146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-9

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Jesus H Christ, the presidential debate is shorter than your LFR campaign. :lol:
 
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So of course, those players who are already well past X-89 and overgeared for the encounter have a lot more options and flexibility in optimization than those who aren't.That means that the people who have the absolute least flexibility in builds and composition are players who are new to the content and working with progression gear. Unless, of course, they're being carried through the content by veteran players who don't really need them there at all, in which case they're pretty much irrelevant to their own experience anyway.
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I'll advocate for an easier raid experience if, and only if, it's new content. At this point I'd be more than okay with a Dungeons > Ultimate/Academy > LFR > GA progression because that is a gear level that already exists: world bosses/crafted/contracts (as Reconditioned mentioned.)
 
I've a feeling that Protogames Allstars (barely datamined info currently though) may be that, since Protogames dungeons have taken the spot of in-between learning dungeons so far.
 
It's just so... Underwhelming and boring to make LFR a carbon copy but easier version of current raids and call it something new. That's the innate problem with WoW's LFR: it makes for a faceroll experience of things raiders already do, and chances are when new raid tiers come out and we have an LFR-style thing in place, we'll be expected to grind them to gear up as swiftly as possible (this was a real problem in WoW.)
 
I've suggested it before and I'll stick by my suggestion: use open world locations (e.g. the Ascendancy area in Whitevale), put them in a queueable instanced zone and either make it a quick run-through raid but also make it a story-telling device, or you can have a pick your own path raid if they can adequately balance it, of which the former is obviously a lot easier with less dev-time. The major reduction in creation time due to already-existing artwork would be huge, and it would still fill in the easier raiding portion that people are asking for.
			
				
	Edited December 18, 2015 by Bloodrose	
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The main advantage of copy-pasting the 'true' raids into easier versions, Bloodrose, is that you cut down on a LOT of developer time. You don't need new layouts, new assets, new voice work, new story or new boss mechanics. You pick the same things and adjust the values down so it's manageable by a PuG or by less people or whatever. Tweaking numbers alone is much, much simpler and less time consuming than doing EVERYTHING from scratch.
 
If raiders want unique content that only they will get to experience and enjoy fully, then I think it should be fairly fair to expect them to pay for it. Champions Online sold 'adventures' that were essentially instanced (but casual) content for a sum, so maybe Carbine could do that*? That also has a marvelous advantage: it allows them to ACCURATELY SEE how many people are willing not only to do that content but to pay for it. Instead of, you know, 'wellfare raiding' as some people call it.
 
*With the disclaimer that Premium users should get access to it as long as they stay Premium.
			
				
	Edited December 18, 2015 by Ildur	
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Merely tweaking the numbers won't give you the GA you are looking for. You'd have to drastically change the existing encounters and likely add new mechanics and remove existing ones. The voice acting and story are negligible, and the art assets are already reused from all over the rest of the game (the only unique thing in GA is Ohmna).
 
If they did what you are asking for, you probably wouldn't like it. And maintaining two version of the same raid is probably more challenging than you think.
 
A 20 man expedition would probably fit the bill much better all around.
 
I don't think raiders have asked for exclusive content. Anyone can raid, and raiders have done a lot on their own toward making it more accessible. But many of us who have experienced it think that it doesn't fit the bill of what you want, but it would lead to burnout of people running multiple versions of the same content and wasted development effort on content that would be exausted very quickly.	
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Bloodrose, Protogames Allstars has been said by TimeTravel that it's not going to be a raid, it was just there in Beta for testing raid stuff or something like that.  
 
LFR IS HORRIBLE!!!!  It does not teach someone how to play this game.  Why I really don't think there should be 2 difficulties for a raid.  An easier raid than GA (haha I know) is more than welcome, but to make it so that it is super easy, gtfo.  Not only would the loot have to be something similar to iLvl 76-80 because has to be easier than GA.  But wait, that's vet dungeon level gear, don't want to make vet dungeons obsolete.  Thats why people been asking for world bosses being turned to instanced, theres your LFR. Gaurentee that people will complain about them being to hard.  If you expect to clear GA with fresh gropu of people of 20 in a group finder, and it be done in a day, than honestly, you don't understand what raiding is.  Yasfan and people that have the same views, your missing the point of what Wildstar raiding is.  Not a simple I go in there and afk for gear by pressing one button.  Like really?  Go into a Malgrave never running it, probably not get gold or even silver.  Go into Levian bay, you will fail.  Even when told what to do, you will fail because people are lazy and don't want to click the pillars that basically kill the mobs for you.  And the mobs hit hard for an adventure.  
 
There are alot of enrages in the game.  GA there is Convergence, guess what, kill 3, only have so long to kill the 4th.  Council, there's a timer to kill or guess what BOOM! X89, you have an enrage with the floor disappearing.  Kuralek, you have an enrage after 8 eggs.  Phagemaw, after 3rd time going in the air, he kills you.  Ohmna, the last phase gets to be to much damage out there with the dot on you, you have to kill fast enough, with a Soft enrage being the pillars.  For DS, SD and the adds and also the pillars are all soft enrages.  Maelstrom, you do run out of platforms eventually.  Gloomclaw, DPS Check.  Lattice, don't heal the walls, you die and eventually run out of floor.  Limbo, thirst meter reaches 100, you die.  Pairs, so many to list, but big one, you kill one pair, you have I think 20 seconds to kill the other one.
 
So complaining about a composition of having a TANK/HEALER/DPS is POINTLESS!  It's a trinity system for this game, where have you been?  Seeing as YASFAN is the major voice in these forums for LFR, and this has been argued into the ground with her, would like another voice heard.  Not a little comment of I want LFR.  Bring a view of LFR and why they are good compared to doing current content.  LFR not raid finder which would be nice to have.  I honestly would love to see a group finder, that you can queue up for "wings" but can only queue up for Wing B or C after you done Wing A for the week and Wing D after you done Wing A and B and C.  And this raid finder system only works on raids that are behind by 2.  Such as GA will be when Redmoon comes out.
 
I can read strats and I memorize the fight by watching videos, I know what to do, means I can 1 shot Hardmentors because you know I read about it.  
 
Interesting concept Ildur, but that would take away from Wildstar and the whole game being unlocked for f2p which sets Wildstar f2p on top of every f2p system.	
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That's the thing. We don't have it on farm. We only just started working on Phageborn Convergence, our raid group rotates people in and out a lot, and heck we still wipe on Kuralak a bunch. But we still regularly go into GA with 17 or 18 folk and clear bosses.
 
You are severely overestimating the tightness of these "dps checks", likely because you have no experience with the raid.
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Bloodrose, Protogames Allstars has been said by TimeTravel that it's not going to be a raid, it was just there in Beta for testing raid stuff or something like that.  
 
