105497-attunement-killed-end-game-original-post-here-page-3

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People sure do love their slippery slope arguments.
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Here's the problems I see with the attunement process:
 
1) The step-by-step process draws it out, and makes it so that players get log-jammed at Silver runs and feel like they aren't progressing.  I say let people start working on world bosses, adventures, and dungeons at the same time, and feed the solo content in based on total % complete. People are overstating how time-consuming the process is, but it's more the feeling of being stuck at a certain point.
 
2) I honestly don't think that Silver runs are too difficult (with a guild or circle), but the RNG nature and high-stakes can make it frustrating. Maybe let people do 6 total silver runs in at least 3 dungeons, that way you don't get pigeon-holed into needing a specific one.
 
3) Probably the #1 culprit is that crafted gear is broken (or has poor itemization as they would say), and so people are not doing runs for gear.  This problem is two-fold, you feel stuck doing dungeons for no purpose than attunement, and this eliminates a lot of the support that people going through the attunement would get from veteran players.  People would be more eager to do the runs for better rewards.  Along these same lines, it's better to do solo content for platinum.  Better returns in the coin-purse would make good players want to farm dungeons, which in turn would make them easier.
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I'm sure its already been said so I'll just repeat it - simply remove the "silver" requirement for attunement and allow the general completion of a dungeon to count towards the attunement progression.  If you have a group of 5 players who are willing to wipe over and over again but stick with the encounters to finally complete the dungeon then CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!  You're ready to Raid. 
 
As it stands now PUGs. . . . which ARE a part of the game so we can't be snobs about it, disband as soon as Silver looks like its not gonna happen; which does nothing for building a community or training up players.
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If they nerf attunment, I can't wait until you get people in Genetic Archives crying that Kuralak is too hard and needs to be nerfed.
 
"How are we supposed to get to the second act if this boss is preventing us from seeing it?  We could totally kill her if X, but that is unfair of you to make us do, so please make her do this other thing instead that is 'of the exact same difficulty' except we know we can do it."
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Say they do this. Where does it end then? 2-3 weeks later the forum will just be overflown with complaints that raids are to hard. 
Repeatedly nerfing the content will only result in the game being a joke of its former self.
 
Trust me, people will keep complaining. If they nerf something you just open the door to the next subject of complaints whining. 
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I don't have any personal experience with GA. But I know there are plenty of guilds that spend hours and hours wiping on the first boss.
 
If people can't get organized enough to do silvers, they are going to struggle with GA.
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			Kuralak alone is harder than any silver dungeon.  If you are coming to the forums complaining about the difficulty of silver dungeons, then it is reasonable to believe you will complain about Kuralak.  It isn't a slippery slope fallacy if there is a logical reason to assume the next step.	
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			just posting after a poster named after my hometown. that is all.	
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People aren't complaining about the difficulty of the dungeons. No one is saying we can't clear the dungeon, people are saying silver dungeons having a timer are the issue. There hasn't been a post that I have read that has said, I can't kill X boss so I can't get silver. Please stop using the argument that a raid boss is harder than a dungeon boss, they better be!
 
We're not asking for easier content, we're asking that they just remove timers from silvers.	
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People aren't complaining about the difficulty of the dungeons. No one is saying we can't clear the dungeon, people are saying silver dungeons having a timer are the issue. There hasn't been a post that I have read that has said, I can't kill X boss so I can't get silver. Please stop using the argument that a raid boss is harder than a dungeon boss, they better be!
 
We're not asking for easier content, we're asking that they just remove timers from silvers.
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just posting after a poster named after my hometown. that is all.
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A person from Minneapolis named Sarcamento, huh.
 
Also hi other Minneapolis person thingy.
 
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So you are asking them to make silver dungeons easier?
 
Edit: And I am not saying Kuralak is harder than a dungeon boss. I am saying that Kuralak is harder than getting silver in any of the dungeons.
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So you are asking them to make silver dungeons easier?
 
Edit: And I am not saying Kuralak is harder than a dungeon boss. I am saying that Kuralak is harder than getting silver in any of the dungeons.
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Do you guys understand the huge difference between having a much time as you need to learn and having a timer ticking in your face? 
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You call it easier, I call it more accessible to the masses. Why does it matter? It's not like it is stopping you from raiding? I don't get the point people are making that is trying to drive people from the game.
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So you are asking them to make silver dungeons easier?
 
Edit: And I am not saying Kuralak is harder than a dungeon boss. I am saying that Kuralak is harder than getting silver in any of the dungeons.
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You call it easier, I call it more accessible to the masses. Why does it matter? It's not like it is stopping you from raiding? I don't get the point people are making that is trying to drive people from the game.
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You call it easier, I call it more accessible to the masses. Why does it matter? It's not like it is stopping you from raiding? I don't get the point people are making that is trying to drive people from the game.
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Yes, of course.
 
It's more challenging to do content when you have to execute it efficiently.
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Yes, of course.
 
It's more challenging to do content when you have to execute it efficiently.
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The point is that if silvers are driving people from the game, then the actual raid content will drive them from the game just the same.
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Though I haven't made any silver attempts yet, I did run with a group that was preparing for silver attempts. The feel of the group was completely different than pugs I've done. It was very focused, organized, and communication was high. We were calling out interrupt rotations over vent. We adjusted to one another as we went.
 
It was a great deal of fun for me. I'm sure if I was able to run with that group regularly I'd have gotten silver pretty soon (in fact, they did- and I wasn't the weakest link. I had high survivability and just under the #1 dps in damage).	
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I'd agree if they were properly tuned for their timers, but at this point they aren't. You have to exploit, skip packs and find ways to bug mobs to do it efficiently. Don't think that's what they had in mind
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I think the point is, actually, timers aren't a good metric to judge group ability.
 
I think the game should have a medal requirement for attunement.  I don't think it should be timers.  A timer will dock you if you do a perfect run, but someone needed to stop because their kid threw up.
 
I don't think that the medal check should be removed, but I am firmly in the camp that timers should be replaced.  Beating the timer requires you to do things that aren't always important in raiding, like skipping and bugging content.	
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You have more than enough time to do them without exploiting anything.  Just did a stormtalon's lair monday night with a healer who didn't do it ever, we had one practice run and then a real run.  The real run was in 25 minutes without being able to exploit anything.
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I think the point is, actually, timers aren't a good metric to judge group ability.
 
I think the game should have a medal requirement for attunement.  I don't think it should be timers.  A timer will dock you if you do a perfect run, but someone needed to stop because their kid threw up.
 
I don't think that the medal check should be removed, but I am firmly in the camp that timers should be replaced.  Beating the timer requires you to do things that aren't always important in raiding, like skipping and bugging content.
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Funny thing about that, they just added time to STL because they saw the time was bad. Weird
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They added time because they made it so that you couldn't skip the mobs in the hallway anymore by running up the side.  Though, they did add too much time, 5 minutes would have been plenty.  But once again, carbine changing something without actually testing it.
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Funny thing about that, they just added time to STL because they saw the time was bad. Weird
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			They kept timers did they not?  How does this prove they are bad if they kept them?	
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My point, people were exploiting to get through it. They stopped the exploit and realized then that they'd need to extend the time because of this. Thanks for helping to prove that timers are bad in this environment
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I think the point is, actually, timers aren't a good metric to judge group ability.
 
