110172-a-conversation-what-is-hardcore-really-page-2

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Based on the content of this thread "Hardcore" is absolutely a subjective term. You seem to think its grinding, while most others think its challenge that requires practice and strategy.
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"Hardcore" to me has always meant: the person(s) is extremely mean and enjoys belittling others who are not in their guild/social circle.
 
They also tend to use terms and words like: ubad, scrub, ubad, l2p, etc etc....usually in a public chat and or forums.
 
Also, their opinion(s) is the only thing that matters!	
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"Hardcore" to me has always meant: the person(s) is extremely mean and enjoys belittling others who are not in their guild/social circle.
 
They also tend to use terms and words like: ubad, scrub, ubad, l2p, etc etc....usually in a public chat and or forums.
 
Also, their opinion(s) is the only thing that matters!
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EDIT: After reading some other posts, this isn't to associate TIME with GRIND.  When I say time-investment, I refer to how much time is played in general.  For instance... someone who plays hardcore might play marathon-style for 6-8+ hours at a time, while a casual player, might only play for 2-3 hours at a time (even by choice, not in a condescending fashion).  Hardcore could also bring into picture those that take the extra time to look up guides or how-to's... like for example, when I used to play Anarchy Online many moons ago, I might look up references for where unique items dropped, how and where to find/make the leveling-gear, and where the hidden "easter-egg" items in the game were.
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regarding Raptr, I need 200 more hours to be the #1 player for Raptr users, does that make me "hardcore"? no. it means I play a lot.
 
I am not hardcore but I look up guides, I check to see the best way to play, I check out the best gear I can get for how I play and how to get it.
 
 
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regarding Raptr, I need 200 more hours to be the #1 player for Raptr users, does that make me "hardcore"? no. it means I play a lot.
 
I am not hardcore but I look up guides, I check to see the best way to play, I check out the best gear I can get for how I play and how to get it.
 
to be honest. this whole "hardcore" vs "casual" *cupcake* is just that. a smelly, steaming load of horse*cupcake*
 
some "casual" players are probably better players than the people claiming to be "hardcore"
 
its a very old "carebear" type designation which has little basis in reality and more basis in elite tards trying to feel better about themselves. I know many people with little time to play that know their class better than some of the people trying to say they are "hardcore" and the class sucks.
 
truth is this whole discussion is about people that have nothing but time and need to have an ego based on an online game calling down people who probably play better than them but cant spend every waking minute playing it. its old, its semantics and pretty much useless all around.
 
care more about teh game and less about how someone else plays it. because right now... thats whats in danger, the game, not that someone plays differently than you do. jeez, get some perspective already.
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You kind of missed the point, since HARDCORE is actually a RANK on Raptr (as I stated in the very post you QUOTED)... and before reaching HARDCORE, it even says, "play for x many more hours to become HARDCORE". *facepalm*
 
As for the last part of that... what the hell are you even on about?  I could give a care less how others play the game, which was my actual POINT... and perhaps you need a bit more perspective if you actually think I give a toss about "what's in danger"?  Seriously?  Have you seen any of my other posts!?  :D LOL!!!
 
If anything, I tend to take a more casual approach to games, but tend to play with a bit more of a "hardcore investment"... as stated when I pointed out looking up guides and how-to's to Anarchy Online and such. :huh:
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I mostly just quoted your post because it had the whole Raptr thing, which is only time invested, and not meaning YOU, but most of those people could have been "afk" levelling, which is about as hardcore and my cats sleeping all day
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just saying the whole "what is hardcore what is casual" discussion is an exercise in pointlessness. maybe 10 years ago it had a point. these days, not so much since many "hardcore" players are really hardcore about how much they can get with little effort.
 
I mostly just quoted your post because it had the whole Raptr thing, which is only time invested, and not meaning YOU, but most of those people could have been "afk" levelling, which is about as hardcore and my cats sleeping all day
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The problem with this type of thinking is that it`s too limited in what games are supposed to reward in my opinion. Even with the action-ey combat in WS it`s not just a twitch game rewarding reflexes and skill, but also an MMORPG that rewards things like planning, patience, organizational skill and teamwork etc. If you do as you suggest here and just scale everything, the teamwork aspect of it goes right out the window.
You also have a rather weird perspective on guilds. Some are awful and full of selfish elitists and that`s what /gquit is for. Some are great and not at all elitist, even if they`re really good.
 
