107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-2

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Quick question, When you go to a theater to see a 2 hour movie do you get up to use the bathroom or do you plan ahead and take a leak before the movie? If its the latter then I think you can handle an hour of sitting at the computer.
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9 pages of replies and maybe 6 people total upset with this change. Jeez, you guys really are a 1% minority...
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Ive seen players who got atuned utterly fail in GA, So no timers did nothing to adding a fail safe to baddies in raids. Im glad they are gone, because I know players who can defently do the content but cant find groups as compitent as they are to complete it.
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Ive seen players who got atuned utterly fail in GA, So no timers did nothing to adding a fail safe to baddies in raids. Im glad they are gone, because I know players who can defently do the content but cant find groups as compitent as they are to complete it.
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TT - perfect. Thank you for a response.
In the event that there is a LARGE portion of the player-base hitting a wall, while another noticeable portion (possibly smaller) ARE completing the Raid without issue - what kind of changes could we expect to see, then?
 
I realize it's hard to make that kind of call without the situation being current, and I'm sure it would be on a case-by-case basis - but any insight would be greatly appreciated.
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It also helps to keep things in perspective.  Remember that people on the forums/Twitter/etc. are a vocal minority, whether good or bad. The group of 6-10 people having fun RPing in the middle of Ilium probably don't care or aren't aware of the changes to Raids.  The people who are in love with Housing may not even know what a Genesis Key is.  People more interested in PvP are asking why PvP isn't fixed.
 
You have to remember that this game is not called RaidStar.  I would say the vast majority did not start playing with Raids on the forefront of their mind.  Sure, many did, but I would say most did not.  There are a lot of gamers who are happy doing what they're doing and are not concerned with whether or not a dungeon run is timed or not.  They put just as much money into Carbine's pocket as does the vocal raider or the vocal casual. 
 
Just because they removed timers does not signal that the sky is falling.  I think whatever makes the community a friendlier place to be is better for the game.  If this eases up any of the PuG toxicity or elitist guild mentality, then I'm all for it. 	
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Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
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It's depressing to not get a chance at all to try and learn a vet, which is very much different from a normal, when you haven't the time or people to go with. All this basis of "oh it's easy" is always centered from a prospective of having enough people to go with you to coast it or learn it.
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So in a short future that game will be like WoW but with way less content?
 
This game is now officially the property of the casuals. 
 
Everything will be nerf to the ground including quests, dungeons, attunements and raiding. When you nerf the attunement the next step is the raids and everyone who have been playing MMOs for the past years know that There is no doubt in my mind that this will be the next step.
 
Is it a good or a bad thing? I don't know. I'm a casual so i should be happy but somewhere i feel more like beeing stab in the back by Carbine because that's exactly what they promise will never happen with Wildstar. 
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Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
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Quick question, When you go to a theater to see a 2 hour movie do you get up to use the bathroom or do you plan ahead and take a leak before the movie? If its the latter then I think you can handle an hour of sitting at the computer to complete a timer.
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I completely agree with you but here is the catch, Raids (which requires you to get silver in dungeons, the only thing that requires it) also requires enough people, AKA a guild, that have a structured schedule to complete. If you can't meet the unofficial requirements to do silver dungeons then you definitely don't meet the requirements to raid.
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Is it a good or a bad thing? I don't know. I'm a casual so i should be happy but somewhere i feel more like beeing stab in the back by Carbine because that's exactly what they promise will never happen with Wildstar. 
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Preface: Sure, I'm a tryhard. I'm a hardcore fanboy. I'm an idiot. I'm a masochist. etc. etc.
 
After watching the nexus report today, I'm completely and utterly disheartened.
The one part of this game that made me love it so much was the difficulty.
 
Without a doubt, this is one of the hardest MMO's I've played to date (10 years in MMO experience).
During the nexus report, a single statement about the current state of the attunement process left me speechless...
 
 
"We are dropping the timers so that players now only have to complete Bronze medals in order to satisfy that portion of the attunement."
 
 
What does this mean for the rest of us? 
Those of us that put countless hours into bugged out Vet Dungeon bosses to acquire Silver medals.
Bragging rights?
 
 
And what does it mean for the future? 
To be honest, it's not hard to see how any Jim, John, Joe, or Jane are going to finish the attunement, now.
Bronze medals are a joke - if you can complete a dungeon, you have the capability to earn a bronze medal: all you need to do is click on shiny items.
This means that groups can spend entire nights, in 1 instance of a Vet Dungeon, completing the attunement requirement.
 
How does this prepare those who aren't yet attuned for raids?
How could making the attunement process easier possibly make those who aren't attuned MORE prepared for raid?
Now, instead of having a very small portion of skilled players who are attuned, we're going to have a massive entity of players who are attuned, and completely clueless.
What step of the attunement you were on was easily the best way for guilds to quickly weed out those who were not up to par during the recruitment process - now any Joe Schmoe can be attuned.
 
What happens when the raids are "too hard"? Do we nerf them too?
GA is difficult. Not the most difficult raid I've ever done, but it requires a serious effort, skill, effective communication, and doing your homework on the boss fights before hand.
So what happens when Joe Schmoe, who now thinks he is entitled to whatever the *cupcake* he wants out of the game, starts the QQ campaign that is "The raids are too hard! Nerf them! Nerf them!".
What do we do then, Carbine? If we're going based off of a track record, it looks like we'll be expecting a nerf to that content as well.
 
 
Of course, I realize that any MMO needs casual players in order to keep it afloat - at the end of the day, this is a business, and a business needs to make revenue/profits in order to keep itself alive.
However, there is a fine line between "Content X is too hard for me to complete" and "I am too lazy/non-committal/entitled/unskilled to complete content X".
 
There has been, and will continue to be, plenty of content for the causal players of the Wildstar universe - which, granted, a large portion of is currently bugged.
But rather than nerfing the content that your "hardcore" crowd enjoyed, why not just fix the content that is currently bugged for the casual members?
Or, simply create a whole new branch of content altogether for the casual crowd, and leave the raids/attunements/etc. completely alone?
 
TL;DR And so it begins - the dumbing down of content to cater to the casual player.
 
 
Edit: Guys, there is one simple question that I have as a direct result of this change. This is my largest concern with this attunement change -
 
If all people have to do is complain that something is too hard to see it nerfed - what's going to happen to the raid content when those players, who couldn't finish attunement until this nerf, hit the wall in GA? Will content be nerfed then?
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It also helps to keep things in perspective.  Remember that people on the forums/Twitter/etc. are a vocal minority, whether good or bad. The group of 6-10 people having fun RPing in the middle of Ilium probably don't care or aren't aware of the changes to Raids.  The people who are in love with Housing may not even know what a Genesis Key is.  People more interested in PvP are asking why PvP isn't fixed.
 
You have to remember that this game is not called RaidStar.  I would say the vast majority did not start playing with Raids on the forefront of their mind.  Sure, many did, but I would say most did not.  There are a lot of gamers who are happy doing what they're doing and are not concerned with whether or not a dungeon run is timed or not.  They put just as much money into Carbine's pocket as does the vocal raider or the vocal casual. 
 
