114026-three-months-and-are-we-really-at-this-point

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It's been only a little over 3 months and things already seem to be looking grim for Wildstar.
 
Regular forum posters next to nonexistent these days.
Guilds failing.
Next to no one seen while leveling.
All the end game woes posted about.
 
Heck even SWTOR took a year before it got to this state prior to their redirection.
 
Is Wildstar doomed for F2p?
 
OR ( and the reason this post should stay open ) is it US.  Yes, US the gamer.
 
Are we really that jaded?
 
Are we really that into instant gratification?
 
Are we really that much a product of the heresy of modernity and relativism whose thoughts seem to prevail that nothing is worth working for anymore?
 
Are MMORPGs in general dying?
 
Seriously wth is going on?
 
All of this said ... in an attempt to have a cogent debate about what is going on, please refrain from flames, direct attacks on the Devs, etc.
 
I would be interested in knowing, seriously, is it US the players, the MMORPG genre of games, OR the companies that produce these games these days.
 
I know that at heart many of the people that produce these games " are us ": Gamers.  I know that from a business perspective those that may be at the top may not be gamers.  What is going on with this genre that I enjoy?
 
It's not just Wildstar, it seems to be pervasive genre wide.
 
WHT is going on these days?
 
((Mods and Staff please be brave and allow a debate not only on your game but the entire genre and all of us gamers that play these games)).	
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Regulars? Chua still around, as are others. Just stopped caring about crap being posted
Guilds failing? Happen all time. Chua merged with other guild and now raiding happily
woes ALWAYS posted, check WoW forums
WoW took year too, WildStar will also take year
stop with F2P, aint happening
US Gamer more nagging, but more active then EU player
Yes, all of us are jaded
yes, all of us are into gratifiation
Yes we are such product
MMORPGS dying? only if they bad
Nothing goes on, standard modern consumer behavior	
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For whatever reason despite all the problems with WoW it lives.
 
It seem to be the one game that lives.  People seem to leave it and gravitate back to it on a regular basis.  Many stating playing other games but, then coming back.  Why is WoW the "charmed game"?
 
Why do games seem to have a shorter life span these days.  It used to take a year or more for things to get to the state that they are in Wildstar?  Heck even a game like Matrix Online lasted for multiple years before it died.
 
I personally don't think it's a Wildstar problem.  I think it is endemic of our hobby these days.
 
I am still having fun,  I don't want to see this game die.  Sure I will continue to play WoW and other games but, I like this game too.
 
I am just distressed at the rapidity of the decline of Wildstar in light of the entire genre.
 
This game seems to have many of the feature requested and posted about in other game forums.  Given that it seems to be a game that listened to the genre wide competition ... why does it "seem" to be in decline?
 
Again ... I think WE gamers are to blame ( and society in general ).	
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Time for that graph again.
 
Not sure why you decided to open yet another topic on this issue.
 
Sigh.	
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To discus this from a different perspective that it may be the fault of "us gamers" or "society in general and how it effects us" vs. the producers of the games.
 
I am leaning to the possibility that the consumers of the product are to blame and not the product.	
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For whatever reason despite all the problems with WoW it lives.
 
It seem to be the one game that lives.  People seem to leave it and gravitate back to it on a regular basis.  Many stating playing other games but, then coming back.  Why is WoW the "charmed game"?
 
Why do games seem to have a shorter life span these days.  It used to take a year or more for things to get to the state that they are in Wildstar?  Heck even a game like Matrix Online lasted for multiple years before it died.
 
I personally don't think it's a Wildstar problem.  I think it is endemic of our hobby these days.
 
I am still having fun,  I don't want to see this game die.  Sure I will continue to play WoW and other games but, I like this game too.
 
I am just distressed at the rapidity of the decline of Wildstar in light of the entire genre.
 
This game seems to have many of the feature requested and posted about in other game forums.  Given that it seems to be a game that listened to the genre wide competition ... why does it "seem" to be in decline?
 
Again ... I think WE gamers are to blame ( and society in general ).
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			So Olivar, if I read you correctly you seem to be in agreement that it is US the consumer that is at fault ( the view I hold )?	
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			Not sure why anyone thought this game would be a massive success. It caters to the hardcore. I'm fine with it being a niche game as long as I have people to play with (which I do), and I've got enough plat to play this game for infinity so it's no money loss for me.	
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Smashbrother,
 
I am fine with WS catering to a more hardcore audience but, it seems to not have much of an audience these days compared to when it opened and other hardcore games in their time.  Again, I don't think this is a WS problem. I think it is a consumer problem.	
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I really am into a certain amount of expectation of competence and polish from a monthly fee. Because Carbine has been pulling absolutely amateur-hour goof up's left, right, and center since launch.
 
The number of times they've fixed something to have it revert to broken in the next patch is beyond belief.
 
