115520-say-no-to-f2p-page-3

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No, but SWTOR is....and its thriving like crazy. Never has there been such a turnaround in an MMO (SWTOR is now the 2nd most played MMO in the west), not even the relaunch of FFXIV.
 
If F2P gets my PVP queue to pop, by all means it should go for it...if I play the game, I will subscribe...
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If F2P gets my PVP queue to pop, by all means it should go for it...if I play the game, I will subscribe...
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No, but SWTOR is....and its thriving like crazy. Never has there been such a turnaround in an MMO (SWTOR is now the 2nd most played MMO in the west), not even the relaunch of FFXIV.
 
If F2P gets my PVP queue to pop, by all means it should go for it...if I play the game, I will subscribe...
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I think you're confused.  FFXIV:ARR has 2 million subs that they earned and deserve all the way.  SWTOR has 500k subs, and 500K people getting gouged at every turn.  Who's thriving like crazy? 
 
The statement about SWTOR being the 2nd most played MMO in the west is completely wrong.  It has the second highest revenue (due to their unscrupulous F2P model), but that list didn't include FFXIV:ARR because it launched at the end of the period in which that survey was done.  That doesn't mean it's the most played because clearly FFXIV has four times the subs of SWTOR.
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Not 2 million subscribers, 2 million players. That number doesn't mean active subs it means 2 million players have registered for the game. Furthermore, FFXIV is available in China and is cross platform, so it's drawing from a larger pool of potential players.
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If only Deadeye Brightland was a 16 year old boy rescuing a girl he loved at first sight from the metastasized concept of death, and they found that they could defeat it with the power of friendship.
 
This game could release in Asia and make a killing.	
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I think you're confused.  FFXIV:ARR has 2 million subs that they earned and deserve all the way.  SWTOR has 500k subs, and 500K people getting gouged at every turn.  Who's thriving like crazy? 
 
The statement about SWTOR being the 2nd most played MMO in the west is completely wrong.  It has the second highest revenue (due to their unscrupulous F2P model), but that list didn't include FFXIV:ARR because it launched at the end of the period in which that survey was done.  That doesn't mean it's the most played because clearly FFXIV has four times the subs of SWTOR.
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Say YES to F2P. I'd rather play a good F2P game with a decent population than watch Wildstar die.
 
Stop saying F2P is hell on earth. Granted there are a lot of terrible F2P games out there, but some very succesful and pleasant ones to play as well. It all depends on what kind of F2P they choose to implement and how they do it.
 
 
However, megaservers and F2P will certainly not suffice to save the game. Both PvP and PvE need fixes, improvements and some drastic changes.
They have to make it less of a grind and much more rewarding for instance. Many things have to be account wide to promote rerolling.
And of course the ridiculous and toxic "filthy casual" attitude has to go. Enough of this BS.	
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Say YES to F2P. I'd rather play a good F2P game with a decent population than watch Wildstar die.
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You gotta remember that F2P turns good games into bad games. So you wanna play a worse version of Wildstar? F2P games get hardly any updates as well.. which isn't much different than wildstar now i guess.
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You gotta remember that F2P turns good games into bad games. So you wanna play a worse version of Wildstar? F2P games get hardly any updates as well.. which isn't much different than wildstar now i guess.
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To be fair, if Wildstar's a bit fast and intense for you, I would actually recommend FFXIV:ARR.  And I don't mean that as an insult to the game, it's exactly what I'd want to play if I didn't want Wildstar's chaos.  It's actually decent and very deliberately paced.
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For all to manage your expectations,  in the long run, it doesn't matter how we "feel", it matters how WS/Carbine is performing to NCSoft's bottom line.  NCSoft will be the real determiner to the fate of WS. <_<
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I think this thread can die. We get it. F2P will kill this game. We all acknowledge this. As much as this game has exactly the right theme and personality I won't deal with the F2P crowd or even the cash shop crowd. Shame.
 
 
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Not necessarily. F2P can be bad or good depending on how it's done. 
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I think this thread can die. We get it. F2P will kill this game. We all acknowledge this. As much as this game has exactly the right theme and personality I won't deal with the F2P crowd or even the cash shop crowd. Shame.
 
 
Examples where it's done well as an MMO?
 
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I think this thread can die. We get it. F2P will kill this game. We all acknowledge this. As much as this game has exactly the right theme and personality I won't deal with the F2P crowd or even the cash shop crowd. Shame.
 
 
Examples where it's done well as an MMO?
 
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I think this thread can die. We get it. F2P will kill this game. We all acknowledge this. As much as this game has exactly the right theme and personality I won't deal with the F2P crowd or even the cash shop crowd. Shame.
 
 
Examples where it's done well as an MMO?
 
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SWTOR, Blade and Soul (Chinese release), Rift, Terra.... All good games, with strong player bases (some larger than others). 
 
Like it or not , SWTOR is a great game, still comes out with good expansions (just dropped housing and just before that a full on space dogfighting sim (GSF) which is one of my favourite expansions in any mmo ever, about to drop a new revan expansion..... ) and is bringing in hundreds of millions a year with ~500,000 subs and around a million players. 
 
