111038-rant-removal-of-timers-overdue

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Hey and thanks for checking out this thread.
 
Last month around this time, the petion thread demanding carbine to rethink
their dungeon timer policy got closed with the argument= we are on it.
 
Now one major patch, several hotfixes and a gamescom later, we still are unable to access endgame 
content, if we havent massively(!) exploited skullcano before fix.
 
Not only does carbine keep on torturing their legit players that played the content normaly, no they rather fix pvp ratings and white items.
Yes I do see how carbine has 18 months of (artifically) prolonged content ready from release.If im unable to get into raiding, I got no other choice then turning to existing "apropriate" and doable content rather than progressing towards raiding.
 
At this point and I doubt I'm alone on this, I don't see the point in starting the game until you fix the timers and to whoever wants to claim " I've got it done with my superpro guild after exploit has been fixed" trust me when i say it's not down to trying it not often enough.
 
 
Give us an ETA so i know how long i can freeze my subscription, cause at this rate im not supporting any second rate fixes while you put a wall in front of my motivation to even play this game. its one thing to offer hardcore content its another to decline accessibility to any of it.
 
 
Thanks for bearing with my i hope reasonable ranting
Eo	
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			You are already right where hardcore endgame content begins, its called attunement. There is no wall in front of it, you can get at it right away. This is not WoW where Dungeons are just super easy. This is Wildstar, where hardcore already starts in 5 man content. So you actually can access the hardcore stuff earlier than in other games. Hope i could help you :)	
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			Not sure how successful you expect to be in a raid if you can't clear skullcano without exploiting.	
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Not sure how successful you expect to be in a raid if you can't clear skullcano without exploiting.
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There's a huge difference between raiding and doing perfect runs in 5 man dungeons.  So much so that there's actual breathing room in raiding, but zero breathing room in attunement (dungeon step)
 
If all you had to do was clear the dungeons (which is what it's being changed to) that's one thing, but unless you're severely over geared for it you're entire party has to pull off practically perfect runs while skipping more base pop than not.
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			Since when did a players lack of skill become a barrier to content.  Hey if you cant complete the dungeons then you are the only barrier to the content.	
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Rhetorical question here. If you can't beat all the dungeons fast enough to get a silver, how exactly do you expect to fare against Experiment X-89? 
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			Dude, if you can't perfect run silver, you will be stuck on thrash in raid. end of the discussion	
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Dude, if you can't perfect run silver, you will be stuck on thrash in raid. end of the discussion
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If you cannot beat the dungeons with at least a silver (until they change it to bronze) - you do not deserve to raid. You shoudnt have to exploit any boss in the dungeons. They are too easy.
 
Rune your gear. Learn to interupt and what to interupt, blow mobs up during their MOO. Only pull mobs you need to clear/complete dungeon quests. Communicate with your 5 man on i rupt rotations. Run 3 irupts on every player except Tank (some run three).
 
PRACTICE THE DUNGEON without paying attention to the timer a few times to get a feel for what needs to be done. Then speed up and chain pull - then execute.
 
The timers give you AMPLE time to complete the dungeons on silver. If you cannot do this - you do not deserve to be in GA.
 
FFS. This game requres execution. If you are not executing right you fail. Maybe the OP needs to quit and go to an easier game where they hold your hand.
 
EDIT: Maybe they should be allowed into GA. Then their guild will break-up because they cannot EXECUTE an encounter correctly, then complain that GA is too hard.	
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			I agree it's overdue. But luckily my casual guild has a system in place for bumping people through the dungeons. But it's a huge pain in the ass to get people through SSM with the right path, the non buggy optionals... 12 people past or at world boss stage. We could very well be raiding before the changes are made. But it would make it easier for us to bring more people in for 40 man raiding down the line.	
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"You don't deserve to raid"
 
This player base is a source of endless amusement for me.
 
If you bothered to read what he is saying rather than trying to jump on your UBER HORSE from the get go you might see his point. 
 
