122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-2

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reason 1.
because raid gear doesn't just function in raids.  This argument is often trotted out when it comes to raid vs everything else gearing and really, it is an invalid argument as long as raid gear also functions at its full strength in dungeons, shiphands, open world events, questing etc. It is not just the best gear you can get for raiding - it is the best gear you can get for everything outside PVP and sometimes for PVP as well.
 
reason 2.
character progression is important to a lot people who play RPG's and by extension, MMORPG's. it just is. Characters progressing and growing stronger is a core part of the gameplay.
 
having said that, I think the OP raises some good points though I don't agree that you should be able to get "raid gear" just doing vet ship hands. However, more challenging solo/small group content with a clearer gear progression with a narrower gear gap between raider/non raider gear wouldn't be game breaking would it? Alternative types of progression could also be thrown in there, with cool rewards like mounts and costumes. I may be biased though - extra 20 assault power? meh couldn't be bothered. shiny mount or toy? where are the hoops I need to jump through them now!
 
Solo instances can be very challenging and unlike raids, no one else can carry you. The Warlock green fire quest from WoW is a good example I think, it was very challenging and required you to know the class inside out and play it very well.
 
I think Rift had a good gear progression system, before they sold out with free2play and lock boxes that is. Most BIS gear came from raiding but some slots were filled with BIS gear from open world content ( your essences) and two slots (cape and seal) were filled with BIS gear from crafting, every craft could craft something for one or two of the classes that was BIS.
 
On a slightly related note it always amuses me when people assert that no one would raid if you could get gear just as good through other methods. you are essentially saying that raiding isn't fun and enjoyable so people need to be forced to do it.
 
 
signed.
A retired raider.
 
.... although that spellslinger raid set is tempting.. just for the look of that hat...
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That's fine, and I don't see anything wrong with adding more hard solo content.  But I'm not going to fool myself into believing that my harder solo content puts me on par with harder raid content.
 
Who ever said anything about ego when we said it could kill raiding?  They aren't doing it because "there's nothing else to do", they are doing it because that's the type of content they want to do, but on the same token if they can get the same exact rewards for less effort they just might not see the point of working/playing harder.  That's human nature, and yea the Devs and what not have to take that into account when they make their content.  Don't believe me?  Go to a work place where people are paid the same regardless of how hard they are working, the people that are usually hard workers will eventually give up, and then you will have crappy work/products being put out there because the hard workers don't see their efforts being rewarded properly.
 
So ask for more challenging content, no problem with that.  But it's the "I deserve raid gear!!!" mentality that's ruining your point.
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I am sorry but gear progression does not equal character progression. You can progress your character without progressing your gear. If you fail to see the difference it is probably because you play the game for the gear, which is fine, but then you must understand that your enjoyment of the game will be limited to gear.
 
Gear progression is dependent on the use of said gear, namely Raid gear is stronger because everything in a raid is stronger since it is tuned for 20 people. Sure you could argue that you could increase the difficulty of solo bosses by increasing dmg and hp and therefore increasing the need of higher end gear for solo content. However, this is not increasing the difficulty it is just inflating it. If you inflate the difficulty by pumping numbers up you create imbalance in the game by artificially furthering the gear gap; this makes some content inaccessible (due to lack of inflated gear) or irrelevant (gear overrides mechanics and anything becomes soloable). There are also group mechanics that cannot have a solo equivalent.
 
Lack of raid gear is not keeping anyone from game content. You can partake in all of the game content without raid gear (raids included). What raid gear does is it facilitates completing the current raid and it prepares people for the next raid content. The same way that dungeon gear facilitates completing the dungeon and it prepares people for the next dungeon content.	
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Which would still require less effort than raid content, and as such shouldn't be rewarded with equal rewards to raid content.  
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On a slightly related note it always amuses me when people assert that no one would raid if you could get gear just as good through other methods. you are essentially saying that raiding isn't fun and enjoyable so people need to be forced to do it.
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other than time and frustrations of putting large groups of people together. there is no reason solo content cant be just as challenging as raid content and thus deserving of the same quality of gear.  if they implemented challenging solo content and the reward was nothing why bother the same way raid content with no reward and people wouldnt both with that either.  I am just asking for equality in play styles for PVP, Raids, and solo content,  all just as challenging, all just as rewarding.
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I am sorry but gear progression does not equal character progression. You can progress your character without progressing your gear. If you fail to see the difference it is probably because you play the game for the gear, which is fine, but then you must understand that your enjoyment of the game will be limited to gear.
 
Gear progression is dependent on the use of said gear, namely Raid gear is stronger because everything in a raid is stronger since it is tuned for 20 people. Sure you could argue that you could increase the difficulty of solo bosses by increasing dmg and hp and therefore increasing the need of higher end gear for solo content. However, this is not increasing the difficulty it is just inflating it. If you inflate the difficulty by pumping numbers up you create imbalance in the game by artificially furthering the gear gap; this makes some content inaccessible (due to lack of inflated gear) or irrelevant (gear overrides mechanics and anything becomes soloable). There are also group mechanics that cannot have a solo equivalent.
 
Lack of raid gear is not keeping anyone from game content. You can partake in all of the game content without raid gear (raids included). What raid gear does is it facilitates completing the current raid and it prepares people for the next raid content. The same way that dungeon gear facilitates completing the dungeon and it prepares people for the next dungeon content.
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It will hurt all tiers of raiding, because there will be less people seeking to raid, and it starts to trickle up... no one running PURs because you can get the same gear solo with less time invested, leads to less casual raiders gearing up and seeking more, which turns into less mid-tier raiders biding their time for a spot in the top end, and that means less talent from top-end guilds to choose from. It will collapse from to bottom up, with casual raiders and mid-level suffering from number deficiencies before the high end players see them, but it's only a matter of time before everyone is begging for warm bodies to fill a raid enough to even zone into an instance.
 
Raiding would still exist, but the participation would drop dramatically. Is it because raiding in and of itself is unpleasant? Nope... it's just human nature to take the path of least resistance. Having to schedule life around raid times vs being able to log in when you want. Hoping 19 others don't screw up vs only relying on yourself. It might be the most fun you have, but if the effort isn't worth it (rewards are the same as solo, no unique appearances, nothing special about them) then why go through the effort?
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Easily solved. The equally rewarding gear for equally challenging solo content can be difficulty matched to cause approximately the same number of wipes during the learning curve and time-gated to prevent it from being farmed repeatedly.
 
As for "hoping 19 others don't screw up", don't make me laugh. I spent this morning watching a raid group take down Maelstrom Authority with one member who was AFK through the entire fight and still got credit, and several of the others died in the process. The raid group does not have to function perfectly without any deaths in order to take down a boss.
 
In fact, the ONLY time when nobody can die to take down a boss or the whole thing resets is in solo play, where if anyone dies, everyone dies.
 
Now THAT is difficult content.
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if gear progression is dependant on the use of said gear then raid gear would only work in raids and be wimpy for every thing else. like PVP gear.
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This is from my perspective as a DPS.
 
If I'm in a group/raid, I have to know where my healer is(added bonus there:P didn't have to worry about anything but LoS in other games, here I have to actually make sure I'm in the healers telegraphs, look for them and not dodge out of them).  I have to pay attention to my threat.  I have to know when it's my turn to use my IA.  If I get hit by something that puts an AoE/bomb on me that follows me around, I have to watch out for the rest of the group so I don't hinder them.  I have to pay attention to if/when to use my group buffs if those are applicable.  If there's puzzle mechanics, I have to pay attention to what the others are doing so I don't bork them trying to do the puzzle mechanics.  If I'm solo, I have none of that to worry about, none of that added effort.  
 
