123235-the-big-bad-burnout

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people are burning out. a lot only log in for raids and not feeling the rest of the game.
 
that is weird...why does Wildstar is having difficulty to keep its players engaged outside of very specific things that will eventually burn them out ?
 
is it because of the ultra linear power creep ? (why would i run dungeons, the gear they drop is crap)
is it because it isn't alt friendly ? (i don't want to grind that attunement again!)
is it because there is not enough engaging or fun "world" activities ? (farming world boss, events etc)
is it because there is not enough good reward outside of the "better gear" that you can get while raiding ? (everything else feels irrelevant but the gear)
 
imo there is an issue at the moment in which Wildstar is having a problem in keeping people playing outside of its very linear raid progression (which can cause burnouts).
obviously, there are players that enjoy RP or PvP or Housing but i think they are not a majority.
 
solutions?
-add a rally mechanic so that players are adjusted to lower zones level and add farmable content to these zones (or tweak already there content; like world bosses).
-the game needs to add rewards that is outside of "stats". It can be flashy cosmetic, it can be lore unlocks, it can be bank space... something.
-the game needs to involve its players in housing and pvp. these are (should be) huge parts of the game. how can they make housing rewarding? or maybe... make housing more of a guild thing. like instead of having each your separate houses you could place your plot beside your friends/guildmates and create a "mini city" this way. allowing less housing inclined played to maybe be convinced that housing is cool by seeing their friends plots more often.
 
i feel a lot of things ARE in the game, but for whatever reason the wheel doesn't turn properly and players go down the focal way and eventually burn out, more so than in other mmos.
 
discuss.	
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			will always happen regardless of content if you play for more than 3 hours a day.	
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will always happen regardless of content if you play for more than 3 hours a day.
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Variety is the spice of life.  I try to keep my guild engaged by running all kinds of different content.  It keeps things fresh when you might be running normal adventures with new players one day, RPing on your plot the next day, running dailies and vet shiphands another, etc.
 
I think the problem is that burnout gets made a lot of, but it's not any more prevalent in this game than any other.  There's an awful lot to do in this game.  Hell, last night, we organized and ran a Hellrose Bowl, something that one of my guildies called "mythic" because it never happens.  We did it with no organization or prep work before starting the equipment phase.  We just threw it together, spammed channels to let people know what was going on.  By the time it kicked off, we had over thirty people in Malgrave ready to run this outdated open world content.
 
Obviously people want to run it.
 
I think the biggest problem, if there is one (and I'm not sure how much you can socially engineer people to get out of their comfort zones and do things for fun rather than what they know) is that the game's community can sometimes lack leaders.  I know that the Blazing Saddles didn't really start taking off until I stopped being a follower and started trying to take command.  That was a nervous experience at first.  I've never had to be the guy that knew the fights, said what we'd do, got people out to the middle of nowhere to do things they'd never done before.  However, it's made the game a LOT more fun.  I'm never bored in the game because I can throw a group together when I want or do things on my own when I feel like it.
 
Honestly, all Carbine can do is what they're doing; provide new and quality content and experiences for us to involve ourselves in.  That's the entire reason we pay a subscription; because Carbine will constantly be making more game for us to play.  Their current course is exactly what they need to do.  Fix the PVP scene as best as they can while giving a nod to the PVE players, and continue forward trying to add and improve.  What we can do as players is to log in and help out new players and our guilds.  You'd be amazed how little you'd burn out, and how much more of your guild logs on daily rather than just for raids, if they know things will be going on.  Siege of the Lightspire doesn't have to be done for anything.  Sometimes, you just ought to do something because it's fun.
 
Raiders need their bouts of casual content, too.	
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Incoming personal opinion: I'm never bored in Wildstar at all to be blunt about it, there is almost too much to do.
 
Everyday when I log on my guild is ready to do 'stuff', VSHs, Adventures, WB's, Dailies or help other people with whatever it is they need.
 
Sometimes I wonder when am I going to work on my plot? Work on my crafting? Work on my achievements? Sheesh...when am I going to go explore Celestion and get that rep up??
 
I other words, I don't log in and be bored. Ever.
 
But that's me  :)
 
Edit: Because I'm never bored, I don't feel 'burnt out'.	
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Variety is the spice of life.  I try to keep my guild engaged by running all kinds of different content.  It keeps things fresh when you might be running normal adventures with new players one day, RPing on your plot the next day, running dailies and vet shiphands another, etc.
 
I think the problem is that burnout gets made a lot of, but it's not any more prevalent in this game than any other.  There's an awful lot to do in this game.  Hell, last night, we organized and ran a Hellrose Bowl, something that one of my guildies called "mythic" because it never happens.  We did it with no organization or prep work before starting the equipment phase.  We just threw it together, spammed channels to let people know what was going on.  By the time it kicked off, we had over thirty people in Malgrave ready to run this outdated open world content.
 
Obviously people want to run it.
 
I think the biggest problem, if there is one (and I'm not sure how much you can socially engineer people to get out of their comfort zones and do things for fun rather than what they know) is that the game's community can sometimes lack leaders.  I know that the Blazing Saddles didn't really start taking off until I stopped being a follower and started trying to take command.  That was a nervous experience at first.  I've never had to be the guy that knew the fights, said what we'd do, got people out to the middle of nowhere to do things they'd never done before.  However, it's made the game a LOT more fun.  I'm never bored in the game because I can throw a group together when I want or do things on my own when I feel like it.
 
Honestly, all Carbine can do is what they're doing; provide new and quality content and experiences for us to involve ourselves in.  That's the entire reason we pay a subscription; because Carbine will constantly be making more game for us to play.  Their current course is exactly what they need to do.  Fix the PVP scene as best as they can while giving a nod to the PVE players, and continue forward trying to add and improve.  What we can do as players is to log in and help out new players and our guilds.  You'd be amazed how little you'd burn out, and how much more of your guild logs on daily rather than just for raids, if they know things will be going on.  Siege of the Lightspire doesn't have to be done for anything.  Sometimes, you just ought to do something because it's fun.
 