Just because they removed timers does not signal that the sky is falling.  I think whatever makes the community a friendlier place to be is better for the game.  If this eases up any of the PuG toxicity or elitist guild mentality, then I'm all for it. 
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But guilds are already established and expect this to already be done. It is creating a chicken before the egg type scenario.
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So much wrong with this.
 
You actually are expected to beat the timer on the first or second try because as I've said in previous posts, not everyone is sitting kosher in a helpful guild or even in a guild. They're in a PUG for one reason or another (couldn't find enough guild members online that wanted to go, or even online, not enough friends online, limited time frame and their guild was already doing something else, whatever have you it was). Medal systems with the Loot Rating caused people to bail at the first sign of no Gold medal. Then they changed things so that it was a bail out if Silver wasn't going to be reached making the remaining 4 or less unable to complete if someone else zoned into the PUG and realized the same thing only to bail on them as well. Where's the chance of Bronze then? Most vote to disband and deal with the aftermath of failure that wasn't entirely their fault to begin with. It was the player who didn't even want to give them a chance to learn the fight or even try to be helpful other than yelling at them about what a failure they were because they made a mistake. Or several. Either way, it goes back to the harsh abuse people dole out on others because they're treating them like a means to an end, their end being finishing their attunement and moving onto raiding.
 
It's demoralizing to be in that situation.
 
It's depressing to not get a chance at all to try and learn a vet, which is very much different from a normal, when you haven't the time or people to go with. All this basis of "oh it's easy" is always centered from a prospective of having enough people to go with you to coast it or learn it.
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I'm gonna have to laugh at the hypocrisy of this post and the people agreeing with it.. Why don't you mention your not happy with the 40 man attunement nerf also..oh wait maybe your excited to only need 100 patterns now instead of 300 what about the top world guilds that spent big cash and hard effort to aquire them...shouldn't they be here QQ'ng as well? word of wisdom "don't eat the yard mints their not breath fresheners."
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Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
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I'm gonna have to laugh at the hypocrisy of this post and the people agreeing with it.. Why don't you mention your not happy with the 40 man attunement nerf also..oh wait maybe your excited to only need 100 patterns now instead of 300 what about the top world guilds that spent big cash and hard effort to aquire them...shouldn't they be here QQ'ng as well? word of wisdom "don't eat the yard mints their not breath fresheners."
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I'm gonna have to laugh at the hypocrisy of this post and the people agreeing with it.. Why don't you mention your not happy with the 40 man attunement nerf also..oh wait maybe your excited to only need 100 patterns now instead of 300 what about the top world guilds that spent big cash and hard effort to aquire them...shouldn't they be here QQ'ng as well? word of wisdom "don't eat the yard mints their not breath fresheners."
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No. No, no. No. Everyone not being in a guild? That's a player problem, not a game problem. It has now become MY problem.
 
Carbine seemed to have envisioned this game for players that love MMOs, meaning they like playing with other players. But what is happening here is that they are being asked (and are subsequently obliging to) allowing players to play it as a single player game... now, even further into the attunement process. So what do you think is going to happen when these single players get to a raid? Players who have little tangible experience playing with others, let alone in an organized and hardcore skills fashion?
 
This is not a game to be played like other MMOs... you NEED a team here to progress, and the more Carbine caters to allowing players to play solo as much as possible, it's only going to be detrimental to the content design in the long run.
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But they need a Guild to get into Raids...there is no LFR, so let people find their own way.
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I already have 300 partial primal patterns... so I'm indifferent....
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I wish this change happened back in early or mid July, then maybe a whole bunch of people who left would have stayed. Getting silver in a dungeon isn't that hard, just unforgiving when players make a mistake or you have new people. This leads to a lot of frustration and "rage-quits" when trying to get silver for attunement. Once you get the dungeon down and learned, they all can easily be completed well under the time limit with proper execution and good dps.
 
I personally am glad for this change and not sure why there is all this rage. It seems like it's all coming from a place of fear. Fear that content will be dumbed down and made too easy. The bigger fear however is what happens if nothing is done and more and more people leave? Would you rather more and more people leave, fewer new people come in, and the game dies or goes to a f2p model? If that happens then who knows what that will do for the frequency of new content and the difficulty of said content.
 
Carbine has reason for doing this change. Otherwise they wouldn't be messing with it. I hope it works and gets more people into the game. And before people start preaching about a nerfocalypse, there is no crystal ball to see into the future and no factual evidence that carbine will nerf raids because of an outcry that may or may not happen from players who have yet to raid.	
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That's not how you do it.
 
You're supposed to be raging that if you had to do it, everyone else should to. Geezz.
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No. No, no. No. Everyone not being in a guild? That's a player problem, not a game problem. It has now become MY problem.
 
Carbine seemed to have envisioned this game for players that love MMOs, meaning they like playing with other players. But what is happening here is that they are being asked (and are subsequently obliging to) allowing players to play it as a single player game... now, even further into the attunement process. So what do you think is going to happen when these single players get to a raid? Players who have little tangible experience playing with others, let alone in an organized and hardcore skills fashion?
 
This is not a game to be played like other MMOs... you NEED a team here to progress, and the more Carbine caters to allowing players to play solo as much as possible, it's only going to be detrimental to the content design in the long run.
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This is exactly the point and the problem.
 
If they could;'t be bothered during the *entire* leveling process to find a guild, and then, random queued through attument (which this change assures is possible) why do you think they have the wherewithal to actually THEN find a guild when they are ready for raiding? They're going to expect puggable raids. It's just historical fact.
 
This kind of change literally sets the game on a road where it will emerge a completely different game, and I'm not willing to ride along with it if that's the case.
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I love the people who are saying that "timers have nothing to do with raids". Oh, you are so, so very wrong. If you can't handle the silver dungeons, you will never handle anything past 2nd boss in GA. You can't carry people through Kuralak.
 
Well, raid nerfs are coming next. We all know they will come, now it's just going to happen sooner.	
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This is exactly the point and the problem.
 
If they could;'t be bothered during the *entire* leveling process to find a guild, and then, random queued through attument (which this change assures is possible) why do you think they have the wherewithal to actually THEN find a guild when they are ready for raiding? They're going to expect puggable raids. It's just historical fact.
 
This kind of change literally sets the game on a road where it will emerge a completely different game, and I'm not willing to ride along with it if that's the case.
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I love the people who are saying that "timers have nothing to do with raids". Oh, you are so, so very wrong. If you can't handle the silver dungeons, you will never handle anything past 2nd boss in GA. You can't carry people through Kuralak.
 
Well, raid nerfs are coming next. We all know they will come, now it's just going to happen sooner.
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			The hardcore tears are delicious. ;)	
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The hardcore tears are delicious. ;)
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The biggest difference between silver and bronze is that silver requires you to execute the entire dungeon from start to finish with a minimal number of errors.  I don't care if you can muddle your way through SSM in 5 hours... that means you've wiped to every encounter 5 times and have no business setting foot in GA.
 