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The main advantage of copy-pasting the 'true' raids into easier versions, Bloodrose, is that you cut down on a LOT of developer time. You don't need new layouts, new assets, new voice work, new story or new boss mechanics. You pick the same things and adjust the values down so it's manageable by a PuG or by less people or whatever. Tweaking numbers alone is much, much simpler and less time consuming than doing EVERYTHING from scratch.
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Merely tweaking the numbers won't give you the GA you are looking for. 
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			I'm not ignoring facts. A progress site has nothing to do with how fun the encounters are.	
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			Increasing the timer on the bombs isn't going to help when someone still drops one in the middle of the raid. The timer on those is not hard to beat. And if you'd experienced it, you'd know that.	
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The main advantage of copy-pasting the 'true' raids into easier versions, Bloodrose, is that you cut down on a LOT of developer time. You don't need new layouts, new assets, new voice work, new story or new boss mechanics. You pick the same things and adjust the values down so it's manageable by a PuG or by less people or whatever. Tweaking numbers alone is much, much simpler and less time consuming than doing EVERYTHING from scratch.
 
If raiders want unique content that only they will get to experience and enjoy fully, then I think it should be fairly fair to expect them to pay for it. Champions Online sold 'adventures' that were essentially instanced (but casual) content for a sum, so maybe Carbine could do that*? That also has a marvelous advantage: it allows them to ACCURATELY SEE how many people are willing not only to do that content but to pay for it. Instead of, you know, 'wellfare raiding' as some people call it.
 
*With the disclaimer that Premium users should get access to it as long as they stay Premium.
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I'm not ignoring facts. A progress site has nothing to do with how fun the encounters are.
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Pretty much this, yeah.
 
I find it really funny how half the arguments made in this thread against LFR are how if there's going to be an easier raid, it should be completely new content, while the other half of the arguments against LFR in this thread are how it would take too much developer effort to even retune the existing raids.
 
And most if not all of them appear to be coming from people who wouldn't be doing that easier raid anyway.
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I'm actually going to address this as it's a rather snide remark and throwing everyone under the 'against LFR' banner that may not share your views.
 
I'm not against LFR, I'm against Blizzard's version of LFR - vehemently so. But offering an easier raid version? I'm for it, if it's done right. And yes, I would probably be doing that content for my alts to gear them up, so no, your second assumption is false as well. That's likely true for most raiders who are not running their alts through GA/DS already and on a regular basis. I would like something where I can queue and go at my leisure because that is ideal when I'm off my raiding schedule that offers better gear than dungeons, but isn't a hunt for world bosses (which takes commitment or luck on timing.)
 
I want content that offers something more than 'it's what's already there, but easier!' Something new offers something to the more casual players, as well as us raiders who enjoy multiple characters. That's hitting both demographics and offers more content to just about everyone who likes doing PvE content.
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Increasing the timer on the bombs isn't going to help when someone still drops one in the middle of the raid. The timer on those is not hard to beat. And if you'd experienced it, you'd know that.
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I'm finding it really funny how much everyone is focusing on the number of people in the raid as something that has lots of wiggle room and ignoring the build and gear constraints.
 
Especially since the part of the checks that explicitly drew my criticism was their impact on build and gear diversity and party composition--I didn't even mention the number of people, but the effect on build and playstyle. The number of people you have inside the raid has absolutely no bearing on what you do outside of the raid anyway.
 
But I digress. You were telling me--again--what a casual and inexperienced player you are and how even you can do it--living proof of how wrong I am. Likely because I don't raid.
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A few things. I never said I'm inexperienced, only casual. I'm far from inexperienced, having successfully lead raiding guilds in two different MMOs in the past. I am, however, playing very casually in this game. 
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You keep suggesting that encounters are too difficult for people to complete - for a variety of reasons. This is why I pointed out you need to separate being casual from having capability. The requirements for raid comp are about as loose as they can possibly be (do have tanks, healers, dps? Okay, then you're good; no requirements for specific classes or even specific builds, though obviously they offer advantages/buffs), and GA itself is not a particularly challenging raid - especially the first floor, which is really how it should be. Starts out simple and you work your way up in complexity. X-89 only really has 4 major mechanics, all of which are glaringly obvious and just take practice to figure out (timing on small bomb especially).
 
I truly believe that anyone could kill that boss so long as they pay attention and are willing to practice a few times to get timing down. I don't think it's beyond the capabilities of anyone, no matter how casual. The perception of it being out of reach is another thing, and something I'm trying to combat.
 
I didn't refute your three red points because they're true, but I don't believe they make any difference in my ultimate point and that is: Genetic Archives IS accessible and do-able, but there is a persistent idea that it isn't, which is killing people's will to enter it regardless of whether or not that perception is actually true.	
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			Lets be real here.There is nothing wrong with Raid Finder or a WoW style LFR. What is wrong is the mind set and attitude that goes on inside of it. The system itself doesn't turn people away from and game nor does it bring people to the game. The crap that happens inside however is another story.I don't think wildstar has the pop to even run a stable LFR unless lockouts are changed. This would also affect other end game content. Why do people run dungeons over adventures? Because the reward is far higher. Why would people run LFR over dungeons? Because the reward is higher. if the loot lockout is changed and changed poorly then the affect on other end game causal content would drop.If the game had a bigger pop then this wouldn't be an issue but since Wildstars pop isn't the highest and those who would run LFR on a weekly basis not being very high then adding in those who will do it once/twice which a lot of people tend to do then the LFR would end up being as dead as other content.	
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			Baby steps. Let's wait for the conversion to loot lockout as opposed to raid lockout.	
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My apologies for not being clear. I meant inexperienced at the raids in this game, not playing MMORPGs in general. Bad wording on my part, I was well aware that you have a lot of experience with past MMORPGs. And while I knew that you had some past raiding experience, I somehow got it in my head that you didn't have much of it. No idea how I managed that, as I can see in retrospect that you very frequently comment on different raids even in this thread. Sorry for the assumption on my part.
 
However, in all honesty, this only works against your claim that you are even remotely representative of the typical MMORPG player. Because the typical player of MMORPGs, as you may know, doesn't raid beyond LFR levels of difficulty--they sure as hell aren't putting in six hours a week raiding, from a background not just as a member but as a leader of raiding guilds in multiple MMOs. 
 
 
To remind you, because it is a point that you have explicitly made twice, we're talking about whether or not you have the level of experience, familiarity with the encounter, optimized build, and optimized gear to distinguish your current experience in the raid instances from that of a typical MMORPG player who has none of those things and is entering the raid instance fresh with the same number of chums who are also typical in terms of their experience and commitment. 
 
You unquestionably do have all of those things, and whether we call that part of the "casual" playerbase or not is completely irrelevant to that reality.
 
 
I note with interest that you didn't refute a single one of those points I listed.
 
