Report 718

Report #718
Skillset: Necromancy Skill: Ghost
 Org: Nihilists Status: Rejected Oct 2011
Furies' Decision:
We are rejecting this report and note we have repeatedly stated this would not
change.
Problem: Ghost is our primary safety skill and in certain situations our
infiltration skill. The issue with this though is it is stopped by water, which
we cannot move in. Considering Celest is our opposing organization, not to
mention all the territories, water is very prevailent and the use of this skill
is often negated.
Solution #1: Allow Ghost to move through water
Player Comments:
---[Raeri on 10/15 @ 06:53 writes]:
It's silly that as a ghost you need traction against a solid surface. Can Ghosts
fly? In any case, I think Sol 1 is reasonable.
---[Shuyin on 10/15 @ 08:38 writes]:
Didn't report 432 already try this and was rejected? Perhaps a different
approach could be used
---[Xenthos on 10/15 @ 13:10 writes]:
Definitely need some new ideas. Not just report 432, but it's been envoyed and
submitted over and over and over and always gets rejected. It's a backbone of
the Vision for ghosts. (That said, as far as game balance goes I still support
this)
---[Rika on 10/15 @ 22:57 writes]:
While I don't necessarily disagree with this, I feel a new solution would
attract more support from the decision makers.
---[Raeri on 10/15 @ 23:23 writes]:
Like maybe... letting ghosts tumble?
---[Iytha on 10/15 @ 23:26 writes]:
I've always found the answer "Ghosts can't be allowed to cross water because
Deluge is needed to stop ghosts" to be spurious, since only Celest has access to
deluge. Support solution 1.
---[Ethelon on 10/16 @ 01:46 writes]:
Maybe as a solution, make water drag Ghosts down/slow them, so they can still
move through, but with a 1 second delay?
---[Inagin on 10/16 @ 05:57 writes]:
The fact that Celest is Magnagora's opposing organization makes me feel that
ghosts should definitely be stopped by water rather than the other way around.
However, I can agree to make the movement of ghosts less restrictive
(water/special exits) IF something else was implemented to allow us to stop them
at all. I have suggested eye sigils in the past because I think that is the most
reasonable.
---[Ethelon on 10/16 @ 13:38 writes]:
Eye Sigils would make it to easy to completley negate the skill even more so
than water. There should be no reason why our main escape skill has such a hard
counter to it, which comes up a great deal in fighting. If this was the case and
we wanted fairness, I would have asked for Trueheal barrier to drop when used in
tainted environments. Ghost has been argued for years now about it being so
restricted and yes it does keep getting asked to be fixed, and no, there should
be no hard counter to it, as it has restrictions already to using and a ghost
can be seen, attacked, and distort drops ghost.
---[Enyalida on 10/16 @ 18:54 writes]:
The idea here is that moving water dispels/stops evil spirits and therefore
ghosts. I think objections to this change in the past have been due to the RP of
ghost, and therefore are immune to most arguments of balance. How does
immunity/reduction to damage in liquidform work? I would consider those two
skills more similar then ghost and trueheal.
---[Enyalida on 10/16 @ 18:56 writes]:
So, perhaps that could be amended to be "Allow ghosts to move over all but
NATURAL water features". That way you can move in deluge, but not across the
natural energy/purity channels of freshwater streams.
---[Ethelon on 10/16 @ 19:53 writes]:
That would still restrict it's use on Water and in the SoD/Inner Sea plus other
areas of the basin. It's been said before that Balance > RP/Realism, and this is
what I'm hoping to address, balance.
---[Ixion on 10/17 @ 07:12 writes]:
A rubble like delay was the first thing that came to mind for me as well. I
think that's pretty reasonable. If 1s is deemed too short, 2s would work- some
middleground would be good here.
---[Neos on 10/17 @ 14:48 writes]:
Liquidform is full damage immunity, but can only be done in a demesne, while
ghost can be done anywhere. The power cost is also different. Liquidform is 10,
Ghost is 3.
