126076-wildstar-is-going-to-a-hybrid-free-to-play-model-in-august-what-are-your-thoughts-page-6

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I'm already paying. $15/month. And right now I get access to all of it - even those "perks" that are my primary motivation.
 
Nobody's going to want a game that's just dungeon encounters and PvP with no other rewards. You are completely off in suggesting that housing, collectibles, and costumes are somehow unnecessary. Housing alone in WildStar represents an entire endgame for a lot of people. So the PvPers can have their endgame for free but F the folk who have latched on to the other 1/3 of WildStar.
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I don't do internet argument analogies, sorry. I think they're pretty silly.
 
It's worth $15/month to me. Tons of other people agree it's a great game; you have only to look at the number of "impressed!", "most underrated game ever!", "loving this game!" posts and talk to the people actually playing to understand that people have a lot of fun. The people who aren't playing? They're still harping on the same stuff that was fixed months ago. Most of their criticisms have no merit anymore, but they'll take them to their grave.
 
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and that's what Wildstar needs to do.  It needs to go f2p, and offer a subscriber model type that gives access to better perks.  I don't want to pay 15$ a month for access to 350 skins and 2000 housing plot items when all I want to do is PvP.  I don't want to pay for new arenas, bgs, etc, when all I want to do is raid.  I don't want to pay for new raids, PvP content, etc, when all I want to do is sit in my housing plot.  I'd rather pay what I think those perks are worth, as I see fit.  I'd rather pay for quality development, based on the popularity and need of what people will pay for, rather than split that 15$ a month and divide it between things that suck, and things that don't suck.
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....
 
If Wildstar in its current state was worth 15$ a month, people from other MMOs would be flocking to it.  If it was hands down, the best hotel to stay at, people would flock to it.
The people (subscribers) have spoken.  It is not. 
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I don't do internet argument analogies, sorry. I think they're pretty silly.
 
It's worth $15/month to me. Tons of other people agree it's a great game; you have only to look at the number of "impressed!", "most underrated game ever!", "loving this game!" posts and talk to the people actually playing to understand that people have a lot of fun. The people who aren't playing? They're still harping on the same stuff that was fixed months ago. Most of their criticisms have no merit anymore, but they'll take them to their grave.
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When you adjust your subscription, what if you were able to give your personal valuation for types of content.
 
Ie:
 
PVE
PVP
Housing/Cosmetics
 
 
Like I could put in, 90% of my $15 to PVE, 5% to PVP, and 5% to Housing/Cosmetics
 
Carbine can take that aggregate info from all the paying customers and see what they want from the game.  If a very low amount of subscriber money is put towards PVE content, then the devs clearly shouldn't focus on it.	
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No one is saying you won't be able to pay 15$ a month to get what you're already getting
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If Wildstar in its current state was worth 15$ a month, people from other MMOs would be flocking to it.  If it was hands down, the best hotel to stay at, people would flock to it.
The people (subscribers) have spoken.  It is not.  It is not worth 15$ a month.  There needs to be a model change.  IT needs to come soon, or the game will fade.
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if NCSoft/Carbine is willing to work improvements and marketing methodically, I firmly believe there will be enough people who DO make the switch or that find WildStar on their own to make the subscription model perfectly lucrative. No change needed.
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Don't faint, but I agree with everything you had to say up until this point.
 
The problem, if I may be so bold, isn't that Carbine is unwilling to work toward improvements, it's the reality of keeping the lights on *while* working on those improvements.
 
That, in a nutshell, is the reality they (as a profit-driven business) have to confront. All the fixes, all the improvements, all the noble intentions in the world will do absolutely nothing if they can't pay the rent or keep the power turned on.
 
That's why a model change is not only important at this point, but largely imminent.
 
In short, the hotel could totally bring in new staff, new linens, a new paint job, better work-out equipment and have bikini-girls cleaning the pool all day ... but if the landlord shuts the doors, all that effort is for naught.
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At the risk of upsetting your colorful analogy, WildStar has had the equivalent of a Yelp-war waged on it since the week of launch.
 
It might be the best damn hotel on the freaking PLANET, but thanks to them making people upset a year ago, this hotel (despite it's four-star rating) has been held hostage by the internet trolls and haters.
 
In short, for all the lovely landscaping, workout room, valet service, continental breakfasts and cable channels, this hotel will never again be as popular as it should be, due to poor reviews that started 12 months ago. This hotel might have cleaned up every single thing that irritated those first visitors after it opened it's door, but many people will never know, because they won't come and visit so long as the hotel won't let them in for free.
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Let's be real. Wildstar has not cleaned up all of the things that irritated those first visitors.
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Every game has buggy patches; I certainly haven't run into any gamebreaking ones for the drop 5, though. What UI problems? Are those the only examples you can come up with?
 
Expecting them to produce "pristine" patches is so unreasonable I don't even know what else to say to that.	
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hehe... yes, I should have added "willing AND able". The finances have to work out while following that path. So as a business that's where the hard choices ultimately come from. :( Sometimes the money holders will allow that course, and sometimes they'll insist on a course correction. And NCSoft has shown they're more of the latter than the former.
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			So in reality it's the hotels that need to go F2P and I have to pay $10 if I want a bed as opposed to sleeping on the floor and $5 if I want to use the toilet more than 1x a day... or are we talking about MMOs. OH GOD I'M SO CONFUSED.But really, boring discussions as 41+ pages of speculation tend to be.	
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Secondarily, when do you think the game will actually go F2P?
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This statement is a logical fallacy in every sense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the game or the business model.
 
Players have emotional and social investment other games... mostly WoW. That weighs into the choice far more than money does in the decision switch to or even play another game. They don't want to leave that all behind. Using your "analogy", it's a business traveler with a mountain of banked points at Marriott. He's reluctant to try anything new because even though its better, his "efforts" are preserved elsewhere.
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Let's stop the hotel analogy. It is one of the worst and silliest analogies I have seen in this forums so far.
 
