114676-on-f2p-the-possibility-of-page-6

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Revenues went up compared to what?
 
You are a game company, and your game is not performing as you like. 
You choose to go F2P and revenues increase.
You do nothing (this is the wrong thing to compare with)
You do something else, and what happens? THIS is what we need to compare to.
We should be comparing the benefit of different solutions, rather than comparing the problem and one solution.
 
F2P looks like a huge win from those numbers, but has anyone attempted another solution? And how effective was that?
 
Has anyone tried to eat the losses for a few months and bring up the quality of the game so that subscribers increase? Probably not, because shareholders are like panicky school girls.
 
But comparing a game that is failing, with just one possible solution, tells us very little about that solutions value compared to other solutions.
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SWTOR ate losses (presumably) for many months before going FTP. The game cost 100+ million to make, they sold a couple million of copies but didn't retain hardly any of them for more than the first 2 to 3 months (sound familiar?). The servers were dead, end game raiding was buggy as all get out. But, they had a huge IP and costumes even before FTP was huge. So when their cash shop came out with basically lottery packs (boomboxes, but slightly better because you always got one blue something that is remotely useful....most of the time) it went viral with the FTP crowd and whales started funding a dying game. Now I don't agree with a lot of what SWTOR did as far as being so restrictive on action bars, raiding, and pvp without a sub. But you do get to level to 50 for free, so eh. But the game did survive and even start to make money, and then new development started coming out. New raids, the space mini game pvp for spaceship combat. So yeah, most would argue despite obvious flaws that the conversion saved that game from the scrap pile.
 
Tera, and GW2 have far better FTP/BTP models in my opinion.
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			I wouldn't really worry about free to play at all.NCSoft has a track record of just pulling the plug on unprofitable projects rather than changing business models.This game will more than likely be in the trash bin sooner than any free to play becomes an option	
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I wouldn't really worry about free to play at all.
 
NCSoft has a track record of just pulling the plug on unprofitable projects rather than changing business models.
This game will more than likely be in the trash bin sooner than any free to play becomes an option
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It's not really F2P if you get complete access to everything the same as a subscriber. Someone else is paying your subscription. It keeps Carbine from having to worry about how to hock stuff they want us to buy when we're all paid up per head.
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Didn't city of Heros or Champions Online or something like that break away from NCSoft to keep developing?
 
I'd hate for Wildstar to be Tabula Rasa'd. :(
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Didn't city of Heros or Champions Online or something like that break away from NCSoft to keep developing?
 
I'd hate for Wildstar to be Tabula Rasa'd. :(
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Am I the only one that doesn't care if f2p is more profitable or not?
 
I don't want it to go f2p because the paywall reduces the amount of gold spam and other various scrubs from turning the game into a cesspool.
 
I also can't stand having the game try to shake you down for more money everyone something opens in game.
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			9) Players who are 50, doing dungeons and waiting for megaservers to find a raiding guild.	
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Still you are comparing the "failure phase" with one solution.
 
SWTOR did not do any significant changes before going F2P.  Going F2P was their solution to losing money.
 
The other solution would have been to eat losses until they are finished actually updating the game to a higher quality.
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Except Wildstar is tons of fun right now and SWTOR wasn't.
 
I guess I may be in the minority, though, because I'm having fun right now and don't need drop 3 to save the game.	
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Except Wildstar is tons of fun right now and SWTOR wasn't.
 
I guess I may be in the minority, though, because I'm having fun right now and don't need drop 3 to save the game.
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Except Wildstar is tons of fun right now and SWTOR wasn't.
 
I guess I may be in the minority, though, because I'm having fun right now and don't need drop 3 to save the game.
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Here's the thing though. If you're happy and having fun, that's great. Unfortunately, there's more people unhappy than happy and you two can't fund the game yourselves. 
 
I was having fun also, while being annoyed off and on at some of the stupid things. It was the same for me in SWTOR, even though I played it from Alpha until 6-7 months after release. Alas, my raiding friends have moved on and I'm dragging myself through dailies to do something when I'm logged in. It's a good thing Pergo and Stormtalon have good pops, or I'd never get into an Adeventure for a change of pace.
 
You guys have to admit there are some "pants on head" stupid things going on in the game. The RNG is ridiculous, the crafting is out of whack, bugs that have been in since Beta and supposedly have been fixed (which aren't), and the list just goes on. Sure, Carbine is addressing them, but definately not fast enough and it's past the time most people decided to give them to fix it.
 
I think F2P is coming and there isn't a thing we can do about it. 	
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Actually SWTOR did exactly what Wildstar is attempting to do.
 
They released a very large "expansion" around the 3-4 month mark that added what they thought was a good amount of stuff for end game and things they touted as fixes for multiple problems.
 