Am I against some sort of a change, no necessarily.  But this is a terrible idea and will be the first indication that the game is pandering to the casuals to make a buck.	
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I'm a bit disappointed that the silver attunement requirement is going away but I'm proud of myself for learning all the fights well enough to get silver and to be an asset to the group (warrior interrupter here always taking the first and third interrupts when possible...).
 
That said, I'm getting a bit tired of running my guild mates through dungeons and teaching the same fights over and over and over again.  Maybe selfish, but that is how I feel.
 
I think this change will make life more enjoyable for me and I can help out once in awhile but not spend every night doing it.
 
Also, I'd rather live with this change and keep subscribers than to not have the change and continue to lose population (I'm on Widow so not as bad as some, but I'm making all my alts on Pergo...).
 
I really enjoy playing Wildstar and think the game has a lot of potential.  I'm going to subscribe for at least a year and then reevaluate based on what is going on in the game at that time.	
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Or what will you do?
 
CRB took a bit of time deciding how to address the concerns of players and simply going, "Nope. You aren't good enough." wasn't going to happen.
 
CRB said the game would be hardcore not elitist.
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If you're looking for a reason why people care so much about an attunement process that they got past a long time ago and the skill level of raiders that they will never group with, you may want to start with the question "how much money were they making off of carries through those silver dungeons?"
 
I'm not surprised at all that there are some people who are EXTREMELY angry about this change. They can measure it in terms of lost cash.	
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No. No, no. No. Everyone not being in a guild? That's a player problem, not a game problem. It has now become MY problem.
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The hardcore tears are delicious. ;)
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			If they were smart they would get rid of the attunement altogether. Speaking as a casual, I know alot of ppl who have left simply because of attunements. MMOs have change alot over the years and some ppl (majority of mmo players) simply dont have the time we use to have when we were all younger with no jobs and no life. Players want to jump straight into content nowadays hence why WoW is still so popular. Theyve learned this and since have been done away with attunements. Love the game but the old style way of MMOs simply want succeed in todays market. How much more of the game is going to die before Carbine realizes this? This change is a small small small step in the right direction but I'd bet my last 2 cents it wont change a damn thing. Don't believe me? Come back in 2 months or whenever these changes take place and see nothing has changed population wise. 	
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Ask your self a serious question, this is to all that are hating on the nerf, why are they doing this very very simple reason, To Keep Players!. You may like seeing the silver timer as a a "right of Passage" but the bottom line is while a small number of people are happy doing it because they have already done it the rest of the community was not. Now if they had nerfed content where it was easier to get silver by nerfing bosses then yes I would be with you complaining. Vets are still hard as hell, they will still take time, it just makes it easier for people who don't want to spend so many hours hoping to beat a dumb timer just so they can raid. Raiding is for everyone not a select few so if they just play to the select few who are happy with timers then you know what happens the player bases walk away because who wants spend hours on a dungeon. Anyone that has done a Raid knows beating your head against a wall is what you expect, but not on dungeons just so you can get into raid. Bottom line is the community spoke and the Dev's listened in a way that while allow more people to get to raid while still keeping the hardness that the OP said he liked about wildstar.
 
I would give you more of the benefit of the doubt if they nerfed dungeons as a whole but not when all they have done has changed how attunment is done 	
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Now now, we're supposed to be nice and have a constructive thread here.
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People are comparing apples to oranges to bananas with all this timer and raid difficulty nonsense. At best timers in dungeons show good dps, proper execution of mechanics,skill at avoiding the bad stuff, and utilizing interrupts for moments of opportunity, which also correlate to dps.
 
If there were timers in raids similar to dungeons then yes you can have more direct correlations. If for example you had x minutes from entrance to kill first boss in order for loot, and upon that kill a new timer started to get to next boss, so on and so forth. Then yea you could argue for the hardcoreness of the timers. But that's not how it is. Instead you have enrage timer mechanics, which is nothing new in an mmo, and in fact you can experience the same type of enrage timers on some dungeon bosses.	
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I would like to respond, but I have no earthly idea what you actually said.
Other than an unnecessary insult?
 
DA LADIES LUV MAI BUTT, K?
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Sorry, I was under the impression that knowing how to play your class,how to not stand in red, and what abilities a boss did were basic logical things needed to get silver, neither hardcore or elitist.
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People are comparing apples to oranges to bananas with all this timer and raid difficulty nonsense. At best timers in dungeons show good dps, proper execution of mechanics,skill at avoiding the bad stuff, and utilizing interrupts for moments of opportunity, which also correlate to dps.
 
If there were timers in raids similar to dungeons then yes you can have more direct correlations. If for example you had x minutes from entrance to kill first boss in order for loot, and upon that kill a new timer started to get to next boss, so on and so forth. Then yea you could argue for the hardcoreness of the timers. But that's not how it is. Instead you have enrage timer mechanics, which is nothing new in an mmo, and in fact you can experience the same type of enrage timers on some dungeon bosses.
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I think it was mostly who pays for the game, casuals with subs or hardcore raiders with subs? 
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That's not true at all. 
The GA fights are 100% on timers - they're called "Enrage".
 
X-89's timer: Kill the boss before all the platforms are gone, or you wipe.
Kuralak's Timer: Kill the boss before her 5th rotation through the egg phases, or you wipe.
Phage Maw's Timer: Kill him before he goes up into the air a 3rd time, or wipe.
Prototypes' Timer: 11 minutes before the bosses beat the living shit out of you and you wipe.
 
...need I continue?
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The biggest difference between silver and bronze is that silver requires you to execute the entire dungeon from start to finish with a minimal number of errors.  I don't care if you can muddle your way through SSM in 5 hours... that means you've wiped to every encounter 5 times and have no business setting foot in GA.
 
Am I against some sort of a change, no necessarily.  But this is a terrible idea and will be the first indication that the game is pandering to the casuals to make a buck.
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			To be honest if you aren't happy with someones performance in a raid scenario just feel free to do whatever with them teach/kick/yell/rage I don't care. This change doesn't mean you have to play with people who you feel to be not worthy of your time. The only thing this might change is that you get a larger pool of players to choose from.	
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I think that's a figure that no one could honestly speak to with any accuracy.
Sure, I think in a vast majority of MMO's it's the casual players funding the development, for the most part.
I wouldn't be too sure in Wildstar, though.
Why do you think the attunement process, GA, and Datascape are in as good shape as they're in currently?
 
Because of "Try-hard elitist fan boys" that dedicated time to closed beta attempting this content and reporting bugs.
I think that's worth quite a bit of recognition as well - but it's outside the scope of this thread's intent.
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I don't care.
 
Honestly it was a bit annoying to see certain people think that just because they finally got attuned (after a hard and long struggle) that they were entitled to raid loot. When they found out that raid bosses were harder still than dungeons, they'd quit, whine, come up with excuses. I'd love to see their reaction to Datascape.
 
