105205-inadequacies-of-carbines-pipeline-method

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Let me preface by saying I really, really like this game and I think Carbine is an amazing studio. I just have one major gripe.
 
 
Someone help me because I fail to understand how Carbine can have people on their PTR bug testing, claim the bug is fixed, yet still ship out the same "fixed" bugs to the live server. To top that off they take weeks to fix said bugs. 
 
I'm pointing to some particular examples here because they pertain to me. To my knowledge the following are all fixed on the current PTR build.
 
-360 degree (fixed after going to live)/wall piercing (not fixed) wild barrage
-New trigger fingers doesn't update the UI correctly (utility abilities show as off cooldown long before they actually are)
-Ignite t8 was insanely bugged, fixed after going live (mostly), kudos there, but a surged ignite still incurs a 1 second GCD on QD
 
 
Important bugs (ie class breaking or ability specific) bugs should NEVER make it to live, they impact almost every single player in some way. They should take a lot more priority over some item or quest being bugged (in most cases.) 
 
 
WoW doesn't do this, they don't use "pipelining" as an excuse (which is all it is, from my point of view.) They do NOT ship an insanely bugged PTR patch to the live servers. They update the PTR server independently of the live server, then publish the most updated PTR build to the live server. Blizzard's system is seemingly vastly superior. There is no point in having people PTR test for you to find and fix bugs if you push out broken patches to the live server, where they should NEVER be experienced by non-volunteers.
 
 
Why can't carbine do the same? 
 
 
 
Sorry if this post seems inflammatory, I am just really failing to understand this. Also posted on the PTR general (has since been deleted), hoping to get more input here.	
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Not again.......
 
 
had topics, stop beating dead horse	
Stop comparing WoW, game releases as much crap live as others	It works for them, why everyone have need to be "perfect programmer"? 	
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Not again.......
 
 
had topics, stop beating dead horse	
Stop comparing WoW, game releases as much crap live as others	It works for them, why everyone have need to be "perfect programmer"? 
 
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Why can't carbine do the same? 
 
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"Why can't a small newcomer dev do things the same way as one of the biggest, most well funded devs in existence?"
Gee, I don't know, why can't they!?
 
I don't think it's acceptable to push things live the way it has been done recently, but this is ridiculous.
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OP has a point in that there are "bugs" that are progression breaking at low levels that are constantly breaking with each new content patch.
 
*cough "Helping Hands" cough*	
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It's a simple question, should have a simple answer. Why push out a buggy PTR build when you have a fixed one working on the PTR?
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The point was it always has been and always will be nothing short of dumb to compare WoW resources to Wildstar resources.
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Did I compare resources? 
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You indirectly do when you say
 
 
They obviously don't have enough bugfixers on the job.
As I said, I don't think that's an excuse, but I do think you can't just say "well BLIZZARD can do it!".
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They had already fixed the bugs. They just decided to ship the same broken build to live.
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Okay, but that's not what you said. "If you can't fix them in time for live" implies "they weren't fixed".
Different issue.
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Tenner,
 
It's amazes me that certain bugs just show up again with each content patch.
 
I fully understand the MMORPGS are very complex entities but, it boggles the mind as to why the same bugs jus pop up again with each patch?
 
I think that is the major point of the OP.	
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My problem is with the fact they fix the bugs yet push out broken patches to live, where they should never see the light of day. 
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quite easy actually.
 
developer is working with a version of something that is older than the live version
 
lets say its got an older dll library or something and they havent updated before working on whatever portion of the game they were given. when their work is uploaded, and meshed in, the older versions are as well. because the "broken" aspect of the upload "hadnt been touched" and therefore "shouldnt be broken again" it is not tested.
 
it happens very simply. its called human error.	
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			Kestriel, while human error is acceptable, it still boggles the mind that the same bugs happen with each major content patch "helping hands" ( and now a similar quest on the Dom side). *shrug*	
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			Crossing my fingers, hoping for a dev post.	
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This similar topic discussed here: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/104276-why-do-we-have-unintended-new-bugs-and-issues-after-every-patch/ (sorry, posting from tablet can't format html) and it got a detailed official response.
 