HARDCORE BRO!!!  	
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Dude, if you can't perfect run silver, you will be stuck on thrash in raid. end of the discussion
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I do believe those changes might be coming with the next big drop instead of a patch.
I don't know what's so hard about removing the silver requirement from the attunement list but thing are as they are.	
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I don't know what's so hard about removing the silver requirement from the attunement list but thing are as they are.
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I got 3/4 silvers in 5 days(LFD Pugging #hardcore #getatme)I still agree that the change is overdue. They should have never been in the game in the 1st place. Regardless of whether you got gold, silver, bronze or no medal at all you still had to perfect the mechanics of the bosses to get a clear.	
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Remember, we've already seen world boss attunement progress getting completely reset due to... reasons.
And it couldn't be fixed short of simply giving everyone who was on that step a free pass.
Apparently.
We don't want a repeat of that with the dungeon step, do we?
The quest system is extremely fragile and demands to be handled with the appropriate care... :rolleyes:
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I got 3/4 silvers in 5 days. I still agree that the change is overdue. They should have never been in the game in the 1st place. Regardless of whether you got gold, silver, bronze or no medal at all you still had to perfect the mechanics of the bosses to get a clear.
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Why do I have a feeling another month will still result in something breaking? Lol.
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Maybe so, but they have to try, don't they?
A patch right now... I would predict a break probability of exactly 100%.
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yeah but let's be honest here.
 
When have they dropped a patch (big or small) that didn't break something else either associated with the patch, or completely separate?
 
Even those tiny little express patches / hotfixes have a record of breaking more things than they fix.
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Yeah well... I'm just saying I understand the logic in the team's heads behind delaying.
Would you, in their shoes, go "hey, we know this most likely won't work as we haven't checked the code all that much, but we'll push it to live anyway!" ?
Probably not, you'd instead do what they're doing while praying "maybe this time will be different, we put in all those weeks of extra effort...".
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Yeah well... I'm just saying I understand the logic in the team's heads behind delaying.
Would you, in their shoes, go "hey, we know this most likely won't work as we haven't checked the code all that much, but we'll push it to live anyway!" ?
Probably not, you'd instead do what they're doing while praying "maybe this time will be different, we put in all those weeks of extra effort...".
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I know.
 
I was personally making a cynical joke.
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Well I wasn't quoting you this time
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Rhetorical question here. If you can't beat all the dungeons fast enough to get a silver, how exactly do you expect to fare against Experiment X-89? 
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			vet dungeons are not that hard, it took me two tries to do skullcano and sword madien the other two were 1st time in them ever clears with silver. And we did wipe a few times and still got silver, just need good comunication. Not to mention I'm a tank too	
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			I can't but think... maybe this isn't the game for you	
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(just to be sure it's clear) The timers are not being removed from silver medals--the attunement process is being changed to require Bronze instead.
 
We are currently planning for those changes to be included in the next drop.	
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The timers are not being removed
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"You don't deserve to raid"
 
This player base is a source of endless amusement for me.
 
If you bothered to read what he is saying rather than trying to jump on your UBER HORSE from the get go you might see his point. 
 
HARDCORE BRO!!!  
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Ok, I will try to elaborate my point. Don't get me wrong: I welcome the change from silver to bronze. I just disagree with people saying THAT's what is blocking them from progressing.
 
1st: The silver attunement was in fact no meant to *gate* people, but to give a end goal to EVERYBODY. You prolly already seen somewhere on this forum people saying: what am I suppose to do now? The attunement process was to put a goal to everybody. What's the difference really in running 100time a Vet to get silver and a 100time to complete a raid. The difference is the dedication (or skill for some person but I'm not saying dedicated people are god and other suck). It was suppose to motivate less dedicated people to work toward a goal, as dedicated guild were working toward a different goal (due to more time investment).
 
2nd: When I say you need to be able to run silver to go to raid, what I really mean (i know people here hate when you rephrase what you say but whatever) is: The game is trying to tell you that the raid is not for you. The game want you to stay at the level of content you actually are right now, and improve. Basicly like school. If the system think you are not ready to progress to the next year, they make you re-do a year to make sure you understand everything you need.
 