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Yep. Doesn't mean timers are bad. That one wasn't tuned well for doing all the trash. It means Carbine is listening and adjusting.
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			They are more than a DPS check. They are a "can the group coordinate together and do things efficiently" check.	
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If someone's kid threw up and ruined silver, requeue.  Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
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We can just the skip trash by running up the wall right? That's what attune 5 taught me.
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Good luck doing trash pulls in GA then.
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Kuralak alone is harder than any silver dungeon.  If you are coming to the forums complaining about the difficulty of silver dungeons, then it is reasonable to believe you will complain about Kuralak.  It isn't a slippery slope fallacy if there is a logical reason to assume the next step.
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In theory, timers are supposed to be a DPS check. In reality, timers encourage skipping content so that the whole point of it being a DPS check winds up being negated.
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In theory, timers are supposed to be a DPS check. In reality, timers encourage skipping content so that the whole point of it being a DPS check winds up being negated.
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How did you skip all the trash in Skullcano?  And yes, there are some trash packs you skip in GA.  You don't do them because Carbine put them there as decoration.
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It penalizes the team if someone needs to pee or needs to leave the computer for some reason, which happens all the time in raids before pulls.
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There's a few ways to do this, but since you get the quest to kill either the 40 of them or the jailors you just kill what you have to and run around the rest, that's pretty easy to do
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You don't see how people complaining that something hard is preventing them from progressing won't complain when they are confronted by something even harder blocking them from progressing?
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the first "preventing them from progressing" and the second "preventing them from progressing" in your post are 2 different things you've conflated to serve your argument.
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And congratulations, that is exactly what you are supposed to do, kill the ones you have to and move on.
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They are more than a DPS check. They are a "can the group coordinate together and do things efficiently" check.
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lol ya you're right, I should skip content to complete the dungeon in a timer OR I can work with my team and kill everything in the instance, get even better together on interrupt order and really solidify our comp and teamwork.
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Something I learned back in City of Heroes: Being dead is zero DPS. In other words, survival and interrupts are part of the DPS check.
 
And neither point negates the fact that there's a lot more room for error in your survival and interrupts when you can skip right past trash content.
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How so?
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The first is an attunement - giving access to raids - that's more difficult for guilds to cope with than it should be. The other is a raid boss that's hard.
 
2 completely different things.
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The only reason those amounts of mobs are there are for decoration.  Just like in WoW, you never pulled every pack in the instance.  Even without a timer, it was just a waste of time.
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No, but it is a point that a timer is not a good way to judge whether a team is good at dodging telegraphs, throwing interrupts, or coordinating bursts.  It penalizes the team if someone needs to pee or needs to leave the computer for some reason, which happens all the time in raids before pulls.  It rewards people for bugging and skipping bosses with extra loot which raids don't do.
 
There are better options, such as judging the medal completion by how much overall damage is taken before mitigation by the party.  Taking damage when you're not supposed to in a raid IS a problem.
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The first is an attunement - giving access to raids - that's more difficult for guilds to cope with than it should be. The other is a raid boss that's hard.
 
2 completely different things.
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And congratulations, that is exactly what you are supposed to do, kill the ones you have to and move on.
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			I personally don't mind the dungeons (though I agree that the timer is not necessarily indicative of skill). The WBs at the end of it are, with the exception of the rep grind, the most unnecessary and dumb time gate. They're not even difficult. Most are 2-mannable (with the exception of the higher level bosses/events like the ones in malgrave). The only "challenge" is not falling asleep at your desk waiting for them to spawn, so I'm not sure what purpose they have in what is largely a "skill-based" raid attunement.	
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If you go back to what Carbine said initially, they added mobs because they want you to fight them not for decoration, so again the way things are initially setup they timers are not a good metric in their instances.
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Kuralak is an attunement for Act 2.
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There's no real reason to define Kuralak as such. It's just to serve your argument.
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			Man, are you sure we aren't on the GW2 boards right now? Because I'd have a GW2 forum bingo with all this talk about trash packs.	
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In a 20 man, this better not happen "all the time" before pulls. At least not boss pulls.
 
I've never done hardcore raiding. I led a "casual" raiding guild in WotLK. We had scheduled breaks, and it was expected people would wait for them. Yes, sometimes emergencies come up and we understood that. But they didn't happen "all the time". Most nights people only ever went AFK during our breaks.
 
And that was on *easy* content. If I had people afking all the time in a Wildstar 20 person raid, I'm pretty sure I'd go find a guild where people actually respected one another's time. Because as a casual, I don't have a lot of it.
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I'm sure you didn't do hardcore raiding.  You always, always, ALWAYS stop before a pull and ask if anyone needs to take a break for any reason.  Then, you wait for them to be back.
 
That's not about common courtesy or anything, that's just being smart, because once the pull starts, it's on.
 
I suppose that might not be as common if you started raiding in WoW post-Wrath, but from vanilla to Pandaria, I always made sure we hit the breaks, explained the fight, and made sure everybody was ready.
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But a "dps check" implies that it's all on the dps whether you can beat the check. This requires coordination from the whole group, including healers and tanks.
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I'm sure you didn't do hardcore raiding.  You always, always, ALWAYS stop before a pull and ask if anyone needs to take a break for any reason.  Then, you wait for them to be back.
 
That's not about common courtesy or anything, that's just being smart, because once the pull starts, it's on.
 
I suppose that might not be as common if you started raiding in WoW post-Wrath, but from vanilla to Pandaria, I always made sure we hit the breaks, explained the fight, and made sure everybody was ready.
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The purpose of attunement is to prevent you from seeing content until you accomplish it.  Kuralak prevents you from going onto Act 2 until you beat her.  It is just like how you had to beat Onyxia (A LOT) to be able to Nefarian.
 
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Then let me put it more technical and say its a party DPS check. You have X minutes to take out Y health. How is this not a test of party DPS?
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Then let me put it more technical and say its a party DPS check. You have X minutes to take out Y health. How is this not a test of party DPS?
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No, Kuralak is a boss before a bunch of other bosses. I refuse to broaden the meaning of the word "attunement" to such a ludicrous extent just because you want your slippery slope argument to fit.
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I'm sure you didn't do hardcore raiding.  You always, always, ALWAYS stop before a pull and ask if anyone needs to take a break for any reason.  Then, you wait for them to be back.
 
That's not about common courtesy or anything, that's just being smart, because once the pull starts, it's on.
 
