122452-the-great-unplayed-game

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== Content ==
			
Just grabbed on to the trial to drop in for a wish:
 
Please....make it F2P or B2P. Soon.
Add RIFT-like instant adventures.
Add world PvP incentives.
Improve mentoring.
 
I love WS, or I love what it would be with people playing.
 
That's all, hope to be back.
 
Chuwie
 	
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PSA:
 
The above post is a load of rubbish.
 
This game is most certainly being played. The author of said post probably logged on a pvp server in the middle of the night with blindfolds on.
 
Let not the F2P/B2P maffia deter you from playing this gem of an MMO!
 
See you in game!	
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PSA:
 
The above post is a load of rubbish.
 
This game is most certainly being played. The author of said post probably logged on a pvp server in the middle of the night with blindfolds on.
 
Let not the F2P/B2P maffia deter you from playing this gem of an MMO!
 
See you in game!
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How about
 
No.
 
The game is technically buy to play anyways. Buy CREDD with in game gold.
GG game is now Buy to Play.	
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			Please do NOT go f2p.	
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			'Common, we are talking about $15/ month or CREDD. People waste such amount of money in plenty of things throughout the month.	
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I don't understand why you guys think the sub system will work when all evidence points to the contrary. We've been leaking subs and losing population for months now why would expect that to change? Every other game has gone F2P or B2P by now because those companies understand the business. 
 
PS - glad you're enjoying the game newbie! 	
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I don't understand why you guys think the sub system will work when all evidence points to the contrary. We've been leaking subs and losing population for months now why would expect that to change? Every other game has gone F2P or B2P by now because those companies understand the business. 
 
PS - glad you're enjoying the game newbie! 
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I was playing the BETA for months and also after release untill July. then made a 2 month break and started again to give it up (somewhat before #drop 3). I was really convinced there is a future for WIldstar with a sub-modell but now I m too conviced it will simply not work. Buy to play, or some sort of F2P modell is the only thing that can safe this great game imho. I do hate the micro transaction plague in F2P games too. If you took at Neverwinter, SWTOR, you really could throw up, but that does not mean that Carbine cant execute it better. Modells like RIFT, or LOTRO maybe even proove that a F2P modell doesn't always have to be P2W and the other crap.
 
In my opinion the key to a success is not only the developer but what players this game attracts. I will surely get bashed for this but I ve never played a game with so many "insert something naughty" like in Wildstar. My theory is that the "this game is for hardcore players..." marketing strategy thing lured the worst of the worst to Nexus. Of course that can't be said about the majority of the player base, cause its average, but the numbers of unfriendly, ignorant ppl in Wildstar is unfortunately so hight like nowhere else. I wish it had a community like LOTRO, or SWTOR, because that would have changed quite some things, but well... Its maybe too late for that. My hope is that Carbine now continues to stretch their arms for the casuals and more core gamers because every MMO needs both groups. Fact.	
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All MMO's struggle with player retention. The majority of players that try the game will not stay for an extended period of time. A reality even for the all mighty WOW (which must I remind you is subscription based and financially successful). That is a reality of the MMO market.
 
The other reality of the MMO market is that it is a saturated market (something that was not the case when WOW came out, in fact it was the opposite). Being a saturated market usually means you get a smaller piece of the pie (if you manage to get pie at all). Also, you need to temper expectations of what successful means when dealing in such a market (just being able to break in and establish yourself is a big plus).
 
The most unfortunate reality is that the most vocal audience of the MMO market is fickle and goes and comes with the wind (as they yell and scream).
 
F2P is not a more successful business model, it is an exploitative one. What F2P does (or ends up doing) is it allows the company to gather more money from a smaller player base within a larger player pool.	
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http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/13/the-soapbox-hows-f2p-working-for-soe/
 
This article explains exactly why Free to play is not the answer. A very good read	
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I don't understand why you guys think the sub system will work when all evidence points to the contrary. We've been leaking subs and losing population for months now why would expect that to change? Every other game has gone F2P or B2P by now because those companies understand the business. 
 
PS - glad you're enjoying the game newbie!
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http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/13/the-soapbox-hows-f2p-working-for-soe/
 
This article explains exactly why Free to play is not the answer. A very good read
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http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/13/the-soapbox-hows-f2p-working-for-soe/
 
This article explains exactly why Free to play is not the answer. A very good read
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Couldn't agree more with that article.
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 Modells like RIFT, or LOTRO maybe even proove that a F2P modell doesn't always have to be P2W and the other crap.
 
 
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You are right but noone can deny that F2P or B2P would bring in/back a lot of players who want to try to play the game
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The business model has not failed. There's other examples out there already demonstrating that a sub-based model, combined with a virtual extension of play works. It's also the most flexible system, people just need to realize that they have control over the virtual approach. And many bad factors? The only bad factor was the bad advertising and focus on #hardcore.
Bad release timing for WildStar? They released with their game before the WoW expansion, blowing any housing contest out of the water.
Face it, garrisons in WoW are a joke and get boring really fast. And that's speaking out of experience.
The TESO release was never a challenge for WildStar. Totally different target audience and game focus.
 
So thanks,, but no thanks for F2P
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The business model has failed. People will not pay a montly subscription for a game that is not completely functional; as evidenced by the diabolical retention rate that this game has.
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You are right but noone can deny that F2P or B2P would bring in/back a lot of players who want to try to play the game. 10 day trial is ok and nice, but for an MMO you need 2-3 weeks at least to get a broad picture how the game really works. Also dont underestimate how many players never tried Wildstar because they refuse to pay the 12EUR/Dollar in first place. The ppl who post on the forums that they quit are also NEVER representative and if you look at GW2 (annother NCSOFT published game) you can see that there are models which work without subscription and dont throw shitloads of ads at you like Neverwinter, or other F2P games. I can understand the worries but teh current business modell has simply failed big time and thats soemthing that cant be denied. Why not try something different. As said. The negative effects of F2P do not necesarilly have to be that bad as many of us experienced if Carbine does their Job and so far I think they ve done a good job. The problem is just that WS had to compete with so many factors. A strong and well made GW2, WOW addon, very bad release timing, TESO release just 3 months before WS and ofc some failures Carbine itself did regarding marketing and luring too many of the folks one does not want in an MMO.
 
