124218-people-are-not-subbing-page-2

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Leylin, some people pride themselves on critical thinking. Some people pride themselves on being mean on the internet forums. Dont sweat the general discussion heroes, they're absolutely clueless.
 
You're in the lions den of irrationality here. You're much better off slaying them with a spear than you are speaking to them.
 
Metaphorically, of course.	
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In your opinion ;)
 
What he says makes sense....IN MY OPINION.
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Leylin, some people pride themselves on critical thinking. Some people pride themselves on being mean on the internet forums. Dont sweat the general discussion heroes, they're absolutely clueless.
 
You're in the lions den of irrationality here. You're much better off slaying them with a spear than you are speaking to them.
 
Metaphorically, of course.
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Given this post and one in a different thread, I think I got under Eclips's skin.
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Metaphorically I hope?
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Hey.
 
Both my wife and I recently subbed after the 10 day trial, just sayin'  :P
 
You can bet we'd be out of here very very quickly if they started charging for exclusive housing stuff... I know it's "cosmetic" but it's a very important part of the game for us as my wife loves it and dungeons are just too hard for her. It just wouldn't be fair to charge us more for playing around with housing while the dungeon running peeps (for example) get to enjoy their preferred part of the game for free.
 
I know the game is suffering from some pop. issues but as long as it isn't in immediate shutdown danger IMHO it'd be better to keep improving the game and slowly getting more players in than turning it to F2P or B2P and then have half of Carbine working on monetization...
 
What Carbine could try, instead of locking people away from content, is simply adding a real cash way to pay for things that are already in the game and can be paid with plat, such as chop shop (say a 1 week chop shop pass that allows you to change whatever you want in your character for that entire week without paying any gold) or costume versions of in-game armors (as long as they don't nerf the ability to get those same armors through in-game methods!). Not sure if this would be an issue for the tradeskillers though.
 
Cheers.	
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Thread starts with disclaimer "this is not a F2P thread"
 
Proceeds to insinuate F2P.
 
Seems legit.
 
People are subbing BTW. This is according to anecdotal observations though. We can get a better look at that when the financial report cones out though.	
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Two things.
 
1) The passive aggressiveness here, wanting to insult someone but not wanting to be given a bad name/warning/ban. Its sooo childish.
2) The thread title, people are not subbing, I sub. Sure I tell others to pay for a CREDD, but its easier to get £9 IRL than it is to get like 40 plat :-P	
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Hmm I just bought the game and subbed for 2 months so at least some are subbing, but I have the feeling this is just another F2P troll thread
 
F2P doesn't save games, all the ones that changed to F2P or B2P are still "dying" as they were and the quality of updates has gone downhill (LOTRO,TSW,GW2 for example)
 
if you don't have 12€ a month, you might wanna spend more time looking for a job and less playing, just saying	
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Hmm I just bought the game and subbed for 2 months so at least some are subbing, but I have the feeling this is just another F2P troll thread
 
F2P doesn't save games, all the ones that changed to F2P or B2P are still "dying" as they were and the quality of updates has gone downhill (LOTRO,TSW,GW2 for example)
 
if you don't have 12€ a month, you might wanna spend more time looking for a job and less playing, just saying
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lol I love that logic (not sarcasim) 12 euros, or £9, or w/e the americans are paying is not a lot. I do however disagree with TSW, that is one fantastic game and I love playing it when not on Wildstar <3
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Hey folks,
 
Obviously this is a passionate topic, one we have seen many times before in various forums. Lets try to remain constructive in our discussion and keep on topic please. 
 
Thank you
- Team WildStar 	
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Pony in a bunny suit? Unheard of!
 
Thanks for squashing that other thread, I'm pretty sure the weekend mod(s) were swallowed by a chompacrabra.	
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Even if this game doubles in population, it still isn't enough.  If this game doesn't come on the map as anything but a niche MMO, you can kiss the longevity goodbye.  This has the potential to be the most popular MMO in the market, it just hasn't reached that level.
 
Slowly growing a game like this only satisfies the people who have stuck around.  This game needs to explode back into popularity, back into the levels of hype it once was.  It will do those things, provided b2p/f2p happens, PvP gets huge fixes, another raid instance is released etc.
 
We have 1 server in NA guys. 1 server. That's it.
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I love the armchair game developers and company owners we have here. So the only way for this game to "explode back into popularity" is for it to go b2p/f2p.  Maybe you should really open up your own game company because it sounds like you have it all figured out.
 
b2p/f2p is the worse thing that happened to mmo's.  But yeah have fun spending even more a month on cash shops when all that stuff you would have bought would be free in-game with a monthly sub.  Oh and to add, hope you enjoy the main focus on the cash shop by the devs because that is exactly where the focus would be.  Forget about quick bug fixes, quality content, quality drops, more raids in a timely manor, pvp fixed, etc.  If you haven't played ToR, go ask some of the players there about how fast their content is coming and the quality of it.  Their latest pay expansion had about 8-10 hrs of new content to hit max level.  And that is going at an average pace.  Very sad state due to f2p.
 
So yeah, bwp/f2p is not what this game needs nor what it needs to hit your "exlode back into popularity", it takes what it is doing now and make the needed adjustments for the better. 
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			Ok, hear me out: Wildstar goes completely to a FaceBook game! It'll go crazy. 	
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If I am an armchair developer, then you are too, with your black and white statement toward the opposite.
 
