122684-yet-another-person-considering-a-return

Page 1, Page 2
== Content ==
			
When I let my sub expire last time, wildstar was missing quite a few needed changes. I see that veteran ship hand missions have finally made it into the game, and that's great!
 
But what I'm curious to know is if the equipment progression at end game he is still super random. If PvP is still a train wreck. If end game is still nothing but ridiculous grind. Are all classes available for all races yet? Did they ever fix amp drop rates? The ability to change your path choice?
 
I do like the combat style of Wildstar, and I see a lot of potential, but I'm very concerned about whether or not carbine actually addressed the major issues plaguing the game.	
----
			
-You can now buy entry-level gear for group content for renown alone (and you can get renown with Veteran Shiphands, even if you solo them). Doing dungeons now awards you with a new Glory currency that you can spend in buying any dungeon level gear (as far as I can tell) and some pieces of raid gear. Though those also require you to have a token dropped by the boss, I believe? Or to have killed the boss. Or something. I don't bother with the group end-game content, but that's how it looks to me. Someone with more experience will be able to clarify.
 
-PvP hasn't seen any changes that I know of, but I'm not part of the PvP crowd. 
 
-Some dailies had the number of targets reduced, but they are still the same dailies. There's also new Pvp/Dungeon/Adventure/Shiphand dailies available at the cities, though, and a couple of weeklies that require you to basically do about 100 level 50 quests, including dailies. (or run X dungeons or X PvP matches). 
 
-Classes are still race locked.
 
-AMP drops seem better to me. You can also get them by doing Veteran Shiphands now.
 
The game is still grindy in certain things, though. For instance, the Pouch of Pristine Pigments requires 450 Elder Gems or 250k renown. . And it can still give you pretty cheap dyes instead of the hard to get ones you probably want. The Character Chop Shop has its prices hardcoded for end-game characters. If you aren't interested in group-focused endgame, your progression dies with Veteran Shiphands. But overall, it's quite an improvement over what we had.	
----
			
the randomness has been nerfinated, you can add runes and reroll rune type and the number of rune slots is a set amount
PVP is still a trainwreck
still a grind I guess, if you mean dailies and dailies but there are now more ways to get amp and ability points and you can buy class amps from the renown vendor no more farming trigger figures and the like for months
no, still the same race/class combinations
 
take your 10 day free trail and try out veteran shiphands they are great
also get a new lowbie and try out the new protogames training dungeon - its awesome
or to have your face ripped off try the ultimate protogames level 50 dungeon	
----
			
Hmmm...disappointing that all race/class combos aren't available yet. For a game so focused on gameplay, that seems like a natural feature. 
 
But the rest of what you guys described sounds like a good step forward.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Hmmm...disappointing that all race/class combos aren't available yet. For a game so focused on gameplay, that seems like a natural feature.
 
But the rest of what you guys described sounds like a good step forward.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When I let my sub expire last time, wildstar was missing quite a few needed changes. I see that veteran ship hand missions have finally made it into the game, and that's great!
 
But what I'm curious to know is if the equipment progression at end game he is still super random. If PvP is still a train wreck. If end game is still nothing but ridiculous grind. Are all classes available for all races yet? Did they ever fix amp drop rates? The ability to change your path choice?
 
I do like the combat style of Wildstar, and I see a lot of potential, but I'm very concerned about whether or not carbine actually addressed the major issues plaguing the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
When I let my sub expire last time, wildstar was missing quite a few needed changes. I see that veteran ship hand missions have finally made it into the game, and that's great!
 
But what I'm curious to know [...]
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
On this point, Carbine's said it's DEFINITELY in the future.  This has been essentially guaranteed to happen, it just has to take a backseat to other concerns like getting PVP back into decent shape.  They say it takes a lot of animation to get, for example, a Chua Warrior, so it might be a bit labor intensive.  But this is, as far as I know, definitely coming.  It's just a matter of when.
----
			
Hey Seraph :)
 
Yes, with mega-servers we only have one PvP and one PvE server.	
----
			And yes, they have smelly chua on both :D	
----
			
I'll break it down for ya.
 
PvE content is fun while it lasts.
PvP is a write-off
 
There's still nothing meaningful to do at endgame unless you're planning on getting in a guild and raiding; or RolePlaying in player housing. Also the game is still alt unfriendly. That's not to say things won't be fixed in future but WildStar is still in a pretty crappy place right now.	
----
			
PvP is a write off AT THE MOMENT but there are some good plans for drop 5. PvP servers are a write off though, at least EU side (I'm speaking from the last big guild who were there and last to move, only a few weeks ago)
 
The content that has been released recently is great. If you're into RP n stuff, even more housing things were added (including opening and closing doors, my favourite o.o) and they upped the limit on decor and the amount you can store in your crate. Which for housing nuts like me is awesome :)
 
I'm still waiting for chua warrior/stalker o.o
 
I'd say at the moment if you want to check out the game, it is worth giving the 10day trial a go and then see from there, whether you will resub or not :)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah...no
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll break it down for ya.
 