Launching with Technologist tradeskill flatly unfinished.
 
Tailor schematics and only tailor schematics in adventures soulbound on pick up.
 
Use-case insanity in most of the AH windows, including having to buy items one at a time if the (hidden) quantities at the lowest price are lower than the number you want to buy.
 
From-the-hip skill changes coupled with numerous bugs turning last-place DPS class to first-place. Overshoot much?
 
Endless dithering with DPS skills while leaving tank/healing players to rot until 2015.
 
I'm not talking grindy, repetitive, must log in 32 days / pay 2 separate months of sub fees to make progress at 'endgame' for non-raiders... I can live with that. Barely. I'm talking fundamental polish issues At. Every. Turn.
 
I like the game, but its being managed right into the ground.	
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So Olivar, if I read you correctly you seem to be in agreement that it is US the consumer that is at fault ( the view I hold )?
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Olivar,
 
I will take that as a very cogent agreement of my PoV.
 
Thanks.	
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This game along with many others of the genre are pretty much released way too early. In reality we are paying for what normal games call 'early access'. By the sound of it, Drop 3 is where the game should have been launched.
 
I'm guessing it still pays off as a business model to launch a bad game, keep players for 3 months, then let the game die slowly. If it didn't pay off, then they wouldn't be doing it.With that said, I'm not one of the quitters. It just saddens me to see what publishers are doing to the entire genre.	
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Nike,
 
I don't think the game is being managed into the ground.
 
I would like this to be a discussion of the symptoms of the genre ( with Wildstar being the victim of such ) and not specific faults of Wildstar because I really don't think Wildstar is at fault.	
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This game along with many others of the genre are pretty much released way too early. In reality we are paying for what normal games call 'early access'. By the sound of it, Drop 3 is where the game should have been launched.
 
I'm guessing it still pays off as a business model to launch a bad game, keep players for 3 months, then let the game die slowly. If it didn't pay off, then they wouldn't be doing it.
 
With that said, I'm not one of the quitters. It just saddens me to see what publishers are doing to the entire genre.
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Stravanov,
 
I do see your point and I think that may be a contributing factor but, I am still leaning to the side of the equation that it may be "us" the gamers as an entity.	
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Olivar,
 
I agree with you vis a vie "content locusts".	
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Chua absolutely not agree.
Problem is not "not enough content", problem is people rushing content instead of enjoying game.
Chua still has to set food into defile, and see what new place is all about. Chua set for first time this week foot in Galactic Archives while others clearing datascape and leaving cause nothing to do.
Is all about perspective. Is sufficient content in game, if taking time and enjoying it.
 
Argument like "I only want to raid, game start at 50" are bollocks.
Then go play dungeon crawler or adventure game, but not RPG game.
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Well this is my take on the situation.
 
IMO MMORPG's are on the decline, the golden age has passed, and we are now settling (with one notable exception) for niche games that cater for particular tastes - be it hardcore, film tie ins, sandbox or similar.  Since the peak of the "notable exception" the release of these games has slowed down as the development costs spiral versus diminishing returns.Yes, my favourite Chua is correct, WoW took a year to "get it right" but then it wasn't competing against a plethora of other games, it had the luxury of time to get there - no one was sitting there going "bugger this, I'm going back to WoW/Rift/Eve/GW2" etc.  I also think that we were a little more tolerant of games shortcomings, but now with the internet giving us more and more access to games we don't forgive these little issues so easily, its just too easy to hop onto the next game....
 
And that's what many have done.  They came here expecting a polished game, not something still trying to iron out annoying bugs.  They expected all the QoL bits that other games have, not something where you cant easily reply to another player, they didn't expect RNG to be king and they don't equate hardcore to grindfest.  I think many of us look back to the days of WoW vanilla with rose tinted glasses, we recall the good and block the bad.  The thought of returning to this was just too good any opportunity to turn down - the problem is those short comings then came back and gave us all a good wake up call.
 
For any game to survive it has to bring something new to the party, and to keep dangling (new) carrots in front of the players. Wildstar didnt bring anything new, and as soon as it started to stop its content drops (it needed to) to fix bugs etc it lost the carrot.  Those that remain fall roughly into two camps.  Those that stay as they have friends etc here and those that live in hope of the games promise being realised....	
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Chua absolutely not agree.
Problem is not "not enough content", problem is people rushing content instead of enjoying game.
Chua still has to set food into defile, and see what new place is all about. Chua set for first time this week foot in Galactic Archives while others clearing datascape and leaving cause nothing to do.
Is all about perspective. Is sufficient content in game, if taking time and enjoying it.
 
Argument like "I only want to raid, game start at 50" are bollocks.
Then go play dungeon crawler or adventure game, but not RPG game.
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Zardiel,
 
All you describe, to me seems to indicate an equal fault on the part of the us the gamers and the producers of such games.
 
