126784-feedback-f2p-announcement-faq-page-12

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8, Page 9, Page 10, Page 11, Page 12, Page 13
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
It all depends on how much money it costs to get how much farther ahead of someone who isn't paying the money. The label doesn't stick if most people actually playing the game don't see a decisive edge going to people who are outspending them. It does if it's completely obvious that the people who pay are getting an edge.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I mean honeslty, using Wildstar as an example, if I just started the game, hypothetically, today, as does Player B.  And Player B has an option to pay to jump right to the end of the game and have full top-tier raid gear; so be it, their money, their choice, and their decision to omit and miss out on the entirety of the game, the content therein, and the enjoyment to be had (which is also why it blows my mind why so many players race directly to the end of a game, never do any side pursuits/quests/venues, grind themselves out, then claim whatever game is boring with zero content).  Their decision in no way impacts my play experience directly (I play games for the enjoyment of the game, the gameplay, the mechanics, the story, the lore, the environments, etc; not to race others, not to make it all about competition, not to be "realm first", etc) -- it might indirectly via the economy imbalance since certain players will have "first dibs" at end-game content/loot... which is something that went across my mind when it came to the head-start, or lack thereof, but that's a different tale all together I suppose. ^_^  (Heck, even WoW could be seen as Pay2Win, by certain standards, since you now can buy instant player-level 90 for outright cash.)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The thing is, it does matter to you whether you know it or not, and this game is a great example of why. There was no better sign that this game was floundering than the way the PvP here withered and died and the developers clearly had no plan for even how to go anywhere near it. Even if you personally don't PvP, most players dabble in it and it's flat-out expected that a viable AAA-MMORPG will have it working at least to some degree. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I mean, as far as it mattering to me, no, it really doesn't.  PvP might flounder, and the PvPers might get mad at the devs and leave, and sure it'll yank down the population, even cause this game to go f2p... but again, that's a matter for the devs/publishers/etc, not for me personally. :D  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The sheer volume of text you've put up on these forums suggests otherwise.  :D
 
Will you find another game if this one crashes and burns? Sure. Most of us will. But that's no reason to pretend that we're not all here discussing this stuff because we would like to see games get it right.
----
			Just wondering since I don't see it explained anywhere, will the servers we have now be the f2p beta servers sans wipe? or will they be a totally new server set with a wipe included?	
----
			
Neither of the sort.
 
The entire game itself is going F2P, meaning the requirements to have an active account are being nullified.
 
There will be no wipe or new server dedicated ect.
You will no longer be required to pay for anything, and you will be subjected to the limitations of what you do pay for.	
----
			
I'mma speculate and assume that the F2P beta accounts would play on the same servers as everyone else, just those accounts would have the F2P restrictions/limitations. 
 
Just limiting F2P account access so there's a small-ish sample of F2P players to check everything's okay. 
 
[/baseless speculation]	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just wondering since I don't see it explained anywhere, will the servers we have now be the f2p beta servers sans wipe? or will they be a totally new server set with a wipe included?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Or we're just here because as the thread suggests, the game is going f2p, and will be able to get what's rightfully due without it being locked behind a price-tag/pay-wall.
----
			Have they released anything about loyalty reward for staying subbed unthil F2P? Cause I'm bored as *cupcake*  and dont realy wanna stay subbed atm, but if I loose out on something big i might just stick around...	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have they released anything about loyalty reward for staying subbed unthil F2P? Cause I'm bored as *cupcake* and dont realy wanna stay subbed atm, but if I loose out on something big i might just stick around...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have they released anything about loyalty reward for staying subbed unthil F2P? Cause I'm bored as *cupcake*  and dont realy wanna stay subbed atm, but if I loose out on something big i might just stick around...
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Man I don't really like using this word, but if ever there was a sentence emblematic of false entitlement (hah I used it correctly) in video games... this is it. "We are rightfully due a game for FREE that developers spent years on and continue to invest time and money in!" -_-;
----
			
Anyone with an ounce of sense recognizes that an MMO is an ever-changing game landscape. To cry foul over some design decisions that displeased some players and then expect the game to be given to them for free from now on is utterly unreasonable. It's a shame Carbine capitulated (likely from NCSoft decisions, but who knows).
 