Also, you say things like, "forget quick bug fixes, quality content, quality drops, more raids in a timely manner,pvp fixed, etc," and I'll simply tell you that in my opinoin, I'm not receiving that anyway, with monthly sub.
 
You see, from my perspective as a primarily pvp player, member of the community, and itching content creator,  the effort I would be putting in does not match the effort I feel I'm receiving with my monthly subscription.
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You see, from my perspective as a primarily pvp player, member of the community, and itching content creator,  the effort I would be putting in does not match the effort I feel I'm receiving with my monthly subscription.
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			When I talk about Wildstar to other gamers, half the time they haven't heard about it.  There is certainly an untapped gamer population out there.	
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No, not really.  You said b2p/f2p is the only way to get the popularity back etc.  And you are completely wrong.  So how does that make me an armchair developer/owner?  You aren't working for WildStar.  You don't know how much money they are making or where their subs are at.  The game can keep growing with their quality drops and the word of mouth will continue to grow.  You do know one of the most important and most influential forms of marketing are?  Word of Mouth.  It does a lot more than a commercial, ad, etc.  A friend sees a commercial for something and may buy.  They talk to you and you tell them it was horrible because you tried it.  They don't buy it then. 
 
You are strictly pvp?  Well that I will agree with you on that the pvp for this game is one of the worst.  BUT, from the sounds of it the next drop will have a lot for pvp.  Going f2p/b2p isn't going to help your pvp situation any better.  In fact it will be a lot worse.  They won't put hardly any time in pvp if they went f2p.  At least right now as a sub game, they are having a drop for it.
 
But to each is own.  I personally think f2p games are horrible and ruin the game it once was.  ie. ToR as a prime example.
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The concepts in this game are, in my opinion, very outdated (20 man raiding, faction barriers, horrible world zone design / daily zones.)
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Don't know if I really want to wade into another thread like this, but I want to say- I get why you feel that way being a PvP player. However, there are many of us PvE players who really do feel like we are getting updates worth our sub. If Carbine were to mess up the PvE game (which I think going F2P would do) in order to try and correct the PvP aspects, that would be terrible for them.
 
Isn't the better answer for them to either A: just drop PvP altogether or B: bring PvP inline with what has been developed for PvE?
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Problem is that the 20 man raids is one of the best parts of the game. If the best parts of this game are outdated, why wouldn't NCSoft just pull the plug? Why would they try to shift it to PvP where it has NOT shined?
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You know, I like to raid and stuff too. However, I feel like the other pve stuff, world zones, new daily zones etc, are really just updates not worth having.
 
I mean really, drop 5 and levian bay. What's the point? The best thing they could do that zone is make it always flagged for pvp. Otherwise it's just going to sit and decompose like the other daily zones...
 
...and out of curiosity, how would a payment model change mess up the PvE game?
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...and out of curiosity, how would a payment model change mess up the PvE game?
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*sigh*
 
I was going to post something but I'm just going to copy paste from several other threads because I'm sick of typing this over and over.  Wanna know how it'd ruin PvE?  Because Carbine wouldn't be focusing on PvE:
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Are you speaking from experience with ArenaNet?  You've seen the shift?
 
 
Carbine did say most of the players are casuals / soloers.  Both of those things go hand in hand with what people liked in PvP, before it died.  I don't however, see very many people out in the daily zones / doing solo content.
 
If Carbine Studios truly is trying to reach that casual / solo player content.  They'll start adapting their systems to be more like FFXIV, a game that truly funnels everything they do into  story / quality of life for the solo / casual.  The reason I've been posting in the other legendary gear for all posts etc, is because Carbine needs something like a gear progression / vertical progression for the solo player, that matches that of a raider.  The raider still gets to experience the content, but all people get to experience the rewards that this game has to offer.  "High end PvE gear for raiders only," is an awful concept that roadblocks the casual / solo player.  At a certain point, they either start raiding, or they quit.  There is no completion for them.
 
More soloers / casuals = more money = more raid content = more pvp content = more developers = less problems
The only downside is that Carbine Studios has to pick up the pace of their content, as more people will be there to consume it.  That's not a bad thing when you have the money / developers to do it.
 
Everyone wins.
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You'd be surprised how many solo players are pvp'ers. 
 
It's easy to get into, you don't need to rely on a large group of people and is accessible to all.	
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Are you speaking from experience with ArenaNet?  You've seen the shift?
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You'd be surprised how many solo players are pvp'ers. 
 
It's easy to get into, you don't need to rely on a large group of people and is accessible to all.
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We'll have to disagree on this, I don't think it's accessible to get into at all. I would say PVP is the most difficult gameplay to enter when playing any MMO, unless you have fun getting your bum kicked or being carried. :P  There's a skill barrier involved in PVP that doesn't depend on knowledge or muscle memory, unlike raiding.
 
I know that the game's early PVP population was high, used to be all the big servers were PVP ones like Pago/Pergo. So maybe there's more interest than I give credit for. That said, if the gameplay were good enough, why'd the vast majority of PVPers leave after the first month? MOBAs have leaderboards and that's great, but IMO it's the rock solid gameplay that floats them with so many commited players.
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Ah, well let me reiterate.
 
Casual pvp is solo friendly. Rated pvp is more niche, but again if you are queueing arena you don't need to rely on a huge group of people. 
 