The reality is that it is unfair to ask a particular segment of the population [housing and cosmetics] to carry the brunt of the financial burden while the rest of the population gets access to their preferred aspect of the game for free. There is no going around that fact and there is no amount of dress up that will make it disappear or justify it. It is unfair, plain and simple.
 
It is also a reality that that way of doing business on a F2P cash shop is the most preferred by the majority of people [at least in the West]. There is no hiding that either. However, this is a case where a majority it's okay with financially exploiting a minority because it is convenient for that majority and because that minority has no other option besides being a minority and hence they get exploited by said majority. 
 
The subscription model is by far the fairest way to distribute the financial burden. In a F2P system, the financial burden should be split as evenly as possible and ideally it ought to maintain a subscription option that gives you access to the totality of game content. 
 
Finally, let's not forget that the F2P transition is not a fact. There are strong predictors that would hint at it being a strong possibility in the near future, however that does not make it a given fact [as much as people would like to push for it]. It all depends on how NcSoft wishes to move forward and how much they wish to continue investing in the game.	
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Perhaps I should have come from the other direction and pointed out how people left this game in droves because of X and Y reasons.
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PvP has been neglected, PvE is finally in a state of function where the average raider can finally see DS.
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Every game has buggy patches; I certainly haven't run into any gamebreaking ones for the drop 5, though. What UI problems? Are those the only examples you can come up with?
 
Expecting them to produce "pristine" patches is so unreasonable I don't even know what else to say to that.
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Oh right, it's called f2p with a cash shop.  Where you can pay more for the things you want instead of getting 1 patch a year for cool stuff.
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			There may have been minor missteps at launch which have since been tweaked or otherwise remedied. But its players impatience combined with their investment elsewhere that causes them to be quick to jump ship. It's not because the game is bad, when in fact its largely better than what they're skipping back off to. This is a super unhealthy behavior that is having a real effect on the industry.	
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I'm not even sure what to say here... it's been possible for the average raider since drop 2. Now if you meant the average casual, probably drop 4 And if you mean the average eclips, who knows.
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So I presume you're okay with putting PvP and PvE content on the cash shop.
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So actually, I'd be totally fine with paying for raiding a la carte (game is free, but you pay for access to the raid content), but I suspect that not every raider would feel that way.
 
 
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Actually, this is how DC Universe does it. The first tier of raiding comes "free" with the game. Think of it like if Wildstar was F2P and you could play everything up to GA as a freeloader.
 
After that first tier, you have three options:
 
1. Never progress any further.
2. Purchase the DLC pack for the next tier, but once you finish that tier, you're right back in the same boat.
3. Subscribe, and get full access to everything the game offers, except the vanity crap on in the cash store.
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Actually, this is how DC Universe does it. The first tier of raiding comes "free" with the game. Think of it like if Wildstar was F2P and you could play everything up to GA as a freeloader.
 
After that first tier, you have three options:
 
1. Never progress any further.
2. Purchase the DLC pack for the next tier, but once you finish that tier, you're right back in the same boat.
3. Subscribe, and get full access to everything the game offers, except the vanity crap on in the cash store.
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Reasons that have, by and large, been fixed. Attunement? Vastly more simple. Runes? Not nearly the headache they once were. Optimization? Sweeping improvements to an eternal arms race. Things to do outside of raiding and PvP? Vet shiphands, pets, contracts, improvements to housing.
 
I'm not sure what your beef with the UI is. I use the default (except for Grid to give me better party frames... I did that in WoW, too, so nothing new there) and have zero issues. The group finder needs the ability to queue for multiple forms of content at once, yes, but also most groups form outside of the group finder. It's also rather unfair and disingenuous to try and compare WS's sub with FFXIV's single-character option; WildStar does not have multiclassing and pretending that's some kind of standard when FFXIV is the only MMO to have that function is rather silly.
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I really laugh at those that go "I wont play until its f2p" and than they get on the internet and troll and than other people see it that have no clue what they are talking about.  P2p is a good concept due to your investing in the game.  If you wan't to play casual 1 day a week for a couple hours, than I can see why you wnat it free, but is that truly an investment in the game?
 
For the few posts about some that think housing/costumes/pets are not that big compared to pve/pvp content are completly wrong.  I do not try to get housing stuff (alot of time to setup a house) but if you ever go into housing, there is a big community for it.  There are people creating their own auction houses for items, interior decorators for hire.  I saw one dude, do a huge housing plot that looked amazing for about 15 plat.  Thats a free month of gaming for a saturday afternoon.  I am seriously considering paying for that.  It is another part of the endgame for this game.  Now, with that said, I honestly think if they put in a cash shop for stuff in this game for housing, it will do one of 2 things.  Ruin housing because people don't want to pay cash for items (unless able to get with subscription) or make it even larger due to it being somewhat of a casual aspect and I can pay money for an item versus plat or time spent doing PVE/PVP content to get an item unlike now, in order to get some items, it also requires to do pve/pvp stuff.  And if they are improving housing, rumors being linked houses and guild housing (which would be huge), I see housing becoming even larger of an endgame aspect.
 
Cash shops work if they are not stuffed with a bunch of stuff to buy.  And the developers spend more time with items in the cash shop versus content.  I'm really curious if they did a tiered subscription model if that would work.  B2p could work but I don't see how purchasing a game and doing the upkeep with just content unless they have us buy updates to the game which would suck although if you think about it, your getting an update every 3 months, so that's $45 for those 3 months and if they are offering it for say $20, your actually saving money (throws credd in the garbage).  
 
