143379-a-discussion-about-runes-and-content-accessability

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I'm interested in people's thoughts on this, as I've seen them rattling about other threads. Up until now, my complaint about the run system has been cost. I wanted to see how it all works itself out. Hopefully the recent changes will help with that.
 
But now I'm concerned with the system as a mechanic of the game. Now my personal bias is this: I've been enjoying the process. I like tweaking numbers, and the way the rune system now works is pretty cool and fun. You can really get details with your character and get it "just right", which is fun. I do think Carbine hit the intent with this. I'm a little concerned that everyone in BiS gear will have exactly the same rune loadout, but I'm a ways off from that so I don't know what that part is like. For my part, I like that there's a nice, fat reward for investing time and effort into figuring out the "puzzle" of runes. Doing your runes well makes a big impact.
 
But.
 
I fear this is not good for content accessibility, and that concerns me. Because runes are *so* powerful, the content is tuned to require them. What is a nice-to-have kind of thing in other games is absolutely essential in WS, from what I'm hearing even on the most casual content: expeditions. In fact, I've experienced a significant impact even putting runes in my leveling gear. While that is kind of cool, it's also problematic because I fear casual players are not going to understand this. They are going to hit content unruned and it's going to be discouraging. Now vet dungeons is one thing- I can give those a pass, because at that level people need to start diving in a little. But for expeditions and adventures? I'm not sure this is good for the game.
 
Carbine wanted to make the gear easier. They did. But the gear is now worthless without utilizing the rune system, which is not simple. This defeats the purpose.
 
Now I get this much- if you aren't going to mess with re-rolls and stuff, the rune system is super easy now. You figure out if your gear is support or dps, buy the appropriate rune for each color, and off you go. It isn't complicated. *If* you know that you need to rune (big *if*), it's a pretty easy process.
 
Except that it isn't. It would be if you ignored all the min/max "elder" stuff like sets, exceptionals, class sets, etc. If none of that was in the game, I think most casual players wouldn't struggle with runing. But it *is* in the game, you are presented with multiple tabs, and that's just going to confuse a lot of people. If you are going to tune the content to require runes (which I don't think you should for the most casual content, but there it is), then you need to make this process as simple as possible. I'm not sure what can be done, and I'm interested in the views of other players, both more hardcore and casual than myself, and I'm projecting a lot. I just want to see the discussion happen in a central place.
 
Would the following (completely brainstorming) ideas help?
 
-Separate out the rune sets and simple runes into completely separate rune crafting stations, one marked "elder". This could provide a super clean interface for people who need to rune out their gear without diving into the deep end. The normal rune crafting station would just present easy to craft runes for each color and guide players through the simple steps. Hide re-roll options, even. The "elder" station would have the more complicated runes and allow more tweaking.
 
-Pop a warning when entering/queueing for all instanced content for people with missing runes telling them how many they are missing (which you could toggle off) to drive home the point that the content is tuned to require runes?
 
-Have gear come pre-runed with non-set runes. Allows gear to stay simple at the lower levels, and min/maxers on the edge of content still have to tweak and mess around with the "deep" system.
 
Anyway, just my thoughts. Interested in yours.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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I gotta tell you, brother ... Runes hurt my brains.
 
I don't like math. I installed TapThat because I don't like puzzles. My entire life outside of gaming is math, colors, puzzles and making things work optimally.
 
I *loathe* the idea of min-maxing in a game and I *extra loathe* that I finally got good at the old system, only to have it completely stripped away.
 
The new system hasn't "clicked" with me yet, though (thanks to yesterdays Coffee thread) I understand the basics much better. I have to get into the system this weekend, so hopefully that'll clear up the last of my concerns.
 
All that said, I do find it more than slightly counter-productive that the devs "dumbed down"  all the stats and gear to be "easier to understand" and then they turn around and ladle this gigantic helping of WTFBBQROFLCOPTER on our plates to compensate.
 