For some reason people seem to want to play single player in MMOs and I just don`t get it.	
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The problem with this type of thinking is that it`s too limited in what games are supposed to reward in my opinion. Even with the action-ey combat in WS it`s not just a twitch game rewarding reflexes and skill, but also an MMORPG that rewards things like planning, patience, organizational skill and teamwork etc. If you do as you suggest here and just scale everything, the teamwork aspect of it goes right out the window.
You also have a rather weird perspective on guilds. Some are awful and full of selfish elitists and that`s what /gquit is for. Some are great and not at all elitist, even if they`re really good.
 
For some reason people seem to want to play single player in MMOs and I just don`t get it.
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The problem with this type of thinking is that it`s too limited in what games are supposed to reward in my opinion. Even with the action-ey combat in WS it`s not just a twitch game rewarding reflexes and skill, but also an MMORPG that rewards things like planning, patience, organizational skill and teamwork etc. If you do as you suggest here and just scale everything, the teamwork aspect of it goes right out the window.
You also have a rather weird perspective on guilds. Some are awful and full of selfish elitists and that`s what /gquit is for. Some are great and not at all elitist, even if they`re really good.
 
For some reason people seem to want to play single player in MMOs and I just don`t get it.
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			Not gonna even try to read all these garbage posts because the bottom line is; "Hardcore" in an MMO means you can devote somewhere between 10-16 hours a day every day you log in, you memorize every attack pattern and possible ability along with common class rotations. You can min-max all the right stats to maximum efficiency because others are simply not worth investing in in 9/10 situations. Player "skill" in MMO's is quantified by knowledge and mastery of those elements, not APM or whatever else people want to stroke their Epeen to. If you really want to be "HARDCORE" all you need is a calculator, some addons, and LOTS AND LOTS of free time.	
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			I`ll certainly agree with you that WS feels a bit empty, at least at low levels. But I do meet people now and then, but an issue for me is that it`s sometimes hard to realize that they are players because of the lack of plates. Several times I have had to mouse over someone and read the tool tip to make sure it`s a person. So this certainly isn`t helping with the ghost town thing. If anything, players should have huge neon signs over their heads.	
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For some reason people seem to want to play single player in MMOs and I just don`t get it.
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If you bothered to read the thread you've posted in before posting you'd find a healthy and productive discussion around current raid mechanics and potential solutions and improvements for those problems. Secondly, if you actually read the post you'd understand it's about more than just that single question and the original intent of the thread was to share a conversation with the community - also highlighted in the topic. Furthermore, if you'd like to argue forum etiquette - not reading a thread before posting in it is the definition of bad form.
 
Please, let's try to keep this thread civil. Some of us are having a good conversation; if there isn't something productive to add what do you gain by showboating?
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This is me of late. I am guild-less and proud of it yet I still devote a decent amount of time to W* in which I may even stack up enough time to be able to be labeled a Hardcore player depending on the definition which is still eluding my fellow forum hounds, even after many a conversations as to just what the hell is a hardcore player. All that bloodbath and logic leaf needs to come from some where right, no need to thank me, just don't 'cupcake' on me next time I cross your path in the Crimson Badlands doing my dailies solo. I had a guild, a fat load of good they were, always off focusing on the 'better' and longer live guild member to worry about a little low life worker like me.
 
You forum hounds are indeed having a classic debate on the topic of HC vs C and in doing so have still failed to hit an answer on the head. One says skill and time yet another will point out that time does not always lead to skill and that skill is not directly related to time. One could add that skill + time + crappy gear would lead to a different outcome than skill + time + BiS. So is the def of HC now BiS + time + skill, I think not as player X could have low time invested, good skill and have player Y craft BiS for player X.
 
In the end if this game was created for hardcore players isn't that a major worry considering that the people whom play W* and developed W* cannot actually define Hardcore to a satisfactory consensus. I would add my support behind the idea, that of the OP that a smaller group experience could be classed closer to an acceptable definition of a Hardcore content based upon the fact that a mistake/death in a small group is more noticeable and thus more unwanted leading to the argument that in a larger group, skill is of less important and one could be carried easier.
 
So at the extremes of the debate you have a player in a 40 man raid that can have low skill, low time invested and BiS gear who in reality is a worse player than a solo player whom can take on the Spider queen solo in the CB. I am 101% behind adding content that is more accessible to solo people like me or even adding a lower threshold of player number requirements for raids and X content. To all those whom have helped me in the CB, cheers!!! I may one day have a guild again, until then the fight for freedom goes on.
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Hardcore is someone who wants to play a game that is actually challenging, and requires time, effort, thinking, learning, and alertness to complete.
 
 
That is what wildstar is all about. You can't faceroll your way through vet dungeons or raids, and that's exactly why the "casual" people are complaining so much. The game has always been designed for the above. I don't know why so many casual players picked it up and act all surprised when they can't half-ass things.	
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Hardcore is someone who wants to play a game that is actually challenging, and requires time, effort, thinking, learning, and alertness to complete.
 
