126204-global-lfg-channel-non-player-controlled-page-3

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I think player run "public-channels" are important for roleplayers, raiders and various other communities. Circles are limited in their amounts of spots...
 
Good luck being in a guild, a circle, or anything else that involves other people, if you need it moderated by carbine and not people.
 
You obviously have never run a community before, or don't have the knowledge on how to.
 
Also, protip, carbine GM's are people and can powertrip too :)
 
I honestly don't know if you're trolling or you've never played an mmo or been in any public run society before...	
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You can't say the power has already been abused. It's not about knowing "every fact there is", you know nothing at all about the situation.
 
But yes, let's discuss the whole concept of player made LFG channels in the abstract. Can you not come up with a scenario in which it would be proper to silence someone in LFG? Now this is NOT what was happening the case OP mentioned because I'm trying to do my best to keep this a discussion about the principle and not the situation, but I can certainly think of one. What if every time a new player showed up in LFG chat, there was one person who would constantly berate them, call them noobs, and tell them they should just quit the game? Now sure, you could say everyone should just mute the player, but that wouldn't be good for the new players who have no idea what they are getting into. And you can't really put in the new player FAQ "join /lfg and make sure you block player [xyz]". By far, the most effective way of dealing with a player who is doing something like that is to remove him from the channel. You can't really appeal to Carbine to remove him from a player made channel, so that's why players are given rights to control it.
 
So then, because the potential of this situation arises, should the player just avoid creating the LFG channel alltogether since Carbine doesn't have one? Well that doesn't seem like a good option either. There's a reason this channel has been created on all servers.
 
The truth is, there are instances when people's behavior means they have lost the right to participate. Is OP an example of that? Not up to us to decide in this thread. But just like we cannot make a judgement about OP in this thread, we can also not make a judgement about those who banned him.
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I think player run "public-channels" are important for roleplayers, raiders and various other communities. Circles are limited in their amounts of spots...
 
Good luck being in a guild, a circle, or anything else that involves other people, if you need it moderated by carbine and not people.
 
You obviously have never run a community before, or don't have the knowledge on how to.
 
Also, protip, carbine GM's are people and can powertrip too :)
 
I honestly don't know if you're trolling or you've never played an mmo or been in any public run society before...
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Who are you to decide what "new players" should put up with? Are you their parents? their boss? No sir...you are not and henceforth you shall not decide what those "new players" shall be exposed too. THAT is the job of Carbine! Not you Sir or ANY other player NOT employed by Carbine! You choose to mute him and thats fine..thats on you. But you shall NOT decide what I shall mute sir!
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I am a part of the community, and as such I feel a responsibility to those entering the community to make their experience as welcome and inviting as possible. But you would rather have new players to the community verbally assaulted upon entry rather than taking a justified action against someone who would belittle them for his own selfish gratification (again, this is NOT about OP, who has not, not my knowledge, done these things, but the hypothetical person we've constructed for the sake of discussion). Our value systems are clearly different, as I value the right of people to not be abused over the right of everyone to participate.
 
 
 
First, we don't have a criteria of when a channel becomes "public" enough that it shouldn't be moderated, so you need to define that. But even if we did, you haven't supported the idea that it "shall not" be moderated other than applying your own values, which places the right of everyone to participate over right the community has to a peaceful, respectful environment.
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Maybe there is a bit of nitpicking about the channel being public or not.
 
It was player created. Players moderate it. Besides those points, the channel is advertised as being the place to get groups going, everyone is encouraged to join it. Check any new player thread or post (here or reddit). There are no conditions to enter the channel by the owners. No password to enter was set by the owners. No code of conduct (besides the ones laid out by Carbine for the game) expressed by the owners. No rules saying what is the "punishment" to breaking the supposed rules.
 
So yeah, it's technically a private channel...	
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Maybe there is a bit of nitpicking about the channel being public or not.
 