Yea, the content should be rewarded, but solo =/= to raiding.
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Should that also apply to people going into lower level areas, for what ever reason they would be going there?
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Look, I can appreciate that you want to progress your character, but if you simply aren't willing to work with others in an MMO, you don't deserve the same rewards that those that ARE doing that get. You don't see me sitting here crying about not being in DS yet, because I understand and accept that I don't have the time or energy to commit to raiding at that level. I take what I can get, I enjoy myself, and I stop trying to keep up with the Joneses.
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I need to clarify  my statement, since I'm the one that said it, and obviously the nuances I included are being ignored.
It would kill casual raiding (ie. the 1-2 days a week, couple hours a day) raiding scene because those people will seek the easiest means of getting loot. They don't want to 'waste their time' in game because it's valuable to them because there isn't much. Raiding is fun for them, but they can still do large group content in the way of world events.
 
It will hurt all tiers of raiding, because there will be less people seeking to raid, and it starts to trickle up... no one running PURs because you can get the same gear solo with less time invested, leads to less casual raiders gearing up and seeking more, which turns into less mid-tier raiders biding their time for a spot in the top end, and that means less talent from top-end guilds to choose from. It will collapse from to bottom up, with casual raiders and mid-level suffering from number deficiencies before the high end players see them, but it's only a matter of time before everyone is begging for warm bodies to fill a raid enough to even zone into an instance.
 
Raiding would still exist, but the participation would drop dramatically. Is it because raiding in and of itself is unpleasant? Nope... it's just human nature to take the path of least resistance. Having to schedule life around raid times vs being able to log in when you want. Hoping 19 others don't screw up vs only relying on yourself. It might be the most fun you have, but if the effort isn't worth it (rewards are the same as solo, no unique appearances, nothing special about them) then why go through the effort?
 
Look, I can appreciate that you want to progress your character, but if you simply aren't willing to work with others in an MMO, you don't deserve the same rewards that those that ARE doing that get. You don't see me sitting here crying about not being in DS yet, because I understand and accept that I don't have the time or energy to commit to raiding at that level. I take what I can get, I enjoy myself, and I stop trying to keep up with the Joneses.
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All you have done in your post is reiterate that people wouldn't raid if they were not forced to by having only one progression path - raid or miss out.
you are happy to coerce people who don't really want to raid into doing it so those that do want to raid have enough people to play with.
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if the gear was equally powerful and equally as cool looking but not the same as raid gear it would still be worth it.
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I hate doing this so please excuse the comparison to WoW.  Wildstar is a better game than WoW and much more fun but...
WoW created Proving grounds with 4 levels of progression. they where all solo and all gear was down or upgraded to be at a consistent level.  the challenge was you had to know how to play your class to pass each level.  it was based on skill of the player and not all players could achieve the last level.  it was all about barging rights. if you got the title for bronze, silver, gold or endless it said something.  a lot of elite raider failed this challenge because they relied on their gear, and team mates to progress. some people with out gear achieved.  at a point many people raider or not would not post their achievement or would not even try the content.  
 
I am not stating this with the intent that wildstar should add this content.  but it does allow that solo content can be challenging.  
 
if Wildstar where to implement challenging solo content with raid equizilant rewards not all raiders would just blow through it.  many people would still prefer the group aspect of raiding and i think thats great.  but that does not mean there should not be good solo content or that solo content would kill raiding. it would just be a different way to progress to the top.  and i do mean the top.  why would i both with challenging content to still be less powerfully geared than a raider.  equalize the challenge equalize the content equalize the reward.	
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solo content will always be easier than group content because you take away too many elements. teamwork, tanking and healing to just name a few.
 
no matter what you do if you cant put forth the effort to raid that same amount of effort put towards solo content will never add up to the same value. raiders put in hundreds of hours to down bosses, you want your quick 15-30min runs and a little elbow grease to get you the same or even close to the same rewards is ludicrous.
 
no matter how many times you say "the same effort" it will never be even close. not even half the amount of effort.
 
i understand for cool cosmetics and mounts and stuff of that nature but not something you can bring to other aspects of the game.	
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PVP is something I've never been interested in. I don't expect to be able to get the best PVP rated gear just because I queue for practice bg's a couple times a week. I do expect to get smaller upgrades that will help me get better at PVP, along with the skill and know-how of playing PVP, so that some day I might try this whole rated PVP thing and not be terrible at it.
 
You will never see me sitting here saying that I deserve the very best PVP gear because I pay the same as those other PVPers, and it's just as hard for me (as a completely unskilled PVPer) to win in a BG as it is for them to win in rated. I might put in as much effort as them, but it's done in practice BG's with whatever team the queue puts me in (essentially solo) instead of finding and working with a team to get rated high enough to get the best. And I'm totally ok with that. Because I'm unwilling to make a team to tackle on the harder challenges of PVP, I don't deserve the rewards that those who DO put in the effort would get.
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solo content will always be easier than group content because you take away too many elements. teamwork, tanking and healing to just name a few.
 
no matter what you do if you cant put forth the effort to raid that same amount of effort put towards solo content will never add up to the same value. raiders put in hundreds of hours to down bosses, you want your quick 15-30min runs and a little elbow grease to get you the same or even close to the same rewards is ludicrous.
 
no matter how many times you say "the same effort" it will never be even close. not even half the amount of effort.
 
i understand for cool cosmetics and mounts and stuff of that nature but not something you can bring to other aspects of the game.
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			just because some one has not done something does not mean it cant be done.  solo content can be challenging and rewarding and not kill raids but be equal to raids.  	
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Easily solved. The equally rewarding gear for equally challenging solo content can be difficulty matched to cause approximately the same number of wipes during the learning curve and time-gated to prevent it from being farmed repeatedly.
 
As for "hoping 19 others don't screw up", don't make me laugh. I spent this morning watching a raid group take down Maelstrom Authority with one member who was AFK through the entire fight and still got credit, and several of the others died in the process. The raid group does not have to function perfectly without any deaths in order to take down a boss.
 
In fact, the ONLY time when nobody can die to take down a boss or the whole thing resets is in solo play, where if anyone dies, everyone dies.
 
Now THAT is difficult content.
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This thread is just infuriatingly stupid, I hope it gets locked before it spreads.
 
Wildstar is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game and as such it should always encourage you to seek and find the help of other players.
You absolutely can't expect (and it doesn't make any sense) to get the same level of rewards solo as you would for beating the most powerful creatures the Eldan have ever created; Raidbosses etc, strong enough to destroy all of Nexus.
There's no "1v1 me Avatus i'll rek u" and it would be a joke if you could get equal quality items from anything your character is able to do by him/her self
 
The powerful items you're getting from raid bosses are imbued with their strength, some items are strong enough to have their own lore.
 
 
Your character isn't superman, but your enemies are.	
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This thread is just infuriatingly stupid, I hope it gets locked before it spreads.
 