The population turned on them because they thought that should have been in at release. Which, it should have. After the population chewed through that content in less than a couple weeks, SWTOR was right back where it was before that patch.
 
If this sounds familiar, it's because this is exactly what Wildstar is doing now, and heading for. Shove the game out the door even though it's not ready, blow smoke for 3-4 months, scramble with a "Hail Mary" attempt, act shocked when the "Hail Mary" doesn't right the ship, flounder for awhile, then go F2P.
 
In recent memory, as mine goes back to UO/DAoC/EG, the 3 biggest failures have been SWTOR, WAR, and AoC. We'll just toss AoC because it was a PoS. SWTOR and WAR, soon to add Wildstar, fell on their asses because they promised the moon and delivered a picture of the moon you would get 9-12 months after you bought your ticket to the moon. The one thing those games had that Wildstar doesn't, is IP/Name Brand. That's not going to buy them the additional time that SWTOR and WAR got before being forced into a F2P model.
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Here's the thing though. If you're happy and having fun, that's great. Unfortunately, there's more people unhappy than happy and you two can't fund the game yourselves. 
 
I was having fun also, while being annoyed off and on at some of the stupid things. It was the same for me in SWTOR, even though I played it from Alpha until 6-7 months after release. Alas, my raiding friends have moved on and I'm dragging myself through dailies to do something when I'm logged in. It's a good thing Pergo and Stormtalon have good pops, or I'd never get into an Adeventure for a change of pace.
 
You guys have to admit there are some "pants on head" stupid things going on in the game. The RNG is ridiculous, the crafting is out of whack, bugs that have been in since Beta and supposedly have been fixed (which aren't), and the list just goes on. Sure, Carbine is addressing them, but definately not fast enough and it's past the time most people decided to give them to fix it.
 
I think F2P is coming and there isn't a thing we can do about it. 
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Here's the thing though. If you're happy and having fun, that's great. Unfortunately, there's more people unhappy than happy and you two can't fund the game yourselves. 
 
I was having fun also, while being annoyed off and on at some of the stupid things. It was the same for me in SWTOR, even though I played it from Alpha until 6-7 months after release. Alas, my raiding friends have moved on and I'm dragging myself through dailies to do something when I'm logged in. It's a good thing Pergo and Stormtalon have good pops, or I'd never get into an Adeventure for a change of pace.
 
You guys have to admit there are some "pants on head" stupid things going on in the game. The RNG is ridiculous, the crafting is out of whack, bugs that have been in since Beta and supposedly have been fixed (which aren't), and the list just goes on. Sure, Carbine is addressing them, but definately not fast enough and it's past the time most people decided to give them to fix it.
 
I think F2P is coming and there isn't a thing we can do about it. 
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Except Wildstar is tons of fun right now and SWTOR wasn't.
 
I guess I may be in the minority, though, because I'm having fun right now and don't need drop 3 to save the game.
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Here's the thing though. If you're happy and having fun, that's great. Unfortunately, there's more people unhappy than happy and you two can't fund the game yourselves. 
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Vic, there is nothing we can do about it. You can try all you want, rally the troops, throw out ideas, write a Folk song, anything you can think of. There's nothing we can do about it. We don't work there, we don't make the decisions, and far more people have already spoken with their wallets. Even then, if that's what they want, it's going to happen. Maybe we'll be lucky and they won't.
 
Allow me to clarify "not fast enough" since it seems to be confusing a couple people.
 
If something should have never made it into the game, according to consumers, it will never be fixed fast enough. The RNG asshattery should have never made it into the live release. If it was fixed within the first month before anyone realized it was a huge problem, that might have been fast enough. Several months after launch, definitely not fast enough. Carbine was in a no win situation on this.
 
As for WAR, yes the controls were garbage but the biggest shot to the face they took was delivering about 50% of the content they promised at end game (just like SWTOR) and what end game was there was bugged to hell and back. If people reach max level and there isn't enough to do, and what there is TO DO is buggy and has crappy rewards..... you might as well kiss your subscribers goodbye and pray for a miracle.	
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Vic, there is nothing we can do about it. You can try all you want, rally the troops, throw out ideas, write a Folk song, anything you can think of. There's nothing we can do about it. We don't work there, we don't make the decisions, and far more people have already spoken with their wallets. Even then, if that's what they want, it's going to happen. Maybe we'll be lucky and they won't.
 
Allow me to clarify "not fast enough" since it seems to be confusing a couple people.
 
If something should have never made it into the game, according to consumers, it will never be fixed fast enough. The RNG asshattery should have never made it into the live release. If it was fixed within the first month before anyone realized it was a huge problem, that might have been fast enough. Several months after launch, definitely not fast enough. Carbine was in a no win situation on this.
 