I m confident that Carbine and NCSOFT will make a decission ina  few weeks because they will maybe wait and analyze the effekt of Drop #4 + 10 day trial. Its not up to us players in this forum and we can just discuss... not influence that much. Having played most of trippe A MMOs over the last decade I bet the outcome will be F2P/B2P... no matter how much some here refuse to accept it. Its business reality.
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I am sorry but the demographic that will not pay $20 to buy, play and try the game for a month is the same one that is unlikely to pay in a F2P model.
 
WildStar can certainly be successful in an MMO saturated market DUE to its subscription model, that is because it attracts a share of the market neglected by F2P & B2P (namely those that want a subscription). Because of that subscription they narrow their competition by narrowing their target audience.
 
This target audience (those that want a subscription model) has the potential to grow once the F2P & B2P model falls out of fashion and the market cycles back towards a subscription model (which it will).
 
Honestly, maintaining a subscription model just makes the most sense. Remember that the lack of perceived population is also a consequence of a saturated MMO market.	
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			Everyday cheap people come to the forum wanting the game to be F2P. Stop and go away. We don't want the game to be free so you can leech off it.	
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PSA:
 
The above post is a load of rubbish.
 
This game is most certainly being played. The author of said post probably logged on a pvp server in the middle of the night with blindfolds on.
 
Let not the F2P/B2P maffia deter you from playing this gem of an MMO!
 
See you in game!
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Just grabbed on to the trial to drop in for a wish:
 
Please....make it F2P or B2P. Soon.
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I logged into Entity today, at 1PM EST US time and it was a ghost town in leveling zones. I played for a time on a level 5, level 10, 15, and 20, and doubt I saw more than 20 players. Even the cities were barren of players. The most I saw in one place was 7 around crafting tables in the city. Are the only active zones the ones for level 50s?
 
I am really enjoying this game and am glad I've come back, however, it's lonely. I'm just hoping it was empty on a weekend afternoon because everyone was out with their Valentine?
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I logged into Entity today, at 1PM EST US time and it was a ghost town in leveling zones. I played for a time on a level 5, level 10, 15, and 20, and doubt I saw more than 20 players. Even the cities were barren of players. The most I saw in one place was 7 around crafting tables in the city. Are the only active zones the ones for level 50s?
 
I am really enjoying this game and am glad I've come back, however, it's lonely. I'm just hoping it was empty on a weekend afternoon because everyone was out with their Valentine?
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I'm going to call BS on that statement (Bold) I was in Thayd at 1 PM EST and it was wall to wall people. Stop telling lies you F2P leech.
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Please show where this game is not functional.
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Gee, where to begin? PvP, which is a good 50% of the game. A Group finder so bad that people still use LFG.
 
Other areas where the game falls short: no true endgame (raid) content for casual players, no fishing, no minipets, no minigames.
 
It's not hard to see why most people aren't paying a sub for it.
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I logged into Entity today, at 1PM EST US time and it was a ghost town in leveling zones. I played for a time on a level 5, level 10, 15, and 20, and doubt I saw more than 20 players. Even the cities were barren of players. The most I saw in one place was 7 around crafting tables in the city. Are the only active zones the ones for level 50s?
 
I am really enjoying this game and am glad I've come back, however, it's lonely. I'm just hoping it was empty on a weekend afternoon because everyone was out with their Valentine?
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{| class="blockquote"
I logged into Entity today, at 1PM EST US time and it was a ghost town in leveling zones. I played for a time on a level 5, level 10, 15, and 20, and doubt I saw more than 20 players. Even the cities were barren of players. The most I saw in one place was 7 around crafting tables in the city. Are the only active zones the ones for level 50s?
 
I am really enjoying this game and am glad I've come back, however, it's lonely. I'm just hoping it was empty on a weekend afternoon because everyone was out with their Valentine?
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			Game prob doesn't need f2p to stay alive after drop 4 the do or die patch which is turning out really nice, but faction balance is a really big issue Exiles are doing great population wise while dominion is down right awful so a lot of people are basing it off that. Population is growing overall, faction imbalance is the real issue. 	
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Think the admin of the great Wildstar site Readycheck.org just about sums it up, and it's nothing to do with F2P
 
