124303-want-more-players-lfrduty-finder-page-2

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I wouldn't say I'm an LFR person anymore, but I'm certainly no hardcore raider (leaning towards progression but more laid back in pace?) However, I would like to pitch in on this coming from WoW to Wildstar and having done LFR for a long, long time, as well as Flex mode. I do see the potential in gearing towards the more casual folks who, like a lot of folks in here, want to see less consuming forms of large content. The thing that I can't stress enough is that LFR cannot be in practice an "ezmode faesroll free gear" mode. It NEEDS to require input, some thought, and not become a joke (or cringe-worthy like it has in WoW, for example.)
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I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group content Some sort of push to get people to at least learn something should be done here. Maybe completion of all dungeons on bronze level, probably excluding Protogames and maybe SSM. Someone else was correct though, the attunement steps to get into GA (really, and I can't stress this enough, REALLY world bosses are the worst ones, as there's little incentive to do them ANYWAYS unless we finally see some vanity items drop from them, i.e. mounts or now pets) is horrendously long. It can't be that again. At most, 3 step attunement process. It should familiarize people with more difficult content, tbh. What would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"? 2-3 hours is on par for group-heavy content. More likely closer to 3 hours, to be honest. Just be aware that until people get the mechanics, we're probably talking 4-5 hours of working/not completing it until people understand the fights, and people will complain about the time til then.
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization) In terms of LFR, organization is probably going to be the biggest turn-off here. Now I'll never say make it simple because LFR... I think that was a huge mistake. I like, however, the idea that was posed by someone else: individual responsibility as opposed to group-ending mechanics. Focus on YOURSELF not screwing up, teamwork takes communication and a lot more coordination, which is what I believe the true reason was why early LFR was met with wails.
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level? In this case I think the best idea might be... Using the gorgeous world zones! Make instanced areas of, say, Whitevale where you have to trudge through a reemerging Ascendancy, who's become stronger after crawling out of their cesspit. Or repelling an opposing faction (mechanics same, bosses different) invasion of Farside for control of the Eldan cannon. I personally would like to not see GA and DS turned into easy versions of themselves. These are and should be for organized groups. ESPECIALLY Datascape. I feel like, as my raid is getting closer and closer to that Ohmna kill (regularly hitting 3 heads phase, wooh!) our excitement for getting into DS would have been horrendously diminished if we'd seen it in an easy form, even if the mechanics were very different. Half the awesomeness of organized raiding is seeing everything new together as a team. GA... I'm not sure. That's something I'd let others pitch on, but I feel equally as on DS for this.
Raid-quality loot I'd seriously argue for maybe variations of current, sub-raid level gear. Appropriately, I'd feel SSM/Protogames quality gear (ilvl 63 for the higher stuff, maybe ilvl 61 for the 'easier' LFR raids) would be just fine, introducing those was a great step to get people prepped for the serious raiding, and a form of LFR here would be equally beneficial and a different/fun way of earning that same gear. I feel slightly entitled as a raider and can't split my bias from my opinion on this unfortunately, but I feel like the rewards from raiding and having to deal with skill, time, organization, logistics and all the other horrors that we deal with as raiding guilds is that, aside from the sheer fun it is and the bonds we form, that we can run around in our awesome raid set gear and it -matters-. ESPECIALLY in Wildstar. Stats are not something you see by looking at a person. You can't just do a different color variation of an outfit either! We can recolor them using the wonderfully awesome dyeing system in the game. Hell, call it Invasions, since we're now getting a patch called that! Or Battlefronts. If you can avoid "LFR" as a tag, the perception of it being what's been done by other games is diminished severely.
 
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I wouldn't say I'm an LFR person anymore, but I'm certainly no hardcore raider (leaning towards progression but more laid back in pace?) However, I would like to pitch in on this coming from WoW to Wildstar and having done LFR for a long, long time, as well as Flex mode. However, I do see the potential in gearing towards the more casual folks who, like a lot of folks in here, want to see less consuming forms of large content. The thing that I can't stress enough is that LFR cannot be in practice an "ezmode faesroll free gear" mode. It NEEDS to require input, some thought, and not become a joke (or cringe-worthy like it has in WoW, for example.)
 
I do want to add that seeing a 10 man version of this would probably be the very best idea here. And here's why:
Aside from the need to organize less (less healers, less tanks, etc.), it also allows that easing off from the group-killer mechanics.
 
Because let's face it, losing 1 person out of 20 in an easier form of raiding is not even remotely detrimental. Talk 6-8, yeah, you're hurting, but it could take awhile. In a 10 man? Losing 2-3 people should be very harsh. Alternatively, 15 man could be used as a more lenient form of this. Since we are looking for a more eased up version of group content.
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I've always felt that LFR should be two things:
 
Number one: A gateway for people thinking of raiding to get gear that prepares them, and also allows them to see larger group content that is not just running around beating on something.
 
Number two: A way for more casual folks to have fun and see some cool things.
 
You alienate your raider base by making easy versions of their raids, it feels unusual and yes, while it occasionally feels self-entitled, it's no different than making the more awesome gear in DS when people like me are in GA. It's just not for me at that moment in time, and that's okay, either I take the effort to get there or I don't and my lack of effort/management is not rewarded. LFR was turned into an instant gratification system, and I (personally) feel that does not remotely make a good MMO, it severely diminishes the value of it. The sense of accomplishment just isn't there, you run it because you can. Do I want to see the lore available? I do. But organized raiding has to mean SOMETHING.
 
RE: the harder part, the reason I mentioned raid size is because it really shifts the focus of a raid. The example is in WoW. When 10 man raiding and 20 man raiding were tuned to same difficulty, 10 man was harder because even one screw-up was DEVASTATING, while in 20 man you could lose a couple of people and still be fine, just because of what fraction of a raid each person constitutes. If we're speaking in the sense of individual responsibility and not having one person take out a section of your raid because oopsie (as pretty much all of GA bosses are prone to do), 10 man or at most 15 man would be the size we're speaking of, it'd be easier to tune and design. An LFR version should by its nature be a lot easier than raiding, it should be "introductory level" raiding essentially. Done by a bunch of pugs who don't need to do all sorts of organization to get it done. At the same time, there is a place it has in terms of difficulty, and just making it a boss you beat on for 4-5 minutes is not something that I ever want to see in a game with as much potential as WS.	
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I'm struggling a bit with reading the posts in this topic, as I'm getting conflicting information.
From what I understand after reading the topic:
 
LFR should be an introduction to raiding.
The place that is being offered for LFR needs to prepare people for the upcoming raids, need to give the opportunity to learn the mechanics for raiding, it should bring gear that prepares people so they can step into Genetic Archives, yet it should not be too hard.
 