It was player created. Players moderate it. Besides those points, the channel is advertised as being the place to get groups going, everyone is encouraged to join it. Check any new player thread or post (here or reddit). There are no conditions to enter the channel by the owners. No password to enter was set by the owners. No code of conduct (besides the ones laid out by Carbine for the game) expressed by the owners. No rules saying what is the "punishment" to breaking the supposed rules.
 
So yeah, it's technically a private channel...
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			Was being sarcastic with my last comment ;)	
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Was being sarcastic with my last comment ;)
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Again...WE DO NOT talk about the OP....I talk about the "player generated and moderated "public" channel"..not the OP..let us make that clear!
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one funny thing..I'm from Europe..and as I see little respons from those who disagree with me on this topic..hmm why?--->..americans are sleeping now.--->.THAT concludes: Most of those who dont mind player moderation are americans;) Hmm does this tell us anything? ;)
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Maybe there is a bit of nitpicking about the channel being public or not.
 
It was player created. Players moderate it. Besides those points, the channel is advertised as being the place to get groups going, everyone is encouraged to join it. Check any new player thread or post (here or reddit). There are no conditions to enter the channel by the owners. No password to enter was set by the owners. No code of conduct (besides the ones laid out by Carbine for the game) expressed by the owners. No rules saying what is the "punishment" to breaking the supposed rules.
 
So yeah, it's technically a private channel...
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Yes, I do believe there is a community responsibility to protect the weak and vulnerable. 
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I'm only re-iterating that point to make it clear that my example is not trying to take a shot at OP.
 
 
 
I'm not sure why you are putting "feelings" in quotes, since I didn't even use that word. I also didn't use the word "education".
 
Yes, I do believe there is a community responsibility to protect the weak and vulnerable. That is obviously more important in real life than it is here in game, but when new players come in who don't have a firm footing on what's going on, then yes- they are in a pretty vulnerable position, and if they are verbally abused, many will just leave and not come back. How many complaints have we heard about "elitist" players with "toxic" attitudes? So yes, if I had the power to silence those kinds of players and prevent new players from being subject to that behavior, I would absolutely use it. I have that power in my circle, and my GM has that power in our guild.
 
I don't have that power over a player created channel, but someone does, and it isn't Carbine. It is right and reasonable for abusive people to be silenced by moderation for the good of the community. That is where my perspective comes from that not all banning from a player created channel is inherently an abuse of power (though I'm not saying it definitively isn't- I'm saying you need more info to judge)
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My opinion: if it's player created then it's player moderated.
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What? I find that difficult to read. Can someone translate please. Are you saying you agree with the kick or not?
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My opinion: if it's player created then it's player moderated.
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A little nit picking, definitely, and I'll admit it's by me. The point is, that we have player created channels and there is not distinction. I don't think ANYONE would claim me kicking people out of my "raid lead" channel that officers use to discuss loot, roles, etc. is an abuse of power. But some are claiming that the nature of the LFG channel makes it so that using those tools is inherently abusive and I disagree. But if you ARE going to argue that it's abusive to moderate LFG by not abusive to moderate my "raid lead" channel, then you have to come up with a clear distinction between the two as to when moderation is not allowed. Is it when you publicly advertise a channcel? Is it when it gets over a certain number of people?
 
My opinion: if it's player created then it's player moderated.
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I strongly disagree with your way of protecting the "weak and vulnerable" Its almost as if you make them into kids that cant deside what they like or like not....
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Is there a doubt that the channel in question is percieved (sorry if i spelled that wrong) as a public channel? And yes..we all know it is player generated and it has been at least once "moderated";)
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Yes..yasfan put its nicely and to the point!!! 
 
REPORT toxic and abusive players...and let Carbine pass judgement.
 
If players starts doing this thing we will have total anarchy..or alternatively dictatorship by the non-rightfull owners "of the house"....	
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REPORT toxic and abusive players...and let Carbine pass judgement.
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You are right sir...my agreement with a kick or not was NOT in that post:) For that you will have to read much more sir:)
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Because someone might enjoy being verbally assaulted just for talking in /LFG (that was the example I gave)? I would not feel like a kid of someone prevented me from being verbally assaulted like that.
 
