111681-torn-i-like-draken-storyline-but-dominion-is-still-like-waaaaay-evil-page-2

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			Yeah, I was referring to the events leading up to it, and the state we have now. :P I know people hated him immediately afterwards. xD	
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a real war? no
 
a fictional war in a video game? it is whatever the writers say it is.  They could have made good vs evil black and white in this game.  But they didnt...they instead chose to write the Exiles with flaws of their own, and Dominions with non-evil characteristics.  What makes *me* shake my head is how an Exile player reacts when you tell them about some of the things their faction/NPCs do.  Find yourself a fresh player that after a few minutes of playing an Exile would rather play them then Dom because they think that Exiles are the good guys.  Now tell that player about some of the questionable things that their faction does in quests and whatnot.  That player isnt going to switch to Dom, or quit the game. They are going to try and justify the actions somehow so that they can keep on playing.  Or they'll come up with some other lame excuse or just ignore it all together. And that's actually ok...personally i think that people shouldnt let stuff like that stop them from choosing a faction they like. If you need to find a reason to play exile but cant because of some of the bad stuff they've done then make something up.
 
That's why i'm glad i dont use reasons like religion, good vs evil or anything like that to choose factions.  That way i dont have to go "uhhh uhhh uhhh uhhh" when somebody tells me that my chosen evil faction has a sub-group of good guys like Toric and the Radiants.  So my reason actually end up being something like the Chua are fat, cute and awesome or the armor sets look really cool on Female Cassians. And yes i did choose Dominion only because of the Chua /dance /sleep emote.
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Well, see, when you say it like that, you distort and skew facts to serve your purpose. I was speaking objectively.
 
Cassians are by no means creating an equitable and just empire - they ARE the top, in their minds. The Eldan said so!
 
Mechari aren't diplomats. They just make sure the Dominion exists and does what it should. Whether that requires diplomacy or wiping out a race, they'll do it.
 
I can't argue with what you said about the Chua. Though, the Mechari taught them most of what they know. Also conveniently leaving out their sociopathic tendencies, murders, "experiments" and so on.
 
I also can't argue with what you said about Draken, but you're leaving out the fact that their entire life and culture is based on war. Which is not a good thing.
 
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The Exiles didn't try to solve civil unrest with war, they were attacked by the highborn during a rally, and fought back. What's wrong with defending yourself? As Ayita Sinnatus says, "No one should have to be afraid of their government." You know when the South tried to secede? Yeah, it wasn't because of slavery, it was because the North was becoming more and more neo-Communist, and the South wanted nothing to do with it. When they tried to secede, we had a full-blown war. People enjoy telling people what to do, and they don't like it when you take that away.
 
The Mordesh != Victor Lazarus. His arrogance brought their problem, not their whole race's. And Victor IMMEDIATELY started working on a cure, and now dedicates his life to finding one. I think he's atoned for his problems. Not to mention that nearly all of Grismara was rooting for him. Oh, and you know why he started work on it? It's because he lost his wife, and didn't want to lose his daughter, or for other people to lose their families. Is that such a bad thing?
 
The Aurin didn't know they were rebels, and if you honestly think Aurin are vicious, you need a reality check. ^^ Calling them rodents, I can tell where your bias is. :3 If you saw some rag-tag band of people short on food, not doing too well, and all that, would you immediately label them terrorists? As long as they're not violent or obviously bad people, I'd help them. That's just what the Aurin did.
 
The Granok weren't mercenaries. They became mercenaries in order to save their planet from your "diplomats" the Mechari, along with a Dominion battalion. If they hadn't, the Granok wouldn't exist anymore. The Granok also have far more dignity than you could imagine, if you would read their lore without your bias attached. ^^ They saw that The Way of the Stone wasn't going to help their race advance anymore, so they chose to leave their way of life behind, and wander the galaxy in search of a purpose and a home.
 
So, let's look at what is actually written, okay? Throw your bias out the window, and look at it objectively. The Dominion, as a whole, just aren't good people. Sure there are a few bad / good people on each side, but overall, the Dominion strikes me as more "evil", while the Exiles are more neutral / good.
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Nope the Arborian genocide was completely unjustified. The Dominion had no right to make such a wild threat given the circumstances. EDIT: I also would like to add that saying that "They" as in the entire Aurin Race "knew" what they were doing is a typical Dominion simplification.  The Dominion asked one question, got one answer and got an excuse to eat the entire race becuase that was what was convenient.
 