As for WAR, yes the controls were garbage but the biggest shot to the face they took was delivering about 50% of the content they promised at end game (just like SWTOR) and what end game was there was bugged to hell and back. If people reach max level and there isn't enough to do, and what there is TO DO is buggy and has crappy rewards..... you might as well kiss your subscribers goodbye and pray for a miracle.
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I can't say that I don't like F2P more/less than B2P or P2P. I've Beta, and Alpha, tested every MMO since the dawn of time and there are definitely some F2P models that are better than others.
 
SWTOR, to me, is one of (if not THE) worst setups. The things they chose to put behind the paywall really inhibits your gameplay. Their a la carte setup also sucks. 
 
STO isn't too bad, but they offer a Lifetime Sub that earns you back crystals to purchase their "Zen" coins. They also have an avenue to earn those crystal in the game. The Crystal/Zen/Key/Credit setup allows all types of players to contribute in an even manner. Their a la carte system seems to be laid out fairly well.
 
Neverwinter, once you blast through their content, there isn't too much of a game there. The odd thing here is that it's the same guys as STO, but a completely different setup. This seems to have a bad version of the STO setup with no way to play/farm your way into the system like STO has.
 
WoT, the one thing I like here is that I buy Gold and then can use it for whatever I want. I can use it for a sub, for a tank, for ammo, whatever. If I feel I'm leveling a tech tree too slow, I can sub. If I want to have an OP tank, I can buy it. If I want some better ammo or consumables, I can buy those. Here it's all on the player to decide what benefits him the most. 
 
There are many other models for F2P out there, it's on them to decide what they think will bring people back. If they go F2P.	
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I can't say that I don't like F2P more/less than B2P or P2P. I've Beta, and Alpha, tested every MMO since the dawn of time and there are definitely some F2P models that are better than others.
 
SWTOR, to me, is one of (if not THE) worst setups. The things they chose to put behind the paywall really inhibits your gameplay. Their a la carte setup also sucks. 
 
STO isn't too bad, but they offer a Lifetime Sub that earns you back crystals to purchase their "Zen" coins. They also have an avenue to earn those crystal in the game. The Crystal/Zen/Key/Credit setup allows all types of players to contribute in an even manner. Their a la carte system seems to be laid out fairly well.
 
Neverwinter, once you blast through their content, there isn't too much of a game there. The odd thing here is that it's the same guys as STO, but a completely different setup. This seems to have a bad version of the STO setup with no way to play/farm your way into the system like STO has.
 
WoT, the one thing I like here is that I buy Gold and then can use it for whatever I want. I can use it for a sub, for a tank, for ammo, whatever. If I feel I'm leveling a tech tree too slow, I can sub. If I want to have an OP tank, I can buy it. If I want some better ammo or consumables, I can buy those. Here it's all on the player to decide what benefits him the most. 
 
There are many other models for F2P out there, it's on them to decide what they think will bring people back. If they go F2P.
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Part of the problem is that there's some kind of dichotomy that developed somewhere along the line where you have two options:  subscriptions and F2P in the models as we understand it.
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Other models have been brought up a number of times in a number of other games. But a lot of them seem even less appealing to the players then F2P does. For example if you start a thread with a topic "lets add advertising to Wildstar" I can tell you the flames will be high and hot...
 
Myself I wouldn't mind, but I know there's a ton of people who would quit over such a thing, or at least say they would.
 
I think the main problem here is that MMO publishers, like NCSoft are afraid to try anything new or untested. When DDO went F2P it was considered a last gasp to keep a game from just being shut down, few people believed it could actually make more money then a sub based system. For most people the idea was that it would make enough to keep just above water, make enough money to cover some overhead and maybe a small dev staff. No one expected it to make more money then it was as a sub based game.
 
Prior to that most other MMO's if they weren't doing well were simply shut down like say Matrix Online. So while I'd love to see some other options then F2P, I don't know how much us talking about them here would change anything.
 
NCSoft strikes me as the type of company that will go with a tried and true method or just shut the game down rather then taking a chance.
 
But as I said, perhaps the CREDD system is enough to keep the game going until everything is sorted out and the player base can start to build again.
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Given the posts from some of the people who "liked" my last post, I think my message might have been misunderstood. 
 
I'm going to make it as clear as possible here: moving to a different business model before we get fixes for all the issues that Drop 3 won't fix will be absolutely disastrous for the game. If this game goes F2P/B2P before Drop 4 addresses the bulk of the issues on the list I posted (plus a bunch more), Wildstar won't be around by January 2016.
 