I would find it VERY offensive and patronizing tbo!
 
Plenty. Especially earlier in the games cycle. But the player I described would certainly fit that description.
 
maybe so...but I have not seen it...comparred to WOW e.g...there it is alot..but personally it certainly dont bother me...i'm an adult..i can take it and see it as noice
 
Well, then you and I are far different. I'd far rather not experience verbal abuse and I wouldn't ever think that someone being banned for doing such is telling me "what I should like or dislike".
 
No you will certainly not get banned for it. But does that make it right to do? (you dont get banned for being patronizing;) )
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I can't, it is incredibly difficult with the way you word things. It is difficult to understand =/ I am European, does my opinion not matter?
 
No...I'm not a teacher so I cant help you;)
 
Oh please, Carbine don't punish people. I have reported several for the constant abuse I get in PVP's (apparently people get REALLY angry when against a healer/eng tank combo in arena) but nothing has been done. I got constant abuse from someone, on alts and etc (was using the ignore system) because of PVP, and nothing was done. How will having a global channel, more for carbine to police, make a slight bit of difference? It will not. 
 
I barely use the LFG/Global channels. I can find groups with friends I have made, guildies, and LFG tool. I don't even see a need for it, if I can get groups to play, then anyone can. 
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Because someone might enjoy being verbally assaulted just for talking in /LFG (that was the example I gave)? I would not feel like a kid of someone prevented me from being verbally assaulted like that.
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What can Carbine do about what someone does in a player created channel?
 
Carbine have logs...they can do what THEY feel is right to do...they own the game, and i trust their judgement when it comes to banning etc..
 
Slippery slope. One banning does not equal total anarchy or dictatorship by non-rightful owners "of the house".
 
As said..we are not discussing ONE banning...again..we are discussing the "concept"
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Right, but really Carbine is not going to get involved in what is said in a channel that is player created.
 
The "concept" that I'M discussing is whether one banning is inherently abusive as you've stated. I'm saying it's not, and you are saying it is.	
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Sly, we all have our opinions, and it's fine to disagree. Let me try from another angle.
 
I once reported a player and the reply from carbine was: thanks for the report. We will watch the player in question to see if any measures against him are warranted.
 
So take this imaginary player, who you think has inappropriate attitudes towards the community. I would guess, by the reply that I got, that if enough players thought like you, you could all report him. It takes less than 2min. Now, after all those reports, two things might happen. Carbine reviews the reports and history, agrees with you all and take measures against such player. Or, after all the reviewing, Carbine does not agree with you all, and the player keeps playing. That does not necessarily mean Carbine is wrong, like someone is bound to say...
 
Why don't you trust Carbine to do its job? Help Carbine help you!	
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So everyone can get off of their high horses, because said player is back in LFG for now. Hopefully, there will be less general dumb chatter occuring and everything will be peachy.
 
As for people saying that you can't be allowed to moderate a public channel, the lfg is a private channel (you join it). If the moderate doesn't want someone in the channel because they are either not good in a group (don't perform group functions because they don't want to) or because they cause constant inane drivel in their chat channel, thats on them. And you can't just ignore, because then you get a constant drivel of other people talking to that one person who don't yet have them on ignore. 
 
Reputations are earned, good or bad. There is a not so small part of the community which was actively happy to have lfg be more on top and less inane drivel, and a larger number that is apathetic. I doubt that many felt it was truly unfair, and no one really knows that either.	
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I can't, it is incredibly difficult with the way you word things. It is difficult to understand =/ I am European, does my opinion not matter?
 
No...I'm not a teacher so I cant help you;)
 
Oh please, Carbine don't punish people. I have reported several for the constant abuse I get in PVP's (apparently people get REALLY angry when against a healer/eng tank combo in arena) but nothing has been done. I got constant abuse from someone, on alts and etc (was using the ignore system) because of PVP, and nothing was done. How will having a global channel, more for carbine to police, make a slight bit of difference? It will not. 
 
