108760-how-about-tying-challenges-instead-of-optionals-to-the-attunement-requirement

== Content ==
			
I understand why some people don't like the timers for silver, it sometimes annoys me too - can't take a call, can't get the door, can't even take a *cupcake* or get a drink unless you really out-gear/skill the content.
BUT the attunement process should provide you with at least some content that will improve your capabilities in preparation for raiding and currently optionals in any dungeon do not do that to any extent it's literally kill bosses and click on some intractable items(and don't even get me started on the pitiful joke which is world bosses).
 
However the challenges on some of the boss fights actually require you to both orchestrate and execute more complicated strategies, and most of them with the exception of several timed ones reset every time you wipe.
And yes i know to some "resetting" a fight can be annoying that's fine, the attunement process can easily be amended to "complete all challenges" instead of gain any medal, and track them per challenge(which you already do for achievements) rather than per run the same you do with the "dangerous creatures list" for the world boss phase.
The timed challenges which are not tied to boss fights should be removed tbh or made into optionals, and the optionals should be completely removed from the medal system(with the exception of perhaps gold) and just add additional loot to the table if they are actually turned into something more than just a click these objects during your run.
 
The attunement process sucks for many people because it doesn't punish players for making mistakes but punishes them for not being "leet" enough to just bumrush through the content blind folded, which is what silvers are now for most people who completed them in an organized manner with voice comm's.
The boss fights themselves are not that complicated, but the challenges actually force you to think and act properly(well the "good" ones at least), the SC challenges are actually a perfect example to how the challenges for the attunment should be set. On each boss fight the require you to use the fight mechanics in order to defeat the encounter whether it's to collect all the food and interrupt properly, jump to avoid the smash damage, use grenades to get MOO or use the terraformer overload to get the same.
Other dungeons also got decent challenges on many of the bosses, the odd ones just need to be change to make them more integraded with the fight's mechanics and the "correct" strategy. As the execution of the strategy laid by these challenges will always finish the fight much quicker no matter by how much you outgear the content.
 
By making this change you would actually force people to stop for a second and think, by making allowing them to complete each challenge individually you are removing some of the pressure that so many people complain about in regards to silver/gold timers, and by not just telling them to "waste" how many hours they want in a dungeon and they'll get attuned as long as they kill every boss you steer their expectation to what raids actually require atm and not forcing another nerf plox wave of cries.	
----
			Pretty sure some of the challenges are near impossible and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do it. Like the don't get hit by tornadoes one for Aethros. Without using some exploit, it's almost impossible.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pretty sure some of the challenges are near impossible and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do it. Like the don't get hit by tornadoes one for Aethros. Without using some exploit, it's almost impossible.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pretty sure some of the challenges are near impossible and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do it. Like the don't get hit by tornadoes one for Aethros. Without using some exploit, it's almost impossible.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Change them to something more meaningful then? and also the do not get hit by tornado's is not an that much of an issue I've seen pug's getting the challenge right without trying that hard and still failing on timers.
As i said the skullcanno challenges are a perfect example on how challenges should be as they make you use the fight's mechanics correctly and not just outheal and outdps the content like a headless chicken.
The attunement process should prepare you for content that requires good utilization of fight mechanics and not just stand and spam and currently neither silver nor bronze medals actually do that. One just tells you it's ok aslong as you get enough deeps, the other just tells you it's ok as long as you get enough deeps, you skip all you can, just don't go to pee for the next 40min....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you serious?
----
			
Well when I heard that they would change the attunement process so that you only have to do bronze medals I felt as if then they must make all not time based challenges bronze requirement.
 
Maybe then the people crying about beating timers not beeing skill based would realise that actually if you are "skilled" (aka you are failsafe on challenges) timers are non existent. Well imo its a must to add all challenges to the bronze requirement. Then some should be removed that are kind of gear based like the drift sweaper on Aethros. Things like the tornado challenge on Aethros should definitely be a bronze requirement. And things like lightning reflexes or sky is falling are cupcaking failsafe.. i mean people who cant to that you just dont want to have in raids isnt it?
 