Ok… let’s see:Carbine hat to transform from a development studio to a live studio, while being affected by layoffs in 3rd quarter 2014 and a change in lead management/ lead development (Gaffney, Frost, Mocarski, Shelton and several others left). Since then Donatelli, Jelinek and Moore took over. At this point (it was about September 2014) WildStar lost its most players because of the state of the core of the game, it's design philosophies regarding major systems like raids, warplots and the focus on the minority instead of the majority (hardcore vs. casuals). At this point the train stopped. It hasn’t slowed down... it actually stopped and no matter of how messy things were in WildStar, Carbine hat to fix its own issues inside its studio first, then rethink the long term goals, philosophies, designs and roadmaps and come up with a solution.It got clear, that the game was a mess. There were bugs all over the place, core systems were just poorly designed or not thought through and especially from an endgame point of view with long term motivation curves, RNG elements, gear gaps, (in)accessibility and basically every other major important aspect of nearly every system in place.So instead of having a good game, a stable core to build on and instead of working on content drops, new content and other nice things to ogle, carbine openly confessed, that just putting out content isn’t going to help. So they published several letters, interviews and vods explaining to the remains of the player base, that we will have to wait until carbine has solved the core issues, just so we can start waiting for the actual cool stuff.This waiting for a solution to a problem which shouldn’t exist in the first place, just to be able to wait for the actual stuff was the next major reason why many players left. Now we are in October 2014. Plans were looking good. Things were by far not done yet, but at least Carbine had a solid plan for the future and more importantly it was a realistic/healthy one. Megaservers were on its way to help the rest of the player base to enjoy the waiting time.Carbine then made the waiting even harder by pushing Content Drop #3 further and further back and by cancelling Christmas/Halloween events.... (We are still talking about fixing the core... nothing shiny yet).Finally with Content Drop #3 which was released in November Carbine was done cleaning up the core of the game. With Content Drop #3 WildStar was exactly the game, which everyone hoped or expected it to be when it was released in early June. So from June to November we got a battleground which was never played because of the messed up matchmaking, two grindy daily zones, a new zone (Blighthaven) which was fun for 1 day cause the rest of the zone was bugged or unenjoyable too.Biggest Problems of WildStar:Poor ItemizationCrafting Blues were best in slot Until Ohmna Gear / Legendary GearTotally broken Item Progression (dungeon gear, adventure gear) which let to no reason to go into any instance besides to-do the attunementRNG Rune Elements and Rune Counts on Items were the most stupid thing ever.The Rune System in general was badly designed (90% totally worthless runes, 10% totally must have op runes)PvP Itemization Gear Gaps were way offPvP Offense / Defense were totally worthlessAttack/Support Power Scaling was for each class different (depending on armor type) which let to huge balancing issues. Also Offensive Stances amplified that problem.Questing/Leveling was a pain in the ass, especially in groups when quest progress wasn’t benefitting the whole group.Accessibility of nearly every major eldergame system was way off and focused on hardcore players. Solo/Small-Group/Casual Players had nothing to-do besides doing daily quests.Bugs Bugs Bugs all over the placeBots were all over the place tooHousing was good but also very limited in several aspectsDecor Limit was lowLightning Limit was lowDecor Placement was restrictedPerformance Optimization was often lacking (depending on zone/instance)The existence of warplots was just a rumor.The Medal System for Dungeons/Adventures was counterproductive and really bad.Datascape was in Beta-StatePvP Rating system was a total messMany Class Abilities and Tier Upgrades were just stupid and therefore never used.Core-Ability Rotations were often too simple and repetitive (Warrior lol)Technologist had no Research TreeCustoms were not allowed in PvPDye System was often bugged and overpricedDoing Dungeons while leveling was not benefiting enough (for the time and skill effort)Doing anything but grinding while leveling was not benefiting enoughMount and Ability prices were too high during leveling. You often had to choose between ability/mount and something fun/usefulAttunement was... i guess you know what it was..Arkship was not skip able90% of that stuff was fixed with Content Drop #3, which also added a shitload of other stuff, tons of quality of life improvements and and and ...Sure Itemization was not perfect yet... the new rune system was only the first step... also pvp had still a lot of problems. Warplots are 30vs30 now but still needed a lot of work.... Content Drop #3 fixed the core of the game and made the game enjoyable again, it was no "everything is now perfect patch".Content Drop #3 as well as the transition of Carbine itself set the foundation for everything that would come next. Carbine also learned from previous mistakes and was now on the right path.The core was ok/good/enjoyable now... so let’s get finally to the good stuff. We are now speaking of Content Drop #4.Content Drop #4 Mega Overview:http://www.readycheck.org/en/forum/w...content-drop-4Content Drop #4 Update Notes:http://www.readycheck.org/en/forum/w...-update-notes/Content Drop #3 was maybe the most important drop for WildStar, but Content Drop #4 was by far the most exciting or most fun one. You can see at every single inch of the game, that things are now starting to get really awesome and epic and all the waiting was worth it.The most ridiculous and most fun housing system you will ever seeA good and motivating rune system as well as rune element/count distribution which makes sense to casual players as well as hardcore gamersItem progression that makes sense! (Leveling -> Shiphands -> Adventures -> Dungeons -> Raids)20 Player Raids only (and a finished version of Datascape which is one of the most amazing raid instance ever made in history of MMO’s (no kidding! - experienced everything including Avatus (eugenic sadface)I will stop now... cause counting all the awesome stuff like terrain changes, barber shop, veteran shiphands, ultimate protogames, daily/weekly/random quests that make sense and fun, complete token/currency revamp that makes sense and tons of other stuff, made WildStar to an actually really really awesome game, not only for hardcore gamers, but especially for players who love group content (3-20 players) while also delivering plenty of stuff for completely solo players (screw you this is an MMO!!! :P)Now as i am tired of writing comes the best part of all: A promising future!Carbine paid its dues, learned from mistakes, improved over time and finally has the right philosophy: serving the needs of the majority, focusing on small group/solo content while delivering also challenging content and systems for the hardcore minority.Is WildStar now the WoW Killer or a perfect MMO? No and it never will be!Is WildStar now enjoyable, fun and a really promising game to play for years: YES and i cannot even imagine all the shiny things coming in the near future (guild housing, contracts, halon ring, neighborhoods (combined housing plots of several players) .... and tons of other things.. (i really have to stop writing now)What is my biggest fear at the moment? That because of the long time which was needed to bring to game back on track and since the hardcore audience is not that important anymore my fear is, that carbine will not be able to deliver its T3 Raidcontent in time. (No T3 in 2015 would result in many hardcore players leaving the game) - and no... augmentors 20 (boss in a box) is not the T3 content. This may will be the case for the sake of the greater good. We will see if Carbine is able to hand out little pieces of challenging raidcontent to close the gap.Last but not least: Sorry for over 9000 spelling errors and other things that must confuse you. I'm no native english speaker and yes, normally i double and triple check all my writings but its 5:30AM now, i'm tired and really happy that i finally was able to write my little WildStar diary down.	
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			While a few games have pulled it off well (PoE is a great example), F2P is directly antithetical to the needs of the player. Why would developers spend time improving the game and adding REAL content when a new set of cosmetics and a sale will give more incentives for revenue? I would see F2P as an admission of defeat from Carbine, and a huge reason to jump ship.	
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Gee, where to begin? PvP, which is a good 50% of the game. A Group finder so bad that people still use LFG.
 
Other areas where the game falls short: no true endgame (raid) content for casual players, no fishing, no minipets, no minigames.
 
It's not hard to see why most people aren't paying a sub for it.
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PvP is functional. You can enter a battleground/arena and fight other people. Working as intended behaviour. That the classes are not balanced and that the gear needs a reward does not take away that you can pay PvP in this game. And as mentioned above, 50%? yeah sure thing....
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Well... it's functional at it's most basic core. The number one issue is population, at prime times there's only ~40 players at most queueing, and only for practice battle grounds.
 