PvE content is fun while it lasts.
PvP is a write-off
 
There's still nothing meaningful to do at endgame unless you're planning on getting in a guild and raiding; or RolePlaying in player housing. Also the game is still alt unfriendly. That's not to say things won't be fixed in future but WildStar is still in a pretty crappy place right now.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
PvP is a write off AT THE MOMENT but there are some good plans for drop 5. PvP servers are a write off though, at least EU side (I'm speaking from the last big guild who were there and last to move, only a few weeks ago)
 
The content that has been released recently is great. If you're into RP n stuff, even more housing things were added (including opening and closing doors, my favourite o.o) and they upped the limit on decor and the amount you can store in your crate. Which for housing nuts like me is awesome :)
 
I'm still waiting for chua warrior/stalker o.o
 
I'd say at the moment if you want to check out the game, it is worth giving the 10day trial a go and then see from there, whether you will resub or not :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
PvP is a write off AT THE MOMENT but there are some good plans for drop 5. PvP servers are a write off though, at least EU side (I'm speaking from the last big guild who were there and last to move, only a few weeks ago)
 
The content that has been released recently is great. If you're into RP n stuff, even more housing things were added (including opening and closing doors, my favourite o.o) and they upped the limit on decor and the amount you can store in your crate. Which for housing nuts like me is awesome :)
 
I'm still waiting for chua warrior/stalker o.o
 
I'd say at the moment if you want to check out the game, it is worth giving the 10day trial a go and then see from there, whether you will resub or not :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
IIRC, they said that during beta as well.  Doesn't sound like much progress has been made.  xD
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If PvP is still a train wreck.
----
			
you can come onboard. its a fun game....
i guess...
 
but nothing compared to the size of most other AAA mmos out there.
wildstar have barely no activity, forums are slow, in game is mostly dead aside from specific stuff, things takes forever to improve.
 
wildstar is a great B movie.
but don't expect the powerhouses that are wow,gw2,ff14,eso,swtor.
it is more like neverwinter, but slightly better and with a sub.	
----
			
Please stop comparing WS to games that have  years under their belt already. of COURSE it wont be as big
 
edit: eso aside, and lets not talk about the trainwreck that ff14 was its -first- time being released.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Please stop comparing WS to games that have  years under their belt already. of COURSE it wont be as big
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Please stop comparing WS to games that have  years under their belt already. of COURSE it wont be as big
 
edit: eso aside, and lets not talk about the trainwreck that ff14 was its -first- time being released.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
common here... these games started big and ARE big.
lets be lucid.
 
[...]
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How long it's been out for is irrelevant; this game charges the same sub as those games therefore it is directly 'competing' with them.
 
Also ESO was released not long before WildStar but at least it's adding new things to the game (justice system, champion points etc..) instead of just trying to fix the core systems; and they're embracing a smarter pay model. As for FF14, it may have been a trainwreck but WildStar is heading in the same direction.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As for FF14, it may have been a trainwreck but WildStar is heading in the same direction.
----
			Must be troll day at the petting zoo.  All y'all are buying the little pellets and feeding away. :-)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lol YOU be lucid...
 
WoW didn't have a single raid when it started, WoW didn't have a single BGs when it started, WoW only recently got housing, WoW didn't start with a costume system at all, and so on and so forth, it took WoW *years* to get all these features in little by little...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But this game is adding new things... Glory, vet shiphands, daily quests for vets and pvp, new content areas... making things more streamlined.
I don't understand why people are so hard on this game, ESO was a mess at launch, a literal horrible buggy mess... It flopped big time. Just like wildstar lost players so quickly as well, both are making headways to getting new and old players back.
 
Every time I see you post it's negatively about the game, about how others are better... I don't understand the reasoning of staying on the forum of a game you dislike and continuing to say such things :/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wow is form a different generation.
it was a trailblazer.
 
wildstar is not.
wildstar is suppose to be a cash cow.
and it clearly failed at that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This Logic.....
You don't build a cash cow.....
you develop a game into one over time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But this game is adding new things... Glory, vet shiphands, daily quests for vets and pvp, new content areas... making things more streamlined.
I don't understand why people are so hard on this game, ESO was a mess at launch, a literal horrible buggy mess... It flopped big time. Just like wildstar lost players so quickly as well, both are making headways to getting new and old players back.
 
Every time I see you post it's negatively about the game, about how others are better... I don't understand the reasoning of staying on the forum of a game you dislike and continuing to say such things :/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
common here... these games started big and ARE big.
lets be lucid.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Adding new dungeons is a waste of time when no body plays the old ones
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What? Everyone I know does dungeons.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine have the metrics, and I can almost guarantee you that out of all of the people that have played this game, only a tiny percentage of them have done a dungeon.
----
			
It's also disingenuous to say that Carbine needs to swallow their pride and add a group finder.
 
