118364-changes-coming-to-datascape

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We are re-balancing Datascape to be a 20-player raid instance instead of its current 40-player size.This is, obviously, a big change and will frustrate and excite players to varying degrees. I would like to take the time to explain some of the reasoning behind this decision.We spoke to a number of raiding guilds--including all of the ones at that time who had experience within Datascape. The feedback across the board listed the extreme pressure that the 'roster boss' put upon those guilds, and the (in our opinion) excessive amount of additional stress it required simply to maintain a stable 40-player raid roster.Our analytics shows that the player buy-in (number of players attempting the raid) is too low and that the player turnover (players who entered, then left and did not return) is much too high.This change should greatly help in addressing 'roster boss,' player buy-in, and player turnover rate without losing the epic experience of defeating some of the most challenging encounters in the market. Making this change will also allow us to improve the experience in several additional ways:
Combat - Our combat system functions much more cleanly in a smaller 20-player raid environment. We feel that it has been extremely successful in Genetic Archives. Reducing the number of players in Datascape to match Genetic Archives allows the encounters and rooms and mechanics to be much cleaner, clearer, and enjoyable for players.
FPS - More people means more load, and a 40-player raid further restricted the pool of players with machines that were capable of running the content as smoothly as we’d like. Reducing the player count will greatly reduce the load on players' connections and computers, helping out quite a bit for a number of rooms and encounters within Datascape.
Future Content - With a consistent raid size, it allows us to streamline our future content and no longer split it among varying raid sizes. This will allow future zones to have more clearly defined places in the progression, and avoid the disconnect that can arise when attempting to compare raids of different sizes.
Guild Management - Running a guild is a lot of work. Having two separate raid sizes forced many guilds to attempt to rapidly expand from 20 to 40 players after finishing Genetic Archives, additionally causing the work required to manage that many people to increase exponentially. Having our raid sizes be consistent across all zones will create a clear expectation and balance for players and guilds that they can plan and build around.
Testing - It is very difficult not just for players, but also for us to assemble 40 people to test these encounters. This has made it very difficult for us to adequately test many of these encounters internally. Reducing the size will allow us to balance, tune, and bug-fix our encounters much more effectively.
Finally, I'd like to make a couple more points that deserve clarification and answer a few questions that are surely incoming:When is this happening?Currently we are planning to convert Datascape to its 20-player version with our 1.2.0 patch.It will be available on PTR in its 20-player iteration as soon as the next drop arrives there, and we would greatly appreciate all help players are willing to offer in testing it!Additionally, we created a PTR-only version of the raid's teleporter to allow groups to jump to any room in the instance and test it without having to progress naturally through the zone.Are the encounters being nerfed?No, they are not.Some aspects may feel easier to handle because of the reduced player count, but none of the encounters are being reduced in difficulty.Will the 40 still be available?No, it will not. Existing achievements earned in the 40-player will be converted to Galactic Hotshot achievements.The 40-player version will remain available until Datascape-20 goes live.Will the gear be changing?UPDATE:  I'm actually going to edit this section. J-Tal's team is doing a huge amount of work on the item-progression within the game that will go live with 1.2.0 along with this change. In that light, yes, the itemization will be changing. However, Datascape will continue to drop the best PvE items in the game.The number of items that drop per kill will be reduced to match the new raid size--you can expect it to drop about the same number of items per boss/miniboss as Genetic Archives.Any questions that weren't answered?Please post in this thread and I will answer as many as I can. I will also update this post with the questions and answers as I go.Thank you all for playing and for giving us so much feedback, so many amazing wipes, and some amazing boss kills!
			
				
	Edited November 14, 2014 by Timetravel	
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While I feel for the guilds that have been running this as a 40 man, I am super stoked! I had no desire to build up to a 40 man roster for this. I also had no expectation this would be re-done to a 20 man, so I had pretty much written it off for something my guild would see. I'M SO EXCITED NOW!!!!!
 
Thank you, TT <3	
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			Will this mean 40man is finally dead forever in Wildstar?	
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			I'm sure we'll have a small flurry of upset people (if a few people are good to their word that they'll quit if this happened, we'll lose some of our forum trolls! so win/win!), but this change was badly needed, and I'm very happy to see it coming!	
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After months of trying, we are finally managing to form 40 man Datascape raids without big issues.
 
That being said... this is absolutely amazing, I am not upset one bit and can't wait for it.	
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While I'm not upset, I'm a little bit sad to never see 40 man content with my guild. We're a casual nooblord (according to someone on reddit) guild and we are close to 3/6 GA, but we probably wouldn't have seen DS until next year. We'll have to make adjustments to our roster probably (we have about 45 attuned now and 30 raid ready), but I think this is a great decision for the longterm of the game we all love.
 
Thanks for letting us know, TT!	
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This is really good news :) But I would have prefer, to be for 25-30 man instead of 20 man!
 
At least the performance issues will be reduced down drastically, and ppl can react better to certain mechanics...
At the moment, some DS bosses runs worst then a Warplot match or Thayd at peak times!
 
 
But again :) I really like this change, can't wait!	
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			Is the 1.2.0 patch the one coming in January/February (usually called drop 4)?	
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			I hate you now TT. Couldn't you at least keep the 40 man version?	
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			No, I simply do not agree with this decision. Just expressing my opinion.	
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			Stupid decision.	
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Sad day. I don't really understand why you don't keep the 40-man in the game and just add the 20-man Datascape as a separate option?
 
I was enjoying the 40-man raid, I find it really strange to just take that away from us.	
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Wonder if any of the guilds tied at 7/9 will clear Avatus 40-man before this change hits.
 
I can't say I have an opinion one way or another on this.  I don't raid.	
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Finally!!! praise the lord (Timetravel)!
Best news ever!	
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			Smart move and what most of the original 40man raiders wanted. Adding 20 additional people doesn't enhance or bring anything to the table. It just takes away	
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What are the plans for the current DS? There are some fights that are overtuned and unkillable. Will they be fixed, allowing for current 40man raid groups to get to and kill avatus, before the switch to 20man?
 
I'm kinda bummed, 40man raiding is awesome, but it makes sense with the number of people seeing the content.	
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I didn't even expect to be in DS and I didn't think this would happen.
 
But now that it has, I have to admit I'm feeling pretty happy about it. Because now I know there will be a long road of content ahead of me. This gives me renewed enthusiasm toward raiding. Now if we could just defeat the roster boss for 20 people . . . haha!	
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			Wonderful to see this change Timetravel!	
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Sad sad day....
 
Don't get me wrong, I truly believe this is the best decision, and will solve a lot of problems, but my guild was finally ready to start 40 man raiding, and now this... and i was so looking forward to start 40 man raiding xD
 
Edit//
 
Though i do feel that they are making a mistake converting DS into 20 man. They should just leave it as it is and focus all their attention on a new 20 man raid.	
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			Thank you!!Getting 40 people consistently has been a royal pain in the arse.I could kiss you.	
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			Well done TT. Now just need to add Raid Finder and this game will be on par with the rest of the AAA mmos.	
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			Thank you. Rational pragmatic decision that follows market forces and the current state of the game (e.g. population).Maybe one day we will see 40mans again, when it's rational to do so.	
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We are re-balancing Datascape to be a 20-player raid instance instead of its current 40-player size.
 
 
holy freaking *cupcake* yes
way to go carbine finally getting it, so proud right now.
 
Keep making the good changes!	
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			Come on Carbine, don't be dumb about this! Just make a 20-man but keep the 40-man around for those that can do it.	
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			This is about the best outcome anyone could wish for. Thank you TT. 	
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			I feel like this isn't good nor bad...but "healthy" design change. I commend you Carbine for trying to bring back 40 mans and I think many people on board with Wildstar were happy with it as well, but like other things that have changed it just didn't pan out like I think players and developers had hoped.	
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Even though I was one of the people that enjoyed 40 man raiding I still think this is a good change.
 
It seems like this change is far enough away that the Avatus race won't be affected so that's good. I will miss big guilds and 40 man raiding though :/	
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I will miss big guilds and 40 man raiding though :/
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This is one of the best news I heard in a while!
 
The biggest problem with 40 man (in my opinion) was not the amount of people needed to get to that attunement level (even though that was not a small problem for a lot of guilds), it was the load on the computers and disconnects that people were experiencing. Out of 40 people you will find that at least 3 will have internet issues and probably more would have latency and fps drops, and it becomes quite hard to do something in some nights.
 
So if you keep the difficulty in (eventually add hard modes too maybe to raids and dungeons *hint hint*) I think it is going to be way better. :D Especially for smaller guilds out there (like mine) who had cleared GA, but had to invent some alliances and whatnots to be able to get into DS.
 
And also for all of you who still want 40 man content, well you have time to see it and most probably get pissed at the for-mentioned difficulties.  :rolleyes:  
 
In any case, good decision Carbine!  ^_^ 	
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It's awesome to see but at this point with the way the MMO market has changed, it's just too limited of a design to really be viable anymore.
 
What I'm really hoping for is some 10 player raid, or some new dungeons that are even harder than the veterans that we have now, and some more soloist content.
 