Raiders need their bouts of casual content, too.
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Incoming personal opinion: I'm never bored in Wildstar at all to be blunt about it, there is almost too much to do.
 
Everyday when I log on my guild is ready to do 'stuff', VSHs, Adventures, WB's, Dailies or help other people with whatever it is they need.
 
Sometimes I wonder when am I going to work on my plot? Work on my crafting? Work on my achievements? Sheesh...when am I going to go explore Celestion and get that rep up??
 
I other words, I don't log in and be bored. Ever.
 
But that's me  :)
 
Edit: Because I'm never bored, I don't feel 'burnt out'.
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is it because there is not enough good reward outside of the "better gear" that you can get while raiding ? (everything else feels irrelevant but the gear)...
 
 
...-the game needs to add rewards that is outside of "stats". It can be flashy cosmetic, it can be lore unlocks, it can be bank space... something.
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all makes sense.
but in a game that is (for some) focused on linear gear progression, running something like "hellbowl rose" is a total waste of time.
a lot of content is currently in the same situation.
there is maybe "not enough" endgame content that REWARDS something interesting for players that are decked out in GA/DS gear.
 
yes, variety is the spice of life. but right now i am slightly concerned that this variety is not being tasted much. for: lack of reward (mostly).
 
maybe a decent start would be as i mentioned in my original post: create a rally mechanic so that you get downleveled to the zone you go in. then adjust/tweak/perfect the world bosses and give them meaningful rewards. glow essences, fancy lore unlock, *cupcake* items that would "talk" once in a while (i.e.: when you salvage items, or another one when you crit, or another one when you rez people or whatever).
maybe for 5k glory you can buy an item that you would then have to imbue by killing world bosses and that item would slowly lose its imbuement so that you need to kill more world boss to keep it "active" ?
 
just rambling...
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I don't get it. You say everything but the gear is irrelevant, but go on to say you need more irrelevance. Flashy cosmetics, lore unlocks, bank space, etc... are all things that you can already do outside of raiding, so I'm quite confused as to what you're asking here. More costumes? Sure, I can get behind that. More mounts? I'm down. I dig listening to datacubes; more of those would be cool.
 
Again, al of this already exists outside if raiding. If the narrow-minded people who think the gear is the only thing that matters take just a moment to look beyond the gear to see that there' an actual game here, they might experience far less burnout... or maybe they'll just move on to the next game, get geared, then complain that there's nothing to do in that game either.
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I don't get it. You say everything but the gear is irrelevant, but go on to say you need more irrelevance. Flashy cosmetics, lore unlocks, bank space, etc... are all things that you can already do outside of raiding, so I'm quite confused as to what you're asking here. More costumes? Sure, I can get behind that. More mounts? I'm down. I dig listening to datacubes; more of those would be cool.
 
Again, al of this already exists outside if raiding. If the narrow-minded people who think the gear is the only thing that matters take just a moment to look beyond the gear to see that there' an actual game here, they might experience far less burnout... or maybe they'll just move on to the next game, get geared, then complain that there's nothing to do in that game either.
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Well, you pointed out the problem in your own post.  If you're entirely focused solely on linear progression, nothing they can do would actually make the problem better except for tacking on more progression.  In that case, people aren't "burning out", they just don't care about the rest of the game.
 
And maybe there are things Carbine can do about that, but the only way they can make previous content more relevant is to essentially make something like world bosses come after Datascape.  There really isn't anything else to help in that regard.
 
Then again, people who care solely about linear progression probably aren't a majority of this game's population.  I think that's why the population has exploded post-Drop 4 even though they added nothing onto raiding (in fact only making the lone 40 man raid a 20 man raid).  What they really needed was mortar between the content bricks for everyone else, and giving them that has not only made the more casual players happy, but made more of them into raiders.
 
It was the answer to people wanting easier adventures and dungeons without nerfing the content.  Vet Shiphands fill the gap with a half step for those too nervous to step in on their own.
 
In all honesty, people who are exclusively hardcore raiders, and do nothing else, there's nothing to be done for them.  Either they broaden to have more fun elsewhere, or they continue on.  There are only two guilds who've downed Avatus; they're the only ones at the end.  Also, if you're a hardcore raider and you only log in for raids, you can't complain about the roster boss.  You aren't helping your guild get new members and alts attuned and geared, you aren't helping out with crafting, and you aren't running events to help recruit.
 
And that may be how some players are, but if that's actually what they want to do, they wouldn't burn out.
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And maybe the 'best of the best' raiders forget that this is a game and is supposed to be fun, not just a single minded progression to end game.
 
Don't get me wrong here....if that's your thing more power to you but there is a lot more than raiding in Wildstar.
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people are burning out. a lot only log in for raids and not feeling the rest of the game.
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the game is doing a bad job at enticing that exact feeling.
that is the purpose of my post.
 