And who doesn't love beating people up for fun? :D
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And who doesn't love beating people up for fun? :D
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My casual experience was mired in frustration, and I'm a pretty experienced PVPer. :(   It involved a lot of inattention to objectives, a lot of mass battles that felt like spam (no discernable use of timing for CD abilities), and a lot of what felt like OP classes. The last time I tried a few games these ridiculous Engineer tanks were basically invincible running masks. Quite obnoxious. :lol:
 
I feel like the combat is fun, but the actual PVPness, the design and such, is total blech.
 
edit: Oh, I will say though, when I used to run premades with a guild while leveling, I had a lot more fun. PVP is def more exciting when you win... but then, I tend to think it's a bad idea to judge a game's PVP through the premade lens.
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It's sort of hard not to.  If PVP feels random and disorganized, with no discernable timing, outside a premade... that's probably because it's just not a premade.  Stories from everyone I've heard, in all scales of the game, have made mention that two or three people in a premade working together can be nearly invincible and are orders of magnitude more effective for their teams.  Even in Warplots and BGs, even fire teams working in complementary builds can make an entire team almost unbeatable.  They simply trump any similarly-sized group of individual players.  You don't even have to be that serious about it.  Literally putting together a few random people in a couple minutes and making sure your skills are built to function together make you a force to be reckoned with.
 
Reb Brown dies in Wildstar PVP.
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Well, let me try and hit this topic first:
 
On PvP for a casual / solo player:
 
Practice and Rated PvP appeals to the solo player.   It can consist of 15-30 minute games.  There is a tangible reward at the end of every match (prestige / rng boxes).  You are playing with others, creating rivalries, learning your class / winning and losing in competitive matches.
 
The problems for the solo player, come when they're up against people that 1. severely out gear them, or 2. are ranked much higher than they are.  Wildstar PvP designers produced an easily exploitable king of the hill system. You can see my commentary and suggestions toward that problem in these forums, since July, and most notably and constructively, in August of last year.
 
At release, the gear gap was so large (1200-1800), that 1800 medics were outhealing entire practice battleground / rated battleground teams.  That's a problem we've fixed.
At release, (and today), teams are allowed to queue full premade, into solo queued players.  Unfortunately due to population, we can't make this change right now, but for a solo player to remain competitive and happy, Carbine must limit premade queues to 5 people for rated in one bracket, and 10 person rated team in a second bracket.  Opinions differ here, but that mitigates the steamroll etc.
 
Maps like Halls of the Bloodsword are notorious for that very steamroll. Even as I type this, I just left a game where exiles wouldn't come out of their spawn, because of such at tilted match.  That means they're waiting 15 minutes to finish that match, with no expedited match ending.  That severely discourages the losing team / solo q player.  I have suggest alternate capture nodes for Halls of the Bloodsworn to help with this issue.
 
Most importantly, PvP needs to be a part of the game that rewards the casual and solo player with things that benefit them outside of PvP, as well.  Crafting materials.  XP / renown / guild influence at the rate in which other players get it.  Access to supplemental PvE gear that they can buy over time to experience the other aspects of the game, without being months behind everyone else.
 
Daily zones are fun and exciting for a PvPer, when the reward for PvPing is just as high as doing the dailies.  They're not really otherwise, and are seen as more of a grind.  "Oh gotta do dailies, otherwise I'll be broke, etc."
 
And just as important as those things-- balance.  Balance doesn't have to be perfect for a solo q / casual pvper to like this game.  It just can't have any glaring flaws. Warriors shouldn't be critting people for 8k x 4 in 2 seconds.  Spellslingers shouldn't be wild barraging 10 players with full armor pierce, and slowing them.  Espers shouldn't be CC chaining 5+ people at a time, while also dealing crazy damage.
 
The environment for a casual there, and I don't think that the subset of PvPers is as small as people make it out to be.  I think this game does a poor job of capturing the PvP player's interests.  Other games like GW2 and WoW take that market share not because their PvP is superior or more fun, but because it includes those other aspects.  It grasps the MMO players mindset and rewards them for playing solo q, or joining the group and playing with the team, and it rewards them often, win or lose.	
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Sorry but you're misinformed here.
 
This game already follows a potentially b2p model.  It just requires a 15$-20$ commitment, followed by another 15-20$ a month OR a few hours a week farming.  To most people I think, it's a better use of their time to just pay the 15$.  A more fluid f2p model, or a cash shop introduction designed to bolster income.  My honest opinion is that with each new patch / drop,  they are producing features that favor a sub model.  I think that management is possibly resisting the inevitable here.  It wouldn't surprise me, however, if Wildstar transitioned to full b2p/f2p when they released f2p Wildstar in China.  I'm kind of waiting to see if we ever get a new pvp developer.  Hiring developers is always a good sign.
 
Strictly is not the same as primarily.  Drop 5 is not a PvPers drop.  In fact, I'd say it's something we're actually dreading at this point, LOL.
 
I'd also argue that f2p/b2p would shift more focus to pvp, and away from raids. The concepts in this game are, in my opinion, very outdated (20 man raiding, faction barriers, horrible world zone design / daily zones.)
 