But the changes to datascape are definitely in need right now.
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			*cupcake*ing scrublord casuals destroy yet another game. I really wonder what will happen to my guild now. And STFU pls Spythe, it may be your opinion, and I respected it as long as I didn't see DS for myself, but now I am 7/9 as well and this change WILL make this raid worse. Twenty additional people bring a lot to the table, there is just so much more variance in tactics.	
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			well this mean that GA will be going to  a 10 man ?!?!?!	
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I think going forward 10 and 20 is a good way to go.
 
I'd like to see the level 15 adventures made into veterans, along with shiphands(confirmed already, but still worth mentioning). I think they have dungeons done very well, but I feel like they could play a little more with combat mechanics to produce interesting fights.
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well this mean that GA will be going to  a 10 man ?!?!?!
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I remember cheering when I heard that WildStar would bring back 40-player raids. I felt it was a hardcore decision for hardcore content.
 
I was also utterly wrong.
 
Nostalgia-tinted goggles aside, this is absolutely the right decision. When guilds are having a harder time defeating the roster boss than anything in the instance, it's a problem, particularly with the painful step up from GA. This will result in more raids, more people raiding, and less drama.
 
Thumbs up.	
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*cupcake*ing scrublord casuals destroy yet another game. I really wonder what will happen to my guild now. And STFU pls Spythe, it may be your opinion, and I respected it as long as I didn't see DS for myself, but now I am 7/9 as well and this change WILL make this raid worse. Twenty additional people bring a lot to the table, there is just so much more variance in tactics.
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*cupcake*ing scrublord casuals destroy yet another game. I really wonder what will happen to my guild now. And STFU pls Spythe, it may be your opinion, and I respected it as long as I didn't see DS for myself, but now I am 7/9 as well and this change WILL make this raid worse. Twenty additional people bring a lot to the table, there is just so much more variance in tactics.
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			On topic of the change to DS. It actually makes me more excited than I thought it would. I was initially planning to just stick to 20 mans, but GA has been amazing so far and I look forward to being able to raid DS.	
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			Why move it to 20 man only?	
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Don't know why, but i am hella salty about this. It seems good, but all i can think.
 
http://goo.gl/aqyPwf	
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			Great decision! Even though my guild started on DS this week, It'll be for the best I think, I've always been a fan of smaller raid size personally. And fact that its in drop 4, guilds still can experience 40 mans until then and simply split into 2x20 man groups when change happens, which  is what most people are doing already in GA to get to DS or attune more people for it.	
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Is the 1.2.0 patch the one coming in January/February (usually called drop 4)?
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Why move it to 20 man only? Why not focus on new content, rather than changing the old? There are people who have spent MONTHS building up a raid team, constantly fighting the roster boss, and now you're going to flip a switch and tell them to kick half of their raid to the curb?
 
What the *cupcake*?
 
Because of the dying state of the game, we've killed over 10 guilds to keep the roster boss at bay, and now it's all for naught.
 
What happens, over the next few months, while you work on retuning your old content? What happens when the people who know they won't have a spot the moment you make that change? What happens to the guilds who are currently progressing through the 40 man when 10 of their raid members decide to stop logging in because of that fact? Do you expect them to simply take a break when they can't fill their raid? What the *cupcake*makes you think they'll want to start over?
 
Just another bad decision, but I don't know why I'm surprised.
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well this mean that GA will be going to  a 10 man ?!?!?!
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This is an awesome change! Time to finally go buy my key and start the attunement!
 
Big thumbs up to Carbine for a good change! This type of good news is sorely needed amidst the rest of the chaos!	
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			That's... Upsetting. Sure, now my guild stands a chance at running it, but I always loved epic, big content, like 80 man world bosses in Guild Wars 2 and 200 people PvP maps. 40 man raids was what I liked about vanilla World Of Warcraft. To see us lose it is... Upsetting to say the least.	
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No, our plan is to stick to a single raid size and to make the highest quality raids of that size.
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Sad day. I don't really understand why you don't keep the 40-man in the game and just add the 20-man Datascape as a separate option?
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well this mean that GA will be going to  a 10 man ?!?!?!
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You guys should honestly consider a 10 player raid at some point.
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Even tough i dont raid DS 40 man yet nor i have a machine to run it.
 
Im sad because this game was all about its challenges and downgrading a raid size will take out a big challenge to the players.
 
U could keep 40 man to the Bravest guys out there! ^^/Sad	
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What are the plans for the current DS? There are some fights that are overtuned and unkillable. Will they be fixed, allowing for current 40man raid groups to get to and kill avatus, before the switch to 20man?
 
I'm kinda bummed, 40man raiding is awesome, but it makes sense with the number of people seeing the content.
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i really wanted to see forty man content so it hurts that i was not fast enough. however, if there is one thing wildstar does correctly it is its raid content and as long as the below quote remains true i have nothing to gripe about.
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No, our plan is to stick to a single raid size and to make the highest quality raids of that size.
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As much as people insist that the 40 man bosses will be uber l33t easy now, I'd say to the contrary that almost nothing of value was lost that day. How many of the bosses actually makes good use of the 40 man concept? No offense to the raid team as they've developed a nice 40 man raid, but almost none of the bosses takes great advantage of the 40 man concept to begin with other than System daemons, which in return turned out to be 1 of the most amazing raid bosses yet. Anything after Daemons felt underwhelming and I could picture 90% of the remaining bosses as 20 man bosses. Elemental pairs will be weird with 20 people however because of how some of the pairs work, but other than that Gloomclaw, Maelstrom, Lattice & Limbo could as well have been made for 20 man. 
 
I haven't seen Avatus, so no clue. 
Overall, this is something I've been looking forward to for a while. I didn't think it would happen, but it did. 	
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We are re-balancing Datascape to be a 20-player raid instance instead of its current 40-player size.
 
This is, obviously, a big change and will frustrate and excite players to varying degrees. I would like to take the time to explain some of the reasoning behind this decision.
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Additionally, we created a PTR-only version of the raid's teleporter to allow groups to jump to any room in the instance and test it without having to progress naturally through the zone.
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I'd like to see them stick with 20. Even with a 10/20 split you start running into the issues of having to double (or halve) your roster and the 20 size works very well imo. I've done a lot of 10 man raiding in other games, and I really like 20. The only way I see that 10 might be nice is with some of the boss in a box encounters. That would give guilds something to do on an alt/off/casual night if 10 people are around without causing the headaches of split progression size. 
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			I don't think removing content is the way to go. There's no reason to remove the 40 people instance unless it's too much work to balance (and then you should state it). Just remove it from the queues list, don't make the entrance visible but it doesn't have to disappear. I'm pretty sure that if the game grows suddenly some big guilds will enjoy 40 people content.	
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I don't think removing content is the way to go. There's no reason to remove the 40 people instance unless it's too much work to balance (and then you should state it). Just remove it from the queues list, don't make the entrance visible but it doesn't have to disappear. I'm pretty sure that if the game grows suddenly some big guilds will enjoy 40 people content.
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			It's unfortunate to hear that there will be no 40mans anymore, but I can't argue with those reasons. Wonder how many raiding guilds will come back with this change?	
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You guys should honestly consider a 10 player raid at some point.
Or at least some sort of smaller scale hardcore content, say a 3 player dungeon or something similar(harder than veteran, but designed for 3 players) or some more much harder tuned 5 player dungeons.
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I'd like to see them stick with 20. Even with a 10/20 split you start running into the issues of having to double (or halve) your roster and the 20 size works very well imo. I've done a lot of 10 man raiding in other games, and I really like 20. The only way I see that 10 might be nice is with some of the boss in a box encounters. That would give guilds something to do on an alt/off/casual night if 10 people are around without causing the headaches of split progression size.
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Great decision! Even though my guild started on DS this week, It'll be for the best I think, I've always been a fan of smaller raid size personally. And fact that its in drop 4, guilds still can experience 40 mans until then and simply split into 2x20 man groups when change happens, which  is what most people are doing already in GA to get to DS or attune more people for it.
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... almost none of the bosses takes great advantage of the 40 man concept to begin with other than System daemons, which in return turned out to be 1 of the most amazing raid bosses yet. Anything after Daemons felt underwhelming and I could picture 90% of the remaining bosses as 20 man bosses. Elemental pairs will be weird with 20 people however because of how some of the pairs work, but other than that Gloomclaw, Maelstrom, Lattice & Limbo could as well have been made for 20 man. 
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Is this the same teleporter as the one actually in live, only with every destination pre-unlocked, or is it something else ?
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What about a WoW flex style implementation? (gasp, he mentioned WoW, BURN HIM :lol:) I think that would be the best solution overall given how low WS pop is and that everyone seems to want different raid sizes.
 
Destroy the roster boss and allow people whatever raid size they want up to 40? Seems perfect.	
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Great change, and awesome to see this announcement with LOTS of notice.
 
Keep it up guys!	
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Problem with flex system is that it destroys in competetive aspect of the game and people will just try to find the lowest sweet spot to easily kill bosses. A horrible nightmare to properly tune. 
I hope they keep to their word and stick to 20 man. If the population declines so bad that it can only sustain 10 mans, sure, but it can easily sustain 20 mans for now. 	
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Any questions that weren't answered?
Please post in this thread and I will answer as many as I can. I will also update this post with the questions and answers as I go.
 