Blade and soul might not be up everyones alley, but I've had so much fun in the Kor release, the game itself is great and the F2P version in China's only downside is the chinese imposed fatigue system. 
 
The rest should be self explanatory.
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F2P done well = Rift
F2P saving (and growing a game exponentially) = SWTOR
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			Some discussions seem to have a disconnect with others. Largely everyone agrees that Carbine has made some bad choices, and yet there are some that will say "Hey, if they do it right", you're asking them to kill the game then, liek srsly ppl.	
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F2P is just so rarely ever done right that I'm not even going to bother, it's that simple. I am very invested in the game, but if their focus shifts from "Lets make content that'll keep players playing (Hence them getting money)" to "how can we make the most money from this content" I'm simply out of here. And that is what F2P means largely and it's understandable, but I personally think it's the most toxic model out there and it can be abused so disgustingly that I have NO faith companies pulling it off succesfully. 
 
Carbine has a great game going on and it can run on a P2P model, but they have to pull their fingers out of their butts and go into full drive to make this happen. 
 
Also I wouldn't exactly use SWTOR and Rift as F2P done well. SWTOR might be a good game, but you can't even act like it's not riding on a extremely succesful ip (Hint: Star Wars). 
Rift on the other hand is the closest to a carbon copy of WoW you'll ever get. Games can borrow aspects of other games, no problem, but don't take every single aspect from a single game and try to make it your own. It was doomed from the minute it stepped into the market. 
 
But you know, in the end this is not up to you or me, it's up to NCsoft. Whatever they do, it'll happen. 	
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I woudn't have said those were good but to each his own.
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All due respect, I honestly don't think you would be able to look me in the eye and tell me a game (SWTOR) with 500,000 subs and 1 million players is 'not good' no matter how much you personally don't enjoy the game itself. It would be like me saying that, because I personally dislike Indian food, that Indian food isn't good.. even though 1+ billion people enjoy it on a daily basis.
 
point being, not personally liking something is different from something not being good.
 
If W* did F2P like WoW does (free to level XX) and got free players hooked enough to sub, that would be a great way to build players and bring in people who like the game enough to sub.
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That logic is misleading. It's along the lines of "X many smokers can't be wrong". On a personal note I didn't care for swtor because of how they designed scoundrels. That's my problem though.
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F2P done well = Rift
F2P saving (and growing a game exponentially) = SWTOR
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Can't you just buy raid gear in rift now? Hows that done well?
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That logic is misleading. It's along the lines of "X many smokers can't be wrong". On a personal note I didn't care for swtor because of how they designed scoundrels. That's my problem though.
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You are right, if you were able to buy top tier endgame gear, that would not be done well...but you can't, therefore its done well.....
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its not done well, in rift when I was playing there last time(it was about 3 months ago) you could buy tier 1 raiding gear when there was already t2 content available, so it wasn't top tier to buy..but.... by buying it you saved a lots of farming.... for casual player it was like few weeks of playing....
 
and considering level of difficulty in rift, when having full t1 you could easly clean up half of the t2 content...so buying items in rift for real money was really huge adventage... not mention about potions speeding up progress, etc...
 
the true is that there is no good f2p system with item shop....because every developer when realising f2p model think how to get as much money as it is possible from players... so  , every single feature in game become adopted to new model... look at SWOTR example.. or rift....
In SWTOR when playing as f2p you getting reminders all the time, every single minute that you should buy a subscription , because there is so many restrictions in f2p model...want to hide your helmet? you have to pay for it.. want loot from riad? you have to pay for it..... even if you want additional skill bars in UI , you have to pay for it!!!!
 
In rift there is less restricions but cash shop is more into p2w direction by providing a lot of adventages for players willing to spend real money.....
 
hopefully WIldstar will never fall to f2p model , cause it would be end of good game designed to rare breed of players who still looking and enjoying challenges....
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In SWTOR when playing as f2p you getting reminders all the time, every single minute that you should buy a subscription , because there is so many restrictions in f2p model...want to hide your helmet? you have to pay for it.. want loot from riad? you have to pay for it..... even if you want additional skill bars in UI , you have to pay for it!!!!
 
In rift there is less restricions but cash shop is more into p2w direction by providing a lot of adventages for players willing to spend real money.....
 
hopefully WIldstar will never fall to f2p model , cause it would be end of good game designed to rare breed of players who still looking and enjoying challenges....
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What's fundamentally wrong with giving free players a taste of a game, and then making them sub to experience the full package?
Sure microtransactions to unlock single features for an account are annoying; but its essentially all QoL or aesthetic stuff in SWTOR. If you like the game enough, you should sub; if not you can keep playing for free with fewer QoL and Aesthetic things.
 
I personally have zero problem with that type of model, or the extremely similar F2P to level XX like WoW does. A good F2P model gives free players a chance to experience some of the game; then decide if it's worth a paultry single take out meal a month to them. Wildstar would absolutely rock a system like that; because it's gameplay is engaging.
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What's fundamentally wrong with giving free players a taste of a game, and then making them sub to experience the full package?
Sure microtransactions to unlock single features for an account are annoying; but its essentially all QoL or aesthetic stuff in SWTOR. If you like the game enough, you should sub; if not you can keep playing for free with fewer QoL and Aesthetic things.
 