But then what do they add to gold? Just the timebased challenges as a plus is not enough imo. Maybe like something beat the timer and clear every mob in the dungeon. Or... mh a global challenge where u are not alowed to get hit by telegraphs? Ofc those the tank cant dodge like cleaves wouldt count. Idk I just feel that bronze change is a bad thing, but I think those challenges really show if people are "skilled" or not. Im sure everybody agrees on that. Silvers dont require anything else then simple excution.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well as i heard that they would change the attunement process so that you only have to do bronze medals I felt as if then they must make all not time based challenges bronze requirement. Maybe the the people crying about beating timers not beeing skill based would realise that actually if you are "skilled" aka you are failsafe on challenges timers are non existant. Well Imo its a must to add all challenges to the bronze requirement. Then some should be removed that are kind of gear based like the drift sweaper on aethros. Things like the tornado challenge on Aethros should definitely be a bronze requirement. And things like lightning reflexes or sky is falling are cupcaking failsafe.. i mean people who cant to that you just dont want to have in raids isnt it?
 
But then what do they add to gold? Just the timebased challenges as a plus is not enough imo. Maybe like something beat the timer and clear every mob in the dungeon. Or... mh a global challenge where u are not alowed to get hit by telegraphs? Ofc those the tank cant dodge like cleaves wouldt count. Idk I just feel that bronze change is a bad thing, but I think those challenges really show if people are "skilled" or not. Im sure everybody agrees on that. Silvers dont require anything else then simple excution.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm probably as good as I can be by now and yet on average I run (or get pushed by the lightning) into the tornadoes at least once. There's also points where you lag and two strips of lightnings go trough at like 400% times the speed. As a healer, it's not much of a problem as I never let my team down by dying. However if challenges decided the attunements I would be forbidden (by myself) from entering dungeons (as I don't want to be a burden) and I don't think that that's fair.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
As i said if it's that much of an issue change the challenge, as said before SC is a great example and i don't see any challenge you con really blame "lag" on at least the bosses ones, and lag can always be blamed for everything yes it can happen once or twice, but as long as each challenge counts independently for the attunement completion its not an issue.
Heck there are over 20 challenges in dungeons, make a list just like they did with world bosses and ask people to complete 15 or w/e arbitrary number you want this will allow you to complete the attunenment on your own pace, give you a reason to do dungeons you've already completed as they might still count for your attunement process and limit on how much you can blame lady lag on...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you're going to judge someone on making 1 mistake or have lagged, don't expect to see anyone in raids.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That only works if you make challenges personal. Now if anyone from your party hits a tornado, everyone loses it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes thats the way to judge peoples "skills". Understanding mechanics and excuting them properly. And to achive silver you dont have to exploit anything and my groups never did. *shrug* The thing is with bad people failing in dungeons its only 4 others that suffer from that. In raids its 19. And thats why you dont wanna have those in raids. Bad people wont even get through the Archives. And well laggs happen. But then you have to try again.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So raids are personal? if you did "ok" then you get loot? no! a single mistake can and does wipe a raid, raids are not just about max healz and deeps they are about correctly using the game mechanics available in each fight which what most challenges also do.
 
----
			Let's fix shit that needs fixed, this ain't one of em' imo	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
people who just want to raid in large groups, enjoy VOIP parties and get loot
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Change them to something more meaningful then? and also the do not get hit by tornado's is not an that much of an issue I've seen pug's getting the challenge right without trying that hard and still failing on timers.
As i said the skullcanno challenges are a perfect example on how challenges should be as they make you use the fight's mechanics correctly and not just outheal and outdps the content like a headless chicken.
The attunement process should prepare you for content that requires good utilization of fight mechanics and not just stand and spam and currently neither silver nor bronze medals actually do that. One just tells you it's ok aslong as you get enough deeps, the other just tells you it's ok as long as you get enough deeps, you skip all you can, just don't go to pee for the next 40min....
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
i think this is the whole issue. most people think this is raiding. it isnt. that also why people complain about silver timers. because they dont understand that attunement is progressen and progression also can involve beein stuck and failing at the same thing very ( in terms of raids multipy very by at least 2 digit number) often.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Look at my exploit list. Now take away the gear and revert each raider that might have used any of these back to dungeon attunement. 
 