Going free to play or buy to play any time before all of the fixes that have been promised for Drop 4 are in place will kill the game's future. The AAA games that have gone F2P have all at least put band-aids on the most glaring problems by the time they launch free to play/buy to play, and that will not be the case here (see my previous post for a tip of the iceberg list of issues that won't be fixed by Drop 3). Without those fixes in place, an influx of free players will only bring a ton more people to get turned off by the game; and then Wildstar will truly be in trouble because once the potential market of players out there gets turned off, there won't be anyone left willing to give the game yet another shot.	
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			Vic, on the subject of in game ads: City of Heroes did unobtrusive billboard ads in game for years even before going free to play, but with the option of shutting them off, and most players hardly noticed or objected. In fact, I was always disappointed that as a Canadian, I never got to see any of the ads at all because I thought it sounded really cool.	
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Vic, on the subject of in game ads: City of Heroes did unobtrusive billboard ads in game for years even before going free to play, but with the option of shutting them off, and most players hardly noticed or objected. In fact, I was always disappointed that as a Canadian, I never got to see any of the ads at all because I thought it sounded really cool.
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It's more hated on general principle, but is it actually worse than the F2P model?
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For some game they went with the tested and proven F2P system, for WS they're using the tested and proven system EVE uses with sub + CREDD.
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CREDD is not some kind of magical system that's gonna save Wildstar from possibly going F2P.
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			DONT TELL ME WHAT I CANT DO!! Get it? huh? Lost fans will understand... John Locke, lock this thread already lol...	
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I have no issue with it myself, just saying what I've seen other places. But then again perhaps now more people would be willing to accept them if it means not going F2P.
 
 
Myself I wouldn't have an issue with them, as long as they're not too intrusive.
 
 
I'm not saying it is the only option, but it's one of two proven options. Sub based, or some sort of F2P. Honestly in a way WS is sort of a hybrid F2P already, other then the box cost. It is possible for people to play without spending additional cash, because their access is being paid for by someone else.
 
You already have one group of people covering the cost of other people. You already have wales swimming in the WS sea subsidizing other people. It's a much less intrusive system then a Cash Shop, but in principle it's really the same thing. You have one group of people spending more then $15 a month and a different group spending less... EVE works the same way, without it's PLEX system, I think there's a very real question if the game would still be going. In EVE you again have wales keeping the game a float by buying PLEX and selling it.
 
So regardless of what you call it, WS is not a pure subscription based game.
 
There's all kinds of other things that can be done, and I like a lot of your ideas. The question however is if NCSoft is willing to take the risk on a unproven system or not.
 
For some game they went with the tested and proven F2P system, for WS they're using the tested and proven system EVE uses with sub + CREDD.
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Nothing can save a game from that possibility, as in it will be an option. But it could either prevent it, or at least delay it.
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Free to play literally means that, after buying the box, it is possible to not invest any further into the game.
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I'd support a model where F2P meant you saw adds and paid subscription meant you didn't :)
 
Heck, make em watch vids before they enter a dungeon. Wouldn't bother me because I'd pay the sub.	
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Gotta remember that CREDD is only a $5 increase over the one month subscription rate. It's extra income, but not a significant source.
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This is to address the possibility of Wildstar going free to play— which has not been raised by devs, so this is speculation. For clarity purposes let's assume the timeline for this possible change is from now to six months in the future. Anything beyond that isn't worth discussion. The purpose of this thread is to give the devs an idea of the community's attitude toward the topic, in light of recent announcements. Don't be a jerk! :P
 
The premise is this: Wildstar is a sub game. This fact was much discussed before the game was released, lots of controversy about the "archaic" pay to play concept surfaced on media sites. But the bottom line with most followers of Wildstar and with the devs was simple— the game will not go F2P, ever, and many of us have seen the recent resurface of Frost's correlation of monthly content releases to the sub model.
 
However, it's obvious that the plan changes when it comes to a game as large as Wildstar. Promises will be broken. Tables get flipped. Some folks have begun to directly question the fairness and rationale behind a sub model that no longer produces the advertised pace and structure of content releases (though we can't make assumptions about the amount of content or the quality).
 
This is the current situation. So the question now emerges: How do we feel about the possibility of Wildstar going free to play within the near future? Please consider this in the context laid out and refrain from flames.
 
 
Personally, while I think that people have the right to point out when promises are broken, my stance is firm: I don't care for F2P in an MMO. I would probably stop playing if the sub model changed (especially if it was something like SWTOR's). So in case anyone at Carbine is wondering... I really don't care that the game is no longer living up to its original standard for sub model fees. Drek happens. All I ask is that you create a new standard of service (interaction with community) and a new standard of quality (which you're working on). It seems to me like the CREDD model is working for the player base, and hopefully paying well, so don't feel pressured to change this aspect of the game because of (albeit fair) criticism.
 
/2 cents
 
Anyone else?
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Just on the below quote...
 