"Oh, the words Moxie and Brutality are too difficult to understand, so here are 50 pages of algebra math homework to make up for not having to do vocabulary words."	
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			i think they took a complex system and revamped it into a more complex system all in the name of making things easier to understand.  I kept saying if they make these changes at f2p no one will know what to do with the runes, at least at the time people had a good grasp on the initial "complex" system and could guide new players on what to do.  now everyone has to learn a new system and it will take a while before people will get the hang of it.  unlike other things with the f2p transition, this is one change that made everyone a novice again.	
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...pretty ah not happy right now, but even in this state I agree - as my sig states - Im not a numbers person and Heavily rely on others to do the math and gearing for me and I am very proactive in looking for that bit of extra to information, and as you suggest could be the case in putting a barrier between people and content for those that do not seek out more information and/or play the min/max game.
 
Give the amount of information on the forums about builds and dungeons, its still only a small amount of people using it and let face it even when people read it, it can be fairly over powering. I tired to get me wife into the game, she has no clue about 80% of the builds and rune and amps and she is game whom spents hours and hours on Dark Cloud among others - I still lose the PC for a whole day when its her Sim4 time :(
 
I predict the system will be a turnoff and content gate for many still	
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			Remove the rune "colors" from the gear. Gear would just have generic rune slots and you could slot any configuration of runes into those slots. They could also probably remove half, or more, of the useless runes. Why does there have to be so many? Do they ALL get used? I highly doubt it. Most classes have a handful of runes/sets that they want for dps/healing/tanking and the rest are ignored, never to be crafted or slotted.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Thelonious	
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As I said in another thread any subsystem of the game (fine tuning gear) that requires a spreadsheet of the kind used for creative corporate accounting is a problem, it is a barrier to enjoyment and engagement.
 
I want to play the game, not the "meta game" of algebraic formulas to figure out which rune to use where.
 
However, now you we can buy Service Tokens for RL cash don't expect the system to get easier to understand or more streamlined - that horse has already bolted.
 
My second toon is fast approaching level 50; already guildies are telling me how they will help me out runing up, and what I need to do where.
 
No!
 
What I need to do (especially from carbine's PoV) is to enjoy playing the game.  Its time game developers started remembering that games are supposed to be fun, an escape from the drudgery of work etc.
 
All The Best	
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Remove the rune "colors" from the gear. Gear would just have generic rune slots and you could slot any configuration of runes into those slots. They could also probably remove half, or more, of the useless runes. Why does there have to be so many? Do they ALL get used? I highly doubt it. Most classes have a handful of runes/sets that they want for dps/healing/tanking and the rest are ignored, never to be crafted or slotted.
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OK, here is my experience:
 
I am not a hardcore raider/dungeon master. Pre F2P runes on my main had me at 3100 AP which meant that I could do any pre-raid content and all vet expeditions and adventures without getting my face waffle-stomped. This I understood and it was no big deal. I could do all the content that I wanted to do without feeling bad about my gear/runes or my ability to DPS the crap out of things that I wanted to kill.
 
Post F2P, I was pretty confused about runes, I'm not going to lie. So what I did was make some alts with the same class to raise them up starting at ground level etc. What I have found is that it's the gear that makes the biggest difference and that until you get to, say Wilderrun you can fuddle through with the odd rune. After that, you need to rune because you are getting hurt by mobs and simply not producing enough AP.
 
I just hit Malgrave and need to think a lot harder about runes. I looked into my tradeskill bag to see where I was with runes and signs and realized that I don't have nearly enough stuff  :huh:
 
Now I salvage everything (and I mean everything, I have never sold armor or weapons to a merchant). I could rune my gear and not have enough to rune within the next few changes of gear. (Leveling you change gear a lot.) Even if I was very careful and only runed the better pieces by the time I hit max level and started gathering much better gear, I would be stuck trying to get rune fragments to be able to get runed in gear that I would actually be wearing for a while.
 
So I feel in a quandary over runes. I have listened to guildmates complain about the lack of  fragments. So at this point, my toon feels weak compared to pre F2P stats and unsure as to how I will be able to rune gear to get to cap and beyond.
 
I like runes and believe they are important even for leveling but where is everyone getting rune fragments? Because I'm sure as hell not getting nearly enough to make it happen.	
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I love the ability to shape a character through runes, what I don't love is how much runes dictate your stats.
 
In other games there have been runes they provide a nice bonus and you want good ones but at the same time they didn't dictate the entirety of your gear.
 
In Wildstar runes seem to be about what 70%-80% of your stats. It makes how you rune, and what your une very, very important.
 