Wildstar is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game and as such it should always encourage you to seek and find the help of other players.
You absolutely can't expect (and it doesn't make any sense) to get the same level of rewards solo as you would for beating the most powerful creatures the Eldan have ever created; Raidbosses etc, strong enough to destroy all of Nexus.
There's no "1v1 me Avatus i'll rek u" and it would be a joke if you could get equal quality items from anything your character is able to do by him/her self
 
The powerful items you're getting from raid bosses are imbued with their strength, some items are strong enough to have their own lore.
 
 
Your character isn't superman, but your enemies are.
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The root of the problem is there needs to be other challenging content besides Raiding.
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Challenging solo content sure, but what some here are requesting is a primarily single player experience where you end up in the same place as someone who beat all raid content with his group.
This is not a single player game, if you think you should be getting legendary loot on raid level of any kind for any solo content then you are most likely playing the wrong genre.
 
It doesn't make any sense within the game world and lore, it's all (like every single MMO out there) boiling down to eventually directly encountering and beating whichever darkness is at the top of the food chain at the moment.
If you want to experience this alone, that's fine, play Skyrim then.
 
An MMORPGs main goal is to bring people together, set them up against a villain and see if they come out alive. You encourage that with loot, vanity items or achievements they can show off and be proud of.
If you take the loot exclusivity away and hand out raid level items for single player content in a multiplayer game, you are discouraging people from playing in groups.
Why bother with 19 others who could potentially ruin it for you and you have to roll the dice against, right?
 
Single player content will -always- be easier than multiplayer content.	
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I just wanted to pop in and quote this, because this is a statement I could not possibly agree more with. Very much yes.
 
Vet shiphands were, in that respect, a complete and utter disappointment.
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Challenging solo content sure, but what some here are requesting is a primarily single player experience where you end up in the same place as someone who beat all raid content with his group.
This is not a single player game, if you think you should be getting legendary loot on raid level of any kind for any solo content then you are most likely playing the wrong genre.
 
It doesn't make any sense within the game world and lore, it's all (like every single MMO out there) boiling down to eventually directly encountering and beating whichever darkness is at the top of the food chain at the moment.
If you want to experience this alone, that's fine, play Skyrim then.
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Since when does "not raiding" = "solo" only?
 
And note I said nothing about rewards from said content, only my desire for more challenging content outside of raids.
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Single player content will -always- be easier than multiplayer content.
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I'm afraid I dont agree with this statement. If 20 people are in a raid group and 19 of them die, the raid group succeeds.
If 1 person is in an instanced fight and 1 person dies, the instanced fight resets.
 
So your raid group can have 19 out of 20 people do something wrong that gets them killed and still win.
A soloer can't afford to have that much messing it up going on in their instance. They have to get it right or they never make it out of the instance.
 
I note with interest that this makes solo content impossible to be carried through, which also makes achieving it a more definitive accomplishment for each and every player who does it, as opposed to a raid group where you can get both loot and credit by AFKing through the encounter.
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The root of the problem is there needs to be other challenging content besides Raiding.
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I personally love the shiphands! they are great win, and i hope they do more progressive versions of them that are more challenging and thus give better rewards.   maybe even an epic Shiphand quest or two for better gear.  even though I don't always play with 19 other people its still and MMO and there are people to socialize with.  might even team up.  the multiplayer aspect of MMOs is that there are massive amounts of people online, not that you have to team up with all of them.  MMOs have always had solo content I would just like to see that aspect of the game go a little farther.  making it progressive. add the next several tiers of solo instances like shiphands where solo players can get some good gear, and then come back and blow through dailies like where nothing.  I know this is contrary to the idea that raiders with the best gear are the only ones that can dominate level 50 daily mobs and get all the dailys done in 30min. while non raiders spend hours doing the same quest line because they do not kill as fast.  but maybe a little balance between play styles would be nice.  
 
how about we make PVP gear work for quest and world content that way PVPer only need to farm one set of gear like raiders.  even the difference between PVPers and Raiders a bit.  I know I know raiders would through a fit about that because they work hard for their gear and they deserve the right to dominate in any thing they do. where other play styles could not possibly be as challenging and thus not even come close to deserving the same quality of gear.  or maybe every play style should have challenging content and a chance to progress to the top level of gear.  not that every one would get all the free gear they want, you still have to work hard for PVP gear at the top levels.  solo should be no different crafting should be no different. the gear is not worth it if you don't have a challenge to get it. but that doesn't mean raid for it or suffer with out it.  	
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Challenging solo content sure, but what some here are requesting is a primarily single player experience where you end up in the same place as someone who beat all raid content with his group.
This is not a single player game, if you think you should be getting legendary loot on raid level of any kind for any solo content then you are most likely playing the wrong genre.
 
It doesn't make any sense within the game world and lore, it's all (like every single MMO out there) boiling down to eventually directly encountering and beating whichever darkness is at the top of the food chain at the moment.
If you want to experience this alone, that's fine, play Skyrim then.
 
An MMORPGs main goal is to bring people together, set them up against a villain and see if they come out alive. You encourage that with loot, vanity items or achievements they can show off and be proud of.
If you take the loot exclusivity away and hand out raid level items for single player content in a multiplayer game, you are discouraging people from playing in groups.
Why bother with 19 others who could potentially ruin it for you and you have to roll the dice against, right?
 
Single player content will -always- be easier than multiplayer content.
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.
 
 
 
 
Does anyone else see the problem with these two concepts?  I completely agree that raiding should not be the only "Top End"  content.  Why is it so difficult to create solo or small group content that provides a challenge that's considered 'Top End'?    
 
MMOs need to break out of the formula of Quest -> 5-man ->raid.  It's old. It's tired.  It's clearly not allowing for more advanced or superior content design.  
 
 
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You know the devs should do an experiment : have orange gear drop with a 100% chance when doing gold in a dungeon...
 
This would be equal to very challenging content for little groups, like many people here are asking, but don't you think on the other hand it would have TONS of bad repercussions on the game and the community ?
 
What i'm saying is this : many people in this thread want gear equal to what drop in raids by being in smaller groups and would accept (OR SO THEY THINK) that it should be more challenging. What do you think is going to happen with a scenario like the above (guaranteed orange drop for gold dungeon) ?
 
Be honest : what do you think will happen ?
 
Think about it a minute, with really being honest...
When you are honest and come up for the answer : Well then this is the reason why WS doesn't function like that...
 
Be careful what you wish for people...	
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 I personally don't believe in this. If you're not doing top end content, you don't need top end gear.
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You know the devs should do an experiment : have orange gear drop with a 100% chance when doing gold in a dungeon...
 
This would be equal to very challenging content for little groups, like many people here are asking, but don't you think on the other hand it would have TONS of bad repercussions on the game and the community ?
 
What i'm saying is this : many people in this thread want gear equal to what drop in raids by being in smaller groups and would accept (OR SO THEY THINK) that it should be more challenging. What do you think is going to happen with a scenario like the above (guaranteed orange drop for gold dungeon) ?
 
Be honest : what do you think will happen ?
 
Think about it a minute, with really being honest...
When you are honest and come up for the answer : Well then this is the reason why WS doesn't function like that...
 
Be careful what you wish for people...
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You know the devs should do an experiment : have orange gear drop with a 100% chance when doing gold in a dungeon...
 
This would be equal to very challenging content for little groups, like many people here are asking, but don't you think on the other hand it would have TONS of bad repercussions on the game and the community ?
 
What i'm saying is this : many people in this thread want gear equal to what drop in raids by being in smaller groups and would accept (OR SO THEY THINK) that it should be more challenging. What do you think is going to happen with a scenario like the above (guaranteed orange drop for gold dungeon) ?
 