CREDD to some extent can work against Carbine in some ways, I have heard of people having years and years worth of CREDD stockpiled, so the cash flow they received from this was all front loaded, they won't get rear ended cash flow... oh I just used rear ended :huh:  :D
 
 
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So the bottom line is just that, the bottom line. How much income comes from CREDD vs Subscription is largely meaningless. What matters is how much money the game makes per month.
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For a number of F2P games you don't even have to buy the box. I didn't buy Rift or Tera for example when I tried them. But it is completely possible for someone to buy WS, and never pay a single dime more. So I'm not sure I see the distinction.
 
I suppose it depends on if you consider anything to be free or not. I know some don't, and will argue that any 'free' item isn't truly free as long as anyone is paying for it. So take a buy one get one free, according to some that second item isn't truly free since you had to pay for the first item.
 
But if I have paid for the box, and never spend another dollar to keep playing, because I buy CREDD. How is this actually different then if I go and play SWTOR and don't pay for a subscription. Either way I'm not expending any of my cash, so for me the game is free.
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 Free to play literally means that, after buying the box, it is possible to not invest any further into the game.
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Just on the below quote...
 
CREDD to some extent can work against Carbine in some ways, I have heard of people having years and years worth of CREDD stockpiled, so the cash flow they received from this was all front loaded, they won't get rear ended cash flow... oh I just used rear ended :huh:  :D
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Just on the below quote...
 
CREDD to some extent can work against Carbine in some ways, I have heard of people having years and years worth of CREDD stockpiled, so the cash flow they received from this was all front loaded, they won't get rear ended cash flow... oh I just used rear ended :huh:  :D
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Incorrect... it doesn't matter how many people bought CREDD in game for how long and for how cheap. In fact it's bette for CARBINE. Because every single one of those have been paid for for $19.99.
 
Many players seem to lose grasp of this.
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Because game design doesn't revolve around you, Solar.  ;).
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I think the issue with using in-game advertising to support an MMO is more about rounding up advertisers who are willing to pay for the access. I don't think it's an unsolvable problem, but there are a lot of practical issues that would have to be worked out, such as the format of the ads. Would they be on in-game billboards? Would a pixel version of the product be available and useful in the game? ("My character drinks Coke because he gets a 30 minute 5% stamina boost from each can he drinks!")  How would modern-day products be fitted into a fantasy game world without it being horribly jarring for the players and ruining immersion, which some MMO players care a lot about?  I don't think any of these issues can't be resolved but as someone else said up above, a game company would have to be willing to take on the burden of charting those unexplored waters and pioneering the model, which is costly and risky.  I would be very intrigued to see an MMO try it, particularly if the advertising aspect was part of the game from launch, but it would take a bold publisher indeed to strike out on that unmapped trail.  I very much agree that NCSoft is not that bold publisher.  NCSoft is already making money hand over fist on B2P and F2P models and it will stick with one of those if it decides to transition Wildstar. 
 
(One possibility would be to sell ad space on the character log-in screen instead of in the game itself. That probably wouldn't be too tricky to implement, but the amount of ad space available for sale would be limited. However, it would have the advantage of the ads being usable in their current format so the advertisers wouldn't have to create a whole new ad - they could just use their normal on-line advertising items in a new space.)
 
On this point:
 
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It's most damning problem is that it is, by nature, free for some people to play, which means there is a rather large chunk of people who aren't covering their end of the rent, utilities, and salaries.  So you have to figure out how to make people with money not only pay their amount, but other people's amounts.
 
Yick.
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I don't see a f2p option happening, f2p just harbors the worst of the worst online, a toxic community.  A f2p option just opens the door to bots, gold sellers, and hacks to repeatedly cause issues during W* lifecycle. 
 
I would expect,
 
Box/digital sales reduced like GW2 does.
 
Free trials to a certain level.
 
Removal of subscription.
 
Continue CREDD sales, CREDD opens up perks sub(hopefully passive like character slots, eg cap raised, gold/rep/prestige bonus, barber shop, boom boxes, etc..), no restrictions from the game we see today for the non CREDD b2p users.
 
Services like race, sex, appearance, & faction change, paid transfers PvP to PvE and vice versa, & CREDD purchase.
 
Cash/CREDD shop for decor, mounts, pets, costumes, etc.. as much as I wouldn't want this portion, we're talking about a "rerelease" mmo ran by NCsoft.
 
We will find out w/this next drop or soon before I believe, I can't imagine NCsoft keeps the same model for such a big rerelease of this product to have walls like $60 buy in plus a sub to bring new players in.	
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I don't see a f2p option happening,[...]
 
I would expect,
 
Free trials to a certain level.
 
