Episode 164 - This Is the Mutant Revolution: Live at Rose City Comic Con

==Episode Description==
In which Jay and Miles finally sit down for an in-depth discussion of the political weight of superheroes and what the X-Men mean to us in America’s current political climate.
== Listener Questions ==
== Transcript ==
(Unedited auto-transcript)
So Jay Stevie Hunter is in Congress now.
Hell yes she is.
And that got me thinking.
We don't see a lot of X-Men
going to US politics, do we?
You know it's really difficult to win over
an electorate that hates and fears you.
Yeah, but it seems weird.
I mean, it's such a political book.
You mean like the metaphors. And no.
I mean, the amount of time they spend on
actual legislation and political procedure.
It seems bizarre that the X-Men haven't
made more direct attempts to get involved,
they have just not so much in the 616.
But in other universes.
Well sure. I mean how few X men
have even ended up president.
I remember Kitty Pryde and X-Men the end,
but who else Dazzler?
OK, I can see that Cyclops briefly. I mean,
he got assassinated almost immediately.
OK, but I'm surprised that Professor
X didn't make the list, so he did.
He's actually his president
in the ruins timeline.
Well, that sounds ominous.
More analysis so.
Why So what is an Xavier
presidency look like?
Well,
he moved the capital from DC to Westchester.
Interesting choice and he
forcibly incarcerated any mutant
with dangerous powers, what?
I'm Jay Edidin and I'm Miles Stokes
and we are here to explain the X-Men
because it's about time someone did.
Oh wow. Welcome to episode 164 of
Jay and Miles explain the X-Men.
We walk you through the ins,
the outs and the retcons of
comics greatest superhero
soap opera, and welcome to all the
folks who are here live at Rose City
Comic Con 2017 in Portland, OR.
Now yes, yes yeah, give yourself.
You're so cool. We're doing politics.
Was it? Please applaud, is that?
Please clap that was it.
Oh we should have made a
sign that would have been.
We have signs. Actually we have.
We haven't revolution signs from
last night because we have decided
we decided that this year what we
were doing and what this episode is.
This is we are here for the mutant
revolution. It seemed timely.
Yeah yeah. So so we should say so.
This will be recorded.
You will all.
That's a different microphone
shouldn't punch it so you want.
And I'm trying to do the pulling back thing.
I always forget 'cause we have to be like.
Right up in our mikes when we're recording
most of the time and these aren't like that.
So confusing,
but so many people will be hearing this.
Filter, while many people will
be hearing this later recorded.
So if you're listening to it in the future,
we're here in a room with a
bunch of awesome listeners.
And if you could have been one of them,
I'm sure you would have.
But we understand that that wasn't possible.
That's OK.
Next time though, you should totally do it,
and for all the people who are here now
to your future selves the weekends.
You're still rad, yes,
alright so.
For those of you familiar with the show,
this is going to be a slightly
different episode.
We're gonna talk a little bit about
why so those of you unfamiliar we.
Don't talk politics a lot on the podcast.
We're very frank about where we fall
on the political spectrum and we
talk a bit about how the stories we
cover might have read or come out
of or been related to the politics
of the times when they were written.
But we don't do a lot with regards
to current politics.
We've made occasional exceptions,
but for the most part we try to
stay very much within our lane in
terms of we discuss the X-Men,
we discuss specific areas of the Exxon,
usually in roughly chronological order.
We discussed those in larger context,
but yeah,
we're pretty pretty into staying on topic.
That said. It is 2017.
It is a year when I think.
Given current events in general,
and especially certain intersections of
current events and comics publishing,
it is not only impossible,
but patently irresponsible not to
address and to occupy those intersections.
So this is going to be the Jay and
miles talk about current politics and
how that relates to the X-Men episode.
Yeah,
and occasionally we get a listener saying,
like, you know,
I just I come to comics for escapism,
and let's just talk about the plots
and the characters and stuff.
But dude. It's freaking X-Men.
I got a very angry email from
someone who is like can't you
leave politics out of X men?
No,
this is a shout out to that
person is me officially making
fun of you on the podcast.
But no, sorry, but here's the thing
and I want to talk about this
because I feel really strongly
that a art is inherently political.
This is, I wrote my thesis on this.
But that that art that anything that
is published for popular consumption,
that is part of a larger cultural
conversation, can't exist in a vacuum.
It's influenced by the time it's
created is influenced by the culture
that's created and it's for an
audience and the conversation starts
and the way it interacts with those
conversations cannot be apolitical,
and I think that's particularly
true of superhero comics.
An I want to talk about that case.
There are two Givens that
we're working from here.
In this episode.
One is that superhero comics
are inherently political.
And specifically that the nature and
premise of superhero comics conveys a
degree of political responsibility.
So there are a couple of reasons for this.
First and foremost is their
ubiquity and symbol status.
If you grab a random person on the street,
they are far more likely to be able
to tell you Batman's origin story
then the names of their City Council
representatives and some of that is
speaks to current political awareness,
but more speaks to the fact that
Batman's been around longer and Batman's
been part of the cultural narrative longer.