Be honest : what do you think will happen ?
 
Think about it a minute, with really being honest...
When you are honest and come up for the answer : Well then this is the reason why WS doesn't function like that...
 
Be careful what you wish for people...
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Imagine that after 50 levels of doing what you want (like raiding, at least in this hypothetical scenario that I'm designing) suddenly the only way to get the best orange gear wasn't raids but via winning housing contests. Don't you think people who don't care about housing wouldn't complain about that? Be honest with yourself, now. Because I know that something you won't be is logical.
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[...] how about you? do you not think it would be fair to have more progressive solo instances or other ways to get to top level gear.  [...]
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You know the devs should do an experiment : have orange gear drop with a 100% chance when doing gold in a dungeon...
 
This would be equal to very challenging content for little groups, like many people here are asking, but don't you think on the other hand it would have TONS of bad repercussions on the game and the community ?
 
What i'm saying is this : many people in this thread want gear equal to what drop in raids by being in smaller groups and would accept (OR SO THEY THINK) that it should be more challenging. What do you think is going to happen with a scenario like the above (guaranteed orange drop for gold dungeon) ?
 
Be honest : what do you think will happen ?
 
Think about it a minute, with really being honest...
When you are honest and come up for the answer : Well then this is the reason why WS doesn't function like that...
 
Be careful what you wish for people...
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Grouping is good for you even if you think it's not. And this is why there always will be a carrot somewhere in the distance, surrounded by a golden light, with shiny mesmerizing words underneath that try to hypnotize you : "Group... Play with other people... You will discover something you didn't imagine".
 
I dunnow, may not be as big a difference as skydiving for someone who is afraid of heights, or scuba-diving for people afraid of water, but still : 
 
Group...
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Apples and oranges. You are leveling up in one sphere and then requiring another. That would be like leveling in PVP and requiring dungeons to get to do rated arenas. That would be like leveling up your crafting then realizing you need BOP schematics from dungeons or PVP to complete your talent tree (oh wait, this is happening... and broken and should be fixed). Or leveling by PVE and being told that you have to get your crafting to max and complete your research before you step into a dungeon.
 
It's simply easier to ramp up difficulty by adding more players, because there's only so much you can do with a solo mob. You can require some movement, some interrupts, some damage mitigation, but there's a limit to all of those based on the most that any single class can do (ie. you can't put IA3 on an ability that solo mobs use that needs to be interrupted, because not all classes can remove IA3). So the way to make things "harder" for solo players is to make mobs hit harder or have lots of hps. That isn't fair to light armor wearers who can't mitigate more dmg, and it's not actually HARD to take more hps off a mob, it just takes more time.
 
There's always a cry for more challenging solo content, but there will always be a limit to how that challenge is achieved. What you might find challenging, someone might find tedious and boring. What you find easy, someone else might die to repeatedly. And like all things, even something that is challenging at first will become easy with time. Even with added mechanics like hiding behind pillars or needing to click something at the right time would become second nature with a few go-throughs.
 
I can agree with giving harder content for solo and small group (3 and under players) players, but I absolutely do not agree that they should be able to acquire the best gear through this challenging content. I'm sorry that you feel you don't have the time to raid, I don't either, and I feel like I have plenty to do to progress my player outside of raids. You are simply asking for raid rewards without raiding. I'd be happy to see solo gear for solo content (things that offer some extra mitigation for light armor wearers, or heals for non-heal classes, or something like that) with specials that would help in solo play but wouldn't be as useful in dungeons or raids.
 
(as an aside, I'm so so so so so so so sick and tired of people crying "Raid gear shouldn't work outside of raids" all the time!)
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{| class="blockquote"
You know the devs should do an experiment : have orange gear drop with a 100% chance when doing gold in a dungeon...
 
This would be equal to very challenging content for little groups, like many people here are asking, but don't you think on the other hand it would have TONS of bad repercussions on the game and the community ?
 
What i'm saying is this : many people in this thread want gear equal to what drop in raids by being in smaller groups and would accept (OR SO THEY THINK) that it should be more challenging. What do you think is going to happen with a scenario like the above (guaranteed orange drop for gold dungeon) ?
 
Be honest : what do you think will happen ?
 
Think about it a minute, with really being honest...
When you are honest and come up for the answer : Well then this is the reason why WS doesn't function like that...
 
Be careful what you wish for people...
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{| class="blockquote"
 
In theory yes, in practice : hell no. 
 
It's like world peace really... In theory : "why can't we just all get along", and then there is the reality...
I've played games that have attempted that, in theory it's nice, but the reality of it is it breaks more things than it creates.
It does more harm than good.
 
Not going to explain : "path of least resistance", "damn if you do, damn if you don't" and many other things that pertains to these types of MMOs.
 
Either you have the experience, or you're wise, or you can try to be honest and real with your analysis of what would happen even if it means your theory would be shattered, or you don't, aren't, can't...
 
 
 
This is a problem of semantics really. It's not the word "raider" you should use. This is only a sub part of the people that group to do content.
 
Because the problem is not about raid or raiding, it's about solo content versus group content, whatever the size or difficulty.
 
ALSO, and this may be the most important, no matter who you are or who you think you are : 
 
Grouping is good for you even if you think it's not. And this is why there always will be a carrot somewhere in the distance, surrounded by a golden light, with shiny mesmerizing words underneath that try to hypnotize you : "Group... Play with other people... You will discover something you didn't imagine".
 
I dunnow, may not be as big a difference as skydiving for someone who is afraid of heights, or scuba-diving for people afraid of water, but still : 
 
Group...
 
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
 
One of the fallacies I see with this argument is the idea that players want "the same gear"  as what comes out of raids.    It's not about gear, it's about progressing through difficult content.   Solo/small group content is always looked upon as lesser than raiding.  And mostly that's because it's designed to be weaker.  But what if it wasn't?  What if solo or small group content could provide content that was, pound for pound, just as difficulty as raiding?   
 
The current progress model is far too linear.  Quests -> Ship Hands -> Adventures -> Dungeons -> Raids.   Everything funnels you more and more towards larger and larger group content the further you go into 'end game'.  What if this wasn't the case?  We've seen games such as Diablo work well with a system that rewards solo and group content and progression fairly equally.  It's not a perfect comparison, but it DOES illustrate that it's possible to create progression which scales fairly equally no matter what group size you prefer.  
 
 It SHOULD be possible to design solo or small-group content that provides just as much difficulty and progression as large group raiding.  You should be able to bring however many people that you want or have available.  If you are a solo god, you should be able to turn up the difficulty on a mission or encounter to the point where it is delivering a difficulty that, on a pound for pound basis, is just as challenging for a larger group.    
 
In a game like WIldstar, where personal player ability plays such a large role, there is an amazing opportunity and capacity for rewards to be given out because someone outplayed the content.  Why should it matter if the gear was obtained in a raid or not, as long as the content provided difficulty on the same level?  Either way a person or people playing exceedingly well should be rewarded. All that needs to happen is for the difficulty of the solo/small group content is set at a point where even people in raids will look at it and be impressed. 
 
I repeat:  The idea that the best gear can ONLY come from a raid, and that ONLY raids can provide the most challenge, is an outdated concept.  
 
