Report 1754

Report #1754
Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toad
 Org: Glomdoring Status: Rejected Jul 2017
Furies' Decision:
We do not believe this is necessary.
Problem: Wicca Toad. Kissing a toad is a cure for the wiccan based instant kill
of toad curse with a 100% cure rate and then a 40% chance to cure with no costs
and a 60% chance to cure and transfer the toad affliction to the kisser. Kissing
toads is a little too good in that in large groups you can chain kiss toads to
beat the affliction essentially racing kiss and stomp with kiss having a shorter
balance. Kissing is one second of balance, stomping is 2 seconds, casting toad
is a 4 second Equi time.
[A: 5 R: 8] Solution #1: Make kissing a toad a 100% transfer rate. This means
 that people can choose to effectively sacrifice
 themselves to avoid the death of an important person
 but leaves a kill for the attacker.
[A: 1 R:10] Solution #2: Increase the balance time of kissing to three
 seconds. Change the chance to cure a toad by kissing
 from 100% to 50%. This way there are two rolls
 simultaneously. One 50/50 chance to cure and also a
 simultaneous 60/40 chance for the kisser to be
 toaded. This makes kissing a toad a lot more risky as
 first it may not cure and secondly even if it doesn't
 cure you could still get toaded. With this when you
 kiss a toad you could end up with A: Both parties
 cured and fine. B Both parties toaded. C Orignal
 party cured, kissed toaded. D Nothing happens.
[A: 0 R:10] Solution #3: Additional solution proposed on feedback. Change the
 chance to 80/20 and put a cool down on it so you cant
 chain kiss toads. If you kiss and get turned into a
 toad you cant be kissed for 6 seconds.
Player Comments:
---[Veyils on 7/4 @ 19:50 sets as pending]
---[Shedrin on 7/5 @ 20:21 writes]:
Not neceesarily opposed but would like a discussion as to the necessity. As I
understand it, a major reasoning for Wiccans having generally better mana drain
abilities than Guardians was the existence of the toad stage making Toadcurse
less consistent as a kill method. What do you think of that reasoning? Second, I
prefer Solution 1 over 2/3 as it's simpler and there's no randomness involved,
assuming the premise of a buff is supported.
---[Veyils on 7/6 @ 19:35 writes]:
That reasoning does not really make sense to me to be honest and I'm not really
sure where its coming from. I'd assume your comparing Nihilists, Celestines,
Shadowdancers and Moondancers directly. Its a very tricky comparison to make
without going into an essay comparing everything each class brings to the table
and I'm not sure if this is the place for it but I'll give a recap on my views
on it and if you want a more indepth discussion on class comparasion I think the
envoy wiki about class direction and development would be a good forum for that.
So as a sort of direct response to the concept you bring up: If your doing a
direct compassion I could see two or three main talking points. It'd be easy to
argue that wiccans overall should a better way to do a mana kill than their
guardian counterparts as a mana kill is wiccans only prime way to kill. Although
that argument would assume that guardians have a reliably viable non mana kill
route(which there are ideas and reports floating around for. As a general
concept I'd be opposed to a guardian asking for a mana kill route that is
superior to wiccans while also asking for a strong viable way to kill with
inquisition/sacrifice/etc that'd just be having your cake and eating it but I'm
happy to support guardians having better mana drain within reason(and there are
reports in for this already as well) if its the direction they want to go.
---[Tarken on 7/7 @ 20:42 writes]:
My preference here is for either solutions 1 or 3.
---[Falaeron on 7/11 @ 21:53 writes]:
I'm pretty much thinking along the same lines as Shedrin. Wiccans simply drain
mana better than guardians and this isn't about what the vision is or what
direction we want to take them. The fact is they do, at this moment in time.
Also, it doesn't really matter if a class technically has a secondary instakill
if that instakill isn't actually viable in any way.
---[Veyils on 7/15 @ 00:15 writes]:
Its not about the vision in itself its about making sure that each class has
viable kill routes as a standard. If they are not viable submit a report and we
can work on it.
---[Veyils on 7/15 @ 00:18 writes]:
Feels a bit of a tangent to be going on about the viablity of other classes
instant kills. This was just a way a team can game their way out of an
instantkill I discovered in testing that felt should be fixed. If your happy
with the solutions Shedrin though then I don't mind discussing class balance
here but I just thought we had a better forum for it on the wiki.
---[Wobou on 7/15 @ 02:21 writes]:
I agree that kissing is too cheap. I also agree that wiccans drain more mana
than guardians and toad has been buffed continuously over the years to the point
where it's not far behind absolve. I personally think we should just acknowledge
that toad is basically absolve at this point and either nerf wiccan drain to
where guardians are or buff guardians to be as viable with mana drains as
wiccans are. All of that said, I like sol. 1 because it maintains a definite
downside to the ability with more strategy around it. I like the chaos in sol 2,
and I had previously incorrectly thought there was a chance for both players to
become toads when you kiss so it matches that expectation.
---[Sondayga on 7/17 @ 17:46 writes]:
I mentioned before I didn't think this was necessary change. I enjoy the random
chance to get out . If anything I would be alright with the percentages being
changed similar to sol3 without the cooldown and then revisiting if needed
---[Iytha on 7/18 @ 10:15 writes]:
I don't particularly see the need for this, but I also don't particularly see a
problem with Sol 1.
---[Xenthos on 7/20 @ 22:38 writes]:
Going to agree with some of the above comments that there isn't really a need
for this at all. My suggestion, if a change is desired on the admin point,
would be an adjustment of solution 3: Don't change the %ages of kissing, but a
cooldown could be looked at. People have been bringing up my drain-comparison
arguments already so I'm not really going to throw it out there again, except to
say that Toadcurse is not really intended to be a instakill so much as instakill
prep (it's gotten a number of buffs over the years, but that core has remained
intact throughout).
---[Veyils on 7/23 @ 00:29 writes]:
I would agree more with wobous assement that Toadcurse is basically the Wiccans
prime instant kill and we should treat it as such.
---[Xenthos on 7/24 @ 01:10 writes]:
I don't think you are agreeing with his assessment at all. He is suggesting a
rework of Wiccans (to lower mana drain to more comparable levels for guardians)
in exchange for changing the design of the Toadcurse skill to make it an
instakill. He is not saying to treat it as an insta-kill as-is, which it simply
is not (and is not meant to be).
---[Kaimanahi on 7/26 @ 21:21 writes]:
I don't support this for the reasons stated above, but just wanted to note that
there is still a definite downside to being toaded - i.e., you lose all of your
defs. So even having multiple people attempt the kiss cure still imposes an
appropriate risk for the opportunity.
---[Ejderha on 7/30 @ 08:39 writes]:
I agree with the common assessment that toad is fine as it is and problem is not
in evidence.