102094-carbine-youd-have-alot-more-people-still-playing-if

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== Content ==
			
Disclaimer: I have a guild, I am attuned, we raid, my gear is fine.
 
 
You didn't use so many walls, walls you intended to keep players subscribing longer.
 
 
The dungeon wall of the attunement process which has wiped out a lot of players who just don't have the time to organize proper groups or the capacity to clear the 5mans under time limit, or willing guildmates to carry them. I've completed my attunement some time ago but it's too much for many more and they just stop playing. 
You'd have a lot more people still playing, wiping on x89 trash pulls if it weren't for the attunement wall.
 
 
The Elder Gem wall which causes players to max out on elder gems in one or two days, leading them to have no means to progress their characters in a meaningful way. After they've logged in once or twice a week. This causes them to log in and sit around wondering what they can do. 
You'd have a lot more people still playing if they could simply log in for an hour and obtain some EG aka. supplemental leveling past 50.
 
 
The medal wall which causes instances to be about some arbitrary objectives instead of hey, lets kill all these monsters, some bosses, get some currency, finish the awesome last boss and get some awesome loot and do it all over again! The most recent changes(read nerfs) in loot allocation, contrasted to the ease and power of crafted gear causes players to not see any purpose to run dungeons other than for fun or for attunement. 
You'd have a lot more people still playing if they could just go farm some equipment appropriately rewarded considering the content's difficulty.
 
 
The RNG wall. The one you added on top of successfully clearing the dungeon, the last boss, defeating other group members' competitive Need rolls. Guess what, the item finally dropped, but it's not any good. 
You'd have a lot more players still playing if they had some certainty their efforts and successes would be rewarded. This is being rectified to a certain extent, but will it be too little too late?
 
 
I really do want to see this game succeed, but with nothing but a PVP patch and a few balance tweaks on the horizon, why hold steadfast to these cheap design decisions?
"3 weeks since last logged on" all over my friends, circles and guild roster. People left guildless because leadership has moved on. Half guilds transfering to merge and carry on raiding with other half guilds.
 
Instead of increasing the lifespan of the game, the walls have stymied overall player capacity to even enjoy the little content you have provided for level capped players so far.
There's only so much blighthaven-crimson-northern wastes one can handle, especially when all one gets for it is gold.
 
Do away or heavily modify the attunement, do away with the elder gem cap, fix adventure and dungeon drops and give the larger playerbase a reason to log in.	
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			Hate to say it but I hit 50 a week or more ago and I'm already seeing some of these issues he's talking about,...	
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Oh and I forgot one, most people haven't encountered it yet and I am not at it either.
 
 
300 Partial Primal Patterns PER player for attunement to the 40man.
 
Needs no elaborating.	
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Oh and I forgot one, most people haven't encountered it yet and I am not at it either.
 
 
300 Partial Primal Patterns PER player for attunement to the 40man.
 
Needs no elaborating.
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			I agree.	
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			Tank amazing points, wish i could upvote 100 times haha	
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			Yet Chua see guilds raiding and people clearing attunement step by step.	
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Yet Chua see guilds raiding and people clearing attunement step by step.
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chua, oliver whatever, do you honestly not see the problems around you? i dont know what server you are on, but on mine people cant even poach players from other guilds to fill there roster, and some guilds are spending raid nights running new players through silvers JUST to be able to raid another night down the line. and thats for 20 mans!
   i love this game too i really do but damn, i want it to grow, and something needs to give
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Want game to grow?
Make noise about game. Twitter, videos, talk, post.
Only complaining about game on forum does NOT make game grow.
Chua not saying issues not exist and not addressed, but game lives by it's community. And all Chua see from this community is crying, whining, and bitching.
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Want game to grow?
Make noise about game. Twitter, videos, talk, post.
Only complaining about game on forum does NOT make game grow.
Chua not saying issues not exist and not addressed, but game lives by it's community. And all Chua see from this community is crying, whining, and bitching.
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Do away or heavily modify the attunement, do away with the elder gem cap, fix adventure and dungeon drops and give the larger playerbase a reason to log in.
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There's no point bringing in new players if the reason the old ones are leaving still exist.
 
This form of feedback is to unshackle the game to unleash its full glory.
 
At that point you don't need to sell it to anyone, it will sell itself.
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			You would have hated my Dungeons and Dragons campaigns.	
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You would have hated my Dungeons and Dragons campaigns.
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Chua not agree fully.
Chua agree that feedback is needed. Game has issues need fixing.
But amount of megativity on forum will not attrack people, will actually push many away.
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call me selfish all you want, but on a personal level, id rather push my friends away from a game that could potentially frustrate or annoy them, than have them push me away because i advised them to spend money on a product that has yet to live up to its full potential.
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Then stop complaining population drops, cause that is source of problem, self created.
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			I really question whether half the population understands Carbines intent, and I pray they don't cave like Blizzard did after the Activision merge. Part of the process is building a community in the game...so events like world bosses, advents, dungeons etc. place people in the position to make friends along the way and develop a community unless you just want to solo everything or never meet new people, wtf is the point? Not everyone started with a premade guild with tons of friends...there are good reasons for every part of the attunement process and they are going over your head.	
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	RlyAfka and Tankanidis, amen brothers, nothing to add, you've said it all.
 	