Attunement has never made raids unreachable, and this was even less so come drop 3 (IIRC, that was the drop that knocked dungeon medal requirements down to bronze). PvP has been a mess in the past, yes, but like MMOs do, that is continually being addressed, changed, improved. Your "recollections" of people deleting/rerolling characters because they became unrecoverably stuck on something are doubtful at best. There were a few quests that were bugged, but there's never been a bug that prevented one from gaining XP. Oh no, you're unable to finish a particular zone story quest for a few weeks! Game is broken! Yeah, no. Server mergers didn't remove the RP environment for RPers (I'm a pretty hardcore roleplayer - never noticed any change in my roleplay experience attributable to megaserers), and low pop server issues are solved through server transfers. I will grant that it's unfortunate the PvP server dwindled as much as it did, but that is by no means grounds for demanding a game be handed to you for free. And optimization? Recognized issues with specific computer builds that have seen vast improvements over time; optimization is always an ongoing project in MMOs, just like any other aspect of an MMO.
 
So yes. False entitlement at its best.	
----
			
Okay, you haven't gotten the product you paid for. That does not equate to, "I now deserve the whole product and all future iterations for free." That just means you take your money elsewhere. Simple as that.
 
[edit] I addressed your bugs and glitches, but it's clear you didn't read past the first paragraph. ;)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Anyone with an ounce of sense recognizes that an MMO is an ever-changing game landscape. To cry foul over some design decisions that displeased some players and then expect the game to be given to them for free from now on is utterly unreasonable. It's a shame Carbine capitulated (likely from NCSoft decisions, but who knows).
 
Attunement has never made raids unreachable, and this was even less so come drop 3 (IIRC, that was the drop that knocked dungeon medal requirements down to bronze). PvP has been a mess in the past, yes, but like MMOs do, that is continually being addressed, changed, improved. Your "recollections" of people deleting/rerolling characters because they became unrecoverably stuck on something are doubtful at best. There were a few quests that were bugged, but there's never been a bug that prevented one from gaining XP. Oh no, you're unable to finish a particular zone story quest for a few weeks! Game is broken! Yeah, no. Server mergers didn't remove the RP environment for RPers (I'm a pretty hardcore roleplayer - never noticed any change in my roleplay experience attributable to megaserers), and low pop server issues are solved through server transfers. I will grant that it's unfortunate the PvP server dwindled as much as it did, but that is by no means grounds for demanding a game be handed to you for free. And optimization? Recognized issues with specific computer builds that have seen vast improvements over time; optimization is always an ongoing project in MMOs, just like any other aspect of an MMO.
 
So yes. False entitlement at its best.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Okay, you haven't gotten the product you paid for. That does not equate to, "I now deserve the whole product and all future iterations for free." That just means you take your money elsewhere. Simple as that.
 
[edit] I addressed your bugs and glitches, but it's clear you didn't read past the first paragraph. ;)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
LOL, wrong, sorry.  Anybody with an ounce of sense understands how supply and demand, and customer-service works.  You pay for a product, if product doesn't live up to what it should, you haven't gotten the product you paid for.  And LOL, you must have skimmed my post, it wasn't just "design decisions", much of it was bugs, glitches, teleporting-bots, hackers, and unfixable problems [which no paying customer should ever have to deal with such issues... that's not for the customer to bare, but the company that facilitates it -- unless you expect me to believe that I should feel at fault, blamed, or ashamed that the game had teleporting-bots everywhere or the fact that top-end rigs could barely run this game for months -- even today, I still get frame-rate hiccups in the game even with my rig] that outright broke the gaming experience.  End of story.  Peace out.
 
----
			
So..from what you guys have said...and pointed me to the faq...I have come to the conclusion. I can drop the sub at anytime and here is why:)
 
I will not recieve the only item that I want (the Mount)
all other rewards are worthless to me, as I dont like housing the way it is and I never wear titles cause then ppl judge you;)
I will recieve loyalty for the monts i've paied for already and also for my digital deluxe edition..so i will get some anyway
I dont think loyalty will get me anything I cant buy for money when F2P pops anyways..
subscribers from 15 june unthil F2P will get 4 mnts of "Subscription", but I dont want to be subscribed anymore....I just wanna pay Money for what I want...
 
All in all this is a good move by carabinerous...and I think this system will work...and I forsee that they will make 80% their Income from the cash shop...and 20% from the "Subscription".
 
and since I am utterly bored atm...by only running vet Dungeons...I will probably let my Subscription lapse ( 24 of june)...I might even go back to WOW while I wait for F2P ws.	
----
			
With F2P coming I guess that the region lock will be easier to bypass, but I wonder if there's any plans to completely abolish the region lock (allowing players from both regions to queue and play together) or at least some plans to allow char transfers between regions.
 