3th: I don't want no hate. Me, what I want, is people accept that there is different content for different type of people. No hate, just love man	
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That's a shame, because timers do not equate to good mechanics.
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Yeah, I sure Thumbs up more people getting attuned.
I just can't imagine how frustrating it probably is for the developers, knowing that people just don't get what they wanted to do with the game.	
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2nd: When I say you need to be able to run silver to go to raid, what I really mean (i know people here hate when you rephrase what you say but whatever) is: The game is trying to tell you that the raid is not for you. The game want you to stay at the level of content you actually are right now, and improve. Basicly like school. If the system think you are not ready to progress to the next year, they make you re-do a year to make sure you understand everything you need.
 
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Yeah, I sure Thumbs up more people getting attuned.
I just can't imagine how frustrating it probably is for the developers, knowing that people just don't get what they wanted to do with the game.
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But it doesn't do that, at all.  A better put your analogy, it would be like being held back from advancing because you were late to class one day, or because you had a 3.99 GPA instead of a perfect 4.0  That's not how the real world works.  
 
How is speed running a dungeon a sign of being a good raider?  Surely clearing the dungeon would be enough.  Afterall, you still have to work and put effort into clearing the dungeons.  Adding an artificial gate (the timer system) in NO WAY WHATSOEVER has anything to do with being a good raider.  In fact, it actually hinders a lot of players in that you get the "rush to get it done" mentality, which will cause more mistakes than if you take your time.
 
Maybe, MAYBE if one of the raids had some sort of "kill the first half of the bosses in under 30 minutes and a special room will open to reach Bonus Boss 1!" but they don't.  There's no time requirements anywhere else in the group PvE game.  None in raiding, none in adventures, none in shiphand missions.  So why is it there for the dungeons part of attunement?
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Arkillo -> I'm not sure that my analogy should be change to: if you are late, you fail. The timer is something else completly. The timer make you be constant. You can be lucky and get 1 done, but unless you become really constant, you will have a hard time clearing the 4 dungeon. To stick with my school analogy, let's say you have 4 exam in a semester. and you need an average of 70% to be accepted to the university. Even if you have 90% on the first test and do the minimum (60% where i'm from) on the other 3, you won't be accepted to the university you want. You will have to redo 1 semester to upgrade your mark.
 
And your opinion as to what the Dev are thinking is as valid as mine. We can't read their mind. I'm part of the game industry too (working for Ubisoft Montreal, but not a Dev, just a small time programmer) and I can garantee you that if the Dev are even just a tiny bit involve in their game (they should be), they probably are very sad of all the negativity in the forum, about people complaining about EVERY choice they have make. Attunement is not an idea that didn't work (cuz the system work just great), it's an idea that got destoyed by the community. It's like painting something then showing it to the world and half the people tell you: why the $^$#%@ would you paint that?  	
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			Anyone think that they're trying to enforce some urgency/stress... god knows in raids there is lots of that and getting numb to it through silvers might help :)	
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Yeah, I sure Thumbs up more people getting attuned.
I just can't imagine how frustrating it probably is for the developers, knowing that people just don't get what they wanted to do with the game.
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To all the people saying "If you dont silver you shouldnt raid".
Let's put timers on raids, and see you complain about how that isn't the right thing to do.
 
Yeah I thought so.	
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I'm going to completely honest with you. I understand the casual players grievances with wanting to be able to get in raids without requiring to do silver dungeons. And I'm going to be as blunt as possible without overly insulting you. If you can not do a silver dungeon (SILVER... as in NOT gold.. SILVER).. you WILL NOT be able to raid. If you think there is more breathing room in GA than there is in a silver run, you have never raided in WildStar. You simply can NOT screw up in a raid. That's why some people get so exhausted with raiding. 20 people in a raid, and if any one of them do not play with absolute perfection, you will not get your first kill. I've done all of the silver dungeons long before any nerfs or time extentions. Skullcano being one of the easier ones. If you cant get that down, you'll very likely never even get past a mini boss in GA. You say you don't like how you have to have good enough gear to clear a silver, yet you clearly aren't aware of the BiS preraid gear you need to have to do GA.
 