Removal of subscription.
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a toxic community
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I dissagree, and all these game companies that keep emailing me, texting me, calling me, taking me out for dinner and buying me stuff says otherwise. ;)
 
 
That all depends on how you define Free. I define free in this case as something I get without having to pay $ for. If I use platinum to buy CREDD I am IMO at least playing for free. As far as NCSoft/Carbine is considered I'm still a paying customer, because they still got paid. Honestly it's a rather elegant system, because the wales get what they want in the form of Plat which lets them buy stuff in game, and the people who have more time then money get to play by converting game time into a subscription. It's a win win.
 
 
Sure I'm not saying WS is a typical F2P game by any means, but it's also not a pure subscription game like WoW or ESO is either, because you have a way for people to keep their account active without paying for it directly. I see what you mean that from Carbines PoV I'm the same if I play with CREDD or Subscribe. So to them everyone is a subscriber but from the players PoV it isn't, because if I use CREDD I'm not spending real money. 
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If my boss buys us dinner, I'm not paying for it, but I'm under no illusion that it's "free".
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There are FAR better options than the F2P systems they have available.  I don't generally consider B2P to be F2P because it's a lot closer to a sub model in its pure form (you pay for the content all equally).  B2P just doesn't tend to cover enough bills on its own.  F2P to me has always meant that a player is not paid in monthly, but can generate monthly expenses for the game.  That means you do have red numbers, and you make up your money through layering content.  Whether you're crippling the free players to try to force them to sub in to feel like they're playing, locking stuff people might want in a cash shop, giving people buffs for subbing, whatever it is, to generate more revenue without a sub, you need to charge some of those players a LOT more.
 
However, it's not like Carbine isn't full-time employing their team.  Stuff made to sit behind cash walls is stuff that would have been available for the price of the sub in a subscription game.  It's not like the time to develop those things went away.  Essentially, F2P is a scam by which you say the game is free, then make things that would have been available to subscription players not free to make up the shortfall.
 
That's why I'm fundamentally against the practice.  There are a LOT better ways to do it, ones that are available now.  None of it matters if they don't fix the game, but where F2P might benefit game companies financially in the long run once they've adjusted the game to take advantage of it, few to none of those adjustments that increase revenue in a F2P game would make Wildstar nominally better.  F2P models, as they currently exist, can be financially rewarding, but it hurts the end product quite a bit.
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Fair enough, we'll have to agreed to disagree then, or else we'll end up with nothing more then a debate over semantics...
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F2P models, as they currently exist, can be financially rewarding, but it hurts the end product quite a bit.
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Again, I found that Star Trek Onilne was a much, much better game under the F2P then it eve was as a subscription game. They added more content and better content then anything they did before going F2P. The Starbase system for fleets for example was brilliant, and other then the cost and time it took. Everyone loved it. The time and cost thing wasn't IMO a valid complate though, because Cryptic was up front that they wanted something that would take even a very large 100+ account fleet a year + to complete. But you still had people upset that their 5 person fleet couldn't compete and reach the same level a 100+ person fleet could.
 
I'll also point out that there was nothing in the cash shop that helped speed up or otherwise improve the Starbase, the closest you get was buying Dilithium with Zen. But earning Dilithium doing fleet events, which also generated fleet credits you needed to build stuff, made buying it a non-factor. Because no matter how much $ you spent, you still had to earn those credits in game.
 
The Romulan stuff was also very well done, both the stuff you did as a Fed or Klingon, or the stuff they did for the new faction... So no, F2P does not always hurt the end product.
 
Again, not saying that WS should go F2P, but the idea that F2P hurts the end product is not by any means a given.
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As far as development of the game goes, though, it's not a semantic argument.
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When you're centering a game around making ancillary money, a lot of Wildstar's ideas become liabilities instead of the assets they currently are.
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			I don't understand why some idiots want F2P, since it COSTS YOU MORE. F2P games usually wall their content and rewards via hideous gold grinds that encourage players to buy gold on their cash shops in order to beat the crappy RNG and hours upon hours of grinding gold ingame.	
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I don't understand why some idiots want F2P, since it COSTS YOU MORE.
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I don't look at it from the PoV of the developers, I look at it from the PoV of my wallet. I'm not paying anything extra to play, so from my PoV the game is free. The fact that NCSoft is still getting paid doesn't change the amount of cash in my bank account.
 
 
Which was my whole point. It does bring up an interesting thought however... I wonder how many people playing would not be here if not for CREDD. Not so much in the "the game isn't worth it to me right now because of problem X, Y, and Z." But lets say Drop 3 is akin the to the second coming, and most of the big issues are fixed after it's out.
 
A that point, I wonder how many people would quit playing if they had to pay a subscription and couldn't buy CREDD. My first thought is not many, because I don't think most people who are willing to drop $60 for the box have an issue with $15/month.
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I've never seen a more toxic community then SWTOR a month or so after release. It made WoW seem somewhat warm and welcoming.
 