So based on the questions from TimeTravel, to appease the LFR-fanclub:
 
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group content: Simply base it on the average itemlevel of the equipment that people have. This requires them to either craft the items or run the Adventures and Dungeons to get sufficient pieces to step into the LFR raid. You could add a quest that requires you to visit a few places or complete a few objectives like killing specific bosses in the Dungeons on Veteran difficulty.What would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"? 2-3 hours indeed should be the maximum. However this has consequences as well on what LFR is going to be. Either you make the place rather short, or you make it rather easy. Which again brings up the discussion, what do we want LFR to be? Just another instant-gratification fulfilment for the criers, or actually a training ground into raiding?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization) If I had to pick anything here, then I would say Organization. And this applies to the current raids as well. Sometimes you are forced into picking a specific set-up to make something work, and this should not be the case. It always has to be: "Bring the player, not the class". This is unfortunately not the case at the moment.
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level? Please make content worthwhile. Just adding a Raid instance for the sake of raiding and loot is pointless and brings nothing to the game or it's fanbase. Zones need to have meaning and be worthwhile for visiting.
Raid-quality loot Anything dropped in LFR should be on the level that it prepares you for the next difficulty level. It should not be possible under any circumstance that the gear dropped in LFR allows you to bypass the other end-game content. To illustrate with an example, based on the current raids:  I should not be able to faceroll Genetic Archives with the gear dropped in LFR-Datascape.	
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 The developers put a lot of hard work, time, and money into putting these instances together.  I think it would be great to appreciate that personally.and help to grow that aspect of the game.
 
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			I'd rather have them add a separate pug-friendly 10-15man instance instead of making multiple difficulties. Have it give gear slightly better than vet dungeons but worse than GA and you're ready to go.	
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GA LFR is impossible. 100% completely and utterly impossible.
 
As anyone who has ran GA will know, EVERY boss requires a different setup. EVERY boss requires the group to work together as a team to kill it. "Tweaking" mechanics wont change that, not in the slightest
 
The 3 minibosses for example, a PuG could EASILY kill Malformed mutant without issue, thats a very LFRable boss (stand in a circle, interrupt 1 thing, dps). Genetic monstrosity, another doable LFR boss. Avoid the eggs and get 1 person to hit the tanks. What if multiple people try to hit the tanks though? Who chooses who activates? Still, its doable. Gravatron. Uh oh, now you suddenly have the need for more healers. Who has to swap? What if there are no dps in the group who want to swap? Should the raid just give up?
 
And now for the actual bosses.
 
X89 - A single bomb can wipe the raid. You cant remove this factor without removing ALL of the difficulty/mechanics from the boss. Would a LFR mode have no little/big bombs? Well ok, that boss is now simply a tank and spank grindfest where you have to dodge the red every now and again. It'd end up easier than dungeon bosses
 
Kuralak - Hell no, this isnt even doable. What do you do, remove the eggs? Reduce the timer on them? How will you assign interrupts when everyone is just zerging. That fight takes SO MUCH coordination to pull off, even if the egg phases were reduced it would take tons of time to just work out how to get to the 4 egg phase.
 
Phagemaw is a maybe, that one could actually be puggable without too much issue (assuming you coordinate bombs well) and I cant talk for the rest but simply looking at the 2 bosses above its easy to see that there is 0 way that you could have a GA LFG without nerfing all of the bosses to the point where they're not even bosses, they're just trash with mildly annoying mechanics. There is no way that an unorganized, randomed group could pull any of these off unless you gutted the raids of everything that made them special and in anyway challenging. If you want to make the raid doable in 3h, you're missing the point of raiding.
 
What would work perfectly is perhaps more companion content like the omnicore just fitted out for larger groups and with maybe more direct links to the raid itself. I'm 100% for larger group content but i really really dont think that LFR for GA/DS is the way to go. Its possible that future raids could incorporate it but I think that it would be much better if we had content specifically designed and tuned for people who want bite sized raid-like content rather than having to design bosses with mechanics that can be dropped for the easier mode	
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X89 - A single bomb can wipe the raid. You cant remove this factor without removing ALL of the FUN from the boss.
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I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
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This is something that I want the LFR crowd to hear: if you make an easier version of GA, you won't be appreciating the work, time, and money that went into these. I promise. What you will be getting will be missing the thing that makes these instances great.
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And if the LFR will not happen then they will not have the chance to appreciate or experience the raid at all. And it is possible to enjoy and appreciate an easier version of the raids, as is the case with other games.
 
 
Actually I think all of those are doable? Remove one shot mechanics, reduce the damage everything does, reduce boss HP.
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And if the LFR will not happen then they will not have the chance to appreciate or experience the raid at all. And it is possible to enjoy and appreciate an easier version of the raids, as is the case with other games.
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I'm arguing that they'd not be experiencing the raid that the devs " put a lot of hard work, time, and money into". They'd be experiencing something else. They might enjoy it, but it would be something different. On the other hand, for those who DO want to do the real version of the raid, doing the LFR version first would dull the whole experience.
 
But creating specific, LFR content that is NOT GA means neither of these things happen. I would rather see the devs put their time and energy into a new, puggable raid, than to see them put it into creating a watered down version of GA.
 
 
Do you not hear what we are saying about what removing the one shot mechanic would do to these fights? X-89 literally becomes easier than Thunderfoot and there's nothing at all fun about him. You lose the essence of the fight.
 
And again, the one-shot mechanics aren't particularly hard, but they do require a little practice to get right. Not to avoid dying (which is easy), but to avoid creating an extremely challenging playing field for others.
 