Adding a group finder means creating scalable raids, which means changing the existing raids from what they are now (which are aweseom and fun from what I've experienced so far) into something different.
 
Perhaps they could create scalable raids that are just as fun as the current ones, but it would certainly take time an effort. So it's not just a matter of "swallowing pride".	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carbine have the metrics, and I can almost guarantee you that out of all of the people that have played this game, only a tiny percentage of them have done a dungeon.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's also disingenuous to say that Carbine needs to swallow their pride and add a group finder.
 
Adding a group finder means creating scalable raids, which means changing the existing raids from what they are now (which are aweseom and fun from what I've experienced so far) into something different.
 
Perhaps they could create scalable raids that are just as fun as the current ones, but it would certainly take time an effort. So it's not just a matter of "swallowing pride".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So there are metrics and you know what they are?
 
Last think I heard was the metrics told Carbine that those who did dungeons were most likely to stick with the game. If that's the case, it would imply that most players HAD done dungeons, since the others were more likely to leave.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So there are metrics and you know what they are?
 
Last think I heard was the metrics told Carbine that those who did dungeons were most likely to stick with the game. If that's the case, it would imply that most players HAD done dungeons, since the others were more likely to leave.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Aren't dungeons needed for attunement?
Aren't there several guilds doing GA and DS?
Aren't they 20 mans?
 
Sounds like the 'metrics' are saying people DO run dungeons. Or am I not adding it up right?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think you're also jumping to a conclusion there.  Don't forget the 70% solo number.  They added Protogames Academy to help acclimatize people to Wildstar mechanics in hopes that more people will be inclined to do dungeons.  If that does not succeed then their choices are limited.  They could crank out more Shiphands and Adventures or nerf Dungeons directly or indirectly (via gear).
 
The difficulty level that any of us prefer does not matter.  What does matter is the level that will get enough people to fund the game sufficiently to satisfy the stakeholders (management, investors, etc.).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think what it means is that those who actually did do the dungeons tended to like them and stick around, while people who didn't were more likely to drop it and leave.  That tends to lend credence to the argument that it's not the dungeon difficulty that's the problem, for those that experience it are more likely to enjoy it.  It means, most likely, the people that left either left for completely different reasons before they ever got to a queue or that people left because they believed they couldn't dungeon, thus didn't.
 
Both ideas have some background in logic.  If you're having optimization issues because you're playing on a foot-cranked sewing machine, you will leave before you touch a dungeon.  If you don't like the art style, you won't ever get to a dungeon before you leave if that's your reason for leaving.  You could leave without ever queueing for a dungeon if you saw a bunch of people complain that the endgame was too grindy or nonexistent, and you believe the anti-hype.  I'm sure that constitutes some percentage of players who left.
 
However, I tend to believe the latter rather than the former reason is the primary reason people left without trying them.  I think people tend to believe dungeons are harder than they actually are.  My evidence for this is anecdotal but observable; you've seen the complaints from a lot of people about the lack of "solo" content.  There is a perception this comes from a lack of solo content, and that was likely true to an extent earlier in development, but the idea that it's so ubiquitous from people who don't want to group at all lends credence to the idea that people simply didn't queue up because they didn't.  And it's unfair.  Everyone I've instanced with has a great time, whether we one-shot or wipe out.  The ramp up in players who remain after dungeons is likely entirely based around majority positive reception of the dungeons and their difficulty; they're not impossible but they do require coordination and practice.
 
What it does mean is that the idea that majority of players try the dungeons and leave is probably wrong.  It's more likely they just left before they even tried, probably because the community scared them off.  I mean, how many reports were we getting of the gold-or-rage mentality, or that the dungeons must be impossibly hard?  That seems to absolutely be the case with what you cite, because Carbine do have the metrics at their disposal and they seem FAR more adamant about trying to get people into dungeons than in nerfing them.  That seems to indicate that the problem is in getting people into the dungeon system, not that the dungeons themselves aren't enjoyable.
 
It's kind of why I try to make it a point to run new players through Hycrest, STL, KV, and now PGA.  Not only is it a pretty addicting experience in and of itself, but I want to prove early that these players can do it.  Getting them into that Wildstar mindset, where wiping isn't the end of the world, that all of us die on bosses, that gold medals are optional and not a bare minimum, seems to make the whole game around them better.  Then they don't see walls in the content, they see opportunities.
----
	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
here, here.
 
among all your wall of text you are hitting a very concerning problem for wildstar at the moment: nobody runs the low level dungeons.
they add protostar academy as a big feature but a player will probably have to wait 3+ hours in queue for it.
Now. what that does to the new player's moral ? 
 
and how to improve that? . . . 
----
			5 second queue pop on EU.	
----
			
You should do a test matchmaking as DPS only, since that's the most popular role and the most likely to return high wait times.
 
