143142-dont-make-the-game-easier

== Content ==
			I've seen a lot of posts out there from people talking about how the game is too hard, or unintuitive, or some other overt rationalization. My problem with that is if the game does get easier to play I won't have anything to look forward to. I've spent so much time playing other MMOs, constantly searching for a game that has at least some degree of difficulty and have been disappointed over and over again with the selection available. With Wildstar going f2p I can say that if content is made more accessible and easier for the broader public then I will no longer play this game due to being completely unsatisfied with the lack of difficulty. It's unforunate that a bunch of skill-less new players are taking the lime-light of opinion and risking the possibility of this game being completely ruined by gimped veteren dungeons and raids. If you have concerns with how difficult it is then perhaps you should go play another game, but please do not ruin it for us who like a good challenge. And don't give me the whole "it's not a challange, it just doesn't make sense" argument, because that's not an excuse. It DOES make sense, you are just bad at video games. So again, please don't ruin this game by making it easily accessable and easy to complete. Challenging content is what is lacking in the MMO world and we should not be getting rid of it for casuals who do not represent the community that has kept this game alive.	
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But ... it's not a challenge.
 
It just doesn't make sense .
 
 ;)	
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Signed!
 
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I've seen a lot of posts out there from people talking about how the game is too hard, or unintuitive, or some other overt rationalization. My problem with that is if the game does get easier to play I won't have anything to look forward to. I've spent so much time playing other MMOs, constantly searching for a game that has at least some degree of difficulty and have been disappointed over and over again with the selection available. With Wildstar going f2p I can say that if content is made more accessible and easier for the broader public then I will no longer play this game due to being completely unsatisfied with the lack of difficulty. It's unforunate that a bunch of skill-less new players are taking the lime-light of opinion and risking the possibility of this game being completely ruined by gimped veteren dungeons and raids. If you have concerns with how difficult it is then perhaps you should go play another game, but please do not ruin it for us who like a good challenge. And don't give me the whole "it's not a challange, it just doesn't make sense" argument, because that's not an excuse. It DOES make sense, you are just bad at video games. So again, please don't ruin this game by making it easily accessable and easy to complete. Challenging content is what is lacking in the MMO world and we should not be getting rid of it for casuals who do not represent the community that has kept this game alive.
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Huh.. want a challenge? disable all telegraphs.
Don't use any boosts or healing items, heck go raid without healers..
Lot's of ways to challenge yourself as you can see.  :P	
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			content can be challenging AND accessible at the same time. - if party finder warned you that you should be entering vet dungeons with at least iLvl 60 gear (not enforcing, warning), a lot of new people would turn around and go "oh, okay!" and the runs overall would be smoother.- if the repair costs were less people were less afraid of trying.- if we had more shorter raid instances, more people wouldn't fear trying raiding (FFXIV instances every boss separately, making you not need to re-clear mobs/ bosses before practicing a boss with your group).etcthese QL improvements don't influence the difficulty of the content itself. I like challenging content. But it makes it accessible.	
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Difficulty and accessibility are not the same thing, although often poor accessibility creates unnecessary difficulty.
 
There's nothing wrong with difficult combat mechanics, difficult puzzles, difficult challenges etc.
 
There's everything wrong with poor accessibility. Things like a clunky UI, cluttered visuals, opaque dialogues, confusing information on screen, excessive reliance on RNG and so on.
 
Wildstar suffers a lot from poor accessibility. Fix some of these issues and the game can remain challenging without being frustrating.	
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content can be challenging AND accessible at the same time. 
 
- if party finder warned you that you should be entering vet dungeons with at least iLvl 60 gear (not enforcing, warning), a lot of new people would turn around and go "oh, okay!" and the runs overall would be smoother.
- if the repair costs were less people were less afraid of trying.
- if we had more shorter raid instances, more people wouldn't fear trying raiding (FFXIV instances every boss separately, making you not need to re-clear mobs/ bosses before practicing a boss with your group).
etc
 
these QL improvements don't influence the difficulty of the content itself. I like challenging content. But it makes it accessible.
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Personally i don't care as long as bosses keep being as fun as Stormtalon.
I wonder if the Dominion equivalent is just as fun.	
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Personally i don't care as long as bosses keep being as fun as Stormtalon.
I wonder if the Dominion equivalent is just as fun.
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			Yes. Please cater the game to the tiny portion of the MMO player base that wants, or thinks they want, the game to punitively difficult. It worked out so well the first time Carbine did this.  :rolleyes:	
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I don't care as long the game doesn't put me to sleep.  So far, in my first day back after a long sabbatical, it's definitely keeping me awake:  1 wrong build error and 3 disconnects and I haven't even completed one quest or set foot in my house.  Perfect.
 