Honestly, Nau, you don't just have experience as a raider, you have experience as a raid leader across multiple MMORPGs and you're spending two nights a week raiding. You are no more representative of the typical MMORPG player than Jeff is. And I feel pretty comfortable that you know this.
 
Not being optimized for raiding does not make anyone incompetent. It just means they aren't playing to raid. And I feel pretty comfortable that you know that too.
 
Minor edits for clarity.
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Lets be real here.
 
There is nothing wrong with Raid Finder or a WoW style LFR. What is wrong is the mind set and attitude that goes on inside of it. The system itself doesn't turn people away from and game nor does it bring people to the game. The crap that happens inside however is another story.
 
I don't think wildstar has the pop to even run a stable LFR unless lockouts are changed. This would also affect other end game content. Why do people run dungeons over adventures? Because the reward is far higher. Why would people run LFR over dungeons? Because the reward is higher. if the loot lockout is changed and changed poorly then the affect on other end game causal content would drop.
 
If the game had a bigger pop then this wouldn't be an issue but since Wildstars pop isn't the highest and those who would run LFR on a weekly basis not being very high then adding in those who will do it once/twice which a lot of people tend to do then the LFR would end up being as dead as other content.
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This is a point I never thought of.  If LFR gave better loot than dungeons, what would be the point of doing dungeons? (unless it's glory farm, in which case people would just go w/ premades, and the Qs would be dead).
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Solution:
 
1) Make a raid finder
2) Leave GA and DS as is.
3) Create a new raid zone of average difficulty and average loot
 
The pugs can play the new raid zone to experience raiding(no attunment required). Loot will be a hair better than dungeon gear. Nothing special.
 
GA and DS to remain the same difficulty and still require attunment.
 
How bout that?	
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"Better loot" for someone who is headed to the existing versions of GA and DS gear doesn't mean the same thing that it does to someone who isn't. LFR loot should be more focused on gear that isn't optimized for the challenge-focused content because it should not be considered some kind of pipeline into that content--that's not the point of it. Then the gear has less value to that crowd.
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This shows your lack of actual knowledge about something you have been arguing about for months.
 
LFR wasn't made so casuals could raid. LFR was another step into raiding. Adventures > Dungeons > LFR > Actual Raiding. This has always been the case and will still be the case unless and LFR drops only cosmetic items as the gear will always be above the previous tier and below the next tier. 
 
How ever you want to try and debate it the fact remains the same. LFR is a stepping stone and always will be unless gear is removed and replaced with another form of reward.
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"Better loot" for someone who is headed to the existing versions of GA and DS gear doesn't mean the same thing that it does to someone who isn't. LFR loot should be more focused on gear that isn't optimized for the challenge-focused content because it should not be considered some kind of pipeline into that content--that's not the point of it. Then the gear has less value to that crowd.
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Instanced world bosses that a raid finder can do would solve all 3 of your points.  People are missing that and wanting some huge raid like GA/DS but if you throw all the world bosses in an instance, put some trash mobs, guess what, you now have a raid.  Know what, have a teleport on each side of the room like they do in DS.  All they would have to work on really is creating the instanced zones, the artwork is there already.  So, you have the right points, actually what I am assuming what alot want, but this way it gives the casuals that want a casual raid their fix.  
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			I would also enjoy a casual raid I could do on alts and in between raids, if it wasn't an easier version of the raid I've been doing for months.	
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It does, actually. It tells you how many people think the content is likely to be enough fun to even bother with it in the first place, and it tells you how many people think the content is fun enough to continue on after they've started the climb.
 
By both measures, the progress site is telling us that your opinion of fun is grossly unrepresentative of the playerbase here. But then, the metrics on raiding in WoW could have told us the exact same thing without ever even going to Wildstar-Progress.com.
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"Better loot" for someone who is headed to the existing versions of GA and DS gear doesn't mean the same thing that it does to someone who isn't. LFR loot should be more focused on gear that isn't optimized for the challenge-focused content because it should not be considered some kind of pipeline into that content--that's not the point of it. Then the gear has less value to that crowd.
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			Condescending words won't get you anywhere, Xiun. They are meaningless if you don't enlighten us with your interpretation of how LFR works, why people go into it and what keeps them in it.	
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I think the concern of an easier raid between dungeons and GA pulling participation from dungeons is legitimate. It's already pretty easy to skip gearing up in dungeons, what with crafted and contract gear. An easy raid that offers gear slightly better than dungeon gear would drain off a great deal of participation. Sure there'd be those of us that still do dungeons for fun - and occasionally groups running them once for attunement - but I'm not naive enough to think that everyone plays the video game like that, even if it's a nice ideal.
 
Cosmetic rewards would be cool, but I'm not sure if that's enough to pull people into a raid environment, no matter how easy? Perhaps, though!	
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You keep suggesting that encounters are too difficult for people to complete - for a variety of reasons. This is why I pointed out you need to separate being casual from having capability. The requirements for raid comp are about as loose as they can possibly be (do have tanks, healers, dps? Okay, then you're good; no requirements for specific classes or even specific builds, though obviously they offer advantages/buffs), and GA itself is not a particularly challenging raid - especially the first floor, which is really how it should be. Starts out simple and you work your way up in complexity. X-89 only really has 4 major mechanics, all of which are glaringly obvious and just take practice to figure out (timing on small bomb especially).
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Condescending words won't get you anywhere, Xiun. They are meaningless if you don't enlighten us with your interpretation of how LFR works, why people go into it and what keeps them in it.
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Thats a good thing. now name another? 
People bring up numbers of guilds who raided. Now post the number of people who will raid LFR. Is the number higher? 
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OK. Going by WoW's numbers, 70% of the playerbase enters a raid tier at the LFR level and 50% completes it at that level. There's the numbers.
                                                                                                                                 
Here's the good thing that the numbers buy you.
 
Imagine TT being able to go back to the folks at NCSoft and telling them that 2% of the playerbase is ready for some version of the new raid tier, so he needs the resources set aside to finish it up and get it out to you guys. Imagine their response.
 
Now imagine him doing the same thing, only telling them that it's 50% of the playerbase that's ready. Imagine their response.
 
That's what the real purpose of LFR is, Ufa. It justifies the unjustifiable expense.
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I like how knowledge of an encounter is the main cornerstone of this argument but we completely ignore the fact of the psychological aspect of it as well.  Perception is everything in this day and age.  I leave the rest for you forum philosophers to figure or construe my meaning. 
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LFR wont change shit. It wont bring new players to the game nor will it keep existing players entertained while the new tier is in development. The game needs a new aspect to end game not something that is splitting the player base again.
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OK then. You have fun waiting for the results of TT going to NCSoft and telling them that 2% of the playerbase is ready for the next raid tier.
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Yeah, all the hype about how this game would never go F2P and would usher in the revival of raiding in MMORPGs really worked out for this game, you betcha. It turns out that facts matter after all.
 