 
That is what wildstar is all about. You can't faceroll your way through vet dungeons or raids, and that's exactly why the "casual" people are complaining so much. The game has always been designed for the above. I don't know why so many casual players picked it up and act all surprised when they can't half-ass things.
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If you read the above, it is actually pretty easy to see how incorporating hybrid builds not only encourages more diversity from the players but offers much more options for handling the same fights. You can take any fight with multiple bosses, and vary the bosses so that one may do less damage but also take much more. You can force dps to carry support abilities as well. This is not only more difficult to manage the character build, it is also more difficult to manage the variation in skills while in combat.
 
This posting has already grown rather lengthy, and I don't feel that I need to elaborate much farther on this. Just with these ideas in mind you should be able to come up with at least 10 types of variations all on your own.
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 Warm and fuzzy, I like that as it makes me wonder at the social constructs and reward systems of which you seem to have listed for what constitutes fun for you in a fictional game and world. I am only half surprised at your failure to comprehend my logic in relation to the topic in this thread and the ends of the spectrum I spelled out. My apologies for not including everything which lies in the spectrum of what may or may not constitutes an enjoyable experience for someone playing a game.
 
While I supported the OPs point in adding more content for solo/smaller groups I actually did not specify what is hardcore or the position in which I see it, I was merely providing some highlights and context to the argument to date. My posts and reading of the forum are always twofold in games and their online communities such as W*. I am interested in what it is about games and the people who play them. The world dynamic is changing ever so quickly. Gone are the periods were a generational gap consisted of a few decades, the lines the define class are fracturing into highly compartementlize sub sections of communities.
 
No longer are you just a gamer, your now a HC gamer, a Hard Core HC gamer, Casual sub HC gamer or even just a plain of boring Causal gamer. Pick a side, pick a fractional and battle the daemons of the dark/light against the wheel of time… or just log off and come back to saving the world tomorrow. It’s a game for me and a lesson in people. I don’t give a cupcake about the ‘right’ answer, just the debate and idea. oh and having fun in a fictional world for periods of time to my choosing so as to not inconvenience my real life to much.	
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Hardcore is a mentality, you are here to get shit done. You don't just have a general understanding of your class, you know your class, how it works, where it falls short, where is overshadows others, and the reasons behind it. You put in the effort ( the amount of which varies depending on the person ) to not only understand how mechanics work, but the underlying reason they work that way. You pay attention and take the challenges of the game seriously, instead of just learning the encounters by rote memorization. There are many more examples, but in the end hardcore isn't about time investment ( though for some it will be ) it's about the attitude and mentality you bring to the game, you aren't just here to play, your here to dominate.
 
Casual on the other hand, isn't a bad thing. Casual means your here for the themepark, you want to ride the rides, and smell the roses, and have fun, while doing it at your own pace. You really don't care why an ability works the way it does, only the end result, and if something is a little less dps/hps/tps it's not a huge deal as long as it is good enough for the content you want to see. It means that no matter how little, or how much time you have to play you want to spend it doing fun things, even if they don't progress your character, or improve your gear.
 
The debate about time investment is silly, and often wrong, people with the casual mindset often spend much much more time in game then the hardcore mindset, mostly because a subset of that hardcore mindset is efficiency, if it's not a raid day they are on for their dailies, and maybe a dungeon ( once they are worth running ) but the casual is searching for low level quests they didn't do, or achievement hunting. In the end time investment is not only a bad way to try and separate these two groups, it's a downright false one.
 
Nor is group size about ahrdcore vs casual, it's about game and encounter design. No matter which way you slice it, more players means more flexibility and a better ability to bring unique and interesting mechanics into encounters. As others have already said, look at 4 horsemen from WoW, note the changes between 40/25/10 the encounter loses something at each step down. Thats not to say you cannot have complex and interesting mechanics on a micro level, but they tend to be either more punishing, or simpler versions of their Macro counterparts. Then there are some that just do not transition well.
 
That isn't to say all encounters aren't scaleable, In GA just off the top of my head, prototypes, x-89, phage maw, and all of the minibosses would work perfectly well scaled down to 10 players, however Kuralak, and Convergence would require significant reworks to be viable in a 10 man format. Many people have mentioned making bosses hit like a wet noodle, but that is never a good answer. Any boss ( specific design needs aside ) that is tankable by a dps instead of a tank, is not a raid boss, it's either a undertuned mob, or a gimmick. If a tank isn't needed it doesn't free up encounter design it limits it more by eliminating one of the three raid roles. Either a dps will tank it and need heals, or a tank will tank it and need very little healing, either way it's unhealthy encounter design.	
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