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I disagree that doing LFR first and then doing the normal raid would dull the experience. They will still experience it just the same. You could argue the same about watching and studying the strat videos that they dull the experience because you know everything about the fight alrready before actually attempting it. Also, a lot of people do LFR only and will probably never plan to venture into the regular Raid. They will do LFR if it's there but if it isn't they will just quit and go play some other game instead. Also, creating a totally new raid just for the LFR will take much more resources than just easing/removing the mechanics of the existing raid. As for one-shot mechanics it's up to the devs, I personally any one-shot mechanics were removed or changed to do something like 70% HP damage. Keep in mind, it has to be fairly easy and doable with 20 other strangers, some of whom might not be very well geared.
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I personally hate multi difficulty raids. Not sure about others, but it burnt me out in WOTLK doing ICC on 10 & 25 man every week, and its the same now with alts in that game we shall not mention.
 
Any way, I like the way the system is, I think someone mentioned that LFR could be used to teach raids, and working as a group, (even if someone didn't I am sure it would be brought up eventually) I thought that was what vet dungeons were for? They taught me the importance of worknig as a team, and gettin our interrupts lined up. Why would we then need LFR? I also find, my first entry into a raid should be a challenging one, not a "ok guys, lets do this on easy first" but thats a matter of opinion. 	
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Exactly.
At the beginning progress is slow in Genetic Archives.
But every time you get more loot and familiarize yourself with the fights it becomes easier.
Right now we're at the point where we can almost clear Genetic Archives in 3-4 hours.	
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I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group contentWhat would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization)
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level?
Raid-quality loot
 
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I personally hate multi difficulty raids. Not sure about others, but it burnt me out in WOTLK doing ICC on 10 & 25 man every week, and its the same now with alts in that game we shall not mention.
 
Any way, I like the way the system is, I think someone mentioned that LFR could be used to teach raids, and working as a group, (even if someone didn't I am sure it would be brought up eventually) I thought that was what vet dungeons were for? They taught me the importance of worknig as a team, and gettin our interrupts lined up. Why would we then need LFR? I also find, my first entry into a raid should be a challenging one, not a "ok guys, lets do this on easy first" but thats a matter of opinion. 
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There's making fights easy, and there's making fights trivial.
Removing the mechanics explained makes them trivial.
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Exactly.
At the beginning progress is slow in Genetic Archives.
But every time you get more loot and familiarize yourself with the fights it becomes easier.
Right now we're at the point where we can almost clear Genetic Archives in 3-4 hours.
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Everyone's understanding of what's trivial differs. It may seem trivial to you but LFR players could wipe 3-4 times before killing it.
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Everyone's understanding of what's trivial differs. It may seem trivial to you but LFR players could wipe 3-4 times before killing it.
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I disagree that doing LFR first and then doing the normal raid would dull the experience. They will still experience it just the same. You could argue the same about watching and studying the strat videos that they dull the experience because you know everything about the fight alrready before actually attempting it.
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Honestly, I think people ask for easymode raids because they think the raids are too hardcore without ever having done them.  They just sort of assume raiding is a six-day-a-week club they're not good enough to join, not understanding that there are a lot of people who've put significantly LESS time in than that and learned to raid.
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As did all raiders the first time they set foot in Genetic Archives.
What you're saying now is that you just want to run inside, one-shot everything and get rewarded for it.
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That's pretty much the case with LFR/Duty Finder in WoW/FF14. Also people can still wipe and do wipe, but normally almost any random group can kill each boss within 1-3 tries or so. A lot of players aren't looking for challenge, they just want to step into a raid, pew pew, collect their loot. There are millions of players like this.
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Exactly.
At the beginning progress is slow in Genetic Archives.
But every time you get more loot and familiarize yourself with the fights it becomes easier.
Right now we're at the point where we can almost clear Genetic Archives in 3-4 hours.
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Everyone's understanding of what's trivial differs. It may seem trivial to you but LFR players could wipe 3-4 times before killing it.
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I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group contentWhat would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization)
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level?
Raid-quality loot
 
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And that's exactly the instant-gratification that is the problem.
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It's only a problem if you view it as a problem. WoW/FF14 don't view it as a problem and enjoy millions of subs and those who use LFR don't see it as a problem. Better than no rid at all for them.
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That's pretty much the case with LFR/Duty Finder in WoW/FF14. Also people can still wipe and do wipe, but normally almost any random group can kill each boss within 1-3 tries or so. A lot of players aren't looking for challenge, they just want to step into a raid, pew pew, collect their loot. There are millions of players like this.
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2. Now see, if I could see the Raid Story in a short zone or even a mini-shiphand solo/duo/trio style instance and get the same (or a similar) personal story, that would just tickle me pink. Bonus points if it's replayable.
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The story behind the genetic archives, is that it used to be a bio-engineering test-facility of the Eldan.
The strain have infiltrated it over the years and took over the facility, using it to mass produce strain monsters.
Your job is to enter the facility and actually take out Ohmna, the original janitor of the place and stop the production of monsters to ensure that both the Dominion and the Exile have an attempt at taking down the entity without having a major army of strain monsters to deal with.	
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There's no story (that I'm aware of) in GA beyond "kill all this stuff- it's evil".
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			LOL, I'm so fail at lore :p	
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Well, that's not very compelling, now is it?  :lol:
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Except they don't, which is why most modern mmos other than WildStar are or have implemented it.
 
We've had this discussion a ton of times; obviously there's always going to be the special snowflakes and entitled players who believe that only they should be able to do raids. That type of player is not the kind of player that can sustain an mmo though. Anyway WS has bigger problems at the moment like the inability to do dungeons/pvp before 50.
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Or perhaps they can actually try the raids before begging their ez-mode raids.
There's so many misconceptions about WildStar raids its unbelievable.
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Of course- what TT was driving yet, and what many of us don't understand, is why a completely changed version of GA the loses the essence of what makes it great over new content that is completely designed to target the audience who wants this?
 