TLDR; If you can't do a silver dungeon, you will do absolutely nothing but wipe your raid team. WildStar is not exactly a game where you can be "carried".	
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TLDR; If you can't do a silver dungeon, you will do absolutely nothing but wipe your raid team. WildStar is not exactly a game where you can be "carried".
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To all the people saying "If you dont silver you shouldnt raid".
Let's put timers on raids, and see you complain about how that isn't the right thing to do.
 
Yeah I thought so.
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I want to sit and pick my nose for a minute before we start on a boss. Hey they started, we wipe, we miss silver.
 
In a Raid it's fine. One minute is nothing.
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I love how this has turned into another Hardcores complaining and trying to puff their chests out.
The changes are happening. Deal with it.	
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			Changes are happening. That's fine. Then you're going to raid.. and complain about how the raids are impossible and they need to be nerfed... Step after step into the game, everything will be too hard for you. And you will never be satisfied. There is no puffing of chests. But some people are not complete idiots and prefer a challenge. Where as others are still getting rolled in dungeons that are PUGed. The raids wont get easier. Cheating your way through attunement is just rushing you to realizing how big of a waste of time you just committed to. Even if you try to join a guild to get carried, you're going to get removed after you wipe the raid 5 straight times. The raids will not get nerfed to faceroll levels just to accommodate your incompetence.	
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It's been said 55 times already but I'll just join the crowd:
 
If you can't silver dungeons, you'll never get past Kuralak.	
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Changes are happening. That's fine. Then you're going to raid.. and complain about how the raids are impossible and they need to be nerfed... Step after step into the game, everything will be too hard for you. And you will never be satisfied. There is no puffing of chests. But some people are not complete idiots and prefer a challenge. Where as others are still getting rolled in dungeons that are PUGed. The raids wont get easier. Cheating your way through attunement is just rushing you to realizing how big of a waste of time you just committed to. Even if you try to join a guild to get carried, you're going to get removed after you wipe the raid 5 straight times :/
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To all the people saying "If you dont silver you shouldnt raid".
Let's put timers on raids, and see you complain about how that isn't the right thing to do.
 
Yeah I thought so.
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Only you're assuming an awful lot about me. And you're wrong.
 
I'm fully attuned for GA. I'm ready to raid, but I need 19 more people to raid with.
And the simple fact of the matter is people do NOT want to even try timed instances. And the game is bleeding out players at an alarming rate. Unless you're perfectly fine raiding on your own...?
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Not a direct assumption about you. However, if people can not complete current silver dungeons, it can be fairly assumed that A) they are not capable of staying out of red stuff. and B ) They do not have high enough dps to complete said silver dungeon. If you do not have the required DPS to complete a silver dungeon (which, despite everyones crying, is INCREDIBLY easy. Most can be 3 manned), you definitely dont have the required DPS to raid. Yes, there is a minimum dps requirement to kill X-89. Hell, there's even a minimum dps requirement to kill the mini bosses. And Kuralak? Forget about that. If you meet the dps requirement to kill X-89, silver dungeons would literally be a breeze. So reducing the requirement to get attuned will cause absolutely nothing but more crying.
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I love how this has turned into another Hardcores complaining and trying to puff their chests out.
The changes are happening. Deal with it.
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			Are n't they already doing this ? Clam down you will have your medal	
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Not a direct assumption about you. However, if people can not complete current silver dungeons, it can be fairly assumed that A) they are not capable of staying out of red stuff. and B ) They do not have high enough dps to complete said silver dungeon. If you do not have the required DPS to complete a silver dungeon (which, despite everyones crying, is INCREDIBLY easy. Most can be 3 manned), you definitely dont have the required DPS to raid.
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To all the people saying "If you dont silver you shouldnt raid".
Let's put timers on raids, and see you complain about how that isn't the right thing to do.
 
Yeah I thought so.
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your post assumes that everyone exploited skullcano, and I can tell you, that many raiders did not even know of this exploit when we were first getting our silvers and getting attuned.
 