I honestly won't spend much in the cash shop due to not really needing "cosmetic" stuff.  And if they make it so you can purchase items for cash, I'm out.  	
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This is frustrating because it's so close to not being a hypocritical payment model, but then they charge subscribers for cosmetics, too.
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So I presume you're okay with putting PvP and PvE content on the cash shop.
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However, runes?  Where you see "vastly more simple," I see just another set of RNG designed to prolong gametime and inhibit the playerbase under the ruse of customization.  It is all in preference. The feeling of getting a new piece of gear, and watching the runeslots be awful is terribly unrewarding.  Know that you have to go do some menial task like farm dailies just to afford runes for this new piece of gear you got --- not everyone likes that.
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This is frustrating because it's so close to not being a hypocritical payment model, but then they charge subscribers for cosmetics, too.
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Ya that's the big one. Everything would need to be included for subscriber, no extra cosmetics. And not through some fake currency either; just FREE on the shop!
 
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Sadly (and not to say I don't agree with your sentiment), that takes all the "teeth" out of a cash shop.
 
It's like this:
 
If everything on the cash shop is free to a subscriber, how do you prevent people from paying for a single month, unlocking all those awesome vanity items - and then they let their subscription lapse and continue to play for free? The company just lost out on craploads of potential dollars because someone gave them a one-hundreth of that they'd've earned if the player had never paid that $15 a single time.
 
They can't rightly just take it all away from you, can they? I mean, you DID pay for it, right?
 
That is why cash shops are "better" with a stipend. You make the purchase, you keep it, even if you let your sub lapse for a month or two.
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But while we're here, I've got two points for us to consider. First, you aren't the only people who will pay for cosmetic items. Second, you're already playing a game where you pay $15 a month and don't get any housing items provided for you as part of that fee. That's right. Aside from your housing plot itself, you have to either buy/make or get a drop for every item you want to add to your plot, right now, today, while you are paying for the privilege.
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OK first off, we ought to get off of the "only people who like housing and costumes pay in a f2p model," because it isn't true. (Yes, I'm telling you what you can and can't talk about because I have the power to prevent conversations I don't want to have, obviously. 'Murica.)
 
But while we're here, I've got two points for us to consider. First, you aren't the only people who will pay for cosmetic items. Second, you're already playing a game where you pay $15 a month and don't get any housing items provided for you as part of that fee. That's right. Aside from your housing plot itself, you have to either buy/make or get a drop for every item you want to add to your plot, right now, today, while you are paying for the privilege.	
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I enjoy the current rune system. I rarely hear people complain about it (people complained about it all the time before). It's definitely been improved.
 
And I feel ya on the PvP thing. Except of course, you pretty much told me to adapt to a system I didn't enjoy or leave PvP, so I left. It was a happy choice. I do wish you had the game you wanted here, but when you told us casuals to get the heck out of your game, we did.
 
I've just been focusing on PvE, where is where this game shines, and I've had more than enough to do. And it's a LOT of fun.
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But their point is, much the stuff they can earn by playing the game will now be moved to the cash shop.
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The people on that side just aren't pro-lazy
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Yes, quite the assumption to make.
 
All housing will now be moved to the cash shop! Well, it wouldn't be the first crazy thing Carbine ever did, but I'd like to think they've gotten unstuck from some of the stupid.
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Sadly (and not to say I don't agree with your sentiment), that takes all the "teeth" out of a cash shop.
 
It's like this:
 
If everything on the cash shop is free to a subscriber, how do you prevent people from paying for a single month, unlocking all those awesome vanity items - and then they let their subscription lapse and continue to play for free? The company just lost out on craploads of potential dollars because someone gave them a one-hundreth of that they'd've earned if the player had never paid that $15 a single time.
 
They can't rightly just take it all away from you, can they? I mean, you DID pay for it, right?
 
That is why cash shops are "better" with a stipend. You make the purchase, you keep it, even if you let your sub lapse for a month or two.
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Yeah, I haven't gotten progressed enough that I really need to remove runs from slots. I can see where that would be very frustrating.
 
Where my stats are now, I don't even re-roll slots unless it's in the top two. I can make all the sets I need for GA pretty easily with whatever slots I have, and my AP is high enough that a few crit slots isn't hurting me.	
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But while we're here, I've got two points for us to consider. First, you aren't the only people who will pay for cosmetic items. Second, you're already playing a game where you pay $15 a month and don't get any housing items provided for you as part of that fee. That's right. Aside from your housing plot itself, you have to either buy/make or get a drop for every item you want to add to your plot, right now, today, while you are paying for the privilege.
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Sadly (and not to say I don't agree with your sentiment), that takes all the "teeth" out of a cash shop.
 
It's like this:
 
If everything on the cash shop is free to a subscriber, how do you prevent people from paying for a single month, unlocking all those awesome vanity items - and then they let their subscription lapse and continue to play for free? The company just lost out on craploads of potential dollars because someone gave them a one-hundreth of that they'd've earned if the player had never paid that $15 a single time.
 
They can't rightly just take it all away from you, can they? I mean, you DID pay for it, right?
 
That is why cash shops are "better" with a stipend. You make the purchase, you keep it, even if you let your sub lapse for a month or two.
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I've always been happy to pay a subscription since the start of MMO's\
 
...
 
Edit - I think guild wars has a decent cash shop. 
 
They could add tools to it like guild wars that give a special animation, I wouldn't even mind so much if it gave 1 extra wood / metal etc I guess, prefer not to but I wouldn't rage over it.
 
They could add extra plots - It's a bit iffy for me but it's a one off purchase I wouldn't mind so much, I do NOT want decor / lights / pets in the cash shop though as I love collecting things. 
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Yes, quite the assumption to make.
 