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Then stop complaining population drops, cause that is source of problem, self created.
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wait , are you honestly suggesting i lie to my friends in the attempt to get them to spend money on a product i dont work for that has issues created by the people who made the product, in the hope of saving said product? and if i dont, its MY problem? im sorry i thought id see past the silly RP (im all for RP but not once did i see a chua in game refer to himself as Chua, they speak in 3rd person yes but they use their bloody names, Mondo thinks yes FOR SCIENCE!) but....im no sorry im just done
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Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.	
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Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
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Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
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I really question whether half the population understands Carbines intent, and I pray they don't cave like Blizzard did after the Activision merge. Part of the process is building a community in the game...so events like world bosses, advents, dungeons etc. place people in the position to make friends along the way and develop a community unless you just want to solo everything or never meet new people, wtf is the point? Not everyone started with a premade guild with tons of friends...there are good reasons for every part of the attunement process and they are going over your head.
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			I really couldn't agree more with this post. I found myself enticed while leveling my character by the challenge of the dungeons and the idea that adventures could be an event based alternative to the monotony of dungeons (for those who get tired of the 'grind, kill boss, repeat' system). Now I fear how long I can continue playing because I've seen every aspect of the game that I figured would be enjoyable is made the opposite for some reason. The adventures turned out to be fairly boring, and because the gear they provide is made near useless by crafted gear, I haven't done a single one since I finished attunement to them, why would I? I find the dungeons fun, but they take a fair amount of time,and in the end, I feel like I have nothing to show for it when I finish it. Who cares that you killed Stormtalon? You did it too slow, now you get no loot and no progress.	
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Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
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My Medic is 49 and about to hit 50 and i cant WAIT to see all this stuff hehe
 
But one thing i've always wondered is if the long attunements were put in place as a way to pace progression right at release.  Rather then people hitting 50 1 week after release, then another week later the first raid has been cleared and then you have people who are bored.  How many raids are there right now anyways? and how many bosses do they have in each one?	
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I really question your capacity to think :P  Walls have NEVER brought anyone together, they're meant to separate and you can see it at work here in WS, they're spiltting the community. Walls will not build a community, fun and rewarding challenges will. fun and rewarding content will. 
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			Well adventure and dungeon is pretty much destroyed with the nerfing of gold loot unless you play for fun like in WOW, better hope sabotage in August is good as this will make or break the game.	
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Pardon my skipping over most of your points..
this thread is not about dumbing down the content, it's about removing unnecessary walls and time limits.  
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I'm sorry Nili, but I cannot really agree.
I think the attunement process and these walls are there for a good reason. As a guildleader and raidleader for many years, I've always aimed to give everyone a chance at raiding.
I always tried to drag people into the raids who were working hard, doing their attunements, were prepared.
But as fellow guild leader, you  need to agree with me on this:  Some people do not belong into a raid.
 
No matter how hard someone tries, sometimes they are just not cut out to be raid material.
We all have our limits and skills and stuff we're good at. Raiding is sometimes not one of them.
When I look at myself:
 
Final Fantasy XIV:
I carried people up to Primal Extreme modes. I play a Lalafell WHM.   Character: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/6407720/
I carried my guild and friends pretty much through all the raid fights after learning them.
Untill I discovered Titan Extreme mode and Bahamut's second coil. Still not cleared them myself because I struggled with some of the roations.
Once I master them, I'm sure that I can get others through as well.
Do I whine about it being too hard? No, I kept practising and trying till I succeeded.
 
World of Warcraft:
I stopped somewhere in Pandaria: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/Gul'dan/Nashiko/simple
The game was not challenging for me anymore and I simply decided to quit and move to FF14.
I've been there since day 1. Clearing content, doing hard modes and heroics whenever I could.
Have I seen it all? no perhaps not, but I was happy raiding on the level I was.
 
EvE & SWG:
Sandbox MMO's yes.
Grindfests.
But I've done them.
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			Then how about giving us motivation doing grindfest instead of just letting us craft our way pass it. Seriously don't think anyone would be serious in raids if they play for fun in dungeon after crafting the best gear.	
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Then how about giving us motivation doing grindfest instead of just letting us craft our way pass it. Seriously don't think anyone would be serious in raids if they play for fun in dungeon after crafting the best gear.
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I don't have to agree with you. I'm not obligated to.
Breaking down walls and timers won't let nubs in, it will let more of the players in who want to work hard in.
I'm not going to post my guild leading experience because it's not relevant. I've been a guild leader for 8 years now, my husband, my raid leader has been leading raids for longer.
So again, I don't agree. If people want to raid and want to work for it and prove themselves, then I'll help them get raid ready. If we can't clear content because someone keeps nubbing around and running in the fire I'll take him or her aside and have patience when talking to them and helping them the best way I know how.
 
Because being a leader means leading by example and with patience.
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everyone plays the game different.
Yes sure, you can craft your way past it. If that's your way of doing it, then do so.
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The attunement can be bought from other players, so you'll still see some raiders who have no clue what they are doing. (for 45p i could have all 4 dungeons to silver delivered to me, woot)
 
It's just that now most guilds have to spend x hours per day attuning new members to then do the 1 raid they want to.
 
Instead of dragging x players to said raid, wiping it up, seeing who learnt and who didn't, and moving forward.
 
Other issues with long winded time consuming attunements, is down the road once all the raiders are burnt out and focused on new content only, no-one will want to run anyone through the attunement anymore, and instead they will just poach players from other guilds who are already attuned.
 
Same thing happened in Vanilla WoW. Top progression guilds cannibalising medium progression guilds and so forth. Made things drama filled and hateful. Medium paced guilds went no where in their progression because their best players kept getting siphoned off, leading them to an endless cycle of re-attuning new members, to have them poached too.
 
So i want to see the majority of level 50's in raids, getting smashed by mechanics. Let the good players progress through the bosses and those slower on learning strategies wipe on the first boss endlessly. No-one wants it 'less difficult'.
 
But most want it less time-gated.
 
Let people burn 100 hours on boss strategies and farming for repair money.
 
Dont make them burn those 100 hours instead on a series of time wasting steps to get the right to attempt to raid. You'll burn them out before they even begin.
 
Even worse, don't make the people who did burn 100 hours on attuning, have to spend another 500 attuning others just to get the chance to continue their raiding.
 
People should be playing content because it is hard, rewarding, and fun.
 
The points listed on the page before show where the un-fun is, and to remove it to make the game what it is supposed to be.
 