Thank you all for playing and for giving us so much feedback, so many amazing wipes, and some amazing boss kills!
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Thanks TT/Tyrius for listening to raiders  ;)
 
I really think as a long time raider that sticking to one format is the optimal solution both for guilds and developers.
 
Maintening two format is hell. Just think about ilvl difference and scaling of new raids.
 
I think hardest part of your work will be on reducing tanks number requirement on SD/GC. Other than that it should be only %age reduction.
 
GOOOOOD LUCK to your team and bring'em EP fixes so we can try Avatus !
 
 
PS : If you really want some help for 20men DS tuning, you should open a PTR instance on EU Datacenters. Latence is really important in this game more than every other MMO.	
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			Way to go Carbine, destroy the one the one thing that actually set Wildstar apart from other MMOs.  If I wanted 20 man content I could play ANY OTHER MMO on the market.  No faith left in a company that has no faith in its own product.	
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nevermind
			
				
	Edited November 14, 2014 by BroFistForLife	
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While I wasn't very interested in attempting Datascape since I felt that 40-man raiding was 2hardcore4me, I am still disappointed by this announcement, since BIG GROUP CONTENT (40-man raiding, 40 vs. 40 warplots) was supposed to be one of the major selling points for Wildstar, so to see it get bumped down to be like almost every other MMORPG sucks a whole lot.
 
I understand the reasoning behind the change, but I'm really really REALLY hoping that this isn't the end. Perhaps if/when the population increases and becomes more respectively active, will Carbine ever consider revisiting the possibilty of 40-man content?	
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I knew something like this was going to follow the change on the attunement process. Well... I wonder when the F2P announcement will come: while we test D4 or soon after?.
 
Basically you are telling ppl that managed to organize 40men raids that this is not a game for them any longer... This is a deja'vu of the same smokescreen reassons raised by Blizzard to reduce their 40s to 25s... And ofc all of them proven by time as blatant lies. In their case it was a pure technical limitation and a desire to offer casual players that lacked dedication access to raid drops they didn't even need to progress on their content. This 2 goals, didn't just require a reduction on the "roster boss" but a change on encounters' difficulty... Always the main reasson behind slow raid/attunement process and always the reasson that's trying to be hidden (Like calling "Server Merges"... "Megaserver Technology"... I loved that euphemism, tbh).
 
That's why the corporatively correct "we will not affect difficulty" to not scare remaining ppl enjoying 20 men doesn't surprise me at all and holds the same "confidence factor" as the "Delay for better polishment" raised to justify the unnavoidable delay Drop 3 was going to suffer because of NCSoft layoffs, that time, again, proven to be "innacurate", if we pay attention to what was finnally delivered this Tuesday.
 
If you are already saying that organizing 40men raids is too hard to keep on supporting them... I wonder how long until "the metrics" say that the remaining playerbase finds some encounters "too demanding" or "too prone to single player failure".
 
Well, was good while it lasted and I hope the Guild I belong to do not disband before I can see as much DS40 as possible, certainly this seems to be the goal behind this announcement, to start "inviting" hardcores raiders to leave the game to free room for the F2P casual crowd... The REAL message behind this smokescreen has been understood here...
 
...Thanks for spoiling our efforts, Carbine.	
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PS : If you really want some help for 20men DS tuning, you should open a PTR instance on EU Datacenters. Latence is really important in this game more than every other MMO.
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			I really like this idea. One consistent raid size throughout the game, but I'd also like it if lockouts go from raidID to boss kill lockouts. Please with this change give us a new lockout system.	
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Not impressed iwth not keeping 40 man.  Should keep datascape 40 as is, and allow raids to decide if they want to do it 20 v 40.  Having twice the loots is the exact same tradeoff present in other games, and would allow those who are capable to still have fun and play.
 
On the flipside, reducing or creating raids to a 10 size capacity will absolutely be the breaking point.  If that occurs, I know there are lots of players who will leave in exodus.
 
We all came to Wildstar for the hardcore raiding.  Not this watered down WoW bullshit.  WoW just c ame out with an expansion, do you really want to be a knock off?	
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Way to go Carbine, destroy the one the one thing that actually set Wildstar apart from other MMOs.
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			Well, I am quitting tonight then after logging in one last time to say goodbye. The only reason I played this game was 40 mans and killing system daemons was amazing. If I wanted small raids, I would play WoW. But c'est la vie. No, you cant have my stuff.	
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how do you intend to address the ratio of support players to DPS players in a change from 40 to 20?
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			Tyrius and I are going to have to start calling 'jinx' on each other or something ;D	
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I guess the most concise way to express my question is: "how do you intend to address the ratio of support players to DPS players in a change from 40 to 20?"   
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YESSSSSSSSS!
 
Wow, this is awesome news.  =D	
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			Really love this change guys! I'm not in GA yet, but now I don't have to worry about having crappy performance in a 40 man environment (my machine really starts wearing out during events like Lightspire). Sorry to the folks that will be upset about this, but I think this is a great decision to have more people able to run the raid now.	
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			So what this means is the following. DS 20 will come in 6 months (Drop 5) at the earliest. So a truly new raid will come in 9 months (Drop 6), again, at the earliest. So no new raid in Wildstar for 14 months, at least 14 months that is. What have you become, Wildstar. You were supposed to be raiders paradise :(!	
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			Best news I've heard since release. Now you just need to make it so the difficulty is there and with each boss fight it gets progressively harder. This is a smart decision and the faster you can release it the better.	
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			Hopefully we have the 40man version cleared by the time it comes :>	
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A welcome change to be sure.
 
One thing though: A lot of our players have become disheartened already, and have left Wildstar completely.
 
We would like to start up our guild again, but we need to know more about the plans after January.
 
It would really, REALLY help to build confidence in the Wildstar raiding scene if you could shed some light on the current expected (use those words deliberately, all plans and expectations change and the player base understands that) progression path after DS-20. 
 
In other words, we would like to know when you expect to release the next 20 man instance, and even the one after that. We don't expect details, just a "it will come in June, subject to change, and December after that", or whatever it is.
 
Without this, we have a hard time making old guildies come back, just to raid "the last 20 man in foreseeable time". That's not a basis for restarting a guild, after fighting the roster boss and losing. 
 
So help us help you :)	
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So what this means is the following. DS 20 will come in 6 months (Drop 5) at the earliest. So a truly new raid will come in 9 months, again, at the earliest. So no new raid in Wildstar for 12 months, at least 12 months that is, What have you become, Wildstar. You were supposed to be raiders paradise :((,
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We will still be working to bugfix and support the live 40 man version of the instance.  We are fully expecting to see Avatus killed before the conversion to 20 man.
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 No, you cant have my stuff.
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Please?
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So what this means is the following. DS 20 will come in 6 months (Drop 5) at the earliest.
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A welcome change to be sure.
 
One thing though: A lot of our players have become disheartened already, and have left Wildstar completely.
 
We would like to start up our guild again, but we need to know more about the plans after January.
 
It would really, REALLY help to build confidence in the Wildstar raiding scene if you could shed some light on the current expected (use those words deliberately, all plans and expectations change and the player base understands that) progression path after DS-20. 
 
In other words, we would like to know when you expect to release the next 20 man instance, and even the one after that. We don't expect details, just a "it will come in June, subject to change, and December after that", or whatever it is.
 
Without this, we have a hard time making old guildies come back, just to raid "the last 20 man in foreseeable time". That's not a basis for restarting a guild, after fighting the roster boss and losing. 
 
So help us help you :)
----
			Can I take a guess on the levels of difficulty? Looking for raid, normal, flex, heroic?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, I am quitting tonight then after logging in one last time to say goodbye. The only reason I played this game was 40 mans and killing system daemons was amazing. If I wanted small raids, I would play WoW. But c'est la vie. No, you cant have my stuff.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
*cupcake*ing scrublord casuals destroy yet another game. I really wonder what will happen to my guild now. And STFU pls Spythe, it may be your opinion, and I respected it as long as I didn't see DS for myself, but now I am 7/9 as well and this change WILL make this raid worse. Twenty additional people bring a lot to the table, there is just so much more variance in tactics.
----
			*hug*	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
DS 20 should be available on the PTR as early as next week. It will be available for play in 1.2.0 (drop 4)
----
			
Bad Form, shame on you guys at carbine.
 
You guys have used and abused your early players over and over and over again; making us struggle and work hard for...minimal rewards, while constantly making things easier for new players. Instead of releasing new content to fill gaps you guys consistently change the old content to make early progression meaningless. Every major decision this team makes is bad; period. 	
----
			
I would really like to see 40-man somehow available in one manner or another. If possible please attempt to keep them in the game. I have not yet had a chance to take part in the raid content. Yet the main draw was a classic WoW-esque raid enviornment. Namely the large size. If this content is removed then there is less draw for me at the end of the day.
 
That said providing a 20-man option is by no means a bad concept. I WANT to see it. I do not however want to see 40-man removed as an option. I'd rather see 20-man get lower drop rates in comparison to 40-man having drastically superior rates in exchange for a guild out there being bold enough to take on such a daring task.
 
Now since balancing is an issue I would imagine that creating a quick forumula to create what would essentially function logically should be plausible with a decent amount of effort. From there you could permit players to test it on the test world. Rewarding guilds whom do so with a random item or the good ol' boomboxes in exchange for ensuring content is in playable condition. With the 40-man option(s) delayed behind the 20-man until they were adequately tested. Generally speaking this task could be achieved with a small group of the core team, potentially. Presuming some of their time can be redirected to such a task.
 
