Report 460

Report #460
Skillset: Shofangi Skill: Butojo
 Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Sept 2010
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1.
Problem: Currently, Butojo slits the throat and causes a 1 momentum loss. This
enables it to be performed twice in a row: Starting once from 5th momentum, then
again at 4th. Then one could easily use Shotah to bring it back up to 5th
momentum to repeat the same process.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Make Butojo cause a loss of 2 momentum instead of 1
 as it is now. This prevents slit-locking twice in a
 row, and this solution immediately decreases our
 efficiency by a lot.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: OR give Butojo a power cost of 2. I refuse to make it
 anymore than this, as Skive (for taking off
 shields/rebounding/speed) costs 3p, and Boost costs
 5p.
Player Comments:
---[Sadie on 9/5 @ 07:15 writes]:
I strongly disagree with implementing both solutions together. It's either one
or the other, as Butojo is hardly an ability worthy of that extreme. Neither of
these solutions prevents Butojo from being used at 4 momentum, -however- the
first solution stops it from being used to slitlock twice in a row, which I
believe is the real problem.
---[Sahmiam on 9/5 @ 18:44 writes]:
I'm glad to see this report, but disappointed that the problem described is not
in fact the problem of the skill. The problem is the reliability of the lock -in
combination- with the fact you can do it on demand at mo4 and mo5. Solution 1
doesn't do enough as it doesn't address the reliability. Soluction 2 does do
enough as the power cost is less than a green or gedulah. The best thing to do
is to raise the ka cost such that the hardlock form requires a boost. Nekotai
have the most similar monk lock and pay 5 power for their hardlock at minimum.
There's no reason Shofangi shouldn't do the same
---[Sadie on 9/5 @ 19:30 writes]:
Uhh...you fail to take into account that the Nekotai have this bleeding thing
going on for them, and skilled ones have been able to repeatedly keep me down
with my eyes out. The Shofangi don't have that. Slitlock is pretty much the only
thing 'unique' to us at the moment (something that has been agreed on by most -
if not all - of the combatants that have been in this guild). Yes, there's the
ability to do a bit of damage, but all the monks have that, and it's not really
something to rely on. So no, rather than making us 'the same', that would just
dump us in the pits.
---[Sahmiam on 9/6 @ 00:35 writes]:
I don't forget to take that into account. I realize that the point, perhaps
while correct, isn't a good reason to not properly balance a skill/combo. The
Nekotai also have increased poison proccing and lose 3 momentum for their
hardlock. If you lose 1 momentum and pay 5 power, that's fair as you don't have
the extra benefits. If you wish to keep the OP lock, however, that's your
perogative. I can't in good conscience agree to any buff to the Shofangi as long
as the Shofangi have it in any form that is so reliable and requires less of an
investment to the attacker than to the victim. The problem is that you can force
a person out of power solely through one combo. Even if you pay 2 power for it,
that doesn't compare to the 3 power for a green/gedulah.
---[Sahmiam on 9/6 @ 00:36 writes]:
Additionally, incompetence is not a valid reason for balance.
---[Sadie on 9/7 @ 07:11 writes]:
I think either of the solutions are already very reasonable. I still favour the
first one as I said, because it prevents doing slitlock twice in a row. That in
itself slows things down a LOT. 2 power is quite fine, considering there's the
high chance you'll get hindered in between, and the opponent has plenty of time
to green out while you have to get momentum again.
---[Synl on 9/7 @ 17:07 writes]:
I'm not seeing how 2p serves any purpose at all. Anyone care to inform me why it
would balance the ability inany way? Until that point, I would say solution 2
with 5p. Alternatively, maybe a change to the costs of the Butojo/Stomp/Hook to
500/200/350 respectively? This will force a boost, much like how Nekotai must
boost to greenlock. However, it's still a better greenlock due to costing 2 less
momentum.
---[Sahmiam on 9/8 @ 00:39 writes]:
I wouldn't touch hook, as it's not used solely in this combo and raising the
cost would be a nerf areas that are perfectly fine. You could raise stomp to 250
(probably needed anyways to bring in line with other skills) and raise botujo to
550. Otherwise botujo should be raised to 700 ka.
---[Synl on 9/8 @ 02:11 writes]:
Whatever brings up the total greenlock form cost to 1050 is fine. I'll take your
word for it that Hook shouldn't be touched.
---[Sadie on 9/8 @ 15:33 writes]:
This report is an attempt to cautiously bring an ability in line as a result of
outside complaints regarding it. Dismantling a skillset that is otherwise
lacking compared to its contemporaries to sate some envoy nerf bloodlust isn't a
good solution. If this were a general monk review, and the the advantages other
sets have were being stripped away as well, that would be one thing. But it
isn't. This is a conservative, cautious balancing of a skillset.