I posit, something to think about, are we limited by "technology" available these days on the part of the producers to satiate the appetites of the consumer?	
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I've lost 3 real friends and at least 20 in game friends all to the same thing...
 
Boosters, and exploiters and now medic/war completely dominated PVP to the point that they feel there is little reason to log in	
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It's the fault of the gaming industry that produces games you can play trough in a few hours and then jump to the next game. The gamers are spoiled now. An MMORPG where you supposed to progress slowly is not fast enough for today's gaming culture.
 
EDIT: I'm saying it's both the fault of game devs/publishers and gamers, who let themselves be spoiled by these few hour long instant gratification games.	
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You're putting words into my mouth.
 
There is enough content. It's just too buggy and not rewarding.
 
I just rerolled to another server and levelled a new toon to 50. I am fully pre raid BiS. And I only did each adventure once and each dungeon once.
 
Sure I can run more dungeons. I could also just go and look at the sunset. The problem is that I am not rewarded in any way whatsoever by doing the non-raid content. I define content as "something to do that progresses my character somehow". Nothing outside of raids (and dailies) progresses my character.
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I've lost 3 real friends and at least 20 in game friends all to the same thing...
 
Boosters, and exploiters and now medic/war completely dominated PVP to the point that they feel there is little reason to log in
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Strayhand,
 
From what I read you are in agreement that the problem may lie with the consumer?	
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It's the fault of the gaming industry that produces games you can play trough in a few hours and then jump to the next game. The gamers are spoiled now. An MMORPG where you supposed to progress slowly is not fast enough for today's gaming culture.
 
EDIT: I'm saying it's both the fault of game devs/publishers and gamers, who let themselves be spoiled by these few hour long instant gratification games.
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Strayhand,
 
From what I read you are in agreement that the problem may lie with the consumer?
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What bugs?
What bugs are preventing you from playing through the game?
 
Fully pre-raid BiS? Only done each adventure once?
Telling Chua is using purely crafted 125main stat gear?
More rewarding? Have on new character legendary gloves and unlocked, yes? Have it attuned, yes?
Have unlocked all crafting professions and trees, yes?
Build complete new house for alt as well?
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			I might blame players for being savvy enough to notice most gaming products actually deliver a complete experience that works at launch rather than rely on weekly patching to get sub-system X working Y number of weeks after launch. The MMO developers are the ones who are spoiled rotten on that front...	
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Partly (see my edit). Gamers becoming less and less patient. I'm not even sure it's strictly about the gaming industry, it's about IT industry in general. Facebook generation.
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Stravanov,
 
RE: Housing
 
In this game Housing is an advantage to leveling faster.  As are items that enhance housing given that they increase the rested bonus.
 
I do wish that there was some advantage once one gets to cap ( I don't know of any currently ).
 
That said, I would like the thred to stay on the topic of what is wrong with our genre.  I think WS is just the current victim.  Make sense?	
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Personally I think it is  combination of issues. But to simplfy it comes down to:
 
The game is new, and so is the community.
 
From the aspect of this being a new game there are two main thing that let it down.
 
1) Polish. It is the little things that count and every bug people encounter that affects them is going to leave a negative feeling. Even if it does not stop them getting to max level or progressing their characters in other ways not being able to do what they wanted because of a bug does feel bad.
 
2) Content when compared to what else is on the market. It will always struggle on content when compared to decade old games and that is a real factor. It is not something they can realistically match if they ever want launch but they do need to be mindful that the comparisons will be made.
 
From the aspect of this being a new community the main issue is expectation. Not everyone had the right one. That is not the communities fault, we are not all going to be able to interpret the press and get the exact detail fo how the developers plan to develop their game. e just have to give it time, let the developers communicate how they see their game and let those who do not want a part of that future to leave. It is important that we DO loose players. It is important that not everyone wants to play this game. That means we have a game with a core idea and plan. No good game should appeal to everyone as it means simply they do nothing well.
 
Basically all new beginnings are rocky. We will be okay.	
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Stravanov,
 
RE: Housing
 
In this game Housing is an advantage to leveling faster.  As are items that enhance housing given that they increase the rested bonus.
 
I do wish that there was some advantage once one gets to cap ( I don't know of any currently ).
 
That said, I would like the thred to stay on the topic of what is wrong with our genre.  I think WS is just the current victim.  Make sense?
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OK, I'm going to be controversial here.
 
I lay the blame to the current problems in most MMOs at the door of that other big MMO.
 