I think I'll go get breakfast before I get any more salty.
			
				
	Edited October 14, 2015 by AquaClamp	
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The game's difficulty is good the way it is, but the game could be much more accessible while retaining the same difficulty. Basically in the ways mirta000 already mentioned.
 
There should also be more guidance on what to do at max level. Right now, it only tells you that a whole bunch of features were unlocked but not what they are and what order you should do them in. Some sort of unintrusive guide (like the tutorials that pop up) or UI hints (such as ilevel recommendations) would really help. As it is, people queue for veteran dungeons immediately, despite them being too difficult for them to complete yet. This makes people think the game is harder than it's supposed to be, and possibly even quit playing at that point.	
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Difficulty and accessibility are not the same thing, although often poor accessibility creates unnecessary difficulty.
 
There's nothing wrong with difficult combat mechanics, difficult puzzles, difficult challenges etc.
 
There's everything wrong with poor accessibility. Things like a clunky UI, cluttered visuals, opaque dialogues, confusing information on screen, excessive reliance on RNG and so on.
 
Wildstar suffers a lot from poor accessibility. Fix some of these issues and the game can remain challenging without being frustrating.
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Here is the problem with threads like this .... your opinion doesn't matter.
 
NCSOFT will tell Carbine to do whatever they feel will bring in the money. If things don't stay as they are now and Wildstar doesn't stay financially viable then the next step will be nerfs to everything to appeal to the masses. The other option, if the game doesn't remain financially viable, is to close the servers down. Anyone that knows NCSOFT knows they have no problem at all doing that. 
 
If things stay as they are now you will be fine, if things drop off again then expect the game to be simplified. 
 
The one thing to note in all this, when it comes to the big business decisions, none of our opinions matter. All that matter is they do what they need to do to keep that money coming in. If that means turning this into Hello Wildstar Kitty then that is what will happen.
 
Asking for nerfs won't work but neither will asking them to keep things like they are. It all boils down to whatever brings the most money in.	
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I agree.
 
But I want a gear check for each pve instance so that new players understand the gearing process. If they see that vet dungeons require a certain ilevel they are more likely to gear in adventures first. (aside from the fact that expeditions/adventures are good practice to just get used to dodging telegraphs)	
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Carbine, I agree. Do not remove challenging content.
 
But you may want to consider content that exists in multiple versions of difficulty that scale their rewards as appropriate to risk vs. reward paradigms.
This would, IMO, keep you from being restricted to the tiny playerbase that thrives on extreme challenge, while still retaining that extremely challenging content in all its glory for those who want to enjoy it.	
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actually, because, just thinking.
 
We really need to do something to make adventures more rewarding. Making them a gearing stepping stone is good but, maybe make it more obvious that that's what they do?
 
I think something super useful would be the ability to queue for adventures and dungeons at the same time.
 
I know this is kind of off topic, but if we think of vet adventures as easier than vet dungeons (plus different format) than that is something that people can do if dungeons are too challenging. Maybe even offer better gear. As long as you still need to complete dungeons to raid, having more gear in adventures should just up their completion rate?
 
idk. I love adventures but it's hard when not enough people queue for them. 
edit to add: vet adventures that is. I've been having good luck getting decent queue times for leveling adventures, but I think that's just cause we have so many levelers right now
			
				
	Edited October 14, 2015 by Kezra	
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We really need to do something to make adventures more rewarding. Making them a gearing stepping stone is good but, maybe make it more obvious that that's what they do?
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the game is too easy for me already and it was before.
 
 
in final fantasy xi I had to get 3 higher level people just to walk me to the main city and make it alive and it took an hour the entire game was scary as hell.   here I can walk hoverboard or take a taxi at level 7 if  I wanted.
 
