the content right now is themself. I have never said that there should NOT be challenging solo or group content through any of my posts. I have only said that if they want equal reward they need to be on par in difficulty with the 20 man raids. Something I don't think is possible in a solo setting, but if it can be done I would be more than happy to see it.
 
Now people may argue that they don't have time or only like to play solo, don't want to join guilds, etc. That is there own choice to not see the content, but it is available for them. Everyone that does choose to see it is not entitled to see the end of it without having to put in the time and work the rest of us do. Obviously, if they have less time to put in, they may progress slower, but the opportunities are still there.
 
Any other post has just been arguing numbers with you, which are honestly irrelevant since as like I just said, everyone has the chance to do and see the content. Some just choose not to for various personal reasons or have not found a like minded group of people to do the content with. That does not mean it is unavailable to them.
 
I don't complain about not being able to get top pvp gear because I don't have the time to sit down and do high end pvp. I just accept that its not something I can have and move on with life. So I feel no pity for people who want raid level gear, but don't want to raid to get it.
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			Eclips, the number of raiders in DS will continue to increase over time at a faster rate.	
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{| class="blockquote"
problem is, if you don't raid in wildstar. you probably left already or will leave soon.
only a minority will stay in wildstar for its other facets... because lets be honest; they are weak and a lot of othe rgame do it better or do it in bigger quantity.
+ wildstar have a sub...
 
so yeah, if you don't raid, you're probably already gone...
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{| class="blockquote"
Uh, I run a mid-sized guild entirely made up of people who don't raid.  I think you're being very unfairly negative.  We love the lower content.
 
This game is not made up of raiders.  I'd say a very small minority are EXCLUSIVELY raiders, either.  Most people I get addicted to this game don't have to wait for GA, I get them hooked on normal STL.
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{| class="blockquote"
problem is, if you don't raid in wildstar. you probably left already or will leave soon.
only a minority will stay in wildstar for its other facets... because lets be honest; they are weak and a lot of othe rgame do it better or do it in bigger quantity.
+ wildstar have a sub...
 
so yeah, if you don't raid, you're probably already gone...
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{| class="blockquote"
Except that 100% of player have a chance to see the content, not just 10% or even the 1% you had mentioned see it. The only thing holding a person back from seeing the content right now is themself. I have never said that there should NOT be challenging solo or group content through any of my posts. I have only said that if they want equal reward they need to be on par in difficulty with the 20 man raids. Something I don't think is possible in a solo setting, but if it can be done I would be more than happy to see it.
 
Now people may argue that they don't have time or only like to play solo, don't want to join guilds, etc. That is there own choice to not see the content, but it is available for them. Everyone that does choose to see it is not entitled to see the end of it without having to put in the time and work the rest of us do. Obviously, if they have less time to put in, they may progress slower, but the opportunities are still there.
 
Any other post has just been arguing numbers with you, which are honestly irrelevant since as like I just said, everyone has the chance to do and see the content. Some just choose not to for various personal reasons or have not found a like minded group of people to do the content with. That does not mean it is unavailable to them.
 
I don't complain about not being able to get top pvp gear because I don't have the time to sit down and do high end pvp. I just accept that its not something I can have and move on with life. So I feel no pity for people who want raid level gear, but don't want to raid to get it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Eclips, the number of raiders in DS will continue to increase over time at a faster rate.
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{| class="blockquote"
Good, let's charge them extra so that those of us not playing the raiding game don't have to pay 15$ a month to content that's exclusive to less than 10% of this MMO.
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