If you get over the mentality that the timers are impossible, you will overcome them.  The silver timers for dungeons in this game are actually very generous.	
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Dude, if you can't perfect run silver, you will be stuck on thrash in raid. end of the discussion
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The silver medal requirement is not just a check on boss mechanics, it is also a check to see how well one can function within a group.  To do a dungeon quickly you must communicate with your party and have some prior knowledge of the instance and fights.  Both of those are required during raids.  Think about LFR in WoW or just LFG in most games.  Once players experience the content enough mechanics become second nature, a group may complete the content but nowhere near efficiently enough to be competitive in a tough raid environment.  
I am just beginning my dungeon attunement and am actually excited that silver is currently required.  If one is determined to raid I don't believe learning a dungeons optimal path (at least in relation to time) and completing boss fights without wiping multiple times is really too much to ask of a player looking to enjoy the last bit of content the game currently has to offer players.  I agree the timers are frustrating, but after running my first dungeons (after spending a lot of time saving plat to buy the best crafted gear I could with the best slots, rune's that are fairly expensive, and perfecting my rotation and build) it doesn't seem impossible by any stretch.
 
I am as impatient as everyone else to get into raids, but I also enjoy the challenge in reaching them.  I came to this game because WoW offered zero challenge anymore for the content I had time to experience.  But W* is always challenging me and when I prevail it is a much more exciting feeling than anything I felt in the last two WoW expacs.  Also W* combat is so much fun, especially when it comes to PvP.	
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TLDR; If you can't do a silver dungeon, you will do absolutely nothing but wipe your raid team. WildStar is not exactly a game where you can be "carried".
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... and again, having silver in dungeons doesn't tell you about that person's skill level. Not when you can get carried through. Except for a few mechanics, if you have a warrior or engi pull 7k or 8k DPS the other two DPS could be dead on the floor the whole fight and everyone would still get silver.
 
You could tell more about a person's skill if you see them e.g. solo the CB daily area, including the spider queen, Rotter, and the (Exile) Dregg holdout. That tells you if they know how to dodge, if they have sufficient skill to interrupt, high enough DPS, know when to heal, and all that.
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Edit: written from phone, bear with the minor interpunctation and spelling mistakes 
 
 
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Rhetorical question here. If you can't beat all the dungeons fast enough to get a silver, how exactly do you expect to fare against Experiment X-89?
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All I know is that they are BLEEDING players every day they don't implement this.  Folks are getting to 50 and finding no reason to log in.  The artificial gate of the Silver runs are one thing.  The lack of any kind of meaningful gear progression is another.   AMP/ability points
 
The thing is, they've already figured out these issues.  I have watched the Nexus report and I see they get it.  They are just taking WAY too long to implement the changes.  Will there be anyone left to care when they roll these changes out?	
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All I know is that they are BLEEDING players every day they don't implement this. Folks are getting to 50 and finding no reason to log in. The artificial gate of the Silver runs are one thing. The lack of any kind of meaningful gear progression is another. AMP/ability points
 
The thing is, they've already figured out these issues. I have watched the Nexus report and I see they get it. They are just taking WAY too long to implement the changes. Will there be anyone left to care when they roll these changes out?
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This community is one of the worst(!) that I've encountered in my entire mmo life, offending people, ninja looting(basically anything in dungeons) and their elitist arrogance let's me only deduct those people are either mentally challenged or haven't grown any pubics just yet.
 
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Now can anyone tell me, why it's so hard to improvise and change the timer to +20 or 30minutes or heck just set the time to 500? I'm by no means a programmer, but the timer value has been adjusted before, why nor simply raise it MORE for now??
 
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This isn't possible because you're misunderstanding the planned fix.
The timer for silver isn't getting removed, the requirement for attunement is being nerfed to bronze medal (which has no timer at all).
Raising the timer to 500 or whatever would devalue silver medals.
 
I don't know why/how the bronze requirement change takes so much time, but it's just not the same as changing numbers.
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Well in the future, gold medals will get you amp/ability points, which is quite a nice reward. Also they're supposedly planning to put more good medal gear on the elder gem vendor.
Anyway yeah, after the bronze nerf, getting silver will be pretty worthless, true.
But then again, getting bronze is worthless now. Those extra loot rolls? Meh.
 