I personally have zero problem with that type of model, or the extremely similar F2P to level XX like WoW does. A good F2P model gives free players a chance to experience some of the game; then decide if it's worth a paultry single take out meal a month to them. Wildstar would absolutely rock a system like that; because it's gameplay is engaging. 
 
P2W systems are hard to justify; and you'll get no attempt from me (not that I necessarily hate them, and I admit to even enjoying them on the Free RO servers); but P2W by and large is just a terrible idea period. F2P with a cash shop is fine if the shop is all aesthetic/ QoL and if subs are provided with shop currency simply for being subbed... 
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The problem is SWToR gives you the whole game not just a taste like WoW does f2p to level 20, f2p in SWToR means you have to pay to do more than one space mission, you have to pay to pvp, your chat is greatly limited and so on, f2p is a bad idea.
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What's fundamentally wrong with giving free players a taste of a game, and then making them sub to experience the full package?
Sure microtransactions to unlock single features for an account are annoying; but its essentially all QoL or aesthetic stuff in SWTOR. If you like the game enough, you should sub; if not you can keep playing for free with fewer QoL and Aesthetic things.
 
I personally have zero problem with that type of model, or the extremely similar F2P to level XX like WoW does. A good F2P model gives free players a chance to experience some of the game; then decide if it's worth a paultry single take out meal a month to them. Wildstar would absolutely rock a system like that; because it's gameplay is engaging. 
 
P2W systems are hard to justify; and you'll get no attempt from me (not that I necessarily hate them, and I admit to even enjoying them on the Free RO servers); but P2W by and large is just a terrible idea period. F2P with a cash shop is fine if the shop is all aesthetic/ QoL and if subs are provided with shop currency simply for being subbed... 
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You are right, if you were able to buy top tier endgame gear, that would not be done well...but you can't, therefore its done well.....
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But you can skip weeks of time gating that you would otherwise have to endure to get the gear needed to succeed in raids by simply purchasing it. No, that is not done well.
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Why I hate FTP (courtesy of EverQuest2):
 
Devs are then forced to spend a majority of their time developing content for pay. Stuff that you can get in game are ALWAYS worse in appearance. All the cool looking gear/house items are always for pay. Races no longer come as part of the game, you need to pay for it (which I never did, F that noise). You see literally a 2:1 ratio between items developed for sale in the cash store to items developed for distribution through in-game means. Free to Play characters cry endlessly about their restrictions, no matter how minimal they are. Devs are then forced to decide if they will change restrictions (something EQ2 did several times, until the only difference between paying a sub and not paying a sub at one point was literally things like $5 of cash store money each month, and 2 lottery tickets).
 
The birth of the cash shop in EQ2 was the slow painful death of EQ2. Sure, it's still going, but it's only the shell of the game it used to be. It used to have deep, well made expansions full of quests, unique crafting items, cool looking gear, and new raid mechanics to learn. Now the expansions are usually copy and paste of the same 3 zones in different order, boring gear, stupid slapped-together mechanics in an attempt to make it "hard" (more often than not, they were just horribly broken), and almost no new crafting.	
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SWTOR, Blade and Soul (Chinese release), Rift, Terra.... All good games, with strong player bases (some larger than others). 
 
Like it or not , SWTOR is a great game, still comes out with good expansions (just dropped housing and just before that a full on space dogfighting sim (GSF) which is one of my favourite expansions in any mmo ever, about to drop a new revan expansion..... ) and is bringing in hundreds of millions a year with ~500,000 subs and around a million players. 
 
Blade and soul might not be up everyones alley, but I've had so much fun in the Kor release, the game itself is great and the F2P version in China's only downside is the chinese imposed fatigue system. 
 
The rest should be self explanatory.
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All due respect, I honestly don't think you would be able to look me in the eye and tell me a game (SWTOR) with 500,000 subs and 1 million players is 'not good' no matter how much you personally don't enjoy the game itself. It would be like me saying that, because I personally dislike Indian food, that Indian food isn't good.. even though 1+ billion people enjoy it on a daily basis.
 
point being, not personally liking something is different from something not being good.
 
If W* did F2P like WoW does (free to level XX) and got free players hooked enough to sub, that would be a great way to build players and bring in people who actually enjoy the game.
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Honestly, when it comes to an IP like Star Wars, which has a bigger following than pretty much anything else, and a large percentage of whose fans are also gamers, having only 1 million active players is a complete waste. 
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Too bad that sentiment isn't making my PVP/Dungeon queues pop...../sigh
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IP doesn't do much for MMO's... at least it never has, I don't see why it would now. 
 