Good riddance, Towelliee and crew, and all those other streamers who were trying to get attuned for weeks running dungeons 8+ hours a day only to leave because it didn't mean they beat the game.	
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Yeah but if you take 4 hours to kill X-89 you still killed him and still get the loot. If you take 4 hours to complete stormtalon's lair you can't even enter GA.
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If all people have to do is complain that something is too hard to see it nerfed - what's going to happen to the raid content when those players, who couldn't finish attunement until this nerf, hit the wall in GA? Will content be nerfed then?
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Let me ask you this. In a Raid, as you approach a boss, and someone says 'brb - bathroom', what happens. Well, the Raid leader prob says - Ok 5 min break. Then you continue to take the boss down.
 
What happens in a Dungeon if someone says 'brb - bathroom', on a silver run? Much raging and quitting and cursing and ignoring.
 
How does rush, rush, rush get you ready for Raids?
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This point has been brought up about 20 times in this thread now, and the Angry People seem to be ignoring it. If there was a sensible response to it, I must've missed it. So, anybody who's upset about this change wish to comment? Enrage timers are not Dungeon timers, ergo dungeon timers don't test raid readiness. Discuss, plz.
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Right, but if you take 4-hours to complete STL, no one is going to want you in their raid. 
Hence the reason that the attunement was gating some very unskilled players from reaching end-game content.
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Right, but if you take 4-hours to complete STL, no one is going to want you in their raid. 
Hence the reason that the attunement was gating some very unskilled players from reaching end-game content.
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I don't care.
 
Honestly it was a bit annoying to see certain people think that just because they finally got attuned (after a hard and long struggle) that they were entitled to raid loot. When they found out that raid bosses were harder still than dungeons, they'd quit, whine, come up with excuses. I'd love to see their reaction to Datascape.
 
Good riddance, Towelliee and crew, and all those other streamers who were trying to get attuned for weeks running dungeons 8+ hours a day only to leave because it didn't mean they beat the game.
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Right, but if you take 4-hours to complete STL, no one is going to want you in their raid. 
Hence the reason that the attunement was gating some very unskilled players from reaching end-game content.
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That's just simply not true. Many guilds sit down and discuss strategies and what went wrong between attempts - because there is no timer tied to your loot/success. If a group of 5 players goes through STL wiping only once to each boss due to reflection of what went wrong and trying to correct errors but took twice as long as the timer allowed I would welcome them into my raid team in a heartbeat.
 
Timers prove very little when it comes to players skill, adaptability, or knowledge of the game.
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That's a good point, definitely valid. But my problem is the fact that attunements have always been that kind of "Right of passage", you know?
You spent time, effort, long hours, studying, etc. to get that attunement done. But with it nerfed, it doesn't mean anything.
 
And yes, guilds will still hit the brick wall of GA's trash with a loud "THUD!" - but what happens when the QQ starts up about how hard GA is?
They QQ'd about the attunement being hard -> attunement was nerfed.
I think it's logical to follow the same pattern later on down the road.
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Oh yes and we can't have that, honestly your in a guild right? Your guild will be doing the raiding right so these "Unskilled players" that will now be in the raids will more then likely not even cross paths with your guild or raid group. So why are you complaining this does not effect you or yours, let people play the game.
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{| class="blockquote"
Also a couple pages back I said "Do you use the bathroom before a 2 hour movie or get up in the middle of it?" take a leak before you do a dungeon not that hard.
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{| class="blockquote"
Carbine are not just reacting to complaints, they are reacting to valid criticism, there own data metrics and a shrinking player base.
 
I think you are overreacting to something that is a good change, the difficulty of the fights was not changed. Timers didn't add difficulty, they just added to exploits and fostered a toxic attitude in the community.
 
now you can get up and answer the door, phone, child, call of nature without making the dungeon run a waste of time for everyone involved.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sorry, I was under the impression that knowing how to play your class,how to not stand in red, and what abilities a boss did were basic logical things needed to get silver, neither hardcore or elitist.
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{| class="blockquote"
That's completely and totally true.
If the best attempt you can get done in an STL vet run is 4 hours long, not only is no one going to need that player in their raid, you simply shouldn't be there in the first place.
The raids are IMMENSELY harder than the Vet Dungeon content...
 
If you're on a 4-hour STL "best clear", you quite simply won't even make it through the trash.
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{| class="blockquote"
Do I need to make this point again? I've made it 4 or 5 times already....
 
 
And you have how much experience in raid, Seph? (honestly curious, not attempting to troll or incite anger)
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{| class="blockquote"
Please.
 
I pulled 4 hours out of the air and threw it in a post which was obviously meant to be exaggerated to extend my point. The logistics of a 4 hour dungeon clear don't even make sense in practice.
 
Stick to addressing my main point please - rather than focusing on a strawman argument.
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{| class="blockquote"
The issue here is why are you having an issue about people that are note even in your guild? How does this affect you? Just don't accept people that you don't gauge their skill and that's it. If you tell em that you are affected every day because someone in the other side of the world does something you don't like, example buying tacos, then ok; I understand is in you being affected by things that don't directly affect you but if not then why are you being affected by this change? People are not going to Baelix saying oh look i am attune now YOU have to accept me...No you just say ok lets run a dungeon and see how good you are and if he/she is not good, then awesome you decline, if he/she is good then you welcome he/she to the guild and that's it.
 
Before the game did the job of screening people that were good/bad, now you as the GM have to...Which is a the whole purpose of being a GM isn't?
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Before the game did the job of screening people that were good/bad, now you as the GM have to...Which is a the whole purpose of being a GM isn't?
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{| class="blockquote"
Well, if I have to pee after the movie starts, usually I get up at that point of the movie. Because, you know, I have to pee. And it's just a movie.
 
Replace the word "movie" with the words "video game" and you'll have my response as it applies to video games.
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{| class="blockquote"
Okay, I guess I do have to make my point yet again:
 
That's something that affects me 100% directly - the nerfing of content across the board causes direct impact on the experiences of myself, my guild, etc.
So, your metaphor about "tacos" breaks down at that point - if someone all the way on the other side of the world eats a taco, doesn't like it, and causes taco's all over the world to have to be changed to a manner that suits them - yes, I have a problem with that, and I will make it known.
 
Once again Seph - current raid experience?
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{| class="blockquote"
And you better be sure your child doesn't need anything either.  "GO MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN SNACK!  WE'RE ABOUT TO PULL!  WHERE IS YOUR MOTHER?  CHRIST!!!!"
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			Not sure why people are still arguing for/against silver dungeon requirement, it is settled that it is changing, the feedback has been heard, the dead horse was soundly beaten on both sides.  Just seems pointless at this point.	
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Op...question...
 
Would you want more people subbing your game thus providing more revenue for future content or less?
 
Let's get to the point: current system is discouraging people to the point they are quiting in large amounts.
 
Hopefully these possible changes come soon or else it's going to be way to late.	
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Once again Seph - current raid experience?
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{| class="blockquote"
That's completely and totally true.
If the best attempt you can get done in an STL vet run is 4 hours long, not only is no one going to need that player in their raid, you simply shouldn't be there in the first place.
The raids are IMMENSELY harder than the Vet Dungeon content...
 