A Wild Star of a good time. (cheesy pun for 100 thanks Alex)	
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			Should have put the "do away with elder gem cap" at the top, easier to tell it's not worth the time that way.	
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Wow, Oli broke character... truly the sky is falling....
 
On a serious note I'd like to point out a few things. First off, no matter how much people don't like it, or don't want to admit it... Oli is absolutely correct. There need to be walls to serious raid content for several reasons. One indeed is to limit raids to those capable of jumping through the hoops. And while you can wintrade your way through SOME of the attunement process, you can't wintrade it all. The other is also to build community. Oli had some examples from FFXIV, I'll take this back to FFXI because reasons.
 
In FFXI for those of you who never played it, the main 'raid' content (spawned and instanced HNM's) was entirely behind walls that make W* look like the New Orleans levy system during Katrina. I mean this literally; You could not access the open world zones where the items to spawn the baddest HNM's with out completely clearing the XI equivalent of 'attunement'. And these werent a few solo quests, some medla ranks in adventures, a10 world bosses, and fluff. You had to complete tremendously gruelling quest chains that were nothing more than massive time and skill sinks, requiring a full group of 6 at minimum (and 12-24 for some) just to get access to the areas to farm for and initiate major HNM instances. And failure meant farming and running all over again (and usually more leveling, since death took away exp and level). For Sky this wasn't the worst; with a good guild you could run through it in a few weeks. For Sea when CoP was first released it took a month in a good guild, and monthS in a less than stellar one. And that was JUST to gain access to the zone in which you could farm for another few months to spawn Absolute Virtue and attempt to kill him (which no guild ever successfully did pre- level cap increase with out exploits).
 
And oddly enough, through all of that people still loved that game. I can't say what others enjoyed, but the feeling of accomplishment the whole way through was really quite a driver. I recall spending 3 weeks just finishing the promyvion quests to get access to Tavnazia (where I had to complete the rest of the quests to get access to Sea). There were no purples as a reward for the instanced bosses that we had to kill; just being able to access a zone.... and that was just fine. The vast majority of time in XI was spent with guilds helping their members get through the walls to the 'raid' quality HNM content, and it had a great community because of it. Now a days the game is totally revised, and for lack of a better turn of phrase, it's catered to casuals now'. Leveling to cap no longer takes many months of full 6-man coordinated grinding; the attunement questlines are truncated and made easier...the walls are lowered substantially...
 
 
But like Oli points out... that just kills games. And the reason it does is for what I can only think of as one major thing; accomplishment. The biggest driving factor IMHO behind enjoying an MMO is in feeling as if you accomplished something. Somewhere along the line that became twisted into grinding to get the shiniest gear; or racing through content. But in a game like XI where getting anything was a major chore, when you did overcome attunement questlines, when you finally crafted that +1 scorpion harness, when you stepped foot on Sky for the first time.... That was achievement, and it... was.... awesome!
 
It's been said here with some frequency, that the joy lies in the journey, not the destination. What W* attunement gieves us is a trail of little achievements to enjoy as we work our way to Raids. It may seem like a lot, but it isn't. Objectively its a minute time expenditure for progressing in a self respecting MMO, 
 
No pain no gain... and just as much; with out a little bit of painful effort, the rewards you do get will always be much less sweet.
 
-Naz	
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OP has hit the nail on the head. Any other bugs or slight annoyances are minor compared to these big items and they will drive players from the game until it becomes unsustainable. Which is a huge shame because we all know this game has huge potential in almost every aspect.
 
There is one point I disagree on at that is taking silver dungeons out of attunement. Yes it means more players are going to quit because they can't see end game content but you may be left an essential better core player group, if that group can keep itself sustainable. This one to me seems like a legitimate decision which is up to carbine as to how they want to run there game. Having said that I think bringing the requirement to bronze would be a move in the direction if they gave bronze a semi forgiving timer (+30%) for every dungeons time.
 
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Yet Chua see guilds raiding and people clearing attunement step by step.
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I will send wall of RNG to hit that damn whiteknight chua.
 
RNG that you will get epic drop in adventure/dungeon (20-25% chance)
RNG that you will get the epic item that you can equip (10% chance from the biggest loot table ever because every class every roll need completely different stat, no stat sharing at all)
RNG that you will get enough rune slot for the epic to be worthy
RNG that you will get correct rune slot for your own class
RNG that your tank friend or your healer friend and your dps friend will not press need on the dps item that they can wear
RNG over RNG over RNG over RNG over RNG....
RNGRNGRNG YOUR MAMA CARBINE! *cupcake*this shit system. Call me loot bitches all you want, but we need goal to aim for not this shit rngrngrng everywhere.
 
And screw the attument gating, you officially droved almost all of my guildies away and gone. Other games gating people at specific boss, not blocking them at the entrance so that they cant see shit. Other games give people proper loot rewards with less RNG so they can do at their free time with their friends or PUGs. This game forced you to have your own solid 5man party, if your friend is missing, you bite the dirt, nothing to do except mindless daily grind. Cant even PUG shit because the reward is sooo RNG not worth the time and some content basicly too hard for PUG to handle...
 
Oh and dont even mention PvP where people with wintrade 1800 rating gears just wtfpwn everyone. There is no hope or no point to play PvP at all if you keep throw us against those players who has 1500/1800 rating gears! This is absurd overpower gears that need "seperate bracket"... Fix the damn shit or at least normalize everyone to same stat in practice run!
 
Enough said.	
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OP has hit the nail on the head. Any other bugs or slight annoyances are minor compared to these big items and they will drive players from the game until it becomes unsustainable. Which is a huge shame because we all know this game has huge potential in almost every aspect.
 
There is one point I disagree on at that is taking silver dungeons out of attunement. Yes it means more players are going to quit because they can't see end game content but you may be left an essential better core player group, if that group can keep itself sustainable. This one to me seems like a legitimate decision which is up to carbine as to how they want to run there game. Having said that I think bringing the requirement to bronze would be a move in the direction if they gave bronze a semi forgiving timer (+30%) for every dungeons time.
 