'Tis just an idea!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I would really like to see 40man somehow available in one manner or another. If possible please attempt to keep them in the game. I have not yet had a chance to take part in the raid content. Yet the main draw was a classic WoW-esque raid enviornment. Namely the large size. If this content is removed then there is less draw for me at the end of the day.
 
That said providing a 20man option is by no means a bad concept. I WANT to see it. I do not however want to see 40man removed as an option. I'd rather see 20man get lower drop rates with 40man having drastically superior rates in exchange for a guild out there being bold enough to take on such a daring task.
 
Now since balancing is an issue I would imagine that creating a quick forumula to create what would essentially function logically should be plausible with a decent amount of effort. From there you could permit players to test it on the test world. Rewarding guilds whom do so with a random item or the good ol' boomboxes in exchange for ensuring content is in playable condition. With the 40man option(s) delayed behind the 20man until they were adequately tested.
 
'Tis just an idea!
----
			Best NEWS everrrr!!! 	
----
			40 man and this much graphics and effects is just not possible on an average gaming PC. you need a super PC to play on a stable 50-60 fps >.<	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Both will have multiple difficulties to the encounters to provide a challenge for many different levels of guild progression.
----
			
First of all, 20 man=no challenge but understandable choice since there aren't many players left.
Second, if you don't fix engineers soon you won't find any dps engineers around since many have already quit due to nerfs.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not impressed iwth not keeping 40 man.  Should keep datascape 40 as is, and allow raids to decide if they want to do it 20 v 40.  Having twice the loots is the exact same tradeoff present in other games, and would allow those who are capable to still have fun and play.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
First of all, 20 man=no challenge but understandable choice since there aren't many players left.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Its just a way of making the same content last longer
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Second, if you don't fix engineers soon you won't find any dps engineers around since many have already quit due to nerfs.
----
			So, does this mean no new raid content for around 8 months? (Not considering DS 20 man new content since it's going to be mostly the same fights as 40 man) Then we get Augmentors 20 and something else each sounding like they are 1 boss fight encounters with multiple difficulties. Then we wait around another 4 months for a new raid tier. If this is true it's starting to sound like the reason I left wow. Top guilds clear the content then wait 4-6 months for any new content and sometimes it ends up being 1 or 2 bosses only. While I do think this is the best direction for the health of the game, you will probably end up losing what little hardcore raiding groups are left if the time lines I suggested are close to true.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In GA we attempted to never require more than 3 'true' tanks. As part of this change, we are going to relax that requirement and allow several of the encounters to still require up to 4 tanks. We initially intended System Daemons to require 5 tanks. However, players are clever and several guilds are doing it with only 4. We reworked some of the timing to make that 4-tank strategy more feasible and expect it to be the standard in the 20-player version.
 
That's the same approach we took with most of the encounters.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So, does this mean no new raid content for around 8 months? (Not considering DS 20 man new content since it's going to be mostly the same fights as 40 man) Then we get Augmentors 20 and something else each sounding like they are 1 boss fight encounters with multiple difficulties. Then we wait around another 4 months for a new raid tier. If this is true it's starting to sound like the reason I left wow. Top guilds clear the content then wait 4-6 months for any new content and sometimes it ends up being 1 or 2 bosses only. While I do think this is the best direction for the health of the game, you will probably end up losing what little hardcore raiding groups are left if the time lines I suggested are close to true.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How quickly are you expecting/hoping they can deliver new, full blown raids?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Bad Form, shame on you guys at carbine.
 
You guys have used and abused your early players over and over and over again; making us struggle and work hard for...minimal rewards, while constantly making things easier for new players. Instead of releasing new content to fill gaps you guys consistently change the old content to make early progression meaningless. Every major decision this team makes is bad; period.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Please don't do this. Its just a way of making the same content last longer by adding one or two extra mechanics and making everything a DPS race.
 
If you mention LFR next this will be my last post on this forum.
----
			
Awesome news TT, next step allow exiles and dominion to raid together! :D
 
{| class="blockquote"
Avatus race
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			
BroFist - You asked in another thread about it and it was locked, so I'll answer here:
No, we do not currently have any plans to create a plethora of 'difficulty' tiers of the same content along the lines of LFR/Flex/Normal/Mythic.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Awesome news TT, next step allow exiles and dominion to raid together! :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			
I just wanna dedicate this comment to the awesomeness of the raid/dungeon team of Carbine. You guys rock! 
I could hug all of you, but I'm too casual for that  :D
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Awesome I always enjoyed this option when I was raiding Ulduar in World of Warcraft. At least I am assuming that is what you meant by optional harder mechanics that may involving hitting a large red "DO NOT TOUCH" button.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Awesome news TT, next step allow exiles and dominion to raid together! :D
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			I've gone from being sceptical to being a supporter.	
----
			
So two things here. First and foremost why was this not done way sooner like during beta when people where actually testing the game. The people have been screaming their discontent over the logistics of 40 man raids since they where first announced have already taken a pass on Wildstar. All you have done is prove the naysayers right and have effectively alienated a large portion of the market because of your stubbornness. Lets face it large scale raiding died way before even WoW contrary to popular belief. Sony was the first company to say hey wait a minute this shit isn't working anymore with their game Everquest. They figured out the hard way that having 80+ plus people in a single spot beating on a NPC puts tremendous strain on player hardware and their servers among many other reasons in the Planes of Power expansion, and therefore decided to scale down to a size much more manageable as you folks at carbine are just now figuring out. As they say history repeats itself if we don't learn from it. This is something that should have been considered when building a new ip from the onset. What has worked in the past and what hasn't, and this is one of those things that clearly has not.
 
On the upside you folks really have an amazing opportunity to turn this game around for many reasons I hope are realized. There is nothing else out on the market that offers the same player experience as Wildstar currently, and it doesn't look like there will be anything new on the horizon claiming to be a full featured PC only MMO for many years to come from any company. CAPITALIZE ON THIS WHILE YOU CAN. Fix the major bugs that have hamstrung the PVP aspect of this game since beta. This really hurts the game as a whole, and will continue to hurt the game unless things change. Bring it up to a level where people enjoy it as much as the PVE side of things. Blizzard has a winning formula for this with their game World of Warcraft and what I like to call a 60/40 split where 60% of the player base engages in PVE and the other 40% PVPs which is HUGE and has many positive implications. Firstly the queuing system is extremely active at all hours of the day. There is no trying to plan around a a certain time of day hoping that someone on the opposite faction is queuing only to find out their efforts where in vain because your player base is hardly intersted. This is the absolute opposite of any positive implication and means that Wildstar PVP has serious issues that need to be addressed pronto. These numerous issues have already been addressed to death by many other players in the PVP community so I will spare you a bunch of redundant text. PVP is the only thing some players such as myself have the time to enjoy. By paying you money every month to enjoy the only aspect of the game people like myself enjoy that appears to be inherently broken and neglected is quite simply absurd. I don't know how much longer people will wait around myself included for something to change.
 
I hope sooner rather then later equal amount of resources are allocated to fix the PVP in Wildstar, so it doesn't appear like the after thought that it is. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Might as well open up NA/EU connections, too.
 
I miss my EU bros, wtb beta raids :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So kinda like encounter achivements we got right now? Why change how it works?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wonder if any of the guilds tied at 7/9 will clear Avatus 40-man before this change hits.
 
I can't say I have an opinion one way or another on this.  I don't raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
A few reasons:
Having a consistent raid size was important to us.
Supporting both raid sizes--for such a large instance--would have been very difficult. Also, it would have put the itemization in a strange place, which we wanted to avoid.
Creating a new instance that was 20-player-sized actually would have been several orders of magnitude more work than rebalancing the current structure for 20 players.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So kinda like encounter achivements we got right now? Why change how it works?
----
			Quick question, but it was mentioned earlier that theres another boss in a box coming along, is it coming with Augmentors 20 and since we haven't seen or heard of it until now, will it be up on PTR or is it internally tested/QA tested? 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Quick question, but it was mentioned earlier that theres another boss in a box coming along, is it coming with Augmentors 20 and since we haven't seen or heard of it until now, will it be up on PTR or is it internally tested/QA tested? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We will still be working to bugfix and support the live 40 man version of the instance.  We are fully expecting to see Avatus killed before the conversion to 20 man.
----
			Very nice decision, looking forward to it.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
*cupcake*ing scrublord casuals destroy yet another game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, we do not currently have any plans to create a plethora of 'difficulty' tiers of the same content along the lines of LFR/Flex/Normal/Mythic.
----
			For anyone worried about the multiple difficulty levels of encounters I would say to just go look up some videos of the multiple versions of Roehn Theer in EQ2.  It is still my absolute favorite raid encounter and I have no worries about the future of Wildstar's raiding.	
----
			
Well, that's a little bit disappointing, but I can deal with this.  Glad to see there are no flex levels though.  In raid "supercharge buttons" I think are pretty cool though.
 
DO NOT GO LOWER THAN 20 THOUGH!
 