All housing will now be moved to the cash shop! Well, it wouldn't be the first crazy thing Carbine ever did, but I'd like to think they've gotten unstuck from some of the stupid.
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Well, again, hopefully they go with a "stipend" type model, should they pursue a decor-and-costume heavy Cash Shop. That way, your subscription grants you a few "Protobucks" or whatever that you can spend on goodies. That way, you *could* eventually access everything, though you may have to prioritize what's most important to you.
 
Of course, that doesn't mean you get everything you might want *right away* but then again, how often do you get everything you want in-game right off the bat or without putting in some effort for it?
 
And believe me, I feel all your pain and anguish. As I've said before, I went through this *same exact thing* as a Founder at DC Universe On-Line - but they didn't mess it up. Their system is very elegant in it's approach and even though I spent upward of $200 on their shops (while paying my subscription) I never felt like they were taking advantage of me. Of course, I also realize that "extra money" doesn't exist in a lot of people's worlds.  ;)
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Yeah, that's my only worry ... that they go the SWTOR route and not the Champions/DCUO route. I mean, there is some cool stuff on those stores, but the in-game stuff is just as good. They didn't scrimp on the in-game accessible assets.
 
WildStar is just an unknown entity right now, since all we can do is speculate and hope for the best.
 
*Hopefully* they find a compromise that will placate the subscribing base, allow some measure of accessibility for the freeloaders and not alienate either group. It's a tough act to pull off, but other games HAVE done it and made most everyone happy in the process.
 
Fact is, no one should make the mistake that "Free to Play" is anything other than an extended trial. You should absolutely not get the whole experience for nothing, no matter what you feel entitled too. F2P should make you *want* to support the game financially, either through a regular subscription, shop purchases or a la carte gaming. 
 
The tricky part is that sense of entitlement those of us who pay start to feel whenever other people are playing in the sandbox we helped build. I get it. Man, do I get it. It's not a good feeling.
 
Ultimately though, you have to respect that Carbine and NCSoft are businesses out to make money at our expense. That's how customer/vendor relationships work. 
 
 
EDIT TO ADD:
 
I love your "Protobucks Contracts" idea. I am not sure how well a money-man would receive it, but as a subscribing player, I like the idea a lot.	
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OK first off, we ought to get off of the "only people who like housing and costumes pay in a f2p model," because it isn't true.
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I don't want to be -that- person, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a cash shop that, by subbing, you get the stuff on the shop for it. I expect it to have the same model as SW:TOR if it comes to that. "Have a stipend." I hate that crap. And like Izzi said, waiting for something sucks. 
 
It won't cause me to quit right off the bat. I mean, I stuck with WoW for years even though it was sub with an optional cash shop. The breaking point? The moment I felt like more work was going into monetizing us than developing content. The minute every mount coming out in-game was a re-skin of a previous mount with poor animations, while the good mounts were all locked behind a pay gate. That was enough to push out a loyal customer of 9 years. 
 
No other developer has the luxury of my "loyalty" patience of 9 years, and even that ran out. The minute I feel like a cash shop is taking precedence over the core game is the minute I'm out. That's why I never played SW:TOR and it's why I didn't last more than a few month with GW2. People praise that game endlessly and I honestly  haven't the slightest clue as to why. Hasn't anyone learned that exchanging real money for a fake currency that is set in hard amounts is a total rip-off? There is no way to quantify the worth of said fake currency, no way to control how much you want at any given time (it's all set amounts by the developer), and no logical, objective way to know what the rate of exchange would be.
 
It's a nice little con wrapped in happy paper and that you don't think too much about because "it's just a game." 
 
I won't quit if they go F2P, but I've yet to see it done correctly outside of MOBA games tbh. I've never seen an MMORPG pull it off. 
 
Edit: And yes, I'm aware that "pull it off" can be taken in many ways. I guess we'd have to say SW:TOR and GW2 and whatnot pull it off because, hey, they make lots of money. When I say "pull it off" I mean, deploy such a system in the game that feels totally fair to someone willing to pay a subscription fee. SW:TOR and GW2 have a lot of people who play it and who spend a lot of money in their shops. Millions of people smoke cigarettes and rot their lungs. Even more eat Big Macs. You know how many flies eat crap? Every one of them.
 
Big whoop.	
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Yeah, that's my only worry ... that they go the SWTOR route and not the Champions/DCUO route. I mean, there is some cool stuff on those stores, but the in-game stuff is just as good. They didn't scrimp on the in-game accessible assets.
 
WildStar is just an unknown entity right now, since all we can do is speculate and hope for the best.
 
*Hopefully* they find a compromise that will placate the subscribing base, allow some measure of accessibility for the freeloaders and not alienate either group. It's a tough act to pull off, but other games HAVE done it and made most everyone happy in the process.
 
Fact is, no one should make the mistake that "Free to Play" is anything other than an extended trial. You should absolutely not get the whole experience for nothing, no matter what you feel entitled too. F2P should make you *want* to support the game financially, either through a regular subscription, shop purchases or a la carte gaming. 
 
The tricky part is that sense of entitlement those of us who pay start to feel whenever other people are playing in the sandbox we helped build. I get it. Man, do I get it. It's not a good feeling.
 
Ultimately though, you have to respect that Carbine and NCSoft are businesses out to make money at our expense. That's how customer/vendor relationships work. 
 
 
EDIT TO ADD:
 
I love your "Protobucks Contracts" idea. I am not sure how well a money-man would receive it, but as a subscribing player, I like the idea a lot.
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I don't want to be -that- person, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a cash shop that, by subbing, you get the stuff on the shop for it. I expect it to have the same model as SW:TOR if it comes to that. "Have a stipend." I hate that crap. And like Izzi said, waiting for something sucks. 
 
It won't cause me to quit right off the bat. I mean, I stuck with WoW for years even though it was sub with an optional cash shop. The breaking point? The moment I felt like more work was going into monetizing us than developing content. The minute every mount coming out in-game was a re-skin of a previous mount with poor animations, while the good mounts were all locked behind a pay gate. That was enough to push out a loyal customer of 9 years. 
 