My only point is that the answer of "we want to see what the devs spent time and effort making" doesn't work because that ISN'T what you'd be seeing.
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The fights you do in a regular GA will not be changed at all. LFR is a totally separate raid with the same bosses and different(easier) mechanics. And telling people who want to do LFR to just go do 20 man ship-hands ain't gonna cut it. They are paying customers and if they dislike it they can immediately take their money else-wear.
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My only point is that the answer of "we want to see what the devs spent time and effort making" doesn't work because that ISN'T what you'd be seeing.
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Of course- what TT was driving yet, and what many of us don't understand, is why a completely changed version of GA the loses the essence of what makes it great over new content that is completely designed to target the audience who wants this?
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Well ... technically ... since they'd've made the hypothetical LFR version ... uh ...   :lol:
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Because LFR raiders want to experience the same dungeon maybe?
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Because LFR raiders want to experience the same dungeon maybe?
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No they don't.
You explicitly said they don't want the difficulty of the original raid.
So no, they do not want to experience the same dungeon.
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Ok, so can you unpack this? What is "the same dungeon"? The same setting? The same visuals? What is it that you value?
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They want to experience the same dungeon but with eased difficulty.
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Are you sure that's his point?  Or do you think maybe he's trying to engage the 70% of the population that doesn't raid?
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The same dungeon. The same bosses. The same visuals. Easier difficutly setting.
 
Have you ever played LFR in WoW? Can't be that hard to understand what I'm talking about here, if you have.
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i as a devoted WS player already attuned, i would like it to see it dropped completely.
 
you guys have been really 'stingy' with loot-. its just been recently that finally getting tokens in raids, have been rewarding.
 
and attunement could be less grindy and not so dependent on others to be ingame.
 
it shouldnt be required in  a LFR tool, and it should be very forgiving.- when i played in wow's LFR its was super easy- but-  it was FUN  and rewarding to gear up for a more serious challenge. there was no facerolling or calling people out for mistakes becouse it was a lfr. when you get 20 strangers in a group theres no room to call each other out and turns the experience toxic.
 
also for vet players to help out new players- id like to see attunement across alts characters.	
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Most of us have.
We know how stupidly easy it is.
Almost all encounters ignore the fundamental mechanics of the fights on normal or mythical mode.
You can just stand there and mash your buttons, ignore your surroundings and get rewarded for it.
LFR is nothing even remotely close to what a raid is.
Lowered difficulty? LFR has NO difficulty. Even dungeons in WoW are harder then the abomination that LFR raid has become.
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I get that you are dead-set against it. I think we all get that - but I loves me some Chua-level hyperbole!
 
I also hope you have a little more faith in the devs than to think that they'd nerf *any* content in Wildstar to the point of ridiculous-levels of ease.
 
Easy and "easier" are not the same thing.
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Which again translates into, "I want to have that too, but dont put in the required effort".
So the answer is no.
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The same dungeon. The same bosses. The same visuals. Easier difficutly setting.
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In LFR players get rewarded more for participating than for skill. That's how it is. Also, you are not the intended audience for LFR and obviously have no interest in going there. Your disapproving doesn't matter because it's intended for different kind of players who don't raid the regular GA like you do. You're saying no but I, how to put it, wasn't asking for your permission, Chua Majesty :) It's up to the mods.
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I get that you are dead-set against it. I think we all get that - but I loves me some Chua-level hyperbole!
 
I also hope you have a little more faith in the devs than to think that they'd nerf *any* content in Wildstar to the point of ridiculous-levels of ease.
 
Easy and "easier" are not the same thing.
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What participation?
You can literally stand AFK in todays LFR, wait for the boss kill and still roll on the loot at the end.
Nobody will even notice you were afk to begin with.
So really, what participation?
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Ok, but you CAN'T have the same bosses if you take away the core mechanics that make the bosses what they are.
 
What you can do is replace all of the bosses with a tank and spank version. Get rid of the tiles dropping on x-89. Get rid of the dissapearing phase and the eggs on Kuralak. Get rid of the bombs on Phage maw.
 
There you have an easier version of GA. And the bosses may carry the same names and the same looks, but I'd hardly consider them the "same bosses". But if that's what you want, then whatever. It would be a shame to see. But if it makes people happy. But this loot has to be worse than vet dungeon loot, because the vet dungeons would be more challenging.
 
Why anyone would want *that* over a specifically tailored LFR raid designed for casual players with limited time is beyond me. I'm trying to understand it and I just don't.
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			My main problem with LFR is that it doesnt actually work like it needs to in most cases. Yes it may work for people who dont want to actually raid, cuse its easy enough they can do it without a commitment. The problem with LFR is that its too easy for.people who want to raid but cant always commit to times or people who cant gaurentee when they can actually be online. I went back to wow when my schedule got hectic, figuring i could raid whenever and still have fun. But it was so easy it was just boring. I had more fun doing heroics cuse they were harder. LFR also becomes a near mandatory way of getting gesr even dor seasoned raiders, because why go to a guild raid, and only bring your blue gear when you xan do lfr and get better gear. It basically forces them to.do the same raid over too many times	
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The same dungeon. The same bosses. The same visuals. Easier difficutly setting.
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From reading the last couple pages I think they should just place a training dummy in place of the boss and let you hit it for a couple mins, and then reward you with vet dungeon loot. 
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All the excuses about "not having time" don't hold up if you look at how long they're ingame or online.
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{| class="blockquote"
What participation?
You can literally stand AFK in todays LFR, wait for the boss kill and still roll on the loot at the end.
Nobody will even notice you were afk to begin with.
So really, what participation?
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			I feel that for those who don't want to/ can't raid on a schedule, changing the lock out to be loot per boss rather than instance wide would be far better than LFR.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I honestly don't care about how hard stuff is. I care about how fun it is. And you are talking about removing everything that is fun about the instance.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
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I hate LFR. In general i don't think every aspect of a mmo content must be accessible by everyone. Raids are for raiders, both for casuals and hardcores. Those who want LFR are not raiders at all. They want a piece of content they don't like or its not in their priorities. I m not raiding at the moment because i don't have the time to do it. I don't care if i wont see the raid content. I m not for asking for a retarded mode to do it. I just accept its not for me this period. So simple.
On the other hand i will agree with SlyJeff that Raid Locks must be per boss loot, not to instance. This is very critical imho and helps pug groups A LOT.
I also like a lot Flex Raids. An auto scale raid between 17-23 ppl would be a great change.	
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So on the one hand, we have people who don't want to or can't commit to the time needed to do raids as they are now. And no matter how much you say you it isn't that time consuming, it can be a burden. I am in the DS now, and have had GA on farm for awhile, so I know how much fun I found the content while I was going through it, but you have to respect that some people may not have those same desires of progression at the pace that is set by most groups.
 