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Gear will always nullify any solo content, only way around this is to remove gear rewards! But that is not what you want.
Like the posts above say you then need to design content for every class in the game, and that is impossible for any MMO, only solution would be to remove any mobs or damage areas.....jump puzzle   :)    	
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The way the game is currently designed it would make no sense to have legendary gear dropping outside of DS (or any other kind of gear that has the same power).
 
The gear that drops in a raid is part of the toolset required to complete thát raid, you cannot kill the last boss of the current raid tier when you only wear gear that has the item level of the previous tier.
 
Having legendary gear dropping in shiphands/dungeons/GA would make no sense at all, its not required to finish that content.
 
 
That being said; It would be great if Carbine managed to cook up something so brutal and hard for solo/small party play that requires the same kind of loot progression as the top end of raiding does. Though i am also afraid it would give a lot of QQ from players that can't finish that content and are screaming for nerfs xD	
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You can do ALL solo content in a group, but you can't solo any content designed for a group.
 
Group content will always be harder by default than solo content because all you do is take away factors and variables.
There just is no solo equivalent to a lot of the mechanics in dungeons or raids.
 
It's an MMO, socializing and grouping is strongly encouraged and should be required if you aim to progress past a certain point. If you don't get that then you're simply playing the wrong game.
It doesn't make any sense lore-wise for your character to progress to/past raid level alone. Stop crying for easy legendaries.
 
I haven't set foot in a single raid in Wildstar myself yet but thoughts like "Where else could I get my full legendary set?" have never ever crossed my mind, it's mind boggling.
There's a ton of progression for my character still outside of raids (AMP/Ability points, guild, reputations, achievements, housing, crafting, costumes, dungeons etc etc etc), but you can't seriously expect raid-level gear for solo content.
Why bother with raids then, path of least resistance.
 
Play a different game if you don't like multiplayer aspects of a multiplayer game.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Gear will always nullify any solo content, only way around this is to remove gear rewards! But that is not what you want.
Like the posts above say you then need to design content for every class in the game, and that is impossible for any MMO, only solution would be to remove any mobs or damage areas.....jump puzzle   :)    
 
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So answer me this question, if carbine introduced solo/small group instances (say 2-3 people) that were challenging but you would receive no super amazing loot from these encounters, would you still play them?
 
If the answer is no, then your arguments are fuelled by "i want the highest gear and I want it now" rather than "i want challenging content that I can play on my own". If carb implemented something solo, or small scale that is challenging and fun but would reward me with an awesome gearset that looks good, but is just underneath GA gear levels, I would be very happy.
 
Either that, or a clear progressively harder quest line that takes a considerable amount of time, which over time would give you tokens available to give in for gear similar to raid loot. But that said, it's a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online game, not a solo quest game. If you want to play a solo-able gear progressive game, you are in the wrong genre.
 
Again, people forget how hard it actually would be to create content suited for solo players, how far can they push dmg received/dmg needed for each encounter for each class in a way that is still fair?
 
Seriously, I sympathise with people who have a busy life now. But I don't understand why people can't play an MMO as an MMO anymore. You may have grown up, life has changed, but it doesn't mean the genre will change to suit you all of a sudden...	
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{| class="blockquote"
You can do ALL solo content in a group, but you can't solo any content designed for a group.
 
Group content will always be harder by default than solo content because all you do is take away factors and variables.
There just is no solo equivalent to a lot of the mechanics in dungeons or raids.
 
It's an MMO, socializing and grouping is strongly encouraged and should be required if you aim to progress past a certain point. If you don't get that then you're simply playing the wrong game.
It doesn't make any sense lore-wise for your character to progress to/past raid level alone. Stop crying for easy legendaries.
 
I haven't set foot in a single raid in Wildstar myself yet but thoughts like "Where else could I get my full legendary set?" have never ever crossed my mind, it's mind boggling.
There's a ton of progression for my character still outside of raids (AMP/Ability points, guild, reputations, achievements, housing, crafting, costumes, dungeons etc etc etc), but you can't seriously expect raid-level gear for solo content.
Why bother with raids then, path of least resistance.
 
Play a different game if you don't like multiplayer aspects of a multiplayer game.
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{| class="blockquote"
Always?  You'll need to explain how and why.  ALL MMO content is eventually invalidated by gear. And what if the solo content included enemies that were challenging and had stats appropriate for raid level gear?    
 
 
 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
I think you may have been missing some of the finer distinctions that have been made later in the thread. Who is asking for 'easy'  legendaries?  Who is asking for 'easy'  ANYTHING?     Lore should NEVER be used as an explanation for gameplay balance.  NEVER!   And even if it was, there are more stories about a lone hero accomplishing amazing feats than you could shake a stick at over the course of a hundred years.  
 
Also,  MMOs don't always need to be limited to the scope of large group content.  It's a large part of the genre, to be sure, but there's also equal amounts of communication, trading, crafting, economy, competition, and community.   Content does NOT need to be locked to certain-sized groups in order to be successful. 
 
 
See, this is the type of thing that I've been arguing against. Too many people think that the only way for an MMO to work is to follow the standard format of quest/5man/raid.   There are other ways!  All it takes is to NOT think of solo content in terms of weaker group content.   Design it in ways that would challenge a single player instead of a group.   You don't have to coordinate 20 people, so don't try to!  It's not a raid, so don't try to think of it in those terms or use encounters in the same way. You don't even have to design around threat or aggro since there's only one person.  Instead you can design content to pressure the player in other ways.    There are many ways to do this:  Time trials, puzzles, timed puzzles, environmental effects,  temporary tools/effects that have to be timed correctly, swarms of enemies that have to be carefully attacked/controlled, defense of objects/NPCs, controlling locations, DPS races, etc, etc.  Virtually anything other than a single massive, super-one-shotting boss with a bazillion hitpoints that has to have a tank and a dedicated healer shoved up his bum to survive.  
 
Until you stop thinking of difficult solo content as just being group content that's been nerfed, you'll never open your eyes to the possibilities of it. 
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Gear will always nullify any solo content, only way around this is to remove gear rewards! But that is not what you want.
Like the posts above say you then need to design content for every class in the game, and that is impossible for any MMO, only solution would be to remove any mobs or damage areas.....jump puzzle   :)    
----
			
Simple solution in theory i came up with, make the new "SOLO Content legendary gear", light blue not OJ.
When you make more SOLOABLE content THAT Light blue gear can NEVER go into DS raids. 
It can go into GA so that if whenever they decide to change their minds and put more time into the game and want the actual legendaries they have to pull the same weight that everyone else did, end of story there will be no way around it you don't put the time you don't get squat that the people that did get.
 
So you are satisfied with your "legendaries" and reward for your time in your level of activity and effort within the game its self.
 
Now how can that happen, well you have PVP instances and that gear should only effect other users with pvp gear as i said waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when. 
How can you achieve this well renown is not rewarded in non-instanced raid group locations, thats how you put in place this limiting of areas with gear, Light blue can enter GA not DS.
You don't have the gear for that instance you can not enter it, I mean that is it - if you want more add a letter to the iLevel so right now it's level 55 blues this can be level 55s s = solo achieved gear.
 
P.s. I read the title a few words here and their, I did not read all this but wanted to add my change in the pile.
 
 	
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{| class="blockquote"
So answer me this question, if carbine introduced solo/small group instances (say 2-3 people) that were challenging but you would receive no super amazing loot from these encounters, would you still play them?
 