I barely use the LFG/Global channels. I can find groups with friends I have made, guildies, and LFG tool. I don't even see a need for it, if I can get groups to play, then anyone can. 
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Oh please, Carbine don't punish people. I have reported several for the constant abuse I get in PVP's (apparently people get REALLY angry when against a healer/eng tank combo in arena) but nothing has been done. I got constant abuse from someone, on alts and etc (was using the ignore system) because of PVP, and nothing was done. How will having a global channel, more for carbine to police, make a slight bit of difference? It will not. 
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Why don't you trust Carbine to do its job? Help Carbine help you!
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Right, but really Carbine is not going to get involved in what is said in a channel that is player created.
 
The "concept" that I'M discussing is whether one banning is inherently abusive as you've stated. I'm saying it's not, and you are saying it is.
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Right, but really Carbine is not going to get involved in what is said in a channel that is player created.
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Uh... what? Can you refer me to the place in the ToS that says "none of our rules apply in player-created channels"?
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No need to be rude. I would pull back that attitude, if you want your opinion to still be validated. It was just a simple question, that if you could rephrase what you said into a manner that is easier to understand. As it stands, from what I read, your opinion and over the top descriptions keep changing.
 
I will answer in the same manner as i recieved the question sir! The others dont have problems understanding my opinion..and I do not have time to give you a personal explanation atm sorry.
 
Carbine do have logs, as does a lot of games, but MMOs do not get policed the way they used to. Its a fact. They just say, use the ignore system. So use it, oh not account wide? Thats ok, I will just keep ignoring every alt.
 
 
What are you even talking about?! It is like you change your mind, your opinion, and what you are talking about every 5 minutes. Whats next, how turtles are the cause of pollution? 
 
Shall we play more games? I'm not sure you would like them;)
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I dont think we will get any further tbo. We disagree strongly about what a player can do and cannot do. I can assure you that Carbine WILL take action if the offender is in any way shape or form is placing a real life death threat at someone...or something similar. And they have logs from any chat ingame..private or not. 
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As much as it pains me, carbine will get involved if they have to. The point with the player created one, if someone is being a tool, they can be kicked. No need to get Carbine in and wait for days for a response.
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No need to be rude. I would pull back that attitude, if you want your opinion to still be validated. It was just a simple question, that if you could rephrase what you said into a manner that is easier to understand. As it stands, from what I read, your opinion and over the top descriptions keep changing.
 
I will answer in the same manner as i recieved the question sir! The others dont have problems understanding my opinion..and I do not have time to give you a personal explanation atm sorry.
 
Carbine do have logs, as does a lot of games, but MMOs do not get policed the way they used to. Its a fact. They just say, use the ignore system. So use it, oh not account wide? Thats ok, I will just keep ignoring every alt.
 
 
What are you even talking about?! It is like you change your mind, your opinion, and what you are talking about every 5 minutes. Whats next, how turtles are the cause of pollution? 
 
Shall we play more games? I'm not sure you would like them;)
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quite similar to lynch mobs is that not? ;) take the "law" into their own hands?
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No it is not. IT IS A CHAT. PEOPLE TALKING. Not a *cupcake*ing crime, not robbing a bloody bank. IT IS JUST PEOPLE TALKING. Jesus, quit being over dramatic ¬_¬
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But people do, hint why they keep questioning. Again, don't be rude.
 
What are you even talking about? I honestly question your intentions on this thread...
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OK, "real life death threat" is WAY beyond anything we've discussed thus far. I think we can all agree that that would be a time we'd expect Carbine to take action.
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And I sir.... question yours....
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you are right it is not anything AS dramatic..but the similarity about taking the law into their own hands applies here also. We have discussed it or days...players "policing" some are ok with it..others like myself dislike it strongly!
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This requires actual broad community support for the "shunning" or it fails, instead of succeeding based on the moderation powers of a small number of people currently acting as self-appointed "community leaders" without any actual community-wide backing. I look forward to watching that same small group of people develop their shun list, threatening anyone who doesn't comply with addition to the shun list, and then trying to actually implement the aforementioned shunnings without moderation powers.
 