It's kinda sad to have friends on both regions that can't play together atm. I may be spoiled by other games without region separation, but I'd really love to see something that would help on this issue.
 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You seem to be under the delusion that Carbine promised you a bug-free experience. Your sub paid for access to their servers, period. They never promised flawless gameplay, they never promised you'd get every item in game, they never promised you anything more than being able to log into their servers when they were available.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You know, I'd have a much easier time agreeing with this argument made by you and Naunet if it didn't boil down to "When a company sells you a game, they don't owe you anything worth buying" on one hand and "people shouldn't want to play for free and put up money AFTER the game proves itself, instead of before" on the other.
 
While it is true that a company is not obliged to sell a product that is fun for most people, nobody should be even a little surprised or upset when that company finds that people start demanding extensive proof that they fixed it before spending more money on it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I am not sure what more you expect, except maybe to be given a game for free and then you can decide if it's worth buying after playing it. That's what free trials are for.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why, thank you for asking! I'll tell you what I'm looking for--and what I'm not looking for. I come at this from a perspective that starts off near yours but doesn't end up anywhere near where you're at. 
 
Does Carbine "owe" me ANYTHING? Well, no, of course not--as long as they don't want any of my money in the future. I bet they do, though! I hear they need money.
But if they do, I do have expectations for what I'm going to be willing to spend on, based on past and present behaviors from them. 
 
You see, since late beta this game's developers have made it clear in a number of ways that all that early hype was just talk and they're really not all that interested in actually making a game I want to play... but they are really interested in letting me pay for their game anyway. They dangled OMNIcore-1 and Veterand Shiphands out as a carrot for a long time before letting us know that not only was this NOT an endgame for solo/small group players, it wasn't even equal to the very first step in the group content endgame progression. To them, the casual endgame isn't an alternate pathway--it's just the first step in the hardcore progression and if that's where you want to stop, they'll let you do that. Real big of them.
 
In the end, I conclude that they've made it very clear that if I let them, they will cheerfully string me along, take my money, and then spend it making the game they want to make, without any regard for whether or not that has any relationship to the game I want to play. That ain't gonna happen again. I have earned the right to withhold my money until they make something I actually want to spend it on.
 
And that's what F2P is really about. It's about giving me the option to only spend my money for parts of the game that I actually want, because I have learned that they lack the foresight to be given my blank check to make what they want. Do I want more #hardcore? Nope. No, I am not interested in one more dime of mine spent on that. If the game's developers think they're going to get me to purchase that for the hardcore players by overcharging for my housing and costuming options, I will be happy to teach them otherwise by continuing to not spend my money on their game.
 
They don't have to go F2P, they don't owe me or anyone else that, in a literal sense. And I don't owe them anything either. They can go out of business instead with their hardcore creds intact as legendary heroes: the Last Charge Of The 40-Person Raid, and I can keep my money. But I am glad they chose not to go that far, I think that was wise on their part. It keeps open the possibility that at some point, they will actually make something I want to spend more money on than I already have.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
#HardcoreSavingsFTW
----
			
Instead of replying to anyone specifically, in light of the past few posts... a reminder that the game is going f2p, not changing into another game. 
 
And that is the key to success... There are players that love exactly what WildStar is. We just need more of them.
 
Relatively speaking, there are very few MMO players who have actually tried it compared to the number of active or inactive players in the genre. That "low" rate of trial is a huge strength as the game gets more exposure, and more of the type of player that loves this style of play will be exposed to it.
 
As I've said before, my opinion is the growth opportunity lies in new players that haven't tried the game as opposed to returning players who wouldn't be happy without extensive change to the game.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Instead of replying to anyone specifically, in light of the past few posts... a reminder that the game is going f2p, not changing into another game. 
 
And that is the key to success... There are players that love exactly what WildStar is. We just need more of them.
 
Relatively speaking, there are very few MMO players who have actually tried it compared to the number of active or inactive players in the genre. That "low" rate of trial is a huge strength as the game gets more exposure, and more of the type of player that loves this style of play will be exposed to it.
 
As I've said before, my opinion is the growth opportunity lies in new players that haven't tried the game as opposed to returning players who wouldn't be happy without extensive change to the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Instead of replying to anyone specifically, in light of the past few posts... a reminder that the game is going f2p, not changing into another game. 
And that is the key to success... There are players that love exactly what WildStar is. We just need more of them.
Relatively speaking, there are very few MMO players who have actually tried it compared to the number of active or inactive players in the genre. That "low" rate of trial is a huge strength as the game gets more exposure, and more of the type of player that loves this style of play will be exposed to it.
As I've said before, my opinion is the growth opportunity lies in new players that haven't tried the game as opposed to returning players who wouldn't be happy without extensive change to the game.
----
			
Whether F2P pulls in enough folks willing to play the game "as is" remains to be seen.
 
Opinion follows....
 