See this convenient Aesops fable of the Wolf and the Lamb.
 
The Dominion is made for killing stuff. Their purpose is Dominance and crushing any and all opposition, real or imaginary.
 
No one thinks that the Dominion is evil because of their political system. They are evil because of their actions. Even toward their citizens they are ruthless, merciless, and kill without a thought as a general rule and as a culture. The Exiles are races that were peaceful inhabitants of the galaxy before the Dominion taught them how to be terrorists.	
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Nope the Arborian genocide was completely unjustified. The Dominion had no right to make such a wild threat given the circumstances. 
 
No one thinks that the Dominion is evil because of their political system. They are evil because of their actions. Even toward their citizens they are ruthless, merciless, and kill without a thought as a general rule and as a culture. The Exiles are races that were peaceful inhabitants of the galaxy before the Dominion taught them how to be terrorists.
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			I have to say that, as a PVP player, Exiles are evil and racist toward their own faction.I've seen like, 3 Granok in all my time PvPing.Not willing to let more Rock People in the War Effort because their appearance doesn't look great on cameras? Their sturdy build makes you look less weak and oppressed?Manipulative racists.	
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One example Roc? The Dominion has the best quality of life in the galaxy (for ALL citizens) They do have laws and some of those do come with a life imprisonment / death penality (treason happens to be one, as does harboring / aiding traitors).
 
Unsurprisingly, similar laws exist IRL in most nations.
 
There was no Genocide on Arboria. The Chua Planet reapers are large forrest harvesting machines, not war machines. The Dominion seized the planet and extracted its resources to stop its use as a terrorist haven. The Planet reapers might have killed a whole lot of trees, but not any more Aurin than the Warrirors who attacked the machines. There are still large populations of aurin living on Arboria that did not escape; and while I'm sure plenty were captured and are prisoners/ slaves ..... We do literally the same thing here. 
 
In the Southern U.S., most of the infrastructure / public works projects are actually carried out by what is effectively slave labor (incarcerated prisoners). 
 
Was it justified? According to Dominion law, yes, according to Aurin mores, nope. Then again we tend not to bat an eye when we sieze the land and propery of criminals in our own country; or when we invade other countries for harbouring terrorists.
 
Obviously the game lore also serves as a bit of social commentary. But it is a very 2 way street. 
 
If taking Arboria's resources is unjustified and makes the entire Dominion instantly 'Evil' then the unjustified Massacring of thousands of innocent civilians in a coup attempt makes the entire Exile faction 'Evil'.
 
Like I told Sci, we can play that game ad infinitum.
 
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What's interesting is that the Dominion don't even pretend that the Aurin were aggressive. On the arkship the simulations of Aurin are peaceful until the player starts destroying the planet. The game doesn't defend the invasion as much as people here do. There was no genocide on Arboria? Right after you finish destroying their home in the simulations you kill the Aurin. That is the story from the Dominion point of view. Not the Aurin. There's no reason to believe that the Chua spared any Aurin peaceful or not. Given their behavior any Aurin who wre captured were not enslaved but killed in Chua experimentation labs.
 
One example of the dominion killing their own without a thought is Chua. The Zax Abides explains not only Chua aggression toward his fellow citizens but Draken aggression toward dominion citizens is permitted.
 
Axis Pheydra looks for any sign of treason. Meaning that free speech is not permitted in the Dominion. The Robots won't understand that saying you want to commune with a tree is anything less than an Exile ideal that warrants torture and untimely death without a trial.
 
People say "well that's just the Arkship." But that doesn't change the fact that it happened and is an example of the dominion killing their own, if you want more examples that's fine but you only asked for one and I've given plenty.	
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What's interesting is that the Dominion don't even pretend that the Aurin were aggressive. On the arkship the simulations of Aurin are peaceful until the player starts destroying the planet. The game doesn't defend the invasion as much as people here do. There was no genocide on Arboria? Right after you finish destroying their home in the simulations you kill the Aurin. That is the story from the Dominion point of view. Not the Aurin.
 