Aside from population, there are several mechanics that function incredibly poorly in PvP, like the cleanse system. Their Refusal to balance PvP separately from PvE, is pretty huge also. Some of these things fall under class balance, but when it comes down to it they balance classes based on a raid setting, and just think that it's somehow going to work itself out in PvP, and a lot of times it doesn't. Blanket solutions like reduce all damage by x% are a terrible band-aid. The PvP stats themselves need reviewed again also, then there is the PvP gear itemization, which still hasn't been updated to reflect changes like SP/AP on items depending on role.
 
Most of the PvP modes lend themselves to "cheese builds" un-killable tank engi's with nearly infinte IA come to mind, and the objectives themselves deter actually PvP'ing, and just spamming your F key.
 
Arena's currently suffer from fear of losing rating, which is tied to gear (which will supposedly change in the future) but after that the ELO system is still a mess, and encourages win trading, and manipulation by queue'ing with a lower rated partner. Haven't got a rated anything to pop in almost 2 weeks now just for reference.
 
Overall PvP feels neglected, and players notice that really fast. We're supposed to be getting more fixes with the upcoming drop, and some in between then, and now. Still it's kind of hard to keep playing feeling like your chosen aspect of the game is always going to be at the bottom of the priorities list.
 
If PvP ever gets to where it needs to be in terms of things such as mechanics, and incentive to play it still needs a large player pool to be competitive, and the rating system is completely dependent on it. That's why PvP'ers have been advocating F2P, I don't even care about the sub one way or the other, it's just the game needs more players - specifically those that PvP.
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When wow launched there was only open world Pvp which had zero rewards or incentive. There was also no Pvp gear so the best pvpers were those in raid gear.
 
People gave wow years to develop with very little criticism but now people expect all new games to start at where wow and its 10 years of development currently is. That is, to start with multiple battlegrounds, arena, a rating system and Pvp gear... and that's just the Pvp side of things. When wow launched it didn't even have a single raid zone, but people expect all MMOs nowadays to have at least a couple raid zones to start with.
 
just give Carbine the same curtesy and patience we gave blizzard	
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Well... it's functional at it's most basic core. The number one issue is population, at prime times there's only ~40 players at most queueing, and only for practice battle grounds.
 
Aside from population, there are several mechanics that function incredibly poorly in PvP, like the cleanse system. Their Refusal to balance PvP separately from PvE, is pretty huge also. Some of these things fall under class balance, but when it comes down to it they balance classes based on a raid setting, and just think that it's somehow going to work itself out in PvP, and a lot of times it doesn't. Blanket solutions like reduce all damage by x% are a terrible band-aid. The PvP stats themselves need reviewed again also, then there is the PvP gear itemization, which still hasn't been updated to reflect changes like SP/AP on items depending on role.
 
Most of the PvP modes lend themselves to "cheese builds" un-killable tank engi's with nearly infinte IA come to mind, and the objectives themselves deter actually PvP'ing, and just spamming your F key.
 
Arena's currently suffer from fear of losing rating, which is tied to gear (which will supposedly change in the future) but after that the ELO system is still a mess, and encourages win trading, and manipulation by queue'ing with a lower rated partner. Haven't got a rated anything to pop in almost 2 weeks now just for reference.
 
Overall PvP feels neglected, and players notice that really fast. We're supposed to be getting more fixes with the upcoming drop, and some in between then, and now. Still it's kind of hard to keep playing feeling like your chosen aspect of the game is always going to be at the bottom of the priorities list.
 
If PvP ever gets to where it needs to be in terms of things such as mechanics, and incentive to play it still needs a large player pool to be competitive, and the rating system is completely dependent on it. That's why PvP'ers have been advocating F2P, I don't even care about the sub one way or the other, it's just the game needs more players - specifically those that PvP.
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			I'm convinced that most people asking for F2P/B2P are asking for it so they can say "See? Wildstar is a failure, do not touch with 50 foot pole."  And they don't actually want to play the game in the first place.	
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Everyday cheap people come to the forum wanting the game to be F2P. Stop and go away. We don't want the game to be free so you can leech off it.
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I don't understand why you guys think the sub system will work when all evidence points to the contrary. We've been leaking subs and losing population for months now why would expect that to change? Every other game has gone F2P or B2P by now because those companies understand the business. 
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http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/13/the-soapbox-hows-f2p-working-for-soe/
 
This article explains exactly why Free to play is not the answer.
 
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First of all, I asked where the game was non-functional.
 
PvP is functional. You can enter a battleground/arena and fight other people. Working as intended behaviour. That the classes are not balanced and that the gear needs a reward does not take away that you can pay PvP in this game. And as mentioned above, 50%? yeah sure thing....
Dungeon finder works quite okay for me actually for all the veteran runs. Just cause people don't use it doesn't mean it is non-functional.  not liking != not working
No true raid content for casuals? What the hell are you smoking? My guild is one of the most casuals on Jabbit, and we just set foot in DS for the first time. Not sure what more you want here
No fishing? It's a frigging sci-fi, the only fish you deal with are ikthians
minipets are coming
minigames? game has loads of them as challenges or quests.
So again, where is this game disfunctional?
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How about
 
No.
 
The game is technically buy to play anyways. Buy CREDD with in game gold.
GG game is now Buy to Play.
 
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Terrible logic... this thread is filled with it.
 
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This game is most certainly being played. 
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If we were losing population due to the sub fee then you might have a point. Show me one "Im quit" post where the poster specifically stated he was leaving cause of the sub fee
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You're completely missing the point. It's not the fact that people are leaving the game because there's a subscription fee, it's the fact that pretty much no one is coming to the game BECAUSE there's a subscription fee. Get it? Want proof? See: latest quarterly report.
 
 
Another person who actually gets it.
Now again depends on if they have the money they need to do what they want and grow and if you compare it to other things yup u will see issues. But other games have been bringing in less and are doing fine so we shall see. But to say "nothing can make it with a sub fee these days" isn't at all true.
 
 
If Wildstar's business model were so perfect, they'd be bringing in much more revenue and subscribers. However, they haven't. Whether the model is best FOR YOU, the customer, is irrelevant. The success of the model is dependent upon the success that the actual business is having, which in this case, is very little.
Now this is true numbers are true but the question really is are they bringing in enough to survive and do what they want. Some numbers say yes some say no. Keep in mind you don't have to bring in WOW money to keep a game going and growing. Though some think that and try and chase it which I think isn't always smart.
 