I suppose that might not be as common if you started raiding in WoW post-Wrath, but from vanilla to Pandaria, I always made sure we hit the breaks, explained the fight, and made sure everybody was ready.
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dear carbine, the hardest part about your attunement process is that you made full of "stay focused intensely for 45 minutes" situations. you're never going to have a 45 minute long bossfight in a raid, and our ability to chainpull trash, memorise which mobs to pull for which optionals, and skipping trash is hopefully not going to have any relevance for how we perform in raids. after a guild merge, to get a guild capable of even having steady dungeon teams (the two old ones blew up once people saw your attunement process), i find myself in a steady group, who around the 30 minute mark starts to make stupid mistakes, wipe on trash packs identical to those we just killed 10 of, look at the timer, go "oh well, silver's gone", have a 10 minute smoke/relaxation break, come back and do the rest of the run smoothly.couple that with the fact that there's litterally 2 drops i can use from the entirety of all the dungeons, one of them the supposed to be exceedingly rare legendary gloves (unless im ridonkulously lucky and have a shitty item drop for me with 5 omni slots). and im sitting back with a feeling of "why the hell am i doing this shit?".
 
the attunement challenges my ability to get a group of adults who can play between 19:30 and 23:30 every other day together, and our ability to shut out the outside world, deal with a sweaty mouse in the heat, not yell at eachother in our eternally stressed state, while simultaneusly accepting that we have to pay to do this shit before we get to do the stuff we like. 
it does not challenge my ability to kill bosses, who are infact not that hard, once you get a bit of practice on the mechanics.
 
the only reason im still even logging in is that im an mmo addict, who just got his first halfway decent fix in 5 years. too bad my mmo pusher just lured me in with a high quality freebie, and now keeps trying to push product i dont want down my throat, while promising that the next time i go to buy, ill get something amazing.	
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Knowing which packs to skip shows that your group is coordinated and focused on the goal at hand.  It also shows that you are familiar with the dungeon well enough to know what does and doesn't need to be done.
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So the attunment in TBC wasn't an attunment since it was solely do these bosses before you can do these bosses?
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No, we did this even then. However, if we had someone AFK before every boss pull ("all the time") then that would have been a drag on everyone.
 
I'm sure you didn't have people afking "all the time" in all of your raids outside of breaks.
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the attunement challenges my ability to get a group of adults who can play between 19:30 and 23:30 every other day together, and our ability to shut out the outside world, deal with a sweaty mouse in the heat, not yell at eachother in our eternally stressed state, while simultaneusly accepting that we have to pay to do this shit before we get to do the stuff we like.
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dear carbine, the hardest part about your attunement process is that you made full of "stay focused intensely for 45 minutes" situations. you're never going to have a 45 minute long bossfight in a raid, and our ability to chainpull trash, memorise which mobs to pull for which optionals, and skipping trash is hopefully not going to have any relevance for how we perform in raids. 
after a guild merge, to get a guild capable of even having steady dungeon teams (the two old ones blew up once people saw your attunement process), i find myself in a steady group, who around the 30 minute mark starts to make stupid mistakes, wipe on trash packs identical to those we just killed 10 of, look at the timer, go "oh well, silver's gone", have a 10 minute smoke/relaxation break, come back and do the rest of the run smoothly.
couple that with the fact that there's litterally 2 drops i can use from the entirety of all the dungeons, one of them the supposed to be exceedingly rare legendary gloves (unless im ridonkulously lucky and have a shitty item drop for me with 5 omni slots). and im sitting back with a feeling of "why the hell am i doing this shit?".
 
the attunement challenges my ability to get a group of adults who can play between 19:30 and 23:30 every other day together, and our ability to shut out the outside world, deal with a sweaty mouse in the heat, not yell at eachother in our eternally stressed state, while simultaneusly accepting that we have to pay to do this shit before we get to do the stuff we like. 
it does not challenge my ability to kill bosses, who are infact not that hard, once you get a bit of practice on the mechanics.
 
the only reason im still even logging in is that im an mmo addict, who just got his first halfway decent fix in 5 years. too bad my mmo pusher just lured me in with a high quality freebie, and now keeps trying to push product i dont want down my throat, while promising that the next time i go to buy, ill get something amazing.
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Raid trash/minibosses can easily wipe a group if you aren't paying attention, so the "intense focus" is appropriate, I think.
If raid trash was faceroll, you might have had a point.
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lol, you missed the point completely. Kill the boss, take a break, then come back and kill trash until boss, take a break, face smash until boss is dead, rinse and repeat. No need to have "intense focus" the whole time. kthxbai
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This doesn't sound like the raiding I've done. We did take breaks, but certainly not after every boss was down and before each boss was pulled.
 
We would definitely stay focused for an hour or so at a time.
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lol, you missed the point completely. Kill the boss, take a break, then come back and kill trash until boss, take a break, face smash until boss is dead, rinse and repeat. No need to have "intense focus" the whole time. kthxbai
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Do people really take 10-15 min breaks between trash and bosses? God, GA is huge. I mean, if that's your pace more power to you, but I'd find that unbearably slow.
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so you're saying that right after you killed a boss your tank was running out of the room and immediately pulling the next trash group? Really? I feel sorry for you.
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A lot of people wanted vanilla WoW raiding without having been there.
 
Yes, before every boss pull, you did a /readycheck.  You didn't pull until you got 40 responses.  If someone needed to do something, that was the time.  You didn't grudge people who took care of whatever they'd needed to take care of.
 
It didn't happen every single time we checked, but when you're talking about 40 people, it happened quite a bit.  Generally, you got them more right when you got to the boss, rather than after a wipe and run back, but you always checked.
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Attunement = raiding preview
Attunement timed =/= Non-timed raiding
The cake =/= The truth
 
That's all I'am saying..	
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I view attunement as just another step in the progression toward raiding.
 
It's not like leveling is a "raiding preview", but it is a step toward getting there.	
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So the entire group sits around while waiting for master loot to distribute? Do the people who don't need loot not run to the next place and wait for the stragglers? Like, there are places you have to backtrack in GA. Sitting around when there's nothing for you on the loot table is incredibly inconsiderate of people's time, imho, especially in a group that only raids a few nights a week.
 
I'm not saying you have to pull immediately after, but there's nothing wrong with moving to the next place and getting ready to pull. I thought that was what everyone did. Huh. TIL I guess.
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This is what I mean, master looter distributes pieces, people that don't have an item in the loot to roll on or be given from the loot council either takes a quick break, grabs a drink, uses the restroom, says good night to their kids or wife or dog or, etc and comes back, runs to the next area and gets ready to run. So based on this raiding=/=silver dungeons with timers where you have to immediately pull, skip groups, use bugs and exploits and focus for 40+ minutes strait
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I view attunement as just another step in the progression toward raiding.
 
It's not like leveling is a "raiding preview", but it is a step toward getting there.
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We were pulling trash while loot was being distributed. It's a lot more fun to be killing stuff than standing around waiting.
 
Of course, we did this when everyone knew the loot tables and what they were going for. On progression kills there was a lot of "ooooh, shiny!"
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You know you have been saying if you attunement was easier people would have trouble in raids...How would that not make attunement a raiding preview? How would your statement be true then?
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I was saying that if people cannot handle the challenge of silver, they are not going to like the challenge of raiding.
 