thats why a rallying mechanic and some kind of "rewards" for unlocking more achievement or lore or whatever throughout the world would probably help a lot.
as it is now; if you are decked out in DS gear. you don't get the point in face rolling hell rose bowl and destroying an adventure 2 shooting mobs.
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population is not exploded at all.... the forums are dead. in game queues are still "so-so" at best.
a few more players maybe. but really, it is still awfully low.
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			I feel that this is going to happen to me soon. I have 9 level 50s and 1 level 45. I've only got 3 more character slots on my main server that I can level up. Not quite sure what to do after that. I guess I'll have to start rolling deletions.	
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population is not exploded at all.... the forums are dead. in game queues are still "so-so" at best.
a few more players maybe. but really, it is still awfully low.
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			Honestly, I would rather log in just to raid for the week as it is the only thing I find interesting in the game.  My sense of burnout is coming from the fact that there has been non-stop progression raiding since the game launched.  Only 3 guilds are now done with progression, and there really isn't an end in sight for the majority of guilds.  Certainly some like that there is always something out there to kill, for me I like a break.   I also don't like how time consuming the upgrade and maintenence is for raiding (I have never liked it but at least in WoW I got over that hump of sustainability and raids could actually make money with BoEs and raid mats).  But maybe MMORPGs are no longer for me.	
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Honestly, I would rather log in just to raid for the week as it is the only thing I find interesting in the game.  My sense of burnout is coming from the fact that there has been non-stop progression raiding since the game launched.  Only 3 guilds are now done with progression, and there really isn't an end in sight for the majority of guilds.  Certainly some like that there is always something out there to kill, for me I like a break.   I also don't like how time consuming the upgrade and maintenence is for raiding (I have never liked it but at least in WoW I got over that hump of sustainability and raids could actually make money with BoEs and raid mats).  But maybe MMORPGs are no longer for me.
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I would play this game more if they would hurry up and fix pvp and stop nerfing every little grind content they have in the game.
WildStar's antigrind attitude is really starting to *cupcake* me of.	
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Adding rewards is not going to make a group of the population that cares little about anything but one segment of the content.  Raiders who only care about raiding will absolutely get burnt out, or they will complete the content and move on.  They are content locusts.  Consume it fast, move on to the next thing.  You cannot make them play a portion of the game they do not want to play.  You are unlikely to be able to entice them to do something else for very long.
 
You could put the sweetest sugar at the end of the longest, most grindiest process ever, and someone would still complete that and move along without solving anything, essentially because there's nothing to solve.
 
The answer to the conundrum is to realize that no game needs to be everything to all people.  It needs to find its own identity core and build upon that.  The other trick is to leverage that identity onto a variety of activities.  It doesn't need to be all activities, but having a spectrum is definitely beneficial.  Even if you do this you will STILL get people who burn out their one chosen activity and leave.  You cannot avoid that.  What you'd really like though is to get people to bond to that core identity.  Warcraft is rather amazing at this and is one of their core successes.  Through clever brand building, they got people to bond to the story, the lore, and the gameplay.  They didn't get to be the behemoth because of their amazing raids.  They evoked that emotional reaction that every salesperson salivates to obtain because that's the closer.
 
In that same vein that no game needs to be everything to all people, I think that's where the worm has started to turn on WoW.  They HAVE pursued this over the course of the past 10 years, and I think it's to their detriment.  The base gameplay is as good as it ever was, a rich lore world, basic mechanics of class play that feel generally fluid.  However there's an awful lot of homogenization, there's a lot of blandness about it as well.  Of course some of that is just the fact of those 10 years.  It's absolutely a challenge to keep it fresh.  
 
However WoW's challenge is not Wildstar's challenge.  Wildstar is still in that infant stage of identity formation.  Maybe it was a premature birth as some have speculated, induced by NCSoft.  Regardless, it is what it is.  My own personal take on it is that it has a really great shot of making a solid foundational identity core and building on it.  The lore has plenty of room to grow and evolve.  The mechanics started pretty good and innovative (to me at least) and have (with hiccups) continued to improve.  The environment in which to pursue the mechanics continues to improve.  They smooth some roadblocks and keep paving the way to the future.
 
It's absolutely not about reward mechanics.  Reward mechanics are strictly short term benefits.  The long game is variety built off of core identity.	
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the game is doing a bad job at enticing that exact feeling.
that is the purpose of my post.
 
thats why a rallying mechanic and some kind of "rewards" for unlocking more achievement or lore or whatever throughout the world would probably help a lot.
as it is now; if you are decked out in DS gear. you don't get the point in face rolling hell rose bowl and destroying an adventure 2 shooting mobs.
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I would play this game more if they would hurry up and fix pvp and stop nerfing every little grind content they have in the game.
WildStar's antigrind attitude is really starting to *cupcake* me of.
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Well, the community was/is very anti-grind.  It definitely wasn't Carbine's stock stance.
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When people choose to ignore 75% or more of the available content, there's not much else the game developers can do to entice them. The content is there, but you can't just throw gear at it and hope the exclusively-raiders decide that it's worth doing. It will disturb the balance of the game to just say "Well, raiders aren't participating in dungeons, lets put better gear in there to get them in there!" because then you affect raiding. All they can do is provide alot of options and hope people do them. No one can force anyone to do something they simply aren't interested in.
 
Not sure why you think burnout would be less if these people who just log in to raid felt like they had to also log in to do a myriad of other things. Some people just want to raid. That's fine.	
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More like the whole western market and the antikorean attitude.
WildStar is reminding me of why I really disliked western MMOs, and that attitude has only gotten worse.
A directly identafiable "carrot" to play for, with a reward that's within a few steps due process to be what you're looking for, is a pretty great thing.
Grind content is fantastic for a player base that's looking for something to do, just when used in moderation.
 
But Carbine has gone and nerfed the hell out of everything that they've made grind content worthy.
 
I miss the Stormtalon module farming, that was fantastic.
Nope cant have that!
And it seems like they nerfed the drop rate of elemental signs too, farming for them is unbearable.
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So just out of curiosity, how many people are we supposing have reached the pinnacle of success at raiding, don't enjoy anything else unless it has big rewards associated with it, and needs to be enticed into every other component of the game because none of them are fun enough to do just for the sake of doing them unless you're getting something extra-special?
 
Are we imagining that they're never ever going to roll alts? Because in most MMORPGs, the way to avoid burnout is to just go ahead and try out another character with a different class and new features/powers/roles to learn.	
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			Why do games need to provide 24-7 enjoyment to be considered successful?  It's ok to set a game down for a few days.  It will not kill you, I promise.	
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Why do games need to provide 24-7 enjoyment to be considered successful?  It's ok to set a game down for a few days.  It will not kill you, I promise.
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To be honest, though I don't necessarily have an opinion on the subject, I think you're a minority opinion there.  I understand that; I think random group finders are an abomination before God and man, but I have to understand that people like those being in the game and I have to sort of swallow my hate for it.  I'm the understandable and vast minority opinion there, I just assume that's not made for me.
 