---[Synl on 9/8 @ 16:45 writes]:
Except the cautious balancing does not balance the ability in question in any
way. Unless I am missing something, in which case I asked you once (and am doing
so again) to enlighten me. How does giving the ability a cost of 2p solve make
it balanced at all? Remember that Nekotai greenlock vs. Shofangi greenlock (the
only two such reliable greenlocks) compare as level 5 momentum, 5 power, -3
momentum vs. level 4+ momentum, 0 power, -1 moment. Bringing the costs up to
equal 1050 ka for the total greenlock changes the comparison to (Nekotai) 5 mo,
5 power, -3 mo vs. (Shofangi) 5 mo, 5 power, -1 mo.
---[Synl on 9/8 @ 17:23 writes]:
Put it this way: balancing a monk skill in regards to the perceived power level
of other monk skills is not balancing at all. For example, imagine if, rather
than downgrade Pyromancy, every other mage guild had upgraded to the level of
Pyromancy.
---[Sahmiam on 9/10 @ 16:11 writes]:
Synl is correct, and I think you'll find other guilds willing to work with you
fix perceived problems after the greenlock is properly addressed. However, Synl
stated the reasons very clearly as to why this report is not enough. I
recomment, once more, raising the ka costs to force a boost.
---[Fillin on 9/15 @ 21:18 writes]:
I don't think Shofangi greenlock should be as costly as Nekotai's since it
doesn't have the guaranteed-ish poisons mod. It shouldn't, however, be as
reliable, and with two chances to nail one poison it comes uncomfortably close.
My suggestion is to keep the costs the same, but change butojo to a two handed
action. This will make the poison rate not so reliable and also, if you want
them to gedulah instead of just cleanse, it requires you have them prone
-before- you use the lock (very much doable for a monk, but not as spammable).
---[Sadie on 9/16 @ 11:32 writes]:
No. I'm strongly against this, because this would be a really big change to the
way we slitlock, and as Sahmiam demonstrated to me, make us require performing
-THREE- forms. With Butojo as a 2h action, we wouldn't be able to prone in the
same form -- meaning we'd have to grapple prior to butojo, and prone during
that. So basically, we'd be useless most of the time against any acrobat, or
someone who escapes the grapple, or if a form in between gets interrupted, or
something else. That solution is even worse than adding in a cost like what I'm
suggesting here, in my opinion.
---[Sadie on 9/16 @ 12:11 writes]:
I'd rather have a loss of 3 momentum for Butojo, than make it a two-handed
ability.
---[Fillin on 9/17 @ 05:56 writes]:
It would require set up and planning, that is true. I'm not convinced that's a
bad thing though.
---[Sahmiam on 9/17 @ 21:56 writes]:
Grapples now work on acrobats, so saying that the skill is useless against
contortionists is just plain false. The entire point of Fillin's suggestion is
to force the prone outside of the form, and you seem to forget two important
details: a) it's still very much possible and b) you can still softlock in one
form. My demonstration to you was under the assumption that it was a 1vs1
situation AND the target was suffering from NO OTHER afflictions.
---[Raeri on 9/18 @ 05:53 writes]:
Does Buck not let you prone on the mangle now?
---[Sadie on 9/19 @ 07:07 writes]:
No, Buck doesn't prone when you're mangled. And yes, I realise that Sahmiam.
Which, after I tested, I still find less desirable than losing 3 momentum from
Butojo.
---[Sahmiam on 9/20 @ 03:06 writes]:
Where is losing 3 momentum coming from? That applies to the Nekotai who also pay
5 power for their hardlock. The current suggestions from us outside of the
proposed solutions (which arguably don't solve the problem) are a boost or 2h
ability
---[Xenthos on 9/26 @ 02:24 writes]:
Sadie is saying that she would rather make the skill drop 3 momentum than make
Butojo a 2h action, Sahmiam. That's the only place that's coming from at this
point. But I do think it's pretty clear that the solutions here don't really
fix the problem. I agree with Ceren-- the skill does not need to be as costly
as the Nekotai's if it is made less reliable. If it is left as reliable as it
is, it needs a higher cost than the solutions provide. These solutions leave it
way less costly and don't address the reliability at all really. Change it to a
2h action to address the reliability issue, -or- make it drop a couple levels of
momentum with a higher ka cost to address the cost-side.
---[Sahmiam on 9/27 @ 20:42 writes]:
I don't think merely increasing the momentum penalties will solve the problem.
It's true that the hardlock is not as reliable as the Nekotai's, but let's not
get lost and forget that it's still pretty dang reliable. A force boost for a
one-form hardlock (notice, not 2 form hardlock or 1 form softlock) -is- less
costly than a Nekotai's boost AND 3 momentum loss. The question is if 5 power
and 1 momentum loss is sufficient given the reliability, and I think it is. A
hardlock costing 1025 forces a boost while allowing plenty of room for
additional modifiers.