Report 359

Report #359
Skillset: Druidry Skill: Sap
 Org: Blacktalon Status: Rejected Apr 2010
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Problem: Presently, sap is a single, targetted attack that must be performed in
the trees in such a manner that the target is unable to cleanse or be cleansed
by an ally. The issue with this is, more often than not, that the target, even
treebaned, will have time to apply mending and climb back down or change rooms
before the caster is able to sap or further incapacitate them. This is
especially hindering to the caster during 1v1 and 2v1 situations. Outside of a
meld, the caster often has the added disadvantage of an equilibrium loss from
seizing the target or raising cudgel to bring the target to the trees without
benefit of treelife (a skill that, while castable in a room outside of a meld,
still requires setup and will have to be cast in each room involved in any
confrontation).
Solution #1: Add a multiple-person or room-wide sap for increased power costs
 (8p?). This would reduce the issue of team-cleansing while
 costing enough power that it cannot be done twice in quick
 succession without refreshing.
Solution #2: Allow sapping at ground-level, which would give the druid an
 alternative to eating the double equilibrium penalty when setting
 up the attack.
Solution #3: Increase the sap delay from .5 seconds, allowing the druid a
 slightly higher chance of incapacitating the target before a
 cleanse can be snuck in.
Player Comments:
---[Lehki on 4/6 @ 15:22 writes]:
Solution 1 looks like a big waste of power to me, even against a large group.
Would probably only knock enemies off eq once to cleanse, unless you had
everybody attacking different targets to attempt locking. I'm not so sure on
solution 3 also. Though I will agree that the timing for afflictions to stop
cleanse with putting the target in the trees can be really difficult, which is
why I really love the hartstone's beast treetoss.
---[Narynth on 4/6 @ 16:23 writes]:
Solution 1 mostly addresses the situations where there are two or more targets
in a room with a single druid - even if you're lucky enough to stick a sap,
there's a second set of attacks that, by the time you can deal with them, have
given the first individual time to cleanse/be cleansed/cure and renew their own
assault. It's treading water and leaves you reliant upon the confusion from meld
effects hitting both attackers to gain any ground.
---[Lehki on 4/6 @ 22:10 writes]:
Well, you should be at a disadvantage if you're alone against multiple people,
and solution 1 would only briefly delay the secondary target from cleansing his
ally, you can't feasibly lock down two competent people at the same time, and as
soon as he does that if the target isn't already on the brink of bleeding to
death they'll cure up and survive. Also if you look at report 354, I'm already
attempting to address being able to cure sap on other people this month. Your
solutions are a bit all over the place, I'm not really sure what you're trying
to accomplish here besides buffing sap.
---[Narynth on 4/7 @ 04:49 writes]:
The fact that you're obviously going to be at a disadvantage when you're facing
two or more opponents alone doesn't particularly indicate that you should be
further at a disadvantage with an ability that requires massive set-up for a
chance at a lock. As someone who uses sap as well, I'm sure you can acknowledge
the fact that the incidences when this is a viable and effective option are
really a matter of perfect timing and luck. To address the cleanse report, I'm
merely offering a variety of options for what I consider a broader problem than
merely the cleanse cure itself - one of which would satisfy that particular
facet of the issue, while the others focus more upon the sap skill and improving
its useability as opposed to the cure.
---[Ilaveuse on 4/7 @ 06:21 writes]:
I'm not a sap user, never have been, but this seems largely superfluous to me.
The report on the cleanse cure fixes solution 1 and the problems associated with
it, I think. The other two solutions don't seem to make sap much easier to
stick, just make it more effective when you are ready to land it, and in my
experience if you do manage to stick it, it doesn't need to be much stronger.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't one generally do the setup required to
keep cleanse down prior to sap? Solution 3 is too much, I think, since if you
increase the time delay to the point where the druid can slip enough other
actions in to keep you from cleansing, once it's stuck you really won't be able
to get out of it. Solution 2 doesn't seem to really do much, since (again,
correct me if I'm wrong) it seems like you do all the prep for sap before you
launch the sap itself. So at that point, if you're really ready to land it, it
doesn't really matter if it's in the trees or on the ground, does it?
---[Lehki on 4/7 @ 17:51 writes]:
In my experience the set up really a lot, because we have no real way to stack
afflictions before sapping the target. And I think 'saplock' is misleading
since you can't actually 'lock' a target like you do with a slitlock, you can
just outpace they're curing. That's most of the work is on a target who is
decent at curing under sap, which is admittedly not many. Solution 1, honestly
I don't think would accomplish anything towards the issue you say it's aimed at.