If the answer is no, then your arguments are fuelled by "i want the highest gear and I want it now" rather than "i want challenging content that I can play on my own".
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Still does not address the class problem, light gear “ I really don't like getting hit “ heavy gear “ no problem I can take it “ like I said only way you could ever make things fair would be to remove mobs from the challenge, and remove all gear rewards to keep them challenging!
 
But this thread is not about the challenge, it's about turning a multi player PC game into nothing more than a single player 2 hour console game, and players wanting the same rewards.  
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
So if you have a point here, I'm not seeing it.
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{| class="blockquote"
For the record, I spend a fair amount of time doing group content solo for the additional challenge, and the rewards for doing it are flatly nowhere near what they should be in comparison to the challenge involved. But even if I didn't, your argument is only relevant if it can't be applied just as well to raiders who have challenging and rewarding content as to solo players who are asking for challenging and rewarding content.
 
But clearly it can be. You could pose the exact same premise to raiders. If raids were just as hard but had no loot, would you do them? If the answer is no, then you're just in it for the phat lewt.
 
Raiders reject that argument entirely on the basis that overcoming challenge should be appropriately rewarded, and they are right to do so.
That's why I will also be rejecting your argument. Yeah, I can do challenging content for no rewards. But if I do challenging content, I should be rewarded appropriate to the challenge. 
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{| class="blockquote"
 
But the fact remains, solo content in a almost exclusively multiplayer based game is nothing more than a gimmick. It absolutely cannot be 'used' to skip end game raid content and hand out legendaries. 
The only way this can work is as a sidekick to the rest of the game, where it would reward you with lots of fun vanity items (housing, mounts, flairs, costumes, AMP/Ability points, dyes, etc) or as an alternative catch-up mechanism at best, sort of like the Dragonsoul 5man instances in Cataclysm WoW.
----
			
This is such a silly discussion. Sure there should be solo-content, but it should never take priority over group-content. This is an MMO (Massive Multiplayer Online) game after all. If people want to play a single player game that plays like an MMO they should go play Monster Hunter or Kingdoms of Amalur or something. Or the latest Dragon Age, that one is full of MMO quests as well and pretty much plays like one.
 
There are more than enough games for you solo-players, so go play one of those instead of trying to change one of the few MMO's into another one of those asocial games, because if your biggest complaint about Wildstar is that there is too much of a focus on group-play then it is clear this game (and probably this whole genre) isn't for you.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You can do ALL solo content in a group, but you can't solo any content designed for a group.
 
Group content will always be harder by default than solo content because all you do is take away factors and variables.
There just is no solo equivalent to a lot of the mechanics in dungeons or raids.
 
It's an MMO, socializing and grouping is strongly encouraged and should be required if you aim to progress past a certain point. If you don't get that then you're simply playing the wrong game.
It doesn't make any sense lore-wise for your character to progress to/past raid level alone. Stop crying for easy legendaries.
 
I haven't set foot in a single raid in Wildstar myself yet but thoughts like "Where else could I get my full legendary set?" have never ever crossed my mind, it's mind boggling.
There's a ton of progression for my character still outside of raids (AMP/Ability points, guild, reputations, achievements, housing, crafting, costumes, dungeons etc etc etc), but you can't seriously expect raid-level gear for solo content.
Why bother with raids then, path of least resistance.
 
Play a different game if you don't like multiplayer aspects of a multiplayer game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So answer me this question, if carbine introduced solo/small group instances (say 2-3 people) that were challenging but you would receive no super amazing loot from these encounters, would you still play them?
 
If the answer is no, then your arguments are fuelled by "i want the highest gear and I want it now" rather than "i want challenging content that I can play on my own". If carb implemented something solo, or small scale that is challenging and fun but would reward me with an awesome gearset that looks good, but is just underneath GA gear levels, I would be very happy.
 
Either that, or a clear progressively harder quest line that takes a considerable amount of time, which over time would give you tokens available to give in for gear similar to raid loot. But that said, it's a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER online game, not a solo quest game. If you want to play a solo-able gear progressive game, you are in the wrong genre.
 
Again, people forget how hard it actually would be to create content suited for solo players, how far can they push dmg received/dmg needed for each encounter for each class in a way that is still fair?
 
Seriously, I sympathise with people who have a busy life now. But I don't understand why people can't play an MMO as an MMO anymore. You may have grown up, life has changed, but it doesn't mean the genre will change to suit you all of a sudden...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Still does not address the class problem, light gear “ I really don't like getting hit “ heavy gear “ no problem I can take it “ like I said only way you could ever make things fair would be to remove mobs from the challenge, and remove all gear rewards to keep them challenging!
 
But this thread is not about the challenge, it's about turning a multi player PC game into nothing more than a single player 2 hour console game, and players wanting the same rewards.  
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
But that's what it is, because everything you mentioned can be done for group content as well and then some. There are encounters and mechanics that are simply not possible to do solo but there is not a single solo mechanic that you can't do in a group.
It is easier content, simple as that.
 
There's no way to make challenging single player content work for 6 classes and 3 specializations and not be just dumped down group content.
 
If you want somewhat challenging solo content, sure, I liked the OMNIcore. It could reward costumes, housing stuff, AMP points / Ability points and the like but it cannot reward end raid-level legendary gear in any way shape or form.
That would be incredibly unfair and make it always preferable over group content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Simple solution in theory i came up with, make the new "SOLO Content legendary gear", light blue not OJ.
When you make more SOLOABLE content THAT Light blue gear can NEVER go into DS raids.
It can go into GA so that if whenever they decide to change their minds and put more time into the game and want the actual legendaries they have to pull the same weight that everyone else did, end of story there will be no way around it you don't put the time you don't get squat that the people that did get.
 
So you are satisfied with your "legendaries" and reward for your time in your level of activity and effort within the game its self.
 
Now how can that happen, well you have PVP instances and that gear should only effect other users with pvp gear as i said waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when.
How can you achieve this well renown is not rewarded in non-instanced raid group locations, thats how you put in place this limiting of areas with gear, Light blue can enter GA not DS.
You don't have the gear for that instance you can not enter it, I mean that is it - if you want more add a letter to the iLevel so right now it's level 55 blues this can be level 55s s = solo achieved gear.
 
P.s. I read the title a few words here and their, I did not read all this but wanted to add my change in the pile.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For the record, I spend a fair amount of time doing group content solo for the additional challenge, and the rewards for doing it are flatly nowhere near what they should be in comparison to the challenge involved. But even if I didn't, your argument is only relevant if it can't be applied just as well to raiders who have challenging and rewarding content as to solo players who are asking for challenging and rewarding content.
 
But clearly it can be. You could pose the exact same premise to raiders. If raids were just as hard but had no loot, would you do them? If the answer is no, then you're just in it for the phat lewt.
 