F2P will bring a influx of people to be sure but, hold them long term? That I have trouble believing.
 
40 mans were a terrible idea. It's something I said long before launch. Now it's 20 mans with no viable alternative raiding/progression paths. Also a mistake. You still run into the same "hardcore" mess you did at launch when you hit 50. People will play, hit max lvl and run into the raid or die mentality. There will be the RP'ers/housing folks (as long as Carbine doesn't screw them over with to many micro transactions) that will play but, for people that are gear-centric there is organized group content and very little else.
 
I'm a "hardcore raider". I run heroic/mythic content in that other game. I know I can handle the content as it stands now. I just doubt the majority that are coming will want to.
 
The ball is in Carbine's court. Will they adapt and make a great game more appealing to the masses or stick to their original philosophy and try to force it to work. Time will tell.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And that's what F2P is really about. It's about giving me the option to only spend my money for parts of the game that I actually want, because I have learned that they lack the foresight to be given my blank check to make what they want. Do I want more #hardcore? Nope. No, I am not interested in one more dime of mine spent on that. If the game's developers think they're going to get me to purchase that for the hardcore players by overcharging for my housing and costuming options, I will be happy to teach them otherwise by continuing to not spend my money on their game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why, thank you for asking! I'll tell you what I'm looking for--and what I'm not looking for. I come at this from a perspective that starts off near yours but doesn't end up anywhere near where you're at.
 
You see, I agree with you that:
and that:
and that:
In fact, so many people agree with you on that last point that the game is off launch revenues by about 90%. 
 
Does Carbine "owe" me ANYTHING? Well, no, of course not--as long as they don't want any of my money in the future. I bet they do, though! I hear they need money.
But if they do, I do have expectations for what I'm going to be willing to spend on, based on past and present behaviors from them. 
 
You see, since late beta this game's developers have made it clear in a number of ways that all that early hype was just talk and they're really not all that interested in actually making a game I want to play... but they are really interested in letting me pay for their game anyway. They dangled OMNIcore-1 and Veterand Shiphands out as a carrot for a long time before letting us know that not only was this NOT an endgame for solo/small group players, it wasn't even equal to the very first step in the group content endgame progression. To them, the casual endgame isn't an alternate pathway--it's just the first step in the hardcore progression and if that's where you want to stop, they'll let you do that. Real big of them.
 
In the end, I conclude that they've made it very clear that if I let them, they will cheerfully string me along, take my money, and then spend it making the game they want to make, without any regard for whether or not that has any relationship to the game I want to play. That ain't gonna happen again. I have earned the right to withhold my money until they make something I actually want to spend it on.
 
And that's what F2P is really about. It's about giving me the option to only spend my money for parts of the game that I actually want, because I have learned that they lack the foresight to be given my blank check to make what they want. Do I want more #hardcore? Nope. No, I am not interested in one more dime of mine spent on that. If the game's developers think they're going to get me to purchase that for the hardcore players by overcharging for my housing and costuming options, I will be happy to teach them otherwise by continuing to not spend my money on their game.
 
They don't have to go F2P, they don't owe me or anyone else that, in a literal sense. And I don't owe them anything either. They can go out of business instead with their hardcore creds intact as legendary heroes: the Last Charge Of The 40-Person Raid, and I can keep my money. But I am glad they chose not to go that far, I think that was wise on their part. It keeps open the possibility that at some point, they will actually make something I want to spend more money on than I already have.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Now it's 20 mans with no viable alternative raiding/progression paths. Also a mistake. You still run into the same "hardcore" mess you did at launch when you hit 50. People will play, hit max lvl and run into the raid or die mentality. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How do you intend to spend money only for the parts of the game that you want, though? It's pretty much a guarantee that the cash shop will just be cosmetics. I highly doubt they'll be selling raids and battlegrounds and dungeons a la carte. In the end you'll either spend money in the cash shop to buy cosmetics, pay into the Signature status, or do both, and... you still won't have any more control with what development your money goes into than you have had with the game now on a pure subscription model.
----
			If someone started a Free Trial but never upgraded their account, how is their account transitioned over to the F2P model? Trialers at the moment have 3 character slots per realm and can expand their bank by 3 slots. When F2P goes live it says trialers have 2 character slots per realm and can buy 2 bank slots. Will a trialer with 3 characters keep all 3? If they have 2 characters will they still get to create a 3rd? If they upgraded to 3 bank slots will they keep those?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Needless to say, no more bamboozling certain customers into thinking this game is the best thing since sliced-bread for everybody, to find out that those that don't want to grind 24/7 hardcore to afford CREDD, have to fork over the cash to facilitate and fund the hardcore-player's content, while their feedback, concerns, and requests kind of get tossed to the circular-file as most have since day one.  Hooray for that at least. :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What "Raid or die" mentality? Are you even playing the same game I am? Because what I see is MOST people standing around the contract board, running those quests and doing those dungeons/bgs/arenas/world bosses. Those who still need or want rep are doing dailies for those zones. Those who need amps/ability points are working on those if they want. Those that want to RP have ample opportunity. There are world boss runs nearly every day. There are faster queues for dungeons and rated bg/arenas than ever before.
 