People aren't reaching the end of DS that quickly, though, so obviously there's a lot of content time in that if you're feeling like everything's coming too easy.
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So just out of curiosity, how many people are we supposing have reached the pinnacle of success at raiding, don't enjoy anything else unless it has big rewards associated with it, and needs to be enticed into every other component of the game because none of them are fun enough to do just for the sake of doing them unless you're getting something extra-special?
 
Are we imagining that they're never ever going to roll alts? Because in most MMORPGs, the way to avoid burnout is to just go ahead and try out another character with a different class and new features/powers/roles to learn.
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and after you are done with progression ? what will you do ?
 
and until you are done with progression, nothing else is interesting: why ?
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And, let's face it, a portion of this may be rooted in the state of PVP.  If Drop 5 does for PVP what Drop 4 did for PVE, this conversation becomes even less relevant.  PVP itself tends to not be subject to the same kind of burnout because of the self-regulating nature of the difficulty curve, and I'm sure that the people who generally do like to mix PVP and PVE might actually be raiding and hoping PVP gets fixed.  I think Abn is in that camp.
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Besides not enough guilds here raid enough.
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Why do games need to provide 24-7 enjoyment to be considered successful?  It's ok to set a game down for a few days.  It will not kill you, I promise.
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I highly disagree with that.
There are some people who won't go with alts because it increase their feeling of being burned out, some people don't find any reward in replaying content and blowing time on something that they could be doing more with their main character.
 
Alting shouldn't be a primary way of making your game have replay value, and consistent content.
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"you're the minority, so you don't really count" That's kinda what I got out of it.
 
Yeah just like how I was against 40 player raids, even though everyone was like "40 player raids SO AWESOME WE WANT THAT"
And look at what they had to do to datascape.
 
I also said "Carbine should introduce some smaller scale maybe 3 player max instanced content" and people told me how dumb that would be. Yet that's exactly what we got last drop and a ton of people are enjoying the hell out of it.
 
 
Raids are fun, but grind content caters to everyone, and is a nice way to artificially extend the life of a game. Especially if you make it a viable part of supplying your player base with the mats they need to pursue bigger fish.
Besides not enough guilds here raid enough.
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hes not alone.
pvp needs a boost. update to its QoL, fun stuff, fair stuff, goodies etc. it needs it.
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I don't know how many people are burning out, really. I'm still having a blast doing all sorts of stuff.
 
That being said, having run a few dungeons with DS geared people before (I am not- I'm at like 3100ish AP), I think there is definitely an issue where the rest of the game becomes no longer fun once you get a certain level of gear. In a normal group, I'm usually at the top of the DPS meters and runs are brisk and fun. When I'm in a DS geared group (except for myself), then I'm far at the bottom and the mobs just melt. One group I ran with said they had each individually queued so as not to be together, but the system put them together anyway.
 
To give some perspective on what it's like- you know that "Kill the Pell in x amount of time" challenge in STL? The one that used to be a bit challenging when we all first started and means that most people clear it before going back for the first optional boss? Yeah- I asked why we weren't killing all the Pell in that group and they said "We'll just get em after Aethros". Because Aethros went down that quick.
 
So the problem here is, if I was a DS raider who wasn't into alts, I'd have nothing to do in the game BUT raid. And that would be a darn shame, because there's a lot of fun stuff to do in WS. But it sure wouldn't be fun if everything just dies when you sneeze at it. Yeah, I guess you could start taking off gear, but I just really don't think people are going to do that. Especially if there's no reward.
 
One thing I think would be cool (but probably not worth the development resources) is to create stat capped version of all the dungeons. The dungeons would be exactly the same, but AP coming from gear would be limited to 2500 (and similar caps on SP/Armor/etc). Then you just have to come up with a suitable reward for these that makes them worth grinding for DS type folks. Maybe something directly tied to maintenance for raids? I don't know. I wouldn't want these dungeons to be the default, but something for really geared people to do.
 
As much as I like doing the dungeons, there's a part of me that years for the time back when gear was limited and it took more skill and coordination just to get bronze.	
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Because when it comes to MMORPGs, these games aren't simple games for us to pick up and set down. MMOs have always been and are contiued to be designed as and expected to be, aspects of our daily lives.
 
Especially if it's a subscriber game that makes you pay monthly.
 
I remember those days when an MMORPG could literally consume me, 10~12 hours a day, everyday, for months on end, and there was still stuff to be done.
Now everything's so short, consumed so easily and people come and go like it's a 2nd job.
 
Sure throw me inline for the nostalgia goggles but I miss that.
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The issue is that grinds actually don't appeal to people universally.
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Appeal=/=viable, relatable, nor what players will actually play or find reasonable.
What players want doesn't always equal what players need, or will actually play and appreciate.
Just because it's appealing doesn't mean it's good or worth doing.
 
Actions speak louder than words.
 
40 player raids sure did sound appealing, but in practice they're not a viable avenue of content.
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I think it would have been more viable if they didn't do a 20 man before hand.  And just put the line in the sand and said "If you want to raid in Wildstar, you need 40 people".
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No because the failure of 40 player raids is population.
 
It's not sustainable or viable in the market today to attempt to require a massive amount of players to coordinate to such a time frame, on such a large scale.
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Appeal=/=viable, relatable, nor what players will actually play or find reasonable.
What players want doesn't always equal what players need, or will actually play and appreciate.
Just because it's appealing doesn't mean it's good or worth doing.
 
Actions speak louder than words.
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I don't know how many people are burning out, really. I'm still having a blast doing all sorts of stuff.
 
That being said, having run a few dungeons with DS geared people before (I am not- I'm at like 3100ish AP), I think there is definitely an issue where the rest of the game becomes no longer fun once you get a certain level of gear. In a normal group, I'm usually at the top of the DPS meters and runs are brisk and fun. When I'm in a DS geared group (except for myself), then I'm far at the bottom and the mobs just melt. One group I ran with said they had each individually queued so as not to be together, but the system put them together anyway.
 