I get no thrill that I am going to die because there is nothing there and the penalty is nothing if I do die.
			
				
	Edited October 14, 2015 by Cubical	
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content can be challenging AND accessible at the same time. 
 
- if party finder warned you that you should be entering vet dungeons with at least iLvl 60 gear (not enforcing, warning), a lot of new people would turn around and go "oh, okay!" and the runs overall would be smoother.
- if the repair costs were less people were less afraid of trying.
- if we had more shorter raid instances, more people wouldn't fear trying raiding (FFXIV instances every boss separately, making you not need to re-clear mobs/ bosses before practicing a boss with your group).
etc
 
these QL improvements don't influence the difficulty of the content itself. I like challenging content. But it makes it accessible.
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Yes. Please cater the game to the tiny portion of the MMO player base that wants, or thinks they want, the game to punitively difficult. It worked out so well the first time Carbine did this.  :rolleyes:
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Do people just not rune at all currently? Gear has some impact as far as assault power/support power but it's mostly all about the rune stats that are added into the gear. In other words, "you can only enter with ilvl60 gear" wouldn't really mean anything.
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at iLvl 70 to 80 it's still real difficult to heal. iLvl 60 runed is pretty much the bare minimum. I said not to outright not allow people to enter content, because some can do it at a lower iLvl, but it's tough.
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I'm just pointing out how pointless ilvl is currently, I do more dps on my ilvl60 alt with runes than someone with no runes in ilvl100s. Regarding healing, it's just a limit to their focus as far as I know that makes it difficult currently.
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But it's not as pointless as you make out. Because ilvl does give a rough estimation of where the person is in progression. If a person has ilvl60, then that person is likely either an alt who knows what's going on, or a new player who needs a little guidance. A player with ilvl 100 should have enough experience to judge for himself what makes sense.
 
Thus, a warning pop up for people with low ilvls would help, even if it's not a great judge of effectiveness.
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What would help is some kind of forced rune education for level 50s, at least in my opinion. Ilvl60 warning crap or not, I've done dungeons all week and every dungeon I pug I'm bound to have 2 runeless dps 1 runeless healer and 1 runeless tank to carry,
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			I think the only quest that explains runes is one in the very initial areas. But even then it's just 'this is how you equip runes' and doesn't go into further detail.Another, more detailed quest at level 50 along with something to guide people more directly into what is the intended gearing path would help a lot, I believe. I've seen quite a few people asking in /advice and /zone chats about what they should do now that they are 50.	
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			Oh I know it. I'm 50 now and I haven't even started trying to Rune "properly" because there is so little good information out there, and I don't wanna end up having to spend a crapload of gold to fix a mistake.	
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Well, by and large most MMOs don't go into great explanations of this kind of stuff. The problem is, in most MMOs stuff like runes are a "boost", not "core to performance".
 
They made runes such a big deal that they need to be explained in detail.
 
They made gear simple by putting easy stats on it. But then that gear is ineffective unless you understand the deep runing system. LOL.
 
I even experienced this at level 20. As a healer I was focus depleted. I put a few cheap runes in my gear (oh no I didn't!) and now I have an endless supply of focus!
 
TBH, I actually enjoy the rune system. I even enjoy how much tweaking it can add to your performance. But I'm not sure it's good for the game.	
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Oh yeah, I really, really like the concept of Runes and I was even finally pretty good at the old system - and even then it was practically required for semi-optimal performance.
 
And I get that "Rune Sets" are now PER PIECE and not across all your gear. That's cool, too.
 
I just wish there was an easy, step-by-step, let-me-use-small-words explanation somewhere.
 
I'll give the WoW Community mad props on that. Blizzard makes a change and within two days there are twenty videos on Youtube explaining it.	
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What would help is some kind of forced rune education/a pack of cheap runes for level 50s, at least in my opinion. Ilvl60 warning crap or not, I've done dungeons all week and every dungeon I pug I'm bound to have 2 runeless dps 1 runeless healer and 1 runeless tank to carry.
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Part of the issue with runes is that players who are vets may not be optimally runed, but they at least got tokens they can redeem for runes.
 