Final Fantasy is one of the most popular franchises in the history of videogames; that didn't stop FFXIV from being a massive failure. The game was terrible, and IP can't save terrible games. SE had to literally redo the whole game just to get it to some measure of profitability (XIV:ARR). The same with WAR; one of the most prolific fantasy IP's in the world, that couldn't save WAR from the trash bin.
 
the Star Wars IP didn't save SWG,  why act like the reason SWTOR is popular is because of the IP when you know the starwars IP hasn't helped starwars MMO's in the past... 
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Personally, I attribute a load of WoW's success to the fact that it was WarCraft, and followed WC3, with heroes and custom RPG maps that made people want a bigger game based on those mods.  SWG was closed because their license was revoked to make way for SWTOR.  As far as its original launch went, I tried it and found the game to have such poor production values that I couldn't believe they were awarded the license.  So yes, shitty games will always fail, regardless of the IP, but a lot about SWTOR made it redeemable, including its production value.  As most people like to say, it really should have been KOTOR 3 because the single player components were the best parts.
 
Warhammer is not a big IP.  It's a very niche IP in this crowd.
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Uhm.. I call BS because I just queued as a tank 10 times for first available vet dungeons, and got 10 dungeon pops within 10 seconds of queuing (23:33 on a Saturday).  Then I queued for each vet dungeon individually to see if there was any difference and to make sure I wasn't just getting pops for groups in progress.  Same result.  You were complaining about tank queue times weren't you?  DPS queues are obviously going to be poor.
 
You don't have "My Realm Only" checked or something do you?
 
My PVP queue for practice grounds is popping within 4 minutes.
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You can call BS all you want, it doesn't change reality..
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			Don't go free to play	
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You're queuing for what exactly, and when?
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I have yet to have a non 50 PVP queue pop....which is absolutely terrible...
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I don't understand how this is not expected.  The vast majority of the population has already capped, and if they're PVP-centric they're doing rated.  Low bracket practice BGs are not exactly a huge draw.
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That is an absolute complete and utter cop out. Low bracket PVP queues pop within 5 min in WoW, SWTOR, Rift...heck, even in AoC...If its "to be expected" in Wildstar, I guess you are confirming that I cannot level in WS via PVP (something ppl do in pretty much every MMO on the market that has PVP), I might as well cancel my sub then, no?
 
Instead of trying to pass off the fact that WS pretty much has no new players joining the game as "normal", wouldn't it be good to instead suggest ways to get people back into the game?
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WoW lets you stop levelling up from PVP experience.  There's an entire sub-culture of WoW players that twink low level alts for low bracket PVP.  Wildstar doesn't have these features.
 
SWTOR lets you play class stories for free, so everyone rerolls alts to do just that because it's the only part of the game worth playing.  If you're rerolling that many alts then yeah, there's going to be people to fight.  As far as I can tell, alting isn't very popular in Wildstar aside for the extra storage and housing plots.
 
Can't speak for Rift, never played it.  Same for AoC. 
 
Perhaps I am confirming it.  High level PVP has more serious problems that need to be resolved (warplots need to be reworked so they actually happen, among other things).  Low level PVP really isn't a priority at the moment.
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Which isn't "normal" for MMOs, so please stop that schtick. So, going back to my initial comment before you "called BS" on it, Carbine needs to do something to get people back playing the game, stat. I don't care if its F2P at this point, I pretty much wasted 15$ on Tuesday..
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It's not a schtick, and it's not a reason to go F2P.
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You kind of did.  For low bracket PVP to pop reliably one of three things:
 
1) The ability and people to create characters that can stop levelling at a whim specifically for that purpose.
2) High value of alting to incentivise rolling multiple characters.
3) Enough new players joining on a daily basis for there to be low level characters levelling up for all eternity.
 
Sure, opening up F2P would give you a sudden influx of new players, but that would dry up eventually to the point where you're right back in the situation you're in now.  You need 1) or 2) to keep the cycle going once your active player count has stabilized, and it will always stabilize, F2P or not.	
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There are no easy answers, but I see F2P as an inevitability in the face of an increasingly hostile market. IMO its not matter of if, but rather when.   
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I play SWTOR and I can tell you, everything you just listed can be purchased by free players without a single real penny being dropped. All one would need to do is farm in game currency and purchase the unlocks off the player market.
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Also, for other people who haven't tried it at all, there might be a concern associated with paying $60 and then another $15 each month without knowing for sure that they will actually get their money's worth out of it, so they just avoid it altogether in lieu of other games that they know for sure they will like/don't have to pay monthly for, and ultimately never find out if they actually enjoy this game or not.
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Yes, the old "if I don't get what I want, I'll take my toys and go home" approach does so well in keeping a business running. Sinking a company over something so petty sure looks good on a resume.
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All due respect, I honestly don't think you would be able to look me in the eye and tell me a game (SWTOR) with 500,000 subs and 1 million players is 'not good' no matter how much you personally don't enjoy the game itself. It would be like me saying that, because I personally dislike Indian food, that Indian food isn't good.. even though 1+ billion people enjoy it on a daily basis.
 
point being, not personally liking something is different from something not being good.
 