To give some perspective on what it's like- you know that "Kill the Pell in x amount of time" challenge in STL? The one that used to be a bit challenging when we all first started and means that most people clear it before going back for the first optional boss? Yeah- I asked why we weren't killing all the Pell in that group and they said "We'll just get em after Aethros". Because Aethros went down that quick.
 
So the problem here is, if I was a DS raider who wasn't into alts, I'd have nothing to do in the game BUT raid. And that would be a darn shame, because there's a lot of fun stuff to do in WS. But it sure wouldn't be fun if everything just dies when you sneeze at it. Yeah, I guess you could start taking off gear, but I just really don't think people are going to do that. Especially if there's no reward.
 
One thing I think would be cool (but probably not worth the development resources) is to create stat capped version of all the dungeons. The dungeons would be exactly the same, but AP coming from gear would be limited to 2500 (and similar caps on SP/Armor/etc). Then you just have to come up with a suitable reward for these that makes them worth grinding for DS type folks. Maybe something directly tied to maintenance for raids? I don't know. I wouldn't want these dungeons to be the default, but something for really geared people to do.
 
As much as I like doing the dungeons, there's a part of me that years for the time back when gear was limited and it took more skill and coordination just to get bronze.
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However, we did have a grind players could play and appreciate.  The gear grind for dungeons to ramp up to raiding earned Wildstar the name "Grindstar", and people definitely left because of it.  We've got all the evidence in the world that players don't want a grind on that level.
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{| class="blockquote"
And, let's face it, a portion of this may be rooted in the state of PVP.  If Drop 5 does for PVP what Drop 4 did for PVE, this conversation becomes even less relevant.  PVP itself tends to not be subject to the same kind of burnout because of the self-regulating nature of the difficulty curve, and I'm sure that the people who generally do like to mix PVP and PVE might actually be raiding and hoping PVP gets fixed.  I think Abn is in that camp.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Maybe so, but actually the fixes in PvP actually seem to me to be exhibit A supporting Fran's complaint that they're stepping too far in the other direction in an effort to address the overwhelmingly negative reaction that people had to things like the rep grind.
 
After one day of not particularly aggressive PvPing in the post-PvP normalization world, I have one of the old 1800 rated weapons. That's the most expensive PvP gear piece there is, the rest are substantially cheaper. That seems really fast to me for going from entry-level PvP weapon to best PvP weapon there is.
 
Don't get me wrong--I thought the ratings requirement for gear was an absolute PvP-killer. I'm really glad it's gone. But I had been imagining, perhaps naively, that when they took it out they would increase the prestige cost of the gear somewhat so that it would make sense to work your way up through the different qualities of PvP gear and spread out the climb to the top. Because sure, you might get beat up a bit along the way, but as long as you kept at it and slowly earned up prestiige you could get to the top just by keeping at it. The same was not true when you could PvP all day and end up with exactly the same rating you started with, and that was the problem PvP was having--people outside of the big PvP guilds didn't see that getting to the top was even possible for them to do with the ratings requirement in place.
 
But now that it's gone without increasing the prestige cost of the existing gear at all, it makes no sense at all to get PvP gear below the top quality and work your way up because you'll have earned enough prestige to get at least one piece of the best in a single day. I find myself wondering what it is that people are going to be working towards in PvP a few weeks from now, when everybody who does any PvPing has the best PvP gear they can get and a surplus of prestige but nothing to spend it on.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What gear grind?
Last I remember, it wasn't the gear, it was the fact that the vet dungeon difficulty wasn't expected and people left because of how hard it was to accomplish the steps for attunement.
 
I've been here since headstart, I don't remember any gear grind.
 
40 player raids
YEARS AND YEARS ago, back when the market was VERY different.
 
40 player raids never made it into Burning crusade, 20 player raids and 25 player raids that scaled from 10 players came after and since Buring crusade.
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{| class="blockquote"
But now that it's gone without increasing the prestige cost of the existing gear at all, it makes no sense at all to get PvP gear below the top quality and work your way up because you'll have earned enough prestige to get at least one piece of the best in a single day. I find myself wondering what it is that people are going to be working towards in PvP a few weeks from now, when everybody who does any PvPing has the best PvP gear they can get and a surplus of prestige but nothing to spend it on.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Maybe so, but actually the fixes in PvP actually seem to me to be exhibit A supporting Fran's complaint that they're stepping too far in the other direction in an effort to address the overwhelmingly negative reaction that people had to things like the rep grind.
 
After one day of not particularly aggressive PvPing in the post-PvP normalization world, I have one of the old 1800 rated weapons. That's the most expensive PvP gear piece there is, the rest are substantially cheaper. That seems really fast to me for going from entry-level PvP weapon to best PvP weapon there is.
 
Don't get me wrong--I thought the ratings requirement for gear was an absolute PvP-killer. I'm really glad it's gone. But I had been imagining, perhaps naively, that when they took it out they would increase the prestige cost of the gear somewhat so that it would make sense to work your way up through the different qualities of PvP gear and spread out the climb to the top. Because sure, you might get beat up a bit along the way, but as long as you kept at it and slowly earned up prestiige you could get to the top just by keeping at it. The same was not true when you could PvP all day and end up with exactly the same rating you started with, and that was the problem PvP was having--people outside of the big PvP guilds didn't see that getting to the top was even possible for them to do with the ratings requirement in place.
 