If I wanted small group content I would play Borderlands or Destiny with it's 6 person "raids"... yeah right. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Very happy to hear this.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
1.2.0 - Datascape 20
1.3.0 - [pending them being done] Augmentors 20 (currently on the PTR), as well as another boss-in-a-box encounter that we've not yet shown. Both will have multiple difficulties to the encounters to provide a challenge for many different levels of guild progression.
 
We are working on the next tier of raid content, and it will arrive some day, but I cannot give you a date at this point. However, we know what the zone is going to be and art has already created some pretty rad stuff for it =)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not quite the same. The current Challenges are usually rewards for performing the existing fight in an exceptional way. The opt in stuff that TT mention starts the fight with additional mechanics. The opt-in option will be in addition to the exiting Challenges, not replace them.
 
For Augmentors 20 this as pretty much exactly what we are doing. You can start the fight normally by pulling the boss, or start the fight by "pushing the button" which will activate the additional mechanics. To be clear, this not just something that just buffs the boss' damage and makes their auto attack do something slightly different.  It adds a completely new mechanic that the players must deal with in addition to the base fight.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
1.3.0 - [pending them being done] Augmentors 20 (currently on the PTR), as well as another boss-in-a-box encounter that we've not yet shown. Both will have multiple difficulties to the encounters to provide a challenge for many different levels of guild progression.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 ;)
 
It is kind of hard to reply to such a statement in a congenial way, but I'll give it a go. (Not that the statement, worded as it is, is deserving of anything more than an equally flippant and derogatory response.)
 
 
There is no logical reason to equate the size a raid group to the constituent member’s propensity to being “hard core”.
 
I put forward that the smaller the size of a raid group, the more “hard core” of a player is required, nay demanded.
 
 
Let’s think about it a second (OK, so for some it might take a full minute or three; Such as the author of the above quote :rolleyes: ).
 
 
In a 40-man raid, you are counting on everyone doing their part to achieve success. So let’s say that 4 of them are not doing their part so well. Unless they are doing something super stupid you’d be hard pressed to know they are not doing all they could. 
 
 
Thus a large raid group can survive a few members not performing to their fullest. In terms of the percentage of total achievable output, you are not down much.
 
Now let’s talk about the 5-man raid group. 
 
You must now assume that the content is meant to be of Elder Game level and magnitude.  Meaning the stakes are high in terms of rewards and the challenge is scaled to match given the number of players from 40 to 5.
 
Ouch! :blink: 
 
If even one member of the raid is off their game for even a few seconds, it’s a wipe. Done. Everyone is rezing at the Holo-Crypt and enjoying one of those marvelously snarky admonishments.
 
I say THAT is “hard-core”.
 
You scrubs hiding in a 40-man group are total wimps. Grow a pair and come embrace the horror! :D
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Well, that's a little bit disappointing, but I can deal with this.  Glad to see there are no flex levels though.  In raid "supercharge buttons" I think are pretty cool though.
 
DO NOT GO LOWER THAN 20 THOUGH!
 
If I wanted small group content I would play Borderlands or Destiny with it's 6 person "raids"... yeah right. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I know you think you really have a way with words, yet you don't even know what congenial means.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Full Definition of CONGENIAL
1
:  having the same nature, disposition, or tastes :  kindred <congenial companions> 
2
a :  existing or associated together harmoniously  
b :  pleasant; especially :  agreeably suited to one's nature, tastes, or outlook <a congenial atmosphere>  
c :  sociable, genial <a congenial host> 
— con·ge·nial·i·ty noun
— con·ge·nial·ly adverb
 
 
 
 
I'll select 2.a, b AND c for 500 Alex.
 
 
OK Mr. English major.
 
So I did not send this to my highly paid copy editor.   So shoot me and get over it already.
 
sheesh     For the rest, we will just have to agree to disagree.  If you can muster that level of maturity.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I hate to admit it, but congenial in my language means...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I suppose I should clarify this. I did not mean that there were normal/vet/lfr difficulties for the raids. The encounters themselves are being built such that there will be opt-in mechanics as part of the encounter that make them significantly harder--and doing so will provide more and better rewards.
----
			
As others have said, I don't quite agree to changing it to a 20 man.
 
30 man should be more manageable. Also liking the idea to keep the 40 man version for those who want to take the challenge	
----
			
This one really isn't my turf, but I would like to toss in the opinion that since the 40 man version actually already exists, it seems like a shame to actually remove something that some people really like, even if there aren't many who do it.
 
I wouldn't advocate for having different loot drops for the different versions, but maybe having both a 40 man version and a 20 man version would be a sensible way to let the people who love the 40-man dynamics still have their fun without forcing smaller groups to go through it?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This one really isn't my turf, but I would like to toss in the opinion that since the 40 man version actually already exists, it seems like a shame to actually remove something that some people really like, even if there aren't many who do it.
 
I wouldn't advocate for having different loot drops for the different versions, but maybe having both a 40 man version and a 20 man version would be a sensible way to let the people who love the 40-man dynamics still have their fun without forcing smaller groups to go through it?
----
			
I think it's a wise decision, though as someone who missed the 40 man train before, it still breaks my heart. I truly hope to get down Ohmna, beat on SDs for a while, and get sick of the whole concept before DS40 is removed.
 
Two things:
1. Is the team open to the possibility that DS40 be left in the game, with minimal fixes and current/DS20/garbage/no loot? I think it would be awesome to leave in as a relic of the past, even if there's not much reason to do it besides for the hell of it. I realize that for it to exist at all and function at all would take some resources, so maybe this is just idealism talking... it throws a bone to players, lets people who are really hype for 40s play them still.
 
2. Is there any plan/idea/possibility of making the lockout system more flexible? The roster boss also affects 20 man guilds, albeit much less than 40s. It would be great for guilds who are short a few to pick up a couple actively raiding players, and let people who want to raid on off nights do so without requiring an attuned/geared alt. If so, is there any time frame being looked at for deployment? Any chance it would be before DS20?	
----
			Sad to see this happen, I think 30 man would be a better change just like you are doing to warplots.	
----
			
Just a question about achievements. Cause i LOVE achievements.
Moving 40 man achievement to hotshot is one thing but are people with 40-man achievements going to get the corresponding 20-man ones. I'm unsure whether i want to farm achievements in DS and have to refarm them all when 1.2.0 hits. As someone said some could be harder to get with 20 people, but at least the 'immortal' 's are surely harder with 40 people.	
----
			While im bummed that 40man content is officially dead in MMO's, i must say im glad that Carbine tried somthing risky and new, and i appreciate their effort trying to bring back the good old days. That said, im pleased to hear that your listening and taking the right steps to make Wildstar more enjoyable. I had never beleived i would see datascape, but now i feel i might :)	
----
			
I wonder how many of the people who cry and use very colorful language are actually attuned to DS ;)
40 man raids won't work currently, people with 780ti's in SLI have to reduce settings to get 50-60FPS consistently, DC's plague the instance and tons of other technical issues make DS harder than it should.
40 man is also on of the reasons why DS feels more mechanically like a "traditional" raid rather than GA, the amount of mechanics and telegraphs you can shove in a room with 40 people is limited, cutting it down to 20 will actually make them to make the fights mechanically complicated rather than punishing beyond all common sense as they are now.
Carbine estimated that it will take Eugenic over 1000 wipes to clear GA as they currently stand, this is not hard content this is a poor an unsustainable game design.
PVE content should be hard but it should not require as much time investment as 2 full time jobs, having to wipe for 70 days worth of play time is something that prevents Tier 1 guilds from progressing at any acceptable rate and something that will lock out any semi-hard core raiding guild from any content above GA.
For guilds that raid for 8-10 hours per week GA progression is already slow as it takes about 1 night to clear a floor, 2 nights to clear both which gives them only 1 day on Ohmna which is probably one of the main reasons why so many guilds get stuck on 5/6 if they manage to kill Kurulak which is probably the hardest fight in the instance.
Now translate it to DS and you get what? almost zero chance to get any progression done on a 3 day raid schedule, and while you might yell dirty casual i doubt that most people want or can raid more than 3 nights a week, i have a feeling that the average attendance per person is actually lower than that even.
The difficultly level of the content is something Wildstar can use to it's advantage when competing with other games, however the attainable progression rate cannot be artificially locked behind walls that almost no one can climb.
This is why quite a bit of optimization is required to DS, and i would say even to GA(dropping the pre-Ohmna mini boss fights to 2 from 4 and adding some gauntlet event might be a good thing to do for drop 4 also since convergence + 4 mini bosses can take some guilds a whole night which leaves very little room for progression).	
----
			
So you say that you spoke with all guilds... funny. My GM counterpart and I were never a part of ANY conversation regarding this. You'd think it would be important to include the only DS progression guild on Warhound, but I guess you did not want to hear the opinions of the people that you would hurt with this change.
I honestly would not be so mad if there were still a 40 man option for those who have worked INCREDIBELY HARD to get where we are at right now. The 20 man content is what the game needs to stay alive, but we would never have come to this game if that was solely what was originally promised. We came to chase and go for something that was worth working for in the MMO world.  For those of us who are in 40 man content, we have been able to get here because we took the high roads and did not take any shortcuts despite how hard the path might have been at the time. We have weathered the storm, tolerated the honest mistakes that have been made by carbine and its many bugs, proved that the 40 man content was attainable and in the end did it all for what?! Just to have you take the last 5 months of what we have worked for taken away?!
The 40 man raiding group still works, it just takes time and dedication... worth doing in the end. I hate to see the promises that brought us to this game broken under the weight of all those who just want something that is easier to attain/do. Don't get me wrong, by all means please give them that, I want this game to thrive and I know in the end it will be great for the game as a whole... but please don't take away the 40 man. This is the most fun a lot of us have had in a long time... raiding Datascape the way it was meant to.
We have worked so hard... not just as GMs but as a crew that has grew incredibly close together through the difficulty that this game presented. There are a few of us that are doing it right and have created communities that have kept the subscription to your game alive... We don't know of this "roster boss" you speak of... So please don't punish us and kill the 40 man content. Please take the high road as many of your gamers that are in Datascape have and let us continue to smash our faces into the brutal content that lies ahead.
Thank you, and I really do hope you are listeningDoc	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This one really isn't my turf, but I would like to toss in the opinion that since the 40 man version actually already exists, it seems like a shame to actually remove something that some people really like, even if there aren't many who do it.
 