What running around I've done with characters while leveling, I haven't seen many runes or rune fragments drop. I would guess that new players aren't runing up at anywhere near the rate as the vets because they're finding runes unnecessary and hard to come by while leveling when they don't really need it--and then when they hit 50, those behavioral patterns have been getting them by for quite some time.	
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The simple version of runes is this:
 
-Add runes to your gear based on color. Each color is going to determine what rune works best. You can't put the exact same run into the same piece of gear.
 
-Fusion runes can go into any color, but must go into the specified type of gear (it will say on the rune what gear you can put it in).
 
-If you want a little more customization, then you can change the colors to more suitable so you can stack the stats you want
 
-If you want to step into the min/max pool, you can use runes that work together to give bonuses in the forums of "sets". To get this bonus, items in a set must be in the same piece of gear. You can have the same set (except for class sets) in multiple pieces of gear and the bonuses will stack. Plan well, because as mentioned above, you can't put the same rune twice in the same piece of gear. You *can* however, put multiple levels of the same type of rune in piece of gear. So you could put a high crit hit and a superb crit hit of the same set into the same piece of gear.
 
-if you want to go deeper into the min/max pool, you can go for the exceptional version of the sets, which give you two points (rather than just one). This allows you to get more set values, and even stack multiple sets onto one piece of gear. You can also put a one point and a two point of a rune set into the same piece of gear. So you could put a two point superb crit and a one point superb crit of the same set into the same piece of gear.
 
-if you REALLY want to min/mix, you need to find out what your target stats are for the content you are doing (for example, for DPS you'd look at strikethrough) and your class (are you crit, or a multi-hit class), where the dminishing returns are, and plan out the set so you push your most powerful stats as high as they can go without incurring DR, and then maximize the next stats in line. This requires a lot of in depth tweaking and planning, and can get very expensive.
 
There you have it :)	
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			Also redvelvetninjas.com has great resources for rune theorycrafting post f2p launch.  The also have some semblance of class guides and builds for some classes.  They also have a quick helpful video to briefly go over the new rune system.  Literally the only place I have found that was a one stop shop to help with most things I needed.	
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I've seen a lot of posts out there from people talking about how the game is too hard, or unintuitive, or some other overt rationalization. My problem with that is if the game does get easier to play I won't have anything to look forward to. I've spent so much time playing other MMOs, constantly searching for a game that has at least some degree of difficulty and have been disappointed over and over again with the selection available. With Wildstar going f2p I can say that if content is made more accessible and easier for the broader public then I will no longer play this game due to being completely unsatisfied with the lack of difficulty. It's unforunate that a bunch of skill-less new players are taking the lime-light of opinion and risking the possibility of this game being completely ruined by gimped veteren dungeons and raids. If you have concerns with how difficult it is then perhaps you should go play another game, but please do not ruin it for us who like a good challenge. And don't give me the whole "it's not a challange, it just doesn't make sense" argument, because that's not an excuse. It DOES make sense, you are just bad at video games. So again, please don't ruin this game by making it easily accessable and easy to complete. Challenging content is what is lacking in the MMO world and we should not be getting rid of it for casuals who do not represent the community that has kept this game alive.
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This one isn't really an issue of education. It's one of supply. Mirta nailed it on the head here:
 
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half of my PVE gear is unruned because runing my PvP gear has eaten up 20 plat so far and I still got my weapon to rune. While defensive rune slots on healers can be sort of useful, because of how expensive runing is you want to get it right first time, meaning a re-roll heaven.
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The content in this game is usually challenging if you are inexperienced or undergeared.  Practicing the dungeons helps you out with both of these issues.  The higher your gear score, the more trivial they become.  But even with good gear, if you don't learn the fights you will not succeed either, but you get a lot more slack as your gear makes up for mistakes.  
 
That being said there are probably two encounters that i feel are a little over tuned for the current player base that will also give the geared raiders a challenge.  mordecai redmoon in skullcano and the first boss in proto games academy. These are true pug killers, and the skullcano fight was already adjusted a bit, and to be fair can be completed with one dps and healer alive, or a well geared tank can solo usually, but this is not the case for proto games academy.  the rest of the fights are pretty straight forward and a single person can usually shoulder the load for the rest.  skullcano is a practice makes perfect fight and is usually the one fight i dread with pugs, but i am sometimes pleasantly surprised by some people's abilities.
 
but on another note i see people in crap gear running vet dungeons and they have no place being in them yet.  they are lucky there are people that can carry them through, and often i think that is their goal.	
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Well, by and large most MMOs don't go into great explanations of this kind of stuff. The problem is, in most MMOs stuff like runes are a "boost", not "core to performance".
 