In my first comment meant to say I'm not sure of solution 2, because although it
makes timing the sap cast easier, and make Brumetower not so OP against druids,
it wouldn't help with keeping sap stuck over time. Solution 3 would be a pretty
huge buff at like anything more then .7 seconds delay.
---[Narynth on 4/7 @ 23:19 writes]:
The solutions are definitely not a universal perspective on how to increase
sap's useability, but adjusting one or more of the various issues associated
with sap would go a long way toward increasing the practicality of using it. Of
the three, solution one has the least impact directly on the issue, and I can
agree with your point on that. Solution two would allow druids another point in
time where 'locking' is possible - and as I've said, the present chances are
tough odds given the necessary set-up and opportunities based on your opponent's
movements. The set-up itself, Ilaveuse, is done prior to a sap attempt but again
is based on the druid's ability to time to the second every hindering aff
possible (in addition to sap itself!) that will prevent an instant cleanse.
Solution three accomplishes much of what solution two would, but (in moderation)
would just extend the time slightly within which a druid could sap while in the
trees. It's also the one that -could- cross the line into making sap too easily
stickable instead of just giving a boost, the latter obviously being the aim
here.
---[Xenthos on 4/8 @ 03:46 writes]:
I'm personally against raising Sap's timer, just given that it's easier to block
a cleanse rub than it is to block a sip (and Sap lasts longer if uncured than
Aeon does). More restrictions on rubbing an enchantment than on sipping.
---[Ilaveuse on 4/8 @ 04:03 writes]:
You say that the set up is done prior to the sap but is dependent on timing
everything exactly. If that's the case, does it really matter whether it's in
the trees or on the ground? It seems to me like that's kind of irrelevant.
(That's a genuine question, not sarcastic or anything.) Solution 3 I agree is
too much, and once again doesn't strike me as fixing the problem. Narynth says
"Solution three accomplishes much of what solution two would, but (in
moderation) would just extend the time slightly within which a druid could sap
while in the trees." Now, either I'm misinterpreting the solution, or this is
off base. As I read that, it sounds to me like you're talking about the actions
while sapped being delayed by longer than .5 seconds, but what you just said is
that it would extend the time the druid had to land the sap. That doesn't make
sense, since that wouldn't do anything until after the sap was on the target.
---[Lehki on 4/8 @ 04:34 writes]:
Ilaveuse, there is really not a lot of set-up for sap because druid's really
can't stack many afflictions before sapping. I think I left a 'not' out of the
start of my last comment. The real work on sap is maintaining afflictions after
the sap cast. Being able to sap on the ground would make a difference because
the timing to stick it includes timing when your target is in the trees.
---[Narynth on 4/8 @ 05:04 writes]:
Irk, lost track of my train of thought. I meant to stick it, rather than the
actual affliction of it. Getting back to solution two, sapping on the ground
means that a druid can still use elevation to their advantage but no longer
-must- keep the target in the trees if conditions are favorable while on the
ground. Things like treebane, sleep attrition, vines, and such will still play
factors here, but as it stands, forcing the target to the trees, which, for
timing's sake, is not always a given with treelife means you're in need of using
other skills (seizing, raising cudgel, one losing your bal, the other eq) by
which time your opponent has usually mended legs or writhed with little
difficulty all while you attempt to sap which, of course, is followed by another
eq loss. With treebane, you're either going to get lucky with a tic that forces
them to the ground before the cleanse or you're going to see them forced
riiiight as you get equilibrium back prior to sapping. If the former, score, you
can probably make it to the ground and vines to muck them up some more, but if
it's the latter, it's another round of set-up casting treebane and hoisting to
your elevation. By this time the target's hopped a room or three and you're no
closer to moving forward with an offense than you were at the start.
---[Ilaveuse on 4/8 @ 05:19 writes]:
Well, okay, that makes more sense with that 'not' in there. Narynth's last
comment is a bit circular and confusing, but maybe that's just me. I think I get
the picture. I prefer solution 2 of the three, solution 3 seems either kind of
pointless or ridiculously overpowered, depending on how long the delay gets
bumped to. Above .8 seconds or so between actions and it'll be too much.
---[Narynth on 4/9 @ 02:56 writes]:
I'm also viewing two as the most apt solution here. Let me know what I can
clarify, not trying to confuse anyone!