Yes, keep telling people to go away, which is exactly what people like you have done since the game was released. How's that working out for you? Oh yeah, there's only one server in the U.S. right now, that's how well it has worked out for you.
Now this one is a lil odd because when things first came out they didn't have that many servers to start with but there was a big cry for more more more and they did that. Now if this was smart who knows some say no some say yes. But servers get merged get opened get closed in many games. It happens.
 
Except, that's not the same thing as B2P. The game is still 1) advertised as a subscription model, 2) requires a subscription when you first start playing (when you can't afford CREDD), and 3) involves a business model (CREDD) that is completely unfamiliar to players from the outside looking in. People understand GW2's style of B2P. Wildstar's CREDD system is not nearly as obvious to those who don't already play.
True the model can be abit hard to figure out. I think many would be happy with gw2 style because many of the things you buy are just for looks and to speed things up for you. Now me personally I think that model is great. Those who want something that looks pretty can buy it without buying an uber weapon and killing everything vs people who actually worked to get it. Now I do think the CREED model is interesting and can aslo have some good things though you are correct if im reading right that it takes a min to explain.
 
 
Interesting. This game's PvP is terrible, and has a dwindling subscriber base. Yet you still seem to be one of those people who believes the PvP playerbase is trivial, despite evidence to the contrary.
No player base is trivial but these days people do seem to want everything at once and sometimes it just can't happen. Now there will be alot of pvp centered things coming which is good. Sometimes people have wait and thats not something we do these days. Now if the game will make it till these changes are made well we will see.
 
Is Wildstar competing with the WoW from 10 years ago, or the WoW of today? Your argument is completely irrelevant.
 
WoW also had 1) an established fan base due to their other games, and 2) released during a time where the MMO genre was stagnating.
True, they had some good timing and people already around from other games.
 
No, you're looking at it the wrong way. It's the fact that the subscription model scares people from coming in, not the fact that it forces people out.
Yes and No. There are a few games that have done fine with a sub model such as Eve. 
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			I mean it's either the business model or game difficulty that's holding us back. 	
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I want my console games to be F2P cause they're great, are they getting on that? All they have to do is add a ton of micro transactions and it'll be even better. :unsure:
 
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I mean it's either the business model or game difficulty that's holding us back. 
 
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http://massivelyop.net/2015/02/13/the-soapbox-hows-f2p-working-for-soe/
 
{| class="blockquote"
"Why are MMO companies so desperate, though? Well, it’s because there aren’t enough people playing these games. And why aren’t there? Well, because MMORPGs are in fact niche. They’re time consuming, they’re not particularly accessible when viewed against other game genres, and so on and so forth. In other words, there are a limited number of people in the world who are willing and able to play MMORPGs, and yet the post-2004 MMORPG industry thought it was a good idea to pump out game after game after game, all of them competing for what is essentially the same smallish playerbase." 
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It's amazing how people just claim the people that want P2P to stay are wrong when their own big argument is basically "F2P would make everything better!".
 
Lets face it, if there are so many people out here that don't play because of the sub, what would the point of F2P be? How would this benefit WS if these people don't want to pay anything anyway? The issue was never with P2P. Games like WoW and FF14 are still going strong. Both WS and ESO had massive initial sales, despite their P2P nature. What more proof do you want that the issue wasn't with P2P?
 
The reason people left was because the actual game was flawed. The reason PvP is dead is because PvP is massively flawed. How would F2P change any of this? Even if it's free, why would people PvP in WS when they can get better PvP in other games? The big argument off the F2P crowd is basically "well they would". In the end F2P doesn't fix any of the inherent flaws the game has. Heck the opposite, it slows the patches as the developers have to worry about producing "fluff" content that they can sell to fund the game.
 
Drop 4 has proven that people are willing to give WS a second chance when they fix the flaws and the population recently has been improving. With the upcoming PvP changes PvP will hopefully take a turn for the better as well. If, despite all Carbines efforts to fix things, the population is still looking grim, then you could make an argument for the issue being elsewhere. Currently though, I don't see how it's the P2P model that is failing.	
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It's amazing how people just claim the people that want P2P to stay are wrong when their own big argument is basically "F2P would make everything better!".
 
Lets face it, if there are so many people out here that don't play because of the sub, what would the point of F2P be? How would this benefit WS if these people don't want to pay anything anyway? The issue was never with P2P. Games like WoW and FF14 are still going strong. Both WS and ESO had massive initial sales, despite their P2P nature. What more proof do you want that the issue wasn't with P2P?
 
The reason people left was because the actual game was flawed. The reason PvP is dead is because PvP is massively flawed. How would F2P change any of this? Even if it's free, why would people PvP in WS when they can get better PvP in other games? The big argument off the F2P crowd is basically "well they would". In the end F2P doesn't fix any of the inherent flaws the game has. Heck the opposite, it slows the patches as the developers have to worry about producing "fluff" content that they can sell to fund the game.
 
Drop 4 has proven that people are willing to give WS a second chance when they fix the flaws and the population recently has been improving. With the upcoming PvP changes PvP will hopefully take a turn for the better as well. If, despite all Carbines efforts to fix things, the population is still looking grim, then you could make an argument for the issue being elsewhere. Currently though, I don't see how it's the P2P model that is failing.
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Don't tell them their logic is flawed, you're going to make them angry.
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It's amazing how people just claim the people that want P2P to stay are wrong when their own big argument is basically "F2P would make everything better!".
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I'm sorry, but do you not understand basic capitalism? How, exactly, do you think companies measure the success of a business model? Don't worry, I'll tell you: how successful (profitable) it is. Guess what kind of business model has proven to be most profitable? B2P/F2P. Notice how a game, such as GW2, brings in much more revenue than Wildstar, even though Wildstar has a subscription model. Whether you think the model is exploitative is irrelevant; it's proven to work, and that is all businesses care about. Gaming companies are a business, and games are their source of revenue. 
 