But now that it's gone without increasing the prestige cost of the existing gear at all, it makes no sense at all to get PvP gear below the top quality and work your way up because you'll have earned enough prestige to get at least one piece of the best in a single day. I find myself wondering what it is that people are going to be working towards in PvP a few weeks from now, when everybody who does any PvPing has the best PvP gear they can get and a surplus of prestige but nothing to spend it on.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
nailed it.
 
the game NEEDS a mechanic to lower the power of over geared people in lower level content. maybe not nerf them "that bad", but... adjust.
 
otherwise the power creep is creating burnouts.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm feeling you then- I think people might be misunderstanding what you mean by "burnout". The problem is that there really isn't much in terms of fun things to do for someone with a great deal of gear. And remember, that's the reason we all play the game. So many non-raiders give raiders a hard time saying that they should just "play for fun", but that's like telling a player he should go farm the starter zones where you can use one attack to kill everything and say "don't complain- you should just be playing for fun!"
 
The game is at a great place for me and my power level. I can do pretty much any dungeon and have an easy time of it. My gear is good enough that I can carry a few undergeared people, but I can't survive without them. I can still do vet shiphands, and while they are easy, I do have to actually pay attention to what I'm doing. I can raid on weekends and do whatever other PvE content my heart desires, and honestly there's stuff I don't even mess with because my time is so occupied with stuff to do.
 
But none of that stuff would be reasonably available to me if I was in better gear. It would just be log-raiding, and that would probably cause me to become tired of the game too.
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{| class="blockquote"
And, let's face it, a portion of this may be rooted in the state of PVP.  If Drop 5 does for PVP what Drop 4 did for PVE, this conversation becomes even less relevant.  PVP itself tends to not be subject to the same kind of burnout because of the self-regulating nature of the difficulty curve, and I'm sure that the people who generally do like to mix PVP and PVE might actually be raiding and hoping PVP gets fixed.  I think Abn is in that camp.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it was definitely the gear grind.  In fact, they were a VERY constant complaint.  The idea that you needed a perfect roll on stats for the item and also perfect rolls on the rune slots.  People were going weeks without an upgrade and complained vehemently about it.  That's why it was addressed in this latest patch (and in the runeslot's case, even earlier).  You may not have remembered the gear grind personally, but you have stated you like grinds.  General Discussion was full of bile for it, and you can see it still in some people's signatures how much "RNG" was needed for gear.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not grind, that's just playing with RNG.
 
Playing vs RNG is not viable grind content.
Grind content is designed to be playing for a clear cut reward aka "Carrot" that you can acheive with a readily reliable amount of repetitive effort, RNG is the antithesis of this.
 
Now I do remember what you're talking about, but that's not grind content, that's called an RNG timesink.
 
Grind content, good and well executed skinnerbox method grind content, is a defined reward that repeats itself with an ever increasing means to the gain, or a reliable repetative expectation.
EG Repeatable Quests, and quest chains, or going out to an area and repeatedly killing mobs for an expected consistant reward such as running Stormtalon clears for Modules, or farming flamedancer enclave for Eldan Fusions.
 
RNG Timesinks roll dice, make you sink a tone of time into it, and give you no direct reward that you can play for.
----
			Actually, thinking about it for a bit, the easiest and simplest answer is just to provide rewards for doing content with missing gearslots. Acquire more gold/eg/renown/glory/whatever for doing tasks with pieces of gear unequipped. The more you unequip, the faster it goes. And maybe have achievements for completing shiphands naked except for a weapon and stuff like that.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it was definitely the gear grind.  In fact, they were a VERY constant complaint.  The idea that you needed a perfect roll on stats for the item and also perfect rolls on the rune slots.  People were going weeks without an upgrade and complained vehemently about it.  That's why it was addressed in this latest patch (and in the runeslot's case, even earlier).  You may not have remembered the gear grind personally, but you have stated you like grinds.  General Discussion was full of bile for it, and you can see it still in some people's signatures how much "RNG" was needed for gear.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What gear grind?
Last I remember, it wasn't the gear, it was the fact that the vet dungeon difficulty wasn't expected and people left because of how hard it was to accomplish the steps for attunement.
 
I've been here since headstart, I don't remember any gear grind.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Honestly, though, I think while you make that distinction, few would.  RNG goes the other way, it can be a lot shorter than you'd expect.  People were directly complaining about the length of time they spent grinding dungeons for gear, and that was the "grind" they were talking about.  I don't think keeping the exact same timeframe, but forcing people to slowly generate currency would change the rhetoric.
 
It's simply the great balancing act Carbine has to play.  They have to introduce time sinks, but not enough to make people notice.  The problem with adding a slow-generated token system is going to be taken the way the rep grind and AMP/Ability grind has played out.  People tend to resent them in this game.
 
Personally, I don't care one way or the other.  I do content solely because I like doing the content.  However, I'm well aware of how much time most players are willing to tolerate putting into moving forward.
 
I mean, leveling can be done exceptionally quickly, and yet there are players out there still complaining about the leveling "grind".  I don't think an Asian MMORPG-length grind would go over well with the playerbase, especially if it's on the main highway to where they want to go.  Maybe in an ancillary capacity, but even then, some people don't see that kind of content as "optional".
----
			Honestly, I think for some people heavy RNG=Grind and for other people it isn't. I pretty much equate the two in my mind (just because I can't see reliable progress measured, I know that it's just a matter of repeating the content and eventually my thing will come), but I understand how many don't.	
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{| class="blockquote"
More like the whole western market and the antikorean attitude.
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{| class="blockquote"
Honestly, I think for some people heavy RNG=Grind and for other people it isn't. I pretty much equate the two in my mind (just because I can't see reliable progress measured, I know that it's just a matter of repeating the content and eventually my thing will come), but I understand how many don't.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, thinking about it for a bit, the easiest and simplest answer is just to provide rewards for doing content with missing gearslots. Acquire more gold/eg/renown/glory/whatever for doing tasks with pieces of gear unequipped. The more you unequip, the faster it goes. And maybe have achievements for completing shiphands naked except for a weapon and stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's a false equivency, 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You haven't played grind until you've played Aion.
----
			
I need stuff to do. I capped everything and my medic alt just needs AMP/APs - which I now can easily get from PvP.
 