If W* did F2P like WoW does (free to level XX) and got free players hooked enough to sub, that would be a great way to build players and bring in people who actually enjoy the game.
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add into that mix the people with more money than consideration or the "f u I can do wut I want cuz no 1 pays loozer" crowd... and no... its not a good group of games.
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			idk why people are against f2p, they have a pretty easy way to make f2p work.  Housing, the amount of time I've seen people put towards housing easy cash flow.  Mounts, people love looking cool so costumes would also be an easy one.  Then there's the easy XP boosts, etc... and there's already a credd system.  They'd just need to make credd more valuable for people who will buy it.In order for an MMO to survive you need players and by players you need a lot of noobs to flourish the market, etc... 	
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I really didn't see that crowd in SWTOR, but then again it must have been dependent on what server people were on.
 
Making extra money off the whales/swtor fanboys was unfortunately the bigger part of making the game successful financially, but bringing in extra players was essential to keep those whales/fanboys (&girls) interested.
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Free to play isn't a guarantee of success, and it will take a significant amount of new players spending lots of money to break even with current subscription levels.
 
It ain't going F2P.	
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idk why people are against f2p, they have a pretty easy way to make f2p work.  Housing, the amount of time I've seen people put towards housing easy cash flow.  Mounts, people love looking cool so costumes would also be an easy one.  Then there's the easy XP boosts, etc... and there's already a credd system.  They'd just need to make credd more valuable for people who will buy it.
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Free to play isn't a guarantee of success, and it will take a significant amount of new players spending lots of money to break even with current subscription levels.
 
It ain't going F2P.
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I doubt they are breaking evening right now.
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Now you're discriminating against housing enthusiasts.  XP boosts are P2W
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Just do some basic math. How many players paying a guaranteed $15/month do you need vs. how many players to have 3% of them spend enough to match that revenue.
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They spent 7 years building this game, millions had to be put into the game by now, I can't imagine them making all that money back by now.
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Just do some basic math. How many players paying a guaranteed $15/month do you need vs. how many players to have 3% of them spend enough to match that revenue.
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Where are you getting the 3% from, you could look at SWTOR as an example their subs have stayed fairly static at around 500k, and their revenue shows that only around 40% of their revenue is coming from people paying for services other than subs. While there may be a small number of subs under 10% paying that extra 40%, the game itself is good without that portion of the revenue to be honest. And much healthier than Wildstar is, I would be highly surprised if come November when the NCsoft 3rd quarter results are posted if they are close to breaking their $9mill budget.
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You kind of did.  For low bracket PVP to pop reliably one of three things:
 
1) The ability and people to create characters that can stop levelling at a whim specifically for that purpose.
2) High value of alting to incentivise rolling multiple characters.
3) Enough new players joining on a daily basis for there to be low level characters levelling up for all eternity.
 
Sure, opening up F2P would give you a sudden influx of new players, but that would dry up eventually to the point where you're right back in the situation you're in now.  You need 1) or 2) to keep the cycle going once your active player count has stabilized, and it will always stabilize, F2P or not.
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3% (less than that, actually) is an industry standard micro-transaction conversion average. It's possible some games have higher conversion rates, that's the whole point of an average, right?
 
But by and large it would take a 900% increase in players to match the current subscription revenue, regardless of how many subscribers they have. Will f2p do that? No way.
 
It makes much more sense to keep the subscription and add value for those players.
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http://www.pcgamer.com/ubisoft-analyst-criticizes-league-of-legends-monetization-warns-other-studios-not-to-try-it/
 
Ummm 15-25% is the norm according to Ubisoft and LoL which is on the low side of FTP conversion is at 3.75%... so again where does 3% come from?
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http://www.pcgamer.com/ubisoft-analyst-criticizes-league-of-legends-monetization-warns-other-studios-not-to-try-it/
 
Ummm 15-25% is the norm according to Ubisoft and LoL which is on the low side of FTP conversion is at 3.75%... so again where does 3% come from?
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From many quotes over the last few GDCs from MMO devs and producers.
 
Here's one the latest.
 
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report
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From many quotes over the last few GDCs from MMO devs and producers.
 
Here's one the latest.
 
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report
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Ummm isn't that for MOBILE gaming? I don't see how mobile gaming has any impact on the MMO crowd as a lot of mobile gamers don't play PC games.
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Guys... guys... guys. It's virtually the same.
 
This data is not easily readily linkable for free on the web, but I can assure you after attending 10 years of conferences and summits on games business, this is the number for the broad f2p category. Some games will be higher, some lower.
 
If I find more public numbers I will post them. For now, realize that I'm right -- and the number of free players needed to make up for current subscription levels is in the neighborhood of 900%. It ain't happening.	
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Guys... guys... guys. It's virtually the same.
 
This data is not easily readily linkable for free on the web, but I can assure you after attending 10 years of conferences and summits on games business, this is the number for the broad f2p category. Some games will be higher, some lower.
 
If I find more public numbers I will post them. For now, realize that I'm right -- and the number of free players needed to make up for current subscription levels is in the neighborhood of 900%. It ain't happening.
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Lol, he actually believes the words coming out of his mouth and has the audacity to say "For now, realize that I'm right". :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  Oh the humanity.
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I have knowledge and experience that back me up. What do you have?
 
DO the *cupcake*ing math, it's not hard to see.
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I have knowledge and experience that back me up. What do you have?
 