Because if new players are to be punished for going trough the attunement later, then exploiters might as well be punished by their gear and progress being taken away.
 
And to those saying that one member lagging kills the raid - look at who is the world's first for datascape. Guys did it on 17/20 with a few people that DCed entirely. 
----
			
 If you want to have  achievements in life go run a  marathon,  climb a  mountain, invent something.
'
 and if your really really dead set on  hard mmo's go play on the time warped everquest server, i hear thats still stuck in 2003 content	
----
			
They toned it down from Silver to Bronze to make it easier, so more players could finish the attune in a shorter time span. Changing Bronze to require challenge completion, would make Bronze harder than completing the current Silvers, and therefore be totally counter productive.
 
Sounds like you'd probably be happy if the current attunements had required Gold, and even Carbine didn't go that far.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I know all the exploits, the funny thing is that many of them would prevent you from completing challenges so... but NVM if you think that some of the "raiders" who completed the fights just for completion sake and are raiding now in DS can't get attuned otherwise you are somking some good stuff please share.
 
If they got trough it in 6 days and got to wipe no end in raids to fight for world's first, why to force new players to go trough anything more demanding? After all your so called bad players are the ones in raids. 
 
 
Also i would love to see how they killed DS with 17/20 since it's a 40 man raid, some GA bosses can be killed with 16 people or less if you are good enough and that's good.
And how lage can wipe a raid? well X89 big bomb lag =  no raid, or at least no kill if you aren't 6/6 and totally decked since losing a shit ton of platforms cuts the fight.
Lag also means no tank heals, no dispels, tank lags on some enrage mechanics means a dead tank, dps kills them selves, people getting knocked into eggs when other people burst them and the list goes on.
 
and yet if one person wipes, that does nothing. Also isn't there a datascape 20 man? Because as far as I remember both genetic archives and datascape are available in both forms. However genetic 40 man is easier than data 20 man. 
 
 
If you are guilded and still 3/4 do not blame people who "exploited" for you being at 3/4, half of these exploits were closed fairly quickly, some of them like the blind boss in SSM were fixed once they've fixed the issues with telegraphs not being displayed during the hymn phase.
 
the reason why I know of them is because ALL WERE STILL THERE 2 WEEKS AGO. Even when they would list a fix, the fix would actually be a false positive. And if you read any of the European guild threads I'm responsible for being one of the officers in pretty much the only casual guild on Hazak. If I wanted to I could join one of those million starting raiding guilds that fight such tooth and claw for a single person that they agree to carry you trough the dungeons fully. The only way I'm even running dungeons is because I pug. And I'm actually quite happy to say that pugs are improving. 
Today I even seen something kind of sad. A raiding guild was offering to boost players trough leveling and attunement as long as they will raid with them.
 
 
The rest of the exploits were either closed, or the fights were so *cupcake*ing trivial that you wouldn't bother like the Atheros one the kiting the adds part made the fight twice as long as it normal would untill you put them in that corner especially when you had to position everyone before killing it and on the old much shorter timer it meant it was better to do it properly than waste time and dps on add positioning.
You are really collecting straws here for your man, instead of accepting that a multiplayer game should have both collective success and failure finding one challenge you think is impossible and throwing the entire idea of actually using mechanics correctly out of the window as a requirement for raiding.
 
How is not meeting the challenges, not using the mechanics correctly? And how is using those exploits and allowing exploiters to raid using the mechanics correctly? Like what kind of mechanic there is to healing the swordmaiden? The mechanic of throwing one bolster on her?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 If you want to have  achievements in life go run a  marathon,  climb a  mountain, invent something.
'
 and if your really really dead set on  hard mmo's go play on the time warped everquest server, i hear thats still stuck in 2003 content
----
			You gave them an inch, this is them trying to take that mile.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I hear WoW is getting a new expansion go play it. wanting hard games, or games with different attitude towards content isn't a bad thing, some people play CoD some people play ARMA, some people play LoL some play HON/DOTA, some play Diablo 3 some play PoE. Asking for an MMO which is hard isn't a sin, it's not epeen stroking wish fulfillment either, it's just wanting to experience different content than what is present in other games. If i wanted more laid back content group content i would play WoW, if i wanted solo/story focused content i would play SWTOR, if it wanted harsh penalties and global loot i would play a perma death game.
EQ content wasn't hard, it was just camptastic before the instant content was introduced(past WoW), camping for 8 hours to get a mob isn't my cup of tea, i also don't need to have to be forced to play a 15 year old game just because you feel entitled to get easy content while 90% of MMO's out there offer the same.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They toned it down from Silver to Bronze to make it easier, so more players could finish the attune in a shorter time span. Changing Bronze to require challenge completion, would make Bronze harder than completing the current Silvers, and therefore be totally counter productive.
 