They made runes such a big deal that they need to be explained in detail.
 
They made gear simple by putting easy stats on it. But then that gear is ineffective unless you understand the deep runing system. LOL.
 
I even experienced this at level 20. As a healer I was focus depleted. I put a few cheap runes in my gear (oh no I didn't!) and now I have an endless supply of focus!
 
TBH, I actually enjoy the rune system. I even enjoy how much tweaking it can add to your performance. But I'm not sure it's good for the game.
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I've seen a lot of posts out there from people talking about how the game is too hard, or unintuitive, or some other overt rationalization. My problem with that is if the game does get easier to play I won't have anything to look forward to. I've spent so much time playing other MMOs, constantly searching for a game that has at least some degree of difficulty and have been disappointed over and over again with the selection available. With Wildstar going f2p I can say that if content is made more accessible and easier for the broader public then I will no longer play this game due to being completely unsatisfied with the lack of difficulty. It's unforunate that a bunch of skill-less new players are taking the lime-light of opinion and risking the possibility of this game being completely ruined by gimped veteren dungeons and raids. If you have concerns with how difficult it is then perhaps you should go play another game, but please do not ruin it for us who like a good challenge. And don't give me the whole "it's not a challange, it just doesn't make sense" argument, because that's not an excuse. It DOES make sense, you are just bad at video games. So again, please don't ruin this game by making it easily accessable and easy to complete. Challenging content is what is lacking in the MMO world and we should not be getting rid of it for casuals who do not represent the community that has kept this game alive.
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			I refuse to rune at this time. Let me explain why. Gear and runes for over a year were all nullified recently with the f2p transition. The current system along with crafting is broken and is slated for a patch or update. While this is great, I wonder if they will fiddle around with too much requiring another re-gear/rune. All this combined with new content about to be released that will AGAIN nullify gear/runes.... Meh	
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Exactly this. I don't think the rune system is good for the game at all. It is opaque, confusing, messy, over-complicated (even after being reworked) and inaccessible. It STILL needs a third party addon to be make sense of it properly. It doesn't even make much sense from a lore standpoint either - why runes, is Wildstar incapable of coming up with its own concepts free of fantasy trope baggage? 
 
Fixing the horrors of the rune system isn't about making the game easier or dumbing it down, it's about making it more accessible, more logical, more FUN.
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Carbine, I agree. Do not remove challenging content.
 
But you may want to consider content that exists in multiple versions of difficulty that scale their rewards as appropriate to risk vs. reward paradigms.
This would, IMO, keep you from being restricted to the tiny playerbase that thrives on extreme challenge, while still retaining that extremely challenging content in all its glory for those who want to enjoy it.
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Huh.. want a challenge? disable all telegraphs.
Don't use any boosts or healing items, heck go raid without healers..
Lot's of ways to challenge yourself as you can see.  :P
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I like the challenge in gameplay this game currently presents, even as a new player. I would make a few points, however.
 
I think the combat system, as it is set up, could be a considerable barrier to new players coming from other games. A more traditional control set should be an option.
 
I also think the game is counterintuitive in many ways. Too many to list, other than perhaps missions are all over the place early on when they would be probably serve to hold players better at that stage if they were more "hubish", so to speak.
 
Many of the games systems, IMO, are presented far too early in gameplay. Information overload can result.
 
All of that said, if reducing game difficulty means the game will attract more players, I am all for it.	
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			I think it's fair to point out to everyone who thinks that the hardcore community is only a small portion of the Wildstar community that every single MMO out there gets the majority of funding from it's hardcore players. Developers from other games have been quite open about how they always try to bring casuals in, but without the dedicated hardcore community they wouldn't be able to survive. This is even true for games like FFXIV which wouldn't have made it to where it is today without the hardcore community that stuck through it during it's poor phases. It is only the casuals that get to benefit without putting in the time and effort to report bugs, disgussing the game in the forums or developing apps for the community, you all get to benefit from the time and effort the hardcore community puts in and you expect Carbine to jump through hoops to make everything easily accessible for you. And that's just it, you're not being realistic if you think the hardcore players have a small effect on games, because quite honestly the games are the way the are because of the hardcore players and without them we'd be left with games that cater too much to the casual community, like FFXIV that has lost more than half their player base 3 weeks after their first expansion. If carbine takes that same path of easy accessibility they would be dooming themselves to an unplayed game because their core players would be gone, and without those core players there would be nobody to run your end game scene for you (and I'm fairly sure at least half of players don't want to have to figure that stuff out themselves).
			