And while it would be awesome for them to make a new easier raid, that takes a lot more dev time than maybe tuning GA. There would be stuff for the raid team, new animations, etc... Alternatively, it would be cool to create content that new people could see without having to develop completely new animations.
 
Heres what I think would be neded if there was a LFR
 
1) Gear dropped is a sidegrade to dungeon gear OR only costume pieces OR killing a LFR boss locks you out of receiving loot on that boss from a regular run. I like the side grade to dungeon loot best or else you end up with people doing LFR groups before they can get into a GA group, but hey what are you gonna do.
 
2) all trash goes to tank and spank. While some of the mechanics are fun, they aren't what I would want devs spending time on and trash sinks a good bit of time in raid. If you want to lower the time requirement making trash much easier or faster would be a way to go
 
3) maybe remove a lot of minis. I don't know if it is worth the time to tune them down and again, the suck time away from the raid. Esp Ohmna minis. Oh god the Ohmna minis
 
4) Here would be my thoughts on how to make the bosses more puggable.
 
X89 - Lower health substantially (shorter fight means fewer platforms will die)
Remove the shockwave attack killing platforms to make it a bit easier on tanks
Keep small and big bomb, but lower the frequency and increase the time they take to get rid of it. Personal accountability still necessary
 
Kuralak - Remove pillar phase (no raid does it anyway with OV T8) to make no engi required
Lower  Kuras health so that the raid easily finishes after 4 egg phase. Still got to do eggs but you don't have the cluster*cupcake* that is 8 egg phase to learn
 
Phage maw - Go from 4 and 5 bombs shot out down to 2 and 3 bombs shot out. Still have to deal with bombs, but it should be alot easier
 
Prototypes - Make the Augmentors heal much smaller to forgive it getting through more
Remove singularity
Lower flare damage
Make fewer bores spawn
Lower health (lower health probably goes with most fights)
 
Convergence.
No more eggs from squid
Increase the time by 10-15 seconds that mid phases last to allow for more mistakes time. 
Make waves less one shotty
Make frog skill cast a bit less frequent and more forgiving.
Golgox doesn't require quite as many people to stack.
Lower health to make fight a bit quicker
 
Ohmna.
Lower the rate at which you gather stacks
Lower the squid spawn rate and their health
lower adds health
fewer mini adds spawn after 1st  add phase (maybe 1-2 instead of 3)
get rid of spew on tentacle phase
2 tentacles so that there is only 2 tanks needed.
 
The problem is that even if you did all these things, then you would be looking at still needing coordination and effort and probably some sort of voices. People are right that to remove the coordination requirement is to make all the fun boss fights a tank and spank and really would not keep the essence of GA.	
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Moment of history.  I raided 10-mans in BC and raided hardcore progression in WotLK (including that abominable ToC), and then I pretty much retired in Cataclysm.  My younger son had been playing on his brother's account during Cataclysm and into Pandaland and told me he'd gotten into raiding.  I was kind of surprised, and then I found out about LFR.  I couldn't figure out how that was raiding, but he was having fun.
 
For giggles, I picked up Draenor and we leveled characters up to 100 and I got to personally experience LFR.  
 
It is not a raid in any sense that I appreciate.  Obviously this is a personal definition, but a raid is
creative game mechanics requiring
ensemble work requiring communication and coordination leading to 
tools to facilitate the next encounter
 
That's pretty much it.  There's nothing particularly creative in trivializing mechanics to the point that there's no risk, there's no requirement for ensemble work less than a 5 man dungeon, and people are just looking for something new to strap to their groin.
 
I was bored the first time through.  My son took a little longer and likewise became bored -- until he actually hooked up with people who do actual raiding, and he agrees with me now that what LFR is... well it's not raiding.  It has nothing except the last item.  Everything has been tuned down so far as to truly make it pointless.  I actually think Blizz knew this, which is why they added that Khadgar questline so you not even farming the LFR for loot, you're encouraged strongly to go back for those stones over and over and over again.
 
This is not elitism.  This is not hardcore (I'm in a group making progress on Ohmna).  This is just being coldly rational.  It's not a raid.  
 
Now, that being said, people like what they like and I'm sure given the responses I've seen here, people like LFR.  If people ACTUALLY want to raid, then hey, give it to them.  Provide a queue.  Make it so that it requires 4 people clicking both Tank and DPS.  Make it requires at least 4 people clicking both Heal and DPS.  The rest can be DPS.  Provide no voice chat.  Do not change the encounters an iota.
 
Group won't get out of the first room if, in fact, you can get that queue to pop.  Welcome to raiding, cupcake.  It requires !@#$ ENSEMBLE WORK AND COMMUNICATION and COORDINATION.  If you think you don't have time to raid now, imagine how much longer it's going to take when you are dealing with people who also don't have time to raid.
 
Asbestos jammies firmly strapped.  If you're going to have LFR, make it the exact same raid as everyone else is doing and godspeed.  If you make a Blizzard style LFR, for the love of all that is Eldan, please call it "Looking for Loot Pinata" because it is nothing more.	
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			Btw i think before we even discuss about LFR or not, we must get that improved LFG tool. A WoW / GW2 LFG tool would be amassing and imho its maybe the no1 needed addition for WS, at least as it concerns group play.	
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{| class="blockquote"
What participation?
You can literally stand AFK in todays LFR, wait for the boss kill and still roll on the loot at the end.
Nobody will even notice you were afk to begin with.
So really, what participation?
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{| class="blockquote"
Pssssst. You can literally stand AFK in todays DS, wait for the boss kill, and have the raid leader hand you loot at the end.
 
So really, not so different from todays existing top tier WS raid.
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{| class="blockquote"
Btw i think before we even discuss about LFR or not, we must get that improved LFG tool. A WoW / GW2 LFG tool would be amassing and imho its maybe the no1 needed addition for WS, at least as it concerns group play.
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{| class="blockquote"
Pssssst. You can literally stand AFK in todays DS, wait for the boss kill, and have the raid leader hand you loot at the end.
 