If you're on a 4-hour STL "best clear", you quite simply won't even make it through the trash.
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{| class="blockquote"
Op...question...
 
Would you want more people subbing your game thus providing more revenue for future content or less?
 
Let's get to the point: current system is discouraging people to the point they are quiting in large amounts.
 
Hopefully these possible changes come soon or else it's going to be way to late.
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{| class="blockquote"
I see your point of view on this Baelix. Your so much concerned about them nerfing attunment more concerned  about that this being a slippery slope to them actually going after content next. But I give you this counter point not everyone who has come into this game is a brand new MMO player, yes there are a fair number, but there is just as much if not more that have come from other games for years on end. Those that have experience want to raid, but don't want to be stuck at a wall in a dungeon when we would rather be stuck on a wall in a raid. Yes I will grant you the raids will more then likely be harder, but that is expected. We must take it for what it is, this is them trying to avoid doing what you are fearing of going after content, cause bottom line is they want to keep players. So at some point if there is valid outcry they may nerf things, Every other MMO out there has done that when needed its how you keep the money rolling in to keep the lights on.
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{| class="blockquote"
Vet Dungeons are more unforgiving with the Silver requirement than raids are - that's your main point, correct?
Want to establish a baseline before I respond.
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{| class="blockquote"
And you better be sure your child doesn't need anything either.  "GO MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN SNACK!  WE'RE ABOUT TO PULL!  WHERE IS YOUR MOTHER?!  CHRIST!!!!"
 
Edit:  Sad thing is, in a former guild that I was in in this game, I heard a father in TS with that sort of tone.  I was like. . .log off and take care of your kid, dude. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Correct, and I actually agreed with that very point a few pages back - if this is what it takes to get players back here to enjoy this outstanding game, then so be it.
My concern was with the difficulty of the raiding content, and a hope that they would not touch it at all - despite the loudest QQ from the forums.
 
 
Edit: found the post where I agreed with your point: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement/page-9&do=findComment&comment=1114673
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{| class="blockquote"
Op...question...
 
Would you want more people subbing your game thus providing more revenue for future content or less?
 
Let's get to the point: current system is discouraging people to the point they are quiting in large amounts.
 
Hopefully these possible changes come soon or else it's going to be way to late.
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{| class="blockquote"
Be prepared for the population of gendiscussion to shift.  The people complaining about timers will reduce, new people will arrive to complain.
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{| class="blockquote"
Correct, and I actually agreed with that very point a few pages back - if this is what it takes to get players back here to enjoy this outstanding game, then so be it.
My concern was with the difficulty of the raiding content, and a hope that they would not touch it at all - despite the loudest QQ from the forums.
 
 
Edit: found the post where I agreed with your point: https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement/page-9&do=findComment&comment=1114673
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			/applause maybe they do not want this game to die after all finally seems like they've come to terms with server populations go look 1 is medium when the all used to be full or high pop this is a good change people to play with teaqch and gear is better then dead servers.	
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{| class="blockquote"
That's not true at all. 
The GA fights are 100% on timers - they're called "Enrage".
 
X-89's timer: Kill the boss before all the platforms are gone, or you wipe.
Kuralak's Timer: Kill the boss before her 5th rotation through the egg phases, or you wipe.
Phage Maw's Timer: Kill him before he goes up into the air a 3rd time, or wipe.
Prototypes' Timer: 11 minutes before the bosses beat the living shit out of you and you wipe.
 
...need I continue?
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{| class="blockquote"
There is very smart logic in Carbine's desire to ease players into the difficulty curve in the game. Not everyone is as simple minded as you make them out to be. Players who follow the path from Normal adventures -> normal dungeons -> veteran adventures -> veteran dungeons can see this progression. We don't need you or carbine to protect us from the horrors of GA. We're smart enough to understand what's in store for us in GA - but again - why does it hurt you in any way to know that people who can't clear dungeons zoned into GA and died on the first trash pack?
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Make achievements for completition time, you want a spot in my raid? link your achievement.
 
Hardcore tears, best tears.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Dungeon wide timer is lame and results in lame parkour let's avoid most of the dungeon behaviour.
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			simple fact is "casuals" are what keeps an mmo alive, if you eliminate "casuals" from the endgame then your game declines in profit and playerbase.. A game is suppose to be fun not a chore and right now the attunment process for the majority is a chore. it also discourages alts and guilds from taking in new members.. to the "hardcore" you are the minority its the truth a game will not survive catering to you ( there are too many mmo on the market for this to work), the days of 40man raiding and vanilla wow are dead and gone.. time to move on.	
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{| class="blockquote"
The dungeon timers were more about skipping everything you could not enrage timers on bosses.
Some of the bosses in dungeons have enrage timers too.
 
Enrage timers, awesome.
Dungeon wide timer is lame and results in lame parkour let's avoid most of the dungeon behaviour.
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{| class="blockquote"
It hurts no one directly.
 
Indirectly this is just a temporary band-aid at best.  Instead of people quitting and guilds collapsing over timed runs, it'll be GA.  The lack of fun and enticing things to do for people simply not skilled enough for the more difficult content is the real culprit.
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			Yea my english sucks, to bad. Do not forget to add LFR in this game, when people complaint they do not have acess to easy gear, it might help them!	
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{| class="blockquote"
This isn't really true. The only dungeon where I've skipped a large chunk of trash is SSM.. and it's not like you have to do crazy stuff to avoid it. It's pretty straight forward.
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{| class="blockquote"
We're not talking about the lack of things to do for people outside of raiding. We're talking about the tedium of attunement that I'm doing for a second time (re-rolling) and feeling some hardcore burnout nipping at my heels.
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{| class="blockquote"
Except some people seem to be under the impression that removing timers from attunement is somehow going to save the game's population.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Except some people seem to be under the impression that removing timers from attunement is somehow going to save the game's population.
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{| class="blockquote"
How is it not true because you didn't do it?
 
STL's corridor is still largely skippable.
 
KV/SKC/SSM all have packs that are spread out and randomized. It is encouraged to hunt down the ones you need and avoid the rest.
----
			
The amount of people trying to label the MMO player base as "Hardcore" or "Casual" is a complete joke.
 
The world isn't so simple as black and white.
 
Cry on "hardcore" players.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Not it does not, they will be weed out later rather than sooner
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{| class="blockquote"
It hurts no one directly.
 
Indirectly this is just a temporary band-aid at best.  Instead of people quitting and guilds collapsing over timed runs, it'll be GA.  The lack of fun and enticing things to do for people simply not skilled enough for the more difficult content is the real culprit.
 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
I want them weeded out sooner -- NOT later. Then I have to deal with them.
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{| class="blockquote"
Removing timers from the equation lets us pug bronze runs on our time, at our own pace, without requiring 4 other guild members doing it for the 200th time on their already attuned mains.
 