Sounds like you'd probably be happy if the current attunements had required Gold, and even Carbine didn't go that far.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
that wasnt the openers suggestion. it was my opinion on the changes they anounced. i guess dr;tl .. what u are saying is just stuipid im sorry. more people finishing attunements faster is a bad thing. people cant even play the dungeons.. :( why cant people just enjoye and learn the game and quit wanting to rush everything. they will hit a cupcaking wall in ga anyways.
----
			Then the will cry for nerfs to GA and history (attunement nerfs) shows carbine will cave like a Chilean mine.  Then they hit the next wall and the circle continues until you're playing cupcaking WoW with a different coat of paint.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And that's why I have 3/4 silvers. 
But try telling a pug to (before the fix) do the last boss of SC properly or to do the firs and the fire boss of SSM properly now. 
 
Now let's list problems that existed early on:
 
Stormtalon:
 
first boss could be made to not to do anything if you interrupt just before "kill the 4 adds" around him stage
Aetheros throw back could have been negated with any jump back ability
Jumping puzzle right after aetheros, no need to run to Stormtalon
As long as the tank continues moving slightly towards the boss, the tank can't be hit, so effectively a DPS can tank
 
Kel Voreth 
 
the hardest, mid boss - you could interrupt the chase phase or negate it entirely while standing on a rock
if when he tethers everyone you leave the tank tethered, he doesn't do much, allowing the DPS to burst while the healer focuses on tank
skipping all the optionals before the third boss - if everyone telleported home and telleported back right after the 2nd boss, all optionals would insta complete and it would also send you to the third boss graveyard, allowing you to save running time
last boss - if you would stand right at the wall none of the blades could get you
 
Skullcano:
 
First optional can be perma stunlocked by interrupting its eating stage. No more pesky totems and short interrupt times!
Last boss you could have done solely while standing on the platform, not taking damage from anything
 
Swordmaiden 
 
First boss can still be kited into a courner, where the aoes won't do damage to anyone and if the tank tanks it away from others, the DPS can just safely DPS
fire boss, most of the fire stages can be skipped by standing on the platform
 
And that's only the ones that I know of. There were many many more and many today's "raiders" have used them.
----
			
"kill the game"? this game hasnt even really come to life! not every game needs several million subs. and not everygame is for everyone. game for everyone are mostly really easy and get boring very fast. its just that wildstar does things in an oldschool kind of way. most people arent. im  not surprised this shit storm happens. but the truth is that all those newages playes used to free progression and free loot and stuff should better spend time learning to play then complaining in the forums.
 
they will be back here anyway when they begin to fail in ga. what u are saying is basicly neft the game or it will die. imo its the other way around let the core player base stay and let the game flourish.
 
btw a mod should move this thread to the dungeons forum..	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"kill the game"? this game hasnt even really come to life! not every game needs several million subs. and not everygame is for everyone. game for everyone are mostly really easy and get boring very fast. its just that wildstar does things in an oldschool kind of way. most people arent. im  not surprised this shit storm happens. but the truth is that all those newages playes used to free progression and free loot and stuff should better spend time learning to play then complaining in the forums.
 