And for those that WANT, there are even some casual raid/PUG raid opportunities. There are guilds that raid as a primary focus. There are guilds that raid as a hobby. There are guilds to help with attunement IF YOU WANT. But no where have I seen a "Raid or die" mentality, and I know plenty of players who don't raid and continue to log in every day because they enjoy the other aspects of the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
How do you intend to spend money only for the parts of the game that you want, though? It's pretty much a guarantee that the cash shop will just be cosmetics. I highly doubt they'll be selling raids and battlegrounds and dungeons a la carte. In the end you'll either spend money in the cash shop to buy cosmetics, pay into the Signature status, or do both, and... you still won't have any more control with what development your money goes into than you have had with the game now on a pure subscription model.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Most of what you say I agree with. It's long term play-ability that worries me. How long will someone log in for dailies, dungeons or a boss in a box? A month or two? maybe a little longer? I believe the current options outside of raiding are limited. The exception being housing (which is awesome and, I mentioned) and PvP. My bad for not thinking of PvP as a viable end-game. I often overlook it since I do not enjoy it.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the beauty of a subscription model - you can decide at any time if the product is or isn't delivering on the fun you're looking for. Why not cancel before your free 30 days were up? If you were bamboozled its no one's fault but your own.
----
			I'll gladly play for free knowing I won't get the same rewards as box orders which were on sale for half the price for what a month or more? While I preordered the 76 dollar digital deluxe version.  I guess I spent to much money to get those silly little digital things.  	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll gladly play for free knowing I won't get the same rewards as box orders which were on sale for half the price for what a month or more? While I preordered the 76 dollar digital deluxe version.  I guess I spent to much money to get those silly little digital things.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 And if it is raids and dungeons, which can be difficult in this game, why wouldn't you expect difficult play?  Is it to difficult, maybe.  I don't think so.  Requires people to not just stand there and zone out but instead to watch mechanics and whats going on....GET OUT OF RED!  This community is really great because a lot of it works with you to help understand what needs to be done.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What else is there in an endgame?
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game's financial model never intended to force hardcore players to pay a recurring fee for their content. That's the whole point of CREDD. And now they won't have to pay for the client, either. On Carbine's ledgers, the hardcore are about to represent a great big -0- on their revenue sheets.
 
The people that Carbine has always counted on to pay the bills are casuals who simply don't accrue enough plat to buy CREDD in the first place and whales who spend plat faster than they can make it. The whales were never put off by the box price or by the subscription fee--they can afford both, they don't care. And the casuals are the players you don't want to have around because they're not here for the hardcore content. They're not going to be any happier about the idea of being gouged to make the next raid tier than the original set of casual players was. 
 
Companies that don't cater to their paying customers but instead take the money and cater to someone else are not companies that stay in business for long.
 
And--as I have noted before--that's why you were so opposed to F2P in the first place.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment... I would go as far to say that housing is a big bonus over other MMO's as well.
 
Why hasn't it worked? Why hasn't WildStar retained it's player base? The game is fundamentally sound and mechanically fun to play. Every time I log back into WoW I am bored off my azz with the actual fight mechanics. (not that mythic or heroics are to easy) but, all the same... Where is my double jump? My sprint? my action combat?
 