Though one way to incentivize people into running low level dungeons would be to place a daily.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You should do a test matchmaking as DPS only, since that's the most popular role and the most likely to return high wait times.
 
Though one way to incentivize people into running low level dungeons would be to place a daily.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You should do a test matchmaking as DPS only, since that's the most popular role and the most likely to return high wait times.
 
Though one way to incentivize people into running low level dungeons would be to place a daily.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's the most likely to return a high wait time anywhere in any game, and doesn't seem to really back up the idea that "nobody does low level dungeons".  It would seem to mean more that, as in most games, if you queue for DPS, you wait at the mercy of a tank and healer.  Still, if DPS have a wait time anywhere near what's being suggested here, that means even all the tanks and healers in existence aren't shortening the length.  That means there must be a lot of people queued if a single tank and healer can't pull enough DPS three-by-three fast enough to get the lines down.
 
It does also mean more people should be encouraged to queue for support roles, not that we need more people in the game period.  If we triple the tanks, triple the healers, and triple the DPS, the wait times would not change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
its such a hassle to change your skill/gear/build every time you want to change role... that gets even worst when you start to have pvp gear.
man 2 sets of gear in your backpack that you need to click piece by piece.
i mean, who would even thought it was smart?
and thats not considering that "pvp server" you had to have pvp gear even to quest thus totally fkin up the shit.
and at lower level you only have 1 action set (not that you can't heal in dps gear at low level, but you get the vibe..)
 
it sounds all amazing design to me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
its such a hassle to change your skill/gear/build every time you want to change role... that gets even worst when you start to have pvp gear.
man 2 sets of gear in your backpack that you need to click piece by piece.
i mean, who would even thought it was smart?
and thats not considering that "pvp server" you had to have pvp gear even to quest thus totally fkin up the shit.
and at lower level you only have 1 action set (not that you can't heal in dps gear at low level, but you get the vibe..)
 
it sounds all amazing design to me.
----
			
it totally turn me off playing both Dps + Offspec.
 
as we all know for solo questing you basically need to be a Dps.
 
so why not... make it easier on the tanks and healer ? they need twice the gear, twice the patience, twice the hassle of going thru clumsy UI, etc etc...
give them a candy if you can't make their life better.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
it totally turn me off playing both Dps + Offspec.
 
as we all know for solo questing you basically need to be a Dps.
 
so why not... make it easier on the tanks and healer ? they need twice the gear, twice the patience, twice the hassle of going thru clumsy UI, etc etc...
give them a candy if you can't make their life better.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
it totally turn me off playing both Dps + Offspec.
 
as we all know for solo questing you basically need to be a Dps.
 
so why not... make it easier on the tanks and healer ? they need twice the gear, twice the patience, twice the hassle of going thru clumsy UI, etc etc...
give them a candy if you can't make their life better.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No you don't.
Happily level from 1 to 50 in 4 days as Healer Spec.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The difficulty level that any of us prefer does not matter.  What does matter is the level that will get enough people to fund the game sufficiently to satisfy the stakeholders (management, investors, etc.).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the majority of people think what i think
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
they run it once or twice. maybe a little bit more.
but not nearly enough for queues to pop.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I solo just fine in my tanking gear and LAS on my warrior.  I do maintain a DPS spec and gear set, but I tend to perform better solo as a tank because I'm more used to the setup.  I'm not against getting more for being a tank, but that seems a bit extreme.  I already get queues that seem a lot faster than yours.
 
I'm not sure why you'd need twice the patience, or what's so clumsy about the UI.  I mean, if you have a lot of trouble managing, I can see why you'd want addons, but I've tanked, healed, and DPSed in a number of MMORPGs, including WoW.  Only one so far has not required me to keep track of gear in my bags.  Maybe for someone who hasn't had a tank set in his bags in WoW for ten years would find this distressingly frustrating, but I can't recall it being impossible to manage even in Vanilla when I started.
 
You really have this much trouble navigating the UI and handling an offset of gear?  You should probably join a good guild.  My guildies DPS, and they usually call the guild rather than queue.  Then you don't wait at all.  They can probably teach you how to manage it if you haven't had to in the past.
----
			
 
{| class="blockquote"
its such a hassle to change your skill/gear/build every time you want to change role... that gets even worst when you start to have pvp gear.
man 2 sets of gear in your backpack that you need to click piece by piece.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not everyone who runs dungeons does it in queues. Most people I know in game have run dungeons a lot more than once or twice.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
as a healer i basically did 0 dmg. 0.
no way i could quest with that.
 