If someone thinks leveling is too difficult, they probably are not going to do well in vet dungeons.
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This would work in WoW or other games where the RNG of rune slots were not there and you knew exactly what item had dropped and what to expect from it. Now with the awesome (and by awesome I mean totally crap) RNG system Carbine has implemented, you might pull trash and miss an item because you are focused on the fight and not looking at the stats and comparing slots.
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and what we are saying about this kind of defense is you cannot correlate one with the other. I hated WoW dungeons but loved WoW raiding. I hate leveling but I love end game content. They don't equal each other
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Well, I don't know what the raiding experience is like here; but I suspect it's reasonable to expect people to focus for at least an hour at a time.
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and what we are saying about this kind of defense is you cannot correlate one with the other. I hated WoW dungeons but loved WoW raiding. I hate leveling but I love end game content. They don't equal each other
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Because you can hide behind 19 other people rather than be exposed as the weak one against 4 others?
 
Sounds about right.
 
You absolutely CAN correlate dungeons to raids, and that's why they are part of the attunement. You learn teamwork, mechanics and class proficiency... which you will need X10 in raiding. Those appkit directly.
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Wanting the scope but not the pace are two entirely different things. It's also entirely possible to pull in a timely fashion without 15min bios between every boss.
At least that's been my experience. I suppose I could be wrong for not wanting someone to go afk for 25 minutes, killing the group's momentum.
 
I really shouldn't have to clarify this but I feel like I need to anyways. I have no problem with small bios, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Just do them in a way that doesn't inconvenience 20-40 other people, is all.
I mean, hell, I once peed during the opening speech of HLK. I got back just as it pulled. And I even washed my hands.
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So pretty much just assuming because you think that's the way it should be..Even through you have no experience with either raiding or silvering dungeons..
If attunement is not a raid preview then being having issues with attunement has nothing to do with raiding at all?
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He stated that if you don't like dungeons you probably won't like raiding, nothing to do with them being content that is close in the aspect of what they require. 
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What I meant was, if you find abc task to be too difficult for you, you won't enjoy xyz task which is even harder.
 
When people who are not capable of easily getting silvers (so say a group of folks that just purchased attunment runs) are downing GA bosses, then I'll change my assumptions about the difficulty of the content.
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This is already happening, so you ready to change?
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Sure. Link?
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-snipped for length-
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Is true, dungeons are hard.
Difference between Adventure and Dungeon veterans is night and day.
 
Chua like it, but can understand is turn off for many Humans.
Many many discussions in Dungeons forum on how to change.
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Ah, okay, we are on the same page then.
I agree that the requirements for silver could be better. But it's adequate as it stands.
 
I think the biggest problem with dungeons is that past the attunement there is very little incentive to even go back for golds. Who on earth would want to do gold SSM more than once? Part of this has to do with the timer, but part of it also has to do with the fact that it's an ~hour long test of your sanity with no deaths and the world's dumbest jumping puzzle.
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Link to what? A guild killing bosses, you can go to wildstarlogs for that. There are plenty of people on plenty of servers that have paid for runs and doing well in GA. 
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I will say, some buddies from my guild attempted Vet STL with me. I'm pretty well geared for it, but they were a little behind so it was just a learning exercise. We managed to PUG this DPS from our server who basically outleveled the place in terms of gear. He knew the fights cold. Needed nothing from there and just queued to kill time. Because his guild was busy wiping on the first boss of GA and he was warming the bench that night.
 
Guy was completely awesome. Wiped over and over with us, gently giving us suggestions to help us do better (which we did). His DPS was off the charts good and I have no question that he could easily (and had) silver Vet Dungeons. And he was the bench for a guild that hasn't downed the first boss of GA yet.
 
Side note: we sent the guy repair money from our build bank for being so cool and helping us out.	
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here's the thing about 20+ man groups and staying focused, while not stopping completely. after each kill, you have 1 master looter, 3-4 guys who need to check up on the loot, and potentially bid on it, plus an additional 4-6 guys who need to pee/grab a drink/clear their mind, that leaves you with 12-32 guys eager to get moving who pulls trash, the rest joins in when they finish their other stuff, and everyone is ready and focused for the bossfights.
 
for me, a better solution could be making the timers challenges, for an extra loot drop like the other challenges,  and introduce kill the bosses x amount of times, or complete the dungeon with less than x  amount of deaths, heck, there's bucketloads of options. but please make the check related to ability to kill bosses, not how much time do you want to spend grinding, and how little do you want to enjoy the experience.dont get me wrong, time limits can be great, i love me a good dps race boss, or a gauntlet, or a survive for x amount of time boss, but this you gotta rush everything has got ta' go.now i see some of the reasoning behind it, like some of the bosses where you can ignore their enrage timers and kill them with a dps and a healer (did you know that you can just circlestrafe the last boss in skullcano with a single dps and a healer?), but why the hell apply it to the entire dungeon, killing your trash takes absolutely zero amount of skill, and killing it fast enough to have time to spare is a 50% gear, 10% interrupt reflexes and 40% using the right addons issue. (offtopic, seriously, have you tried playing your game with the default ui, managing cooldowns and interrupts, while watching your feet? you need three eyes for that, pointing in different directions.)you could have a timer that activated when you pulled a boss, saying kill this boss within x amount of time, and then dissapeared after the kill. heck, you could even have individual medals for bosses that way, and put the requirement to be get x amount of medals in dungeons overall, allowing people to gold some bosses,  and bronze others, compensating for people being good at different things, while letting the players move on instead of eternally fight that one bloody boss they just cant get their head around. 	
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I will say, some buddies from my guild attempted Vet STL with me. I'm pretty well geared for it, but they were a little behind so it was just a learning exercise. We managed to PUG this DPS from our server who basically outleveled the place in terms of gear. He knew the fights cold. Needed nothing from there and just queued to kill time. Because his guild was busy wiping on the first boss of GA and he was warming the bench that night.
 
Guy was completely awesome. Wiped over and over with us, gently giving us suggestions to help us do better (which we did). His DPS was off the charts good and I have no question that he could easily (and had) silver Vet Dungeons. And he was the bench for a guild that hasn't downed the first boss of GA yet.
 
Side note: we sent the guy repair money from our build bank for being so cool and helping us out.
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My assumption as to why he's benched is because he's taking one for the team. I wasn't inferring anything about his skill level. I assume that the rest of his guild is likely near the same level of skill/gear.
 
Why they're wiping is because it's hard stuff :)
 
I'm just saying it seems like raiding is harder than silvering dungeons.
 
And I wasn't really drawing too much conclusions. Just one more piece of evidence that raiding in this game is hard (also see that we have only one exile guild on my server that has downed one boss in GA).
 
I WAS a GL for "progression", but for a casual guild. Like, Naxx25 and whatever the raid was that came after it (before I had to quit MMOs for a while due to non-game related stuff), which I know doesn't really count very much :)	
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3) Probably the #1 culprit is that crafted gear is broken (or has poor itemization as they would say), ...
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
I'm just saying it seems like raiding is harder than silvering dungeons.
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Ahh, gotcha. I think we can all agree on that  :)
 
His dps and presence on the bench that night and their wiping is interesting, but without more info, probably unrelated   ;)
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Ahh, gotcha. I think we can all agree on that  :)
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Well yes, we are all making some assumptions if we aren't attuned and raiding yet.
 
But yes, if I'm trying to organize any activity with 20 people in it, I'm going to assume that everyone is on the ball and focused.
 