But we'll just have to agree to disagree here.  I think the 15$ a month isn't the barrier, as I know people who spend 15$ like its chump change. A model that lets people 30$ a month for much better content / production?  I think that's a very real and desirable possibility.
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Other games like GW2 and WoW take that market share not because their PvP is superior or more fun, but because it includes those other aspects.  It grasps the MMO players mindset and rewards them for playing solo q, or joining the group and playing with the team, and it rewards them often, win or lose.
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I would say that's a problem though. WoW and DOTA had the best PVP I've come across, and I was able to have plenty of fun solo queuing in both games. :o  Hell, 99% of the hundreds of DOTA games I played were pub solo queues, my rating never went anywhere, and I still thought it was way more satisfying than WS (or any other MMO's PVP since WoW).
 
Suppose that, as I understand it, if a game needs winning/premades to be really fun, that's an indication that the PVP design is lacking. Good PVP should always be its own reward!
 
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Actually, you appear to be the one misinformed and might need to understand what b2p is.
 
Buy to Play is purchasing the game via the store with a hard copy or digital download.  There is no monthly fee.  Let me repeat, no montly fee.  ie. GW2 and now ESO.
 
CREDD is not a form of b2p at all.  The person who purchase this via in-game currency may not be paying actual money to play, but the person who purchased the actual CREDD to sell had to use real money.  So they are basically just paying for that persons sub.  See the difference here with b2p vs not b2p? So no, this isn't even close to a "potential b2p model".
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Ehhh. I'm nodding at a lot of what you've written, makes a lot of sense to me as far as the meta aspects. But I think WoW was a great PVP game well before reward became a serious thing. People loved world PVPing and lackluster rewards from BGs even as far back as Vanilla. I think the sticking point is that, regardless of queues or map design or premade, the PVP combat was actually fun and rewarding for its own sake in WoW. Clearly seeing and responding to combat animations is something most MMOs I've played have completely underestimated and failed... WS is a bit worse in this domain because of all the telegraphs/flashing lights.
 
GW2... I thought that game's PVP was a turd as well, I'm not sure how it got so popular. I think GW2 and WS are the most guilty of "spam-feeling" combat, followed by RIFT and SWTOR, but I like WS's basic free-form combat enough to say it beats all of those games. Especially if you're a healer who dislikes tab-target (I was fine with it in the past, but after coming to WS, I feel I'd be less tolerant of tab-healing).
 
In the end though, I understand your grievances better. Given how popular the PVP servers were when this game launched, I'm still kinda shocked it declined so hard (and in a pretty short window, too). :(
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...and out of curiosity, how would a payment model change mess up the PvE game?
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Actually, you appear to be the one misinformed and might need to understand what b2p is.
 
Buy to Play is purchasing the game via the store with a hard copy or digital download.  There is no monthly fee.  Let me repeat, no montly fee.  ie. GW2 and now ESO.
 
CREDD is not a form of b2p at all.  The person who purchase this via in-game currency may not be paying actual money to play, but the person who purchased the actual CREDD to sell had to use real money.  So they are basically just paying for that persons sub.  See the difference here with b2p vs not b2p? So no, this isn't even close to a "potential b2p model".
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you are also "paying" for the CREDD sub with in game currency if you don't pay then you don't get to play.
GW2 is pure B2P if you do nothing for 10 months you still can go on and play it without any restrictions.	
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More soloers / casuals = more money
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One of the double-edged swords of a high-skill system in team PVP.  Eclips above actually proved a bunch of naysayers calling out class balance somewhat wrong by taking a friend in the two worst classes according to PVP and rocketing through rated arenas.  Everyone says they like having "skill based gameplay", but the other edge of that sword is that if someone doesn't learn the skills, they can become fodder for anyone who puts together even the remotest bit of planning.
 
WoW and DOTA get around that by focusing a lot less on team coordination.  Not that it doesn't exist, but a three-man fire team in Wildstar with a bit of experience and builds set up to complement each other simply supercede everything else in PVP.  I don't pretend to know which direction is better (I played PVP games so long that the magic's just gone), but the only way to make queueing solo a more pleasurable experience is to turn down the learning curve.  As many an EVE hopeful has found out, wanting more depth and skill in your PVP isn't always what you think it is.  Like in the PVE wing of the game, it noticeably notches up the disparity between a premade and a pug when collaborative skill is rewarded that way.  Some people really dislike that, they say they feel pressured to be in a premade.  In PVE, you only do it for a benefit against the rest of the game; PVE has a set standard difficulty.  In PVP, your benefit is against the opposing team, which has a self-regulating bell curve of difficulty.
 
The only thing to really help that is removing some of the rewards for collaboration and work, limiting the effectiveness and scale you can work with others in to provide advantages.
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Ehhh. I'm nodding at a lot of what you've written, makes a lot of sense to me as far as the meta aspects. But I think WoW was a great PVP game well before reward became a serious thing. People loved world PVPing and lackluster rewards from BGs even as far back as Vanilla. I think the sticking point is that, regardless of queues or map design or premade, the PVP combat was actually fun and rewarding for its own sake in WoW. Clearly seeing and responding to combat animations is something most MMOs I've played have completely underestimated and failed... WS is a bit worse in this domain because of all the telegraphs/flashing lights.
 
GW2... I thought that game's PVP was a turd as well, I'm not sure how it got so popular. I think GW2 and WS are the most guilty of "spam-feeling" combat, followed by RIFT and SWTOR, but I like WS's basic free-form combat enough to say it beats all of those games. Especially if you're a healer who dislikes tab-target (I was fine with it in the past, but after coming to WS, I feel I'd be less tolerant of tab-healing).
 