i wish everybody was like you Olivar.. thinking that this game rocks and is so cool and well done.
but the unfortunate truth is that the majority of people think what i think... no matter how hard you try to convince me (or yourself?) sometimes you have to let reality bite you and see it for what it is.
i am not here to be convinced. i am here to help the designers.
same way as i fought really hard to get on par pvp gear for everybody months ago.
 
you can't fight my strong design skill...
you can continue to play in your own little world and think that everything goes well.
but the real world, listens to me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
 
Get VinceBuilds. Problem solved (I agree this should have been in the game without add ons, though).
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm sorry. The real world listens to you?
Are you somebody important then?
Otherwise, I don't think I'll care to your pessimitic ramblings.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
the great excuse.
thats why the population is so healthy. probably.. they ALL play with in game paid credd and that is why wildstar doesn't make money.
 
o_O
 
sometimes, you have to look at raw facts.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
5 second queue pop on EU.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
and give a much better incentive for players to tank and\or heal.
considering they need twice the gear and twice the prep, and twice almost everything.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i am the voice of reason. the great designer of life.
like an eldan basically. but, like, smarter ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It matters to me, because, quite bluntly, I don't care if the game survives if it isn't fun for me.
----
			
Keep fighting the unwinnable fight, guys.
 
Thanks for ruining more threads with your petty arguments against people with equal but opposite mindsets! :D
 
"Don't feed the troll" Practice what you preach.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's a pretty selfish outlook. Carbine needs this game to appeal to the majority of players if they want to remain in business.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"Don't feed the troll" Practice what you preach.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I've never preached that. Feeding trolls gives me a false sense of superiority and provides some entertainment when the day is dull.
 
At least I'm honest :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not selfish at all. There are a gazillion games out there I don't care about because they aren't fun for me. This one is. If it ceases to become fun, then it doesn't matter to me whether it fares any better than the rest.
 
I do wish Carbine employees and their families the best in their endeavors, and I certainly won't be upset with them for any changes they need to make to make ends meet. But as a game, if it isn't fun it's the same as it being shut down from my end user experience.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
dude... i CAN manage it.
but it is a HASSLE. dated, old school, non sense design.
 
and putting that burden on players who want to tank or heal just doesn't help the fact that not enough people wants to tank or heal.
 
wake up, we are in 2015.
btw i never played any other "traditional mmos"
i come from Gw2 and some Eso.
 
so maybe... just maybe i see all the flaws of old school ?
and MAYBE that newer, younger players are just totally turned off by it ?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Here's the thing though, they can make the game fun for everyone by adding multiple difficulty levels. Other mmo's do it and it works great. This way you get to enjoy the content as normal, more people get to enjoy it too and Carbine doesn't get shutdown :-) Everybody wins.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The thing is, they would have to create DIFFERENT encounters than what they have, because they (at least the ones I've experienced) are not easily scalable. It's not just a matter of removing mechanics or HP. They are created for 20 people, and trying to make them work with 10 people . . . well, they would have to create a whole new fight.
 
Like or not, the pathway to what you want is not a fast one, and we can argue all day whether it's advisable or not, but that won't change that they aren't creating a 10 man version, or an easier 20 man version, of GA any time soon.
 
There's a reason I'm playing *this* game and not those other MMOs. As great as they may be, I've never experienced what I've experienced in this game. It's what keeps me coming back. If it becomes like all the others, well they can compete for a piece of that market, but I won't be sticking around.
 
I think investing in content like shiphands is the right move. They are brilliant and fun, even when you completely outgear them. There's a lot of room for casual content in this game, perhaps even casual raids in the future (I personally would love to see a Kara style 10 man), but I hope they will always create tightly tuned 20 man raids that take every advantage of the 20 man size rather than trying to come up with ways to make raids work with multiple scales (size and ease).
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Jeff's right.  For every "version" of the encounter they add, that's one more version to create/implement/qa.  Adding 4 new levels of difficulty to one encounter makes it 4 times more studio intensive.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I know it's a lot of work, but one of Wildstars main draws is it's raids, and at the moment only a small percentage of the people that play the game will ever step foot in them. If they continued to make raid content as they currently are it would be a huge waste of time and resources that they could instead be putting into making content that everyone can enjoy. Raid content is a great 'carrot on a stick' to keep people playing & paying; and it could be for maybe half of the players that reach endgame with raid finder instead of current small amount.
 
They have a relatively large studio at the moment so they should make that one of their main priorities, along with the new group finder and fixing PvP. I'll re-iterate on a point I made earlier, players are not happy paying a subscription for developers to create content that said players will never get to experience.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm a bit confused as to the bolded portion.  They haven't, thus far, made any more raid content than what was available at launch.  What they did do was reduce Datascape from a 40 to a 20 man raid.  Unless you consider live tuning and bug fixing to be content... though still they've done more of that elsewhere.  The highest level new content added since launch is UPG, whose veteran version now precedes GA in progression.  Everything else has been everywhere else.  Precisely what content are you referring to?
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sorry, worded that wrong, meant to say as they "currently have". Anyway I know they're still working on Augmentors 20 and I'd imagine they're probably working on something bigger as well, especially since people have started to clear ds20.
 