 
Attunement discourages alts, hinders recruiting, and proves absolutely nothing about player skill (ignoring every other argument you can buy silver runs). They need to go all together - so anything they do to reduce the tedium is a welcome change in my book.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm in agreement.  I'm not debating an attunement process here.  I'm simply saying that it's not going to fix the core problem with the game, or the reason why people have left in droves.  It's only going to keep people from quitting just a little longer unless they can implement fun and enticing things to do for more casual, and less skilled players.
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The timers in dungeons have always been directly tied to the loot reward system.
 
There are timers in Genetic Archives that are directly tied to the loot reward system.
 
The timers are actually present in the same way in dungeons as they are in raids.
 
Will Carbine nerf content in raids when the people who are unable to achieve silvers in the current system attempt GA? I sure hope not.
 
The understanding as raiders we have from experience in GA will quickly become the same experience other players will have, in that they will need to improve or go somewhere else.
 
It's fine to let them into GA by just getting bronze if that's the attunement step. I'm more personally annoyed that the players coming up will have to do less work to get the same crafting rewards in the future (the drop leaks about new items/recipes/materials) as the accomplishment of completing the attunement has been diluted to meaninglessness.
 
As a guild leader who maintains a 40 man raid roster, it became apparent weeks ago that the attunement step was a poor way to judge if someone was capable of raiding. People can be forcefully dragged through silver dungeons despite their refusal to stay alive on any encounter. This cannot happen in the raid, and we send people back to the bench until they are capable to perform in a raid all the time. If you have a 10% up time on boss fights, guess what, you need to run dungeons until you can silver them without being carried.
 
The measure is still there. Our recruitment has changed to reflect this. We take applicants and run dungeons with them to assess their abilities as a player, and then make a decision on when they will be capable of helping the raid team, and what they need to do to be a functioning member of the raid team. When we aren't raiding, we're teaching and training the guild members so they can have a good raid experience, as we've found it is much faster to train someone how to play the game at a higher level than it is to wait in Thayd spamming until we find a player who knows how to interrupt already.
 
For all the people who take some sort of pride in killing every living thing in an encounter, tell me how that rhino goes for you. I can't wait to taste your delicious tears when your game perspective shatters on the horns of those beasts.
 
The future posts will become very entertaining as now there are no excuses about RL problems, DC's ruining loot chances, or anxiety related issues to a countdown clock to blame for your shortcomings as a player. It's all on you, and you asked for it.
 
Good luck with GA, can't wait to hear your feedback.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You assume much. There are many reasons people have struggled and continue to struggle to find the right guild. It is illogical to assign a presumed future behavior to them based on one subset of the unguilded.
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{| class="blockquote"
The timers in dungeons have always been directly tied to the loot reward system.
 
There are timers in Genetic Archives that are directly tied to the loot reward system.
 
The timers are actually present in the same way in dungeons as they are in raids.
 
Will Carbine nerf content in raids when the people who are unable to achieve silvers in the current system attempt GA? I sure hope not.
 
The understanding as raiders we have from experience in GA will quickly become the same experience other players will have, in that they will need to improve or go somewhere else.
 
It's fine to let them into GA by just getting bronze if that's the attunement step. I'm more personally annoyed that the players coming up will have to do less work to get the same crafting rewards in the future (the drop leaks about new items/recipes/materials) as the accomplishment of completing the attunement has been diluted to meaninglessness.
 
As a guild leader who maintains a 40 man raid roster, it became apparent weeks ago that the attunement step was a poor way to judge if someone was capable of raiding. People can be forcefully dragged through silver dungeons despite their refusal to stay alive on any encounter. This cannot happen in the raid, and we send people back to the bench until they are capable to perform in a raid all the time. If you have a 10% up time on boss fights, guess what, you need to run dungeons until you can silver them without being carried.
 
The measure is still there. Our recruitment has changed to reflect this. We take applicants and run dungeons with them to assess their abilities as a player, and then make a decision on when they will be capable of helping the raid team, and what they need to do to be a functioning member of the raid team. When we aren't raiding, we're teaching and training the guild members so they can have a good raid experience, as we've found it is much faster to train someone how to play the game at a higher level than it is to wait in Thayd spamming until we find a player who knows how to interrupt already.
 
For all the people who take some sort of pride in killing every living thing in an encounter, tell me how that rhino goes for you. I can't wait to taste your delicious tears when your game perspective shatters on the horns of those beasts.
 
The future posts will become very entertaining as now there are no excuses about RL problems, DC's ruining loot chances, or anxiety related issues to a countdown clock to blame for your shortcomings as a player. It's all on you, and you asked for it.
 
Good luck with GA, can't wait to hear your feedback.
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{| class="blockquote"
As a guild leader who maintains a 40 man raid roster, it became apparent weeks ago that the attunement step was a poor way to judge if someone was capable of raiding. People can be forcefully dragged through silver dungeons despite their refusal to stay alive on any encounter. This cannot happen in the raid, and we send people back to the bench until they are capable to perform in a raid all the time. If you have a 10% up time on boss fights, guess what, you need to run dungeons until you can silver them without being carried.
 
The measure is still there. Our recruitment has changed to reflect this. We take applicants and run dungeons with them to assess their abilities as a player, and then make a decision on when they will be capable of helping the raid team, and what they need to do to be a functioning member of the raid team. When we aren't raiding, we're teaching and training the guild members so they can have a good raid experience, as we've found it is much faster to train someone how to play the game at a higher level than it is to wait in Thayd spamming until we find a player who knows how to interrupt already.
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{| class="blockquote"
This is an important point. I have no problem at all with the complaint that something is too difficult. I may disagree (and invariably do), but no two people play at the same skill level, so it's an argument that will pretty much never be settled. I accept that, and to a point embrace it.
 
I do, on the other hand, have every problem with someone who has chosen to play a self-proclaimed multiplayer game (it's the second M in MMORPG, for those not keeping track) alone complaining that they are not able to progress as a solo/PUG-only player. It's antithetical and belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the genre, and acting upon it weakens the foundation for everyone else.
----
			
I am disappointed by the change in the attunement process.
 
Yes there is a wall that players are hitting.  I like that wall.  It should be there.  It can be your friend.  The wall can make self-aware, dedicated players say, "I'm not doing the best I can.  How can I improve myself and my play style?"  Every player, every class, every group composition can overcome that wall: it just takes time, dedication, and research.  I am one of the leaders of a guild (Cascade@Avatus) and I have seen nearly 40 people achieve what, at times, they thought they couldn't and the joy that comes from it.  Struggling as a guild brought us closer together as a group.  Heck, some have even done it twice!
 
Before anyone says anything: no, I'm not already done with silver dungeons, and I don't want SSM handed to me on a "silver" platter (get it?  har har).  I've worked hard to learn that instance, and I've felt myself grow as a player because of it.  I can tell I'm finally getting really good at it, and I'm sure I'll get silver tonight during our progression times.  Sometimes it was hard and I wanted to give up, but I didn't and I'm a better player for it.
 