No other developer has the luxury of my "loyalty" patience of 9 years, and even that ran out. The minute I feel like a cash shop is taking precedence over the core game is the minute I'm out. That's why I never played SW:TOR and it's why I didn't last more than a few month with GW2. People praise that game endlessly and I honestly  haven't the slightest clue as to why. Hasn't anyone learned that exchanging real money for a fake currency that is set in hard amounts is a total rip-off? There is no way to quantify the worth of said fake currency, no way to control how much you want at any given time (it's all set amounts by the developer), and no logical, objective way to know what the rate of exchange would be.
 
It's a nice little con wrapped in happy paper and that you don't think too much about because "it's just a game." 
 
I won't quit if they go F2P, but I've yet to see it done correctly outside of MOBA games tbh. I've never seen an MMORPG pull it off. 
 
Edit: And yes, I'm aware that "pull it off" can be taken in many ways. I guess we'd have to say SW:TOR and GW2 and whatnot pull it off because, hey, they make lots of money. When I say "pull it off" I mean, deploy such a system in the game that feels totally fair to someone willing to pay a subscription fee. SW:TOR and GW2 have a lot of people who play it and who spend a lot of money in their shops. Millions of people smoke cigarettes and rot their lungs. Even more eat Big Macs. You know how many flies eat crap? Every one of them.
 
Big whoop.
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Wait, wait, let me get this straight.
 
People are actually advocating for more restrictive gameplay if we were to go to a F2P model?
 
Is this for real?
 
This has to be a first.	
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Wait, wait, let me get this straight.
 
People are actually advocating for more restrictive gameplay if we were to go to a F2P model?
 
Is this for real?
 
This has to be a first.
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Well, the thing with guild wars is the cash shop doesn't have any gamebreaking items. Just special costumes, tools and "funzies". Also things like a special mail delivery animation, or some musical instruments (which are pretty fun).
 
However, the great thing about it is the fact you can get all that without spending ANY real money since you buy stuff from the store with gems, which you can either purchase for real money or exchange for in game gold with a real time inflation / deflation model. 
 
To me, while it might take a while to grind gold to swap for gems, the option is there if you want to, so you can get everything just by playing. 
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Yes, why not? Not for subscribers, but for the F2P players. Subscribers would get everything they get now. Carbine make money and those who want to play free, can. Everyone wins. 
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Honestly, I think Housing and Crafting should both take huge hits in the F2P crowd. Like limited to Artisan level and can only place two plugs and a quarter the regular decor (or no Decor above a certain item level, or no Decor that doesn't come off the Decor Vendor. Something like that). Purchase a subscription or buy an a la carte Housing Package or Crafting Package ($25 each) to unlock on your account.
 
Limited bank and limited bag space. (Purchase a subscription for regular access or buy extra slots for incrementally larger sums $5, $10, $20 to unlock on your account)
 
Limited in-game cash accumulation, say 2 Plat max, but anything you make goes into Escrow, so when you finally subscribe, you can access the money you've earned.
 
No limit on any content up to GA, outside of the in-game cash lock. That way, people are doing content, even if their money is going into Escrow. If you want to raid past GA, purchase a subscription or spend $20 to access the next Raid (and every new Raid that comes along from that point forward).
 
No Rated PVP, period, without a subscription or purchasing the PVP Arena Pack to unlock your account.
 
So on and so forth. Give every freeloader the full range of content (PVE and PVP) up to final raiding and rated PVP. After that, they have to support the game financially, in some way, either through subscription or purchase of a la carte content.
 
TL;DR: Pay your subs and if they do it right, nothing would change for you.  :lol:  Again. Hopefully.	
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Because I know very, very few people who, if playing a F2P game, would enjoy being forced to purchase/subscribe to continue playing further, as compared to having a vanity cash shop but having all actual in game content be free. Bonus points when you can trade the vanity items in game/can purchase most of them for in game currency, using cash shop items is just a shortcut. (Such as housing items in Rift)
 
There's a reason games that only have vanity items on the cash shop still do very, very, VERY well.
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Well, I doubt you know even a fraction of 0.01% of people who play F2P games.
 
The original FFXI had many, many people, it was very popular and that you had to pay extra for character slots - monthly I believe, it was like $1 per month per character, it may have changed but it was this way over 10 years ago. 
 
Pretty sure rift had some dungeons only if you were a subscriber at the start of it's F2P era, which is when I quit. Maybe it changed I don't know. Also, nothing is gating the F2P crowd, it's just limiting their income (which is a GOOD thing for the economy on a game, remember when wildstar had all the bots whizzing around? It goes F2P then expect more of that. People can STILL do dungeons, but not repeatedly farm the same one over and over for renown. 
 
There NEEDS to be an incentive to subscribe. You're speaking as if WS is already F2P and their getting punished. No, it's still sub based and many don't want F2P at all. Those who subscribe need to be rewarded, and nothing change for them.
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Like I said, I've nothing against F2P players, especially if it helps the game, and I want Carbine to get recognised for this game because it truly is a masterpiece and I'm actually frustrated in the "gaming" community for not giving it the time of day. I also wish Carbine did way more to advertise it but, like most I don't like the children that comes along with it, it would be real nice if they could have the chat channels separate though with the option for subscribers to join F2P general (on by default I guess) but also with their own that would keep the childish trolling out. 
 
There's a lot that can be done though (haven't read all the thread so maybe some been suggested)
 
-F2P character slots limited to 2/3 - Perhaps sold in the shop with a max to 6 while subscribers get 12.
 