And that's true of superheroes in general.
They are symbols as well as characters.
The other point,
and this is when I want to credit to G
Willow Wilson that she commented on,
which I think is an incredibly
important point is that.
Superhero comics are among the
only media that explicitly label
characters as Heroes or villains.
And.
Saying this is a hero,
this is what the term hero represents.
Gives or a villain gives those
representations a lot more cultural
weight than they would have otherwise,
and it means that when you're editing
or writing or producing those things.
You need to be sitting and thinking
about what those words mean and
what they mean in your current
political and cultural climate,
and even given that all being
the case X-Men specifically,
X-Men is extra political.
I mean it didn't start out that way.
To be fair,
Stanley just got tired of thinking
up portions for people.
Yes,
I know you can make a pretty strong
case for early X-Men being a pretty
direct metaphor or speaking pretty
directly to Jewish immigrant experiences.
And I'm talking even,
but even before the plus,
just the very conception of the premise,
no, I know I'm talking about
the really early stuff and.
Even yeah,
this is.
This is something I feel like
this is one of those curfew stick
is not at this panel,
but if you go find him and ask
him about this he will tell you a
lot more than I can about it and
it'll be really interesting.
It's fascinating stuff,
but yeah,
I mean the X-Men mutants
have always stood in for
oppressed minorities.
And what that's meant over the years,
that's really changed.
I mean, I think civil rights
was probably by far the most
commonly seen allegory at first,
at the same time the X-Men more than
maybe any other Marvel character,
save for Captain America,
are defined by their relationship
to dominant systems of power.
They are working in or out of systems.
They are the characters who. Again,
who had that representation but who also?
Are in Congress testifying a lot
in the comics in the movies,
who are the subjects of active
legislation at a time when not a
lot of other comics characters are
and who interact really seriously
with contemporary politics.
I'd honestly I'd say other
than Captain America,
they're probably the most
blatantly political characters.
Yeah, I mean, it was just.
It was just recently in X-Men Gold
when we saw the Mutant Deportation Act,
which is like directly relevant
to stuff going on right now.
I think one of the more explicit
examples of that,
certainly even more than like
the Moon Registration Act from
the 80s or anything like that.
Yeah,
and.
The other thing that I think makes
the X-Men important as a political
locus in comics is something we've
talked a lot about on the podcast,
and I think that a lot of the
people we've talked to who listened
to the podcast can speak to,
which is that it's a comic that
attracts a lot of readers who are
coming from marginalized groups.
That a disproportionate number of
folks who are ******** X-Men fans
are ******** X-Men fans because they
identify with alienation and marginalization.
X-Men is a comic that has always had
very high concentrations of queer
readers of leaders of color of female
readers in a time when comics were
very actively unfriendly to female readers,
and there were reasons for that,
and they haven't always had
representation that reflected that,
and they haven't always,
I think, earned that,
but the centrality of.
That metaphor of what they mean
and what they represent in their
larger universe is something that's
that's made them a gathering
point for readers who I think are
disproportionately likely to be
affected by by contemporary politics.
And it's actually really cool if
you look at the letters columns
from Old X-Men comics from the 70s
and 80s like that was evident even
even back then like that was just
right out there in a way that it
certainly was for other comics,
but I think not as much don't
have any scientific data there.
But you know,
just I would actually love to
go through a number crunch.
Some of those letter columns I feel
like so much better grounding in
statistical analysis then then I
would need to be involved in that,
but I would I would love.
To see folks take those apart,
and in those ways that would be fascinating.
So I mean,
there are so many ways to talk
about X-Men politics.
So Jay, where do we want to start?
Gosh, OK. So what did we write down?
So I talked about the question of
representation and I want to come to
that because how many of you have
recently heard phrases like keep identity
politics out of fill in the blank?
Alright, or or you know keep politics
out of comics or how come they're
changing all the comics to make
them more politically correct?
What happened to all of our white dudes?
There are like barely any left.
I know it's only four out of
every five characters,
not five out of every six.
So first of all,
I'd like to say that the phrase
politically correct is ********.
I would encourage you to replace
it if you ever are considering
using it in a conversation.
I would. I would recommend
replacing it in your mind with.
Not being an *******.
Because politically correct.
First of all, as a concept,
it was originally a positive thing.
And yeah, the idea is to.
Like there are basic,
fairly straightforward,
fairly low impact ways that you can
avoid being unnecessarily cruel.
Isn't that nice?
Why would you not do that like that's great?
That's like saying, oh, they're so,
so so safe drive they drive so safely.
God, they never swerve into oncoming traffic.
The horror.
But yeah, in terms of identity in comics,
so we've used the term paper mirrors before
and you probably try that better than I can.
So paper mirror is a phrase that stolen.
I think the original use was
as the term celluloid mirror,
and I think that it was a comfort
to come from the celluloid closet.
Or does it come from a different credit?
I have no idea.
I don't either.
I'm sorry, this is irresponsible sourcing.
But when we say paper mirrors,
we're talking about finding reflections
of ourselves or of our experiences.