 
Carbines current approach isn't working though.
 
I haven't personally tried any raid content yet, and won't unless they add raid finder but from what I have heard it doesn't seem like raid content is puggable. I know a lot of people on forums are against raid finder, usually for seemingly arbitrary reasons, but as far as I'm concerned it should be a standard feature in modern mmos and is in most cases.
----
			When did facerolling raid-level content become a modern feature?  :huh:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is, in fact, a non-arbitrary reason it shouldn't be in modern MMOs, and you've raised it previous.  It's because you NEED a lower tier of difficulty to make raid content operable through an automated Group Finder.  That should be a giant waving red flag to you that this is not an arbitrary situation as you've said, but an absolute.  Group Finders are, by your own logic, a wholly inefficient way of putting together a group.  The idea that the game needs to be made orders of magnitude easier on pretty much every conceivable level in order to make it possible to use a Group Finder says everything you don't want to say about the Group Finder.
 
And that's why most people are against it.  It's not, "You can't have it", it's more of, "You actually really don't want it, so why not ask for something else?"  And a giant, coordinated 20 man dance around a boss as a step in progression is precisely that.
 
The proof is in the pudding, though, there is, in fact, puggable raid-sized content.  World bosses are completely puggable.  Lightspire is completely puggable from back to front.  The Ely tree can be done with less, but can only be gold medaled with at least four full groups.  Completely puggable.  And yet, this isn't what you or anyone that wants to raid is actually looking for, or the complaints wouldn't be around.  People say they want a Group Finder, easier raid, but do you?  That content already exists, and it's voluminous.  You've got full raid-sized events, five man content, all of it easy enough that you can handle it with a bunch of random strangers.
 
But that's not what people actually want, they want hard.  They're just not altogether clear on what "hard" entails, though.  They want to accomplish something, but the things at their level already don't feel like accomplishments.  And even if an easy-mode, faceroll, so-easy-a-caveman-could-do-it raid existed, of course it wouldn't be enough.  It'd be a chore, something to do like a daily.  People know that, deep down, otherwise they wouldn't give a flying damn about how hard GA is or isn't.  It's just hard for some people to take the plunge and realize that what they're actually chasing isn't a participation certificate, it's a trophy.  That trophy is cheap plastic if everyone finishes ahead of you, turns around, and walks the finish line back to you.
 
That dichotomy has had WoW chasing its tail for years.  Everyone wants to accomplish something, but when they get something handed to them, it doesn't count as an accomplishment anymore.  So most of us think the raids should be exactly as they are, the same mountain to climb at your own pace or leisure.  We all know that adding EZ mode GA is a stopgap, because if you can PUG it, it's no different than pugging a veteran shiphand.
 
It becomes worthless, and people shout for the next mountain to be brought down to them, hoping it will feel more satisfying.  But you've got another new dungeon in UPG.  You've got a whole tier of content in Veteran Shiphands in case you don't feel comfortable walking into a veteran adventure at 50.  You've got an introductory dungeon now that will literally teach you how to interrupt, dodge telegraphs, and manage threat.  The easier content's been added, and if that's what people actually wanted, they'd have not spoken about GA.
 
People want to clear GA and DS with the prestige that they has, but they don't want to deal with the fight that gives it the prestige they grants.  And if they get what they ask for, they won't get what they want.
 
That's what I'd call a waste of time.  Nobody ever comes on here proud that they cleared a DF SOO.
----
			
You don't seem to understand- it's not JUST adding a raid finder. Adding a raid finder without creating a puggable version of the raids would be a feature not used, because pugging GA is a terrible, terrible experience (unless it's an alt raid).
 
I don't think you understand what I said before, which is that the current encounters defy scaling. They are as great as they are because they were created with 20 people in mind.
 
To give an example- let's say you wanted to make a puggable version of x-89. It doesn't require teamspeak and people can just hop on and do the boss. How are you going to change the mechanic that if 1 of the 20 people drops a small bomb in the middle of the raid then you lose the tile he or she was standing on, killing anyone else who was standing on it. How do you make that mechanic easier? Because if you don't make it easier, it only takes one person messing up to pretty much wipe the raid. And if tiles aren't dropped when a small bomb goes off, then you've lost the fun mechanic the entire fight hinges on.
Or if 10 mans are your thing, let's talk about making a 10 version raid of Kurulak. In Kuralak you have a mechanic where a player becomes an egg, and another player has to break the player out. Next round, both players become eggs, and two more have to break them out. Then all four become eggs. The fight becomes a DPS race because when you hit 16 eggs, you are done for (no one left to break them out) and coordination (figuring out who breaks which eggs). How would you make a 10 man version of this? After 4 eggs, you have to get him down or the raid is done for. But the thing is, 4 eggs is easy to coordinate compared to the 8 egg phase. You basically lose the main mechanic of the fight if you make the boss killable before the 8 egg phase.  And if you want to do a 20 man puggable version, how do you nerf this so it's interesting and fun wtihout destroying the main mechanic?Yeah, Carbine could have made scalable raid enounters, but then we'd not have gotten either of these fights. So the thing is that your requirement for there to be puggable raids means we won't get these kind of fun fights they are creating. A raid finder would limit the developers in how much fun they can jam into an encounter, and the fun encounters they've created are the reason many of us are here.
 
