Report 1552

Report #1552
Skillset: Skill: Mindfield
 Org: Ninjakari Status: Completed Nov 2016
Furies' Decision:
The requirement to declare on scrying will be removed; mindfield will always
trigger damage but will be incapable of killing the target without a valid
declaration.
Problem: When someone scries you and you have mindfield (via the artifact or
skill), if they haven't declared you then they do not get your room name but
they DO get notification that you are online (they are told that they have to
declare you). You, on the other hand, get no notification at all that they are
scrying you despite them successfully seeing whether you are online or not.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: When the scry is blocked by not-having-declared, the
 recipient should still receive the "you sense the
 piercing/sweeping gaze of X," followed by a note that
 they were not able to perceive your location.
Player Comments:
---[Xenthos on 10/22 @ 18:58 writes]:
Sol 1 supported.
---[Shedrin on 10/22 @ 20:12 writes]:
Sure. Also, does it take eq when it does that?
---[Synkarin on 10/22 @ 20:43 writes]:
Actually I think this whole declaring thing is stupid. Can we change it back to
the way it was? Having to declare someone with the mindfield artifact in order
to scry them makes this skill/artifact a lot more powerful than needed. It also
means that I can go gank someone that scried me because they have now declared
me.
---[Xenthos on 10/22 @ 21:40 writes]:
The initial report had a "just put it back the way it was" which is preferable
to (almost) everyone, I think. They picked the declare solution. If they are
going to keep the declare solution then this is my preference. I still don't
see what the problem was with not having to declare at all and just having the
mindfield always work. It's not like anybody ever actually died to that.
---[Raeri on 10/23 @ 01:24 writes]:
Supported
---[Enyalida on 10/23 @ 18:48 writes]:
I don't support this. You aren't notified when someone fails a scry on your for
other reasons. I agree with Synkarin, just go with another solution on the
original report, one that won't spawn subsequent reports on the exact same
issues.
---[Xenthos on 10/23 @ 19:57 writes]:
They didn't fail the scry, though-- they get the exact same information as from
Clairsentience (person is on). I mean, now you can clairsentience to see who is
around without even telling them that you did so if you don't declare.
---[Lerad on 10/24 @ 08:57 writes]:
As the Envoy who created the previous report that resulted in the current state
of things, I'd like to just say that clairsentience being treated as a special
case anot being entirely immune to mindfield etc is fine by me. There are only a
handful of people who have clairsentience, and the people it targets cannot be
changed. This has two implications, actually - one, that the person using
clairsentience can't just say, "I'll take that person off my list so I don't get
whacked by mindfield." and two, it also means that it has a more limited use
than normal farscout since the caster cannot specify who they want to scry. By
making Clairsentience immune and excepted from mindfield, it means that all
clairsentience hits will ping aethersight, thereby resolving the problem
statement. For farscout - if the farscouter has been blocked from finding out
the location of their target, then that's fine if the target doesn't know
they've been scried - because they haven't been scried. If the farscouter wants
to actually scry the mindfielder while the mindfielder (or the scrier) is
protected by Avenger, then they have to jolly well have to declare to do so, and
eat the mindfield backlash for doing so as well.
---[Lerad on 10/24 @ 08:58 writes]:
To clarify a typo in the previous comment: Clairsentience being a special case
and being immune to mindfield is fine with me. In fact, that's my explicit
suggestion for a compromise / solution 2.
---[Falmiis on 10/27 @ 22:40 writes]:
I'm with Shuyin on this. Prefer to just undo the mindfield declare change. I'm
against this report, which only aims to give mindfield and the artifact even
more power.
---[Xenthos on 10/27 @ 23:06 writes]:
I think you're reading a different report, because it's not like it's a huge
buff to anything. Either do solution 1, or just put it back to the initial
state pre-ninja-change (which is what Sojiro was asking for, not "undoing the
declare change"). If declare is the preferred solution, then the artifact
should not disable aethersight, because that is silly.
---[Xenthos on 10/27 @ 23:09 writes]:
Unless you mean the *entire* declare change, I suppose, which would make it
always work once more-- if so, then I do agree. That is definitely my preferred
solution. I'm simply stating that if they are dead set on keeping declare in
this, scrying someone should trigger aethersight (even if "blocked," because it
is not 100% blocked).