So, sorry to burst your bubble, but F2P is in fact a successful business model.
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F2P has proven to be successful within a limited scope. F2P is successful in the mobile gaming market, e-sport and within the Asian market. Hence why you see many companies shifting into mobile gaming. 
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People, this is going back and forth with no end in sight: "F2P is the best", "no, B2P!!", "pfft, $2P is the way"... no one is going to change their mind ... BUT ... The game is in REAL trouble. To deny this is wishful thinking.
 
The "real" problem (as I see it) is the way the game is perceived. Web sites are reporting how "horrible" the game is doing ... most posts outside of this site are all doom and gloom, even when its a good story. The general MMO population is looking at WS as already failed. People flee a sinking ship; they don't try to get on board.
 
The problem is simple... too many people are leaving the game and not enough are coming to it (.... or back). The question is "What is Carbine going to do about this?" . They have to do something. - but what? This is the million dollar question.
How to get new money/players to the servers.
 
I'm not a big fan of F2P myself but it does bring in income, which is what WS needs. If it keeps bleeding subs the way it is the game will shutdown. Everyone screaming about how F2P will hurt the community: if money doesnt start showing up in the boardroom meetings, this community won't be able to login to see if the game is being hurt by that F2P crowd.
 
Honestly, I have no clue how to create new momentum for Wildstar ... luckily, this isn't my job. My job in WS is to be a gamer, which I hope I at least a little proficient at. For me, Wildstar has lost the "Multi" in MMORPG; its still Massive, but I would love it to get its "Multi" back. Its really all thats missing.	
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I will disagree in the assessment that the game is in real trouble. I believe it was in real trouble after Drop 2. At this point things seem to be trending upward at a consistent pace. In this MMO saturated market it is hard to see quick growth in MMO games outside of release.
 
The real concern is whether NCsoft is in it for the long term investment or for the quick buck. If NCsoft is in it for a quick buck they will seek to go f2p and capitalize as much as they can. If they are in it for the long run they will patiently wait for the game to develop (All MMO's need time to establish themselves in the market and get polished). I believe that is the important question.
 
However, I do agree that one of the big problems that this game is facing is how the game is perceived by the outside and by websites. At this point, Wildstar is a trendy game to hate on. Unfortunately nothing to be done about that but wait until that trend passes by (it will, the trolls will be fewer although they will always be there). Once it is less popular to hate on it, the 'reporting' on gaming websites will be more favorable and it will be a better time to put forth an advertising campaign.
 
Carbine is doing something about it, there was a major shift in direction from Drop 2 to Drop 3 as far as focus and content updates. Drop 4 further polished it and has been a fairly successful drop with the community. What Carbine can do at the moment is continue working on it, wait until the bad PR storm calms down and then make another push putting forth a more developed Wildstar. A good question to ask yourself is "do I believe this is a quality MMO?" If the answer is yes then you are in the right place. The people that jump ship because of bad PR will be jumping with the trends anyhow, the ones that jumped because of specific problems will come back once those problems are addressed (unless they can find a better options). Honestly though, I can't think of a better MMO that I would rather be playing.
 
The problem lies with NCsoft and how they will approach the game, however if they give up on it too quickly they will have a huge gaming PR problem at their hands (considering their history). To embellish it a bit, Wildstar is the golden ticket for NCsoft to redeem themselves and regain some faith of the gaming community. Whether they are interested on that or not is a whole other question.	
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Just grabbed on to the trial to drop in for a wish:
 
Please....make it F2P or B2P. Soon.
Add RIFT-like instant adventures.
Add world PvP incentives.
Improve mentoring.
 
I love WS, or I love what it would be with people playing.
 
That's all, hope to be back.
 
Chuwie
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I don't know if F2P will make this game more successful, just like I don't know if adding a casual group finder ready raid will bring more players, but if it does then I'm ok with it. This game is to fantastic to have to kind of population that it does, even people running un-premaid groups has dropped two weeks after drop 4. I just want to see this game stick around and I want the hard working people that make this game to have good paying jobs. 
 
I think one thing keeping this game from getting new people in is how unfriendly alting is and how little incentive there is for level 50's to run lower level content. 
 
Barriers to content are a waste of time, having to unlock adventures and dungeons by running to them, and an attunement quest that keeps people from being able to start raiding is a bad idea. Anything that keeps players away from content isn't a great idea. Al ot of so called hardcore players bailed during the silver dungeon attunment and we have yet to get those players back. They are back in WoW enjoying the group finder and already attuned character for harder content. 
 
I just want to see more players in and less even if small barriers to content. Un-Soulbound items on the elder gem vendor would also be nice. I'd love to be able to send amp, ability points to characters I am trying to build up. 	
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Terrible logic... this thread is filled with it.
 
 
Yes, it's certainly being played.. by very few people. Quarterly reports don't lie, and before you ask, yes, revenue from subs is included in the quarterly report.
 
 
 
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F2P is not a more successful business model, it is an exploitative one. What F2P does (or ends up doing) is it allows the company to gather more money from a smaller player base within a larger player pool.
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*snip*
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Another person who fails to understand the fact that F2P is successful from a business perspective, which is all that matters; your bias as a customer is completely irrelevant. LOTRO is a shining example because it was very successful once it transitioned to the F2P model. Any perceived decrease in quality from your perspective means nothing when they studio is bringing in exponentially more revenue. You've also, apparently, failed to grasp the simple reality that the P2P model has failed for this game, and if it remains as is, Carbine will either 1) cut a significant amount of its staff due to the unsustainable revenue, or 2) shut down the game. Quarterly reports are pretty simple to find, I suggest looking into it.
 
Carbine is in this for themselves, not for you. Sometimes I can't tell if you people want this game to actually succeed, or if you'd rather it keep the subscription model until it shuts down for your own sakes, since you all apparently can't bear the thought of "F2P people" invading your precious, dying game.
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^ shhhhhh people here don't want to do the math and realise just how few subs the game has.  They want to rally around the NO FREE TO PLAY flag and tell each other everything is going to be fine.
 
The game tanked and is in trouble. Free 2 play or an outright shutdown is in Wildstar future. I dislike the free to play model but it is inevitable. Sadly, I don't think free 2 play will save WIldstar, as others have rightly pointed out, its not the business model that made people leave it's the game itself. I don't mean to be hating on Wildstar, I love the game but I am not that blind that I can't see the writing on the wall.
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Working in the F2P business, I can tell you that actually you're the one who fails to understand how unsuccessful this businessmodel is.
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How about
 
No.
 