Raiders reject that argument entirely on the basis that overcoming challenge should be appropriately rewarded, and they are right to do so.
That's why I will also be rejecting your argument. Yeah, I can do challenging content for no rewards. But if I do challenging content, I should be rewarded appropriate to the challenge. 
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{| class="blockquote"
By all means jump right in :)
 
not a bad idea but at some point the idea of different gear for different activities has to be applyed equaly (ie raid gear is only for raiding or all gears works in world content equally PVP included)  but i would not dismiss a set of solo armor/raid armor/PVP armor.  there just needs to be a way to equalize them in the open world content.  the fact that Raids crush daily's because their gear allows them to but PVPers and non raids cant is a little unequal.  and if you add the fact that solo players can crush dailies and operate in other aspects of MMO then you have just increase the unequal bases. 
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actually sarcasism aside, 100% of players are solo players.  we all quest up to 50 we all farm. I doubt any one as ever not done something in the game solo.  and no place in this thread have i said i wish there were no other players.  I like other plays, I just dont want to rely on them all the time.  
 
 
so if MMOs are all about the multiplayer aspect then why not make it where you can leave the city unless your in a group.  you should not be able to quest unless you have at least 5 people on a team.  you should not be able to level unless your in a group.  if all we are going to do is multiplayer content and there is no room for solo play, then lets move forward with it and stop all this fullish I can farm by my self mentality!
			
				
	Edited February 22, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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{| class="blockquote"
actually sarcasism aside, 100% of players are solo players.  we all quest up to 50 we all farm. I doubt any one as ever not done something in the game solo.  and no place in this thread have i said i wish there were no other players.  I like other plays, I just dont want to rely on them all the time.  
 
so if MMOs are all about the multiplayer aspect then why not make it where you can leave the city unless your in a group.  you should not be able to quest unless you have at least 5 people on a team.  you should not be able to level unless your in a group.  if all we are going to do is multiplayer content and there is no room for solo play, then lets move forward with it and stop all this fullish I can farm by my self mentality!
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{| class="blockquote"
This is such a silly discussion. Sure there should be solo-content, but it should never take priority over group-content. This is an MMO (Massive Multiplayer Online) game after all. If people want to play a single player game that plays like an MMO they should go play Monster Hunter or Kingdoms of Amalur or something. Or the latest Dragon Age, that one is full of MMO quests as well and pretty much plays like one.
 
There are more than enough games for you solo-players, so go play one of those instead of trying to change one of the few MMO's into another one of those asocial games, because if your biggest complaint about Wildstar is that there is too much of a focus on group-play then it is clear this game (and probably this whole genre) isn't for you.
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{| class="blockquote"
No.
Not 100% of your target audience is a solo player.
I've done many quests in group, cleared whole zones while leveling in group. So please do not throw out numbers for the sake of argumenting.
There's solo players and there's group players.
 
MMO's should support both.
Solo if you want, group if you want. But changing everything into a single player game, then there's no need to play online either.
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{| class="blockquote"
How it this unequal?
Dailies are part of PvE Content, thus people investing time in PvE have a clear advantage.
PvP'ers should have their daily PvP rewards as well for sure, but why again are you thinkingering with PvE content because a different target audience complains?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I like multiplayer aspects of the game as well as solo, i just want them equaled out. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
why not give solo players (also a PVE) a clear advantage as well.  
----
			
Stop  making content for the 1% population, full stop.
Most guilds are either the mega PVE guilds or small groups of friends. 
There needs to be smaller raids, and active PVP that isn't Watiki temple. 	
----
			
Please go ahead, I hope anoher game does it for you. The Secret World maybe?
 
Wildstar from the start has always been aimed at raiding, I don't understand why some look surprised that the best of the best can be found within the raiding part of this game.
 
Anyway to make content on part with raiding is hard, simply because the hardest aspect is working together.
You look what happends when you make the dungeon into singleplayer, you get Omni-core which not many found that challanging.
 
Then the part not to be able to wear raiding gear outside raiding... I'm already managing and maintaining 4 gear sets, to manage 6 of them would be hell so lets not go there shall we.	
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{| class="blockquote"
to answer your question I have done all the Shiphands, and very much enjoyed them, and no I didnt get a sigle upgrade of gear.  that point being past whats next?  I like the content but something more challenge that would allow me to upgrade and progress because I would need better gear to complete them would be awesome.
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{| class="blockquote"
I personally love the shiphands! they are great win, and i hope they do more progressive versions of them that are more challenging and thus give better rewards.   maybe even an epic Shiphand quest or two for better gear.  even though I don't always play with 19 other people its still and MMO and there are people to socialize with.  might even team up.  the multiplayer aspect of MMOs is that there are massive amounts of people online, not that you have to team up with all of them.  MMOs have always had solo content I would just like to see that aspect of the game go a little farther.  making it progressive. add the next several tiers of solo instances like shiphands where solo players can get some good gear, and then come back and blow through dailies like where nothing.  I know this is contrary to the idea that raiders with the best gear are the only ones that can dominate level 50 daily mobs and get all the dailys done in 30min. while non raiders spend hours doing the same quest line because they do not kill as fast.  but maybe a little balance between play styles would be nice.  
 
how about we make PVP gear work for quest and world content that way PVPer only need to farm one set of gear like raiders.  even the difference between PVPers and Raiders a bit.  I know I know raiders would through a fit about that because they work hard for their gear and they deserve the right to dominate in any thing they do. where other play styles could not possibly be as challenging and thus not even come close to deserving the same quality of gear.  or maybe every play style should have challenging content and a chance to progress to the top level of gear.  not that every one would get all the free gear they want, you still have to work hard for PVP gear at the top levels.  solo should be no different crafting should be no different. the gear is not worth it if you don't have a challenge to get it. but that doesn't mean raid for it or suffer with out it.  
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{| class="blockquote"
Always?  You'll need to explain how and why.  ALL MMO content is eventually invalidated by gear. And what if the solo content included enemies that were challenging and had stats appropriate for raid level gear?   
----
			
Before I answer to some people below I also want to address several others that came up with the "I paid the same sub as the guy next to me, why can't I have the same gear ?" or something similar.
 
This is a fallacy. Nowhere in the entire world of MMOs are companies saying your sub cover the fact everyone will get the same gear. The sub fee is to let you create a character and enter the world. What you choose to do with those "tools" is up to you. If you don't want to go kill the big monster that requires 5 to 20, it's your freedom to not do so, but don't come complain, you've been given the same tools as everyone else : you just chose to not use them...
 
 
 
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[...].  and please try to explain why group content is always going to be harder, cause no one else in this thread has been able to do so.  [...]
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okay all trolling aside now.
 
the whole i am not a no lifer i have kids and a wife and the hardest job in the world and a social life outside of the game is really getting on my nerves.
 
people always say they dont have time or that a set schedule to raid would suck because they dont want to build their lives around it.
 
NEWS FLASH
 
you dont need to raid 7 days a week, you dont need to attend every raid. you can join a 2 hours a day 2 day a week guild. it can even be 1 hour a day and 2 days a week. you can even tell your guild "hey i cant make mon-friday because im not a nerd" you can even say "hey guys cant make it tonight family stuff". these are all options to you.
 
also you can complete GA in 4 hours and you can complete DS in under 6 hours.
 
you want the cool kid gear? why? its only needed for raiding anyways.
 
if you enjoy raiding you will raid and you will get raid gear. if you dont enjoy raiding why would you want the raid gear? cause it visually looks cool? so you can speed clear non-raid content? there really is no point.
 
if you literally only want raid gear so your stats are higher and have no other reason i have to say you are crazy. there are only 2 reasons to want raid gear...
 