Not to mention new players struggle with the cost, and why do they want to rune adventure or less gear when they are replacing gear every dungeon run.
 
Cool, system, slightly to complicated, and expensive.	
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Well the thing is, you actually don't need spreadsheets or any of that jazz if all you want to do is poke some runes into your gear. Which is probably sufficient (in most cases) for anything before raids. But the interface doesn't really guide you down that path, and so you feel like you have to understand all the complex stuff when all you really need to do is craft whatever color is in your gear and stick it in.
 
The real problem is that runes are such a huge portion of our damage, and that really can't change without a complete rebalance.
 
However, another suggestion that would solve a lot of problems is for gear to come pre-runed with simple, non-set runes. This way the casual players don't have to think too much about it, can equip upgrades as they come in, and the "depth" is preserved for the min/maxers on the cutting edge of content.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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I like runes and believe they are important even for leveling but where is everyone getting rune fragments? Because I'm sure as hell not getting nearly enough to make it happen.
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From the AH :(
 
(Or from salvaging glory gear in the case of raid level gear).
 
Our guild is fortunate enough to be in the place that most of our GA gear is getting salvaged these days, so we earn rune frags from doing that. A full clear nets us about enough to craft 5 exceptional runes raid wide. That's across 20 people who each have 35 slots to fill. Weeeee!
 
(But they did say they are changing this).
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			Making the game's systems intuitive seems to be the biggest challenge for this dev team.  They've got an interesting story, great art, engaging gameplay and lots of stuff to do, but communicating game systems and imparting mastery of those systems to their players seems far beyond them.  Some of that may be alleviated by the players as information resources become more robust (IF they become more robust - the stop-and-start nature of the game's popularity made for enough informational dead ends that it's going to be slow going if it goes at all).  Still, I find myself struggling against the user interface and trying to figure out how to do things more often in this game than I like.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Shendorion	
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And when we looked on the AH there were ZERO fragments. So that's not the answer for the general population. IMO, of course.
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Ahahahahahahahahahahahaa... runes...
 
I honestly enjoy min-maxing, so the complexity doesn'the bug me. I enjoyed working out the puzzle of filling out my rune sets pretty drop 6 (even though my gear was just dungeon, world boss, and a couple contract pieces). I'd probably enjoy it now, too, but... yup, never going to be not bitter at Carbine for ripping all my hard work away from me.	
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Well the thing is, you actually don't need spreadsheets or any of that jazz if all you want to do is poke some runes into your gear. Which is probably sufficient (in most cases) for anything before raids. But the interface doesn't really guide you down that path, and so you feel like you have to understand all the complex stuff when all you really need to do is craft whatever color is in your gear and stick it in.
 
The real problem is that runes are such a huge portion of our damage, and that really can't change without a complete rebalance.
 
However, another suggestion that would solve a lot of problems is for gear to come pre-runed with simple, non-set runes. This way the casual players don't have to think too much about it, can equip upgrades as they come in, and the "depth" is preserved for the min/maxers on the cutting edge of content.
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Carbine wanted to make the gear easier. They did. But the gear is now worthless without utilizing the rune system, which is not simple. This defeats the purpose.
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 to be fair it does seem to be spread out over the classes on which stats are the best to slot for.  I am not sure which runes are not used.  It doesn't seem like very many though as each class and spec goes for different stats.  Even with the esper there was some discussion on multi hit vs vigor/crit sev.  Strikethrough is pretty universal, armor pierce may be the least used but i am no speaking from any real experience on that one with my classes.
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Maybe it's just me, but... I find this system easier to manage than the old one.
 
The problem (for me) with the previous system is that by themselves each rune amounted to basically nothing, bore no direct relation to the element, and had so many permutations, that this became a fairly regular exchange in my brain
 
"Yay, I can make a rune for this slot for... 9 more support power?... that's a whole 0.4% gain... great ;P"
 
"Or... I can slot this for... 13 more Tech?... is that more than 9 support power?... lemme check... oh, balls, it's less. What's the point in that? Oh but wait, it'll get me closer to a notch on that Tech scale thing, so that'll mean it's worth a bit MORE than 9... right? I guess so."
 
"But... hold on... I can make rune SETS that ALSO have tech or support?... right, I guess I want to aim for the rune-sets then. So... then I'll need 4 of them, and 1 of them, and 2 of them to craft it and... oh bloody hell, that rune SET doesn't have Tech in that elemental slot?!"
 