And since you ended with Nietzsche, I really must respond in kind.  ;)
 
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Actually, there has been more raiders in GA.  They just aren't posting on wildstar progress because killing ohmna isn't as big as before.  There are pugs for GA.  That shows that it's being run by people.  
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Yeah, all the hype about how this game would never go F2P and would usher in the revival of raiding in MMORPGs really worked out for this game, you betcha. It turns out that facts matter after all.
 
And since you ended with Nietzsche, I really must respond in kind.  ;)
 
-pic snip
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The odds the next raid has 2 levels of difficulty is pretty high. 
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I really hope it won't have. Having to do a useless easymode would kill the game for me.
 
As for the LFR thing, because WoW is always brought up by some brilliant people: Anyone noticed that WoW's decline in subscriber numbers began at the same time when they introduced LFR? :D
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			We'll see. There are more ways to *cupcake* up the implementation and de facto force people into those modes (WoW being the prime example) than to do it right.	
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Id imagine that they wouldn't force you to do the easy mode
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I really hope it won't have. Having to do a useless easymode would kill the game for me.
 
As for the LFR thing, because WoW is always brought up by some brilliant people: Anyone noticed that WoW's decline in subscriber numbers began at the same time when they introduced LFR? :D
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If it's a stepping stone in gear progression between dungeons and the "normal" mode of the raid, then it will become expected to complete and obtain gear from before you are considered "ready" for the actual raid.
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			Who knows how accurate that progression site is. Large numbers of players I know have pug cleared GA without being in a guild, and multiple guilds I know who have cleared Ohmna aren't even listed.	
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			Come on now, Ildur. Questioning the accuracy of a site that's being used by some as evidence of how many people are completing raids is not the same as just personal impressions. It's not personal impressions that the site is missing a lot of groups that have cleared Ohmna, and it's not just personal impressions that it doesn't count people who haven't cleared it as a guild. So...	
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Allow me to point out we can use that same logic to ask something even worse:
 
Who knows how accurate the personal impressions of a few raiders are?	
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Allow me to point out we can use that same logic to ask something even worse:
 
Who knows how accurate the personal impressions of a few raiders are?
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Read the OP and agree with the points raise.  WildStar isn't a easy game and from scanning the majority of the pages, the dedicated WildStar players would like to keep things that way.  I share the same doubts expressed by others as to how profitable WildStar can be if it remains as is.
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			Read the OP and agree with the points raise.  WildStar isn't a easy game and from scanning the majority of the pages, the dedicated WildStar players would like to keep things that way.  I share the same doubts expressed by others as to how profitable WildStar can be if it remains as is.	
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I think the concern of an easier raid between dungeons and GA pulling participation from dungeons is legitimate. It's already pretty easy to skip gearing up in dungeons, what with crafted and contract gear. An easy raid that offers gear slightly better than dungeon gear would drain off a great deal of participation. Sure there'd be those of us that still do dungeons for fun - and occasionally groups running them once for attunement - but I'm not naive enough to think that everyone plays the video game like that, even if it's a nice ideal.
 
Cosmetic rewards would be cool, but I'm not sure if that's enough to pull people into a raid environment, no matter how easy? Perhaps, though!
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The same could be said in reverse for non-raiders.  Funnily enough, some have misinformed opinions about 3rd party sites used to keep track of certain progress or maybe it was a guide or what have you.  I think it comes as no surprise that most of the 3rd party sites we used to use are either in disrepair, not updated, and just plain gone.  
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With enough time and patience there is no encounter in this game that can't be done easily, as it is all scripted and choreographed. Raiding is a glorified term for listening and following directions + a little execution. Robots could play the game better than all of us. 
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Maybe the real issue is that most people don't like to be forced into being more like a robot than like a person.
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The game itself is not hard if you learn to play it the way it is designed to be played, and not how you want to play it. Monopoly has rules too and if you play by them you'll have a much easier time than going at it willy nilly.
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To your first point, playing a game the way it's designed is not evidence of difficultly or lack there of.  Since if you extend that logic, there is no hard game as long as you play the way the developer intended which means Dark Souls isn't difficult nor is Ninja Gaiden or any game for that matter.
 
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Allow me to point out we can use that same logic to ask something even worse:
 
Who knows how accurate the personal impressions of a few raiders are?
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You just reiterated my point with a different phrasing. Gratz.  B)
 
You're severely underestimating the learning curve on Monopoly. Wildstar is easier than Monopoly in regards to PVE because Monopoly is PVP.
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			Yasfan, what you are missing is that WS Progress depends on people reporting their progress with evidence. I don't care what it shows, so I don't report. That's why my guild doesn't show up. I checked a few other guilds that I'm friends with and they don't show up either. So how accurate can this be if most of the people I play with regularly aren't even there at all?	
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I refuted your point, not rephrased.  Your point was there is no hard game if you follow the developer's design.  My reply says there are hard games since games can be designed to be hard.
 
You forget that you can solo play Monopoly.
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{| class="blockquote"
Good game design tries to make the computer more like a player.
Bad game design tries to make the player more like a computer.
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{| class="blockquote"
Learning encounters require time and patience. Casual implies not having much of either to dedicate to a game. With enough time and patience there is no encounter in this game that can't be done easily, as it is all scripted and choreographed. Raiding is a glorified term for listening and following directions + a little execution. Robots could play the game better than all of us. Casual players just simply don't have the resources to invest in the game as much as person that has more free time, and therefor, on the whole, prefer easier content to digest. Little nuggets of fun that can be homogenized and swallowed without much thought and little to no risk of failure is what the casual gaming market is centered around. I tell my friends they should play the Demon/Dark Souls games and they say, "No, I don't like hard games." I ask them why and they always come back with something along the lines of just not having the time or patience to deal with them. They are turned off by failing and learning from their mistakes (this could be directed at society as a whole but lets not go there).
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As I stated, casual players don't have the time or dedication to learn mechanics as much as people who dedicate more time to the game.. Such is what the definition of the word casual means, as illustrated below. I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term casual when the literal definition is used. If you feel as though you possess patience, willpower, ability, reliability or determination to complete raid content but lack the time needed to gain experience and success, then you are still, casual. It doesn't matter what your reasoning is, by one definition or another you simply don't have as much resources to dedicate to the game (casually playing), and thats fine. We are all busy, thats why the mobile game market is destroying most other gaming markets, because of its casual nature and high ROI. 
 
adjective
1.
happening by chance; fortuitous:a casual meeting.
2.
without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing:a casual remark.
3.
seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic;unconcerned:a casual, nonchalant air.
4.
without emotional intimacy or commitment:casual sex.
5.
appropriate for wear or use on informal occasions; not dressy:casual clothes; casual wear.
6.
irregular; occasional:a casual visitor.
7.
accidental:a casual mishap.	
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I'm completely fine with tools being added to make the content more accessible without dumbing it down. I've stated this many times. Most of the other raiders I know feel the same way. Break the content up into chunks. Add a raid finder. Change the lockout to be on a per boss basis. These are fine ideas.
 