So really, not so different from todays existing top tier WS raid.
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{| class="blockquote"
Btw i think before we even discuss about LFR or not, we must get that improved LFG tool. A WoW / GW2 LFG tool would be amassing and imho its maybe the no1 needed addition for WS, at least as it concerns group play.
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{| class="blockquote"
The problem is that even if you did all these things, then you would be looking at still needing coordination and effort and probably some sort of voices.
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{| class="blockquote"
The problem is that even if you did all these things, then you would be looking at still needing coordination and effort and probably some sort of voices. People are right that to remove the coordination requirement is to make all the fun boss fights a tank and spank and really would not keep the essence of GA.
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{| class="blockquote"
As a guild who is still progressing through ds, one person dying(this can equal to afk i guess) early in a fight is basically 100% wipe. So no you can't be afk in DS.
 
As Kipit said, maybe you've seen guilds who have everything on farm and power through content. That is very different from progressing through ds, if a person was to afk in one of our raids, even on content we're supposed to have on farm, it would be an almost certain wipe.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, there is something to be said for scheduled vs unscheduled. I can't get my wife into a raid because it's difficult for her to schedule time, even though she can often put in the time to do it. We're still trying to figure out a way to get her into GA. I'm hoping I can start putting together some alt raids for folks like her once we get more progressed (and I find another DPS sword for my alt!)
 
So I get it in that sense. I just hate the idea of removing everything that is fun in GA for the sake of LFR.
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{| class="blockquote"
Btw i think before we even discuss about LFR or not, we must get that improved LFG tool. A WoW / GW2 LFG tool would be amassing and imho its maybe the no1 needed addition for WS, at least as it concerns group play.
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{| class="blockquote"
That said, I still find your lack of faith in the content devs to be disturbing, commander.
 
I know, I know ... you guys have seen the "joke" that is LFR in WoW. But as we've all said for a long time, this ain't WoW. The basic game mechanics ALONE make the idea of a face-roll raid nearly impossible. I mean, yeah, I guess they could go the "tank and spank everything route" but somehow I think the raid designers are a brighter, more creative bunch of guys and gals than that. They know what a challenge is all about, and to think that they'd just replace all the fight mechanics with standing still and casting damage ... well, that seems fairly well disingenuous to me.
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{| class="blockquote"
First: Nobody is proposing that ANYTHING be removed from GA at all. GA as it currently exists should continue to exist in all its artistic glory. I think we can all agree on that.
 
Second: The fact that the only things you find fun about GA are things that cannot be pugged using a LFR tool should not be mistaken for the idea that these same things are the only things that that the intended audience of LFR--people who would likely not otherwise enter the content at all--would find fun.
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I'm curious why does a LFR system like TOR is not OK? I mean, the raid is 100% the same, same difficulty same everything, it just matches you into a group that has the numbers & roles already set in. It literally just finds another 7/15 people depending on the raid size you picked.
 
Does a system that just finds another 19 people who want to raid not be OK? I would rather that than any easier/tuned down instance. I'd love something in game to do what I do every weekend, look for a PUG group to run with. This system would just let me queue and wait for it while doing other things. 
 
If I'm not coming across clear, I mean a system like how the LFG dungeon system works right now, same instance, same difficulty and everything, just matches you with 3 other people. 
 
edit- Is it communication? I mean in ToR, when I pug a raid, everyone ends up in a TS or w/e normally anyway. Or the people who run it are just so used to it, that everything is talked about in chat and then people just do it.	
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{| class="blockquote"
First: Nobody is proposing that ANYTHING be removed from GA at all. GA as it currently exists should continue to exist in all its artistic glory. I think we can all agree on that.
 
Second: The fact that the only things you find fun about GA are things that cannot be pugged using a LFR tool should not be mistaken for the idea that these same things are the only things that that the intended audience of LFR--people who would likely not otherwise enter the content at all--would find fun.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm curious why does a LFR system like TOR is not OK? I mean, the raid is 100% the same, same difficulty same everything, it just matches you into a group that has the numbers & roles already set in. It literally just finds another 7/15 people depending on the raid size you picked.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group contentWhat would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization)
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level?
Raid-quality loot
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Again, you don't understand X-89. There's a tile you are standing on. It drops if you stand on it with a bomb. This will kill you because you've fallen to your death. But the "one shot" part isn't what makes it interesting. What makes it interesting is now everyone else has to deal with the hole you left in the floor. If you chose wisely, whether you managed to get off and survive or not, then it has a limited effect on the raid. A gradually tightening noose. If you chose unwisely, well the whole thing gets crazy really fast (and pulling off the fight after a few bad drops also is exciting and fun).
 
Taking out one-shot mechanics mean this fight would have never been created. Which would be a shame, because it really is an amazing and fun fight. One of the best I've ever done, in fact.
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{| class="blockquote"
If it were *me* in the LFR boat, I'd want better content than that- rather than a GA "light" I'd prefer to have something designed just for me that would be more than just GA stripped of its soul.
 
 
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Hey folks,Just as a reminder for those who didn't see a few pages back, Timetravel is looking for some player input here from those who are in favour of LFR so don't forget to leave your thoughts on his specific questions. :) 
{| class="blockquote"
I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group content
What would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"?
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization)
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level?
Raid-quality loot
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{| class="blockquote"
The least forgiving variant: The mechanic is entirely unaltered, but the Caretaker says when you enter the room: "Oh, dear, he's got homing-bombs. If he attaches one to you, you'd best run from the center of the room and sacrifice yourself away from everyone else, for the greater good." Protip: This one doesn't even give away how to survive, just how to not cause a wipe.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
If you want to make PuG content, you have to make it, well, PuG content - and that means you have to cut out the voice coordination requirement. If you open up content that PuGs cannot handle to PuGs, you'll just end up with non-popping queues again....
 
Just call it a simulation, make the bosses pale blue transparent holograms, and limit the loot. If you make the distinction between "simulated" and "real" clear enough, then I think the bragging rights of those doing the real raid would survive. And if people know that this "simulation" is less fun than the real thing, well then it is a good motivation to upgrade, isn't it?
 
We already have normal and veteran versions of shiphands, adventures and dungeons, so two difficulty versions of even more instance content should not be unimaginable.
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{| class="blockquote"
Because you are talking about an instance that will take people unfamiliar with it weeks to get down. And you are talking about an instance that requires voice communication while you are learning it. You can't just jam 20 people together in a GA run and expect it to be fun. It won't be.
 