One example of the dominion killing their own without a thought is Chua. The Zax Abides explains not only Chua aggression toward his fellow citizens but Draken aggression toward dominion citizens is permitted.
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Picture is worth 1000 words. :lol: 
 
No Genocide on Arboria huh? It's not sensationalism if it's official lore that Aurin savages make an awesome boot leather.	
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Picture is worth 1000 words. :lol:
 
No Genocide on Arboria huh? It's not sensationalism if it's official lore that Aurin savages make an awesome boot leather.
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There's really no defending Arboria's Ravaging and there's no equal to that action on the Exile side. The Exiles have neither the reach, nor the ability to commit the crimes that the Dominion perpetrates with the stroke of a pen.
 
The Wilderrun lore has declared the existence of an Exile on Nexus as a crime worthy of capital punishment. So There are no real courts or trials of Exiles who have attempted to settle there even for civilian reasons like ... Not starving to death on space. Every Exile is an enemy combatant.	
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There's really no defending Arboria's Ravaging and there's no equal to that action on the Exile side. The Exiles have neither the reach, nor the ability to commit the crimes that the Dominion perpetrates with the stroke of a pen.
 
The Wilderrun lore has declared the existence of an Exile on Nexus as a crime worthy of capital punishment. So There are no real courts or trials of Exiles who have attempted to settle there even for civilian reasons like ... Not starving to death on space. Every Exile is an enemy combatant.
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Nexus brings the Dominion to the Exiles and gives the Exiles the strength and standing to fight back. So the Exiles now can give them a taste of their own medicine. Before that wasn't the case. That's a pretty thin grey line, if you ask me. Dominion pissed off a couple planets worth of people who are now on one planet and mad as hornets.
 
Hycrest was a go... Dominion have themselves to blame.	
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There's really no defending Arboria's Ravaging and there's no equal to that action on the Exile side. The Exiles have neither the reach, nor the ability to commit the crimes that the Dominion perpetrates with the stroke of a pen.
 
The Wilderrun lore has declared the existence of an Exile on Nexus as a crime worthy of capital punishment. So There are no real courts or trials of Exiles who have attempted to settle there even for civilian reasons like ... Not starving to death on space. Every Exile is an enemy combatant.
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I really like the draken storyline/lore, but I still can't quite get past that "firing on an emergency transport carrying civilians" thing from the northern wastes when I think about the dominion(exile human. Also, and I the only one who thinks deadey's rampage was pretty light for the level of trauma there?). And the cassian's holier than thou attitude.
 
are there more areas like deradune where it's mostly draken style, or am I eventually stuck with killing the relatively innocent for no reason?
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What if I told you Dominion are basically along the same vein as Alliance - a league of races under the power of a group of wealthy, religious fanatics.
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I believe I just did. The Ravaging of arboria is a direct corrolary to the United States deforresting the Colonies after taking the land from the Native Americans... Go ahead, Call 'Murica Evil... I dare ya :)
 
Also, Official lore absolutely supports the very many Aurin still on Arboria. Only the Aurin that could be taken on the handful of Exile ships were taken off Arboria; the majority were left on the planet. There is no official lore on their fates; though there is officially no military campaign in Arboria; just the planet reapers which are essentially large chua combine harvesters and their guards.
 
The Direct corollary on the Exile side is the Mordesh Zombie apocalypse, which canonically eliminated over 80% of all Mordesh and continues to plague the galaxy with the ravenous . I'm not saying it was very nice of the Dominion to take the Terrorists trees; but I AM saying if you wan't to compare heinous atrocities, start with the group that unleashed the ravenous and the contagion on the galaxy first (to the tune of actually virtually annhilating a species; rather than just taking their resources en masse).
 
 
 
As for freebots; the Dominion freed an entire mine's worth of them from Protostar; then negotiated real contracts with them to continue working the mines while *gasp* getting treated and paid fairly for their efforts.
 
The examples presented above (e.g. the mechari frebot lover) are rogue individuals (such as the thorns of arboria are rogue from the Exiles) Bad yes, but not under the direction of the Dominion.
 
When Dominion citizens do terrible things; they are punished in kind. When Pyrious Octavian tricks the player into poisoning a village of Pell, Toric Antevian (literally the only decent guy in the game) orders you to find and stop him.You do. The Dominion doesn't tolerate unjustified violence.
 