 
How can you be so blind
 
Most of the people in this thread like the core of this game and want it succeed. Can you please put your blatant fan boying aside for a second and realize that this game needs fixes as does any. I know your invested in this game and by saying it has problems why are directly insulting your ego but you need to get over that. What happens when the game dies and there is no one on your server because other people have left because they feel that there are huge problems with the game that carbine hasn't fixed? Your going to be damn lonely. So instead of posting damn useless shit like "everything is fine" in every thread try and see other peoples perspectives.
 
And while we you are it why doesn't "Chua" look at this thread where 90% of the hardcore 6/6 raiding guilds are having huge problems what you are saying is fine.
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/100009-from-a-world-first-raider-on-raiding/
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Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
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Wow, Oli broke character... truly the sky is falling....
 
On a serious note I'd like to point out a few things. First off, no matter how much people don't like it, or don't want to admit it... Oli is absolutely correct. There need to be walls to serious raid content for several reasons.
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			It's funny to me that veteran attunement is based around skipping as much as you possibly can. Takes tons of skill to avoid all that content to be ready to raid.	
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Let me know how you feel when you get 6/6 GA and need to farm another 200+ primal patterns. your right its only what 100 runs of gold STL?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's funny to me that veteran attunement is based around skipping as much as you possibly can. Takes tons of skill to avoid all that content to be ready to raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Cool Story, they drop pretty well in GA, they also drop less well, but decently in dungeons... and of course for all you underachievers, you can buy them from the Elder Gem vendor.
 
I will feel the same way I do now. Put in the effort and actually feel like you achieved something, novel concept.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Are you trolling or something? you will have around 100 Prime patterns when you finish GA. From there your guild needs 8000 primal patterns, So you will have to run 100+ runs of STL gold. Your telling me that's feeling like you achieved something? Assuming each STL takes around 20 mins thats 33 hours of farming you have to do, in which you cannot make any mistake otherwise you lose gold.
 
Now sure you could buy some from AH may 1-2k but you will find that you will exhaust that real quick, you know what guilds have been doing? transferring characters to buy up patterns on other servers.
 
you will probably blow this post off because you are either too stupid or too arrogant to admit your wrong. But if you ever actually do get to 6/6 GA and then complete the next attunement step come back then and tell me you had a great time doing it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'll spell it out for you..
 
Y-O-U
 
C-A-N
 
B-U-Y
 
T-H-E-M
 
W-I-T-H
 
E-L-D-E-R
 
G-E-M-S
 
If you aren't a rock you use all of the methods to accrue your partials > patterns. 
----
			
Coming in to derail the thread and get it locked!
Ready...ready...this is something that never never happens!
 
Niliana and our favorite chua! THANK YOU FOR HAVING DIFFERENT FEELINGS AND NOT "CUPCAKING" EACH OTHER. THANK YOU FOR BEING RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER!
 
That is all I wanted to say since few people seem to be able to disagree without making it a flame war. Good job guys both of you for real.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Coming in to derail the thread and get it locked!
Ready...ready...this is something that never never happens!
 
Niliana and our favorite chua! THANK YOU FOR HAVING DIFFERENT FEELINGS AND NOT "CUPCAKING" EACH OTHERthat is all...
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{| class="blockquote"
LOL!!!!
 
It would require 6000 elder gems which would take 40 weeks to get 0.oooooooooooooooooooooooooo and your going to Have spent all your elder gems on Ability and amp points???? Again get to the step yourself and then say its fine.
----
			
I couldn't agree more with the OP. I'm not saying this is how you also should feel about the game. But Tankanidis nailed most of it IMO. 
 
 
This game is reminding me more and more about Diablo 3 when it first came out: grind gold (plat) and buy the gear - I stopped playing that game after 3 weeks
 
I want the excitement from getting new gear when finally killing an encounter and I wouldn't mind farming the same adventure/dungeon over and over again (in between progression nights with the guild) to get THE BiS preraid pieces from adventures and dungeons. Because I want to optimize what I can in my own time. But that's just it - the chance for that to happen is so low that it would be more rewarding (considering the time spent playing (NOT THE FUN OF IT)) to FARM plat and buy crafted blues with the right RUNES.
 
 
Runes. Before I hit lvl 50 I didn't gave them much thought. But now they are almost ALL that matters on a piece of gear. And yes - they are random - random like the stats on the legendary items were in Diablo 3. That will make me go "WOW I just got this new close to BiS piece of gear I have been farming for for....¤#@& that's the most useless runes ever....arrrrrggg" (silent sobbing)
 
 
What to do... what other things could I be optimizing..right! Amps and ability points (BAM - hit by giant wall)
 
 
I started playing wildstar for the pve endgame and I am struggling to find reasons to go on.
 	
----
			a lot more people would be playing if a lot more people were playing.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you are running GA, dungeons, buying some, AND getting some through EG's tell me mr. Mc Thinks a lot, how long will that take a single toon? 
 
It seems you may also have forgotten that while the EG you can get per week from gaining elder points are capped, the EG you can get from non-elder points is not per-see. It's been the intention from the start that more methods of obtaining EG's outside of EP's will be introduced. 
 
Stop, think, move along.
----
			
I don't have a 50 yet, my main is now lvl 40 so i'm getting there slowly but surely (and yes i'm an altaholic). I see a lot of posts with the gates problems. I understand that people don't want to dumbed down Wildstar but i'm not sure about removing all or some of the gates. I've read almost all posts in this threads and i have some questions for the OP or for anyone who can give me an answer.
 
By removing the gates, does it make the game easier so players will rush through endgame way faster?
 
Some of you have said that it will be easier to bring new guildies to raid if we remove those gates but what about all the others who will simply stop playing when they will have nothing else to do?  
 
After all this game is only 2 months old and obviously don't have all the contents that 5 or 10 years MMOs have. Personnaly i see more massive quitting by doing so which bring me to my last question.
 
