Report 149

Report #149
Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse
 Org: Moondancers Status: Completed Mar 2009
Furies' Decision:
We will halve the rate at which toads dodge.
Problem: Wiccans are the only class without an actual instakill, as toadcurse,
as pointed out to me many times, is not an instakill. As such, since it is our
'almost-instakill', it should be made slightly easier on the wiccan to actually
achieve the kill condition of stomping, while not removing the chance for the
toad to escape. To cast toadcurse leaves the wiccan off equilibrium for 4
seconds at base, giving your target the time to move away 2 rooms at current,
and a dodged stomp leaves the wiccan off balance for a short amount of time.
Dodging seems to happen more often than not, even with the previous change of
reduced chance to dodge.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Remove dodging from toads and slow their movement
 down.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Knock the toaded person off balance or equilibrium
 briefly after being toaded, as well as remove dodging
 from toads.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3:
Player Comments:
---[Xenthos on 3/7 @ 04:01 writes]:
This is acceptable if Moondancer passive mana drain is lowered considerably.
The numbers (and this problem) have already been fully detailed on the forums at
http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=17021&view=findpost&p=614716.
Making Toadcurse even more into an assured instakill means that the manadraining
*has* to be lowered to be more in line with Guardians. The only solution I see
acceptable to the "dodging problem" is to standardize it so all toads have the
same dexterity and the same dodge rate.
---[Xenthos on 3/7 @ 04:02 writes]:
Erm, I mean "Wiccan passive mana drain," since Shadowdancers have even more
passive with the Night-specific fae.
---[Shuyin on 3/7 @ 11:34 writes]:
Standardizing toad dexterity and dodge rate does sound like a simpler solution
---[Shuyin on 3/11 @ 21:18 writes]:
After further thought, just removing dodging by itself is fine as well
---[Xenthos on 3/11 @ 21:56 writes]:
Still disagree with that, due to Wiccans having much more efficient (and
effective) passive mana drain, on top of similar-quality active drains.
---[Shuyin on 3/11 @ 23:58 writes]:
Banshee by itself isn't even close to being an 'efficient' mana drain unless the
wiccan actively works for it. It seems your efficient mana drain belief comes
from SD's + the lovable succumb, I certainly can keep up with MD's active drain
far easier than I can with a SD's passive one.
---[Nydekion on 3/12 @ 02:57 writes]:
Effective or not, it is a step above the mana drain that guardians can pull off,
making toadcurse an easier condition to reach than an absolve or wrack as
guardians only have an active drain. Icewalls also stop toads from leaving the
location, I don't see a reason for the dodging to be removed entirely.
---[Sarrasri on 3/12 @ 03:18 writes]:
Guardians just somewhat recently (in the past few months) had their mana drains
upgraded. Amissio is now more effective than moondance lash, unless I'm
remembering my formulas wrong. Leech also just got upgraded recently.
---[Nydekion on 3/12 @ 19:00 writes]:
Banshee was also upgraded significantly lately insofar as the mana drain it
gives is based off the target's maximum mana instead of the current mana to
match the increased mana drain that guardians received.
---[Romero on 3/13 @ 20:37 writes]:
Ciaran and I did testing a month or so back after the leech buff and his ability
to drain mana far outweighed mine even with the change. You cannot just cite
lash as if you don't have a full fae draining more mana and the ease of
sleeplocks for wiccans. The offense is easily done and the execution works fine,
I don't really think Wiccans need this change.
---[Xenthos on 3/13 @ 23:14 writes]:
The numbers are in the thread referenced earlier, Sarrasri. Wiccans are far
above and beyond Guardians at mana draining due to the passive addition of these
sources, *along with* their active drain.
---[Sarrasri on 3/14 @ 06:11 writes]:
How many of you have actually compared the mana drains from Shadowdancers and
Moondancers? I know the other day I sat at my nexus, in the tree, and lashed
myself with all available mana draining fae for about 5 minutes, not to toad
myself at all. The mana draining issue is with Shadowdancers, not Moondancers.
The way you lot are going on, you'd think I could just stand there draining mana
and get the toad, which is untrue. I'll gladly help you see my mana drain by
using it on you, if any of you would just ask, which you have not. You're
assuming a Moondancer's drain is as good as a Shadowdancers. Also, at the very
least, I am seeking just to have dodging removed from toads, however, since
toadcurse and toads is one of the most complained about skills to me, I thought
I'd try to streamline it a bit, without actually killing the "get away" option,
as it still remains with both my suggestions.