The gear requirements for raids today are easy, as is attunement. These are not a barrier to accessibility.
 
There is some elitism, but for the most part that's not what I see. Most raiders I know are interested in helping others achieve what they have by giving advice and tools to do so.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You start out good as to what a casual is, but by the end of it  you fall into the trap of assuming that the few friends you have that don't want to play hard games is what all of us casuals want.  I don't care if content is hard, but because of time constraints it would be nice to get it done quicker, or to have the ability to get to a point to stop and pick it back up later when I have more time.  That doesn't mean I want it/need it to be easier.  
 
Yes, you gave good definitions of casual, but you also say we need it to be easier, and that's the part most of us will take exception to.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Learning encounters require time and patience. Casual implies not having much of either to dedicate to a game. With enough time and patience there is no encounter in this game that can't be done easily, as it is all scripted and choreographed. Raiding is a glorified term for listening and following directions + a little execution. Robots could play the game better than all of us. Casual players just simply don't have the resources to invest in the game as much as person that has more free time, and therefor, on the whole, prefer easier content to digest. Little nuggets of fun that can be homogenized and swallowed without much thought and little to no risk of failure is what the casual gaming market is centered around. I tell my friends they should play the Demon/Dark Souls games and they say, "No, I don't like hard games." I ask them why and they always come back with something along the lines of just not having the time or patience to deal with them. They are turned off by failing and learning from their mistakes (this could be directed at society as a whole but lets not go there).
 
My point is plainly this, the casual audience prefers smaller and easier games, games that can be played for 15 minutes at a time. Wildstar takes significantly more time investment than they are willing to spend. Therefor, Wildstar does not appeal to the casual marketplace.
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{| class="blockquote"
Whenever I've suggested the content be kept the same, but tools added to make t more accessible, I've been told that's not good enough. Nothing short of making a second, easier version of the current raid instances is acceptable.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You start out good as to what a casual is, but by the end of it you fall into the trap of assuming that the few friends you have that don't want to play hard games is what all of us casuals want. I don't care if content is hard, but because of time constraints it would be nice to get it done quicker, or to have the ability to get to a point to stop and pick it back up later when I have more time. That doesn't mean I want it/need it to be easier. 
 
Yes, you gave good definitions of casual, but you also say we need it to be easier, and that's the part most of us will take exception to.
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{| class="blockquote"
 The solution? Make raids more accessible. This doesn't mean dumbed down, it just means getting people into them, through them and out the other side more easily. This means removing pointless attunement, streamlining gear requirements, providing better tools for building and managing groups, providing the ability to split raid content into smaller chunks (for those that want this). To stress again, none of this means dumbing down, it just means improving accessibility.
 
But the impression I get from reading this thread is that the elitist crowd rather like raid content being inaccessible and gated because it helps them feel like special snowflakes. Seems they can't stand the thought that filthy casuals might be just as good as them at executing the content if raids were made a bit more accessible ;)
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{| class="blockquote"
What I said, is that the game, as with any game, becomes easier the more time and experience you have with said game. The casual audience just doesn't have the same amount of time to dedicate to the game. Im not saying casual gamers can't do it, Im saying if you need 10 hours of experience on an encounter to master it, and you only spend 1 hour a night playing, then its going to take you much longer than someone who plays for 5 hours a night. Don't try to twist my words, or read into anything. Im saying what I have said from the beginning, time + experience = difficulty decrease.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
As I stated, casual players don't have the time or dedication to learn mechanics as much as people who dedicate more time to the game.. Such is what the definition of the word casual means, as illustrated below. I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term casual when the literal definition is used. If you feel as though you possess patience, willpower, ability, reliability or determination to complete raid content but lack the time needed to gain experience and success, then you are still, casual. It doesn't matter what your reasoning is, by one definition or another you simply don't have as much resources to dedicate to the game (casually playing), and thats fine. We are all busy, thats why the mobile game market is destroying most other gaming markets, because of its casual nature and high ROI. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Whenever I've suggested the content be kept the same, but tools added to make t more accessible, I've been told that's not good enough. Nothing short of making a second, easier version of the current raid instances is acceptable.
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{| class="blockquote"
I didn't twist anything, I went by exactly what you said in what I quoted:
 
 
That's the part I was addressing about you falling into the trap of saying we casuals need it to be easier because you know a few people that say that. 
 
Hey, if I need 10 hrs to master something, and it will take me more than a couple of sittings as opposed to someone that can do it in a couple of sittings, so what?  As long as I can do it, that's all I care about.  Doesn't need to be made easier.  
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{| class="blockquote"
This thread is becoming increasingly obvious as a waste of time. Since I value my time, I will be letting you casual players just argue until you're blue in the face. 
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Then maybe you should go back, reread what you wrote, and edit it to reflect what you actually meant.  Because saying things like:
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
Casual players just simply don't have the resources to invest in the game as much as person that has more free time, and therefor, on the whole, prefer easier content to digest. 
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Ugh, I really don't have the time or energy left to argue with you so I will just change my narrative. You are bad at this game because you are casual and it is too hard for you. Come talk to me when you can actually clear some content. There, enjoy your bait. Stop quoting me because getting notifications from your incessant pandering is making my pixels light up in a way that I don't like. Just git gud. Elistist, out.
 
Better idea, Ill just ignore beetle bailey, the lazy, loafing, unskilled private.
 
			
				
	Edited December 20, 2015 by Shoryuken	
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{| class="blockquote"
Ugh, I really don't have the time or energy left to argue with you so I will just change my narrative. You are bad at this game because you are casual and it is too hard for you. Come talk to me when you can actually clear some content. There, enjoy your bait. Stop quoting me because getting notifications from your incessant pandering is making my pixels light up in a way that I don't like. Just git gud. Elistist, out.
 
Better idea, Ill just ignore beetle bailey, the lazy, loafing, unskilled private.
 
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{| class="blockquote"
 
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As a "casual" gamer I have been pretty much more than capable of holding my own in whatever game I have played. It doesn't matter whether I sank 6 hrs a night into the game or 1/2 hour a night into the game. I have been able to learn and improve at those games during my play time. Besides that, there are many "casual" gamers who play far more hours per day/week than any hardcore raider.
 