If I want to do something in WS other than raiding I have to wait until prime time and then do a dungeon or a BG, thats it. I can't even do achivements because I got all of the non bugged achivements (minus a few GA and DS achivements)
 
Logged into FFXIV yesterday and decided I would try and level a ninja, since I havent tried it yet. I queued up at 2 AM on EU and within 15 minutes I got a group ready to go, this a DPS, in a leveling dungeon, in the middle of the night. Would NEVER happen in Wildstar	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think you're conflating two related but unambiguously distinct issues there.
 
RNG is about getting rewarded but with a reward that you may or may not actually want. People will tolerate it until the odds of getting what you want become too low to justify aiming for the reward.
Grind is about how long it takes you to chip away at a task to get to a reward. People will tolerate it until the time it takes to get the reward no longer justify aiming for the reward.
 
RNG and grind together make it so that you have to chip away at a task that you can't actually ever guarantee will pay off with what you want. And that made it an absolutely terrible idea.
 
Complaints about RNG-based rewards are not the same thing as complaints about grinding-based rewards. We don't use the same thought processes to handle those two different forms of assessing effort/reward at all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, thinking about it for a bit, the easiest and simplest answer is just to provide rewards for doing content with missing gearslots. Acquire more gold/eg/renown/glory/whatever for doing tasks with pieces of gear unequipped. The more you unequip, the faster it goes. And maybe have achievements for completing shiphands naked except for a weapon and stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You haven't played grind until you've played Aion.  I for one welcome our anti-grind overlords.
 
Yes, I skipped a lot of the thread just to post this.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll one up you and show you my Lvl 108 Master Psykeeper from FlyFF.
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{| class="blockquote"
I haven't seen any evidence yet that the people Fran is lambasting here in any way do not conflate those issues.  I believe they see them as exactly the same thing because the primary calculation is a measure of time invested versus reward.  The issue wasn't that people weren't grinding dungeons hoping for gear and said, "You know, it's not the time I'm waiting for it, it's the inconsistency."  No, time was very much the object of their displeasure.  Making it so that the gear grind was a literal grind and took the exact same length of time wasn't going to make the situation better.
 
So I'm not sure who isn't using that frame of reference to measure effort versus reward, but I'm fairly confident that most people wouldn't spend their time grinding at some currency at the same rate they were getting gear before and would have then been perfectly happy.  I don't get that impression even from this thread.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The object of their displeasure was that they ran the content successfully, did what they felt they should need to do to get the reward, and what they got was crap that they didn't want. This required them to start over and do it again, and they didn't like that at all.
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{| class="blockquote"
The object of their displeasure was that they ran the content successfully, did what they felt they should need to do to get the reward, and what they got was crap that they didn't want. This required them to start over and do it again, and they didn't like that at all.
 
Does that sound familiar? Because if it does, that's a long and cumbersome way of saying "I didn't like the inconsistency".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I haven't seen any evidence yet that the people Fran is lambasting here in any way do not conflate those issues.  I believe they see them as exactly the same thing because the primary calculation is a measure of time invested versus reward.  The issue wasn't that people weren't grinding dungeons hoping for gear and said, "You know, it's not the time I'm waiting for it, it's the inconsistency."  No, time was very much the object of their displeasure.  Making it so that the gear grind was a literal grind and took the exact same length of time wasn't going to make the situation better.
 
So I'm not sure who isn't using that frame of reference to measure effort versus reward, but I'm fairly confident that most people wouldn't spend their time grinding at some currency at the same rate they were getting gear before and would have then been perfectly happy.  I don't get that impression even from this thread.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whatever it is, in my mind it works out the same for me.
 
This is probably due to playing LOADS of poker and that mindset (specifically, the idea of "expected value").
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can you say "Proc a Hot Heart of Magic" No thanks even to anything similar to that kind of grind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This sounds an awful lot like the time I ran Scholomance in WoW NINETY-SEVEN TIMES before Helm of Valor dropped off of Darkmaster Gandling... and then a *cupcake*ing Prot Pally rolled on it and took it from me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To accept that as reality, we would have to assume that, if it took EXACTLY as long as it did with the RNG, but forced them to slowly grind up a currency instead, they'd be more than happy to do it.  I simply don't find that, in the volume of complaints in Wildstar's past from its community, to be anything even close to the case.  I have never heard someone say, "Look, I don't mind spending two or more months grinding up gear and going weeks without getting an upgrade, but at least take out the RNG that gives me a shot to make it faster."
 
I don't feel there's a compelling case to be made for that.  I think that people would be happier if the RNG stayed but it rained loot on your head so fast that you got what you wanted within a few weeks, if not days.  People aren't worried about the method that gear comes to them, but by how much time it took to get.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Excuse me?
I'm not critizing anyone, Im clarifying a topic issue.
Don't you put words in my mouth.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's fine, I won't.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I'm not sure how calm, measured, and impartial you believe this sounds, but the point where you call the entire western market that was against the timesinks in the game "antikorean" should have been the first sign that you may be coming off a bit vitriolic.  I'd certainly consider it to be lambasting.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have you ever heard the term RNJesus?
 
You are so overdramatically downplaying grind content, you're mildly infuriating me.
You clearly do not understand what grind content is, and you're trying to tell someone whom enjoys and knows what grind content is, what grind content is.
 
Are you serious right now?
 
Did you even watch the video I posted?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Perhaps you should step away from your computer for a short period of time in order to become less infuriated.  It's not a healthy or practical position from which to make a logical argument.
 
Your argument is constructed from the basis that it isn't length of time, but method of gain, that determines how displeased people will be at the time sink.  Thus I took a time sink that was stated to have both, and asked the logical question, would it make the community happier if it took as long, but used no RNG, or if it took less time and did.
 
There isn't a much more direct way to talk about the idea.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Is it your suggestion that a currency grind is not a time sink, then?  A time sink is generally defined as a way in which a game company can make sure a player is spending his time in the game that draws out the content.  RNG and grinding are methods of item distribution, but they are both time sinks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That has nothing to do with me clarifying the grind issue with your confusion of the RNG usage.
 
and I DIDNT SAY TIMESINK.
I said GRIND CONTENT.
 
Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say.
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{| class="blockquote"
people are burning out. a lot only log in for raids and not feeling the rest of the game.
 
that is weird...why does Wildstar is having difficulty to keep its players engaged outside of very specific things that will eventually burn them out ?
 
is it because of the ultra linear power creep ? (why would i run dungeons, the gear they drop is crap)
is it because it isn't alt friendly ? (i don't want to grind that attunement again!)
is it because there is not enough engaging or fun "world" activities ? (farming world boss, events etc)
discuss.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Rather you should 1. stop talking down to me 2. Stop trying to educate me on a subject that clearly I know more about than you do 3. Stop making strawman arguements and putting words in my mouth that I didnt say.
----
			
Fran, you seem to be a bit overzealous now. Just an outsider's opinion though :)
 
Vic, the balance between time gated and rng gated is a tough one to nail... i personally think some rng is needed. maybe not to the extent that the runes were Rng, but aside from that. its cool in my book.
 
but then again, the idea is to make the players "spice up their activity" and always feel like they are "getting something" for doing so.
 
to kind of go back on my original post. wildstar is brutally shooting the players on a linear path to gear and that never looking back is the only way to go.
 
and that... is wrong.
 
for example. maybe each dungeon could be associated with an element ? and have good chance of dropping elder signs of that element ? (not a perfect solution, but just an explanation of my mindset).
this way every content could be "somehow relevant". that is the goal.
after they introce a rallying mechanic throughout the whole game (or at least all instances) so that DS geared players don't fall asleep while doing dungeons and adventures they need to make the whole game linked so that it all work in the same direction and that all pieces are useful!
that would be smart design in my book.
 
and maybe the lack of it is burning me out at the moment.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not.  You're angry and making a subjective reading of a very clear and logical question.  I don't see what's wrong with the recommendation that, if you're angry, you probably aren't contributing to the conversation in the way you believe you are contributing.  I'll repeat the argument:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To accept that as reality, we would have to assume that, if it took EXACTLY as long as it did with the RNG, but forced them to slowly grind up a currency instead, they'd be more than happy to do it.  I simply don't find that, in the volume of complaints in Wildstar's past from its community, to be anything even close to the case.  I have never heard someone say, "Look, I don't mind spending two or more months grinding up gear and going weeks without getting an upgrade, but at least take out the RNG that gives me a shot to make it faster."
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, thinking about it for a bit, the easiest and simplest answer is just to provide rewards for doing content with missing gearslots. Acquire more gold/eg/renown/glory/whatever for doing tasks with pieces of gear unequipped. The more you unequip, the faster it goes. And maybe have achievements for completing shiphands naked except for a weapon and stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This has nothing to do with what I was clarifying.
This has nothing to do with my disapproval of the nerfing of grind content, this has nothing to do with your misconception of RNG=Grind.
Even Yasfan clarified this issue for you.
I have no interest in talking about your subject because its completely irrelevant to why am having issues with Carbine and validating playing this game more often.
 
I don't care about YOUR issues with the game, I don't want to talk about your opinions about the game. I wanted to say my disapproval of the issues in the game and clarify to others what the misconceptions were.
Your subject has NOTHING relevant to what I was talking about in the first place.
Your issues have NOTHING to do with my issues with the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Fran, you seem to be a bit overzealous now. Just an outsider's opinion though :)
 
Vic, the balance between time gated and rng gated is a tough one to nail... i personally think some rng is needed. maybe not to the extent that the runes were Rng, but aside from that. its cool in my book.
 
but then again, the idea is to make the players "spice up their activity" and always feel like they are "getting something" for doing so.
 
to kind of go back on my original post. wildstar is brutally shooting the players on a linear path to gear and that never looking back is the only way to go.
 
and that... is wrong.
 
for example. maybe each dungeon could be associated with an element ? and have good chance of dropping elder signs of that element ? (not a perfect solution, but just an explanation of my mindset).
this way every content could be "somehow relevant". that is the goal.
after they introce a rallying mechanic throughout the whole game (or at least all instances) so that DS geared players don't fall asleep while doing dungeons and adventures they need to make the whole game linked so that it all work in the same direction and that all pieces are useful!
that would be smart design in my book.
 
and maybe the lack of it is burning me out at the moment.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The bit in red is where you display why people say they like RNGs more than they actually do when they are experiencing them, why RNGs are such a key component of F2P business models, and why Vegas is rolling in cash.
 
In case you missed it, the RNG also gives you a shot to get the reward slower than average, not just faster than average. And whether most people get the reward faster, slower, or about the same amount of time as the average depends entirely on the properties of the loot distribution table that the RNG is being applied to.
 
The more time people have to invest in something, the more certain they want to be that what they're getting at the end is what they actually want. That's why people complained bitterly about the RNGs in dungeons and only groused a bit about the ones in challenges.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The funny thing is that Jeff actually suggested an idea in this very thread to address this that is feasible, novel, and would probably work for all types of PvE/PvP content across the board. And I think it's been pretty much buried in the discussion of how people respond to RNGs versus grinds.  :lol:
 
Oh, internets. You never cease to amuse me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But up the highway through raiding the way people see themselves going?  That was the major complaint.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Actually, thinking about it for a bit, the easiest and simplest answer is just to provide rewards for doing content with missing gearslots. Acquire more gold/eg/renown/glory/whatever for doing tasks with pieces of gear unequipped. The more you unequip, the faster it goes. And maybe have achievements for completing shiphands naked except for a weapon and stuff like that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The funny thing is that Jeff actually suggested an idea in this very thread to address this that is feasible, novel, and would probably work for all types of PvE/PvP content across the board. And I think it's been pretty much buried in the discussion of how people respond to RNGs versus grinds.  :lol:
 
Oh, internets. You never cease to amuse me.
----