That would be a fine thing for alt runs (people who know it) and is why on weekends there are PUG GA runs going all the time.
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{| class="blockquote"
This mechanic does not need to be "Oneshot or remove". There's lots of ways this can be made more forgiving without removing it entirely.
 
The least forgiving variant: The mechanic is entirely unaltered, but the Caretaker says when you enter the room: "Oh, dear, he's got homing-bombs. If he attaches one to you, you'd best run from the center of the room and sacrifice yourself away from everyone else, for the greater good." Protip: This one doesn't even give away how to survive, just how to not cause a wipe.
 
A somewhat more forgiving variant: The same, but the time between bomb application and detonation is increased a bit.
 
An even simpler and even more forgiving variant: The tiles near the center can withstand the damage of two bombs without dropping. The first one causes the tile to weaken in some OBVIOUS way that makes it clear what the danger is just by looking at it, like big cracks along the surface of the tile, or a warning message. The tiles near the edges drop with only one bomb.
 
So if your group is determined to stand in one spot and just tank and spank, they still lose the center tiles and all die. The noose still tightens. There is still a reason to run to the edges. But one clueless guy who doesn't run with the bomb doesn't instantly wipe the group.
 
I expect that most--if not all--of these mechanics that are claimed to be impossible to retain in a PUG can similarly be tweaked to make them more forgiving and more amenable to PUGs without removing the underlying concept.
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{| class="blockquote"
Asbestos jammies firmly strapped.  If you're going to have LFR, make it the exact same raid as everyone else is doing and godspeed.  If you make a Blizzard style LFR, for the love of all that is Eldan, please call it "Looking for Loot Pinata" because it is nothing more.
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{| class="blockquote"
Therein lies the crux though. Creating all-new, all-different, all-unique content has to be like a thousand times more labor-intensive from the development standpoint. I ain't saying re-tuning a raid isn't tough or time consuming, but seriously, it's got to be a dang-sight less tine consuming than creating something from scratch.
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{| class="blockquote"
The LFG I'm talking about does exactly what happens on the weekends here, matches people with others who want to run the raid. It just cuts out the middleman of asking around and such and makes it easier to find a group. And if people who don't know the instance get matched with those who do, they might actually get to learn the instance.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
I'm curious:  For folks in favor of LFR, what are you looking for?
Very low barrier to entry (ie, forgiving difficulty, limited time investment, minimal organizational requirements) large-group content - No, I want the same content, just a way to get a group for the content. Same idea behind the LFG for dungeons.What would you view as a reasonable "limited time investment"? - 3 to 4 hours
Which of those three is the largest turn-off to you? (difficulty, time, or organization) - Organization
Pass to see the lore and story and characters in the raid zones. Or, well, do you want to *specifically* see Genetic Archives and Datascape (and Initialization Core Y-83 soon!) or simply any [some cool zone] that scratches the itch of content at the suggested difficulty level? 
Raid-quality loot - If it's the same difficulty as the normal GA/DS then yep, raid quality loot. If less, then lower, if higher then higher. 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Best suggestion by far, but still means you are going to suffer a lot of wipes due to people not executing properly. It certainly won't make it easy enough that a random pug thrown together will be easily able to clear the instance with any kind of speed.
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{| class="blockquote"
The same dungeon. The same bosses. The same visuals. Easier difficutly setting.
 
Have you ever played LFR in WoW? Can't be that hard to understand what I'm talking about here, if you have.
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{| class="blockquote"
Of course, if they *did* create all-new, all-special content just for the LFR people, then the "real raiders" would scream that Carbine is wasting it's time on less-than-Endgame content, now wouldn't you? Would you really rather know they were spending valuable development time making content that you'd already bypassed on the ladder? Or would you honestly rather have new Endgame content you *hadn't* already out-leveled?
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{| class="blockquote"
Come on Tex, give raiders more credit than that. Raiders are not the selfish people so many players paint them to be!
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{| class="blockquote"
The LFG tool I'm working on will make it easier to PUG GA :) Even now if you run it during the weekends it lists GA runs looking for PUGs pretty consistently (on entity exile side, at least).
 
(Currently all it does is track LFG messages in chat).
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{| class="blockquote"
Who said it needed to be a faceroll?
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{| class="blockquote"
Everyone saying you don't need voice coms and you need to be able to clear the thing in three hours or so.
 
 
 
I have never mined combat logs for information in determining what caused wipes. It's always VERY obvious what caused wipes in GA. That's one thing that is great about this game. As for "reflexes and gaming skills", that's not really the hard port. The hard part is getting everyone on the same page following the same strategy. Once everyone knows what the strat is and can execute it, the boss goes down.
 
In my raid circle we have folks that raid on other toons. I'm constantly hearing things like "In my other raid we do it like xyz", or "I really like the way you guys do part abc". The point is that each team ends up creating a strat that works for them, and tweaking the strats of others. At least, until you out gear the encounters. This kind of strategizing and adjusting to the fight is way more important than reflexes, but it's also the kind of difficult thing to organize in pug groups.
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{| class="blockquote"
I think the devs putting effort into either of these is going to mean delaying new raid content. But if it must be, it must be. Thankfully, I'm still in GA so have a long way to go.
 
But I think you assume to much about what the "real raiders" would scream about. I didn't hear any screaming from real raiders about vet shiphands or the new level 10 dungeon. In fact, it seems the vet shiphands have been seen to be a boon to the game by virtually everyone.
 
I just think that a watered down GA wouldn't be that much fun for anyway, and Carbine could do much better creating a puggable raid from scratch that everyone could enjoy.
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, thanks a lot! I'll keep an eye out for that as it's exactly what I want since I have no active guild in this game  :D
 
But I do think that this kind of system should be built into the game and not an addon (though I'll take the addon for now).
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{| class="blockquote"
reflex does matter. in DS, we all know the fight, but weirdly enough it is always the same people dying.... in the end the good players gets pissed off and leave the guild and then join a "better" guild.
thus creating guilds made of good players and guilds made of bad players.
the guild made mostly of bad players will then get discouraged because they cannot clear the content and will disband.
 
and wildstar will die :)
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{| class="blockquote"
Right- I'm talking about GA. DS will be a whole different bag I'm sure. But I think GA has made us all better players, so hopefully we'll be more prepared when we get there :)
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{| class="blockquote"
This game should have had a puggable version of raid instances in it from the start, just like it should have had Veteran Shiphands in it from the start. You may not like the perspective of the unwashed masses, but they're the ones who pay the bills and the longer you tell them to just wait while you work on new stuff, the longer this game atrophies.
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{| class="blockquote"
reflex does matter. in DS
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{| class="blockquote"
Nonsense. If your guild dies to constant loss of players to "better" guilds, you're doing it wrong on another level than actual raiding performance.
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The thing about WOW's LFR is that it was short. We're not talking about a 3 hour raid here. These were done in 30-60 mins, tops. There isn't anything raid-quality that can be done that quickly without totally butchering the zone up into multiple instances.
 