In the end though, I understand your grievances better. Given how popular the PVP servers were when this game launched, I'm still kinda shocked it declined so hard (and in a pretty short window, too). :(
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I'm going to try and respond to your edited post here, so that I didn't miss it.  I'm slowly reaching the point of spreading too thin with all of the posting I've been doing the past few days.  (Damn gf's best friend being needy and taking up all of my gf time!)
 
I believe Wildstar PvP captures a market share of people that enjoy MMOs as well as PvP, and don't like to invest themselves across multiple games.  People get attached to their character / characters.  People get attached to their online persona / their online friends.  People play MMOs for all different sorts of reasons, competition and mmo strategy being one of them.
 
The thing that Wildstar apart from other mmos is that it feels like good PvP.   When I swing my sword, I don't have to have a target, because I'm swinging a huge sword. Guild Wars 2 captures that in a sense, but has its own issues.  Where WoW trends to all classes having similar but different skinned / animated abilities and CC, Wildstar feels as if each class feels fluid, and is different.
 
For instance, with the warrior, swinging their sword cleaves damage.  Kicking is an instant kick to the face that knocks someone down.  Leap is a jumping ability that actually does what you'd expect it to do.  GCDs change based on the ability, etc.  The combat is fast paced, and each role servers a purpose, and has its own strengths and weaknesses.
 
Honestly though EsperXIV, the thing that keeps me here is the potential.  Some people see warplots, and see a massive zergfest which just jumps from point to point.  I see potential for roaming groups of 5 to go for points, PvP competitive PvP at each point, and then regroup when it is time to invade the base.  I see the potential for large scale team play aspects that aren't being realized yet.  I see ways to bust the zerg ala DAoC / Warhammer Online, and I see ways of competitive small scale PvP like WoW 2v2/3v3 arenas all in Warplots.
 
2v2 / 3v3 arena have the potential to be ultra competitive.  With the availability of AMP / Ability Points now, easy change AMPs and LAS, etc, matches can get very interesting and very meta.  People have the opportunity to try new things.    There is no more boosting to 1800, then selling that account on playerauctions under the same account name you stream wildstar with.  There is no more grinding noobs just for gear.
 
Right now, combat is a little too fast paced.  Movement speed is just a little bit too high, and TTK is certainly about 20% too low.  Damage and healing need to move back toward release values, and PvE gear like Genetic Failsafe need a trade-off, or that PvE one that shield overloads for 10s need to go from PvP.  Cleanse needs a priority system change.
 
Further, this game is entertaining to watch. Screen shake makes it feel like you're bashing the target in, or getting lit up yourself.  Battlegrounds provide goal oriented pvp combat.
 
I'm sorry this isn't a better description of why I like this game, but I'm sure I'll have another one fleshed out soon in another post somewhere.
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This has been discussed to death. Quick version is that right now, Carbine gets money from creating content enough to justify the average player paying a sub. Under PvE they get it by creating content that focuses on the whales who will fund everyone else's ability to play.
 
And to quote Vic: "I don't want to be milked".
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			I am very happy subbing. For the cost of a .. LUNCH  I have unlimited entertainment EVERY MONTH. 	
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My $0.02.
 
Carbine is well aware of what needs to happen. Certain forum regulars will have new players believe the state of the game is healthy and profitable. They will have you believe it will slowly but surely usher new people in. They're wrong, and their input is nothing but detrimental to the game in the long run, as has been proven if you look at certain post histories during pivotal parts of population decline.
 
Wildstar needs to adopt a new payment model, one that is profitable and makes entrance into the game easy, fun and engaging. They need to do away with some of the silly uphill battles within the game that gates content, gear etc. They also to need to make the game more alt friendly, as with the LAS in place, there are only so many options for one toon before you're itching for something more.
 
And most importantly, they need to cater to the modern mmo base. We need world pvp, be it in some model like WvW (warplots, but the the stipulations for entering and making it work with the games population is laughable, come on devs), World PvP zones with PvE and PvP gear rewards, boons, buffs etc so that it encompasses the entire player base and forces them to interact. Hell I could go on and on but I would be beating a dead horse because Eclips has beat it to death already.
 
All in all, I love this game and want to see it grow. I am subbed, and will remain subbed until whatever happens. Pick up the ball Carbine, this is fully in your court.
 
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It seems you have had bad experiences with f2p / b2p / cash shop, and I don't blame you. They get a bad rep, with all of the farmville / clash of clans / nickel and dime games out there.
 
The true essence of a cash shop that is successful does not "milk," players. That's the sign of a bad system. Here again, I will cite my experience with games that are not subscription based, are successful, and have left me with good impressions.
 
League of Legends. What would that game be without being f2p, and having an amazing consistent stream of skins / animations in their store. They've captured the power of micro-transactions and cash shop, by making (almost) everything available to everyone. All features are available for a free user. All new champions are available with IP (ingame earned currency.) All runes, talents, pages, etc, can all be bought with time playing rather than cash. The things that they've made exclusive to real cash, are big reskins and model changes. Things that are purely cosmetic, optional, and cost a lot of developer time. League of Legends and Riot Games not only captured a huge market share of gamers, they've also used their profits to CREATE an entire culture and expose so many people to the game and gamers. Did you know that they are pioneering new legal contracts that have to deal with gamers, the media, people under contract of the service they're playing, as well as on their independent content creation? Did you know that they have a fantasy football version of league of legends?
 