I think if you aren't up to the challenge of attunment, then you are not up to the challenge of raiding, based on what I've heard from those who actually are raiding.
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The only relevance to his presence on the bench is that's why he was available to run with us :)
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Attunement does need to change.
 
The fact is, the difficulty of it is so wildly varying that it's near useless to actually judge skill. It can in fact simply be bypassed too through use of various mechanics. Simply get a group of 5 to get to the last boss, and sub a person in/out right before it, kill boss and then your done. Stormtalon, KV's boss, SSM and Skullcano's last boss are all fairly easy, or at least can be done with 4 good players and one scrub.
 
No, Attument is naught more than a timesink. It's even worse when you consider the world boss part. 12 kills on unique bosses that don't spawn very often, and can easily fall outside of casual players playtimes. Even good players, if they only have 2-3 hours a night might well never see a world boss save Malgrave events.
 
1. The spawn timers on these bosses need to be shorttend dramatically, or simply dropped all together in favor of some sort of summoning system.
2. Incentive to redo content that you've already done needs to be increased. Why rerun silvers?
2a. There's no/little value in gear when crafted stuff is just as good, and cheaper in the long run as you can re-roll it for better runes.
2b. The lack of garunteed epics means any other gear drops from instances is worthless. Even attempting to farm Partial Paterns and Eldan Gifts is going to be a chore, and we'll all need TONS of those for the 40man attunement stage (or gloves). Simply put, Partial Patterns should be granted to everyone who runs an instance, and oft-times multiples for dungeons. Bronze a dungeon? 1-3 Partial Patterns, Silver? 5-10, Gold? 10-20. You'll still have to re-run them, but then you won't have to try and fight your guildmates for them, and it becomes much easier to try and attune 40 people for that next stage.
2c. World Bosses have no incentive to kill, the scaling system is cute in that it allows lowbies to kill them... though there's little to no reason for them to even try. No... Why bother killing them when there's no loot? I mean, it's 10-15 minutes to kill some of them and they drop level 15 blues... thanks but it's barely worth selling.
 
They need to shorten, or completely remove at least the world boss part of attunement, and make partial pattern farming much more consistent for 40man progression, if only by giving them to everyone who completes the instance... Incentive is what makes people run instances.	
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I love the attunement.
 
But I cannot deny that my guild would be at least four times as active as it is now, if attunement was scrapped.
 
Besides, why not just let them bash their heads in at X89 in GA. It makes them active, at least.	
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Seem people are still confused on timers.
 
Timers are nothing more than pressure.
 
Everyone can do a test consist of 100 simple additions in 90 minutes.  You make the time limit 30 minutes and people will need to do ~3-4 questions a minute.  Which is still incredibly easy.  If you make the time limit 10 minutes then it gets a little more difficult, 6 seconds a question.  If you make it 5 minutes then it gets really difficult.
 
So I don't see why some people would argue that timers isn't a valid element of how difficult a task is.
 
Without a timer you can take as long as you want in a dungeon.  It could be as ludicrous as waiting 30 minutes for the Soldier's bail out to get back on cooldown again.  or spent a good 20 minutes trying to get the scientist up the side tower so you can summon the rest of the party.  Or a party that refuse to stun or act in conjunction and just bash their face against trash mobs taking 2 minutes on each pull.  As far as I am concerned, none of that is any better than having a timer.
 
What does having a timer do to the dungeon experience?  you have to rush through the dungeon.  You cannot teeter and totter.  You have to optimize your paths - skipping mobs if possible, killing them if unavoidable.
 
The biggest issue with dungeon isn't even the timers itself.  It is that for some dungeons the optional objectives takes far more time than others.  Even for the starting dungeon such as STL.  If you don't get the totem optional objective you can pretty much skip 1/3rd of the dungeon.  While those with Totem and the Mini boss would be best served to clear most of the tunnel.  It gets even worse when you have to count the back and forth travel in SSM that the unlucky will have to contend with.
 
I think having Timer for dungeon medal is a good thing.  They just need to modify the system to be more balanced and consistent.
 
To remove it all together is a horrible decision.  You need to set fire to the player's butts.  You need to push them out of their comfort zones so they improve faster.  Most people need to be dragged screaming and kicking to improve.  They are too static staying in their comfort zones.	
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			Activity level and more casual progression has little to do with the attunement and more to do with crafting and the gearing process.  If BIS pre-raid gear dropped from dungeon bosses (not the medal loot table), you would have people constantly doing the dungeons for upgrades, even those done with attunements (thus increasing the pool of capable players).  I don't understand how allowing people into the raids is going to be some magic cure to activity.  I mean you would just have people logging on for the raid, wiping for 3 hours and then logging off.  People point the finger at attunements, when they should be pointing the finger at crafting/itemization for removing the incentive to continually run adventures/dungeons.	
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Activity level and more casual progression has little to do with the attunement and more to do with crafting and the gearing process.  If BIS pre-raid gear dropped from dungeon bosses (not the medal loot table), you would have people constantly doing the dungeons for upgrades, even those done with attunements (thus increasing the pool of capable players).  I don't understand how allowing people into the raids is going to be some magic cure to activity.  I mean you would just have people logging on for the raid, wiping for 3 hours and then logging off.  People point the finger at attunements, when they should be pointing the finger at crafting/itemization for removing the incentive to continually run adventures/dungeons.
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I can't say I fully agree with that..I have some BiS that come from dungeons and due to Attune 5 once I am done with dungeons I' am done.. I rather take a downgrade than see another dungeon..At least for awhile. Some people are dude to the frustration of not being able to raid because one Attune 5 is stopping them or they have no one to raid with. So both sides just has a huge stop sign in their face and some people are just sick of it..Logging on just for raid night and log off is normal for MMOs when there is lack of content..With what you are saying you are expecting everyone wants to dungeon grind for gear all day..
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
To remove it all together is a horrible decision.  You need to set fire to the player's butts.  You need to push them out of their comfort zones so they improve faster.  Most people need to be dragged screaming and kicking to improve.  They are too static staying in their comfort zones.
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It is no longer a question of whether or not a player can or can't complete the attunements. It's a matter of whether guilds are even willing to muster up a group of 4 other people to carry them through the dungeons. It is far more appealing to just use methods of cheating to rush them through the attunement process. IE people can run dungeons in a group of 5 and sub out 1 person for the last person needing it. 
 
I am the GM of a guild currently raiding, we are 4/6 GA and have raided substantially less than most guilds. It is basically impossible to encourage any of our raiders to run people through dungeons as we don't believe in "cheesing" so we do not sub people out for the final boss and bring in the carry on. Basically it is on the person we are running to do them all via dungeon finder, and then when they are ready we slap together 4 other reluctant people and then haul ass through the dungeons.
 
There is nothing fun about running STL->SSM for the 100th time. The attunement process is not a testament to a players skill, it is a testament to a guilds patience. We don't play a "Hardcore" game for the grind of attunements we are playing it for the raiding. If you believe the attunements prove worth in a raider, you have not been raiding. There are plenty of attuned people who don't know the first thing about this game, while there are currently players who just cannot be bothered with finishing the process but have above and beyond the skill required to play this game.
 
