Report 251

Report #251
Skillset: Sacraments Skill: Heretic/Infidel
 Org: Celestines Status: Completed Aug 2009
Furies' Decision:
Heretic line no longer cured by focus spirit.
Problem: Since Focus Spirit was added as a complete cure for Infidel, the
Inquisition line of attack has been severely weakened. It appears there are
going to be no other changes in this regard (I though someone mentioned a
disadvantage for using focus spirit to cure these?), this is the problem as I
see it. When a target is hit with Infidel, they can simply focus spirit and
waste 6p and a fair chunk of the Celestine's time. It removes the ability for
the Celestine to progress to Inquisition and also blocks synergy with absolve
(which requires 8p and the prompt will have, at max, 6p).
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Lower the cost of heretic to 2p, and the cost of
 infidel to 1p. Increase the cost of Inquisition to
 9p. This leaves the cost for the trio at the same as
 it is currently, but allows for the Celestine to work
 towards Absolve if the target decides to use focus
 spirit. It also increases the value of the skills for
 Paladins, who get very little out of Sacraments
 offensively.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2:
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3:
Player Comments:
---[Xenthos on 8/20 @ 02:42 writes]:
Hm. Aren't these skills already used, at their current cost, for affliction
stacking? The afflictions are already pretty useful. I'm not really sure that
they need to cost less. Unless you want to severely nerf the affliction part of
the equation, this is looking pretty unbalanced from that standpoint. You could
make Heretic have no afflictions at all and Infidel have a very minor effect.
This way, you are spending 3p to get someone into "inquisition range" though you
are not hindering at all. At this point, they then have the choice of trying to
cure it to stop inquisition (which wastes 3p and burns a lot of mana), or trying
to circle / run / whatever.
---[Ilyarin on 8/20 @ 03:41 writes]:
Heretic and Infidel are very rarely used (to the point of never almost being
acceptable to say) by warriors, because power is better spent elsewhere. By
Celestines, it is my belief they are mostly used as a lead up to Inquisition,
although the aff stacking is obviously helpful (one aff every 3.0 seconds). I
think removing the afflicting potential however would completely neuter the
skills and make the finale even more laughable than in its current incarnation
(very difficult to pull off against higher tiers). It would also leech from the
already lacking offensive available to Paladins in the skillset.
---[Xenthos on 8/20 @ 22:24 writes]:
Now, that's not true. I have seen Paladins use the first one for the
afflictions. Occasionally the second, but usually not. However, I am offering
this as an alternative-- the afflictions are pretty good at their current cost.
If the cost is lowered, you are making the afflictions -much- easier to just
plop on without a major drawback, even if you aren't going for inquisition.
That is not the intention of the suggestion, so I am offering a way to fix that.
However! If the afflictions are removed from the first and weakened
dramatically on the second, you're still not making it all that much more
'laughable'-- you've now spent 3 power to give them some afflictions and have
them in a perfect setup range for inquisition -or- wait to see if they blow
their mana on focus spirit. If they do, or if you whiff the inquisition, it's a
loss of a whole 3p. Which... means you can easily just set up to do it again.
And again. And again. And again. Until you get it through. This suggestion
makes landing it if they don't run very simple and cost nearly nothing if they
don't, so I don't think the afflictions need to stay.
---[Ceren on 8/21 @ 09:17 writes]:
The focus spirit bug fix has definitely changed the dynamic of inqui, and I
don't think this change does anything to make it once again usable for Paladins,
though you admit that they never use it anyway. If we go with this, my advice
would be to make heretic 2p and infidel 1p (we all know which one is more
valuable), and also add in cure lines for both, as it will then be left to the
manakill pressure to sufficiently complicate curing heretic/infidel instead of
the current no-cureline thing.
---[Ilyarin on 8/22 @ 01:21 writes]:
I have adjusted the solution to fit Ceren's suggestions, as on second thoughts
that does seem more appropriate. I still strongly object to Xenthos's reasoning.
For just a moment I'd like to bring up phantoms, which although different I feel
can be used to draw some parallels. It costs 2p and causes 10 bursts of damage
and 10 afflictions, each 9s-12s apart. Heretic costs 3p and causes 5
afflictions, each 3 seconds apart. Looking at Sacraments as a whole, if you took
away the afflictions from heretic and the small damage from infidel, there is
really almost nothing left offensively. Fervor, +10% damage given and received.
Judgement. Quite literally that would be all. I feel no adjustment needs to be
made except lowering the cost.
---[Xenthos on 8/23 @ 17:00 writes]:
Or, you move the afflictions from Heretic to Infidel. I still don't think that
the afflictions need to have a lower cost, however.