By removing those gates does it make Carbine shoot in his own foot?
 
What i mean is im not sure that removing gates will bring more players. Actually i see more people quitting out of boredom.
 
I have failed to see where Carbine have said that they wanted Wildstar to have the same numbers of subs or be most popular as some other MMOs. The only thing they have said is this game will be fun and more hardcore than the other MMO's. Now i understand that gates are not really hardcore content but again maybe, just maybe Carbine don't see those gates as hardcore content too but more of a way to keep their player base active. The way i see it, those gates will remain till they get enough content to remove some of them.	
----
			That's what I figure there is only two raid dungeon currently maybe they would removed some of the gates if there are more.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
By removing the gates, does it make the game easier so players will rush through endgame way faster?
 
Some of you have said that it will be easier to bring new guildies to raid if we remove those gates but what about all the others who will simply stop playing when they will have nothing else to do?  
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's what I figure there is only two raid dungeon currently maybe they would removed some of the gates if there are more.
----
			i think you nailed it, my guild stop playing because of what you just described	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yet Chua see guilds raiding and people clearing attunement step by step.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Then stop complaining population drops, cause that is source of problem, self created.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I really question whether half the population understands Carbines intent, and I pray they don't cave like Blizzard did after the Activision merge. Part of the process is building a community in the game...so events like world bosses, advents, dungeons etc. place people in the position to make friends along the way and develop a community unless you just want to solo everything or never meet new people, wtf is the point? Not everyone started with a premade guild with tons of friends...there are good reasons for every part of the attunement process and they are going over your head.
----
			
Carabine is the first development team that is trying to prove that thay can have an awesome MMO without a stable player base ;-)
 
Seriously I have never seen in the history of games a game that brilliant in potential and core design that has been consistently disappointing people with each consecutive patch due to horrible design choices.
 
 
To Carabine:
You guys should really sell the rights to this game to another company that has more resources than you because otherwise its slowly going to sink.
I admire your decision to leave the Blizzard team - it took a lot of guts. But you have proven that even the most brilliant idea won't work without resources (which you don't have)
I disagree with most of Blizzard's design choices, but at least they are consistant - I can't say the same about you. It really hurts to see such a great MMO go to waste.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Carabine is the first development team that is trying to prove that thay can have an awesome MMO without a stable player base ;-)
 
Seriously I have never seen in the history of games a game that brilliant in potential and core design that has been consistently disappointing people with each consecutive patch.
 
 
To Carabine:
You guys should really sell the rights to this game to another company that has more resources than you because otherwise its slowly going to sink.
I admire your decision to leave the Blizzard team - it took a lot of guts. But you have proven that even the most brilliant idea won't work without resources (which you don't have)
I disagree with most Blizzard design choices, but at least they are consistent - I can't say the same about you
----
			
I hit 50 3 weeks ago and do nothing but occasionally log her for a few dailies and to fiddle in my housing plot. I see what the OP mentions in my guild list...all but 3 members logged in 2-3 weeks ago. These are people I play SWTOR with and was hoping to have the same great experience playing Wildstar. 
 
I started the attunement solo and had fits trying to do the Fire guy in Wilderun with a bunch of strangers constantly there resetting him. Time till I got it done..oh about 3 hrs up on that platform. Then I went to do the Arkship part and after dodging all the silly robots in the dark, I ran to the datacron which said completed and told me to pick up my pattern when lo and behold...I couldn't and so I stood there about 15 minutes clicking the stupid thing. I finally thought, ok, maybe if I log out of the area and back in. Guess what??? The whole thing reset but it told be for 2 days that I completed and to get the patt everytime I logged in or to a different area. I wrote several tickets to Carbine and never got the matter resolved. 
 
Now, with the thought of having to do that again and trying to get pugs to finish the daunting task for attune completion has turned me off from Wildstar. SWTOR is getting housing 8/19 and although it will not be the same freestyle type that I love here, I will most likely close out this account and stay playing SWTOR only as I have vested 3 years there and am able to raid when I wish.
 
I love the questing and housing here but I cannot justify just doing dailies and leveling alts for the rest of my gaming here instead of being able to get in a raid.  I have been raiding since WOW did 40 mans waaay back, stayed for 7.5 years then moved to SWTOR for the last 3 where I raid 8 and 16 HM/NM DP/DF dungeons and I want to RAID!
 
Anyway, the OP is pretty spot on in the post here but I can't see anything changing enough to allow me to get where I want to be in this game. 	
----
			
I have no choice but to fully agree with RlyAfka and Tankanidis. They presented well-spoken and objective arguments of why the playerbase is dropping increasingly. Which affects all of us, not just Carbine.
 
{| class="blockquote"
You'd have a lot more players still playing if they had some certainty their efforts and successes would be rewarded. This is being rectified to a certain extent, but will it be too little too late? 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's just that now most guilds have to spend x hours per day attuning new members to then do the 1 raid they want to. Other issues with long winded time consuming attunements, is down the road once all the raiders are burnt out and focused on new content only, no-one will want to run anyone through the attunement anymore, and instead they will just poach players from other guilds who are already attuned. 
Same thing happened in Vanilla WoW. Top progression guilds cannibalising medium progression guilds and so forth. Made things drama filled and hateful. Medium paced guilds went no where in their progression because their best players kept getting siphoned off, leading them to an endless cycle of re-attuning new members, to have them poached too.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh and I forgot one, most people haven't encountered it yet and I am not at it either.
 
 
300 Partial Primal Patterns PER player for attunement to the 40man.
 
Needs no elaborating.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I won't comment on whether attunement should exist or not, I don't really have an opinion either way, but I will comment on guilds.
 
Maybe I misunderstood, but you make it sound like the purpose of guilds is just to raid or get ready for it, and thats not even remotely true. A healthy guild is a family and a community, a place to build new friendships and help each other along.
 