I fear for the partial primal pattern quest, as it is likely that the majority of my raiding guild will quit the game. We are playing to raid 40's and are going to do what it takes, but there are just far too few primal patterns on even pergo to go around. At current rates to fully attune a 40man it takes 1400plat. 1400 plat is what it takes to fully attune a 40man to DS and if you think that is a testament to skill, then I am sorry but you are just mistaken. 
 
Edit: Our reluctance to doing dungeons is not because we just can't be bothered. How many people do you know that have all 300 patterns strictly from running dungeons and not from purchasing them? Because I've got mine.	
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While I don't mind the current attunement process too much personally, I know that I'm a masochist and in the minority.What I've always found strange is that I, and I imagine many others, assumed this game was going to be fairly on par with Vanilla WoW in terms of challenge and tediousness.  Instead it's turned out to be worse, and less fun.  It's little more than a guild destroyer and a time sink except for a great minority or the guilds willing to outright carry people through them.By the time people started raiding in Vanilla WoW, my server (which was a -roleplay- server), had multiple 40 mans  fielded on each faction.  One guild even ran 2 40 mans.  So there were a bunch of guilds and alliances able to field 40 mans, on a server with far less capacity than a WS server is capable of holding.
 
The single roleplay server in WS?  Two guilds, one on each faction, have managed to field 20 man groups into GA.  Finding enough people to even WANT to do attunement is like pulling teeth.  Weeding through those capable of getting through attunement runs off most.  This leaves a tiny, tiny, tiny pool of players that will lead to either even more people quitting the game, or some serious discussions on mergers.What does this all add up to?  Carbine done *cupcake*ed up, regardless of whether or not I personally don't mind the attunement process. 	
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It is no longer a question of whether or not a player can or can't complete the attunements. It's a matter of whether guilds are even willing to muster up a group of 4 other people to carry them through the dungeons. It is far more appealing to just use methods of cheating to rush them through the attunement process. IE people can run dungeons in a group of 5 and sub out 1 person for the last person needing it. 
 
I am the GM of a guild currently raiding, we are 4/6 GA and have raided substantially less than most guilds. It is basically impossible to encourage any of our raiders to run people through dungeons as we don't believe in "cheesing" so we do not sub people out for the final boss and bring in the carry on. Basically it is on the person we are running to do them all via dungeon finder, and then when they are ready we slap together 4 other reluctant people and then haul ass through the dungeons.
 
There is nothing fun about running STL->SSM for the 100th time. The attunement process is not a testament to a players skill, it is a testament to a guilds patience. We don't play a "Hardcore" game for the grind of attunements we are playing it for the raiding. If you believe the attunements prove worth in a raider, you have not been raiding. There are plenty of attuned people who don't know the first thing about this game, while there are currently players who just cannot be bothered with finishing the process but have above and beyond the skill required to play this game.
 
I fear for the partial primal pattern quest, as it is likely that the majority of my raiding guild will quit the game. We are playing to raid 40's and are going to do what it takes, but there are just far too few primal patterns on even pergo to go around. At current rates to fully attune a 40man it takes 1400plat. 1400 plat is what it takes to fully attune a 40man to DS and if you think that is a testament to skill, then I am sorry but you are just mistaken. 
 
Edit: Our reluctance to doing dungeons is not because we just can't be bothered. How many people do you know that have all 300 patterns strictly from running dungeons and not from purchasing them? Because I've got mine.
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Blech, I dislike the current trend of calling crafted gear "broken".
 
Itemization of dropped gear is clearly broken due partly to poor stat balance (AP >> Mainstat >>>>>> all for DPS, etc.) but also because whoever created the items didn't get the guidance they needed to make appropriate items.
 
Crafted gear can be made a little better than intended because the floor for the off stats is too low and it's possible to get more runeslots than intended.
 
 
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i said earlier that the dungeon loot is garbage. and provides no motivation to go there beside attunement.
 
no loot or points = no reason to go there = no players.
 
adventure loot is fine i'd say, the problem was that people already got fed up with purples before the loot change wich was a very unfair decision for those who could run adventures later, iw as lucky and got the DPS claws from malgrave, now they are so rare no sane person wuld ever "farm" them.
Bring epics that are better than adventure loot in dungeons and everything will fix itself.
People will go dungeons, people will get better gear over time, people will get to finish Silver-Runs eventualy because gear gets better. now its ridiculous bullshit system.
 
What do you think why even the BEST geared people in World of Warcraft stuill run throug  Heroic Dungeon every day, BECAUSE THEY GET POINTS from there ONCE A DAY, THERE IS SOMETHING TO GET IN THERE DUNGEON
 
Yeah Wow  blah blah i quit that over a year ago, for different reasons.	
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I can't say I fully agree with that..I have some BiS that come from dungeons and due to Attune 5 once I am done with dungeons I' am done.. I rather take a downgrade than see another dungeon..At least for awhile. Some people are dude to the frustration of not being able to raid because one Attune 5 is stopping them or they have no one to raid with. So both sides just has a huge stop sign in their face and some people are just sick of it..Logging on just for raid night and log off is normal for MMOs when there is lack of content..With what you are saying you are expecting everyone wants to dungeon grind for gear all day..
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While I don't mind the current attunement process too much personally, I know that I'm a masochist and in the minority.
 
What I've always found strange is that I, and I imagine many others, assumed this game was going to be fairly on par with Vanilla WoW in terms of challenge and tediousness.  Instead it's turned out to be worse, and less fun.  It's little more than a guild destroyer and a time sink except for a great minority or the guilds willing to outright carry people through them.
 
By the time people started raiding in Vanilla WoW, my server (which was a -roleplay- server), had multiple 40 mans  fielded on each faction.  One guild even ran 2 40 mans.  So there were a bunch of guilds and alliances able to field 40 mans, on a server with far less capacity than a WS server is capable of holding.
 
The single roleplay server in WS?  Two guilds, one on each faction, have managed to field 20 man groups into GA.  Finding enough people to even WANT to do attunement is like pulling teeth.  Weeding through those capable of getting through attunement runs off most.  This leaves a tiny, tiny, tiny pool of players that will lead to either even more people quitting the game, or some serious discussions on mergers.
 
What does this all add up to?  Carbine done *cupcake*ed up, regardless of whether or not I personally don't mind the attunement process.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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i said earlier that the dungeon loot is garbage. and provides no motivation to go there beside attunement.
 
no loot or points = no reason to go there = no players .
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Again, Wildstar certainly could use more 5-man content and the gearing/itemization is not the only problem, but I don't understand this blame the attunement for all of Wildstar's problems.
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Contrary to popular misinformation; crafted gear is largely not better than gear from world boss / vet content. 
 
Some one please feel free to add in the numbers for other classes; but my Heal spec Med has only one out of twelve slots where a crafted item is BiS; my dps spec has none out of 12. My Tank spec engi has ... none out of 12 slots which have crafted gear as BiS... though i think DPS spec engis might have 2 or 3 / 12 slots with crafted BiS.
 