The game is technically buy to play anyways. Buy CREDD with in game gold.
GG game is now Buy to Play.
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			Well when we start insulting each other rather than talk about the issue yeah time to lock it up. I think the thread has run its course anyway. Not even the OP cared that much lol.	
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Hey everyone -
 
I've gone ahead and cleaned up this thread. Let's keep it respectful and nice so that we don't have to lock it up. If you're unfamiliar as to what is respectful or nice, please refer to the Code of Conduct linked in my signature.
 
Thanks folks,
Team WildStar	
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Probably.
 
Doesn't matter what the truth is, or what the numbers show; people will perceive reality the way they want it to be regardless.
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Well when we start insulting each other rather than talk about the issue yeah time to lock it up. I think the thread has run its course anyway. Not even the OP cared that much lol.
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The game has been out 8 - 9 months now, you are not going to see the amount of people in the leveling zones that there was at launch. ALL MMO's have this problem. all of them. MMO's are by there very nature, top heavy games. Except for that brief launch period the majority of players are going to be at level cap. As for the cities being empty.. did you try Thayd? I have been on for hours and Thayd is full of people.
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Meh each to his own free country. Everyone can have an opinion. No need to insult people over it. People are free to disagree without getting nasty.
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True, I'll cut down on the nastiness.
 
However, I will say that there's a difference between reasonable opinions and other opinions. Some of the opinions here don't have any real foundation.
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Sorry but not true at all.  SW:ToR and WoW actually have people in all leveling zones.  WoW has been out 10 years and ToR a few years now.  8-9 months is still fairly new.  So no need to make excuses.  The population on WS is low.  We aren't saying the game is bad.  I have stated a few zones I was in which is the 30's and saw 2 whole people in Biodome 3 and a couple of the opposing faction in the zone I am in now.  But WoW recently made an alt and every zone had people to where I had to wait for stuff to spawn.  ToR seems like there are always people leveling.
 
But again, I do like the game and it is a very nice change in most aspects especially not having the whole orcs/humans magic, swords and shields stuff (well you know what I mean) and having another sci-fi mmo.  Having empty leveling zones means people I guess aren't making alts and not a lot of new people.  Of course the major cities and max level spots will have people in them.  That is a given.
 
I play at peak times too when I do so I tend to go off of what I actually see and experience vs some people saying, "I see tons of people in all zones".
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Sorry but not true at all.  SW:ToR and WoW actually have people in all leveling zones.  WoW has been out 10 years and ToR a few years now.  8-9 months is still fairly new.  So no need to make excuses.  The population on WS is low.  We aren't saying the game is bad.  I have stated a few zones I was in which is the 30's and saw 2 whole people in Biodome 3 and a couple of the opposing faction in the zone I am in now.  But WoW recently made an alt and every zone had people to where I had to wait for stuff to spawn.  ToR seems like there are always people leveling.
 
But again, I do like the game and it is a very nice change in most aspects especially not having the whole orcs/humans magic, swords and shields stuff (well you know what I mean) and having another sci-fi mmo.  Having empty leveling zones means people I guess aren't making alts and not a lot of new people.  Of course the major cities and max level spots will have people in them.  That is a given.
 
I play at peak times too when I do so I tend to go off of what I actually see and experience vs some people saying, "I see tons of people in all zones".
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I come back here to check in every now and again while my CREDD sub is still going (one more month).
 
Very true that other games which have been out for a while still have vibrant leveling zones. Guild Wars 2 has people running all over in most of the zones and that's been out for years now.
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Carbine may be in this only for the money, but I'm only in it for the fun. If it goes F2P then it's the same as shutting down from my perspective.
 
It's hard for me to think that they developed and released something as polished and good as Protogames if the situation is as dire as some are saying.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I come back here to check in every now and again while my CREDD sub is still going (one more month).
 
Very true that other games which have been out for a while still have vibrant leveling zones. Guild Wars 2 has people running all over in most of the zones and that's been out for years now.
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Wildstar provides no reason for anyone to ever return to a leveling zone. This is a big issue with the game. Rift solved this brilliantly with the artifact system for people to explore the whole world.
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Sorry but not true at all.  SW:ToR and WoW actually have people in all leveling zones.  WoW has been out 10 years and ToR a few years now.  8-9 months is still fairly new.  So no need to make excuses.  The population on WS is low.  We aren't saying the game is bad.  I have stated a few zones I was in which is the 30's and saw 2 whole people in Biodome 3 and a couple of the opposing faction in the zone I am in now.  But WoW recently made an alt and every zone had people to where I had to wait for stuff to spawn.  ToR seems like there are always people leveling.
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Not even the OP cared that much lol.
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			OP, what level did you get to before you started declaring this game is not populated? Or are you in leveling zones where it is known that there are not a lot of people.	
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I really do.
 
You know: scr*w F2P - if there's another business model that will keep WS afloat, I'd be all for it. I'll pay a sub for any game as good as WS, if it has a healthy population!
 
But it just doesn't, no matter how much some people have been in denial since about the first exodus two weeks after launch.
 
If you don't agree, that's fine. No need for insults, irrational white-knighting and anti-F2P rants. If you really think NCSoft/Carbine haven't been seriously looking into that possibility, I'd say you crossed the red line from denial into delusion.
 
Love you all for your passion for the game. Let's hope it can somehow grow beyond holding on for dear life, which it currently is.
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Too many conversations about Wildstar's population issues (which, to be fair, are often greatly exaggerated) jump immediately to F2P arguments.
 
I think these discussions should focus on the fundamental issues with the game that caused people to leave in the first place. Let's not forget that it had a very successful launch, demonstrating that there wasn't a lack of interest in Wildstar and all that it advertised (its combat paradigms, aesthetic, subscription/CREDD model, different content for different playstyles, etc...), it just had retention issues.
 