They've been wildly successful off of a f2p game, that I personally have still on my hard drive that I play maybe once or twice a month. Sometimes I play a few games, sometimes I come in and buy a skin I like, and sometimes I don't. But I have a friend who owns every single league of legends skin since release that has been available to the public. That guy has spent WAY more than 15$ a month on that. But he's the kind of guy who spent 1000$s on magic the gathering, so 15$ a month was never a big deal to him.
 
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Then there's planetside 2. The sequel to one of my favorite MMOs ever, planetside 1. The game can be downloaded and played right now, for free. Everything is available to the newest player, right away. Having everything at your disposal at once takes a lot of time, or a lot of cash. Being ultra competitive might ask you to spend a little bit of money on things. Planetside 2 offers a subscription type of thing in its cash shop. It offers a 15$ a month set of subscriber benefits that make your things like vehicle pulls quicker. If you suck, it makes it easier on you. If you're great at the game, it gives you the opportunity to achieve your goals quicker. It allows you to have a more productive time spent in game. It makes your 2 hour sessions compare to a 4 hour play session.
 
Best of all is you don't even need to do that. Realistically, I've probably spent over 300$ on that game, and I never felt milked. I just wanted to have a better use of my playtime.
 
With Wildstar, on the other hand, I do feel milked. I feel as if I'm milked everytime I want to dye a costume. I feel as if I'm milked everytime I have to buy a new dye for a new character. I feel milked when I have to spend 3-4 platinum just to re-roll a rune in a piece of pvp gear, just because I want customization that comes basic in every other pvp game ever.
 
I feel milked when I want to do PvE, because I have to go spend hours in dungeons or w/e catching up to the gear and raid with everyone else in the up to date content.
 
Honestly, I've felt better about those games because I've had the choice to spend money when I've felt the content was what I wanted. I never felt like I had to compete for development time.
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Carbine is well aware of what needs to happen. Certain forum regulars will have new players believe the state of the game is healthy and profitable. They will have you believe it will slowly but surely usher new people in. They're wrong, and their input is nothing but detrimental to the game in the long run, as has been proven if you look at certain post histories during pivotal parts of population decline.
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And you think that it's right and beneficial for others to come to the forums and bleat out over and over that the game is dying, it's destined to go F2P, and other "The sky is falling" type of predictions?
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And you think that it's right and beneficial for others to come to the forums and bleat out over and over that the game is dying, it's destined to go F2P, and other "The sky is falling" type of predictions?
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I don't really know how you can apply morals to this kind of thing...
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I don't really know how you can apply morals to this kind of thing...
 
As to your other question. I do see it as harmful to go around saying "everything is fine! Do not look at the $ numbers! The last drop was awesome, and our guild had new players apply! They finally turned it around, WS is growing!". In short, you can't fix something if you don't recognize it's a problem.
 
As far as the opposite goes, I see a lot of people trying to bring up the dire situation the game is in with the intent to discuss what to do about it, but time after time getting derailed by those saying that everything's fine, the population drop was WoW's fault, the game is already good enough after the last drop, all we need are players to see how great WS is. That's patently untrue, WS is still loosing interest daily. Not recognizing that is what is stopping us from actually making the next step, trying to figure out what we can do to help.
 
So no, the "sky is falling" predictions are not "wrong" nor are they harmful. Once we can actually move past acceptance we can start working on the problem, but as long as people keep covering their eyes saying that everything is fine that will never happen.
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I don't how you thought I was addressing those calling for the game to go f2p (though I go into why that is not a good idea here), I was trying to answer his question quite directly and support my view. I don't want to be branded as an empty doomsayer, but I actually looked it up and compared WS' numbers to Tabula Rasa. TR earned 5 mil from it's November launch to the end of the year, and was put to the block for it. The professional estimate for WS' Q1 2015 is 1.5 mil. There is no way 1.5 even covers employee salaries, let alone be profitable. It doesn't get much worse than that. 
 
For the moment Wildstar more or less has immunity from shutdown, as the game is being launched in China with unknown alterations. CRB basically has that as their final deadline. If WS' launch in China doesn't go well, NCSoft would have every reason to pull the plug. The good news is that even if WS doesn't catch on elsewhere and is only a money maker in China, the game shouldn't die. Unless NCSoft hands development off to a Chinese team CRB will still get to work on (English) content that we can enjoy. 
 
Even if WSChina is a horrible mess of P2W, like the other games by GI, WS could still be clean of it in other regions. 
 
Soooo... yay China?	
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I was trying to answer his question quite directly and support my view.
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Her... I'm a chick ;)
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As to your other question. I do see it as harmful to go around saying "everything is fine! Do not look at the $ numbers! The last drop was awesome, and our guild had new players apply! They finally turned it around, WS is growing!". In short, you can't fix something if you don't recognize it's a problem.
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(Really, spell check?  Positivity is a damn word.  Don't red line me.)
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I don't how you thought I was addressing those calling for the game to go f2p (though I go into why that is not a good idea here), I was trying to answer his question quite directly and support my view. I don't want to be branded as an empty doomsayer, but I actually looked it up and compared WS' numbers to Tabula Rasa. TR earned 5 mil from it's November launch to the end of the year, and was put to the block for it. The professional estimate for WS' Q1 2015 is 1.5 mil. There is no way 1.5 even covers employee salaries, let alone be profitable. It doesn't get much worse than that. 
 