Best of luck with that.  :lol:
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quite similar to lynch mobs is that not? ;) take the "law" into their own hands?
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Depends.  The custom channel was absolutely miserable for a couple weeks.  The statements made were controversial enough to create discord but not a violation of the ToS.  In other words, nothing that Carbine would action over.
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Look, I'll just try to be clear about where I stand. I have some opinions about the OP and the situation, but we aren't discussing that. It's tough to discuss in the abstract, and trying to do that is frustrating me, but that's the best we have here.
 
So to be clear:
-I think there are valid reasons to ban people to make a chat channel a better resource and more valuable for the community.
-I think Carbine shouldn't shoulder the burden of trying to make sure that player created channels are fulfilling their purpose by removing people who are hindering that purpose.
-If a channel is popular enough that it becomes a "must have", Carbine should take the burden off the players to manage it by creating an official channel.
 
If you fundamentally disagree with my first point above, then we just are going to have to agree to disagree. We have different ideas of what is right and wrong, and that's cool, but we are never going to agree. And that's fine. Right now, with the way the game is designed (that players CAN moderate the chat channel), Carbine supports my view, but it may not always be that way.	
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Look, I'll just try to be clear about where I stand. I have some opinions about the OP and the situation, but we aren't discussing that. It's tough to discuss in the abstract, and trying to do that is frustrating me, but that's the best we have here.
 
So to be clear:
-I think there are valid reasons to ban people to make a chat channel a better resource and more valuable for the community.
-I think Carbine shouldn't shoulder the burden of trying to make sure that player created channels are fulfilling their purpose by removing people who are hindering that purpose.
-If a channel is popular enough that it becomes a "must have", Carbine should take the burden off the players to manage it by creating an official channel.
 
If you fundamentally disagree with my first point above, then we just are going to have to agree to disagree. We have different ideas of what is right and wrong, and that's cool, but we are never going to agree. And that's fine. Right now, with the way the game is designed (that players CAN moderate the chat channel), Carbine supports my view, but it may not always be that way.
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And in my opinion, you're quite right to wonder about his intentions when he's continually claiming he cannot understand what you mean. I think you've been pretty straightforward and he's trying to provoke an inflammatory response, myself. But that's just a guess as to his motives on my part.
 
Congratulations on refraining from taking the bait.
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Simply because a player-made channel is open to the public (not password protected), the players have no right to moderate it? That is completely inconsistent with any real world application at all. If someone owns a mall and I lease space in the mall, which I open to the public, I still have the right to kick people out of my store unless I specifically contract that right away (given compliance with federal/state laws such as the ADA and Title VII). Thus, unless the EULA or TOS specifically state that players have no right to moderate channels open to the public, yeah, well, that just, like, your opinion man. Further since carbine doesn't and shouldn't have to moderate all public, player-created channels, it falls on players to remove toxic elements.
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Anyone who creates a public channel should only have the ability to put undesirables on ignore. In no way should they be allowed to remove someone from the channel completely just because they don't like them. Act like an adult and not a childish dictator, put them on ignore and move on.
And you're right, it is my opinion.
I hope Carbine removes the channel and institutes their own LFG channel. That's the way it should have been to begin with. Then all this petty behavior could be avoided.
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In no way should they be allowed to remove someone from the channel completely just because they don't like them. 
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Look, I'll just try to be clear about where I stand. I have some opinions about the OP and the situation, but we aren't discussing that. It's tough to discuss in the abstract, and trying to do that is frustrating me, but that's the best we have here.
 
So to be clear:
-I think there are valid reasons to ban people to make a chat channel a better resource and more valuable for the community.
-I think Carbine shouldn't shoulder the burden of trying to make sure that player created channels are fulfilling their purpose by removing people who are hindering that purpose.
-If a channel is popular enough that it becomes a "must have", Carbine should take the burden off the players to manage it by creating an official channel.
 