My personal experience is that the old guard (10 years+ with my group) is not willing to take the time to regain that momentum. I believe lowering the bar to raid entry will entice folks like me to give the game a chance. They get into the raids without a time commitment, see how fun it could be if they were hard and, transition into regular runs and groups. Raid size is also something I think Carbine should reconsider.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is a good point and something I keep wondering about. Does Carbine really think it's going to be reasonable to expect to generate millions from a small niche hardcore raiding player base? It just makes no sense to me and a big reason why I think the game might be doomed. This game was built on the presumption they would be using a sub system and so a lot of systems/infrastructure that's normally implemented in F2P games just isn't here. As you said people who will spend $100 on costumes are, for the most part, casual players. These players still have nothing to do!!! It's amazing to me Carbine doesn't get it. They throw new content at casuals and raise gold rewards and think it's going to make it all better. It's not! The problem isn't that there isn't anything to do it's that there is nothing casuals want to do because this game has a very steep gear based progression system. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's amazing to me Carbine doesn't get it. They throw new content at casuals and raise gold rewards and think it's going to make it all better. It's not! The problem isn't that there isn't anything to do it's that there is nothing casuals want to do because this game has a very steep gear based progression system. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wholeheartedly agree.  Another recent game that went the hardcore route of sorts was The Secret World.  It started out casual enough until you got to Egypt, then it just got insane to play.  That was another game where I pushed myself all the way to the end (and that was worlds more difficult to get to the end of, solo, than Wildstar any day), and just couldn't be bothered with the insanity of the raids.  It also went f2p shortly after releasing, and Lord only knows how it's still up and running -- not to say anything bad about it -- it has a very unique and cool niche that I go back to check out from time to time.  But last several times I was in The Secret World, the place was a ghost-town; even in the central teleporting-hub that's like a limbo between worlds (can't recall it's name for the life of me), where there used to be tons of people, most times it's just me, or occasionally there might be one or two other people around.
 
As Wildstar goes f2p, it may want to do some research on other "hardcore MMOs" that went f2p, and perhaps try to do things a tad differently possibly.
 
I mean, that comparison right there.  The Secret World was modern, immersive, top-end beautiful graphics, flowed fairly decently (the combat was much like Wildstar, and neither is what I personally consider true action-combat), and was truly unique for what it was bringing to the table -- and it wanted to do the hardcore niche, and not even that could really make it or pan out in the end.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's possible to make games for something other than the masses. 
----
			
I think their only hope is to: 
 
1) Sell runic flux and rune fragments in the cash shop 
2) Pour all development into housing. Find a way to connect houses easier so that people spend more time socializing in housing and seeing each others house. Then add exclusive housing items in the cash shop to make your neighbors jelly 
3) Sell some sexy boots/high heels for the female characters 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not on a AAA-budget it isn't. Those require the masses to recoup the money invested.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wholeheartedly agree.  Another recent game that went the hardcore route of sorts was The Secret World.  It started out casual enough until you got to Egypt, then it just got insane to play.  That was another game where I pushed myself all the way to the end (and that was worlds more difficult to get to the end of, solo, than Wildstar any day), and just couldn't be bothered with the insanity of the raids.  It also went f2p shortly after releasing, and Lord only knows how it's still up and running -- not to say anything bad about it -- it has a very unique and cool niche that I go back to check out from time to time.  But last several times I was in The Secret World, the place was a ghost-town; even in the central teleporting-hub that's like a limbo between worlds (can't recall it's name for the life of me), where there used to be tons of people, most times it's just me, or occasionally there might be one or two other people around.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment... I would go as far to say that housing is a big bonus over other MMO's as well.
 
Why hasn't it worked? Why hasn't WildStar retained it's player base? The game is fundamentally sound and mechanically fun to play. Every time I log back into WoW I am bored off my azz with the actual fight mechanics. (not that mythic or heroics are to easy) but, all the same... Where is my double jump? My sprint? my action combat?
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think their only hope is to: 
 
1) Sell runic flux and rune fragments in the cash shop 
2) Pour all development into housing. Find a way to connect houses easier so that people spend more time socializing in housing and seeing each others house. Then add exclusive housing items in the cash shop to make your neighbors jelly 
3) Sell some sexy boots/high heels for the female characters
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Can I ask then, how is it that every single major game studio and publisher keep making the same mistake? They keep getting it wrong? Are they all completely in the dark, without any experience or industry data to draw from?
 
They actually do have experience. They do have data. NCSOFT wasn't counting on WoW numbers... I'd bet they didn't even use 10% of that in their projections. So knowing that, they still built a viable business plan around a certain number.
 
No, it would appear they did not achieve that number, but that doesn't change the plan for the type of game they built. The filed off some rough edges, but I wouldn't want or expect it to keep going in that direction. They're trying to bring more people into the game they built and love, not turn it into a different game for the people who don't like what it is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
a reminder that the game is going f2p, not changing into another game. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The game was a hot mess for the first half of its life and consequently lost most of its playerbase. <snip>
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
These points aside, there is one huge reason I'm absolutely excited for F2P. There things that in the past were considered "fluff" and not worth dev time, but I desperately wanted to see more of in the game. More costumes, more hairstyles, more mounts, and more customization all around. These were time and time again relegated to "Cool, but do you really want dev time used on that?"
 
Absolutely yes I do.
 
Now, since all those cool things will very likely make Carbine money, it will very likely warrant dev time.
 