---[Sarrasri on 3/14 @ 06:12 writes]:
As a note, when I tested Moondancer drain on myself, I was undeffed and without
a torc, so nothing was affecting the drain from that.
---[Sarrasri on 3/14 @ 06:15 writes]:
Also, Moondancer fae that help contribute to a passive drain are only pixie and
banshee. Pixie because of insomnia, which that drain can be avoided through the
use of merbloom. I also tried it with metawake on for a while as well.
---[Shuyin on 3/14 @ 06:39 writes]:
As a note, the forum thread you mentioned seems to just support the fact that
SD's, not MD's are the ones with the 'crazy' manadrains
---[Synl on 3/14 @ 14:29 writes]:
Regarding your testing, was it daytime? Did you have your sprite?
---[Sarrasri on 3/15 @ 00:52 writes]:
I didn't check the time of day, however, no I did not have my sprite. I think it
went from day to night while I was doing it.
---[Romero on 3/15 @ 03:40 writes]:
Also did you use your fae to drain insomnia (250 mana to put back up), or did
you perform any other offense to attempt to put them asleep? Did you take into
account the near necessary mana drain of metawake that is needed during a fight
with a Wiccan. Its already been discussed on the forums that constantly spamming
a mana drain attack should not account for being able to instantly manakill the
person and as it stands guardians definitely cannot do this and Wiccans have it
easy with the simple, almost instant (and possibly instant in some cases)
sleeplock.
---[Viynain on 3/15 @ 07:51 writes]:
Hmm? If all the Moondancer did was use Lash, they would not go anywhere at all,
even with a banshee and metawake hitting you. The only problems I could
feasibly, honestly see in terms of mana drains is the problem with the
Shadowdancer Succumb. Keeping up with the Moondancer's Lash is very doable, even
if all they did was just the active drain.
---[Sarrasri on 3/15 @ 07:53 writes]:
Romero, if you read what I actually wrote, you would have noticed I did take
into account everything you mentioned when testing on myself, since pixie is the
one that strips insomnia and I said I did put up metawake and test it too.
---[Gregori on 3/15 @ 08:49 writes]:
I have never had an MD come close to draining me to the extent of just succumb
hitting. For example just this evening Succumb first hit 1816:6057 drained.
Second hit same thing. This is just passive SD draining on succumb. Not taking
into account fae, my own mana draining usage, or the SD actively working to
drain. Thats at Trans magic.
---[Synl on 3/15 @ 15:24 writes]:
Succumb drains 15% of max if the target has Trans magic - it is impossible for
Succumb to have drained 1815:6057 alone, there must be a mistake in your
numbers.
---[Nydekion on 3/15 @ 17:49 writes]:
The discussion between mana draining capabilities of SD and MDs seems a bit
irrelevant in this discussion as both guilds have access to toadcurse and are
both better at draining mana than guardians. No one expects a wiccan to only use
lash as the entirety of their offense or only use succumb, I'm not sure why that
is even up for discussion. Draining mana while under a sleeplock of some sort is
a basic, favored tactic that is not available to all tertiaries equally which is
generally not an option for celestines and possible, but harder to pull off for
nihilists. In essence, regardless of which wiccan guild drains more mana still
brings up the same point, toadcurse is an easier state to achieve than an
absolve or even wrack, making this buff unnecessary.
---[Gregori on 3/15 @ 19:54 writes]:
I am fine with removing dodging. Unlike Absolve and Wrack, the wiccan still has
to chase the toad around and stomp on it, often more than once. Using Absolve
and Wrack as comparison is as misleading as the whole wiccans draining
conversation. Both of those skills are full on instakills. Toad is a chase the
person around and hope he doesn't revert before you stomp on him.
---[Xenthos on 3/15 @ 22:44 writes]:
And if you remove/lessen the ability for a person to "escape" as a toad by
hopping around (removing the dodging completely), you are in fact making it much
closer to an insta-kill. Just with an extra finishing move at the end which is
unstoppable. Upgrading toadcurse IS making it closer to a "full-on instakill,"
at which point Wiccan mana draining needs to go down significantly.
---[Nydekion on 3/16 @ 01:07 writes]:
Icewalls are 100% useful in stopping a toad from escaping, no chasing necessary.
---[Nejii on 3/16 @ 03:55 writes]:
Even excluding the fact that this is wiccans' only insta (unlike guardians), how
many people would be willing to justify something like making inquisition easier
than evevery insta kill because it doesn't actually finish them off? If we're
being honest, I'm guessing "not many." If toadcurse really makes it so much
easier to almost-kill someone than any guardian instakill, that deserves
addressing regardless of the fact that toad doesn't actually finish them off
without more work.