In books and comics in print representation,
this paper and most of those paper
mirrors are going to be partially
going to find someone who speaks to a
very specific aspect of who you are.
And.
What you can find and how specific
the representation you can find is
going to spend a lot on who you are,
what you're looking for,
and how directly your identity
in the parts of your identity
you want to see reflected.
Reflect the dominant paradigm.
If you are a straight white dude who
is conventionally attractive and
Protestant but not ultra observant.
And from the United States and
middle to middle class to wealthy.
You have a wealth of options
you can say I want this.
I like this character because this
character has exactly my haircut and
exactly my taste in French fries.
And like you can,
you can get down to the details.
If you are not that person.
You sort of find things where
you can and you find metaphors,
and that's the place,
I think where a lot of us come to the X men.
Because maybe we can't find a
character who is visibly disabled
in the ways that we are,
but there's Nightcrawler.
That's actually one of the earliest
letters in Chris Claremont's run.
I remember this one.
Yes,
from a woman who who has physical
disabilities that involve,
among other things,
fewer and some merged fingers on her hands.
And talking about what it means to
see a character named Nightcrawler
who's not only.
In the book and Central in the
book Invisible in the book.
But in the book and central
Invisible as part of something.
And who's differences?
Affect him that he's not in a
perfect world that he has to
face that stuff but
has allies on his side who
were talking about it and just
actually seeing that and you see,
you see some of that early on in X-Men
two it degree Cyclops with his you know
having to have his glasses and stuff.
You see Angel having to hide his
wings but at the same time to agree
it's like come on Crimea River.
You can do awesome things that
you have to hide.
Yeah also you are like otherwise,
the Wasps, Wasps,
whoever Wasps and that's one
awesome thing about the all new all
different era that started in the
70s is you start seeing characters.
With actual diversity in addition
to the metaphorical diversity,
now it was really just baby
steps at that point,
but still credit where credit is due.
I mean,
how many other like black female superheroes
worth their time other than storm?
Trying to think of this and I'm trying
to remember when Misty Knight came in.
She was later.
I think so.
This was like 74 well and you see,
this is the sort of thing
where if we were late 7th work
delayed some of these early 80s.
If we were recording we just pause it,
look it up and then come
back like we already knew it.
But you're here for the messy
stuff here for the mess up,
but you're also here for the
what we're talking about.
X-Men is the framing of
what we're talking about,
but this stuff is bigger, so yeah, so.
And the metaphor has pros and
cons of positive point of it,
and one of the things is an important
positive point is that when you
have characters who are largely,
metaphorically representative.
More of us can look at them and say,
Oh yeah, that reflects part of my experience.
There's a wider range for us
to read ourselves into them.
You can.
You can see this in terms of visual
representation.
There's Scott McCloud Understanding
Comics thing we talked about with cartoon.
Your face is the more people will
see it as representing them.
On the other hand,
when the specific experiences the
specific real-world experiences that are
represented only belong to one group,
and it's a culturally dominant
and culturally privileged group.
Metaphors aren't an adequate substitution
for that direct representation,
so there's that so so X-Men end
up in a weird place where they
are a very politically engaged.
It's a very politically engaged comic.
It's a very both,
both metaphorically and literally,
just in terms of the ways characters
interact with political structures.
But at the same time it represents
an address is very few actual
real life things on that front,
because mutant always takes front
and center like there's a mutant.
You know there's a mutant deportation act,
but no one is addressing the
fact that as far as I know,
like multiple students at the Xavier
School or undocumented immigrants.
I really hope they do.
They totally could.
It would be great.
Yeah, it would be really nice to see
you see some of that occasionally.
Greg Pox Storm Run did a great job with that.
Oh yeah, if you haven't read that,
run freaking phenomenal.
I wish that series was still going on.
It's so good, so good and Iceman is
is is going there to some extent,
but it's been something
that's largely missing and.
It's been something that's largely
missing at a time when Marvel is
publishing a book about Captain
America being a secret Nazi.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, the story is basically over,
which is great, but that was handled,
perhaps poorly.
That was that that goes back for me.
You know, talking about the.
Social responsibility of being of
being an entity that labels things
as heroes and villains and is dealing
with those icons and that you're not
doing that in a political and social vacuum.
And especially with X-Men,
I think how that plays out.
You know.
X-Men fans are notoriously among the
least forgiving in comics fandom,
and I think some of that is because you
and we tend to be among the most invested,
and we tend to have very high
expectations for and see a lot of
potential and want to see it carried
out and then be very unforgiving one.
And yeah, I mean I think I think that's
one of the most important things about
X-Men to pull it back to modern politics.
It's a book that shows us
alternatives and it shows us.
It shows us active models of resistance.
It shows us that when we are working
from the margins, we have the right
and responsibility to demand more.
And we so we talked about paper mirrors,
which I think is a central critical
concept to X men in terms of
politics and just in terms of,
well, everything about it.
And there's also something
I want to talk about.
I've been trying to come up
with a good name for this.
I'm sure somebody out there,
some theorist or scholar has a better term.
I like yours a lot.