I won't go over what people have already said, so I'll just say I agree that silver dungeons are not unreasonable expectations for people who want to raid.  Communication, tactics, understanding of mechanics, skilled playing, camaraderie... all of these things are enhanced when people are pushed to be better.  Silver dungeons are the training, the breeding grounds for players to flourish if they choose to.
 
I know Carbine is listening and I appreciate it.  I just worry that the people who speak the most and the loudest are the ones who are dissatisfied, while the people who are happy with the way things are have no reason to say anything.  Significantly more often than not, that's the initiator of vocalization: when was the last time you called a customer service center just to say, "Don't change a thing, I love exactly what you're doing."  And when was the last time you called because there was a problem?  Anyone that's worked in a call center or known someone who has knows exactly what the ratio is between those two kinds of calls.
 
I appreciate that people might be getting frustrated, might think that they can't get silvers, might see the difficulty of attunement as an unnecessary chore.  But it isn't.  It is a journey, and often the journey is more important than the destination.
 
The difficulty of the game is what brought me and many other players to WildStar.  Please don't change the attunement process.  Thank you for reading.	
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{| class="blockquote"
It's not true that you NEED to do it to get silver.
 
If you want to skip stuff, cool. It's not necessary however. Though why people would want to go out of their way to kill -more- trash packs, I dunno.
 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Ask your self a serious question, this is to all that are hating on the nerf, why are they doing this very very simple reason, To Keep Players!.
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Muhehe :D I can already see big inc. of crying posts from all those players stucked on the first or second boss in GA for weeks or months.
 
Man this is going to be hillarious ... and if Carbine will listen to them (AGAIN), atleast I got plan B ready .. archage or back to wow :)	
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{| class="blockquote"
What does this mean for the rest of us?
Those of us that put countless hours into bugged out Vet Dungeon bosses to acquire Silver medals.
Bragging rights?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yeah but if you take 4 hours to kill X-89 you still killed him and still get the loot. If you take 4 hours to complete stormtalon's lair you can't even enter GA.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
For all the people who take some sort of pride in killing every living thing in an encounter, tell me how that rhino goes for you. I can't wait to taste your delicious tears when your game perspective shatters on the horns of those beasts.
 
The future posts will become very entertaining as now there are no excuses about RL problems, DC's ruining loot chances, or anxiety related issues to a countdown clock to blame for your shortcomings as a player. It's all on you, and you asked for it.
 
Good luck with GA, can't wait to hear your feedback.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Basically, the content should always be gated by the player and not the game. Make it as hard as you can no problem, but don't gate it by timers.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's the wrong reason… but as I said if it is, then the game as it was developed, pitched and sold is doomed and this will be just the first of many such accommodations.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I speak from experience. And why should the "right guild" suddenly come along when they are ready to raid? If a player doesn't have the ability or commitment or social skill to find and keep a guild, then I don't want to be their first attempt at that -- while we're raiding.
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{| class="blockquote"
I love the handful of people acting like bad players are suddenly going to flood their raids and ruin their raiding experience.
 
Heaven forbid you have to "deal with players" in an MMO.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They will… there is no gate now.
 
The raid pool will start to be filled with un-geared, under-skilled and anti-social players who could not hack the group requirements of getting attuned for a raid that is the most intense group content the MMO world has ever seen.
 
I play with plenty of players -- on my terms. It's the same reason you can't walk on to an NFL team and start playing - you suck, and do nothing to help their cause.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It hurts no one directly.
 
Indirectly this is just a temporary band-aid at best. Instead of people quitting and guilds collapsing over timed runs, it'll be GA. The lack of fun and enticing things to do for people simply not skilled enough for the more difficult content is the real culprit.
 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
I have a very simple solution to your unhappiness. All you need to do is provide 100% of the revenue for a MMO. Every one else plays for free. Then if other players bother you with their noobiness in the face of your sheer brilliance, you can ban them.
 
Sadly, you do not fund 100% of THIS MMO, so here I guess that if you stay here, you'll have to put up with other people with other interests and other constraints. *siiiiiiigh*
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{| class="blockquote"
For all the people who take some sort of pride in killing every living thing in an encounter, tell me how that rhino goes for you. I can't wait to taste your delicious tears when your game perspective shatters on the horns of those beasts.
 
The future posts will become very entertaining as now there are no excuses about RL problems, DC's ruining loot chances, or anxiety related issues to a countdown clock to blame for your shortcomings as a player. It's all on you, and you asked for it.
 
Good luck with GA, can't wait to hear your feedback.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They will… there is no gate now.
 
The raid pool will start to be filled with un-geared, under-skilled and anti-social players who could not hack the group requirements of getting attuned for a raid that is the most intense group content the MMO world has ever seen.
 
I play with plenty of players -- on my terms. It's the same reason you can't walk on to an NFL team and start playing - you suck, and do nothing to help their cause.
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{| class="blockquote"
Currently we expect players to naturally get more and more powerful over time. New dungeons, content, etc will allow players to become more geared and more used to their class. They will also have more time to purchase upgrades such as Ability Tier and AMP points. The raids will naturally get 'nerfed' over time simply because player power will continue to rise.
----
			On to new business.So, it's becoming clear this is a hasty stop-gap solution to quell the players who could not be bothered to rise to the challenge of the original content design. It is not an elegant solution, nor one that plays into the strength of the game - the skill ceiling. In fact, it greatly lowers the barrier through nerfing content goals, allowing vastly under-geared and under-expedrienced players into content for which they are not prepared. This, in turn, eats away at the player experience of those who prefer to form proper teams and do the content as intended.The challenge to you, Carbine, is to put your money where your mouth is. Instead of stopping here, why not add something back to the process that requires skill and teamwork be the primary driver to access the raid?I have two suggestions:1) Require Gold dungeon completion with no timersor2) Require any medal completion to require a fully pre-made group, not a randomly-matched pugEither of these will show commitment that you want practiced teams of players doing your content, allowing you to keep up the difficulty. If you do not somehow increase the difficulty of the attunement to reinforce team chemistry then it simple becomes the facilitation of solo players deeper into the group progression path which means a poor experience for ALL players, and eventual content nerfs.Heck, I have a 3rd idea:3) Provide the solo end-game progression that was so highly touted but nonexistent in the game. This will give these players something to do that isn't a hardcore group environment which they cannot excel in, and will not put in the effort to try.	
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{| class="blockquote"
So, it's becoming clear this is a hasty stop-gap solution to quell the players who could not be bothered to rise to the challenge of the original content design. It is not an elegant solution, nor one that plays into the strength of the game - the skill ceiling. 
----
			I said it before. Dungeon timers are just bad. Encourage abuse of bugs and skipping as much as possible.There is nothing hardcore about running past mobs. It's disgusting.What they should have done is set timers for the boss fights and require that you kill everything in the dungeon. Everything!I understand that is a lot more coding and the population of raiders might not survive long enough for that kind of fancy coding. So I'm cool with this change.Maybe we can just pug in peace and learn together instead of the Silver and gold mentality.Cheers, Carbine. Good on you.#hardcore
			
				
	Edited August 12, 2014 by BusterCasey
	
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			Probably a good idea, the super casual guild I'm in has 2 players started out attunement. Without timers in dungeons they most probably would just start the long progress to raiding instead of just rage quitting at vet dungeons which has already effected some of the lvl 50s.	
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That's a good point, definitely valid. But my problem is the fact that attunements have always been that kind of "Right of passage", you know?
You spent time, effort, long hours, studying, etc. to get that attunement done. But with it nerfed, it doesn't mean anything.
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I said it before. Dungeon timers are just bullshit. Encourage abuse of bugs and skipping as much as possible.
 