I wouldn't advocate for having different loot drops for the different versions, but maybe having both a 40 man version and a 20 man version would be a sensible way to let the people who love the 40-man dynamics still have their fun without forcing smaller groups to go through it?
----
			This is great news. Im a little sad to see DS 40 go as this sunday will be my 2nd time in their. However this change is certainly for the better. Glad to see carbine listening and getting back on track!	
----
			A year from now they will be dropping raid sizes to 10 man to make it more accessible. Blizzard already learned all these lessons, so i dont understand why Carbine insists on learning the hard way.Trying to get Carbine to join 2014 is like pulling teeth.  :unsure:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
BroFist - You asked in another thread about it and it was locked, so I'll answer here:
No, we do not currently have any plans to create a plethora of 'difficulty' tiers of the same content along the lines of LFR/Flex/Normal/Mythic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A year from now they will be dropping raid sizes to 10 man to make it more accessible. Blizzard already learned all these lessons, so i dont understand why Carbine insists on learning the hard way.Trying to get Carbine to join 2014 is like pulling teeth.  :unsure:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A year from now they will be dropping raid sizes to 10 man to make it more accessible. Blizzard already learned all these lessons, so i dont understand why Carbine insists on learning the hard way.Trying to get Carbine to join 2014 is like pulling teeth.  :unsure:
----
			This disappoints me a lot but I can understand the move and I respect that and tbh, it's a good decision for now and Wildstars populations cannot support 40man content atm. But for the love of god, please do not shy away from 40 man content in the future, one of the biggest draws for wildstar for me was the 40man raiding ( I absolutely hated Wow's 10mans and 25m was an ok num but 40 was home). Even you could have it where a raid has different capacity settings or something, just to enable the raid to cater to larger guilds ( I would be happy with this)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Bad Form, shame on you guys at carbine.
 
You guys have used and abused your early players over and over and over again; making us struggle and work hard for...minimal rewards, while constantly making things easier for new players. Instead of releasing new content to fill gaps you guys consistently change the old content to make early progression meaningless. Every major decision this team makes is bad; period. 
----
			
Sad to see 40 man go, but there was not enough players to make 40 man viable to any but the fewest guilds, and with the player drop-off it was just unreasonable.
 
This is a good change.	
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+2 ( me & wife ) and possible +2 ( our children ) for 20 man raids.
 
The game keeps getting better and better. Thank you!	
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Indeed a welcome change. I cannot wait to hit 50 and enjoy 20 man raiding with my family and friends that will be much easier to bring them in the game now.
 
/thumbs up /ignore F2P. More changes like this one please.	
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{| class="blockquote"
1.2.0 - Datascape 20
1.3.0 - [pending them being done] Augmentors 20 (currently on the PTR), as well as another boss-in-a-box encounter that we've not yet shown. Both will have multiple difficulties to the encounters to provide a challenge for many different levels of guild progression.
 
We are working on the next tier of raid content, and it will arrive some day, but I cannot give you a date at this point. However, we know what the zone is going to be and art has already created some pretty rad stuff for it =)
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{| class="blockquote"
So you say that you spoke with all guilds... funny. My GM counterpart and I were never a part of ANY conversation regarding this. You'd think it would be important to include the only DS progression guild on Warhound, but I guess you did not want to hear the opinions of the people that you would hurt with this change.
I honestly would not be so mad if there were still a 40 man option for those who have worked INCREDIBELY HARD to get where we are at right now. The 20 man content is what the game needs to stay alive, but we would never have come to this game if that was solely what was originally promised. We came to chase and go for something that was worth working for in the MMO world.  For those of us who are in 40 man content, we have been able to get here because we took the high roads and did not take any shortcuts despite how hard the path might have been at the time. We have weathered the storm, tolerated the honest mistakes that have been made by carbine and its many bugs, proved that the 40 man content was attainable and in the end did it all for what?! Just to have you take the last 5 months of what we have worked for taken away?!
The 40 man raiding group still works, it just takes time and dedication... worth doing in the end. I hate to see the promises that brought us to this game broken under the weight of all those who just want something that is easier to attain/do. Don't get me wrong, by all means please give them that, I want this game to thrive and I know in the end it will be great for the game as a whole... but please don't take away the 40 man. This is the most fun a lot of us have had in a long time... raiding Datascape the way it was meant to.
We have worked so hard... not just as GMs but as a crew that has grew incredibly close together through the difficulty that this game presented. There are a few of us that are doing it right and have created communities that have kept the subscription to your game alive... We don't know of this "roster boss" you speak of... So please don't punish us and kill the 40 man content. Please take the high road as many of your gamers that are in Datascape have and let us continue to smash our faces into the brutal content that lies ahead.
Thank you, and I really do hope you are listening
 
Doc
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			Great news. Best decision Carbine has ever made. Progression is alive in Wildstar!	
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			Has anyone actually count the people for/against the change yet? Guessing it something like 70% for while 30% against.  For all the people that enjoy 40man you still have a few months to enjoy that amazingness provided 40 people still show up to raid and don't quit once you stop downing bosses or get bored of the game.	
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{| class="blockquote"
WS shine by its difficulty and it's heavy progression, if they go with what WoW "learned" and bring the casual raiding, there will be no reasons to play WS instead of WoW considering the population discrepancy and the lack of 10 years of bug fixing.
 
Other thing :
 
As previously said, 20 man raids are not a bad thing, it is the fact that many guilds have worked really hard to access the content which made it even more special. Think of it as bigger let down version of attunement requierement going from silver to bronze.
"The content takes a lot of work to get to and a part of the community doesn't feel like putting the work needed, so we are tuning it down".
This was your core idea, "40 man raids", the essential of WildStar. Now I know that the size of the playerbase is smaller than what you expected, and it makes it more difficult overall, but by going to 20 man you basicly lose your identity.
 
Find a way to increase the playerbase and therefore make 40 man easier to manage instead of getting rid of the 20 man to accomodate the low playerbase. I feel like you are approaching the problem from the wrong angle.
 
Sadly, I love this game and will stick to it no matter what happen, but it will feel like a part of the magic is gone.
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{| class="blockquote"
Blizzard made raiding accessible to all players. That doesnt make it any less hardcore. They have different difficulty versions of the same raid. When we were 10 man raiding in Warcraft it felt really good because each member of the raid group was important, and their failure in what ever role they played would have a noticeable effect on the rest of the raid. We became close friends and it didnt feel like my part in the raid was minor. My raid team noticed when i had improved on my gear / changed a spec etc and vice versa because we were a small group. I felt like i mattered.
You make it sound like WildStar has nothing to offer without large raiding, but i dont agree, i think this game has lots of potential and could genuinely surpass WoW if the dev team wasnt so stuck in the past. 
They say they spoke to the top raiding guilds about this decision.. well wouldnt it be more important to speak to the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the game and quit?   <_<
So far i havent read anything from Carbine that gives me any confidence that they even know what direction they are taking. It just feels to me like they are just reacting as things go wrong.
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{| class="blockquote"
Blizzard made raiding accessible to all players. That doesnt make it any less hardcore. They have different difficulty versions of the same raid. When we were 10 man raiding in Warcraft it felt really good because each member of the raid group was important, and their failure in what ever role they played would have a noticeable effect on the rest of the raid. We became close friends and it didnt feel like my part in the raid was minor. My raid team noticed when i had improved on my gear / changed a spec etc and vice versa because we were a small group. I felt like i mattered.
You make it sound like WildStar has nothing to offer without large raiding, but i dont agree, i think this game has lots of potential and could genuinely surpass WoW if the dev team wasnt so stuck in the past. 
They say they spoke to the top raiding guilds about this decision.. well wouldnt it be more important to speak to the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the game and quit?   <_<
So far i havent read anything from Carbine that gives me any confidence that they even know what direction they are taking. It just feels to me like they are just reacting as things go wrong.
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{| class="blockquote"
Yes you worked incredibly hard...could you please tell us what does that mean exactly?
My guess would be you merged with 30000 guilds to maintain a healthy 40 man raid cause you need 50-55 raiders to have that.
 
And ofc during mergers half of them quited the game.And you made this all work because you killed ohmna a bit faster than someone else because you started raiding earlier in this game.
 