I came into this game alone. Now I'm in a large guild that's just like that, a family. We have all sorts of players at different levels, different goals, etc, but we all help each other and form a bound that means a lot more than who goes and raids first. I'm working on attunement now and will probably finish it before we have enough to do a raid but you know what? Thats ok. Becuase in the end I'd rather wait and experiance that with these people I actually care about. It'll mean tons more that way. Its an MMO, its about playing with others, the trophies are just shinies for lopps. I want that excitement of an online family cheering together at the end, its means more to me than the raiding itself. Its not the rush to the end, its how you spend the journey.
----
			
Ok just a heads up for those saying primal patterns are doing anything.
 
Most raid guilds are buying them off the CX vendor so they don't have to run things over and over.
 
When you have people selling them because they don't want to raid, and the best/fastest way of getting them is to just buy from AH, it kind of defeats the purpose of having them doesn't it?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
myself, I too have a guild with people in it I love. Not a single one of us seems interested in attunement (and I'm the only 50, even). We saw those hurdles and decided we'd have more fun roleplaying than bothering with the pve content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
myself, I too have a guild with people in it I love. Not a single one of us seems interested in attunement (and I'm the only 50, even). We saw those hurdles and decided we'd have more fun roleplaying than bothering with the pve content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
great attitude guys lets buy an MMO game and ignore the core aspect of it
 
cos you know we like to pay for stuff we dont really bother with
 
 
just because you are in denial doesn't mean we should be too
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yup, great way to look at it. The raiding isn't important to me either. I'm attuning because some in the guild would like to try it someday, so its just another way to help them. These days I spend a lot more time just hanging out RPing and enjoying being with others than worrying about some goal at some place. Life on Nexus is good when you're with the right friends.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
At least the most casual of the casuals are content?
 
The super casuals don't care.
The most capable are lonely in their dwindling raid guilds.
 
 
Every one in between those two brackets are just not logging in anymore. There's no meaningful content for them at level 50 anyway.
----
			
 
Just had to, every time i see the word.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
At least the most casual of the casuals are content?
 
The super casuals don't care.
The most capable are lonely in their dwindling raid guilds.
 
 
Every one in between those two brackets are just not logging in anymore. There's no meaningful content for them at level 50 anyway.
----
			I would upvote this again and again if I could.  I agree take out the timed runs, make the bosses hard, that's fine, players will eventually find a way to complete the dungeons.  The timed runs are a joke, and a place filler so the content isn't beaten in the first month....And yes I have all of my silvers done, just sucks people are leaving this awesome game b/c of the WALLS in place by Carbine.	
----
			Walls are fine... IF THEY CAN BE SURPASSED.  These are not walls one can jump over, however.  Requiring a hard ass boss to get something of value is a fine wall.  Forcing players to wait 5 days every week before resuming character progression for 2 days is not a fine wall.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Really, have you tried reading the OP where I clearly state that I am myself over most of these walls (can't do much about EG cap)
 
 
I made this thread because the other side of those walls is becoming increasingly lonely. I want more people to be able to play the game instead of worrying about which top server guild will fall apart next. In the last week Pergo has lost two full 20 man raiding guild rosters. These were people on the other side of the "hardcore" wall who just lost the attraction to the game. I don't think it's a player issue, but a design issue, as I've stated in the OP.
 
Walls don't make the game any more "hardcore" they just prevent people from playing the very limited lvl50 content this game has to offer.
 
 
Say the attunement portion was temporarily gone and people could raid to their heart's content. If they weren't able to 5man SSM, there are little chances they'd even make it through the trash pulls to x89, but you know what?
 
 
They'd be trying.
 
 
They'd have something to do in game other than dailies and... RP.
 
The people who are ahead can only carry new people through their attunement process so many times before they themselves get burned out.
 
 
This post has nothing to do with making content easier, just more accessible.
They are not complaints rather, they are statements. They are the echo of zone chat on my server. They are the reason why people stop logging in.
 
If it weren't for these cheap, artificial barricades which add nothing to the game, you'd have more people playing. They are simple, lazy, design mechanics to stop people. To keep them paying their sub fee for another month.
 
It backfired
 
People stop logging in instead. They don't make a glorious forum post about how they are leaving, they just stop logging in.
----
			
Is it a problem?  I've got a lot of friends and family coming into the game, with a decent chunk attuning and getting through raiding.
 
There are a couple things I wouldn't mind going away (run timers being the most glaring), but I'm very suspicious of removing the initial raid attunement.  If people are leaving due to raid attunement, they're going to plant facefirst into a raid and cry if it's removed.  Then they'll leave or Carbine will have to nerf the raid difficulty.  I can't think of anything in the attunement process that should be outright removed.
 
Of note in the OP, point by point:
 
If you can't organize a group for difficult content, you really shouldn't even be considering raiding.  That should go without saying.  I wouldn't mind saying that raid guilds need a sort of minor-league farm team where they take on people and get them through attunement, but you really should find something else to do if you can't even get four people to attune with.  It would be different if attunement gated you to the rest of the game, but it's only a gate for 20- and 40-man raids.  You cannot expect to raid if you can't even find four people to work with or at least a raiding guild.
 
Elder Gem upper limit probably isn't THAT much of a problem, considering WoW still does the same things with their Valor and Justice system and plenty of people were doing the Wrathion quests anyway.  It isn't like Wildstar has a dearth of sideline content at your house or in PVP.  Still, I wouldn't have a problem if it was a daily, rather than weekly, cap, even if it was lowered.  That way, at least people would log in every day rather than theoretically logging in once a week and having nothing else to do.
 
I'm not sure if we need Diablo 3 style post-leveling t make the game more fun.  More importantly, maybe there should be scalar difficulty for new 5 man dungeons so that there is a sort-of raid/gear progression in 5 mans.  It might be worth expounding on them, for Carbine, so that people who really shouldn't be raiding, but work well enough in 5 mans, have something to occupy themselves.  I wouldn't mind being able to earn a few elder gems beyond the cap, let's say, by running dungeons.  It does make sense that you at least have a reason to run them.  Even if you might only average between 1-5 elder gems, if you can use that to significantly cut down on the elder gem attunement portion, you probably deserve it.  It would also put a lot more people in circulation training newbies who don't mind if they don't make silver yet.
 