If you fundamentally disagree with my first point above, then we just are going to have to agree to disagree. We have different ideas of what is right and wrong, and that's cool, but we are never going to agree. And that's fine. Right now, with the way the game is designed (that players CAN moderate the chat channel), Carbine supports my view, but it may not always be that way.
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Because personal dislike is certainly the only reason you might hypothetically remove a person from a channel. It couldn't possibly be for another reason, say a hypothetical person is disruptive, abusive, trolling, or spamming. Meanwhile its totally okay to assume the worst about the people moderating (because they can only be childish dictators and not people acting reasonably if not perhaps misguidedly to try and make the community better). 
 
Also you keep using that public word... but its not a public channel. Its a private channel that is open to the public. 
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Also you keep using that public word... but its not a public channel. Its a private channel that is open to the public. 
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And to be honest, I'm kind of tired of watching their poor decision-making skills trash an otherwise excellent game engine and setting.
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I don't often agree with you yasfan, but stuff like this is why I totally respect you. 
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And being used even in this very thread to justify opposing an actual public channel because if one was available, the private channel would no longer be the only show in town and lose its appeal.
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The only people I see opposing a Carbine created global channel are those that don't want to seen another Barrens Chat. 
 
I don't oppose it, I just have doubts that it'll be all that attractive considering the mess that had to be dealt with.  I reserve the right to be wrong, I have been in the past, I will be in the future. :lol:
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I loved barrens chat:) So many good discussions there..but yes..none of them had to do with the game itself;) and alot of smack talk or whatever they call it...but i like that too. it only adds to diversity:)
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The only people I see opposing a Carbine created global channel are those that don't want to seen another Barrens Chat. 
 
I don't oppose it, I just have doubts that it'll be all that attractive considering the mess that had to be dealt with.  I reserve the right to be wrong, I have been in the past, I will be in the future. :lol:
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In my experience, it's already become that a decent amount of the time.
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			I think there should be a global public LFG channel but the current one is fine with me.  It's private and there have been certain people that have been blacklisted and for a good reason.  I'm not going to read the 16+ pages, skimmed it but I know one person that starts with a T that is warrented due to the constant trolling and his/her attitude.  	
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This irrational fear that Global channels will "become Barrens chat" is silly. 
 
1) Off topic discussion does not automatically make it "Barrens chat".
2) Sometimes off topic discussions are interesting and fun.
3) Trolls will be trolls, and you can deal with them by ignoring them either with the chat command or, you know, not responding to them.
4) Global channels are a great way for people in different guilds to get to know each other and forge friendships. I see this kind of interaction FAR MORE than I see "Barrens chat"
 
And most importantly.... please stop referring to off-topic discussions as Barrens chat. WOW didn't invent the internet.	
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I'd feel more comfortable with a Carbine global chat channel if the chat box (LUA or whatever) didn't frequently and randomly lose all subscribed chat channel settings between the various tabs, randomly reassign circle channel order, etc.
 
So, sure, get a channel going.  Fix the tech though please.
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I'd feel more comfortable with a Carbine global chat channel if the chat box (LUA or whatever) didn't frequently and randomly lose all subscribed chat channel settings between the various tabs, randomly reassign circle channel order, etc.
 
So, sure, get a channel going.  Fix the tech though please.	
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This irrational fear that Global channels will "become Barrens chat" is silly. 
 
1) Off topic discussion does not automatically make it "Barrens chat".
2) Sometimes off topic discussions are interesting and fun.
3) Trolls will be trolls, and you can deal with them by ignoring them either with the chat command or, you know, not responding to them.
4) Global channels are a great way for people in different guilds to get to know each other and forge friendships. I see this kind of interaction FAR MORE than I see "Barrens chat"
 
And most importantly.... please stop referring to off-topic discussions as Barrens chat. WOW didn't invent the internet.
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			 :blink: I thought WoW invented RPGs.	
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Hi folks,
 
Thank you for all your feedback on this. The on-topic discussion has run its course and as such I'm locking it. 
 
- Team WildStar 	
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