That's it........I understand you guys worked hard and went through a lot of *cupcake* to come this far but you need to understand the situation.
Would you still raid 40-mans if the 20 man version of Datascape dropped the exact same loot? I doubt it. You would probably split to 2-20man raiding groups.
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			DOCTARE FOR PRESIDENT< OR AT LEAST TIME TRAVELS JOB	
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{| class="blockquote"
More than happy to elaborate. You guessed wrong on the merging point. We took a stance to never merge with any guilds... ever. The second that starts to happen, the guild starts to lose its identity and starts to become one of these "meatgrinder" guilds that you are referring to, which are burning people out of the game as quickly as they are taking them in. We have always promoted constructive and non-toxic raid environments in the midst of hardcore progression, which in turn has lead to way lower burn out rates and high retention/enjoyment of our gamers. Did we accept large groups of people from guilds? Yes, but we were very clear about the standards that we set forth and the expectation that they are not coming in as their former identity. From the beginning, we have put anywhere between 20-40 hours combined a week as GMs to recruit, talk, and convince the right people to come over to our efforts here with Trashcan, and once we had them we did everything that we could to nurture them being happy with where they are at. We do still have turnover, but out of the core of 60 that we have right now, we have probably seen about 5 people go in the last couple of weeks. This week will definitely be tougher with this announcement.
 
We took the tougher path of getting two full progression groups up and going for GA. This took an immense amount of work recruitment and organization wise, but it let people own their spot in our guild. I feel a lot of guilds went wrong here and just used one group to eventually attune 40 people, really only giving at most half of the guild any kind of ownership in the guilds success and never fostering the success of another group to get to DS with.
Truth be told, we were 27th to kill Ohmna. So we were actually quite behind and saw a lot of good people go to other guilds instead of us because of it...Even at times lost people to it as well.
 
Hell yes we would still raid the 40! Fencepost and myself (along with many others that have come to this game) raided in the 40 mans of WoW and have missed it ever since. We signed up for this level of difficulty as GMs and have enjoyed, for the most part, rising to every challenge that has come our way. Hope the reply was not too long and thank you for reading through all of the first one as well :)
 
Doc
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Haha thank you Rennji! 
 
And ikillyouheal, feel free to believe what you want. If you don't believe in ideal situations, it becomes really hard to find one. Sounds like regardless of what I say, you will believe what you believe and that is fine. It has worked and is working for other guilds as well, but that seems to be the information everyone right now refuses to believe despite the proof. There is a lot of people that can't accept failure and are blaming it on anything but themselves... People not being able to retain a roster for Datascape is not the fault of the game. I am sorry that people made Carbine feel this way to the point of moving away from their original promises, but we are still here to ride out this incredible 40 man content while it lasts.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Absorbed / merged looks the same to me... people still quit when that happens. Recruitment? that ship sailed a long time ago.
Sorry but i don't believe in real life paladins ... not that it matters but even if everything you say is true the reality of the situation doesn't change and if something worked out for your guild it doesn't seem to work for all the others.
Proof 50% of the DS raiding guilds have quit over the past 2 months mainly because they were trying to make the 40 man thing work.
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			Really not a fan of this hopefully we kill Avatus while it's still 40.  The player requirement is not what is causing bleed anyone who is progressed in ds knows exactly why guilds are bleeding players besides WoD coming out obviously.	
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Does this change also include a large culling of basepop? So over the top right now (as I really, really think you're a very gifted designer of raid encounters, on the topic of basepop amount I have to say: what the h*** were you thinking?!?
 
:)	
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{| class="blockquote"
Haha thank you Rennji! 
 
And ikillyouheal, feel free to believe what you want. If you don't believe in ideal situations, it becomes really hard to find one. Sounds like regardless of what I say, you will believe what you believe and that is fine. It has worked and is working for other guilds as well, but that seems to be the information everyone right now refuses to believe despite the proof. There is a lot of people that can't accept failure and are blaming it on anything but themselves... People not being able to retain a roster for Datascape is not the fault of the game. I am sorry that people made Carbine feel this way to the point of moving away from their original promises, but we are still here to ride out this incredible 40 man content while it lasts.
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{| class="blockquote"
BroFist - You asked in another thread about it and it was locked, so I'll answer here:
No, we do not currently have any plans to create a plethora of 'difficulty' tiers of the same content along the lines of LFR/Flex/Normal/Mythic.
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{| class="blockquote"
Really not a fan of this hopefully we kill Avatus while it's still 40.  The player requirement is not what is causing bleed anyone who is progressed in ds knows exactly why guilds are bleeding players besides WoD coming out obviously.
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			As someone who is 5/6 but will probably enter DS soon I'm not really a fan of this 40man to 20man rebalancing. 40 mans are epic and bring about unique new challenges. Myself and fellow raiders have worked hard to get where we are at and are happy about that. So what if there's only a handful of people in DS right now? Gives us something to work and strive for (and not complain that there's no new content). People these days feel so self entitled to have everything without working for it.	
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{| class="blockquote"
It's not what i believe or what you believe , i have concrete proof to base my facts you only give your word....
You still didn't tell us how many people quited with every guild you absorbed , by your own saying you absorbed many guilds in the process you wouldn't have to absorb "many" if people were still playing the game.
And by your own saying you admited that the guilds you absorbed didn't have the same fate as your guild did now did they?. They HAD to get absorbed if they wanted to continue playing this game, do you blame them as well for not trying enough?Those are people who are still in your guild raiding with you.. so no matter what you say and what you believe you are too a victim of this game's lack of population and the terrible logistics that come along with a 40 man raiding content even if it is working for you....for now...
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Ok O2xygen.
Although he said so himself "Did we accept large groups of people from guilds?"
 
I guess you are one of the people that got absorbed and u want to maintain your sense of entitlement, i understand.
I am not wrong in anything i said because i don't talk about your guild specifically i am just stating what has happened in general.
Honestly i don't care what happened to your guild, i do care that half of the DS raiding guilds stopped playing because of the 40man environment,which doesn't work...in this game...	
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What we all the WildStar gamers should want, is better quality, more stable content keeping coming towards our way, be it 20 man, 5 man or solo. The 40 man content should R.I.P. in all kind of games, thank you very much.
 
See you in game!	
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If people want it to work, such as the GMs in Enigma, Diplomacy, Subterfuge, Codex, Enigma, Trashcan etc..
Then it will work, this is the top top top top tier of raiding content, not everyone should be allowed into DS,
 
DS is for the elite players of the game, and if you wanna become one of those elite members, then work your ass off and get into DS, This game bled hardcore at release,
only to be slowly moving away from it's identity as every patch/announcement gets released.
 
It's funny because at launch everyone who was interested in the game, even most people who are happy about the new changes to DS said things like
"finally some difficult raiding content."
 
Now all those people who find the game too "hard" or can't get into a guild because they suck are praising Carbine for making their lives easier because they want to experience DS.
 
It's a weak excuse for being a bad player.	
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Disappointed, started playing to see the days of 40 mans again.  I think 40 mans probably came too early for the game because it wasn't in a good place for release but guilds were also only focused on GA and getting 20 players together.  When they realised they needed 40 they adjusted and you don't hear the "roster boss" comment so much anymore.
 
Is it a case of a hasty decision to bin 40 mans now that people have adapted their guilds to cope?  Either way it's too late.	
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			Super disappointed by this change. Making WildStar into every other game isn't the way to go about re-invigorating interest in WildStar.	
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O2xygen, 40 man does not automatically equal "hard" it only says elitist in the sense that only a few guilds have the player base to support 40 man raids.
It is very short sighted for you to say that players in smaller guilds are not "good enough" to raid in DS.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Ok O2xygen.
Although he said so himself "Did we accept large groups of people from guilds?"
 
I guess you are one of the people that got absorbed and u want to maintain your sense of entitlement, i understand.
I am not wrong in anything i said because i don't talk about your guild specifically i am just stating what has happened in general.
Honestly i don't care what happened to your guild, i do care that half of the DS raiding guilds stopped playing because of the 40man environment,which doesn't work...in this game...
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Ok so instead of bringing a guild into yours "absorb" you made them do an individual application first.
We did that as well with guilds we absorbed.You didn't do something "tedious" or superhuman calm the *cupcake* down....
 
So in the front page of your site where it says "welcome to hoax members" that Hoax wasn't previously a guild right? that you absorbed....
It is just a code-name from a large group of people that happened to simultaneously apply to your guild and they all got accepted and nobody knew each other.
Come on man....
 
As i said 300 times thus far you are missing the point even if you did make it 50% of the DS guilds didn't,so ye that proves my point by itself no need to argue on it anymore.	
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It certainly is a mentality thing and it is sad to see that those that worked up to 40 man content will get disappointed now.
One way i can see the reason behind it but on the other hand it was nice to have something to really work up to.
 
Anyway this was not what O2xygen said, i quote "finally some difficult raiding content." Now all those people who find the game too "hard" or can't get into a guild because they suck are praising Carbine for making their lives easier because they want to experience DS.
I hope you don't agree with him there.	
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{| class="blockquote"
It certainly is a mentality thing and it is sad to see that those that worked up to 40 man content will get disappointed now.
One way i can see the reason behind it but on the other hand it was nice to have something to really work up to.
 