DO the *cupcake*ing math, it's not hard to see.
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15 years of MMO gaming and played everything from FTP to BTP to subs and raided in every 'hardcore' MMO to date. But you know, that must mean nothing to the likes of King Troll.
 
If you fail to see that Wildstar is in free fall, then the blinders are strong with this one.
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Just as an aside, I'm wondering since you've said this many times, what IS your experience? I'm genuinely curious as you do seem to have a good insight (whether we disagree or not) on the industry.
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I have knowledge and experience that back me up. What do you have?
 
DO the *cupcake*ing math, it's not hard to see.
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*Gets proven wrong*
 
"Trust me gaiz, I am right because I have insider knowledge"
 
The white knighting on these forums is the most entertaining of any game I have ever seen lol.	
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1) Merging all brackets with lower lvl stat boosts
2) - or - Allowing max lvl players to scale down their stats with low lvl friends for PVP (similar to what happens when a lvl 30 queues for a lvl 20 dungeon).
3) Making levels 1-20 F2P (similar to WoW)
4) Going all out F2P (last resort).
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There are more and more F2P games every day.     
      
That means that any game trying to survive on the F2P model is going to have to compete with an ever expanding number of also free games. 
 
There is very little barrier to ditching a game if there is no financial investment.
 
Personally, I think that the F2P model is doomed. There will be too many F2P games, and players will flutter from new shiny to new shiny, never providing a reliable income to any game.
 
Five to ten years from now there will be a wasteland of dead farmville-esque MMOs and nothing good to play because there is simply no money in it anymore.
 
Edit: someone elsewhere in the thread linked to this article that predicts the same, only faster than I do.
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*Gets proven wrong*
 
"Trust me gaiz, I am right because I have insider knowledge"
 
The white knighting on these forums is the most entertaining of any game I have ever seen lol.
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idk why people are against f2p, they have a pretty easy way to make f2p work.  Housing, the amount of time I've seen people put towards housing easy cash flow.
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*Gets proven wrong*
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I do contract consulting work for one of the industry's large media organizations which gives me access to proprietary data and research.
 
Note: this doesn't put me in the boardroom of any publisher or studio to know specific numbers. But it gives me a damn good idea.
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Where?
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I honestly have no problems with 1-3.  Setting a level playing by adjusting stats like GW2 boosting all characters to level cap and giving out free PVP gear is great (but it's not low level PvP).  Do it.
 
Making levels 1-20 F2P like WoW is also perfectly fine.  It's a free unlimited trial.  Do it.
 
Just not full out F2P.
 
The thing is, WoW launched without any of these systems too.  What is happening now in the absence of such things is expected, and normal, and will get resolved at some point.
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I honestly have no problems with 1-3.  Setting a level playing by adjusting stats like GW2 boosting all characters to level cap and giving out free PVP gear is great (but it's not low level PvP).  Do it.
 
Making levels 1-20 F2P like WoW is also perfectly fine.  It's a free unlimited trial.  Do it.
 
Just not full out F2P.
 
The thing is, WoW launched without any of these systems too.  What is happening now in the absence of such things is expected, and normal, and will get resolved at some point.
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I am not the silly one in this conversation.
 
You are literally white knighting that its perfectly normal to have a completely dead 1-49 game, and that "I'm talking crazy" by "expecting" otherwise.
 
You can come up with all the excuses for why WoW and SWTOR are absolutely thriving in their lower brackets, but the fact remains that its not just WoW and SWTOR with thriving lower brackets, its pretty much every MMO on the market not named Wildstar...
 
Go queue at lvl 15 in WoW, SWTOR, Rift, TSW, AoC, DCUO, and the list goes on and on.....guess what, you don't wait 2+ hours in queue in any of those games.
 
Some possible fixes for this include:
 
1) Merging all brackets with lower lvl stat boosts
2) - or - Allowing max lvl players to scale down their stats with low lvl friends for PVP (similar to what happens when a lvl 30 queues for a lvl 20 dungeon).
3) Making levels 1-20 F2P (similar to WoW)
4) Going all out F2P (last resort).
 
Now, all of those suggestions have negatives as well, but the good (actually being able to do things at lvl 1-49) definitely outweigh the bad.
 
See what I did there? I'm making suggestions to correct the issue. You on the other hand, are trying your best to make it seem like I have "impossible expectations", and that I'M the problem, not the game...
 
You are precisely what is wrong with Wildstar's remaining community...
 
.
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*Gets proven wrong*
 
"Trust me gaiz, I am right because I have insider knowledge"
 
The white knighting on these forums is the most entertaining of any game I have ever seen lol.
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don't know if its good or bad that the forums are more entertaining than the game at times..
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It is bad for the game at the moment hopefully it can be turned around. I am not hopeful for PVP but while I still have active CREDD am keeping a weary eye on it.
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			I was not referring to F2P being bad for the game, I am actually for whatever means brings people back to the game. Because more players may make PVP happen and be fun again.	
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This is kind of veering off topic, but... So you are of the belief that games should not learn from predecessors... Each new video game should not have to go through the same evolutionary process as the ones that came before it. You look at what worked very well and you see about including it from the start.
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It really isn't a surprise to me that low level areas are not as populated as high level ones.  They always will be, and they are in every MMO ever made that uses levels.
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Nobody is saying otherwise....what we ARE saying, is that its NOT "perfectly normal" or "to be expected" that the 1-49 PVP and Dungeons queues are absolutely empty. Forget SWTOR (you seem to have a somewhat cleverly sarcastic/negative excuse as to why each individual MMO we mention has thriving low lvl group queues). Pick any other MMO on the market with dungeon/pvp queues....none of them are complete pre endgame ghost towns queue wise like Wildstar is.
 