(dramatised slightly for the hell of it ;P)
 
it wasn't intuitive AT ALL
 
The fact that every time you got a new bit of gear you'd have to start playing rune-set jenga in order to keep all those 12/12 bonuses you spent hours working on before became a right pain in the backside.
 
Now... I'll definitely agree that the new system is a bit expensive and the existence of the BASIC runes could really do with being highlighted for those levelling and getting used to the system (Slyjeff - I'm totally with you on the idea of separating out a basic runes and set runes section for rune crafting, it'll make it a lot clearer), but I'm also very glad that each rune is now WORTH something itself and actually matters. They are no longer just a means to an end with a bit of a stat on it.	
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I feel like if runes are going to be mandatory, make them more affordable.
 
Being a returning player, I leveled a new character.  Ended up with about 2.5 plat before I tried to craft stuff (BAD idea, went broke). 
 
Runes are NOT cheap to make or buy for a new 50.	
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The whole rune crafting situation suffers from a couple bad QoL decisions:
 
1) the distance in Thayd from the rune crafting station to AH/CX. If you are short a sign or fragment you have to hoof it all the way down the hill, buy your stuff and then go back up. This is compounded by
2) the runecrafting interface. Just using the built-in interface would make this a horrid undertaking. Using Runemaster is - again - a must. This helps getting a count for the mats you need, so hopefully you won't have to run back and forth several times. Finally,
3) no more weakened runes. Everything has to be crafted. The drop rates even for low level fragments is pitiful, so without buying any mats you may not be able to do more than one or two runes, which really undersells the value of runes.
 
Runes are so important now, there really should be some "reminder" at 50 about them. Maybe add a quest that gives you a bunch of High or Greater level runes to prod you about this. Otherwise, chances are, at 50, the first thing you hear about runes are snide comments in your adventure or dungeon party chat about that noob lord who came in here without even throwing some basic runes in his gear.	
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I got my set pieces last night for my rune set, and discovered that I only have 19 pure fragments.
I don't have too much of an issue with the current system, per say since it's more isolated to individual pieces rather than spread out all over.  BUT, the materials cost to make these things is nuts.  I get the special drops, not a problem there, but the smaller fragments that are uncommon are actually harder to get then the legendary pieces.  Something just doesn't feel right about that.
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by DuncanEllis	
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I personally would like to see the whole damn system scrapped. They have always been a hindrance and seems Carbine as well as the players are always trying to figure out how to make it a system that works. 
Runes are also associated with magic, which doesn't fit well in a sci-fy-ish type game.
My suggestion is to replace them with circuits or some sort of mod that we can add to equipment. Instead of adding stats these circuits will add increased effects to your abilities. Say I am an esper and get a circuit that will grant me a chance to cast an enhanced finisher for my "eagle strike". Not only does it do a little more damage it could have a separate animation as well, maybe summoning a phoenix instead.
I realize this might be tougher to balance in, but IMHO it sure would be a much better way of handling the rune problem that just won't go away.	
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I personally would like to see the whole damn system scrapped.
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			There's little to no chance of this system being scrapped as they have probably already planned their content difficulty around it, but I think it'll be a fine system as long as players learn about runes MUCH sooner than they are. I think a good way to solve this problem (in addition to the fixes that are already upcoming with increased fragment drops and cost reduction) is to include runes in all quest rewards. New players will get their greens and blues with empty runeslots and random runes. They'll see these mysterious things in their inventory think "huh, what's this". If this is started earlier in the leveling process they can afford to experiment at virtually no cost and will get the hang of it quickly. 	
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Look, it really is simple.
 
Carbine don't understand how to make "challenging" content unless it involves a massive grind.
 
The original grind was Attunement - and that saw thousands of players walk away from the game - I was one; a-grind-to-unlock-a-grind-to-unlock-a-grind-to-unlock-another-grind-to-unlock-end-game is NOT challenging - its boring, and its lazy and unimaginative game design.
 
Enough people left the game that Carbine had to rethink Attunement - and they trimmed it (badly IMO).
 
But they just can't get their heads around a non-grindfest end-game and so we have a new Grind - Runing Up.
 