I've posted, several times, about a token system that integrates crafting and loot or an alterations system so that instance dropped gear isn't totally useless.  Remember that those "nerfs" to the medal system were in place just to keep people running dungeons once a gold medal was impossible.  It would help if there was a cheap alternative that let you replace chips in existing gear or if all levels of dungeons (and PVP) dropped tokens that could craft higher-level gear.  As it stands, though, level 50 vet adventures and dungeons do feel like part of attunement unless more is put into them to make them worthwhile.
 
In conclusion, the reason people wouldn't stay around revolves solely around three things:  the expectation of social interaction, the game's time investment, and the game's difficulty.  I'm not sure any of these need to be immediately changed, even to attract a larger playerbase because, let's face it, a lot of games take less effort and Wildstar doesn't want to be just another game.  I question whether any of this would really keep a lot MORE people playing, since a lot of those people who might appreciate the changes you're talking about aren't going to stick around after the release of WoD anyway (Wildstar's not going to be able to out-WoW World of Warcraft; they won't win a race to coddling the playerbase with a game that's been around for ten years in an IP that's been around for twenty).
 
I think, what you're trying to boil down here, isn't that there are too many walls, but that there's too much PVE downtime and no rewards for the things you can fill it with.  While I argue there's probably a lot more than you're letting on (there are actually a LOT of players who aren't even 50 yet because they get hung up on path/housing/challenges/et al), I'm not entirely going to discount this idea.  The endgame can be fleshed out with more fluff if it will keep the playerbase occupied, and there's no shame in making the attunement phase shorter for people who are putting in a ton of effort to do it (especially in the areas of vet dungeon/adventure grinding since it does correlate directly to raid preparation).  On that point, there are probably some simple things Carbine could do.
 
It probably wouldn't hurt to let people inch their way along instead of stopping them cold (the sole raid wall I can see being an issue being the artificial elder gem cap).  If you can grind a hundred dungeons over two days to get the elder gem phase of attunement done or to buy whatever you want from the vendor, you probably deserve to move along.  Again, I'm really not sure if it's going to keep people around.  The main reason people leave is because they came into Wildstar with an expectation that Carbine would unfurl a big red carpet to getting things done and the game just isn't that.  It requires you to get together and make friends on your server, to keep that rolodex of great players together, and it requires a significant investment of time and effort.  Most people don't appreciate that these days.  They want their PUG to walk through content, whether its raid attunement medals or experience, simply because every other game for the past five years has been doing exactly that.
 
If we're expecting Carbine to fight Blizzard for those subs, we can expect they'll go the way of every other game that tried to fight Blizzard for that gaming population.  So I'm not discounting everything here by a long shot, but I'm not sure your rationale backs up your final thesis.  I don't think more people would be playing this game for long if everything you've said were to change.
 
However, removing some of those walls, especially now that the raiding guilds are raiding and progress doesn't need to be artificially retarded by the attunement process, might not be a bad idea for the existing population because, in the end, it might make the stated purpose of attunement (raid preparation) a little more effective.  It would mean that you can progress faster by running PVE content endlessly after daily caps, and that's not a bad idea for anyone that wants to stick around but can't see a reason to log in after the elder gem cap is hit.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you can't organize a group for difficult content, you really shouldn't even be considering raiding.  That should go without saying.  I wouldn't mind saying that raid guilds need a sort of minor-league farm team where they take on people and get them through attunement, but you really should find something else to do if you can't even get four people to attune with.  It would be different if attunement gated you to the rest of the game, but it's only a gate for 20- and 40-man raids.  You cannot expect to raid if you can't even find four people to work with or at least a raiding guild.
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sigh,
right dropping the rp for a second, and trying to talk some sense here.
Have you ever tried looking at this from the other side? All these complaints are all comming from a one-sided perspective: me me me me
 
You want a change pushed through with Carbine? Then think like a company and get acting on it.
The more people you bring in, recognize the problem and voice their support for a constructed idea, the more inclined Carbine is to do it, because more paying customers are asking for it.
Right now you, and several others on these boards are a crying, whining, vocal minority compared to the entire player base playing.
Who do you think they are going to listen too? The larger, paying side, or the minor threathening side?
 
As I said many times, there are issues with the games. Stuff not working as it should, maybe some improvements needed here and there.
Do I rant about it? No. I make ticket reports and send in what's not working.
Do I try to rework the entire game because I don't like the RNG, the crafting, whatever other little point some of these threads go on about? No.
Why not? Because I play a game someone else created. They had an idea in mind, and i'm following it.
Do i voice my issues if I don't like something? Yes sure. I even send messages to the devs directly. Do I go on a bloody crusader and try to drag down everything like some of the, excuse the language, idiots on these forums? No.
 
I've been playing games....for roughly 20 years now?
Games used to be fun, challenging. Took actually skills and a brain to complete. Many people will agree with me on this.
Then the whole "casual" stuff began. I won't deny that I enjoyed WoW. I loved the game and played it for 10 years.
But when I look back at older games, I can honestly say that WoW made me a bad gamer. Things were easy in there. I got stuff with minimal effort.
And now I found a game that requires me to think about what I do, invest proper timer and commitment.
Do I loathe it sometimes? hell yes. Do I want it change or dumbed down: hell no.
----
			
I love content. I love learning new fights. I enjoy the hell out of Wildstar. I was in beta for damn near a year.
 
I will not even attempt the high-end PVE content in this game. I do my dailies and earn my EGs and when I get enough, I'm *still* going to have my "Purchase Genesis Key" quest untracked.
 