Carbine has done a great job with tracking down these problems and ironing them out one-by-one. Let's face it, If the game had launched in the state that it is now, we probably would not have lost as many players.
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If you don't agree, that's fine. No need for insults, irrational white-knighting and anti-F2P rants. If you really think NCSoft/Carbine haven't been seriously looking into that possibility, I'd say you crossed the red line from denial into delusion.
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yeah drop 4 is actually the first drop since launch that had a positive impact on the game.
 
not saying that sabotage and omnicore were shit. (especially with how much they said omnicore was going to be a game changer and was worth the wait). but yeah they were SHIT; boring daily zones and a stupid instance and a pvp map (thx for it, but pvp was so broken you did not have to bother). the runes in d3 was ok i guess.
Carbine should have played it a lot safer with the first few drops while they work on reacting to the game's issues.
 
drop 4 is actually something.
 
hopefully they have it all nailed out now and Drop 2 and 3 were just relic of older design mentalities that plagued wildstar since birth.
 
 
anyway.. its always like that.
it takes 1 year for these games to "nail it".
 
swtor took 1y and went f2p/hybrid
eso took 1y and now goes b2p
ff14 took 1y and needed a reboot
 
thats the nature of things. and wildstar is maybe slightly more handicapped than the aforementioned games for different reasons (IP, Size, Budget, Experienced leads etc). But there is no reason to believe they won't be able to hit their 1y mark in an epic way! go guys go!!	
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yeah drop 4 is actually the first drop since launch that had a positive impact on the game.
 
not saying that sabotage and omnicore were shit. (especially with how much they said omnicore was going to be a game changer and was worth the wait). but yeah they were SHIT; boring daily zones and a stupid instance and a pvp map
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Omnicore was a waste of time. Adding solo instances in an mmo is an exercise in stupidity, especially given that there are games with better solo (and small scale multiplayer) content and combat like monster hunter, which also doesnt cost a monthly sub.
 
The main strength of any mmo lies in its ability to bring players together, especially through content. Currently WoW, FF14, GW2 and many other mmos do this a lot better than Wildstar does. Drop 5 will bring alot more people to the group content but I fear it's too little too late.
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Omnicore was a waste of time. Adding solo instances in an mmo is an exercise in stupidity, especially given that there are games with better solo (and small scale multiplayer) content and combat like monster hunter, which also doesnt cost a monthly sub.
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{| class="blockquote"
Omnicore was a waste of time. Adding solo instances in an mmo is an exercise in stupidity, especially given that there are games with better solo (and small scale multiplayer) content and combat like monster hunter, which also doesnt cost a monthly sub.
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many people play MMO's solo. it is a fact. Ominicore is probably enjoyed by just as many, if not more people than Datascape and GA. Carbine does very good solo and small group instances, I would hope they would continue to do so. The idea that MMO means must be in a group to play needs to die. A large proportion of the the genres players just don't play MMO's that way and their is a lot more to MMO's than group up or GTFO.
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People that want to play solo games will (and are) playing single player games, which aren't limited by the technical limitations of an mmo engine. Charging people £9/$15 a month to play a single player content with dumbed down combat and boss fights is not a good way to make money (see exibit A, WildStar) and if you dont make money you go out of business.
 
The main strength of an mmo compared to other games is that it puts all of its players in the same world so that they can play together. To that end, they need to make sure that the game encourages all of its players to group up and play with other players at every possible moment. You have to constantly encourage players to interact with other players and the more the better, make them feel part of a huge world where they're always amongst company where they can make new friends. Single player content is an direct contradiction of that. You will notice that one of the main complaints from new players is that there is no one else around, that's because WildStar doesn't do a good enough job at getting people to play together (and don't say it's the players fault, other mmo's manage it fine) Omni core one is the casual players answer to playing single player raid content, which is stupid when they could be doing what other mmo's is doing and just creating content that every player can play. To make matters worse Omnicore is content that took 3 months to develop yet, can be finished in under an hour with little to no incentive to do it again. It's just bad, period.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
The main strength of an mmo compared to other games is that it puts all of its players in the same world so that they can play together. To that end, they need to make sure that the game encourages all of its players to group up and play with other players at every possible moment. You have to constantly encourage players to interact with other players and the more the better, make them feel part of a huge world where they're always amongst company where they can make new friends.
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Another person who fails to understand the fact that F2P is successful from a business perspective, which is all that matters; your bias as a customer is completely irrelevant. 
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Bullcrap. We customers are one half of the commerce equation, and our input counts for a LOT. We do not have to just roll over and let companies adopt horribly consumer-unfriendly practices just because it makes "business sense".
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Your "input" means nothing if it doesn't bring in more revenue, and your opinion means less than nothing if it lacks substance.
 
No, you don't have to "roll over" and let Wildstar go F2P; too bad that's irrelevant, because plenty of people will, and enough of those people will make impulse purchases to cover whatever revenue was lost from your subscription. Taking a stand with your wallet would be more meaningful if F2P doesn't work out for Carbine. However, all of the available evidence suggests that it will work out, since pretty much every known MMO that has switched to B2P/F2P has ended up being more successful than it was before.
 
The results from Rift, SW:ToR, GW and GW2 don't lie. NCSoft's quarterly report doesn't lie. I'm sorry if you're emotionally invested in this game's payment model, but all of the available evidence shows that it's not working. Unless this game gets a substantial increase in subscribers (no, I'm not talking about the 20 extra people you see in Thayd), which is pretty much unheard of outside of expansion releases, F2P/B2P is a matter of when, not if. 
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How are all those group quests in blighthaven, grim vault  etc working out.. oh that's right nearly everybody skips them. you are right that the main strength of an MMO is that it puts lots of players in the same world but wrong in them all wanting to have to group together. Does the phrase playing alone together sound familiar?
 
A game that encourages/forces  players to group up and play with other players at every possible moment is an archaic, outdated MMO. It is a design that most MMO's got rid of years ago for good reason. A good MMO caters to many playstyles and a popular playstyle is to enjoy being part of a giant online gameworld and going it alone in that world.
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{| class="blockquote"
The results from Rift, SW:ToR, GW and GW2 don't lie. NCSoft's quarterly report doesn't lie. I'm sorry if you're emotionally invested in this game's payment model, but all of the available evidence shows that it's not working. Unless this game gets a substantial increase in subscribers (no, I'm not talking about the 20 extra people you see in Thayd), which is pretty much unheard of outside of expansion releases, F2P/B2P is a matter of when, not if. 
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