You say that most people aren't raiding, but I really don't know what that number is and neither do you. They've created a lot of great content for people who just want to log on and play, so please just leave the content that keeps ME coming back to play alone.	
----
			Maybe i'm missing something in the convo Slyjeff, but couldnt they just nerf damage with an LFR difficulty mode? nerf it to the point where a pug/lfr group can do the encounter? and if some fights have a complicated enough mechanic on normal mode they could just omit that from pug/lfr versions of the same encounter.  I used to be a regular WoW raider back in the day, but i wasnt around for Cata and when i came back for MoP i was super casual and i just did LFR.  The impression i got was that in LFR mechanics got dropped, damage nerfed, and every fight was pretty much a two tank fight with an tank swap fight every so often.  I forget what Blizzards official reasoning was but i think LFR was added just so that casuals could finally see raid content, not to give people a challenge.  If people wanted a challenge that was what flex mode, normal and heroic mode was for.  Though people used LFR for more then that, like regular raiders using it to cap out valor points or to do the quest for the legendary cloak or whatever.	
----
			
If you remove the small bombs/dropping tiles from x-89, what would be the point? It's the defining characteristic of the fight and the reason that it's fun. Might was well go out and kill Scorch Wing instead (which would be more challenging).
 
I'd hardly consider that "seeing raid content"- that's more like "seeing the room the boss is in".	
----
			
I would really hate a "Raid finder" mode :(
 
The whole fun of raiding is building a group and playing/succeeding together. Maybe I'm just old fashioned though ^-^	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I've done and enjoyed all of the puggable raid content this game has to offer, the reason most people dont bother with them is because the rewards are crap or there's no reason to continue with them after reaching rep cap.(FF14's hunts are an example of this type of content done well) I've done 40man MC, BWL AQ40, AQ20, 10man karazhan, most of TBC's raid content. I've pretty much done every type of raid content imaginable in mmos so difficulty isn't the problem here. I know that if I put my mind to it I could easily do most of Wildstars Raid content too. I also know how rewarding completing extrememely difficult group content is and the rewards (as well as the drama) that goes with being part of a large active raiding guild. Those days are behind me now and I generally don't have the time or interest to do it all again.
 
We can argue whether Raid Finder content is rewarding/easy or not, but that's irrelevant, what is relevant is that Raid Finder has become a staple feature in modern mmo's. WoW has it, FF14 has it, SWTOR has it etc.. The reason that they all have it is because there's a demand for it, there are players that want to experience the instanced raid content of the game but don't want to go through all of the hassle of sorting out guilds, co-ordinating through teamspeak, assigning time slots for raiding. Agian. whether its too easy, mind-numbing, and whatnot is irrelevant, most casual players will only play content that basically holds their hands for the entire duration and can be done with minimum delay, and this is where WildStar falls on its arse.(although Carbine are making some progress) Different difficulty tiers (story mode and normal) are basically the only way that you can accomplish this, otherwise the majority of players will never step foot in a raid which, on carbines part, is an inefficient way to develop content.
----
			
just to Tl;DR Vic's long post:
 
The problem is not dungeons being too hard or too easy, it's simply people having unreal expectations and not wanting to put in effort for the harder content, yet get the same rewards.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you remove the small bombs/dropping tiles from x-89, what would be the point? It's the defining characteristic of the fight and the reason that it's fun. Might was well go out and kill Scorch Wing instead (which would be more challenging).
 
I'd hardly consider that "seeing raid content"- that's more like "seeing the room the boss is in".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Now i havent done the X89 fight yet...but if the damage from those bombs is meant to be avoided in normal mode because it one shots then in an LFR setting it would just do reduced damage and maybe even have its radius reduced if it has one.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I dont care what phrase you use to describe it whether it be seeing raid content, seeing the room, or seeing what its like to be in a group larger than 5 people.  It was for people who for whatever reason could not do normal or heroic mode raids. That doesnt necessarily mean it was meant for people who didnt have the skill for normal/heroic mode raiding...but skill was the lowest common denominator so that is who the raids were tuned for.
 