This topic has been beat to death and has been done long ago (2 months ago) in another thread. The Dominion are no more or less evil than the exiles. 
 
P.S. Dhar; if you look closely, you will find Highborn working the fields, and low born in the governors offices around nexus. If you look closer you might also find a low born is one of the most powerful men in the Dominion
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Yes.
 
Here's the problem. The Exiles are not a single faction. They are a loose confederation of free individuals. They employ mostly mercenary fighters; FCON is their largest military branch and literally stands for 'Free Companies of Nexus' (a Free Company was a mercenary unit not tied to a government or any sort of higher authority.) Each Exile citizen is free to do whatever they want, and government structures are local. The incident you're describing was perperated by the Black Hoods, and Avra Darkos does not answer to anyone but herself. She is under the Exile banner because the 'Exiles' amount to 'anyone who will work together and isn't Dominion.' It's very easy for the player or other parts of the faction to distance themselves from groups like the Black Hoods because local Exile governments are autonomous and usually have nothing to do with those groups in the slightest.
 
By the way, the basis for that plague came from Dominion bio-weapons that the Black Hoods confiscated from Dominion troops preparing to deploy them against the Exiles in Galeras.
 
The Dominion, on the other hand, are all one single government. They are all part of the same command structure. One cannot distance oneself from the mass graves of executed Exile prisoners in Whitevale, for example, because there are no local governments, everyone is a cog in the same machine and thus has to shoulder at least some of the blame for the Dominion's worse atrocities.
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Not really. Cultures of hospitality prohibit doing or bringing harm to a guest. Aurin didn't reject the Dominion. They just refused to turn over a guest. The Dominion likely were in a position to receive hospitality as well.
 
Aurin set themselves up as Neutral parties. They didn't attack the Dominion like the Granok did.	
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I noticed something, the species that have the nicest contacts who (mostly) give you the less evil/morally-grayed quests have to be the Aurin and (astonishingly, excluding Kezrek) the Draken (and Brinny's breasts, but that's besides the point):
-Cassians need to be slapped for being pompous and ungrateful jerks (the lowborn are usually nice, if a bit dumb)
-Mechari, dawn't ged me stawted!
-Granok are prone to cause unecessary conflicts (looking at you, Durek, for the Falkrin incident)
-Mordesh have Davros, poisons and other morbid and painful experiments
-Chua, well, they destroyed worlds that weren't theirs, try to use the Strain like the Mordesh, and always expect you to die during the mission
-Humans tend to be deadly accident-prone (Darnit, Belle!)
 
No, really, I think the Draken and the Aurin are the sane ones around here.	
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Do the first real zone (not Arkship + Crimson/Levian), and you will see a more broad picture of the Dominion.
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Not really. Cultures of hospitality prohibit doing or bringing harm to a guest. Aurin didn't reject the Dominion. They just refused to turn over a guest. The Dominion likely were in a position to receive hospitality as well.
 
Aurin set themselves up as Neutral parties. They didn't attack the Dominion like the Granok did.
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 the Arkship really does a lot to paint that picture. Torture, killing citizens, burning down forests even if they are holos, just for the sake of it...
 
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You are like really trying and I appreciate that. But you try harder than the game does. Saying that the Aurin are not peaceful by any means? Seriously? That they weren't neutral even though the body count from Aurin activities of the war was exactly 0 before they got invaded? 
 
Not even the Granok can claim that.
 
It's really hard to read your posts on this subject because the make no sense. You're so wrapped up in your own head canon that you're talking about people being militant about being nice.
 
Seriously, try to come back from over the deep end.	
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You are like really trying and I appreciate that. But you try harder than the game does. Saying that the Aurin are not peaceful by any means? Seriously? That they weren't neutral even though the body count from Aurin activities of the war was exactly 0 before they got invaded?
 
Not even the Granok can claim that.
 
It's really hard to read your posts on this subject because the make no sense. You're so wrapped up in your own head canon that you're talking about people being militant about being nice.
 
Seriously, try to come back from over the deep end.
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Neutral means not acting against or for both sides Nazryn. What they did was perfectly neutral. They didn't give the Exiles away. They didn't stop the Dominion from chasing them either.
 
Eating veggies and hunting animals does not an evil society make. Wearing dead civilians as boots certainly does.	
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Neutral means not acting against or for both sides Nazryn. What they did was perfectly neutral. They didn't give the Exiles away. They didn't stop the Dominion from chasing them either.
 