-Limit on Veteran Shiphands / Dungeons etc to once each per day (so they can't farm the same one over and over)
 
-CREDD can be bought but not sold until subscribed for X amount of months (I don't know, sounds iffy but it would be nice if they didn't come in and screwing with the economy so much).
 
-Limit on the amount of plat that can be gained per day/week/month or whatever (but if they get a high ticket item and go over the limit it won't take it off them)
 
-Housing decor limited to lowish number both inside and out (not sure how it would work if they stopped subscribing but if they stop subscribing they won't be able to add anything else if they go over the limit and can only put decor back into the crate until limits been reduced
 
-A little extreme maybe, but like trial accounts can not whisper subscribers unless accepted by subscriber (toggleable option for subber maybe)
 
-Limited mail options
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People don't seem to understand that restrictions like this cross the line into the "Pay to Win."
 
Restrictions will be the sign of my disappearance from this game.
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People don't seem to understand that restrictions like this cross the line into the "Pay to Win."
 
Restrictions will be the sign of my disappearance from this game.
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How is it pay-to-win? 
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The first problem is, there are a dozen different definitions of "pay 2 win", and since there is not some official MMO dictionary, there is no way to prove whose definition is "right". So unless you can come to an agreement on what that term even means, you definitely can't have a conversation about the topic.
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Because I know very, very few people who, if playing a F2P game, would enjoy being forced to purchase/subscribe to continue playing further, as compared to having a vanity cash shop but having all actual in game content be free. Bonus points when you can trade the vanity items in game/can purchase most of them for in game currency, using cash shop items is just a shortcut. (Such as housing items in Rift)
 
There's a reason games that only have vanity items on the cash shop still do very, very, VERY well.
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Izzi is talking about restrictions to the freeloaders, not to subscribing customers.
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It seems wrongheaded to me to relegate the definition of "Pay 2 Win" to the metaphysical gulags of "we can't come to a definition, therefore, cannot meaningfully discuss the topic". Just a feels I have. It seems like if we can come to a definition of what it is "to win" and quantify what is meaningful in these games and to the many players who play them we could actually commence on a discussion. 
 
Probably not happening on the internet though. Too bad. 
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Whenever someone uses the term "pay 2 win", my question is "win what?". If they are talking about some piece of gear, I can obviously understand how that can effect PvP. However, at the same time, most F2P games have methods for obtaining items from the cash shop without actually buying them yourself. Even the dreaded TOR allows people to sell cash shop items on the in game exchange, meaning you can get the item you want using in game creds, not real world money. IMO, you can't call something p2w if you have a way to get it without paying.
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yeah but if you are going to limit as well the amount of money someone can earn each day then this can be a real drag, they should not limit things like that.
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IMO, you can't call something p2w if you have a way to get it without paying.
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I agree with this--up to a point. Game developers have gotten quite good at "technically possible but never going to happen in practice for 99.9% of the playerbase", which I would call meeting the letter but not the spirit of the standard you're proposing.
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It seems wrongheaded to me to relegate the definition of "Pay 2 Win" to the metaphysical gulags of "we can't come to a definition, therefore, cannot meaningfully discuss the topic". Just a feels I have. It seems like if we can come to a definition of what it is "to win" and quantify what is meaningful in these games and to the many players who play them we could actually commence on a discussion. 
 
Probably not happening on the internet though. Too bad. 
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Actually... GW2 has content on their cash shop, they are the old living story missions.
 
But you can buy cash shop currency with ingame money so you can get them without spending any real money for them but these missions are not big part of the gameplay
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SWTOR's free to play is very restrictive and still very profitable for them
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Because I know very, very few people who, if playing a F2P game, would enjoy being forced to purchase/subscribe to continue playing further, as compared to having a vanity cash shop but having all actual in game content be free. Bonus points when you can trade the vanity items in game/can purchase most of them for in game currency, using cash shop items is just a shortcut. (Such as housing items in Rift)
 
There's a reason games that only have vanity items on the cash shop still do very, very, VERY well.
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Like I said, I've nothing against F2P players, especially if it helps the game, and I want Carbine to get recognised for this game because it truly is a masterpiece and I'm actually frustrated in the "gaming" community for not giving it the time of day. I also wish Carbine did way more to advertise it but, like most I don't like the children that comes along with it, it would be real nice if they could have the chat channels separate though with the option for subscribers to join F2P general (on by default I guess) but also with their own that would keep the childish trolling out. 
 
There's a lot that can be done though (haven't read all the thread so maybe some been suggested)
 
-F2P character slots limited to 2/3 - Perhaps sold in the shop with a max to 6 while subscribers get 12.
-Limit on Veteran Shiphands / Dungeons etc to once each per day (so they can't farm the same one over and over)
-CREDD can be bought but not sold until subscribed for X amount of months (I don't know, sounds iffy but it would be nice if they didn't come in and screwing with the economy so much).
-Limit on the amount of plat that can be gained per day/week/month or whatever (but if they get a high ticket item and go over the limit it won't take it off them)
-Housing decor limited to lowish number both inside and out (not sure how it would work if they stopped subscribing but if they stop subscribing they won't be able to add anything else if they go over the limit and can only put decor back into the crate until limits been reduced
-A little extreme maybe, but like trial accounts can not whisper subscribers unless accepted by subscriber (toggleable option for subber maybe)
-Limited mail options
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SWTOR's free to play is very restrictive and still very profitable for them
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This game doesn't have the phrase "Star Wars" in the title.
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Sneering at your paying customers because they haven't committed to paying the same amount next month is not a good way to keep paying customers.
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while that is true and they can probably afford to push their playerbase further without losing them, as zoralink said playing SWTOR as a free game is an exercise in frustation. The game is designed to push you towards easing that pain by spending money, either on a sub or by proxy through buying items off the AH that somebody else paid real money for
 
It may not be great from a players POV but is great from the companies POV, somebody made the statement that restrictive models don't work. they clearly can work.
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while that is true and they can probably afford to push their playerbase further without losing them, as zoralink said playing SWTOR as a free game is an exercise in frustation. The game is designed to push you towards easing that pain by spending money, either on a sub or by proxy through buying items off the AH that somebody else paid real money for
 
It may not be great from a players POV but is great from the companies POV, somebody made the statement that restrictive models don't work. they clearly can work.
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And my point is that I see people in this topic advocating for similar restrictions to what SWTOR has.
 