---[Falmiis on 10/27 @ 23:51 writes]:
And I'm saying that if the declare thing is here to stay, then I'm against
buffing mindfield even more. I'm of the opinion that if someone can't actually
see your location then you shouldn't be told about it.
---[Xenthos on 10/28 @ 00:10 writes]:
So you're saying that you shouldn't see when I clairsentience you, because I
don't get your location. Well, I completely disagree. Seeing that you're
online is useful enough information.
---[Lerad on 10/28 @ 03:04 writes]:
I will put out my position in #1482 here again. I don't actually care what
happens to the artifact or any other ability beyond the fact that it is
unacceptable for the psymet mindfield ability to be working at anything less
than what it used to do. Which is to give a backlash to all scries, under all
conditions, unless the scryer is in the mindfielder's ally list. If this
backlash must be kept inside Avenger mechanics, THEN THE ONUS OF DECLARATION
CANNOT BE ON THE MINDFIELDER. The scrier has to declare, if we want declare
mechanics to be in the picture at all. Nothing else is acceptable. I don't care
if this constitutes an effective "buff" to the ability - that the mindfielder
does not have to declare to gain the advantage of his ability is the minimum
requirement for any compromise or change, especially considering that the
artifact was implemented without asking for feedback (which is fine - it's the
admin's choice, and right to do so) and the nerf that resulted in report #1482
was put in silently (which is definitely not fine, and not acceptable). As I
said above, however, an exception for clairsentience, that it be exempt from
interacting with mindfield entirely, is a compromise I am willing to take. But
not for any and all other scries.
---[Enyalida on 10/30 @ 14:09 writes]:
Just go back and allow mindfield backlash all the time with no regard to avenger
mechanics with the caveat that it can't ever bring a target below 1hp if that's
somehow a concern. It still puts you potentially in danger if you spam farscries
at stupid times, but that was pratically the only time that it would be an issue
before.
---[Enyalida on 10/30 @ 14:12 writes]:
At any rate, this report is pointless. As Xenthos (who inexplicably supports
this report) pointed out multiple times on envoy, if you just want to see if
someone is online you would go to Ethereal and do your scrying from there, where
none of the avenger changes make a difference. The times you'd want to be
scrying someone and wouldn't necessarily have the option of quickly going to
Ethereal are time when you already know that person is online and therefore
WOULD be failing your scry for the function it was intended, so it doesn't make
sense to give aethersight. You literally aren't sensing the gaze of the scryer,
because they are not gazing on you.
---[Synkarin on 10/30 @ 14:39 writes]:
That doesn't work Enyalida, it checks both targets for avenger actually, so if
you're on prime, I can't scry you from anywhere without declaring you. If I'm on
prime and you are not, I still have to declare to scry.
---[Synkarin on 10/30 @ 14:40 writes]:
Which is dumb, and should be changed. This change buffed the circlet (and the
skill) significantly, where if I get scried on prime by anyone not an ally, I
can now kill them with impunity because they had to declare me to see where I
was.
---[Xenthos on 10/30 @ 23:07 writes]:
Enyalida: My support isn't 'inexplicable'. It's pretty clear. My preference is
for putting this back to the way it was pre-ninja-change (as stated both in
comments here and on Envoys). Failing that, having the artifact *should not*
disable your own aethersight. Period.
---[Wobou on 11/3 @ 13:25 writes]:
Support for Synkarin's hidden solution 2 which at least doesn't check both
parties for avenger. It's silly that you can't at least go to ethereal to scry
without declaring. I'm also for reverting the declaration change all together, I
believe what I suggested before was what Enyalida just suggested which is making
the backlash damage unable to kill. I also agree in general that you shouldn't
be notified if the location was not given. I understand clairsentience is a
special case but as a multi target spell it's a bit different than using a map
or a scry enchantment which is being blocked by this declaration change.
---[Demartel on 11/13 @ 16:21 writes]:
I support removing the declare on scrying.
---[Synkarin on 11/20 @ 20:56 writes]:
Using seek from havens also requires a declaration, which is also dumb. Can we
please change this