Stop, for the love of all that is holy, implying that this is "normal and to be expected".....
 
You have spent 10 times more effort trying to convince yourself that "this is normal/we have crazy expectations", than actually suggesting what Carbine can do to fix it.
 
Once again, you are precisely what is wrong with Wildstar's remaining small community....
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No, I haven't spent any effort convincing myself because it's what I've seen in every game I've ever played.  It doesn't take any convincing on my part.
 
What I am saying is that it is not a priority (by a long shot) compared to the problems there are at level cap that need addressing. You're the problem, not me, because you're more interested in fixing transient content instead of fixing and growing the elder game.
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Getting new players should be the next highest priority.  There's no point in drawing in new players if the problems that caused the others to quit are still present in the elder game where people spend most of their time.  Carbine has the same belief (their own words from the interview), which is why they aren't opening wide spread free trials, or marketing the game very heavily until after they fix a lot of the "big issues" in the next patch.
 
Warhammer open world RVR was dead at low levels after launch, and that was their raison d'etre.  Queues for battlegrounds were also 30 min+ as a healer at level cap.  I've had 1-2 hour DPS dungeon queues in FF14 and TERA, both while levelling up.  If you level slower than average, you will always experience longer queues.  I've had 1 hour queues as DPS in WoW at level cap before they introduced dungeon dailies.
 
This is par for the course.
 
If you have no patience for software development, then you might as well take a break.  Otherwise wait it out.  I'm waiting out the itemization progression preventing dungeons from being more popular, but you don't see me whining about it.	
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I ask for 1 game that has non endgame PVP/dungeon queues that never pop, and you respond with Warhammer Online open world PVP being dead?.... Warhammer PVP queues at all levels were never dead, even until the day it shut down. Whats your clever excuse for that? Let me guess, "that's because it was a PVP focused game"?
 
So far you have given me examples of your experience sometimes waiting up to an hour before your queues for PVE dungeons at endgame as DPS popped.....I can give you examples in SWTOR even where i waited 45 min in queue for a dungeon as a healer....you know what I can't do? Give you an example where I waited 2 and a half hours in a PVP queue that never popped on a Tuesday evening in any game other than Wildstar....
 
At least you are confirming now that PVP not poppiing at all is pretty much unheard of before Wildstar. I am happy you have thus stopped A) "calling BS" on it actually being an issue in Wildstar (thats how this discussion started, remember?), and B ) That its "completely normal".	
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Pick any other MMO on the market with dungeon/pvp queues....none of them are complete pre endgame ghost towns queue wise like Wildstar is.
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EQ2
 
the PVP queue is a little better than the PVE one, but literally no one uses the PVE dungeon finder, even at top level =P I've only ever PVP'd at lower than top level a few times, but it was always a decent wait if I wasn't a healer (at least 15 mins).
 
Sorry, you wanted an example, and there is one.
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I queue for PVP all the time in EQ2 (non endgame)....granted the queues avg about 40 min, but they pop....and have never taken 2.5 hours. I can give you examples all day long of PVE queues that take a while, but I cant give you any that take 3 hours (i've been sitting in queue for 3 hours right now on a lvl 32 medic, screenshots can be provided if you wanna "call BS" again like Gungan) and never pop.
 
I asked for an example of one that takes 2.5 hours and never pops, you respond with a "15 min" example....you just proved my point. The sad thing is, thats a 10 year old game with enough low lvl players to sustain reasonable PVP queues at all levels...
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			If WS goes Fail2play i'll be out of here faster then you can say "World of Warcraft"	
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If WS goes Fail2play i'll be out of here faster then you can say "World of Warcraft"
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			I would rather the game go free to play than be shut down.	
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I would rather the game go free to play than be shut down.
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If wildstar went f2p, I'd probably just give up on mmo's altogether.
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I would rather the game go a million other directions than free to play if subs aren't cutting it.  F2P vs Shutdown is a false dichotomy.
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You're right it's not a dichotomy but it's not about "one way or another" it's about doing the best to preserve 10 years of work .
TERA went free to play and the game exploded into popularity, they also avoid the vicious problem of major Pay To Win tactics.
 
What exactly do you suggest?
If WildStar fails to maintain as a Pay to Play, where do we go from here?
Buy 2 Play with a Cash shop(Guild Wars 2)
Pay 2 Play with a Collectables shop in the character/account services?(World of Wacraft)
Free 2 Play with a fair and just vanities collectables+Elite account advantages(TERA)
Free 2 Play with Whales focused pay to win?(most korean F2P)
 
What path do you suggest we follow.
 