For the moment Wildstar more or less has immunity from shutdown, as the game is being launched in China with unknown alterations. CRB basically has that as their final deadline. If WS' launch in China doesn't go well, NCSoft would have every reason to pull the plug. The good news is that even if WS doesn't catch on elsewhere and is only a money maker in China, the game shouldn't die. Unless NCSoft hands development off to a Chinese team CRB will still get to work on (English) content that we can enjoy. 
 
Even if WSChina is a horrible mess of P2W, like the other games by GI, WS could still be clean of it in other regions. 
 
Soooo... yay China?
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			i just re subbed and know a good number of people 1st time subbing...	
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Good, it will counter the 8 people (including myself) who just cancelled their subscription until season 2 comes out.
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i just re subbed and know a good number of people 1st time subbing...
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Well really, I don't see why you were pinning so much on the patch for gear, they said they were trying to open an incentive to pvp. I know it seems like empty promises, but that was meant to be a bandaid until the next drop/season.
 
I know my guild has rateds planned thursday this week, and another couple of exile guilds want to play too.
 
Unfortunately with the state of how rateds got, they have to be given a push by the community, which is what we're hoping to do eu side at least. Carbine can't magically make people start queueing in empty queues...
 
Good luck with w/e eclips, take care <3	
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Good, it will counter the 8 people (including myself) who just cancelled their subscription until season 2 comes out.
 
Or the one who cancelled his sub because Wow provides him with what he likes
Or the one who played for 2 days thanks to a pvp patch only to see that nothing really has changed, and rated doesn't pop
Or the one who doesn't feel the need to sub to a game where he has to sit in either empty or 13+ minute queues.
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What about the Jaded Curmudgeon PvPer with an over-inflated sense of self worth? Oh wait, you already listed him.
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and until that time comes, I'll still be happily paying my subscription and playing the game.
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do what you want, there's no new subs, and everyone's waiting for the game to die and change like... hem...
 
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			Welcome to the game wolfhammer, hope you have a great time in nexus :)	
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Honestly, I've felt better about those games because I've had the choice to spend money when I've felt the content was what I wanted. I never felt like I had to compete for development time.
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Welcome to the game wolfhammer, hope you have a great time in nexus :)
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Cheers Sylqt :):)
Enjoying it indeed......  Just wish Exile guilds would look in the Jabbit guild recruitment thread once and a while...
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Cheers Sylqt :):)
Enjoying it indeed......  Just wish Exile guilds would look in the Jabbit guild recruitment thread once and a while...
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			Come dominion... we have cookies <,<	
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I guess people are just different, because the model for both of those games is a big turn off to me. I don't want the "choice to spend money". I don't want to think about real world money AT ALL when I'm playing a computer game.
 
Though I understand why a PvP player would feel "milked" in this game.
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Come dominion... we have cookies <,<
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Funny thing about perception.  You perceive the game as growing because people are filling into your frequented aspects of the game.
I perceive the game as dying because people are leaving my frequented aspects of the game.
 
That's okay, but realistically, we're still on one North American server.  Dominion still feels stagnant.  Sure, new people joining daily looks like a good thing, but what's the turn around?  How many people stay?  In PvP, my wheelhouse, I often see PvPers not make it to 50 because they can't get into a BG.  I see people not want to subscribe because they don't want to play practice battlegrounds all day, and there is no clear roadmap for PvP to look at.
 
Either way, people are negative and "doomsaying," for a reason.  You have basically 2 options here, run those people out, so that only the people who are silent / praise the game are left:  OR, create a game / environment / service that can be objectively praised.
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As to your other question. I do see it as harmful to go around saying "everything is fine! Do not look at the $ numbers! The last drop was awesome, and our guild had new players apply! They finally turned it around, WS is growing!". In short, you can't fix something if you don't recognize it's a problem.
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Ppl not subbing right? Lets take a look on that.
 
So, lets say we are not talking about WS for a moment. You have a friend playing a mmo and asks you to join that game because its superb. You decide to give it a chance. You pick the trial and as your friend told you, you decide to roll on the pve server because practical there arent any pvp servers. Next step, you create your char and get into the game. Everything looks new and pretty. Combat, animations, movement all looks great...but ppl? Where are they? You forgot a bit about that and continue to lvl. A few more lvl's up you noticed only a couple of ppl during your lvling journey. You start to get bored, hell this is a mmo not a single player game. You try zone chat as you are looking for some group to take down this huge boss in front of you. Once again no luck, no one is around, or at least no one replies. You decide to queue for some PvE instanced content in order to find some ppl to play together. You wait a bit. A bit longer. You are making a toast meanwhile waiting for the queue to pop. After having a whole meal, queue looks infinite...Maybe its pve fault, maybe a pvp queue pops more frequently. Another meal after you realize it wasn't pve fault but simply there aren't any pve or pvp queues...You continue your lvling for a few more hours and then...
 
You speak again with your friend and he says you must show patience, because in max lvl's there are both ppl and queues. At least compared to low lvl's you ll find a better situation. You think of this for a while and say thanks to your friend but you will return to your previous mmo, where at least you have ppl to play with. Where lvling zones are not ghost towns and queues not happening only in max lvl. You know in that other mmo there are also pvp queues and servers!!!
 