1. it looks cool
2. it allows you to raid better
 
any other reason is completely invalid. what you guys should be asking for is a cooler cosmetic not for CRB to rework an entire system or create an entire new system for solo players. i can dig harder solo content but there are huge problems with it. the first problem would be balance between classes, no one wants to have to play a different class so they can test the limits of their solo content ability.
 
side-note: the reason why raids are scheduled is because when you try to get 20 people all together to play at once not only does your life's scheduel need to have a window 19 other people need to have that same window. everyone has time for this game the problem is finding that window with 20 other people. that isnt CRBs fault nor should an mmo be built around the crazy notion that everyone only plays 30min at a time once a week. are we forgetting the RPG aspect of mmorpg? we do stuff we get rewarded, you dont do stuff you dont get rewarded. you aint getting a trophy for track if you only play basket ball. you aint getting raid gear if you only do pvp.
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and here i was sitting in my chair thinking because wildstar is an mmorpg that means it must appeal to the majority of all gamers in existence, instead of think that it is just another type of genre which has its own demographic. popular fps's like call of duty dont need to adhere to some sort of demographic because they arent Massively Multiplayer like wildstar.
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i posted in the hello kitty island adventure forum asking for them to a more blood and gore to their online battle arena
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Raids don't have to complete the instance on a timer and don't have to go perfectly to have a whole bucketload of rewards tossed their way. What you just described would destroy raids if it were required for raiding just as quickly as it would destroy dungeons if it were required for dungeons.
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Summary of perspectives for the people just joining the conversation
I’m trying very hard to show each side without being bias let me know if I succeeded.
 
 
Side 1:
-Solo content can never be as challenging as raid content
-Solo instances / Solo Raids should never get top end gear
- Challenging solo content would hurt raid and thus the game
- People that want more challenging solo content should play another genre
- Only raid gear should have advantages for open world content because it is PVE based
 
Side 2:
-Solo content can be as challenging as raid content
- Any challenging content should allow a player to progress toward top end gear
- Diversity in MMOs would strengthen the genre
- If every one that plays solo left the game there would not be enough people left to have the game
- There should be equality between the play styles in open world content
 
Side 3:
Have not really heard from PVPers any one got an opinion?
Do PVPers think PVP gear should = Raid gear in open world content?
Do PVPers think that Raid gear should have advantages in PVP over beginner PVPers without raid gear?	
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Recap of my personal views:
MMOs need diversity in ways to achieve top end gear: Raid/PVP/Solo/Crafting
All types of gear should give advantages to its specific playstyle, but all be equal in open world content.
Each play style should be uniquely challenging and one should not be easier or harder than any of the others.	
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This is a very important topic that we should all address.
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Exclusively multiplayer? What do you call ship missions, the entire leveling process of quests, almost every challenge, and crafting?    We get that you have a very narrow view of what an MMO should be. But maybe you should try expanding your limited scope a little bit.  Consider what a game COULD be, instead of what you think it SHOULD be. 
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Summary of perspectives for the people just joining the conversation
I’m trying very hard to show each side without being bias let me know if I succeeded.
 
 
Side 1:
-Solo content can never be as challenging as raid content
-Solo instances / Solo Raids should never get top end gear
- Challenging solo content would hurt raid and thus the game
- People that want more challenging solo content should play another genre
- Only raid gear should have advantages for open world content because it is PVE based
 
Side 2:
-Solo content can be as challenging as raid content
- Any challenging content should allow a player to progress toward top end gear
- Diversity in MMOs would strengthen the genre
- If every one that plays solo left the game there would not be enough people left to have the game
- There should be equality between the play styles in open world content
 
Side 3:
Have not really heard from PVPers any one got an opinion?
Do PVPers think PVP gear should = Raid gear in open world content?
Do PVPers think that Raid gear should have advantages in PVP over beginner PVPers without raid gear?
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I'm a pretty much exclusive pvp'er and frankly I'm fine with the way things are with the gear, and how they're addressing the legendary gear vs 1800 gear. It's absolutely ridiculous atm how a person in legendary gear can smash an 1800 geared player in seconds with their burst, but give them a few 1v1's and it's easy to pick them off. (Watching a DS geared warrior flail about once his innate is gone not knowing how to kill someone who knows how to pvp is funny)
 
Other than that, I'm happy with my gear. I have no need to get better gear, as I can melt adds in the open world and in dungeons and if I wanted to progress my gear desperately, I would happily go and create a raid team (that is actually what I am doing right now in my guild) and raid.	
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This is ridiculous. Single player content in an MMO is NOT a step forward. There are games providing this kind of experience plenty already, in a different genre. Go play them.
 
 
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I'm a pretty much exclusive pvp'er and frankly I'm fine with the way things are with the gear, and how they're addressing the legendary gear vs 1800 gear. It's absolutely ridiculous atm how a person in legendary gear can smash an 1800 geared player in seconds with their burst, but give them a few 1v1's and it's easy to pick them off. (Watching a DS geared warrior flail about once his innate is gone not knowing how to kill someone who knows how to pvp is funny)
 
Other than that, I'm happy with my gear. I have no need to get better gear, as I can melt adds in the open world and in dungeons and if I wanted to progress my gear desperately, I would happily go and create a raid team (that is actually what I am doing right now in my guild) and raid.
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I believe it is possible to creat solo content that is as challenging and time consuming as raids.
 
I just don't think it would be easy, nor would many people do it. I'm sure some would, but I suspect it would be even less that the number of Raiders. At least when you are spending time wiping in raids you have other people to joke with. Doing it alone sounds very lonely.
 
The natural features of MMOs will leverage group play to add complexity to encounters. This is a strength of the genre. Trying to compete with single player games is foolhardy, I think.	
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raiders represent a tiny subset of the customerbase.
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I went through and cleaned this thread up a little in order to keep it constructive and on topic.
 
Keep Rule #1 in mind as you continue the discussion: 
 
 
 
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1. We Won't Always Agree: You are welcome to disagree with anything you are exposed to on the WildStar forums. There will be a lot of things to disagree with, both amongst yourselves, and with the Carbine Development and Community teams. And, that’s okay! Just remember to keep your disagreements respectful, courteous, and polite.
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Side1:
It's fine if it can't be as challenging, but no one is saying to not make challenging solo content
I'm not saying it shouldn't be top end gear period, just saying it shouldn't be as powerful as the raid top end gear.
It would hurt raiding if you made it's gear on level with raid gear.
No, people that think that the top end solo content rewards should equal top end raid gear, thus making solo gear the ultimate gear, should find a solo game, this is an MMO, solo should never trump group.
Don't know that anyone was saying that at all.  Solo content top end gear would have advantages over solo content of course, raid gear obviously would too, PvP gear is difficult to balance for that.
 
Side2:
Don't know if it can or not, but should it really be?  This is an MMO after all.  Yes, everyone in an MMO will engage in "solo" content at one point or another(whether they do it solo or with a group is a different story), but that doesn't necessarily mean solo content should be on par with group content in an MMO.
Yes, top end gear for the content.
Diversity would, but making solo on par with group wouldn't(this is an MMO).
Maybe, maybe not.  Not everyone that plays solo content are strictly solo players.
 
Side3:
PvP gear should be viable in OW, because let's face it, PvP isn't a money maker and PvP players need to get gold somehow since they do need to repair and rune just like PvE'ers do.
PvE gear should not have advantages over PvP gear in PvP instances.
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i dont think it should trump but it should be equal equal to, give an alternative to raiding.  no reason raid gear has to be the only top end gear or the best top end gear. but just like raids i would expect that only the top players would be able to compete in solo content of that level.
just because soloing is on par with group content does not mean there is no reason to have other people around.  its still nice to socialize and even as a solo player I like to group up as well.  I would just like to have more options to get to the end game.
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