I already know there will be the same old reply "But you could have gotten that with P2P". No, it would have NEVER, EVER been a priority. Or at worst, received a half-backsided effort so Carbine could point and say "Look what we half-backsided did, aren't we awesome?!?"
 
If locking them behind a paywall is what it takes to actually get them into the game, give me that paywall.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The problem, as Chirilin rightly noted, is one of implementation. All the pieces are there, they just need to organize them in a way that doesn't force most people into a slow lane on the highway for having the gall to not be hardcore raiders.
 
Amusingly, that was the only thing he said that you disagreed with. #hardcore.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
TL;DR. Don't expect quality costumes simply because the game will make money from offering quality costumes. Sometimes developers take a while to grasp that even though they don't care about something, the people that they're expecting to buy it care a lot.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You sit there from your high horse sneering down at everyone else because you think you deserve everything in the game without wanting to put in any effort to get it. 
----
			I'm curious: How long did it took to go back to the 'casuals want EVERYZING! without ANY effort at all!' strawman?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm curious: How long did it took to go back to the 'casuals want EVERYZING! without ANY effort at all!' strawman?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
You want me to not have hardcore solo content because you don't want that option to exist at all? Well, now we have a problem because you're no longer advocating for content you like, you're advocating against content I like.  :angry:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I apologize if I missed it but, I haven't seen this at all... you keep asking for easier raids. Do you want difficult solo content then?
 
I'm all for proper elder game solo content, and I've said it numerous times.   That's one of the few things that Carbine misfired on, but they're just as aware as anyone and I think they have made great efforts to catch it up with more coming.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think their only hope is to: 
 
1) Sell runic flux and rune fragments in the cash shop 
2) Pour all development into housing. Find a way to connect houses easier so that people spend more time socializing in housing and seeing each others house. Then add exclusive housing items in the cash shop to make your neighbors jelly 
3) Sell some sexy boots/high heels for the female characters 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I apologize if I missed it but, I haven't seen this at all... you keep asking for easier raids. Do you want difficult solo content then?
 
I'm all for proper elder game solo content, and I've said it numerous times.   That's one of the few things that Carbine misfired on, but they're just as aware as anyone and I think they have made great efforts to catch it up with more coming.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I try to make it a habit not to agree with Lethality, but he's dead on with this. Every new update has given TONS to casual solo/small group players, and a pittance to raiders and PVPers. Even Drop 5, which was touted as THE PVP DROP was mostly for solo PVE players.
----
			
One thing I congratulate WoW on doing right was the amazing questline for getting green Warlock fire. If you want difficult solo content, that entire questline was amazing. I think that experience is something we can take a lesson from - yes, solo content does not have to be easy, and yes, it can provide very meaningful rewards.
 
While I don't ever expect Wildstar to make a class-based set of solo content of about that difficulty because it takes some serious effort to tailor it to individual class skillsets properly, it was a beautiful example of it.
 
That said, I still think the best of the best rewards should come from raiding. You need a reason to want to organize 25+ people (it's not easy, at all), get them all ready for raiding, get them on the same nights, and then push through content despite differing levels of skill in order to get your goodies at the end. But it doesn't have to be the only way to get meaningful gear. If it's possible to design something on level with GA difficulty, that should reward just below GA (64/67 ilvl?) gear. If it's possible to design something for solo players on level with DS content difficulty, it could be 72/76 ilvl. It still makes the raid gear better, and by a good margin, but it gives some serious rewards to players who can progress through solo content. The only problem: how do you effectively gate a solo play experience. How do you extend the life of solo play content? The reason raiding takes so long is because you have 20 people to spread gear to, and 20 people who have to learn the fight and then carry out the mechanics as a cohesive unit. And how do you make that solo play experience fun if it's supposed to take several months to do?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have to wonder when developers will ever learn.  Not defending WoW, as I became rather burnt out on WoW quite awhile back -- but every single time a team boasts, "we came from WoW", it pretty much rolls out the same way.  Rift did the same thing, but then again, at least Rift did have a pretty steady boom for awhile.
----
			
I clearl don't understand why people do argue against the F2P model from SWTOR. This made SWTOR the western F2P MMO King. It is quite easy and comprehensive why to buy some features. And the IGS is getting all the time new stuff.
 