When they made the change towards the end of BC and in WotLK they opened Pandora's Box.  They allowed players the opportunity to truly face roll something in 10-15mins and come away with nice fat shinies, with if I recall correctly no form of attunement or similar - just reach max level, run expert dungeons over two days and be raid ready - voila!. Ever since then, the demand and self belief that players are entitled to welfare epics has not gone away, infact its only grown and grown.  With this policy, and a highly polished game they grew there subscription base to its peak and ingrained that mentality of I don't need to work for this into the player base.  Given that this MMO is used by many as the benchmark for just about every other MMO, its not surprising many who jumped on the FotM game known as W* were left a little unhappy with what they found..... 	
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I agree Zardiel.
 
But, this does fuel my argument that in the long run it is we gamers that may be the real problem.	
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The game is full of fundamental design flaws. On top of this there were many bugs in dungeons and adventures. They fixed a lot now. But many persist in Datascape.
 
Yes I am full raid BiS apart from legendary gloves. I'm saving that farm for Drop 3, since I need to farm STL for those flux reagents anyways.
Yes pure crafted gear and AH epics.
Yes attuned.
No I only unlocked the things I need. As I said. I don't see "unlocking all crafting professions and trees" as content, since I don't need it for anything.
No I didn't build a house. I never build houses in these games, since it doesn't progress my character in any way.
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This is a very good question and one I have been wondering about for some time. I never played WoW (my brother did while we were growing up and I wasn't interested in it from what I saw) so I can't comment about that subject.
 
But other MMO's have come and gone, all promising to be great. The last MMO I played prior to WildStar was Rift. I thoroughly enjoyed it, until release of Storm Legion and then f2p was when I left. 
 
I have really high hopes for WildStar, and I truly believe this game can still make it. Sure many have left, and some guild's (few popular) have disbanded and quit. But, that does not mean game will die. With next drop (would like it soon) and more advertising, people who haven't tried this game will sub, new guilds will rise. 
 
Personally from what I have seen with new MMO's is that there are a special group of people (extreme elitist) that get catered to. The devs seem to rely on those kinds of people to much (they are the ones that make the "suggestions" about class changes, raiding, etc. The devs even have alts in those guilds). In the end, those elite people and guilds get all they want and end up leaving.
 
Honestly, MMO's need to truly listen to the players, all of them. Because if they don't, that's when the MMO fails. I can say this because I have personally been part of that type of system more than once and have personally witnessed the outcome of a few MMO's fail because of the devs listening to the elitist players, guilds. I don't ever want to be a part of that again and really hope not to see that happen to this game.
 
Mark my words, it's because of that reason I listed why new MMO's fail.	
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They allowed players the opportunity to truly face roll something in 10-15mins and come away with nice fat shinies, with if I recall correctly no form of attunement or similar - just reach max level, run expert dungeons over two days and be raid ready - voila!. Ever since then, the demand and self belief that players are entitled to welfare epics has not gone away, infact its only grown and grown.  With this policy, and a highly polished game they grew there subscription base to its peak and ingrained that mentality of I don't need to work for this into the player base.  Given that this MMO is used by many as the benchmark for just about every other MMO, its not surprising many who jumped on the FotM game known as W* were left a little unhappy with what they found.....
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I would have disagreed another day. But in the Month of August I lost my guild and several friends to Arch Age and WoW and they were awesome people not forum ragers.
 
I'm about to lose another handful of friends who just don't fit the immature hardcore or PvP child descriptions....
 
I think we're starting the Exodus of the Silent Support.	
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I would have disagreed another day. But in the Month of August I lost my guild and several friends to Arch Age and WoW and they were awesome people not forum ragers.
 
I'm about to lose another handful of friends who just don't fit the immature hardcore or PvP child descriptions....
 
I think we're starting the Exodus of the Silent Support.
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This boat was always full of holes. If they wanted to be the niche game for the #hardcore, they could have gone that way and had a small but passionate community. I for one am not sure these hardcore players exist in any real quantity. Most of us that were running the 40 mans back in wow now have jobs that take up the majority of our time. So you need to find people with that same mindset as the old raiders, but have the free time to invest in a raiding schedule. I'm sure there must be a few, but the numbers are not going to be great. I guess the higher ups were drinking the koolaid that there was this vast untapped population of people that were after a more difficult game with all the old time sinks. Wildstar has some neat combat mechanics, and a cool art style, but the game needs to get a headcheck when it comes to who it is trying to pull in. WoW has the casual market, unless wildstar can routinely launch absolutely perfect updates, people are going to go back to WoW for casual stuff.  
 
So in my opinion this is on the head of the devs that were trying to corner a minority market that was a lot smaller then they hoped, and then tried to appeal to the casual market who already have a game.  	
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			Yeah. They all had different reasons. But they all left together. All at once.	
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Hey everyone,
 
We realize it's fun to speculate sometimes, but these types of threads aren't constructive and always end poorly. Keeping that in mind, I'm going to go ahead and lock this one.
 
Thanks,Team WildStar	
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