The misconception that "casual" players want easier content is way too out of hand. All we want is to be able to progress our characters just like anyone else. Raiding doesn't have to be the "be all end all" at endgame. Everyone refers to LFR and refers to the WOW example of dumbed down raids. I don't see why that has to be the case, leave the raids at their current difficulty, who cares if PUGs would never be able to complete it. Atleast the option would be there to do it. Heck, it might even spurr some of those casuals to look for a more dedicated progression raid guild like yours to join!
 
Multiple difficulties of raids should not matter to hardcore raiders. Since they all want to do the hardest content period, they will still be able to do so. Those who aren't at that skill level would have an option to complete the content at a lower difficulty mode, so what? It takes nothing away from the hardcore "we want hard raids" raiders, so I really don't see why this would be a problem. "But but, it would take resources away from developing new content!" As a player this is not my problem, it is Carbines problem to find the resources and funding to create new content and deal with the issues Wildstar has (real or imagined). If they don't find ways to give the players what they want and to generate revenue than the game deserves whatever fate it gets.
 
If new expeditions, adventures and dungeons came out with higher ilevel gear than the raids would that really be a terrible thing? Especially if they were of the difficulty of the Vet dungeons which everyone was saying were so difficult when the game launched? That type of content fits with the time contrained "casual" play of non-raiders. It would seem silly to just release a new raid every year/couple of months with new ilevels of gear but never give the non-raid content a boost.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm finding it really funny how much everyone is focusing on the number of people in the raid as something that has lots of wiggle room and ignoring the build and gear constraints.
 
Especially since the part of the checks that explicitly drew my criticism was their impact on build and gear diversity and party composition--I didn't even mention the number of people, but the effect on build and playstyle. The number of people you have inside the raid has absolutely no bearing on what you do outside of the raid anyway.
 
But I digress. You were telling me--again--what a casual and inexperienced player you are and how even you can do it--living proof of how wrong I am. Likely because I don't raid.
 
I have an alternative explanation. I think you're simply downplaying the commitment and effort you're putting into it to try to claim I've got something wrong when I don't.
This alternative explanation is an evidence-based one.
It's based on comments that you have made elsewhere on these forums, some of which are in this same thread:
your raiding schedule is two nights a week. three hours per night, just like lots of raiding guilds even though you don't belong to a raiding guild.
you downed X-89 more than two months ago and have long since mastered that encounter despite the fact that you're not farming the entire raid.
you've optimized your build and gear both based on guides written explicitly by prominent raiding guilds expressly for that purpose. 
In other words, whatever you were last year, now you're a pretty typical raider that's using a circle instead of a guild. You've let that activity drive your choice of build and gear, you dedicate several hours a week to it, and the content that you're noting you don't need a full raid group to complete is content that you downed months ago and have since done several times.
 
Since you're "only" dedicating 6 hours per week to raiding, you're not moving through the content very quickly.
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Regardless of what people think or feel, casual gameplay with casual content sells.
 
Hardcore gameplay with hardcore content does not sell NEARLY as good as casual content does.	
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Ok, i've cooled down a little bit.
 
I am very, very, very tired of this thread.
 
There is a truth about our life:
 
With no effort there is no reward!  Duh!
 
We play games BECAUSE THEY ARE REWARDING TO US EMOTIONALLY - i.e. they stimulate some dopamine feedback loop in our neurochemistry that makes us feel good.
 
Personally, what is rewarding to me, is improving myself.  I absolute despise being anything else than excellent at anything, in all honesty.  I don't think i could play a game and be average - i would never, ever be happy that way.
 
That said - yes - i agree casual content is selling.  but hey, there are MOUNTAINS of casual games out there.
 
Ever look in the apple store?  I'll pull up my iphone right now...  Top Grossing:
 
Clash of clans - haven't played it but it seems addictive, casual content whereby you war slowly and slowly through non-complex intistance.  I expect it to be easy
Game of war - Had a guildmate who worked on this, it looks incredibly simple (reminds me of some other games), but honestly I think the reason it is #2 is Kate Upton
Madden Mobile - considering i played this for a while back on my PS3 - i don't think madden is easy at all.  People love football.
Candy Crush - talk about mind numbing and easy.
Slots - IT'S NOT EVEN GAMBLING, people are just rolling slots for NO MONEY AT ALL... wth.
Candy Crush v2 - seriously!?!?!?
Marvel Champions - i heard this was really cool, fun and engaging, but you could easily drop 100-200$ in micro transactions to unlock things
Boom Beach - i mean?  it looks like you control little guys to storm a beach.
 
BTW #3 was spotify and #6 was pandora - which i both really like.
 
In all honesty, there are no really #hardcore games in the top 100 grossing games.  They are all this casual, easy, i play fifteen minutes.  I do a thing.  the thing was slightly better than that other thing i did that one time.  Oh, look, for the low price of 4.99$ i can do two more things soon!  looookie me I did three things, spent five bucks, but since they are easy i will log off and forget about it in a few minutes.
 
Let's make this point:
 
CASUAL GAMES MAKE MONEY.  They find a simple, fast, easy way to trigger our reward system and actually, find easy ways to sucker us out of hundreds of dollars without us noticing.  I don't even like them... like, i've played some casual games on my iphone or ipad and ultimately at the end of it i spent 10-15$ and mostly regretted wasting my time on such easy, bland, BS.
 
secondly:  WILDSTAR WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE CASUAL - this has been covered ad nauseum in this thread.
 
Thirdly:  Many of wildstar players, at least those on the forums play wildstar because it is NOT casual.
 
I am very open on this - if Wildstar went casual, i would just quit.  Casual gaming is simply NOT rewarding enough to be worth my time.
 
 
Is this a sucessful business model?  no, it's probably not.  Yeah, i would want to have more casuals in game because ultimately CASUAL SUBSIDIZE RAIDERS.  Like, yasfan is NOT wrong here.  I have a friend who is a raider, but he didn't spend money on raiding, he spent 200$ on housing.
 
The builder on my housing plot is spending 50-60$ a month on wildstar for housing!  Why?  they need plat and decor to build their plots.
 
Me?  I can make a raid schedule, farm content easily, craft things, and hell, I make plat quite easily.  For someone who is doing housing, 20$ for 20p makes sense.  For me, 20$ for 100p is too little because my in-game income is substantial.
 
Why are the housing people not raiders?  because well, some of them ultimately don't want to.  Most of the time i ask it IS what yasfan says, they don't have a time/schedule to raid.  For instance, my builder has two kids and lives in hawaii and she simply doesn't have the time commitemnt to make a single one-nigh GA at a reasonable hour for the rest of us.  I have offered, but i don't think she'll take me up on it.
 
These people are spending their money to keep the game free for us raiders.  Ultimately, we might think the events are stupid, silly, boring, and unejoyable.  But wildstar does NOT make money from datascape.  It DOES make money from little housing people in their ilv65 gear killing little christmas bots getting snowy boulders.
 