So lets get real ppl. Is anyone who would buy a mmo like that after the trial experience? Its not about WS, its about every mmo in that state and imho very few ppl who will play WS trial will by the game in the end. Considering also its a p2p game, makes the decision even harder...	
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Ppl not subbing right? Lets take a look on that.
 
So, lets say we are not talking about WS for a moment. You have a friend playing a mmo and asks you to join that game because its superb. You decide to give it a chance. You pick the trial and as your friend told you, you decide to roll on the pve server because practical there arent any pvp servers. Next step, you create your char and get into the game. Everything looks new and pretty. Combat, animations, movement all looks great...but ppl? Where are they? You forgot a bit about that and continue to lvl. A few more lvl's up you noticed only a couple of ppl during your lvling journey. You start to get bored, hell this is a mmo not a single player game. You try zone chat as you are looking for some group to take down this huge boss in front of you. Once again no luck, no one is around, or at least no one replies. You decide to queue for some PvE instanced content in order to find some ppl to play together. You wait a bit. A bit longer. You are making a toast meanwhile waiting for the queue to pop. After having a whole meal queue looks infinite...Maybe its pve fault, maybe a pvp queue pops more frequently. Another meal after you realize it wasn't pve fault but simply there aren't any pve or pvp queues...You continue your lvling for a few more hours and then...
 
You speak again with your friends and he says you must show patience, because in max lvl's there are both ppl and queues. At least compared to low lvl's you ll find a better situation. You think of this for a while and say thanks to your friend but you will return to your previous mmo, where at least you have ppl to play with. Where lvling zones are not ghost towns and queues not happening only in max lvl. You know in that other mmo there are also pvp queues and servers!!!
 
So lets get real ppl. Is anyone who would buy a mmo like that after the trial experience? Its not about WS, its about every mmo in that state and imho very few ppl who will play WS trial will by the game in the end. Considering also its a p2p game, makes the decision even harder...
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Again, I have seen plenty of F2P people (that joined the guild) pay for the subscription.
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I thought trials could not join a guild...
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So lets get real ppl. Is anyone who would buy a mmo like that after the trial experience? Its not about WS, its about every mmo in that state and imho very few ppl who will play WS trial will by the game in the end. Considering also its a p2p game, makes the decision even harder...
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If I enjoyed the gameplay and narrative, I'd buy it.  I'd pay it and play it until I got tired of it.  I'd make decisions for myself instead of relying solely on the actions of opinions of others to sway me.  I'd listen to those who recommend things to me but I wouldn't base my every action upon those recommendations.
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Imo, we should avoid trying to think about how we see WS. As we are all here in the WS forums, it's a given we all think it's worth our time. We should be thinking of why this game does not appeal to other potential buyers, and as demonstrated by the population drops, it currently does not.
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			https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10	
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https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10
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Hoo boy.
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https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10
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The only negative thing he said was that the population is low and that there was no clear future and as such he won;t sub for it as many others i will imagine.
He only said that f2p might be a solution because there are so many creative options to go into the cash shop.
 
So yeah... lot of negative press there... saying how good the game is and that it really is worth a try.
 
Might it be an alergic reaction to f2p? :P	
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Oh be reasonable. Lamenting the game's lack of popularity is clearly negative, as is saying F2P is definitely negative.
 
Of course it's a reaction to F2P. F2P means a dead game for me. Putting the hours I do into this and the big part it plays in my life, having it taken away is going to cause a big reaction from me.	
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The hope is that the China version of the game is kept functionally different and is launched F2P and all that, but the rest of the game is not changed to match. It's quite possible, and GW2 has had something similar (but the payment model is more or less unchanged for them).
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The only negative thing he said was that the population is low and that there was no clear future and as such he won;t sub for it as many others i will imagine.
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Star wars, ya, never heard of that franchise before... Guild wars, how long have they been involved in MMO's, and wasn't there first one subscription model? Elder scrolls, they've only been doing games for how long, 15 or so years. Wow has been doing games for over 20 years. Point is, these games either have huge financial/name recognition advantage from the start, that Wildstar doesn't have.
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Imo, we should avoid trying to think about how we see WS. As we are all here in the WS forums, it's a given we all think it's worth our time. We should be thinking of why this game does not appeal to other potential buyers, and as demonstrated by the population drops, it currently does not. 
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As a new player I can say that Mamatereza's story is one I'm seeing now -- emptines, 3-4 guild recruitment messages in total and those where for endgame raiding. So, yeah, I find it hard to find a reason to continue to spend my time on it when I can do something else (at least) equaly good with people around.
 
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			As someone who's played numerous MMO's, and still is subbed to WS (after returning after a break) I just picked up ESO on a whim since it went B2P and I can say that that move they just did envigorated the community a huge amount. The towns/questing areas are filled with new and returning players, the cash shop is bare bones and nothing is behind any paywall. Whether you think ESO is a good or bad game, it's obvious (so far) that the move they did to B2P (with optional sub) was a good one. We'll see in time how it pans out for them. I know GW2 (NCsoft title) has done well thus far as a B2P model and with the expansion coming out for that, it's getting a lot of attention.I still think, if done right, Wildstar could get into a net positive if they moved to a similar model of B2P with optional sub, but that's just my opinion.  Whether NCsoft wants to back Carbine anymore overtime with content development will depend on keeping subs up, which costs more money to keep content fresh as a raid based theme-park MMO. WS definitely has the potential to be a mainstay, but subscription based MMO's are, for the most part, a dying breed.	
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