It boggles my mind. SWTOR's model is almost universally hated, yet in this topic there are people advocating for a nearly identical model.
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To be fair, SWTOR's F2P model requires you to pay to unlock parts of the UI, crew skills, the ability to wear epic gear, the ability to hide your helmet, the ability to coordinate colors on gear (separately for character and companion), the ability to display titles, access to guild bank and personal bank, etc. These are the things that make SWTOR's model almost universally hated.
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Are you saying WildStar is a bad game? o.0 The people you see complaining about it in places outside of the official forums are still using the same kinds of complaints from launch that no longer actually apply, and the vast majority of return posts are people gushing about how awesome and improved WildStar is. The game itself is awesome.
 
Too many people are conditioned by the lie of f2p, though.
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A game being good is subjective. If the game was as good as you, me, and many in the forums, say it is I truly find it hard to believe that as few people are giving it another try. 
 
Yes, I have numbers that say it's "few"; the quarterly report. The "resurgance" lots was talking about is not as surging as they thought. Unless the goal posts have to be moved again to next quarterly report.
 
I'm flat out sorry, those numbers don't match what is trying to be portrayed. It's time that reality was faced.
 
I absolutely believe Wildstar is a good, not great, game. There are way WAY WAY more that disagree with me.
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Yes. You also permanently unlock them if you were playing at the time they were released. (And they usually last for a decent amount of time)
 
The missions are also not really the same thing as not being able to do more than one veteran dungeon/shiphand a day. Not to mention GW2 has no real endgame to speak of, compared to Wildstar where you are effectively gimped if you are unable to do dungeons and such.
 
Plus the currency thing you mentioned. 
 
All that said, I'll point again to Rift as an excellent F2P model.
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To be fair, SWTOR's F2P model requires you to pay to unlock parts of the UI, crew skills, the ability to wear epic gear, the ability to hide your helmet, the ability to coordinate colors on gear (separately for character and companion), the ability to display titles, access to guild bank and personal bank, etc. These are the things that make SWTOR's F2P model almost universally hated.
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While I'm one of the people who hates it, I find it difficult to justify my stance when it's perhaps the most profitable F2P model in the western market.
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Bear in mind that just because it's one of the most profitable, it doesn't mean it's an okay way to operate.  Making  F2P is so unbearably shitty that you'd be an idiot not to subscribe is pretty damn shady.
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Oh yeah, it's incredibly shady, especially with how their messaging is almost geared to make you feel like a lesser being if you aren't a subscriber. I'm just still sort of confused how it's so successful. They have the Star Wars IP, but that wasn't able to carry them through a standard sub based model, so I don't know if that's what's carrying through this shitty model.
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Wildstar's sub model is vastly superior to any f2p model.  F2p/ b2p models don't dominate the market across all the genres (ib4 the bandwagon fallacy decriers; bandwagon is a principle of market capitalism).	
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I'd support a Wildstar sub model if it was full subscriber access on the back of a f2p format.
 
I'd also pay 8$ a month for Wildstar. 15$ is  too much when comparing it other games like WoW @ 15$, or FFXIV @ 9$	
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{| class="blockquote"
To be fair, SWTOR's F2P model requires you to pay to unlock parts of the UI, crew skills, the ability to wear epic gear, the ability to hide your helmet, the ability to coordinate colors on gear (separately for character and companion), the ability to display titles, access to guild bank and personal bank, etc. These are the things that make SWTOR's F2P model almost universally hated.
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Because honestly, despite a lot of the hate it's received, it's actually a pretty solid MMO. Before Wildstar, some of the most fun healing I've had was with Operative in SWTOR. Using energy as a resource as a healer completely changes how you have to heal. It's also fairly unique in regards to the story, with the various dialogue choices (Even if a lot of times they don't really matter all that much). The individual class stories are also pretty strong, the Imperial Agent as a light side character was actually a fantastic storyline.
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Wildstar's sub model is vastly superior to any f2p model. F2p/ b2p models don't dominate the market across all the genres (ib4 the bandwagon fallacy decriers; bandwagon is a principle of market capitalism).
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I'm trying to understand this post. There are many games with F2P models that perform much better than Wildstar's sub model, so any evidence-based analysis makes your claim at the start unequivocally false. That makes the quote at the end remarkably ironic.
 
Was this sarcasm and I missed it?
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Allow me. SWTOR is based on the Star Wars franchise, which has enough power to draw people back to the movie theaters to systematically destroy their fond childhood memories not once, but three times in a row. Thus, a mediocre WoW clone set in outer space with a frankly abusive F2P model that most players would never even consider tolerating in another game can be successful in spite of these problems if it gives its players lightsabers and X-wings.
 
The importance of the IP in SWTOR's continued existence cannot be overstated.
 
Wildstar is not part of the Star Wars franchise, cannot give its players lightsabers and X-wings, and cannot abuse its players in the same way without losing them.
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Eh.  I stopped playing when I realized I could draw more than twelve parallels between my Sith Juggernaut and my Night Elf Prot Warrior.
 