				
	Edited October 15, 2015 by Krystyn	
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I think it's fair to point out to everyone who thinks that the hardcore community is only a small portion of the Wildstar community that every single MMO out there gets the majority of funding from it's hardcore players. Developers from other games have been quite open about how they always try to bring casuals in, but without the dedicated hardcore community they wouldn't be able to survive. This is even true for games like FFXIV which wouldn't have made it to where it is today without the hardcore community that stuck through it during it's poor phases. It is only the casuals that get to benefit without putting in the time and effort to report bugs, disgussing the game in the forums or developing apps for the community, you all get to benefit from the time and effort the hardcore community puts in and you expect Carbine to jump through hoops to make everything easily accessible for you. And that's just it, you're not being realistic if you think the hardcore players have a small effect on games, because quite honestly the games are the way the are because of the hardcore players and without them we'd be left with games that cater too much to the casual community, like FFXIV that has lost more than half their player base 3 weeks after their first expansion. If carbine takes that same path of easy accessibility they would be dooming themselves to an unplayed game because their core players would be gone, and without those core players there would be nobody to run your end game scene for you (and I'm fairly sure at least half of players don't want to have to figure that stuff out themselves).
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I think it's fair to point out to everyone who thinks that the hardcore community is only a small portion of the Wildstar community that every single MMO out there gets the majority of funding from it's hardcore players. Developers from other games have been quite open about how they always try to bring casuals in, but without the dedicated hardcore community they wouldn't be able to survive. This is even true for games like FFXIV which wouldn't have made it to where it is today without the hardcore community that stuck through it during it's poor phases.
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I think it's fair to point out to everyone who thinks that the hardcore community is only a small portion of the Wildstar community that every single MMO out there gets the majority of funding from it's hardcore players. 
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The problem here lies in the MMO reward system. If the best loot comes from the most challenging content, then everyone will feel entitled to those rewards. Even with a multi-tier system, the same people currently calling for nerfs will continue to call for them.
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			I think the fact that this game generally catered to hardcore players in it's initial design is one of things that almost killed it...generally speaking of course. This games poor initial performance in the market stands in evidence to the ever shrinking hardcore MMO market and pool of players.	
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How many "hardcore" games are there out there making so much money they have no need to go for server mergers, Free To Play, and In Game Stores selling cosmetics and fluff?
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I think the fact that this game generally catered to hardcore players in it's initial design is one of things that almost killed it...generally speaking of course. This games poor initial performance in the market stands in evidence to the ever shrinking hardcore MMO market and pool of players.
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Well, Eve.
 
I'm not suggesting I know the numbers. I just don't, so I'm not going to pretend to think that hardcore drive the game. But Eve is an example of that.
 
(It's worth noting that not all people who enjoy a challenge are "hardcore" though).
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I think the fact that this game generally catered to hardcore players in it's initial design is one of things that almost killed it...generally speaking of course. This games poor initial performance in the market stands in evidence to the ever shrinking hardcore MMO market and pool of players.
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Not really an MMORPG though is it?
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It isn't?
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I will concede that Eve is a good example of a healthy hardcore game. One of the few in the market, one could argue it is a niche game that is rather unique, but it still stands as a hardcore holdout that is definitely not casual friendly.
 
That said, Eve is not exactly dominating the market (though certainly healthy in it's own right).	
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So weird you say things like this, when it was the *exact opposite* experience in WildStar. Oh sure, there were a couple of really hardcore guilds who stuck around during the bleakest periods, but it wasn't the hardcores who kept the lights on all those months. It was the casuals, the role-players and the Housing addicts  - the people least affected by the "Hardcore or Go Home" mentality - who stuck around in the greatest numbers.
 
