Report 265

Report #265
Skillset: Sacraments Skill: Trueheal
 Org: Blacktalon Status: Rejected Sept 2009
Furies' Decision:
We do not find this to be necessary.
Problem: Trueheal has the ability to be used excessively with no cost to the
user. When used excessively, one can literally raid nonstop with 80 second
breaks to regain power. It has already been used this way to raid for multiple
hours on end. It is a much more powerful version of serpent (which already
received a nerf). It can be used in any state other than asleep, stun,
unconscious. It does not even require equilibrium or balance (Shadowdance Flight
was changed to require both). One can simply raid and then trueheal when in
mortal danger, leave and come back immediately
Solution #1: Keep trueheal as is, but upon using it, one loses all defenses in
 exchange.
Solution #2: Require balance and equilibrium for trueheal to be used.
Solution #3: Limit trueheal use to once per day.
Player Comments:
---[Nienla on 9/13 @ 21:55 writes]:
I'm in favour of Solution #3 above the others. Solution #2 isn't bad, but the
main issue stems from people using Trueheal once, attacking and then when they
start losing, running away until they regen 10p, trueheal again, return and
repeating this process. Given the fact that Trueheal seems to neutralize any
sort of built offense.
---[Ilyarin on 9/14 @ 09:44 writes]:
How about you wait until the report is actually completed formed, Nienla? I
don't like either solution at the moment. Solution#2 completely neuters one of
the uses (escaping bal/eq locks). Solution#3 puts an extensive limit on a trans
skill that I really am not fond of adding. I'll comment further when the report
is actually given a "problem" to solve.
---[Nienla on 9/15 @ 02:41 writes]:
Merely commenting on the solutions thus far, actually. I don't believe there is
a rule against that. Also on Solution #3, it's not an 'extensive limit' as you
put it, since Demigods are limited to only using Divinefire once per day and
they manage just fine. I fail to see where this is an 'extensive limit', if
you'd care to elaborate.
---[Ilyarin on 9/16 @ 08:35 writes]:
It's a limit being placed on a trans skill which costs 10p. 10p is the limiting
factor. I doubt you could argue that divinefire's 10000 essence cost would
restrict it being used every other second, hence the daily limit (also because
it's available on top of real skills from skillsets). As I said earlier, I'll
comment further when the report has a "problem" to solve.
---[Nienla on 9/16 @ 14:57 writes]:
Erm. Power isn't really a "limiting factor" either. Not with certain individuals
possessing Refresh, and most can just draw as much power as they want from their
Nexus. It's not a limiting factor at all. It's simply just necessary as current
Trueheal allows you to: Never be shattered in a debate, as you can use it right
before getting shattered and then flee. In my fights with Veyrzhul, he will use
it and attack again, flee when he starts losing, and then use it again and come
back to fight and he does this repeatedly to avoid death. Honestly, the sheer
fact alone remains that the ability completely nulls most sorts of offensive set
up for a measly 10p, which is not a "limiting factor" at all as you put it.
---[Ceren on 9/19 @ 22:25 writes]:
Honestly I'd still say serpent > trueheal overall, but I don't really like the
idea of either skill and say nerf em. Only thing about trueheal though is it
comes at the cost of having lolSacraments as your secondary. Last time trueheal
was nerfed it was done with the promise that Sacraments would get offensive
buffs, and they got lolFervour and hallowedground, which is good defensively but
the offensive component of it is really bad.
---[Ceren on 9/19 @ 22:26 writes]:
The other thing you could do maybe is have powerspikes be an instakill if they
use a 10p feat.
---[Akui on 9/21 @ 15:44 writes]:
If any of these are implemented, we should seriously consider meaningfully
dropping trueheal's power cost. The devil of the thing is apparent, and has
been pointed out at other times- for all trueheal's strengths, it pre-empts
other power attacks. Meaning that there's a good chance the sacraments user
isn't going to get anywhere offensively either. More specifically to the
solutions, I strongly dislike 2, because it tears the heart of of a big part of
what the ability is. 3 isn't a bad idea, though you wouldn't even need a day to
hinder the "run away and wait for 10p" maneuver- a sixth of one (approx 10
minutes) would accomplish the same thing. Heck, even 5 minutes would probably
be more than enough to slow someone using this tequinique down sufficiently.
---[Ceren on 9/21 @ 17:31 writes]:
Yeah, one hour is a pretty excessive cooldown for the skill that pretty much
defines Sacraments. Definitely NOT solution 3 (as it stands).
---[Ilyarin on 9/22 @ 07:40 writes]:
These are all fairly substancial changes to the skill. Of the three solutions
suggested, one and two feel to be too much. Three, also, as it currently stands
(one day). A lesser cooldown period may be acceptable, in the region of 5
minutes. Honestly, I would be quite happy for Trueheal to be changed somehow, so
that Sacraments can finally gain something offensively without everyone going
"But... Trueheal!"
---[Krellan on 9/23 @ 07:19 writes]:
Thing is Trueheal works for a demigod without sacrificing offense. It also works
for order members with avatars just logged in. Refresh+Trueheal usable off-eq
allows a one to attack full force. Not to mention this is mostly for groups
where if you actually are combating, you will not have to use power and can
still significantly contribute to a group. As a note, Serpent now repops at
about double the previous rate. It is currently just over 10 seconds
---[Xenthos on 9/24 @ 00:17 writes]:
As a note, Sacraments "finally gained something offensive," in that
Hallowedground + Heretic is giving a 17.5% damage boost. :P It's currently
bugged and reducing wounds as well, but when that's flipped the wounds will also
be a very significant bump upwards as well. It is actually looking like way too
much for something that can't be cured, but still. An offensive boost went in,
a very significant one, which makes artifacted warriors even more deadly.
---[Ceren on 9/24 @ 12:34 writes]:
Mhm, incurable inqui line plus perma fervour. I've suddenly lost most of my
sympathy for Sacraments.
---[Akui on 9/24 @ 16:50 writes]:
To get back to the issue at hand, I'm mostly behind the modified solution 3- a
short delay, 5 minutes or so, would stop the "run for 10p constantly" issue the
report is centered on. If there does turn out to be a problem with the heretic
line, that can be addressed seperately, but we should be a little careful that
we aren't trying to inhibit trueheal as a reaction to those changes- even if
trueheal were made useless, if there were a problem with heretic, the change to
trueheal wouldn't fix it.
---[Sidd on 9/25 @ 16:00 writes]:
I am in favor of Solution 2 personally, a delay of 5 minutes just means they
will wait a bit longer before coming back. Requiring balance and equilibrium
just means that they can't bank on it for getting group ganked, it doesn't make
the skill useless in the slightest, just have to be smarter when using it. As
Krellan said, Demi's with refresh can still use offensive skills, then refresh
and trueheal, Veyrzhul himself has done it plenty of times. Solution 2 appeals
to me the most.
---[Ceren on 9/27 @ 04:41 writes]:
I could see solution 2, though it'd be pretty rough once Celest gets back to
fighting Mag. Guess that kind of makes sense though seeing as how Celest
possesses the counter to ghost.
---[Krellan on 9/27 @ 09:11 writes]:
I find solution 2 to be the lightest nerf here. It's not too restrictive, but
it's just enough. A cool down time of 5 minutes is nothing as to regenerate the
power takes 160 seconds at transcendant discipline.
---[Ceren on 9/27 @ 23:20 writes]:
Might want to double check your math there.
---[Krellan on 9/29 @ 19:24 writes]:
Yes I was wondering why that number was different from what I thought two days
earlier. Ignore the 160