---[Morbo on 10/17 @ 19:55 writes]:
Solution 1 seems fine, I don't really see a balance issue there and just from a
reason stand point why would ghosts be stopped by water
---[Ethelon on 10/18 @ 00:42 writes]:
Please don't compare liquidform to ghost, they are not even close to being the
same. One is immunity, no resitrctions in casting (from what I am told), and
allwos you to heal others in your demense. Ghost has restrictions which stops
its use, can be attacked while in it, is stopped by distort (which is very often
active), drains willpower pretty quickly, and of course, can't cross water.
---[Iytha on 10/19 @ 04:50 writes]:
I'd like to reiterate: The argument that ghosts should be stopped from going
over water for RP reasons is silly. There is no mention anywhere else in the
game of ghosts being unable to cross water, not even in the AB file for
Necromancy Ghost itself. Water doesn't stop dreamweavers, dead people, ancestor
spirits or denizen ghosts/spectres/spirits and, in one case (Marilynth) a ghost
lives -exclusively- underwater. There is no rolepay reason for any sort of
lusternian magic to be stopped by flowing water, with the sole possible
exception of non-aquamantic elementalism.
---[Enyalida on 10/20 @ 05:09 writes]:
I agree, that's just the only reason I've ever heard for why it works the way it
does.
---[Veracruz on 10/25 @ 07:18 writes]:
I'm for solution 1
---[Sidd on 10/27 @ 17:49 writes]:
I can get behind ghost moving across water if eyesigils are made to prevent
their movement. If you want to argue that dw's, souls etc can move across water
then it makes sense that whatever stops them (eyesigils) stops ghosts too
---[Iytha on 10/27 @ 20:32 writes]:
Dreamwavers can move across eye sigils. They just can't enter dreamwave
envelop/coalesce on one. Likewise, spectre denizens, the Paavik ghosts, the
spirits in Wend/Spirit Plane/spiritsinger spirits and so forth are all able to
cross eye sigils. Only souls are blocked by eye sigils.
---[Enyalida on 10/28 @ 06:01 writes]:
To confirm, Iytha is correct. Eye sigils do not stop leaving your body as a
dreamweaver or moving into the eye sigil'd room. Eye sigils stop these two
things: Enveloping (picking up) items at the location of the eye sigil.
Coalescing at the location of the eye sigil. Eye sigils do nothing more to
dreamweavers.
---[Inagin on 10/28 @ 16:50 writes]:
That's true, but you cannot use Dreamweaving as an escape tool. The body that is
left behind is vulnerable. This is not the case when using Ghost. I feel that
having eye sigils stop their movement is a fair counter (instead of water,
doors, and special exits).
---[Sidd on 10/28 @ 18:01 writes]:
My bad about DW's. In game ghosts and necromancy ghosting seems like two
different things, so I don't feel they are comparable. I kind of agree with
Inagin, Ghosts need a counter, especially if it's made so they can cross water.
Violet/kether just doesn't cut it because it doesn't do anything besides damage,
so you can just run away.
---[Enyalida on 10/29 @ 02:04 writes]:
I don't know why removing a very specific counter that only one guild can
counter requires adding a counter to everyone. Before, the vast majority of
people couldn't counter it and there weren't problems.
---[Inagin on 10/29 @ 16:33 writes]:
That's why I mentioned giving them the ability to walk through doors and use
special exits too (things Necromancy users have complained about in the past).
Every guild should have a counter to it and I think this is a good compromise.
---[Iytha on 10/29 @ 23:12 writes]:
The only reason why they'd need to be stopped by eye sigils if if they were able
to pass through doors. Ghosts cannot and do not need to be able to walk through
doors. Thus, ghosts do not need to be stopped by eye sigils.
---[Ethelon on 10/30 @ 02:33 writes]:
The eye sigils suggestion is just a stronger restriction, worse than water is
currently. Ghost is just not some free excape skill, it still has restrictions
to use, still drains willpower very fast, costs power to put up, drops in
distortion, and can still be attacked. Eye sigil restriction is just rediculous
as that just makes the skill even easier to counter and stop it's use. As
suggested before, if it's felt there really needs to be a restriction in water,
make it delayed movement.