Discount those people in this community at your own peril.
 
EDIT: Wow, two other people popped in to tell you how wrong you are in the time it took me to tell you how wrong you are.
 
By the way, you're wrong. Really wrong. Like, the wrongest thing I've read all week level of wrong.
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It's a very different game, for sure. But it's still very much a part of the genre. The argument about hardcore pve vs pvp is an interesting discussion. But anyway, I wasn't arguing the point. Just saying that there is a game out there that's done it. Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
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Not really. I mean it's Online and Massively Multiplayer ... but it has a much in common with an MMORPG like WildStar as chess does with improv theater. :lol: ;)
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I think the fact that this game generally catered to hardcore players in it's initial design is one of things that almost killed it...generally speaking of course. This games poor initial performance in the market stands in evidence to the ever shrinking hardcore MMO market and pool of players.
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And I will state, once again, even though I know people disagree, that I don't think it was "catering to hardcore" that cause the problems this game had.
 
I'm don't want to get into that argument yet again, I just want to note my objection to the assumption that the game :
 
a. catered to hardcore
b. hardcore catering is what caused problems.
 
I don't think either of those things are true, despite how common the perception/view/belief is.
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It isn't?
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Exactly.
 
How many players left when they first encountered the end-game grind-fest?
No idea on exact numbers, but it was enough that Carbine / NCSoft decided that toning down how hardcore that was AND server mergers were required to keep the game financially viable.
 
And a year or so on from that Carbine / NCSoft have now decided that the game with that refined model is still not all that financially viable so have had to go F2P and add an In Game Store full of fluff.
 
But, sure if you read these forums you'd think it was the 5% of hordcore players who keep clamouring for more hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive.
 
Yeah, right...
 
The ongoing development path of this game has shown that Hardcore is no longer viable.
 
All The Best
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Yeah, plus you don't really see NEW people playing EVE. It's *very very VERY* newbie unfriendly at this point. The culture there is just awful and I am convinced the only people who play long-term are either sadists who live to make other people miserable, or masochists who somehow twistedly enjoy being ground into dust and ridiculed by others.
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Unfortunately they are not fooling anyone, least of all the game developers.
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Well, honestly I can't deride hardcore players for trying to desperately hold on to what they love. I used to be one of those players. I embraced a casual playstyle to change with the times, but I do miss some of the more draconian aspects of old gaming (permadeath, player looting, forced PVP, real cost to death, etc.). Back in those days you actually felt some trepidation when traveling in the world.
 
I have, however, learned to enjoy casual aspects of gameplay. Some, not all mind you, but some hardcore players will certainly try anything to hold on to the past, including posting propaganda.
 
Unfortunately they are not fooling anyone, least of all the game developers.
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How many players left when they first encountered the end-game grind-fest?
No idea on exact numbers, but it was enough that Carbine / NCSoft decided that toning down how hardcore that was AND server mergers were required to keep the game financially viable.
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Yeah, plus you don't really see NEW people playing EVE. It's *very very VERY* newbie unfriendly at this point. The culture there is just awful and I am convinced the only people who play long-term are either sadists who live to make other people miserable, or masochists who somehow twistedly enjoy being ground into dust and ridiculed by others.
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Exactly this. I don't think the rune system is good for the game at all. It is opaque, confusing, messy, over-complicated (even after being reworked) and inaccessible. It STILL needs a third party addon to be make sense of it properly. It doesn't even make much sense from a lore standpoint either - why runes, is Wildstar incapable of coming up with its own concepts free of fantasy trope baggage?
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I agree with pretty much all you said in #68 Jeff.
 
I have no issue with genuinely hard content, that is challenging and rewarding.
 
But the old Attunement and the current Runing systems aren't that at all.
 
All The Best	
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There is most certainly a lack of consensus on the definition of a hardcore player compared to a casual one. Different studies have used varied criteria, further exacerbating the issue.
 
I have found the most common definition seems to come down to this.
 
Hardcore players are more loyal but represent a minority in most popular MMOs. They are generally driven by reward and desire challenge in gameplay. They enjoy group efforts.
 
Casual players are more transient but represent a majority in most popular MMOs. They are generally driven by exploration, alternative gameplay features and appearance. They enjoy solo play.
 