Now i havent done the X89 fight yet...but if the damage from those bombs is meant to be avoided in normal mode because it one shots then in an LFR setting it would just do reduced damage and maybe even have its radius reduced if it has one.  If the LFR mode is meant to cater to less skilled players then that kind of change would make the most sense.  They may still have to avoid it, maybe they still take a few ticks of damage from it.  But at least they wont have to sit there dead for the rest of the fight because they couldnt dodge the first bomb or whatever.  Now if CRB isnt going to cater to the lesser skilled players but instead people who just have trouble forming large raids then the mechanics would stay and maybe the raid size would go down.  Usually when a skilled person cannot make a normal/heroic raid it is due to time constraints or because they arent in a huge raiding guild.  So possibly a smaller sized raid group might help them with that.  Mechanics would probably stay mostly the same, damage scaled down to adjust for the lower number of healers.
 
Anyways i dont know if you played WoW at all and did 10-25 man raiding or do their LFR.  But its not like this has never been done...other games have done it.  You can look at them and see what they did and how they did it.  And see if it worked or not, or where you could improve on the system and what things should stay the same.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Anyways i dont know if you played WoW at all and did 10-25 man raiding or do their LFR.  But its not like this has never been done...other games have done it.  You can look at them and see what they did and how they did it.  And see if it worked or not, or where you could improve on the system and what things should stay the same.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
just to Tl;DR Vic's long post:
 
The problem is not dungeons being too hard or too easy, it's simply people having unreal expectations and not wanting to put in effort for the harder content, yet get the same rewards.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think it's more an idea of people wanting something they don't really want.  Imagine if I walked into the PVP forum and said, "Look, I want to PVP, but I don't really like dying or losing.  I don't see why we can't just make PVP where you don't kill each other or lose.  You know, like you just hit each other but nobody actually dies or loses the fight, you just hit each other for a few minutes and get prestige and PVP gear."
 
"You know, if you don't like dying or losing matches, do you think you just don't like PVP?"
 
"No, don't be ridiculous!  I've PVPed in a ton of games!  All my life I've played in PVP games, before even MMOs!  I just don't like the inconvenience of dying or losing!  I don't have time to grind up prestige like that, I have a job and a family now!  You elitists just don't want people to get into PVP.  I mean, if nobody died or lost a match, more people would PVP.  Obviously, one of the big reasons PVP is dead is because of how people have to die over and over to learn to PVP.  If we could just get a mode where nobody died and nobody lost a match, and you just got prestige for being there and doing damage to each other, more people would PVP."
 
"Yeah, but... that's not really PVP.  That's a pale imitation of PVP that lacks everything that makes it worthwhile, all in the pursuit of making sure nobody ever doesn't do it."
 
"Well then I guess the game will just die then.  Why do you think no one PVPs in this game?"
 
"... A lot of other, more pertinent reasons."
 
"Fine, stick your head in the sand, then."
 
This discussion isn't any different, really.  It's about people who don't actually want to raid asking to be able to raid without raiding, instead of asking for the kind of content they actually do enjoy.  It's kind of baffling to me that people don't say, "Look, there aren't many raiders out there, and I think people enjoy Shiphands more.  They're scalar, easy to get into, easy to get out of, give gold medals and gear like rain, and I like them.  I really want more!"  I can get behind that.
 
I can't get behind turning a raid into a 20-man random shiphand.  Not only that, I don't think that's actually what people want.  Adding a puggable version of all the raids would, essentially, make just another puddle to jump and subsequently ignore while they rail on the next tier of difficulty they feel is above their heads.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I know it's been done, but my point is that creating these kinds of fights precludes creating the kind of mechanics that a fight like x-89 uses. They were able to create such a fun fight BECAUSE they weren't trying to make it applicable to a bunch of different groups. Specialization has its perks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Depends on who they are catering to with the LFR mode.  If they make LFR for people who just cant make normal mode raids due to schedules or whatever and not because they lack skill then the fight should stay the same, but the raid size would have to be reduced. From there unavoidable damage would just have to be lowered so it could be done with the fewer healers while avoidable damage can stay exactly the same as normal mode version.  It can still one shot, still have huge a huge explosion radius or whatever.  Now if they are making an LFR and it is meant to be for players that are not skilled enough to do normal mode? i dunno if i were a dev i would probably make all the bombs on the X89 fight have the small explosion radius and maybe a slightly longer timer before it goes off.  Since with less skilled players with that mechanic you are going to be dealing with reflex issues i think.  Or if it is tunnel vision then a big ass skull on a players screen may be needed i dunno.
 
Now if they ever design a fight in normal mode where it is impossible to downgrade a boss mechanic into an LFR version, then they should drop that boss mechanic from LFR even if it is what makes the fight unique.  But they should never  design a normal mode boss fight around the fact that they will also have to do it on LFR.
----
			
So . . . . 20 man shiphands?
 
Sounds fun :D	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So . . . . 20 man shiphands?
 
Sounds fun :D
----