WildStars features are predestined to work exactly like that. Better gear than blue can easyly need a unlock perk. There are some people who really have to need those. But there are people who doesn't. As well as it goes with dungeon or PVP unlocks. Some want to go there, some don't. And housing and tailoring. Heck, do I even need to argue why it is perfectly fit? Those 2 features are classic fluff, thatfore luxury, and luxury costs money.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In fairness to Rift, they also did an absolutely brilliant job of inclusive and engaging world events. Why their zone invasions haven't been cheerfully swiped, adapted, tweaked, and integrated into every game since then in terms of "how to make your whole community pull together" is beyond me.
----
			
HAHA, this thread is getting funny.  2 pages to read thru since my last post so going to respond as much as can so wall of text.  
Yasfan, do you want to play an MMO, or do you want to play a Single player game with an MMO community?  Telling raiders are "superheros" and everything makes you seem like you really hate raiders and all raiders are entitled or something.  DS40 was changed to DS20 not because of difficult, it was hard to get 40 people together on a set time and transition between 20man content to 40man.  Along with the resources for the game.  ALot of poeple's computers could not handle DS40.  And about the difficulty being 500+ for Avatus, yes, guilds are taking that long on him.  DS40 is not DS20.  DS40 was easier than DS20.  Guilds in DS20 are taking that long.  I had a hard time in dungeons learning them and not being carried, but once I learned the fights and knew the little "tricks" to the encounters, the content became easy.  Running Gold dungeons in non-raid gear.  I got most my gold dungeons before getting raid geared out.  
 
And how would balance happen on solo play?  There's a reason there is no solo PVP arena, balance.  Imbuements, so my warrior imbuement would be a self heal to me so I didn't have to do the trinity system?  Not only would I get good dps, heavy armor and survivability, but now I can heal?  There's a reason they nerfed the lifesteal on AB because it was to OP.  So in order to create balance, I would have to create a different solo instance for every class.  Omnicore is the only thing that can be considered solo instanced content and it's not hard at all.  Except maybe the last guy in there but for dps with a heal, its easier than one without.
 
For the different stats for PVP and Raiding and Solo......really?  You know how difficult that would be to implement and majority of poeple do and like?  So I have to carry around 6 sets of gear now.  2 dps/support for raiding.  2 for pvp and 2 for pve.  That would be an utter failure and on top of that, alot wouldn't understand the stat and get upset over that.  There's a reason they are changing stats in game and simplifying them.  On top of that, If I down the last boss in the game, and I get the phat lootz from him, and than I go to solo content and can't use said gear, that I spent all my plat on runing (btw, got my T2 chest last night, just to unlock all the gear slots, to include the additional, was 2.5p) and time spent to get said loot, I would not be happy.  
 
Carbine really hasn't put much into raiding in the past year.  1 new raid.  Fixes and changes to bosses.  DS40 to DS20.  Than look at non raiding content.  WAY more stuff.  
 
And the T3 contracts being group content, it actually helped ALOT by doing this.  It gets poeple doing the tree event, get's people doing the group content again.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Another thing I'd love to see brought back, which hasn't been in effect, at least that I'm aware of, since Anarchy Online -- is a means of reutilizing the random-mission-generator terminals.  Not so much the terminals themselves, but the functionality.  A way for players to have a completely random mission/quest (solo-play content) generated, either with the old-school sliders, or some other means of fine-tuning it, or perhaps even not.  Where they'd run the quest, in whatever various area, do the needed tasks, and at the end be rewarded accordingly.  Could perhaps even utilize it somewhat the way Red Dead Redemption did... where any random stranger at any time, could suddenly approach you with, "Help, please help", to be followed by the randomly-generated mission/quest.  I mean, so many games are finding better success these days with randomness and procedural-generation... the pre-scripted/encoded days are yesteryear... after you've run the same thing half a dozen times, the replay value quickly diminishes. :D
----
			
Wildstar is a prime example of a good idea, without enough quality developers, and ultimately no real vision / leadership.  I'm sure there are lots of people / no one to blame for this, but reality is what it is, and we have to move forward in that regard.
 
More frequent story and solo content
Gear grind independent of raids (reserve cool raid gear to costumes)
Less 6-12 boss raid content, more quarterly 1-2 boss content
More emphasis on the small group (10 person)
More attention to PvP, in general
More emphasis on the housing plot
More community involvement  (why is there no Carbine sponsored housing contest?)
Carbine has a lot of issues that still spawn a lot of problems.  I think the QA needs work.  I think the community team here needs a better leader / new focus.  Someone needs to teach a AAA mmo developer how to do a livestream  / youtube video with people without messing something up.
 
Wildstar needs less RNG, and more fun content.
 
Crafting needs a massive integration overhaul
Itemization needs a massive overhaul
The UI team needs to be replaced with people that can make a functioning UI.  Last I checked I have at least 2 Carbine addons disabled just so I can have playable performance.
Carbine needs to hire enough web developers to keep the website up to date.	
----