Anyway this was not what O2xygen said, i quote "finally some difficult raiding content." Now all those people who find the game too "hard" or can't get into a guild because they suck are praising Carbine for making their lives easier because they want to experience DS.
I hope you don't agree with him there.
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{| class="blockquote"
The change to 20man datascape is needed.
It's simply a fact that guilds cannot muster enough people to get a 40man raiding team going, outside those 7 guilds currently raiding in Datascape.
The reason is two-fold: People don't want to merge guilds, There's not enough people
 
Also 40man raiding is hard. Not so much in getting people together, but getting them organised.
Sure, I miss doing the 40man raids back from the old WoW days and what not, but I also remember the pain that came with it.
Just try to get 40 man to stack up properly. or get them organised on buffs and food. It's a chore on it's own.
To avoid that stress and save time, I'd rather deal with 20man raids.
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{| class="blockquote"
But that's part of the point of a 40 man raid - logistics and team play!  Organization and coordination is supposed to be something to overcome. And it's very doable. Guilds that want to do it, can do it. But I guess it's become the trend to argue "that's too hard" more than try to overcome the actual game objectives. 
 
If there's enough people to find for a 20 man raid, there's enough people for a 40 man raid... and if there isn't the game is in more trouble than any of us realize.
 
This was an unnecessary change, and too many of you are making assumptions as to why.
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{| class="blockquote"
No they CAN'T do it, not with this game's population...unless they want to merge 30 times over and lose people along the way that completely quit the game out of disapointment.
Even if they do,the rate of the people quit this game is faster than the rate of the people that start it so guess what will happen...and MOST of them are frustrated by the 40man logistics+40man one or two guys get disconnected =wipe + 40man fps issues/lag issues/server issues that carbine blames the players+40man a lot of other problems.
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{| class="blockquote"
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk about it. 
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{| class="blockquote"
They are frustrated because they don't want to put in the effort. Again, overall game population has nothing to do with actual raid size logistics. Stop conflating the two.
 
Players are the problem in all of this, not the game.
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			There is no facts what so ever, although you might be disillusioned enough to think so. How much has your Wildstar changed since the start  ;)	
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{| class="blockquote"
The change to 20man datascape is needed.
It's simply a fact that guilds cannot muster enough people to get a 40man raiding team going, outside those 7 guilds currently raiding in Datascape.
The reason is two-fold: People don't want to merge guilds, There's not enough people
 
Also 40man raiding is hard. Not so much in getting people together, but getting them organised.
Sure, I miss doing the 40man raids back from the old WoW days and what not, but I also remember the pain that came with it.
Just try to get 40 man to stack up properly. or get them organised on buffs and food. It's a chore on it's own.
To avoid that stress and save time, I'd rather deal with 20man raids.
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Yes, this is a player problem.
In so far that no guild wants to give in and join together to get a 40man team going. Even forming an Alliance is a tedious process.
And as long as that behaviour does not change, then lowering the raid content to 20man is the only option that Carbine can offer.
 
Don't like it? Should have put more effort in to get something working with other guilds.
But now it's going to be 20man content, and I'm looking forward to it.
20man raids are already a hassle to organise, let alone getting 40 people properly sorted out.
 
And yes, the population does have a factor in this.
When you cannot get new players in, then it's obvious that there's not a big enough pool anymore to recruit from.
And no, stealing/poaching other guilds is not acceptable. It's either merging, alliance runs or stick to 20mans.
The community has clearly decided how they want it to continue.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You stated the two main reasons why DS is not guilty at all... "People don't want to merge guilds, There's not enough people". I would like to add another one: "People do not want to join a circle".
 
Anyway, allegedly the content will not become easier which means in turn, guilds will gain access but smash their heads against a tough wall, called System Daemons. That is ok with me but I do not know if it will be ok for the guilds :D.
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Basically this sums down to players who have never done 40 man talks as if it's players fault. Once you actually do said content yourself, talk about it. 
Try beating your *cupcake* head on a unkillable boss for 45+ days then come back here and talk like it's players fault fire/life boss is tuned to either be impossible or is bugged. 
 
Wait? You don't know fire/life elemental pair in Datascape? Alright. 
 
There is more to it than just the players, but I guess you'll never find out. 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Basically this sums down to players who have never done 40 man talks as if it's players fault. Once you actually do said content yourself, talk about it. 
Try beating your *cupcake* head on a unkillable boss for 45+ days then come back here and talk like it's players fault fire/life boss is tuned to either be impossible or is bugged. 
 
Wait? You don't know fire/life elemental pair in Datascape? Alright. 
 
There is more to it than just the players, but I guess you'll never find out. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Basically this sums down to players who have never done 40 man talks as if it's players fault. Once you actually do said content yourself, talk about it. 
Try beating your *cupcake* head on a unkillable boss for 45+ days then come back here and talk like it's players fault fire/life boss is tuned to either be impossible or is bugged. 
 
Wait? You don't know fire/life elemental pair in Datascape? Alright. 
 
There is more to it than just the players, but I guess you'll never find out. 
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Oh please continue. You still don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Take parallels to content from 8 years ago to what we have now in Wildstar, which is a different game. We're not beating our heads on hard bosses, we're beating heads on impossibly tuned bosses. Even the developers know of the bosses and acknowledges the issue. 
 
Blaming the playerbase for such frustrations is completely ignorant to the issue at hand. You truly don't know what you're talking about since you haven't done 40 mans in Wildstar, that is a fact that remains. You only hear about the issues and brush them off as if they were nothing, please. It's just stupidly ignorant that players who has no clue what they're talking about has the audacity to blame it on the players. Datascape is a great raid, but it most 100% definitely have issues. Many of the raiders I've known through 40 mans have felt like they were beta testing the entire raid, which is partially true. 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Oh please continue. You still don't have a clue about what you're talking about. Take parallels to content from 8 years ago to what we have now in Wildstar, which is a different game. We're not beating our heads on hard bosses, we're beating heads on impossibly tuned bosses. Even the developers know of the bosses and acknowledges the issue. 
 
Blaming the playerbase for such frustrations is completely ignorant to the issue at hand. You truly don't know what you're talking about since you haven't done 40 mans in Wildstar, that is a fact that remains. You only hear about the issues and brush them off as if they were nothing, please. It's just stupidly ignorant that players who has no clue what they're talking about has the audacity to blame it on the players. Datascape is a great raid, but it most 100% definitely have issues. Many of the raiders I've known through 40 mans have felt like they were beta testing the entire raid, which is partially true. 
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{| class="blockquote"
That's not an issue of 20 man or 40 man though is it!
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{| class="blockquote"
There wasn't even any mentioning of 20 man what so ever. They're fine, it's a good size logistically and such. 40 man being riddled with bugs/exploits and such is also a big part of the blame for players not wanting to do the 40 mans. Outright blaming the playerbase for being lazy and not handling the 40 man logistics is quite offensive. 
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{| class="blockquote"
They are frustrated because they don't want to put in the effort. Again, overall game population has nothing to do with actual raid size logistics. Stop conflating the two.
 
Players are the problem in all of this, not the game.
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{| class="blockquote"
Ok smart guy , what's the play here then? Blame the entire wildstar population? or change a setting that causes this frustration?.
What would you suggest to Carbine? Leave it as it is and slowly bleed the rest of its players?
 
I really don't understand people like you that come and champion this idea "Ye players are not willing to put in work hours to make the 40man raiding thing work cause they are lazy n such".
STOP blaming the freaking players this is supposed to be a game not a 2nd job.No i am not willing to do 30 mergers lose my guild identity make half of the people that started the game with me quit out of frustration and meet new ppl all over again constantly even if it's the "player's fault" i am not willing to do that and nobody should be forced to do that.
 
Overall game population has EVERYTHING to do with actual raid size logistics cause 40 man raiding guilds need WAY more recruits than a 20man raiding guild = WAY more people.
Recruitment in this game is as dead as my great grandmother ask any guild BECAUSE the population is low and there are really few players that start the game and a lot more that quit it.
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{| class="blockquote"
Once again, players are the source of the problem.
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{| class="blockquote"
Perhaps if you’re losing that many guild members instead of gaining them, your guild doesn’t have an identity to start with.
 
You’re unable to lead and organize, so the rest of the player base should be punished because of it?
 
Once again, players are the source of the problem.
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{| class="blockquote"
If people want it to work, such as the GMs in Enigma, Diplomacy, Subterfuge, Codex, Enigma, Trashcan etc..
Then it will work, this is the top top top top tier of raiding content, not everyone should be allowed into DS,
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Trashcan best guild. All other opinions trash, coz not on Trashcan level.
 
Trashcan please pay 50,000 subs then you can have 40man. 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Perhaps if you’re losing that many guild members instead of gaining them, your guild doesn’t have an identity to start with.
 
You’re unable to lead and organize, so the rest of the player base should be punished because of it?
 
Once again, players are the source of the problem.
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{| class="blockquote"
No.
 
The only way GMs can make it work if they want it to work is to reproduce members within the guild for future generations... Unfortunately we do not have any grills in Eugenic, we're looking though. If any grill is reading this please apply to Eugenic we need your babies to fill our 40 man roster.
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{| class="blockquote"
grills?
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