Actually, I think I think even
if there is a more dominant term,
it's a really, really good one.
So this is what this is.
What I call paper windows as
opposed to paper mirrors.
It doesn't work as well because
even though papers not reflective,
it's also even less transparent than
it is reflective. Andy reflected.
It can be transparent.
OK, well regardless,
bear with me windows Windows made out
of Greece paper were actually a thing.
Well there we go.
It kind of works like last
was super expensive.
So yeah,
I feel much better But anyway,
so I've come to X men from a place of being
a lot of the terms that you mentioned Jay.
I mean I'm a white sis like I
am a in many ways.
What normal is considered to be
and so growing up with the X-Men
reading X-Men as a kid getting a
chance to be in the shoes of people
who weren't like me and to see
them as both incredible people.
But also people I could empathize
with like you know.
If Storm is going through a struggle
or kitties going through a struggle,
or Pyotr or whatever if the
New Mutants are falling in love
and having fights and whatever,
there are so many characters from you know,
admittedly not as much diversity
as we would like to see,
but still relatively diverse
backgrounds getting a chance
to put myself in their shoes.
I guess.
Kind of taught me early that, oh hey,
we're actually not all that different.
What I am is not necessarily normal,
it's just what I happen to be an X men X
men having the chance to do that, I think,
is another way that it can be very important.
Certainly not.
You know, overshadowing the paper mirror.
Fact of it,
because that's something that
people who are in poor,
marginalized don't have enough of in comics.
But I like that X-Men can do
both when it's done really well.
That's seems huge to me.
Yeah,
I mean,
I think one of the books that's
nailing that right now is Miss Marvel,
just in terms of giving readers first of all,
giving readers outside of the
default target audience of comics who
don't see a lot of representation.
Some really good representation and
2nd giving people who would not who
would not pick up a book about.
A Pakistani American girl in New
Jersey and a practicing Muslim Muslim,
but who will, if it's a superhero
comic basically saying hey so.
Here is here's a character your
identify with who is not like you
and who you're going to start,
and a group of people who are going to
start needing to see as a person there's.
It's actually that's that is
something that I love when it works,
and it's one of those sort of.
Not exactly sneaky, but it's a great.
I think it's a great way to
use big franchise stuff.
In a productive way is to realize
that it has a certain amount of
reach and selling power pretty
much no matter what you do with it,
so use it as a way to get that
that default audience.
To look through those windows that
they might not seek out to say hey,
cool superhero stuff inside here.
Oh and empathy. Haha, we've tricked you.
Now you're a better person.
Take that.
Yet Miss Marvel is basically everything
superhero comics should be in 2017, like
everything it represents is just amazing.
If you haven't read this book,
highly, highly recommended.
Nothing to do with X-Men
doesn't matter so good.
Same University math Wolverine.
Once close enough I get frustrated a lot.
At bubbly idealism it kind of feels,
and we're coming out of a period
where it felt like a lot of what
I could find in comics was either
just utter endemic misery or
like pure bubbly upbeat stuff.
And yeah, Miss Marvel is great
as a character who.
Persists and cares.
But also earns it totally like.
Yeah, she's so good and everyone who
works on that book is amazing, yes?
So we're apparently burning through time
'cause I forget panels order on time,
so we should talk about like
actual specific stuff in X-Men.
Alright, so we've been saying,
you know this is the mutant revolution,
and pulling on those
metaphors and I have been,
I've if you follow me on line you know that
I look to panels a lot as a paper mirror.
And I looked at comics a lot
as a paper mirror,
and I looked to them a lot as a
source for sort of symbols that help
me make sense of feelings and life.
And a world that does not
follow narrative rules.
And I've I.
I've been posting, you know,
my queried Cyclops pictures,
but at the same time I think the Mutant
Revolution is a really powerful metaphor.
For what I want and what I want to be
part of right now and for cultural
and direct resistance in an era where
our president is functionally mojo,
yeah.
Because I don't know who's listening
or who's out there or other folks
individual stories, for the most part,
but I am a Jewish transmission in a
relationship that is complicated.
Lee Queer and a marriage whose
legality depends on both states.
Willingness to like how states
recognize my gender and.
Whether same sex marriage is legal in them?
And. It's really ******* scary
and I am comparatively privileged.
I am white, I am.
You know I'm in a city that is.
I live in New York City.
It is very liberal.
It is a city that has a lot
of social safety net built in.
And is basically set up to be
an effective resistant city.
But it's still really,
really scary to get up every day,
and it's really scary to travel,
and it's really scary to read the news.
And it's even scarier to not
read the news and.
So the idea of a mutant revolution.
I think for me comes back to what
the X-Men are at their core,
which is family.
The X-Men are a bunch of misfits
and marginalized people who are
incredibly vulnerable on their own.
Even the more powerful among them.
You know you see all of the what if
stories and there's no what if this
person wasn't found by the X-Men?
What if this character died?
What if, etc?
And one of the things you see most
consistently is that for the most part.
No one really survives on their own.
The Mutant revolution to me is.
About standing up.