Unfortunately the ratio of the former to the latter is somewhere around 25 to 1 in the modern market. Just 15 years ago that ratio was 1 to 10.	
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Unfortunately the ratio of the former to the latter is somewhere around 25 to 1 in the modern market. Just 15 years ago that ratio was 1 to 10.
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It's not that they catered to the hardcore, it's that they understood how to develop for that audience.  If you look at what they released it very strongly suggests that they thought casuals loved dailes and grinds.  They still believe that casuals demand easy and relatively unrewarding content.
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Just 15 years ago "hardcore" was the only game in town so of course most players back then were "hardcore." Back then, gaming was a niche, counter-culture phenomenon. Today it's a global, multi-billion dollar, multi-million player business.
 
The reason we were all "hardcore" 10-15 years ago is BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER!
 
WoW hadn't ground all the rough edges off yet. Grinding was still a "viable" progression tactic. No one had even considered things like LFG and match-making tools - and nearly *everyone* was on the path to Raiding, since that was the only Endgame content around!
 
Times changed. We grew up and the industry grew up with us.
 
Thank the Eldan. There is no way I could play the same kind of MMO today that I played over a decade ago. As I said earlier, ain't nobody got time for that.
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			One side note...I do feel the changes to the overall gaming market, with casual dominance, has had one clear negative effect....the move away from PC gaming to more profitable F2P mobile games. The demise of the Metal Gear Solid series is a good example of this, IMO Konami has lost it's mind.	
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I think it's fair to point out to everyone who thinks that the hardcore community is only a small portion of the Wildstar community that every single MMO out there gets the majority of funding from it's hardcore players. Developers from other games have been quite open about how they always try to bring casuals in, but without the dedicated hardcore community they wouldn't be able to survive. This is even true for games like FFXIV which wouldn't have made it to where it is today without the hardcore community that stuck through it during it's poor phases. It is only the casuals that get to benefit without putting in the time and effort to report bugs, disgussing the game in the forums or developing apps for the community, you all get to benefit from the time and effort the hardcore community puts in and you expect Carbine to jump through hoops to make everything easily accessible for you. And that's just it, you're not being realistic if you think the hardcore players have a small effect on games, because quite honestly the games are the way the are because of the hardcore players and without them we'd be left with games that cater too much to the casual community, like FFXIV that has lost more than half their player base 3 weeks after their first expansion. If carbine takes that same path of easy accessibility they would be dooming themselves to an unplayed game because their core players would be gone, and without those core players there would be nobody to run your end game scene for you (and I'm fairly sure at least half of players don't want to have to figure that stuff out themselves).
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Well, Eve.
 
I'm not suggesting I know the numbers. I just don't, so I'm not going to pretend to think that hardcore drive the game. But Eve is an example of that.
 
(It's worth noting that not all people who enjoy a challenge are "hardcore" though).
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you cannot compare a silly wow clone to EVE! ALSO EVE offers loads of casual content in high sec!
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			Actually the group who are against casual mmos are much larger in my experience, just check out all the posts on mmorpg.com youll see how many are still looking for a home, wildstar so far feels like it retains older mmorpg elements with many new elements, so it seems like a home for me. People are a tired of the casual side for sure, not to mention other elements in newer mmorpgs today.	
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Proof please.
 
Because ALL of the information I have seen around LOTRO and SWTOR show the opposite.
 
Players who are into cosmetics and housing tend to spend more than "Harcore players".
 
How many "hardcore" games are there out there making so much money they have no need to go for server mergers, Free To Play, and In Game Stores selling cosmetics and fluff?
 
Oh, that's right.
 
Not a single one.
 
I have sent 100 times more in game time and money on my Housing Plot than I have on "hardcore" play (whatever that is).
 
Hard content is NOT the same bad design, lazy RNG and grinds.
 
All The Best
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I have found the most common definition seems to come down to this.
 
Hardcore players are more loyal but represent a minority in most popular MMOs. They are generally driven by reward and desire challenge in gameplay. They enjoy group efforts.
 
Casual players are more transient but represent a majority in most popular MMOs. They are generally driven by exploration, alternative gameplay features and appearance. They enjoy solo play.
 
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