Eating veggies and hunting animals does not an evil society make. Wearing dead civilians as boots certainly does.
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The whole planet was civilian.
 
Just because the Dominion says they're not civilians doesn't mean they aren't. Remember, the Dominion declared war, not over a hostile act, but a neutral one. They were entirely the aggressors here. The Aurin never fired a shot in their direction but acted like the Lopp: neutral. They weren't going to hurt the Dominion. They weren't going to help.them
 
You keep trying with the veggies thing but please stop.	
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The Arkship has you move unwilling citizens with a zapper through the scanners that detect brainwashing, not torture them.
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You mean the one who would rather be dead then turned over to the ICI? Yeah huge act of mercy there...
 
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She's part of a brick joke.
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The whole planet was civilian.
 
Just because the Dominion says they're not civilians doesn't mean they aren't. Remember, the Dominion declared war, not over a hostile act, but a neutral one. They were entirely the aggressors here. The Aurin never fired a shot in their direction but acted like the Lopp: neutral. They weren't going to hurt the Dominion. They weren't going to help.them
 
You keep trying with the veggies thing but please stop.
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The only horrible things that the Exiles have done were in reaction to the Dominions evil. The evil that Exiles perpetrated is confined to Nexus where they finally get a chance fir payback. And even then it's a fraction of what the Dominion truly deserve for their crimes in the Galaxy
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That's 75% of the Exile races who have instigated conflict with the Dominion in some form.
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And while Roc and I may disagree on it; the Aurin had a chance to turn over the Exiles and ally with the Dominion. Arwick supported this, the Queen did not. The results are history.
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They were still entirely peaceful that history doesn't change. Consciencious objection is a human right. And a sentient one which may be why the Dominion wants to claim that Aurin are not sentient. They had a right to say no because they were a Sovereign state. The Dominion had no right to take their planet because they were not hostile. These are facts.
 
The Granok's peaceful refusal was met by a threat which answered by forceful refusal. In the end they were not as peaceful as the Aurin, but they too had a right to their way of the stone.
 
The Mordesh disease was an accident. They reach out to the Dominion first, but found no hope there. The Exiles were they're only hope. The Mordesh had received a death sentence from allies that abandoned them.
 
The humans alive today cannot be held responsible for what happened 300 years ago. If the Dominion wants to prosecute the Great-Great-Great-Great grandchild of Brightland for terrorism, then they have serious issues.	
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Ro, Naz has slammed every argument you've thrown at him into the ground with actual game lore... you at this point are running around in circles doctoring said lore to meet your views
 
Just give it up. Both sides have their fair share of bad and good moments. Instead of reaching to try to justify them just accept it and move on. This thread has gone from informative to almost worry worthy delusion.	
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Oh, yes, because I'm just gonna hand over every extraterrestrial species I make first contact with to the next one who says the last one were wanted terrorists. And logic won't save me on that one because I wouldn't know the full story from each side. Logic would instead tell me that no matter my choice, I'll be screwed by one side eventually. Even if I choose the "I don't wanna get involved in any side, both of you, get off my planet, please" solution, it's still gonna bite me in the bottom soon enough.
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Ro, Naz has slammed every argument you've thrown at him into the ground with actual game lore... you at this point are running around in circles doctoring said lore to meet your views
 
Just give it up. Both sides have their fair share of bad and good moments. Instead of reaching to try to justify them just accept it and move on. This thread has gone from informative to almost worry worthy delusion.
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			We don't know what the catapults were for. The fact is they weren't used against the Dominion until they were invaded.	
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Nazryn hasn't slammed anything. We may disagree but we maintain our positions with facts and respect.
Your post on the other hand contributed nothing and is borderline personal attack. :)
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Lore has no authority in deciding what is and what is not moral or ethical, though. And I think that's kind of what's being discussed here: the ethic and moral implications of certain lore facts. Those require interpretation.
 
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We don't know what the catapults were for. The fact is they weren't used against the Dominion until they were invaded.
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			This thread is odd, all I got from skimming it was that the Eldan are actually Lopp, and the Lopp are concealing this fact from the exiles and the dominion in order to let them kill each other while taking all their shinies. 	
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We don't know what the catapults were for. The fact is they weren't used against the Dominion until they were invaded.
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Lore has no authority in deciding what is and what is not moral or ethical, though. And I think that's kind of what's being discussed here: the ethic and moral implications of certain lore facts. Those require interpretation.
 