Hopefully Carbine never has to make this decision, but in the end, I'd rather not lose the ability to play my bunnygirl dream characters. Savvy?
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I've actually answered this a couple times in this thread alone.  Let me go find a post with all of it in there.
 
EDIT:  Here's the most succinct one (though it lacks the details of the parent thread I made on the subject).
 
 
 
Also, it should be pointed out that in the recent Massively interview, Donatelli said there are still hundreds of thousands (thus 200k+) active accounts and there are no plans on the table right now to change the business model.
 
Also, I'm on record saying that if it's guaranteed that the game doesn't go F2P, I'll buy the sub in advance for all the time they maintain that.  If for the next quarter, I'll buy three months of sub time.  Six months?  I'll do that, too.  I'll also buy a year's sub if they say the game's not going F2P until at least November of next year.  I'll back Carbine as long as NCSoft does.
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I prepurchased a year.
I'm the kinda person that likes to have access to a game at all times, and I paid for full year subs back to back for WoW just so I could play anytime I wanted.
Point is that I don't want to loose constant access to the games that I like playing.
 
I'd rather they go NON WHALE TARGETTED F2P model if push comes to shove.
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
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I was about to link the same video:P
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The MMO that my friend and I are writing up the concept work for, we were actually designing the game's F2P model around that long before that video came out.
That video game out and we both felt so validated because we were questioning the viability of it in the market state right now.
Extra Credits has been a guide for me at least for game design for a long time. I sure hope their advice can lead to a marketable product and fun game that's fair to players and developers.
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To be honest though, it could be the fairest system in the world, and I still wouldn't play it because it feels like nickel and diming.
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The point of the design at least for the one I'm working on is to feel optional.
I've designed the core game to be playable from the ground up to not allow anyone to throw money at the screen and beat another player. Screws up competative and fair play.
So that a lot of people can pay maybe 5~15$ in a month if they'd like and still have all the same gameplay experience as everyone else. It doesn't click for some people but it's better to have an option out there for people who'd want fair and competitive gameplay without an upfront cost.
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I prepurchased a year.
I'm the kinda person that likes to have access to a game at all times, and I paid for full year subs back to back for WoW just so I could play anytime I wanted.
Point is that I don't want to loose constant access to the games that I like playing.
 
I'd rather they go NON WHALE TARGETTED F2P model if push comes to shove.
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
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This AGAIN?
 
Guys. It's not up for a vote. It's not ever going to be up for a vote.
 
If NCSoft thinks the game will make more money as F2P, it will go F2P, or B2P at a minimum. They will not ask the opinions of any of the current players, because there aren't enough to keep the game as profitable as they want it to be or this wouldn't even be an issue.  NCSoft won't do this to ruin your game or *cupcake* you off -- they will do it, if they do it, because the alternative is shutting the game down. And while there are some terrible people out there who believe that the game should shut down if it isn't run in a way that suits them, I'm sure NCSoft doesn't share that opinion, and they own the game and call the shots.  Not the players. Not the devs. If the devs try to stage a revolt to stop an F2P conversion, they'll be out on their butts in under an hour with a burly security guard right behind them handing them the box containing the personal items from their desks.
 
NCSoft owns this game. All of it. Every last server, every line of code, every bit, every byte. 
 
NCSoft is very fond of making money. NCSoft supports the development of games in order to make money and not for any other reason.  This is their business model and they have been absolutely true to it -- just check their history. There were more than a few people who refused to even try Wildstar, just on the grounds that NCSoft produced it and NCSoft has a well-deserved reputation for not coddling underperforming MMOs, meaning that yes, failure to perform would mean serious changes in very short order.  If you thought differently when you signed on, you didn't do your research.  
 
If Wildstar is not performing financially -- and signs certainly point that way -- Wildstar will change or Wildstar will die.  
 
The only possible difference all of this flailing and screaming about "NO F2P NOOOOO!" could possibly make is to convince NCSoft that there's no point at all in trying to salvage the game with a business model transition, so that they just shut it down instead, without even trying to save it.  The notion that by screaming how much you hate talk of F2P on the forums you can somehow ...uh....make NCSoft feel guilty or something so they become magically okay with pouring more money into an underperforming product because that's less painful to them than listening to you all scream...or...something?...is...well, it's incomprehensible. I just don't follow what you're hoping to accomplish.  NCSoft couldn't give two damp splats about what the game's players want -- ask any CoX fan.  They are not suddenly going to start caring about player preferences, either.  They care about financial performance, and that's it.  
 
I swear when I read threads like these -- just like the old threads that used to pop up about how casuals were all whiners and needed to GTFO of Wildstar because it was for TEH LEETS ONLY -- all I can think is, "With fans like these, Wildstar has no need of enemies."  If you can't have the game the way you want it, you'd rather it died so that no one can enjoy it, like the Dog in the Manger. (Google it if you're not familiar.)  Unsub by all means if you don't like whatever model change NCSoft and Carbine come up with (and yes, there will be one), because that is absolutely your right and you should exercise it,  but stop trying to extort NCSoft with threats. It won't work.  The only possible change you could make is that you kill the game completely.  
 
So if that's your goal -- carry on! 
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