Make no mistake my friends, people in housing spend tons of money on their projects.  I suspect that actually, 20% of my guildmates pay a subscription (maybe less).  Housing people pay 3-4 times that, easily.
 
So having these events well designed, well, carbine does it because that's the cash cow.  You know why there is no redmoon raid?  like, there are about 1000 people who have cleared datascape enough to actually play it.  They would only release it to generate hype, which in turn would get people in the game, so they can spend money on decor, mounts, cosmetics, etc...
 
But ultimately the kind of "rewarding content" with "low amount of skill and time commitment" is not possible because it isthe time and effort put into content that makes completing it rewarding.  I have long said i actually like adventures, but they are not rewarding.  They are not rewarding because they are too damn easy.  Yeah maybe people think Crimelords is fun the first few times, but how many of us have done that more than 20 times?  I could easily run 20 dungeons in a week!  Why?  BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD.
 
That said, players like me to not make games money.  I am trying to get the most out of a game while spending the least amount of cash possible.
 
 
I used to play neverwinter - i think it was the same way, they probably made most of their money on cosmentics, then they squeezed it to P2W.  Ultimately it costs about 300$ for one BIS item.  I think this is stupid and insane, but there are some whales who pay it.  Why?  They have tons of money IRL but no time to farm, so just buy your shit and play.  If you want to do that then go for it, but i don't think i'd ever want to do it.
 
The one thing i want inthis game is pink claws - not because they are BIS - but because NO ONE gets a pink weapon without actually earning it.  I want to earn my merit.  
 
But why should carbine care about players like me, financially?  I spend like 60$ to start the game and then i play for hours and hours and hours (costing them money, no doubt), but not spending more.  I bet a housing nut, who plays far less than i do, spends in one month what i spent in a year.
 
Point is - how do things stay afloat?  keep doing these events (which i honestly find boring), keep making new mounts, fabkits, decor items, roleplaying settings, etc...  Maybe i won't enjoy those things too much (ok, i love my plots, i just don't build them), but will the redmoon raid save carbine?  No!  why?
 
honestly, no one cares.  My FRIENDS care, but i have a very myopic slice of the wildstar community.  90% of my friends are raiders and they are all probably putting 10+ hours a week in game, easily.  I bet they are all likely spending next to nothing in terms of dollars.
 
The point of raid content is NOT for people to do the raid content.  It's to get people interested in the game so they spend money on damn snowglobes to ride around in.  That's the reality of the situation.
 
As far as content?  I think a dumbed-down LFR version of GA is bad because GA is already easy.  Maybe not easy to clear everything for a new group, but 4/6?  c'mon man, if you are not 4/6 you aren't trying!
 
But hell, the people who aren't trying to be good are the ones opening their wallets.
 
I don't understand that at all.  If i had an extra 60$ to spend a month, i'm not spending it on wildstar.  Bring some duck confit and a bottle of a rhone red blend.  If i had an extra 500-1000$?  Hell i have a friend in California and a girl in St.Louis i need to see.
 
What yasfan has right is that us #hardcore population is NOT profitable, never has been, and never will be.
 
I am very very grateful to have such a wonderful amazing game to raid in - but my gratitude does not come in dollars.
 
That said, adding LFR to wildstar is NOT going to necessarily improve the population.  It's a month after F2P, right?  Half the pug GA crowd are the same 200 players we have been raiding with together for the last year?  We just all have alts that are decked out now.  Are there some F2P players in there?  sure.  Hell, there are some F2P players in my guild, but they are certainly in the minority of raiders.
 
I'm telling you man, osun houses in the sky with DJ caretakers are keeping the lights on in datascape.  Say thank you to those people in WSRP.  They pay your bills.
 
(P.S. - I think housing is INCREDIBLY challenging content.  Did you see the piano Flower built me?  Killing avatus is way easier than that)	
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{| class="blockquote"
Yasfan, what you are missing is that WS Progress depends on people reporting their progress with evidence. I don't care what it shows, so I don't report. That's why my guild doesn't show up. I checked a few other guilds that I'm friends with and they don't show up either. So how accurate can this be if most of the people I play with regularly aren't even there at all?
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{| class="blockquote"
ok, conclusion
 
1)  The game you want is NOT wildstar.  Whatever you want is some ez, braindead, boring, game you can play for 2 hours a week, do everything like a master, and get great rewards for almost no effort.  Please try: http://www.hellokittyonline.com/
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I go away for a bit and look what happens....
 
No one is asking for less difficult content, no one asking to be handed everything on a platter.
 
I'll say it again, the game just flat out needs more to do that isn't "Kill, Kill, Kill". Right now you have the following tiers:
 
Leveling
Dungeons/Adventures/Expeditions
Raiding
Housing
 
There is NOTHING else to do once you get to 50. So, if you can't (for whatever reason) do Raiding, you're left with 2 (since you've already leveled) things basically. There are issues with Adventures and Expeditions as they get tiring and haven't had anything new in 6 months now. New players don't have this issue yet, but they'll run into it sooner or later. I did leave out Daily Zones as they're just the same thing repeated forever and with no super huge reward at the end other than something you can get via Elder Gems or other means easily (or just use the promissory notes) and be done with it.
 
Just because someone doesn't raid, doesn't mean they wouldn't be a hardcore crafter, or housing builder or something else. So, in light of that, there are ways to make things more interesting for EVERYONE. They have yet to come, we don't know if they will. It's been 18 months with ONE HOBBY. Seriously, that's a shame and should be fixed ASAP as people do love to do that stuff. Too many people keep thinking about adding the new roller coaster, but no one is thinking of the other stuff. Games that are super popular have one thing in common, they have tons of things for players to do outside of leveling or dungeon/raid grinds. Wildstar does not have that yet and like the OP said, because of that? They left. That's bad.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
1)  The game you want is NOT wildstar.  Whatever you want is some ez, braindead, boring, game you can play for 2 hours a week, do everything like a master, and get great rewards for almost no effort.  Please try: http://www.hellokittyonline.com/
 
2)  To be good at ANYTHING with no effort/time put in is impossible.  It's really, likewise, quite impossible to enjoy anything without that effort and time.  Ultimately, it DOES NOT MATTER IF IT'S A GAME OR NOT.
 
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{| class="blockquote"
If i had an extra 60$ to spend a month, i'm not spending it on wildstar.  Bring some duck confit and a bottle of a rhone red blend.  If i had an extra 500-1000$?  Hell i have a friend in California and a girl in St.Louis i need to see.
What yasfan has right is that us #hardcore population is NOT profitable, never has been, and never will be.
I am very very grateful to have such a wonderful amazing game to raid in - but my gratitude does not come in dollars.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Definition of insanity........."Hey, our stuff hasn't worked 2x in a row now, people just won't stay and play our game"
 
Solution: "We have 1 more shot at keep this game alive through the Steam release, let's keep everything that failed the first 2x the same and see if it works!"
 