 
I doubt those catapults could be used for flinging projectiles into and across outer space. Though knowing Wildstar's goofyness I could be wrong.
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Lore has no authority in deciding what is and what is not moral or ethical, though. And I think that's kind of what's being discussed here: the ethic and moral implications of certain lore facts. Those require interpretation.
 
 
I doubt those catapults could be used for flinging projectiles into and across outer space. Though knowing Wildstar's goofyness I could be wrong.
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			The Exiles are rebellious scum! Someone call Putin!	
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The Exiles are rebellious scum! Someone call Putin!
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That's what Dominion apparently thought.
 
I kid though.
 
The Dominion themselves do not potray the Aurin as overtly hostile. Which is why I don't get why people here try. The Dominion understand that they bulldozed a peaceful race. Heck, they're proud of it! I mean, look at my boots!
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			Ok, obviously you're not going to listen to what I say, but I want to disprove one thing. Arwick is INCREDIBLY xenophobic. He didn't want the Exiles there period, because they were different. So he "knew" they would cause trouble. The Aurin had no idea who the Exiles were - they were just a people they welcomed in.	
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Wait...you're an Aurin wearing Aurin skin boots?
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			Well, I have to say this thread was an interesting display of two different ways of looking at the lore. For my own part, I lean toward the moral relativism of Naz's argument, simply because it makes for a more interesting story than the black and white of Roc's. I like complications and moral grey areas. I like my roleplay to reflect those complexities. To bring it back though to the OP's statement, the ethics of the Drakken and the factions themselves depend largely on the story you want to tell with them. What that ends up being is largely up to you.	
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Listen. Both sides do some horrible things.. I remember questing through Hycrest as Dominion and I was really bothered how the Mordesh infected innocent civilians with the plague.
On the other hand when I was playing Exiles, I was really sad when they killed the Elder root tree and burned a good portion of the forest. 
 
Carbine did an amazing job of making both sides seem good and bad. Both sides want to end/win the war.. there isn't going to be necessarily an evil side or righteously good side. 
 
Oh and.. Draken ladies are cool!!! I have one myself  :wub:	
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Well, I have to say this thread was an interesting display of two different ways of looking at the lore. For my own part, I lean toward the moral relativism of Naz's argument, simply because it makes for a more interesting story than the black and white of Roc's. I like complications and moral grey areas. I like my roleplay to reflect those complexities. To bring it back though to the OP's statement, the ethics of the Drakken and the factions themselves depend largely on the story you want to tell with them. What that ends up being is largely up to you.
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No, what you do (Dom) to the Exile assassin leader in Hycrest is torture. and what you do (Exile) with Avra is torture.
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What you do down the road or with other factions doesn't change the first impression you get. Not sure how many more times I need to point out that I'm talking about the first impressions I got of the Dominion faction.
 
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I actually started as a Mechari for my first character.
 
I tried to look at both sides with an open mind.
 
As I played further, I found more things I wasn't okay with, on both sides. 
 
But the Dominion's methods are too overstated for my tastes. I simply can't find it in me to justify the ravaging of Arboria, whether the Aurin decided not to ally with the Dominion or no.
 
The Mordesh strike me as spiteful. Eye for an eye and all that, which, as a pretty spiteful person myself, can empathize with. "The Dominion use poison? We'll use poison, and we're better at it anyway."
 
Also, Mondo Zax seems to relish in the results of his experiments; in this case, death by electrocution, incineration and fate worse than death via mutation, followed closely by a mercy kill by you.
 
To me, that speaks volumes more than what the intended result of his experiment was. 
 
And to top it all off, 90% of Chua that you do work for seem disappointed when you survive. Rude.
 
Though, I do love the Mechari. All of them. The ICI is my favorite Dominion branch. Lex and Axis Pheydra are 'Evil is Cool' personified without overstating it. 	
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Also, Mondo Zax seems to relish in the results of his experiments; in this case, death by electrocution, incineration and fate worse than death via mutation, followed closely by a mercy kill by you.
 
 
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