But that was so badly done that people complained about how grindy it was so with F2P on the horizon Carbine announce that Runing Up will be made simpler.
 
But guess what - they still can't think of an end-game without an unintelligent grind as a gating mechanism, so instead of Runing Up MkII being simpler it is more complex, more costly, and more time consuming.
 
Making a core game design mistake once is, IMO, no biggie - we all make mistakes; most of us however learn from those mistakes; it seems Carbine do not.
 
This does not bode well for the future of the game.
 
Why keep making the same mistake that has cost you so many players already that server merges and F2P were needed to save the game?
 
It makes no sense, from either a business or a customer satisfaction point of view.
 
All The Best
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by RedneckRPGer	
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Whilst not a full-on min-maxxer, I'm someone who doesn't mind the meta game of optimising my gear. Within reason. In most MMOs I play I usually get my gear properly enchanted / gemmed / runed / augmented / whatever. I'm not allergic to this meta game. Not usually anyway.
 
Gear optimisation is often quite complex in many MMOs, but Wildstar takes things to a different level of over-complication and micromanagement, made worse by a very poor UI, way too many options and a distinct lack of in-game information / assistance. When players need to rely on third party addons to make a core game system functional, it's a major design issue.
 
I didn't much like the old rune system for the above reasons, plus runes never seemed to fit the theme of the game being such a generic fantasy cliche. So when I heard they were revamping runes I thought it was a good move. I was willing to endure having all my gear stripped of the rune sets I'd spent many long hours putting together because I believed they would be building something better, more logical, more accessible, more progressive, more FUN. How wrong I was.
 
Somehow, in an effort to make the rune system more accessible, they've managed to achieve the exact opposite and made things worse. And to just to compound the issue added a huge gold sink into the equation and made runes an even more essential part of the gearing process than it was before. Stunning really.
 
ALL my gear on ALL my characters remains 100% un-runed at this point. Leaving aside the inventory hell caused by all the tokens etc for the runes stripped out of my old gear, I just cannot get up ANY enthusiasm to bother. And essentially this has locked me out of all the content I previously enjoyed, because runes are now even more important for performance than they were before. It's completely my choice, I know. But it's how I feel about the new system.
 
They've already said they are going to adjust the costs. They need to bite the bullet and go even further. Much further. Ideally they should scrap the rune system and replace it with something better, but this is highly unlikely at this point in time. So, they need to at least simplify things for the average players whilst keeping a more advanced system in place for the raiders and min-maxxers.
 
My proposed solution would be to create some preset rune builds (for dps and support) that players can buy for in-game currency and fit quickly into their gear. These presets wouldn't be perfectly optimised but would allow players who don't want to mess around with min-maxxing to quickly gain a reasonable level of performance and get up and running. Those who wish can tweak their slots further and the min-maxxers can spend as much time as they want optimising things perfectly. Everyone else can just slap in some presets and get out there having some FUN.
 
Of course having presets means working around the RNG slots. These presets would essentially have to function as omni runes that can fill any type of slot. Carbine are going to have to face up to the fact that their RNG addiction is bad for the health of the game. 	
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Runes will become less grindy when they increase the drop rates of the frags, which they said they would do.
 
My view is that's is a decent system and fun, but that there is a perceived complexity that harms it for casual players, and the cost/supply was not balanced well out of the gate.
 
By perceived complexity, I mean that if the interface was as simple as "here's a piece of gear, pick the right runes", most people would have rines gear without issue. But everyone is exposed to sets, exceptionals, and rerolls, and these functions really only apply to min/max end game. But a normal player exposed to these features now has to know enough to know they don't need to bother with these things.	
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From the AH :(
 
(Or from salvaging glory gear in the case of raid level gear).
 
Our guild is fortunate enough to be in the place that most of our GA gear is getting salvaged these days, so we earn rune frags from doing that. A full clear nets us about enough to craft 5 exceptional runes raid wide. That's across 20 people who each have 35 slots to fill. Weeeee!
 
(But they did say they are changing this).
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My view is that's is a decent system and fun, but that there is a perceived complexity that harms it for casual players, and the cost/supply was not balanced well out of the gate.
 