I was a rabid dungeon-runner in WoW and DCUO. Even with all my experience here, I don't feel it's worth the frustration of even trying. I'm not "hardcore" and neither are my friends. At least not "hardcore" enough to see much Endgame in Wildstar.
 
My guild still gets new people almost daily, but our roster is packed with names who haven't logged in over a month, most in the 2-3 week range. I'm going to start cleaning house this evening. So while I can't tell if we're shrinking, growing or holding steady - I *can* say that if even a fraction of those folks came back, we'd be swarming with people. Sadly, that isn't the case.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I really question your capacity to think :P  Walls have NEVER brought anyone together, they're meant to separate and you can see it at work here in WS, they're spiltting the community. Walls will not build a community, fun and rewarding challenges will. fun and rewarding content will. 
----
			
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I love content. I love learning new fights. I enjoy the hell out of Wildstar. I was in beta for damn near a year.
 
I will not even attempt the high-end PVE content in this game. I do my dailies and earn my EGs and when I get enough, I'm *still* going to have my "Purchase Genesis Key" quest untracked.
 
I was a rabid dungeon-runner in WoW and DCUO. Even with all my experience here, I don't feel it's worth the frustration of even trying. I'm not "hardcore" and neither are my friends. At least not "hardcore" enough to see much Endgame in Wildstar.
 
My guild still gets new people almost daily, but our roster is packed with names who haven't logged in over a month, most in the 2-3 week range. I'm going to start cleaning house this evening. So while I can't tell if we're shrinking, growing or holding steady - I *can* say that if even a fraction of those folks came back, we'd be swarming with people. Sadly, that isn't the case.
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I love content. I love learning new fights. I enjoy the hell out of Wildstar. I was in beta for damn near a year.
 
I will not even attempt the high-end PVE content in this game. I do my dailies and earn my EGs and when I get enough, I'm *still* going to have my "Purchase Genesis Key" quest untracked.
 
I was a rabid dungeon-runner in WoW and DCUO. Even with all my experience here, I don't feel it's worth the frustration of even trying. I'm not "hardcore" and neither are my friends. At least not "hardcore" enough to see much Endgame in Wildstar.
 
My guild still gets new people almost daily, but our roster is packed with names who haven't logged in over a month, most in the 2-3 week range. I'm going to start cleaning house this evening. So while I can't tell if we're shrinking, growing or holding steady - I *can* say that if even a fraction of those folks came back, we'd be swarming with people. Sadly, that isn't the case.
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The problem is not that its hard to organize a group, its that there is no reason to at the moment.  And like OP said: "you can only run people through attunement so many times before you burn out yourself".
 
The difference is that in WoW it took me days of heavy farming to get to the cap (4k i think it was?), and then I could buy 2-3 items at least.  In Wildstar, it takes me 2 hours of dailies and half a dozen adventure pugs, and I have to conserve points for post-50 upgrades (AMP/Ability points).  It leads one out of options way too quickly and feels unrewarding.   
 
Not at all.  Sure there are people who really dont want to have to group, but the difficulty is fine and the time investment is actually not enough, thats the catch: there is no reason to keep playing.  Triple RNG on gear means that you are better off crafting than farming, and even raid loot is inferior to crafted pieces most of the time.  One can be rerolled infinitly to get optimal slots, the other drops once in a blue moon.  
 
Thats the reason people are not staying.  There is no carrot.  
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Its even worse over here on domi side of Evindra. we have roughly the same people and the same guilds every day and while our rp community is healthy., Its small. from the looks of it Illthylian's bar is busy..but no other bar ever is.
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To be fair, Illy's bar is awesome and is the place to be and be seen.  Other bars need to step up.
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A-*cupcake*ing-men.  Carbine, PLEASE listen!  PLEASE read this thread and get the message.  Please let us know you understand!
 
This is an amazing game, but it is failing fast because of those design decisions pushing players away.  Like Afka, I am also over those walls.  You know what that means at the moment?  It means logging on for 1 hour every day to run dailies and worry that we wont have 20 ppl left by saturday for the raids.  I quit wow because I felt I had nothing to do but sit in town trolling general chat.  This game is even worst on that aspect, and it hurts, because god do I want to play it.   Sadly, at the moment, there is nothing to be played, as no one does instances anymore (since the loot nerf), and I cap my points in 2 days.
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The biggest problem is that it's very unrewarding to run instances. There are no goals to work towards, beside raiding. Right now it's raid or gtfo. After reaching 50, you can buy almost every BiS piece off the AH, which are the crafted gear. With RNG on runes and bad itemization, AP < all, there is no point doing pointless dungeons/adventures.
 
In WoW and many other games, there are clear goals to work towards. Getting badges from dungeons and buying gear or aiming a specific gear. Aiming toward those BiS gear to gear up for raid. Loot sucks so bad right now people are losing the incentive to even run vet. dungeons. I know you want this game to be "hardcore", raid or die, but the progress of getting there is 80% of the fun.	
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its like telling a guy on a wheelchair, you just have to stand up and walk - it's that simple
 
harsh comparison, but the point is carabine is helpless - they are a small design team incapable of handling an MMO as popular as this the way it should be handled.
 
its really sad - it was a roll of a dice for them.
 
the best thing they can do now is merge with some other developer team, that would see the game huge potential and help them with resources.
 
I don't know whats NCSoft's take on this, but they are clearly all struggling and the game is in stagnation as a result.
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The biggest problem is that it's very unrewarding to run instances. There are no goals to work towards, beside raiding. Right now it's raid or gtfo. After reaching 50, you can buy almost every BiS piece off the AH, which are the crafted gear. With RNG on runes and bad itemization, AP < all, there is no point doing pointless dungeons/adventures.
 
In WoW and many other games, there are clear goals to work towards. Getting badges from dungeons and buying gear or aiming a specific gear. Aiming toward those BiS gear to gear up for raid. Loot sucks so bad right now people are losing the incentive to even run vet. dungeons. I know you want this game to be "hardcore", raid or die, but the progress of getting there is 80% of the fun.
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