 
TLDR: the majority of BiS gear is obtained from Vet content. Crafted gear isn't the magical skip all other content panacea that folks like to claim... sure you can get by on > skill and crafted gear; but that doesn't mean that vet / group content gear is devalued. Skill plays a larger role in W* than most other MMO's compared to gear; but If you get to GA with only crafted gear; you'll have to start washing your pillows every week to clean out the all the salt from the tears you shed while crying yourself to sleep :3
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The loot is fine. Players like yourself don't understand the itemization goals of the game. You're trying to play it like WoW - stop.
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{| class="blockquote"
The loot is fine. Players like yourself don't understand the itemization goals of the game. You're trying to play it like WoW - stop.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
TLDR: the majority of BiS gear is obtained from Vet content. Crafted gear isn't the magical skip all other content panacea that folks like to claim... sure you can get by on > skill and crafted gear; but that doesn't mean that vet / group content gear is devalued. Skill plays a larger role in W* than most other MMO's compared to gear; but If you get to GA with only crafted gear; you'll have to start washing your pillows every week to clean out the all the salt from the tears you shed while crying yourself to sleep :3
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cant speak for other classes, but for pve deeps stalkers, the gear worth having, just off the top of my head...weapon: pvp 1800 > boe world drop > epochos 1 claws
shield: boe world drop
head: epochos one > skullcano drop
shoulders: vet adventure drop
chest: subject v rare drop > vet adventure drop
hands: boe > boe > vet adventure drop
legs: adventus > rep reward > skullcano drop
feet: epochos > vet adventure drop
weapon attachment: skullcano drop (from first miniboss, farmable with a 5 dps group) > vet adventure > eg vendor > ssm drop
support system: adventus > ssm drop
gadget: ssm drop (only better on the offchance that you roll 2-4 better runeslots than on your: ) > quest reward (that has the same stats and function as the ssm drop but only 1-3 rune slots)
implant: boe > boe > vet adventuredoing dungeons over and over again is very demotivating when you know for sure that unless a boe world drop happens, only one item thats an improvement can drop from one boss, in one dungeon. this is a major part in me feeling like this dungeon grind is an utter waste of time, in fact i find myself going back to adventures for gear i can actually use and sorta enjoy it, while running the dungeons we already silvered is more of a "god dammit, do i have to?" feeling. they're the most unrewarding experience ive had in a mmo so far. even kv which only took us a few hours gives me the feeling of not wanting to enter again, since its a mix of just turning your brain off enough to not get bothered and unfocused on trash, and not having rng against you.
lets use kv as an example, on the second boss, in the "getting chased by robots phase", healer or tank gets targeted at least once, phase is cakewalk, heavy armor dps gets targeted, meh, they can take it easy and get all the robots positioned, stalker deeps gets targeted, and he have to switch to tank stance so the healer can keep up with the dot, while carefully not running away from the healer, leaving the robots horribly positioned for the next in line, clothie gets targeted, better hope he's the last of the phase or you're 4 manning the rest of the fight, if you survive the giant flustercluck of badly positioned robots. (thats not mentioning bugs like the boss resetting to 100% hp, becoming uninterruptable, get stuck in casting, instagibbing players for no apparant reason, damage effects larger than the telegraphs, etc.)
the rest of the dungeon is a cakewalk, and the second boss is just doing him until you dont get shitty rng. why would i ever want to put myself through that again, unless it had some sort of reward? and then you want people to do it on timed runs, so if you dont get the right rng within a few attempts on second boss, you have to reset the instance and go again.	
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So, just wanted to drop into this thread and let folks know that we've recently put together a fairly substantial report highlighting the community concerns on a number of topics, attunements being one of them.
 
We've (the Community team) sent this on to several of the Directors to help make sure they have a full understanding of what YOUR concerns and complaints are, as well as a number of suggestions for fixes.
Just keep in mind, that doesn't mean everything is going to be magically fixed next patch. These things require discussion and it doesn't mean the dev team will agree with everything, or may have insight into technical limitations we (and you) aren't aware of.
 
Hopefully, we can get something sorted and a response to you guys but I just wanted to let you know it's being looked at.
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For my class, DPS esper, only the implant from the last boss of SC was better than the one I had-- and that was only because it had better slots.
 
Hell most of my gear is BoE drops, beloved rep awards, lucky epics from Blighthaven dailies, two items bought with elder gems, or straight up crafted. Only one came from an adventure and the aforementioned one from a dungeon. The above items, by the way, are considered pre-raid BiS according to many spreadsheets and considering the way I obtained most of them (not doing group content at all) you could argue it's all welfare epics.
 
Hell I finished four silver dungeons for people yesterday and only gained like 15% of my total elder gem bar. These dungeons are utterly unrewarding. 	
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I've pretty much given up on my tank and healer that are both on the silver dungeon part of attunement. Most guilds are either at a phase where they're all attuned and raiding by now, or else they're just starting out and hardly into adventures (very few of those). So if players now throw up a "LF raid guild" post, you'll get replies from guild leaders who do want your class/role, but they want you to get yourself attuned either through pug luck (good luck) or pay for a carry, i.e., they don't want to help new members get attuned. On my server an SM carry is 12 plat and an SC carry would be 7 plat, so basically I'd be paying 19 plat just to get past this part of attunement (I'm sure eventually I'd get a pug silver-capable KV, if not, that's another 5 plat for the carry).
 
Or is Carbine happy that people are buying CREDD to pay for the carries to get raid attuned so they can join raid guilds?
 
Sorry, but this is reality at this point, as people have pointed out earlier in this thread, once a guild is mostly attuned, the other members really just don't care for much more than logging in to raid, and if they are on, they don't care too much to carry new members through attunement unless the leader is barking at them to do it, and most leaders don't want to do that.
 
This will only get worse. The people defending this keeping the silver timer on dungeons crap are the people who think it's some worthwhile barrier to raiding, are really only screwing over two groups: people who want to raid, and people who ditch out of dungeons screwing over the group because it's not going to be silver and they only wanted silver, and yeah, I'm the latter, because I only want silver. I ditched out of a few to get STL silver, and I'm still ditching out of KV and SC's when I realize it's not a silver capable group, and yeah, I'm a tank, so that's pretty bad for the other 4, sorry, I'm only there for silver.
 
I would've quit, but I've decided to role 1 more alt I'm leveling with via pvp until my sub runs out. I hope they change things, because despite what this "muh hardcore game keep the silver timer" crowd thinks, it's just going to kill the game, and people are quitting out of frustration, not just wannabe raiders, but people that want to do the dungeons just to do them without frustrated silver-chasers dropping.	
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Personally I believe that the raid(s) themselves should be the gate rather than putting in a long and convoluted attunement process in order to access them.
 
Blizz learned from this long long time ago so I will hope Carbine does too.	
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Hardcore once you make the raid would have been ideal. Silver dungeons are hardcore and anyone stuck on them will probably unsubscribe. Where as people stuck in a raid will stick it out much longer, and try and gear/improve however there's a guild community working on raids by now.
 