When a game has no entry fee it's a field day for corrupt sites, gold sellers, hacks, and players that could give a crap if their account is closed down....no entry fee.  If what you mentioned above true it's due to your lack of experience in this genre.
 
 
All those things can be controlled in a F2P system. Hacks by and large have nothing to do with F2P, but much more to do with poor code.
 
I'm starting to think you're just here posting this nonsense out of entertainment, games w/no entry fee get hit far more by what I mentioned above than a game w/a entry fee.  I think every player can come to that conclusion that have experienced entry fee games (b2p/sub model) give away free limited trials.
 
 
As was said above... how is removal of subscriptions not F2P? Most F2P games still have an subscription option, Neverwinter Online being the only western made MMO that doesn't have one.
 
 A f2p model has no entry fee to play, period, having a sub model option makes no difference.  A b2p option you have to buy the game for entry, once again optional sub or not makes no difference.  A sub model mmo requires...a sub to play, not options.
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I've never seen a more toxic community then SWTOR a month or so after release. It made WoW seem somewhat warm and welcoming.
 
When a game has no entry fee it's a field day for corrupt sites, gold sellers, hacks, and players that could give a crap if their account is closed down....no entry fee.  If what you mentioned above true it's due to your lack of experience in this genre.
 
 
All those things can be controlled in a F2P system. Hacks by and large have nothing to do with F2P, but much more to do with poor code.
 
I'm starting to think you're just here posting this nonsense out of entertainment, games w/no entry fee get hit far more by what I mentioned above than a game w/a entry fee.  I think every player can come to that conclusion that have experienced entry fee games (b2p/sub model) give away free limited trials.
 
 
As was said above... how is removal of subscriptions not F2P? Most F2P games still have an subscription option, Neverwinter Online being the only western made MMO that doesn't have one.
 
 A f2p model has no entry fee to play, period, having a sub model option makes no difference.  A b2p option you have to buy the game for entry, once again optional sub or not makes no difference.  A sub model mmo requires...a sub to play, not options.
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Those of you who accept or even like the idea of WS going F2P, don't kid yourself that it will be some kind of nice cash shop.
 
It will be selling Elder Gems for cash, and buying stuff for Elder Gems. "Gems" is a popular premium currency in a lot of F2P games, for example GW2. NCSoft has already laid the groundwork for it. Long painful grind to get AMPs, APs and gear? Check. Buy Elder Gems to make it faster? That's what we will see, plus tons of new nice items sold for elder gems.
 
If Carbine wants a lower barrier to entry, they should drop the box and stick to only subscription (might have to give people who bought the box 3 months of CREDD or something as compensation).
 
Also for the love of Chua Science, start selling rowsdower plushies and other swag.	
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Dude, first off L2Q.
 
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it's due to your lack of experience in this genre.
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Dude, first off L2Q.
 
 
I've been playing MMO's since 2004 starting with CoH. I've played every major MMO out there. If you weren't part of SWTOR shortly after release then you really don't know what you're talking about. But for a while people were calling it TORChan, because the trolling was as bad as 4chan.
 
 
Actually I'd assume if it ever goes F2P it will always have a sub option like most other games do. But a few years down the road I don't think you'll see a price for the box any longer, or at least a greatly reduced one including expansions. Like WoW, it's $20 and includes what seems to be most of the expansions other then the last couple.
 
No game keeps charging the same price for the game it did at release a year or so latter... There may be a box price but it will be reduced and normally include old expansion packs.
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You have absolutely made a critical error when you've thought that the people possibly attracted into a game will necessarily make it "better".  The resources they take up are not limited to digital resources (those people have support need, billing, and are responsible for a portion of the content development in a sub game they are not then covering).  They are, in essence, dead weight, and are NOT necessarily beholden to make the game fun or congenial.  Or to even play.  A F2P player can log on once a month for an hour and need all the tiny bit of bandwidth (and all the database admin, which... if you think these things are small or cheap, imagine how much all the empty names cost to do the megaserver transfer).  You can rack up a fairly impressive "debt" as a F2P player without adding anything you're talking about.  In fact, if their congenial nature and pleasantness is a benefit and worth their admission, then we might have to consider how many of them there are compared to complete pricks, who can also play for free and be just as horrible.
 
I don't buy that point at all.  Putting people into a game doesn't necessarily equate to value.  You wouldn't need to tell that to anyone who has a PUG member drop because they can't make gold.  Dead weight is more than you'd think, and they're not paying the bills.
 