As a group,
it's about that kind of solidarity and unity,
and it's also about the decision.
To be visible in a large enough
insignificant have enough mass that
we can't be ignored and Jay you
mentioned it being about family,
and I think it's important to note
it specifically about chosen family.
Yeah,
which when you're a person in
whatever kind of category or group
or whatever who maybe doesn't
have a home in the family,
grew up with or the community
you grew up with.
Being able to find that and
have that should be real.
That's critical,
and that's what the X-Men are.
I mean there not a whole bunch of
people with metaphorical I beams.
There are people with metaphorical
I beams and weather powers and
teleportation powers and bones.
They can throw out of there.
For some reason and stuff like that,
they're all.
They're all weird in their own way.
They're all different in their own way,
and yet they stand together.
Yeah, it's about.
It's about intersectional
solidarity and allyship.
It's about saying we are coming here.
It's about saying my powers are scary.
For mostly this, you know,
my powers are scary in destructive,
but their containable and I mostly pass.
And your powers are much less destructive,
and you're much less likely to be targeted
as someone who could functionally,
who's seen as dangerous,
but your physics you are physically,
you can't. You can't pass this human.
You're visible mutant.
These are completely different places.
We also have whatever other
stuff we have going on going on,
But what we have in common is that
we're all mutants, and I mean,
let's face it, everybody in this room.
We're all mutants, yeah?
And or work.
Or humans who are choosing
to say you never know.
I might as well be or my
kids might as well be,
or someone I love might as well be.
And those personal relationships
aren't required to care like yeah,
so for me,
that's where the metaphor comes into use.
And that's where having that as a
unifying idea comes in that this is.
Or where the metaphor becomes
useful is yeah, about about those
intersections and about that solidarity,
and about that finding. The umbrella.
That we can all be under without
having to discard our individual
identities and without having to
discard our individual needs and causes.
So we're talking about,
you know what the Mutant revolution is,
how that applies.
So I kind of feel like we should work
in some of the particulars from X-Men.
Some of the political kind of
standpoints of important characters,
important events, that sort of thing.
Yeah, so. My favorite place to come too.
In terms of current politics
is not actually the mute well.
Some of its immune revolution
stuff Cyclops Mutant Revolution,
although that kind of fizzled,
but my go to right now in
terms of X-Men is dark rain.
We told you we were coming back
to it circled back and I have
mixed feelings about that era but
I ******* love the utopia are we
should probably explain briefly what
the deal is with that dark rain.
Norman Osborn ended up President
took over the United States was
still basically the Green Goblin.
There are a lot of parallels
to the current administration,
although it was more than 10 years ago.
He definitely would have used
Twitter if he had it.
He set up an X men team in an
Avengers team and the X-Men team
was run by Emma Frost,
who deliberately infiltrated them.
But we're still working
with the sentences gas.
Sorry this and the X-Men who
are based in San Francisco.
At that point,
The Avengers team was just sort of
terrifying, but what the X-Men did,
what Cyclops did was to create Utopia,
which was essentially not initially,
well, OK.
The Exodus started out basically
doing damage control resistance,
helping out at the margins,
but avoiding getting arrested
or getting tactically arrested.
And using a lot of resistance
or assistance tactics.
And I should say, by the way,
that I talk about disability activism.
And again I feel like this is a
real pertinent thing right now.
And this is where and I feel like.
I feel very,
very strongly this is the Cyclops is
right territory for me that Cyclops is.
Modes of resistance are hell.
Yeah,
are much much more effective
and actual resistance.
So where they were doing tact,
avoiding getting arrested or getting
tactically arrested when there were
people who do that without who worked,
there's a term in active
system called Arrest ability.
Which is basically whether you are
in a position where you could.
You can do things that will get you
arrested without wrecking your health,
life identity,
etc.
And that's something that again
is part of resistance tactics,
choosing and making decisions based on that.
And it's something that you actually
see the X-Men talking about,
if not exactly in those terms
during dark Reign.
So they're working around the margins.
They're trying to figure out how to
survive and what they ultimately do.
Is a combination of incredibly
effective use of news media?
And the foundation of Utopia.
For those of you who are recent to the X-Men
or Mr. Bunch, Utopia was briefly
a nominally sovereign nation.
In some ways it was a lot
like a second Genosha.
It was a place that mutants had default
citizenship to if they wanted Genosha.
The later one that was good,
not the previous one.
That sucked right Genosha under Magneto.
Dish yes, valid points.
But Utopia was was technically
was off the coast of California.
It was on the raised remains of asteroid MI.
Think we did a cold open about it.
I asked him is really confusing and it was
sort of in a perpetual state of kind of OK.
Well, I guess we're here.
What do we do now? Responsiveness,
but it was the basically the last frantic
action of a group of people who saw
themselves in tremendous danger who were
being actively and aggressively targeted by.
A powerful group with
extremely effective media spin.
And obviously it's not an option in
literal terms that a lot of us have,
but it's a very good.
It's one of the more direct
resistance errors of the X men,
and I like going back to it.
For that.
I mean, it's easy to go to the Xavier,
Magneto thing, but I don't know.