---[Ilaveuse on 4/9 @ 09:03 writes]:
Right now, fighting a druid at all (assuming they're holed up in their meld)
involves not getting stuck in the trees and trying to fight the druid on the
ground. While I think it's safe to say that fighting a decently competent druid
in the heart of their meld is usually a bad idea, if we ignore that for a moment
and assume that you're trying to fight a druid in their meld and that sap works
on the ground, there's no defense against it. If the druid can throw one of
their most crucial skills from anywhere they please and you don't have any
opportunity or way of blocking it, or method of shrugging it or anything, that's
bad. I know it's been said that movement is a viable part of Lusternian combat,
but I personally feel that there should be some other option than running away
as soon as a druid comes after you. Since it sounds like there's not much pre-
sap setup involved, having it work on the ground could, it seems, lead to a very
simple demesne tic-saplock-die that really wouldn't have any other recourse than
to not fight the druid. I feel like having sap only work in the trees gives
people some opportunity at least to offer a decent fight. You don't stay and
fight a druid in the trees unless you're suicidal. Why? Sap. So if we move sap
to working on the ground, there's nowhere you can go to fight the druid. Getting
somebody into the trees is a big part of druid offense, and if you take out that
requirement... you're left with the equivalent of fighting the druid in the
trees, or running. Not a good situation.
---[Lehki on 4/9 @ 16:03 writes]:
You make it sound like it's over as soon as you are sapped. I fight plenty of
people who have no problem spending the entire time in the trees while rarely
presenting an oppurtune moment to use sap. And I've had some tanky warriors
slowly tumble through a few rooms to escape my demesne to cure up and couldn't
bleed them out in the time it took. There's some people out there I know of
whose curing can easily outpace anything I can throw at them while sapped, one
even let me stack every relevant affliction I could before they started curing
and I couldn't keep them locked up long enough to finish them off. A druids
options most of the time are to sit holed up in his demense waiting for people
to come in, or to run away. Solo chasing a competent target outside of your
demesne is laughable at best, and a stupid idea at worst.
---[Ilaveuse on 4/10 @ 02:50 writes]:
Well, no, it's not all over once you get sapped, but it seems like there are two
possible outcomes of a fight with a druid. Either you get sapped, can't cure it,
and die, or outpace it and the druid can't do a thing about it. Letting it fire
on the ground doesn't do anything to affect the people that can outpace it
anyways, but for the people that can't outpace it, their defense is to try to
fight on the ground. Moving Sap to working on the ground still cuts out a big
chunk of what a druid does, and it seems to me like doing that would leave them
with very little that they need to do besides sap and hope that their target
isn't somebody that can outpace it. If you don't have to do any work to drag the
target into the trees, what's left? (Again, genuine question, not rhetoric.)
---[Narynth on 4/10 @ 04:27 writes]:
Allowing sapping on the ground isn't going to give druids the ability to kick
back and kill at leisure. They'd still need to give chase, and it would still
be in their best interests to bring the target to the trees in order to attempt
limb breaks via treebane, certain demesne effects that are limited to that
elevation, etc. You're not reducing the chance of an instant cleanse directly,
but instead making it slightly more realistic for the caster to actually time
their sap appropriately to make it effective.
---[Ilaveuse on 4/10 @ 07:44 writes]:
Okay, that makes some sense, although I'm still not a huge fan of the idea. It
just seems to kill the possibility of an anti-sap strategy for most people. I'm
not sure how you're supposed to stop a druid from sapping if fighting them on
the ground isn't a (relatively) safe option. Maybe not quite as broken as I
originally thought, but like I said, still don't really care for it.
---[Placeus on 4/13 @ 07:05 writes]:
Allowing sap at the ground elevation (and without a demense) would make it a lot
scarier in group combat. With proper coordination, two people could just walk
into a room and immediately vines/sap, pinleg/sap, anything/sap and have a good
chance of it sticking long enough to regain balance and finish the target off.
If this were the case, it would be similar to the oft complained about
choke/pinleg or choke/whatever combinations without the requirement for released
shadows.
---[Placeus on 4/13 @ 07:08 writes]:
Hrmm, please ignore what I said about a demense. It wasn't clear and just
confuses the point I was trying to make about elevation.
---[Lehki on 4/16 @ 17:43 writes]:
Would still have the requirement of raising forest which is a lot slower then
releasing shadows and costs power, although clearly quite possible that the
target might be in forest already, so situationally different. I do agree that
it would make for some easy combo's for a 2 on 1 gank, though I think it's far
cry from choke still.
---[Fillin on 4/20 @ 05:51 writes]:
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