3-strikes you're out.......
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{| class="blockquote"
No one is asking for less difficult content, no one asking to be handed everything on a platter.
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Regarding definitions of "hardcore", I can conceded at this point that I probably put enough time and effort into the game to own that title. But that is not because I'm a raider, it's because I'm a raid leader, and that takes a lot of extra effort. I wrote a friggen website to help manage my team.
 
But my guild has a wide variety of different players in it, and that does cause us to progress much slower than the "hardcore" guilds. Certainly there is a wide gulf between players in my guild who log on two nights a week for raids and don't do much else, and the time commitment people in guilds like Enigma put in. I would definitely put in the folks who play for 6-9 hours a week in the "casual" category. I know casuals who put more time than that in. Defining "hardcore" so wide that it includes my guild is to make it a pretty useless term.
 
The truth is, if progression was most important to me, with the time and effort I put in, I'm sure as an individual I could be in an Avatus guild workin for a pink. But my goals are more aligned around playing with people I enjoy, so rather than dedicate my time and energy to pure progression, I put it toward helping the more casual community around me be successful. I'd hazard a guess this is probably true of most guild leaders/raid leaders of casual guilds. But for us, winning the game isn't downing Avatus. It's knowing that the people in our guilds are having a great time.	
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The reactions of people who are obsessed with progression raiding to the idea of LFR being included are so telling.
 
LFR is far more popular than progression raiding.  It is, really, and you can tell by the way the 5 or so Wildstar Forum Lurkers are reacting to it, constantly trying to argue against its inclusion and spewing a bunch of passive aggressive insults about how "People that want LFR are 'lazy', 'stupid', etc...  'Casuals' need to stop ruining the game...  Wildstar not meant for 'casuals'....  Go play a different game (spend your money elsewhere? - I'm sure Carbine just loves to see their players tell other players to GTFO and give money to their competition so those guys can make cool new content - Good Job, Raiders!)."
 
Realistically, none of these guys would be worried about it if LFR wasn't a hugely popular pass-time at end game for the majority of MMO players in every game it is in.  They wouldn't be worried about it if they actually understood that the majority of people who want LFR now will never actually become regular Raiders.  They might dabble, but they're not going to do it regularly because in the game, they tend to be treated like absolute shit by the current Raiding groups.
 
Of course, you're never going to see a huge upswing in the demand for LFR, but the reaction to it is based on the fact that once it is included huge numbers of people actually do it no matter how much of a dirty word it is on the forums.  Some people even stop doing the actual progression raids, and really, outside of the 1%-ers, who really gives a shit?  Certainly not the non-raiders.
 
I've started raiding in this game now that my classes are done and my 2 year old twins are actually sleeping regularly.  I have the time now and it's there.  And, sure, the raids in this game are alright.  It's not some sacred spiritual pinnacle of the MMO experience that a lot of these yahoo's I see on these forums trying to pretend it is.  They're 20-man dungeons, FFS, and they suffer from the same issues as every raid in every game I've ever played. 
 
It doesn't matter how well designed the raids are, spending your evening waiting on 19 other people to get their crap together and be ready to go at the same time really really really (REALLY) sucks the fun out of the whole thing.  It's a game, not a job, I'm not getting paid to do it.  <-- That's actually the real reason for why LFR is more popular than progression raids in MMOs - Queue up, do something productive while waiting, get in when queue pops, go kill shit.  Minimal amounts of "Take 15 people, the tank has to go eat dinner" and "hey guys, I've got to AFK, my Mom is making me do my chores... 20 minute break."
 
IT SURE AS HELL DOESN'T WARRANT CALLING PEOPLE "LAZY" OR "STUPID" BECAUSE THEY DON'T OBSESS OVER THIS ASPECT OF A FICTIONAL ONLINE CARTOON UNIVERSE THE SAME WAY THAT YOU DO.  <-- Holy crap, and you guys wonder why progression raiding is always the least popular activity.  How many people do you honestly want to think will want to play a game with people who have this kind of shitty attitude???  And no, this shitty behavior is not limited to the forums, I see people do this Nerd-Raging bullshit in the game all the damn time and I'm constantly hearing about it from my friends that don't raid normally but decided they didn't like it because they tried it and people acted like a bunch of spoiled-ass jackoffs towards them because their dps was low or whatever.
 
But, hey, if something like LFR keeps people interested in the game by providing just one more answer to the ever burning question "What do I want to do tonight?", by creating a greater sense of variety at the end game for the masses, IF IT KEEPS MY FRIENDS INTERESTED, then I say "Bring it on."
			
				
	Edited December 20, 2015 by Srfrogg23	
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I have not called, or even implied, that non raiders are lazy or stupid. Most of the raiders I know would not say such things. Yes, some have said it in this thread, but that doesn't mean it represents the whole.
 
As for raids being the same as dungeons in your eyes, it may be a matter of taste, or it may be the effect of power creep that they have lost some of the shine of what they once were. I'd be interested to get a larger sample size of the opinions of those who are just getting into GA to see how they feel about it.
 
I've noted more and more that people new to GA are expecting to clear it in short order, when it used to take months of work to beat ohmna. As it becomes more accessible, and it is, I wonder if people are having less fun doing it?	
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(Sarcasm incoming) time + effort =/= greater reward. I have a baby sister who from the time she was 3 yrs old all the way through college studied dance. I'm talking 4 days a week of dance lessons and then onto college for more.....dance lessons.....graduated with a fine degree and what did all that time and effort get her? A job at the GAP and some student loan debt.
 
I can grab a bat, climb into the batting cage and practice and practice and practice for hours on end, it doesn't mean I will end up being a professional baseball player. Some people just have higher skill levels or better physical/mental attributes than others. This is why I don't understand the resistance to creating content with variable difficulties. I mean...I grew up in the 70s and 80s, many of the games I grew up with all had atleast 3 difficulty levels and there are many games that come out now that are created with multiple difficulty levels. For some reason the MMO community seems to really frown up this notion, but anyway.....
 
I think Jeff makes some really good suggestions. I think most people in this thread could agree with those, the only issue I would have is that they are very raid-centric, i'd be more inclined to leave the existing raids alone and just come up with more dungeons, expeditions, adventures and other small group content which get progressively more difficult and provide gear/rewards that can improve a players gear iLevel (how they handle that again is not really my concern, that is a job for the developers). Oh and new raids for the raiders is a good idea too. We can all co-exist and we can all have rewarding and meaningful progression.	
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Yes, they are. I've been told multiple times that only an easier version of the current raids will suffice. These are the following suggestions I've made, which I think would benefit that game, that yasfan and friends have rejected:
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