I mean, everyone tries to simplify that
into an MLK versus Malcolm X thing,
and that's kind of excessively reductive,
I think.
So I like your decision to go for something
more current and something more relevant.
Something that was designed in a more
contemporary political atmosphere.
Who can we actually talk about?
The MLK versus Malcolm X thing,
sure,
and then we get questions pretty alright.
So I've said this before on the podcast.
I will say it again,
that is a ******** duality.
The idea of Malcolm X is the socially
acceptable pacifist who is not threatening
to white liberals is OK and OK.
I'm sorry I am. It's been a day
to find been a day and a night,
Anna Day and again hurricane things
and I just got texts from my parents,
which is what I'm looking at.
And since we mentioned this
before we started recording,
our parents are both on the West Coast of
Florida and right in the path of Irma,
so we are checking our phones
a lot during this time.
Right, yeah, the people people
tend to represent Malcolm X as
a not Malcolm X or they tend to
represent Malcolm X as the militant.
Resistance MLK as the passive and
acceptable to white liberals who
want to feel virtuous but really
don't have conversations about
racism and white supremacy figure.
Those are both.
Radical oversimplifications and
I think in particular they do.
Martin Luther King a tremendous
disservice and erase a huge
amount of his most important work.
And speaking and writing. So.
But in terms of Xavier and Magneto,
I think their relevant point is that
we need both ideologues and actors.
That the principles matter,
and keeping in mind the principles that
we're fighting for and pushing for,
and the reasons we're doing things matter.
And having you know,
an idea of the world that we're shooting for,
even if it's not a world that
we're even if it's a world that
we're more than one step away from
getting to is really important.
And so is taking down the structures
that are preventing us from reaching it,
and so is actively resisting oppression,
and so is actively confronting.
Violence.
In ways that are effective.
And saying sometimes you,
and saying you know sometimes
you have to take smaller steps
and steps in a direction that
might not be part of the ideal.
To survive to the next day and have
something to build on and one of
the things I enjoy about where the X
line has gone is that it's not really
about Xavier and Magneto anymore.
I mean Magneto is no longer a massive
leader and Xavier's been dead for awhile,
but the parallel I really enjoyed were
sort of their ideological descendants,
namely in some ways.
And yes, I know we could.
There are totally exceptions,
but in some ways Cyclops almost took
magnetos more active approach to heart,
and Wolverine almost took well.
Logan almost took.
Xaviers more peaceful approach to heart,
and I like those are more complex
versions of where that came from.
You know what I like about them?
I like that they both acknowledge
that both are necessary exactly,
and that's one of the most important parts.
Yeah, that's something that you
get at the end of AVX consequences.
Actually,
in Cyclops is letter to magnesia
or not to Magneto Logan?
Wow I am really got this distracted
but in Cyclops is letter to Wolverine
and it's something you see when they
have actual conversations after that.
And I mean I think it's critical
we need resistance.
And we need schools and we need
both of those things because we
need to fight for the we need.
We need to keep fighting and if
we're going to keep fighting,
we've got to believe.
And we've got to build a future
that's worth fighting for.
Finally, I want to come back to
something that we were talking
about when we were planning this
panel 'cause you were trying to
think of what the X-Men what?
The the X-men's closest metaphor or
role in current political classes and
intersections would be based on what they do.
Yeah, yeah, I did.
You come up with any conclusions
'cause I'm still just trying
to figure out who is forces.
Well, so people talk about heroes.
As you know the better thing as
the better option. And if we take
the premise that X-Men are heroes.
Here's what they are there people
who look at things and look at
folks who present direct threats.
To the safety. And dignity.
Of other humans, whether they are,
whether they're baseline humans or mutants.
And who confront them?
Nonviolently when they can,
and violently when,
that's the way to do it in ways
that are about minimizing harm.
And minimizing general harm,
but ultimately about.
Neutralizing that particular thread.
Hi quite alright but alright.
Alright, and so yeah with so again.
We're not saying that is
the only right solution.
We're not saying the X-Men are always right,
the X-Men are wrong. A lot.
Next door on whole lot,
and the X-Men are inconsistently written.
What we are saying is that
if you're a superhero fan,
if you're a superhero comics creator for
someone who talks about superheroes so
useful to look at what the characters
you idealize do and how they interact.
With the things they face
and the things they support.
And if you're reading those comics now
and talking about those comics now,
it's essential to do that.
You have to.
It's yeah,
because the mutant revolution is here.
Whether we're ready for it or not sometimes.
It's just sort of what's necessary.
And with that it being alive episode
we always try to have questions.
So if anybody wants to ask a thing about
expert in politics or just men in general,
it doesn't have to be specific
to this individual topic.
There's a microphone right
there and you totally should.
If you cannot get to the
microphone and have a question,
raise your hand and we will make
sure that the microphone gets to you.
We should also say if you have
detailed continuity questions,
we are able to answer the stuff
that we do on the podcast because
we are research monsters.
If you have a question that
we cannot answer on hand,
we will post the answer on line
or answer it in a later episode.