No upgrades for a month and stuck = I would quit as well :)
 
Imo wildstar dug it's own grave for a number of reasons, but the main 2 are attunement and problem I find much worse is I haven't had an upgrade in over a month.	
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And what are the itemization goals in (of, whatever) the game, if I may ask?
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i said earlier that the dungeon loot is garbage. and provides no motivation to go there beside attunement.
 
no loot or points = no reason to go there = no players.
 
adventure loot is fine i'd say, the problem was that people already got fed up with purples before the loot change wich was a very unfair decision for those who could run adventures later, iw as lucky and got the DPS claws from malgrave, now they are so rare no sane person wuld ever "farm" them.
Bring epics that are better than adventure loot in dungeons and everything will fix itself.
People will go dungeons, people will get better gear over time, people will get to finish Silver-Runs eventualy because gear gets better. now its ridiculous bullshit system.
 
What do you think why even the BEST geared people in World of Warcraft stuill run throug  Heroic Dungeon every day, BECAUSE THEY GET POINTS from there ONCE A DAY, THERE IS SOMETHING TO GET IN THERE DUNGEON
 
Yeah Wow  blah blah i quit that over a year ago, for different reasons.
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Personally I believe that the raid(s) themselves should be the gate rather than putting in a long and convoluted attunement process in order to access them.
 
Blizz learned from this long long time ago so I will hope Carbine does too.
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Do not be mistaken: attunement exists because they need to make the content last longer, and that means adding various obstacles to overcome for the players. Some raiders like to believe that it's there to 'prepare' you for the raids. Because clearly those who want to raid would never ever run the content made for them if you don't force them to. This is the logic of the lazy: I don't want to deal with training raiding recruits, so I pretend an arbitrary obstacle before they can raid will teach them everything they need. But it won't, because each raid has its own mechanics. And even if you could make the case of it 'teaching' the players about how to 'play'...well, the game had 50 levels and a tutorial to teach that. Attunement is nto better at teaching people how to raid than the raid itself. It's just there to pad out content until they add another raid.
 
However, I think that a greater problem is that certain content is not rewarding enough (there's something we could say about 'playing the content' being its own goal, but I won't go there). Why waste hours learning a specific piece of content and clearing it if all I'm going to get from it is a pat on the back and some unrewarding piece of gear? I would rather go ahead and do the content that actually improves my character. As far as I could tell, the attunement process doesn't even do that. You don't get gear that is significantly better than what you probably have already/bought in the AH.	
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There are so many valid viewpoints in this thread that I can't really quote them all.
 
Suffice it to say this: There isn't anything meaningful to do PvE wise while getting attuned. This leads to me pretty much exclusively PvP'ing on most nights, and we all know how great the PvP system in this game is right now. Dailys suck and fail to provide a meaningful progression experience. If my guild isn't running silvers, I'm not running silvers. 
 
The middle of the road guilds absolutely are suffering the most. This is the majority of guilds in this game I feel, and my guild falls into this category. Most of us are experienced raiders from the past and are eager to do the content here, but many of our members, for whatever reason, cannot log in every night and grind out these dungeons. We're a 2 night a week guild. You do the math of how much time someone like me spends twiddling their thumbs. (I log in and play nightly.) Maybe I should find a guild more suited to my play-style of nearly every night, BUT, I don't want to leave my guild behind BECAUSE WE ARE TIGHT KNIT AND REAL FRIENDS. Why doesn't this game encourage guilds like this? I don't value loot over friends or progression over friends, but come on Carbine, throw me a bone. I've already been tempted with leaving to a more progression oriented guild, but I don't want to screw these people over. I'm not a bullshit social climber.
 
Timers aren't a good metric for whether or not someone is ready to raid. Period. I don't know why people keep pretending they are. Maybe you guys poopsock every raid you do, but I don't. I never have, and yeah, "BACK IN THE DAY" just like every other shmuck on this forum I was "a progression raider" in TBC. Big whoop: no one cares. We didn't have or need timers then. We don't need them now.
 
Ildur, Mr Dwarf, has an observation that no one here seems to talk about but I immediately picked up on the moment I saw the "Reach Beloved with X Faction" step of the process. It is nothing more than a way for them to gate content and buy themselves more time. Given that most people during new MMO releases *cupcake* up a storm about not having end game I can understand their reasoning behind wanting to put in some kind of gating mechanic. I mean, I'm even inclined to side with them on this. The PROBLEM: IS HOW THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT GATE. The gate isn't fun, it isn't rewarding outside of itself (via gear, etc), and it is causing inter-personal drama and strife. The community doesn't enjoy it. 
 
There isn't anything wrong with attunements. Really, guys, there isn't. They aren't evil in and of themselves. I think a lot of people realize this, and Carbine obviously thinks this way too. The issue is that Carbine has missed the mark on providing an attunement process that accommodates the varying playstyles and social situation of people and they have missed the mark on providing one that is fun and feels rewarding as more than a pure means to an end. 
 
Make attunement fun and free of strife and give us more fun, meaningful ways to play while going through that process. And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD: FIX PVP.
 
My sub runs out in 2 days. Despite the issues I have with the game I don't -WANT- to quit. I doubt I will re-sub given the current state of the game, and I hope it will get fixed in time. I will certainly be keeping tabs.	
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The two guys ive grown closest to in this game canceled their subs tonight as our guild suffered its 3rd "mass exodus" of players /gquit 'ing and moving to other guilds.
 
Its a cycle of losing people that we invest time into getting them attuned but they dont have the patience to wait for enough of the other people to get attuned to raid, so they move to another guild where they hope they can raid sooner. There is a group of people in the game that can do the current attunement ( I have 2 attuned characters and am working on my 3rd) and another group that just cant do it, either because they lack the talent or because they lack the determination to put the effort and time in to learn the encounters.
 
At the end of the day, my 2 friends that ended their subs only wanted to raid. They put the work in and got their attunement and put more time in trying to help the other people get theirs, only to see most of them move on and with that my friends ability to raid if they stay in this guild. They decided to just move on to another game and to stop wasting their time here with this attunement process.
 
I dont blame them but i will miss them and my enjoyment of the game has lessened as a result.
 
This attunement process is destroying the game.
 
Carbine, you dont have months to address this issue if you want to retain much of any player base at all.	
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Was this post supposed to imply that *most* of the game population is 50 and eager to raid?  Because you're a total schmuck if you think that.
 
And as for this:  
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Let the players spend their time playing what they want, not playing what they feel forced to, maybe is not too late.
 
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The two guys ive grown closest to in this game canceled their subs tonight as our guild suffered its 3rd "mass exodus" of players /gquit 'ing and moving to other guilds.
 
Its a cycle of losing people that we invest time into getting them attuned but they dont have the patience to wait for enough of the other people to get attuned to raid, so they move to another guild where they hope they can raid sooner. There is a group of people in the game that can do the current attunement ( I have 2 attuned characters and am working on my 3rd) and another group that just cant do it, either because they lack the talent or because they lack the determination to put the effort and time in to learn the encounters.
 
At the end of the day, my 2 friends that ended their subs only wanted to raid. They put the work in and got their attunement and put more time in trying to help the other people get theirs, only to see most of them move on and with that my friends ability to raid if they stay in this guild. They decided to just move on to another game and to stop wasting their time here with this attunement process.
 
I dont blame them but i will miss them and my enjoyment of the game has lessened as a result.
 
This attunement process is destroying the game.
 
Carbine, you dont have months to address this issue if you want to retain much of any player base at all.
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