Now I only did LFR for a few months during LK, so there may be different iterations of it since then, but I remember doing the joust one and it didn't take very long at all.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Called "LFG Board". Admittedly, it's in very early stages- but I still find it helps me find missed LFG opportunities (assuming you are in the LFG channel, or whatever it is on your server).
 
By the end of this weekend (maybe even tonight) I'll have added the ability to create LFG listings in tool that will be available to all other people with the tool immediately upon log in. Next will come the ability to "apply" for groups, but that's probably another week out. But more people will have to use it for those features to really be beneficial anyway.
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{| class="blockquote"
Who said it needed to be a faceroll? A random pug doesn't need to be able to do it easily the first time they try. They can have a few wipes too, the only people who will be ragequitting over that will be the hardcore folks who don't tolerate any noobiness in their raid instance.
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{| class="blockquote"
So that means it's up for download? Nice. I didn't even know about a LFG channel, I just came back to the game a week. If you know what it is on Entity lemme know XD
 
And no more OT - I still think a LFG for raids the same style as the dungeons are will be a good thing.
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{| class="blockquote"
well, the players that are consistently better than the raid and feel that they could clear the content if they play with players of their caliber will definitely eventually leave the "bad" guild and go play with better players.
it happened to a lot of guild.
 
so don't say it is nonsense when i saw it happen many many times.
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{| class="blockquote"
First: you don't need to be able to clear the entire raid in three hours or so. You need to be able to make some clear progress and move to a progression checkpoint that lets you start your next PUG at that checkpoint if you so choose, and you need to be able to do THAT block within an hour or so. There can be several of those progression checkpoints in the raid instance. MMORPGs take large amounts of time in total, that's not a deterrent for most MMORPG players. What is a deterrent is large continuous blocks of time.
 
Second: There's several levels of difficulty that can sit between "Nightmare" and "I'm Too Young To Die", but your "if it's something a PUG can do then by definition it's a faceroll" has been duly noted.
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{| class="blockquote"
Essentially, "LFR" exists elsewhere already, and people think it's too easy or a time sink grind if it's a 20 man in the open world.  Everybody calls that a "grind", which it certainly is.  Without the difficulty that gives it meaning, a raid is nothing more than a meaningless grind with 19 random people, all doing their own thing.  There aren't people lovingly putting together groups and guilds to run Lightspire raids ad infinatum. Obviously, it's not enough to have content, people want to "raid" because they're married to the idea of the "endgame" and also take the gospel of the "hardcore" to heart without even bothering to try it.
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{| class="blockquote"
If you could add checkpoints, then just leave everything at current difficulty level and there's no problem.
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			I was going under the assumption that people had to clear the raid in a single sitting to be LFR applicable. If you only have to do one boss in a sitting, then it becomes a different story altogether.	
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The solution its obvious, TT has given us a hint, why instead of a GA version in LFR we got another content GA inspired with the same bosses and simillar fights but not the same that grasp the content, that is puggable  and requires less people (10 man), and gives itm lvl 61 and is divided by wings (short time sessions)
 
example
 
Sistem core of the Genetic Archives- act 1
 
X-88 (a smaller experiment predecesor of x-89 so not having his full capacities but its pretty similar, not big bomb but a ton of little bombs in a smaller room)gravitron matrix (a hologram of gravitron, you must damage the interface so he cant communicate with the sistem core of the GA fight very similar but damage lowered, if you dont fall into the spot the damage is not instant but by a dot)
phage maw ( a very similar fight but at the end it mutates and you barelly escape, leaving the stronger phage maw for the raiders that will come later)
 
this 3 can be the act 1, you can queue for it in the LFG tool, it can be completed in 1 to 2 hours, gives pets versions of the bosses, decors and costumes, and gear itm lvl 61 and at the end give one piece itm lvl 63,   it being a prelude to GA, it unlocks by beating SSM reg, and vet STL KV and SC, no need of medals just complete them, the dps needed will be 3k on the bosses (2,5k is needed in order to beat stormtalon so 3k is a good milestone for something like this) and  the healers can do good with 2,3 sp.
 
this will give the non raiders a gasp of the fights (not all but the majority) be another gear filler preparing for raids (SSM and protogames still give itm lvl 61 and 63 so giving it there wouldnt be a problem) and the raiders wont feel they got their content watered down because it will be in another zone GA inspired with previous versions of the bosses with similar fights but not the same fights that give lesser and fewer loot.	
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			On a tongue in cheek note, any "seeing the content" raid that does not involve wipeing to Phage Maw at least once by not activating the shield would be a travesty of untold proportions. Everyone should get to experience that at least once.	
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Thanks for asking, TT. 
 
I'm interested in an LFR system if it attracts new players without undermining one of Wildstar's most defining and appealing characteristics: PvE difficulty. 
 
I'll be frank: I don't think you can use an LFR system to allow an "easy mode" version of the existing raids without seriously damaging Wildstar. Please don't do it. 
 
On the other hand, I think there is some room for an LFR system that exists alongside the existing PvE modes, provided it doesn't "steal" from their content. That means new LFR-specific content which, at this time, is probably not the best use of development resources. Sure, you could recycle some character models, re-use a few mechanics (perhaps simplified), and even revisit scenes encountered elsewhere, but please don't make LFR an "easy mode" raid. 
 
That said, I do think there is room for LFR content, basically something like 20-man boss-in-a-box encounters. These could award dungeon-level loot and cosmetic items, but I wouldn't put raid-level gear in here. 
 
Thanks for collecting feedback.	
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