they will be back here anyway when they begin to fail in ga. what u are saying is basicly neft the game or it will die. imo its the other way around let the core player base stay and let the game flourish.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
WoW doesn't charm me due to old combat, sorry. You're free to ask for whatever you want from your guild's raiders, but you're not free to ask for something that even the current raiders not all could do. So if you want to go all elitist, go to dungeons with your joiners and tell them that if they fail a challenge you're kicking them from the guild. But don't touch my game, thank you.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 If you want to have  achievements in life go run a  marathon,  climb a  mountain, invent something.
'
 and if your really really dead set on  hard mmo's go play on the time warped everquest server, i hear thats still stuck in 2003 content
----
			
ah *cupcake*me. this is getting far of topic im out of here. i think its clear why changing challenges to optionals required for bronze would be a very good thing. also its a fact that people who complain about wildstar beeing to hard dont cant really enjoye what makes wildstar wildstar. because then they would play and learn and succed without having to much trouble.
 
issue is "fastfastnow" with that attitude u will fail in pretty much everything. not only wildstar, not only games. bye hf i hope this thread doesnt end in a of topic flamewar. ill run some more dungeons and have some fun	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or how about delaying a your raiding by another week while you make sure everyone can do the content? you know whats happening now people boost, you can boost 1-2 people with a DPS, Tank, Healer that cleared and outgear the content easy. If you are boosting only one then that person can dirtnap on each boss fight and you still get silver, I've done that too much to get enough people to raid and the result isn't stellar. Making everyone pitchin in at least using mechanics ensures that everyone that got through it is capable of adapting to each fight and not just be a loot carrier.
 
You know how you don't get hit by Aetheros tornadoes? You don't run. You allow the boosters to be 1 DPS short. So it won't change anything about people being boosted.
 
And not killing even optional bosses AKA named trash not to mention any boss if they even manage to get pass trash wont? let me guess you are PUGing dungeons and you expect to PUG raids too?
 
I might as well. There are guilds on my server hiring pugs. There are guilds that want you to play with them, but not necessarily join them. That's how a few members from my guild are raiding in the first place. 
 
 
P.S.
CODEX is on exile Hazak it's a social guild and in top 10 so...
 
Codex is social? That made me laugh. Nothing about their recruitment is social. Nothing about their guild management is social. There's the required amount of hours that you have to meet weekly, there's a required amount of content passed, for Fs sake they even threw 40 level 50 members for not filling out full excel spread sheets about their gear, their claimed drops in raids, etc etc. And they're also one of the most exploity guilds in the game. Hell their PvP side outright left due to PVE exploiting and boosting in Arenas. I can cheer for VOTH, but I'll never cheer for Codex. 
----
			If it was strictly personal(so one person *cupcake*ing up doesn't mean you're boned) and were similar to Aethros, sure. With the challenges as they are now? Ehhh...	
----
			Well its not about making inaccesable. Its about making it count. Making it mean something. Its about making people prove that they understand the game and are able to execute what the game tells them to do. ;) And as far as I see there is nothing in ga u wouldnt know from dungeon ;)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If it was strictly personal(so one person *cupcake*ing up doesn't mean you're boned) and were similar to Aethros, sure. With the challenges as they are now? Ehhh...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't want your achievements; I want mine.  I'm happy you find running a marathon, climbing a mountain and inventing "things" are achievement worthy to you.  They may even socially help you get accepted into some rare, elite group of individuals.  My achievements won't even help me make a new friend for the most part, but they're important to me and to Carbine as well since this is the direction they took to develop the game.  You leave my achievements alone and I'll leave yours alone.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
  fun fact Carbine don't know what makes an MMO a  success, or haven't you noticed that in less than 3 months they have backtracked on almost every one of the pillars that they built wildstar upon. What im saying is you are the sort of blind fool that help lead carbine down the road of failure
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Pretty sure some of the challenges are near impossible and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do it. Like the don't get hit by tornadoes one for Aethros. Without using some exploit, it's almost impossible.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And that's why I have 3/4 silvers. 
But try telling a pug to (before the fix) do the last boss of SC properly or to do the firs and the fire boss of SSM properly now. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You're puging SSM and complaining about raid attunement?  Why does it even matter if you don't have a guild that can fun silvers?  Its not like you're going to pug GA.  Find a community of good players and this solves your issue.  I've run countless silver dungeons in an effort to get my guild in GA... and now it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
3. Hazak has a whole business around pugging raids, as most guilds are at 17/20 or 16/20 raiders.
----