I agree with you on what you say, but, after their response I now know better why such errors happen more frequently in Wildstar compared to other mmorpgs.
 
Take a look at that threat, hopefully it'll answer your questions too.
 
~Teq	
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That's a good post, thank you Teq. It doesn't answer my #1 question though, as far as I can see. Which is plainly:
 
 
 
Why push out an older PTR build with bugs that have been fixed on a newer PTR build to live?	
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After looking around at the actual work the teams do, the way patches are organized, etc all seems too complicated for me to grasp given my very limited training so I just want to say this.
 
 
 
You've succeeded in fixing the major bugs on the PTR, yet they come out on the live build still. Carbine, in the future, please keep the ability-breaking class bugs and other major bugs off the live server. I'm no expert, you guys are, but I'm sure you can figure out a way to do it. it's been done before, you guys can do it too. 	
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See it this way.
 
 
Every new content patch will 'reset' most bugfixes of the weeks before it, then they will copy paste those bug fixes back over it.
 
 
And again and again because the 7 dev teams all use the code of today and don't update to whatever comes out tomorrow until their content patch touches down lol	
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STOP MAKING EXCUSES!
 
Press: "When's WildStar release date?"
 
Jeremy Gaffney: "The release date is well.. when it's done."
 
 
WTF HAPPENED?!! 	
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See it this way.
 
 
Every new content patch will 'reset' most bugfixes of the weeks before it, then they will copy paste those bug fixes back over it.
 
 
And again and again because the 7 dev teams all use the code of today and don't update to whatever comes out tomorrow until their content patch touches down lol
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			Disregard this post. 	
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By their own admission they are working on like 5 or 6 different builds at all times.
 
No wonder the patch notes always have some crazy stuff that was "fixed" in a previous iteration, broken again and back as "fixed" on the PTR.
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That's a good post, thank you Teq. It doesn't answer my #1 question though, as far as I can see. Which is plainly:
 
 
 
Why push out an older PTR build with bugs that have been fixed on a newer PTR build to live?
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Kestriel, while human error is acceptable, it still boggles the mind that the same bugs happen with each major content patch "helping hands" ( and now a similar quest on the Dom side). *shrug*
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			The bugs made it in because no one on QA plays a dps spellslinger, and the one guy that might probably has no idea what he's doing.	
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Kestriel, while human error is acceptable, it still boggles the mind that the same bugs happen with each major content patch "helping hands" ( and now a similar quest on the Dom side). *shrug*
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			It boils down to you can either have A) Constant content drops or B ) Relatively bug free content drops.  You can't have both.	
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Actually, I think The Point is: 
 
We don't like live releases with reported, game-breaking PTR bugs in them and hope Carbine gets better at it because we love the game.	
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Actually, I think The Point is: 
 
We don't like live releases with reported, game-breaking PTR bugs in them and hope Carbine gets better at it because we love the game.
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You're welcome. It doesn't directly answer your question, but like other posters said, since they are working on 5-6 development branches at any given time it's very likely that they push some older version which doesn't include previously fixed bugs.
 
 
The official respone on the post I linked says they're using CI (Continuous Integration) this approach should - in theory, and in practice to a degree - solve the wrong version commits. Although, it's really up to how they integrate CI. There might be a problem on that side.
 
That's personally why I usually prefer manuel merges over CI, it makes management simpler (for my taste) and help finding what went wrong during a push / merge if there is a version conflict exists.
 
It totally depends on the development team's size and discipline, though.
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Carblind needs to read the /bugs and /tickets submitted from PTR, even if it is only 4 total reports. (Everyone loves boom boxes)
 
then they need to work out the details the issues that were found.
 
submit bug fixes and patches to the PTR server, saving the live server from Hellfire and Brimstone.
 
See what they broke, see what still needs to be completed, updated, fixed. Submit those to the PTR and update it again.
 
See what they broke again, and fix those bugs and submit another patch to the PTR.
 
Maybe.. patch the live servers now. Probably not though.
 
it would be the humane thing to do.	
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