But it might be that we need
to look some stuff up.
And we have one to Maximoff in the front.
Yes, that was a brave continuity choice.
She's really complex.
She's really intense and awesome
headpiece on powers, alright?
Alright,
so I was going to ask kind of confused.
Alright, I was going to.
A little confused of a question
that I was going to ask about.
The ways in which.
The X-Men are presented as the the pacifist.
Liberal response, even when what
they're actually doing is not.
I would not describe it as
nonviolent necessarily know.
Yeah, they are.
They're going and starting fights,
but they are getting are jumping into fights.
So what do you think about the way
that expend potentially provides a?
A window, potentially a problematic
window for people from the from
from different political views
to think that they understand.
I mean part of it is of course
just that it's a superhero comic,
and so people are.
People are just going to punch
in a superhero comic.
But yeah,
when you get down to it when you
look at Xavier's dream as being
one of peaceful coexistence,
it can get a little weird at first glance,
totally.
I think the X-Men are a great window too.
To discover discovering cognitive dissonance.
Of looking at something and
how it doesn't line up because
you're absolutely right,
and I think I think in terms
of what they represent there,
that that inconsistency,
which is super common super present.
Hello yes hello I was wondering
if you guys were mutants,
what kind of powers or what would
you look like oh man I mean OK so
I thought about this definitely I
know we both have surprising no one.
What kind would we want?
Or what kind would we have
based on like personality,
current attributes,
'cause those are two different questions.
Both OK, alright so for me if I could
choose a mutant power Madrox easy the whole
the whole like fear of missing out thing.
Well clearly the solution is to have
like 40 of you around the world
doing a bunch of different things.
I would want to be able to manipulate
my personal interactions with time to be
able to slow down or speed up that be
handy I would get **** done would be great.
I also I don't know Anna more
like internal parts light.
That I'd be actually if I if I'm
not going to be practical and just
talk about what I want.
Flight absolutely hands down.
Then you can just carry me around awkwardly
in my shoulders would come out and join,
you know, how did that never happen?
Like when Angel carries people,
they work out a lot.
OK, really strong lads.
I always on a more personal level.
I always really,
really like longshots powers and for
those for people who are unfamiliar,
he has incredibly good luck like
supernaturally good which are
based on his intentions.
As long as he believes
he's doing the right thing,
things tend to work out and that
is such an appealing concept.
The idea that you can just care so
hard that reality rewrites itself.
I mean, it's beautiful, it's impossible,
but man what a world that would be right.
Ha.
You can't tell 'cause I'm wearing sunglasses,
but I'm side eyeing you.
That's fair, that's fair.
OK, so since we're talking politics this
time I have a representation question.
My familiarity with the X-Men
is largely the 90s cartoon,
and then you all for a couple years now.
And what I'm wondering,
we have with queer characters explicitly in.
In in universe,
but are there any trans characters
or gender nonconforming characters
that you're aware of that are
Canon and follow up question?
Is it terrible and sad?
OK, the answer to that is that X
men and superheroes in general
have fallen down real ****.
** trans representation there are
gender nonconforming characters
who are not particularly written
as generally gender nonconforming.
I will say at this point to that
gender nonconforming is a broad
broad descriptor so there are a lot
of characters who I would describe
as not conforming to traditional
gender roles or stereotypes,
but who are probably cisgender
identifying characters.
It is an element of mystiques
characterization that I would love
to see explored more textually.
There is Cloud who is a from the
defender is an arguably genderqueer
character in the defenders.
There's there are.
I have really mixed feelings about
describing saving as trans representation
mostly conservative from runaways.
Even a character who like.
Zavin shows to change their
gender presentation based on.
Someone based on Caroline's sexual
orientation and as far as I know,
continued to identify primarily
as male during that actually is,
and I might be missing things.
I haven't read all of runaways.
I've read most of it and it's been awhile,
so I feel like.
Yeah, I feel like X-Men Ann has just
massively massively missed that and
missed those opportunities and been
behind or had the only characters
who represented gender nonconformity.
Significant or or?
Or gender divergents be characters
for whom it was part of the memory
shape shifters or something like that,
or aliens or something like that.
Yeah, we definitely it's sad and it's
****** and it makes me really angry.
And actually in the audience
you raise your hand.
If an example to if you miss somebody.
Actual.
But it's there.
I mean OK, yeah, OK, that's something yes,
I haven't read the series, that's awesome.
That's a start. There is.
But yeah. Otherwise,
I mean you're going to have to go to
Fannin or personal Canon for that,
which is a huge ***. **** shame.
Yeah. I mean, I hope we get there.
We're certainly seeing way more
queer characters in X-Men these days.
But X-men's always been like a little
bit behind where it should be.
Or times a lot behind where it should be.
So yeah, let's see some transaction
come on like why would you not?
You had a question about how you'd
like to see like X-Men represent
social issues like the two examples.
I was thinking over like Miss Marvel
currently and like Ex Machina like
would you like to see like more?
I mean obviously more like representation
and intersectionality but like.