By perceived complexity, I mean that if the interface was as simple as "here's a piece of gear, pick the right runes", most people would have rines gear without issue. But everyone is exposed to sets, exceptionals, and rerolls, and these functions really only apply to min/max end game. But a normal player exposed to these features now has to know enough to know they don't need to bother with these things.
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Yeah, the UI could be much, much more streamlined and that would help.
 
But I also think the part about sets is when the complexity is OK, given you are starting to get into "elder game" stuff where it should be a little more complex. But I fear people doing expeditions and such see all of that and just kind of glaze over when it isn't necessary.
 
But anyway, yeah, this needs a better UI for sure. 	
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The system should not be complex in the sense of being unintuitive and flooding you with way too much information presented in the most convoluted way.
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Yeah, the UI could be much, much more streamlined and that would help.
 
But I also think the part about sets is when the complexity is OK, given you are starting to get into "elder game" stuff where it should be a little more complex. But I fear people doing expeditions and such see all of that and just kind of glaze over when it isn't necessary.
 
But anyway, yeah, this needs a better UI for sure.
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On Runecrafting:
 
1)  I don't think it's any MORE complex.  It's just complex in a different way with different ramifications.  It's quite easy to replace a single piece without having to redo a bunch of other things now, so isolating that is definitely an improvement.  
 
2)  Crafting cost due to low supply of materials and high demand due to requirements for creation of them (seriously, burning glory to salvage for pure/divine just to rune or sell to people who are?) is over the top.  This is being partly addressed I guess.  Time will tell if they manage to put into place sufficient mechanisms and mitigation for this.
 
3)  Getting started runing.  Now I've had some recent experience with this, taking an alt character I had at 50 but who definitely was just in a mixture of gear I'd picked up and getting him raid ready.  THIS part could use some working.  The difference between rune sets that exist below 50, the rune sets that exist at Superb and greater.  The whole "rune X goes into item of level Y" and managing that could use some tamping down I think.  I don't know what engine or design requirements drove that decision.  Just from a pure adjective standpoint, they're going to have to rework it eventually.  We've got High, Superb, Pure, Divine now, along with Augmented.  Each tier of content is going to add another adjective rune type to the mix and it's going to get unwieldy fast.  
 
4)  I don't have an opinion on runing while leveling as I haven't done that in quite awhile.  I still have a stalker around level 14 but I have trouble getting into a stalker mindset (I was never good with rogues either in other games).	
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But everyone is exposed to sets, exceptionals, and rerolls, and these functions really only apply to min/max end game. But a normal player exposed to these features now has to know enough to know they don't need to bother with these things.
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The far more important issue with the rune disaster are the class sets.  Class sets should be a nice bonus not a dramatic improvement over the performance of the class.  Because this is the case I cannot agree that runes "really only apply to min/max end game".  They are now required by everybody hardcore and casual alike.
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Going to disagree on this point, at least the detail of it.  Class sets are extremely nice.  They are, however, not required, nor mandatory.  They ARE nice improvements and we are working diligently to acquire them for all our raiders.  However, we've been knocking out content with folks just in their regular rune sets quite nicely.
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They are, however, not required, nor mandatory
 
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			I don't know about this.  I've been watching Karelas and Midgica put out some truly OUTSTANDING numbers over the past two nights.  To my knowledge neither has their DPS class set.  I guess your mileage may vary.	
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			Does using basic runes only gimp you a lot to the point where you can't do the raid content?	
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Does using basic runes only gimp you a lot to the point where you can't do the raid content?
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I think he means non-set runes.
 
I'm not sure what is necessary to start raiding these days. For my wife's alt we just stuck in a bunch of non set rines to get her started. But this is in anticipation of getting some quick replacements. If she was progression raiding, we might approach it differently. With just putting in whatever fits the color she's doing fine DPS for vet dungeons, though.
			
				
	Edited October 16, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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Useful to know, thanks. This answers part of my question I'd asked in the help section, here. The other part of my question is whether there's any longer term implications for doing this, such as the cost of removing the runes later (I'm assuming the basic runes can simply be destroyed to free up the slot again?).
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I think he means non-set runes.
 
I'm not sure what is necessary to start raiding these days. For my wife's alt we just stuck in a bunch of non set rines to get her started. But this is in anticipation of getting some quick replacements. If she was progression raiding, we might approach it differently. With just putting in whatever fits the color she's doing fine DPS for vet dungeons, though.
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