And in the end, we're talking about F2P for financial benefit.  NCSoft doesn't give two solid shits how nice people are in F2P.  If they make a switch for money, they care about that one thing, making more money.
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It's really, really weird to me that you seem to have this horror of the F2P player base and feel that they will make Wildstar a nastier community.  Outside of a few pockets of decency, WIldstar has had the most toxic, nastiest player base of any MMO I've ever played, going right back to EQ, and all  under a sub model. This is thanks to all that "hardcore" crap that some of the devs have been (stupidly) encouraging with both their own attitude and their game design which actively punishes learners, and rewards exploiters. Add in a dose of frustration and bad temper from repeated wipes, and pugging anything in Wildstar becomes an exercise strictly for masochists. Wildstar PuGs are already legendary for their bad behavior and bad attitudes and general jackassery.  There's just no way a surge of F2P players is going to make that worse. They may or may not improve it, but they aren't going to make it worse.  
 
And the worst thing for any kind of MMO is emptiness.  If you're happy in a  game world bereft of other human beings, you have no need for an MMO at all; you have your console games and your one-person PC games.  I've completely lost count of the number of comments I've seen on different game boards to the effect of "I like Wildstar, but there's no one else playing, so I don't want to either."  If emptiness weren't a severe problem for an MMO, we would not be having the "mega"-servers coming up.  The fractured player base would not be an issue -- if it weren't for that fact that the vast majority of people who play an MMO want other people to also be playing it.
 
Yes, more people, more players in an MMO, equates directly to value.  Empty MMO = Dead MMO. 
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Those of you who accept or even like the idea of WS going F2P, don't kid yourself that it will be some kind of nice cash shop.
 
It will be selling Elder Gems for cash, and buying stuff for Elder Gems. "Gems" is a popular premium currency in a lot of F2P games, for example GW2. NCSoft has already laid the groundwork for it. Long painful grind to get AMPs, APs and gear? Check. Buy Elder Gems to make it faster? That's what we will see, plus tons of new nice items sold for elder gems.
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 A f2p model has no entry fee to play, period, having a sub model option makes no difference.  A b2p option you have to buy the game for entry, once again optional sub or not makes no difference.  A sub model mmo requires...a sub to play, not options.
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I don't think there's many if any who actually want F2P for WS. Just many of us who are of the opinion that F2P is preferable to shutting the game down.
 
However you are dead wrong about costing you more. I played Rift for a month or two and spent not a single dime on it. I did not miss out on a single thing the game had to offer short of cosmetic items like pets and the like. Only a few F2P MMO's actually wall of their content, such as SWTOR or LotRO, and both of them offer subscriptions that let you play the game pretty much exactly like you did before it went F2P.
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I don't want F2P, but unless the game gets a lot better after drop 3 with more people, then I think this game will be F2P by springtime.  It could be a good thing for the game anyways.  We certainly could use a lot more people, its just the type of people and kids that come with f2p really sucks.  Besides I like the credd thing anyways, and have been playing free the last few months.  It all comes down to revenue streams and is WS making enough off of subs and credd to pay the bills AND turn a profit?  If it is then that's awesome.  I have a feeling they are about to be running in the red, or already are. 
 
I wonder if any big MMO's have ever just completely closed their doors and shut down the game within the first year before?  I doubt that would ever happen here, because I have never heard of it happening anywhere else before e	
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WildStar could never convert to a B2P. It's not a viable option because they've already made their money from selling boxes, and if they remove the subscription, they've just cut off their income.
 
B2P with an optional sub that gives "Patron" conveniences and loyalty benefits would be a possibility. But they'd still likely have some kind of cash shop. If they made the cash shop currency earnable in game (by anyone - not just subscribers - like TP in LOTRO), then CREDD could then cash shop currency and there could be an item on the cash shop that cost the exact amount of currency that CREDD gave that could be bought to give 30-days of Patron status.
 
If you have CREDD be the only source of cash shop currency outside the game, then it becomes less of an issue of people just paying money to the cash shop, because people could pay in-game currency for CREDD as they do now. Granted, people would still buy CREDD to get cash shop currency themselves, but it would mean that spending real money isn't necessarily the only, or even the easiest, way to get things off the cash shop.
 
So, B2P keeps the "freeloaders" out. Loyalty benefits and conveniences of Patron Status keep people subscribing. Earning cash shop currency rewards in-game - and CREDD being the only means of buying cash shop currency outside of the game - keep the cash shop accessible without having to spend real money.
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it wouldn't surprise me to see some b2p model too
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/114676-on-f2p-the-possibility-of/page-29&do=findComment&comment=1198065
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I think most of us are operating on the assumption that we're talking about the most likely model Wildstar would use for F2P, which is that you would still need to buy the box, there would be some kind of cash shop, some kind of detriment to non-subscribers for not subscribing, and then no subscription fee.  I don't think Wildstar will ever be free of the box price.
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