I guess X-Men directly addressing
like current politics like outside
of the mutant metaphor,
like identifying with other
minority groups like at what point?
There's obviously only so much you can
do with that in something that's not
being produced in simultaneous real time.
Yes, consumer created so much
before they come out.
And honestly,
if there's anything we've learned from 2017,
it's that it can always get worse in
real weird directions, real abruptly.
What I think would solve a lot
of my problems here.
Is.
A version of X men in which Mutant
doesn't automatically erase all
other vectors of identity or become
the primary vector of identity.
I would like to see mutants talking about.
I mean, again,
I will go back to disability
rights as an issue, but I would.
I would like to see mutants addressing
immigration issues because they are a
largely international team and there
are largely international team with
members who are likely to be seen
as threats and along those lines.
I mean it would also just be
read to see an X men book.
It's not just about people
that punched the bad guys.
I mean I love seeing punching bad
guys don't run a few and there it
seeing it focus for not going out.
That would be amazing.
Seeing 1A group of justice activists,
politicians, public relations,
people like having the focus of an expert,
that would be rad.
Again this is I mentioned previously
at the beginning.
I'm gonna bring it full circle
and his imaginary.
What if universe where you
know Cyclops State?
In journalism,
PPW Red we're getting really
close to the end,
but I think we can get both
questions were fast, yes?
Weirdly intimidating,
we're all we're all here for you.
One of my favorite moments in all of
X-Men history is Cyclops and Whedon's
astonishing run in that one issue when you
know they're complaining about the tights.
Wolverines complain about the tights,
and he says, like we have to astonish them.
Meaning, like we sort of have
to embrace like being heroes?
Yeah, which is so easy to identify
in a comic book because they're
wearing bright colors or they're
swinging from from rooftops?
What like, what's the thing like, what?
How do we be heroic?
Well, my favorite Cyclops moment
in Whedon's astonishing run.
Is when he reads Professor Xavier the
riot act on Genosha about abusing danger.
And I think the ways that we can
do that is wearing those colors.
Having those things that give us
the semiotics of being heroes.
I think this is especially important
if you are someone who is in a
position of visible privilege.
If you are that guy I described
at the beginning of the panel.
If you are someone to whom people
who don't listen to.
A lot of us are likely to hear and
take seriously to stand up where those
symbols and say this is what this means,
and to have those
uncomfortable conversations.
I mean, nobody likes telling a
relative that there are racist ask,
but if you can then do so.
I mean do it nicely,
because if that works then do
it relative well, yeah,
relatively nicely.
But also listen identify with
the people who aren't.
You say this is an intelligence.
I don't have a frame of reference with
this as someone whose experiences
I cannot directly speak to.
But I believe them,
and I believe their ability to
assess their own needs, their own,
and their own experiences.
Thank you and we have time for one more.
Fun one day and out on hopefully.
What are your hopes and fears for
the upcoming new Minions movie?
I hope Danny shows back up in the books.
Yes. Oh I love merage yes. Oh dude.
So I am so stupidly excited about this movie.
I know I should be cautious.
I know if I open myself up they can
hurt me but. The director is it?
Josh Boone.
Yeah, the interviews I've seen with him,
he seems to really get new mutants.
He seems really familiar,
and so if it can bring in, I mean,
yes,
I know there's there's the sun
spot casting thing,
and that was a little iffy.
Everyone wants to make sense so much wider,
but yeah,
if they can keep that kind of
diversity of background but also
just have a bunch of teenagers
who are coming from different
backgrounds and clashing with each
other and understanding each other,
have it feel like teenagers.
Have it feel like have it feel that level
of stormy and that level of important.
Yeah,
we've seen with the X-Men we
have seen the hero stuff.
We've seen the cool,
stylish stuff we've seen the everyone
is gritty and wears leather stuff.
We've seen the big epic fights.
I want an X men movie that shows us that
God family yes exactly and we're totally
out of time, so I guess we should.
Thank you, I'm not quite done with.
Outro so this special live episode
of Jay and Miles explain the X-Men
has been recorded in Portland OR
at Rose City Comic Con.
We are ordinarily produced by Kurt Loyd,
but today our producer Emeritus Kailia out
of Kaiju cast is stepping in to fill in.
Style. New episodes of our show come
out Sundays on iTunes Stitcher.
Google Planet explained the X-Men at dot com.
Check out explain the xmen.com for extra
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And our show is totally listener supported.
If you'd like to be one of those folks,
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explain the xmen.com and also thank
you to those of you who turned out.
Yes, if you were here to those of
you who support us on Patreon,
but also just those of you who support
us by listening and by talking and
being part of the conversation.
And giving us an audience where we
feel like we can sit on stage and say
the things that we said today and have
those conversations and have stuck
with us through a pretty weird year.
Yeah,
we mentioned we mentioned at the
party last night that if you've been
here from the start when you started
listening we were married and my
name was Rachel.
So thanks for seeing us through
a lot of stuff.
It's actually made a huge difference.
Yes, you are phenomenal.
We love you so much.
Thank you.
And yes,
thank you all so much for being here.
This has been awesome.
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