That and the questing bored me silly.
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Personally, the only game I actually want to pay a sub for is WOW. Not because I like paying a sub, but wow is solid in most ways..its quality. Yes  i'm a bit boored With wow and also i'm pretty vain so I can only stand outdated Graphics for a certain amount of time before I unsubscribe again..... but it is a solid premium quality product!!! (just like e.g. BMW is in the car world)
 
I would love for ws to go F2P..and the funny thing is. I will pay more than what i do now with a sub:) i actually think carbines is loosing Money on me right now...and thats bad. You could say..BUY Creed to support WS...Yes I could, but I dont need plat...what am i suppose to buy with plat?
 
Provide me with more ways to spend my real life Money on:)	
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Personally, the only game I actually want to pay a sub for is WOW. Not because I like paying a sub, but wow is solid in most ways..its quality. Yes  i'm a bit boored With wow and also i'm pretty vain so I can only stand outdated Graphics for a certain amount of time before I unsubscribe again..... but it is a solid premium quality product!!! (just like e.g. BMW is in the car world)
 
I would love for ws to go F2P..and the funny thing is. I will pay more than what i do now with a sub:) i actually think carbines is loosing Money on me right now...and thats bad. You could say..BUY Creed to support WS...Yes I could, but I dont need plat...what am i suppose to buy with plat?
 
Provide me with more ways to spend my real life Money on:)
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I dunno if any of it is true, and I'm not too bothered about the ethics of the supposed leak, I just want Wildstar to thrive, so I can enjoy it.
If that means it has to go F2P (and I think it does and will), I welcome the change.
 
The news got me so hyped up on playing again that I just re-subbed. There's some Chua logic there.
 
So I'm back on the leveling, finding the combat as fresh as ever, and I'm happy to see at least some people in every zone.
Just playing the game for hours over the last day has given me a renewed sense that it is something special, more than worthy of being played by many.
 
I've got a funny feeling about that first Wildstar birthday coming up soon: June 3rd.
Not a bad day for some breaking news.
Make it good.	
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			If it goes f2p in any style other than SWTOR's, I won't touch this game again.Free to play is almost universally awful.	
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Drop the sub price to $10/month, make game download cheaper or free, and add a cash shop for cosmetic/housing/pet/etc items. Lower psychological barrier to entry, more income for the company in volume of subs and cash shop sales.
 
Discuss?	
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Drop the sub price to $10/month, make game download cheaper or free, and add a cash shop for cosmetic/housing/pet/etc items. Lower psychological barrier to entry, more income for the company in volume of subs and cash shop sales.
 
Discuss?
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If it goes f2p in any style other than SWTOR's, I won't touch this game again.
 
Free to play is almost universally awful.
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Any style... other than SWTOR's...?
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Buy the box, buy CREDD, never pay a sub fee again.
 
It's pretty easy, really.
 
{| class="blockquote"
 
I'd support a Wildstar sub model if it was full subscriber access on the back of a f2p format.
 
I'd also pay 8$ a month for Wildstar. 15$ is too much when comparing it other games like WoW @ 15$, or FFXIV @ 9$
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Buy the box, buy CREDD, never pay a sub fee again.
 
It's pretty easy, really.
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Not selling CREDD atm because I still have over 50 plat atm.
So could probably sell a bit more to get the 80plat speed upgrade but still....	
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If it goes f2p in any style other than SWTOR's, I won't touch this game again.
 
Free to play is almost universally awful.
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If it goes f2p in any style other than SWTOR's, I won't touch this game again.
 
Free to play is almost universally awful.
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Does not compute?!?!
 
Anyways, Marvel Heroes' F2P is pretty awesome.  It's completely free no sub at all.  You can buy Heroes and costumes for real money or but them with in game currency.  I think that costumes drop too, but don't quote me on that.
 
I think the only thing that you really need to buy is extra bank slots if you want, but they're like 2.50 for an extra 50-100 slots.
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Haven't seen a single Costume drop yet, sometimes handed out, but that's their main source of income.
Everything else can be bought ingame with a little bit of effort.
But I have to agree, Marvel Heroes is a really fair implementation of F2P, and does not force you at any point to buy something from the cashshop, although maybe for the bank slots.
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What about this?
 
Carbine, Sell me 24 Slot bags at 5~8$ a peice, I'll buy them.
I've always bought the bags/inventory expansions if they were permanent in every F2P MMO I've played except Vindictus.
 
I'll buy them until my character's bank and inventory bag slots are filled up.
 
That might be a little bit pay to win mabye? Or maybe not because it's just inventory/bank space.
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As amusing as this has been, I believe this thread has gone on long enough.
 
Re-reading everything again (work is awfully quiet today), was pretty painful, and I just want to say that most of you know nothing of which you are talking about. This thread has no value what so ever, you can all preach that you are helping, but really so few of you are. The opinions shared, can be accounted for, but people are reading into facts, and pulling magical facts from facts (factception) that do not exist. 
 
I recommend, we leave this thread, and leave something like this to people that know what they are doing. The marketing experts. At the end of the day, this thread is going around in circles, and someone has got to stop this pitiful thread that embarrasses the entire Wildstar community.
 
 
 
Small FYI, putting a ;-) at the end of a post, makes you look like a right gentleman's sausages.	
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Character name changes 20$(Shop already sells these at that Price)
Carbine can make Mystery drop boxes that drop in the game and sell the keys in the shop.(that have Cash Shop items, Eldan Signs, Platinum amounts of cash, in game pets, in game mount flairs, ect. in their drop table)
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Requires too much change in Wildstar to have actually items worth storing.
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I could say Chua are the best race in the game, and you'd find a reason to disagree with me, wouldn't you.
 
Why?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I could say Chua are the best race in the game, and you'd find a reason to disagree with me, wouldn't you.
----
			
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Small FYI, putting a ;-) at the end of a post, makes you look like a right gentleman's sausages.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Wait, what?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's nothing at the moment that's even worth storing in your bank for long amount of time.
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{| class="blockquote"
Wait, what?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why?
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