As a temporary fix, your suggestion could be okay I guess, but I doubt they'd consider it. Oh well.
 
The whole system isn't exactly ideal... *sigh*	
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Well in the future, gold medals will get you amp/ability points, which is quite a nice reward. Also they're supposedly planning to put more good medal gear on the elder gem vendor.
Anyway yeah, after the bronze nerf, getting silver will be pretty worthless, true.
But then again, getting bronze is worthless now. Those extra loot rolls? Meh.
 
As a temporary fix, your suggestion could be okay I guess, but I doubt they'd consider it. Oh well.
 
The whole system isn't exactly ideal... *sigh*
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If you cannot beat the dungeons with at least a silver (until they change it to bronze) - you do not deserve to raid. 
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Edit: written from phone, bear with the minor interpunctation and spelling mistakes
 
 
 
 
Hey nazin, pretty easy from what I see it's a simple bossfight i doubt I'll face any difficulties with. My self confidence on the matter originates from the fact i know im on par or better with people that got past dungeon step and killed it in my guild.
 
 
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I totally agree with this, but it's very interesting, that those players that are still attracted and defending wildstar, are those impolite people, telling you it's your fault and how easy it is for them to do anything.
 
This community is one of the worst(!) that I've encountered in my entire mmo life, offending people, ninja looting(basically anything in dungeons) and their elitist arrogance let's me only deduct those people are either mentally challenged or haven't grown any pubics just yet.
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			I guess I am in the minority here, but I personally want the challenge of silver dungeons.  I am almost done with my rep grind now, but I look forward to vet dungeons honestly.  Granted I am making sure I have the gear and runes necessary to run these in decent fashion. I have come across people who have hit 50 and never even did a regular dungeon.  That's mindboggling to me personally.  I think these are the people who are in for a rude awakening.  Especially when you run vet adventures for gold and your like "oh man I'm a beast." Its sad that people aren't willing to even try and or practice to complete a silver run just want everything handed to them.  I am up for the challenge and will probably be back in a week or two begging for them to drop the silver requirement, but at least I gave it a shot :D	
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"You don't deserve to raid"
 
This player base is a source of endless amusement for me.
 
If you bothered to read what he is saying rather than trying to jump on your UBER HORSE from the get go you might see his point. 
 
HARDCORE BRO!!!
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They are meeting you halfway. *shrug*
 
End Result:
 
*More people will get attuned.
                  
      *Silver actually starts to become more common because more people know the mechanics.
 
 
 
Take the deal.
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I'm not asking them to change anything other than removing timers. Players should not be punished for taking their time, and rushing through content should not be rewarded/encouraged. Players who want to farm rewards will rush content on their own, without blatant encouragement to do so by the Devs.
 
I'm not even particularly concerned with Attunement; I'm simply opposed to timers being implemented in the reward system in general. Therefore the deal that you're telling me to take is not "meeting me halfway."
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I agree Vick.. but at the same time there ARE punishments for taking your time in raiding in W*. If the point of attunement is to prepare players for raids, then it would logically follow that coordination and completeing content within a time frame woudl be one aspect of attunement.
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You make a good point, and I can't really disagree that it presents a logical progression.
 
I'll just keep hoping for their complete removal. I'm just stubborn like that. :rolleyes:
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If I may be so bold, I would actually prefer to see the opposite of timers in raids.
 
in the Touhou Bullet Hell series (example on Lunatic mode); there are two main ways to defeat bosses. You can take their health down a set amount to end their 'spell cards' and progress, or you can simply survive the spell cards for a certain amount of time.
 
This works in Touhou because even on easy, the spell cards are incredibly hard to survive. If Raid bosses had telegraph sets as difficult as Touhou's spell cards, it would be quite cool to have a 'pacifist option' where if your group survives for lets say, 1:30 min on a preposterously intense telegraph pattern, that automatically progresses your team on the fight.
 
At least, I think that would be a pretty interesting thing to see. Maybe have most of a boss be classic tank n spank / raid mechanics, then at a certian point you just have to survive something nasty with a countdown.  
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