There is nothing hardcore about running past mobs. It's disgusting.
 
What they should have done is set timers for the boss fights and require that you kill everything in the dungeon. Everything!
 
I understand that is a lot more coding and the population of raiders might not survive long enough for that kind of fancy coding. So I'm cool with this change.
 
Also gtfo people trying to pug gold. Delusional elitists. Go run with friends and stop inflicting yourself on the newblets.
 
This game has become more elitist than ddo in its heyday. Lol. Circles, guilds, good lucky being a new player.
 
 
Maybe we can just pug in peace and learn together instead of the Silver and gold mentality.
 
Cheers, Carbine. Good on you.
 
#hardcore
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No, that's also bull. It should have remained 300, but not sent you back to places that you have no business being in by that point of progression.
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You know, I've been a raider in dozens of games for 15 years now. I've had my share of server firsts and even a few world firsts along the way. I've been in the guild that figures out the fights and posts the strats that everyone else follows.
 
I've also been a "casual". I've been in work situations where I could only play one day a week at prime time. I've come into games years behind other players and had to try and catch up when no one cared about grouping for the lower stuff anymore. I've been that newbie who's just trying to learn and who gets insulted and patronized for not being good enough.
 
I've noticed a few themes this week with people coming to Evindra and joining my guild. Almost all of the new folks joining Evindra seem to be saying the same thing when they join, or when we take them on that first dungeon run. Seriously, like 8 that I talked to just this past weekend.
- My old server was really empty and it was depressing.
- All I ever saw in chat was people complaining.
- No one ever wanted to group for anything normal mode, only the highest level stuff.
- No guild would recruit me because I wasn't silver attuned.
- I joined a group and I got yelled at because I made a mistake.
 
So to everyone freaked out by this change, I challenge you with this. If this is such a slap in the face to you, if you care so much about enforcing a bar and saying "you must be this tall to ride", and if you give a damn about keeping the game fun for everyone playing it - then maybe you should think about whether YOU are contributing to these problems.
 
Being "hardcore" isn't about beating a timer. It's not about downing something first. It's not about keeping score. If you're focused on that, you're doing it wrong.
 
It's about turning the playing of the game into an art form. It's about being able to work as a team, even when everyone's not at the top of their game. It's about being able to think on your feet and adapt so that when that healer is in the wrong place at the wrong time, it doesn't wipe you. It's about being able to get back up and give it another try even when you've wiped 20 times, and still be laughing about it. And most importantly, it's about recognizing that YOU influence the game experience of everyone else around you. YOU can choose whether that influence is a positive one, that inspires folks to be better at the game, or a negative one, that causes them to leave.
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I said it before. Dungeon timers are just bad. Encourage abuse of bugs and skipping as much as possible.
 
 
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What they should have done is set timers for the boss fights and require that you kill everything in the dungeon. Everything!
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I already have 300 partial primal patterns... so I'm indifferent....
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			Gold is when nobody dies at dungeons, which is much harder to the old silver dungeon attunement with timers.	
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Hey everybody, 
 
This is just a remember to keep the discussion friendly and constructive. Discuss the idea and don't attack the person posting it.	
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Everything!  In KV, you need to go up both sets of stair cases!  Because that makes sense.  In SSM, after doing a full circuit around the middle, you need to comb every alternate path through each area.  Leave no bee unsquashed!  Who cares what optional boss you have in STL, those jump pads better be activated and those top areas cleared.  And don't you dare stick to the main path in Skullcano, you need to be ranging wide and far, delving down every side route to pull all those out-of-the-way trash packs.  And be sure to book it into the Bosun fight, lest you forget to tag the ones he kills and lose out on silver.
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There is nothing hardcore about running past mobs. It's disgusting. 
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The good is that more people will get to raid, the bad undoubtedly is that this simply moves the barrier. As those saying they will not complain about raids difficulty must think us to be naive. If complaining was not your first response to meeting content that's harder, you wouldn't have done so on dungeons so that habit is already formed and mostly even before entering this game. 
 
A change from silver to bronze does make things easier, as bronze requires a lot less consistent play, while silver requires you to play consistent for the time in there, this consistent play is required in raids as they often have mechanics in were a single player mistake from yes, just a dps can wipe you. A single player can often make a difference between you one shotting something and it taking the whole evening and raids last hours longer then your average silver dungeon.
 
My only concern is this, a repeat of cataclysm, where one week we faced a fine tuned fight requiring as good as all alive, the week after all things got nerfed in across the board making it so we could do all content on heroic with less then a full group on 25 man, now this is an extreme example but it's something we experienced before and yes said content being nerfed does reduce our enjoyment of doing said content. 
Now, i only have Ohmna left to do, so if they start nerfing i was at least lucky to experience the content as intended. That does not however make me happy if i can do everything blindly the week after as replay ability is as important in raids.
 
So TT, While i can accept something has to be done and you did say GA will not be touched beyond bug fixing, i believe the same was mentioned for silver dungeons. However you can argue silver dungeons weren't touched the attunement was.
 
 
Perhaps i'm wrong and the lure of epics will be a greater motivation for people to put more effort in raids then they did in dungeons, but this is something i'll want to see before i believe that.	
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Then surely you;d support my suggestion of, instead of lowering the medal to bronze… raising it to Gold, but with no timers.. yes?
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My point is if people are going to be crybabies about one atunement nerf they should take the whole enchilada and not select certain points here..
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If every single dungeon and boss encounter was completely bug free and we were all robots incapable of making human errors then yes this would be ideal for everyone.. but Alas this cannot be.. not everyone is as good as you but it doesnt mean we suck at the game.
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The good is that more people will get to raid, the bad undoubtedly is that this simply moves the barrier. As those saying they will not complain about raids difficulty must think us to be naive. If complaining was not your first response to meeting content that's harder, you wouldn't have done so on dungeons so that habit is already formed and mostly even before entering this game. 
 
A change from silver to bronze does make things easier, as bronze requires a lot less consistent play, while silver requires you to play consistent for the time in there, this consistent play is required in raids as they often have mechanics in were a single player mistake from yes, just a dps can wipe you. A single player can often make a difference between you one shotting something and it taking the whole evening and raids last hours longer then your average silver dungeon.
 
My only concern is this, a repeat of cataclysm, where one week we faced a fine tuned fight requiring as good as all alive, the week after all things got nerfed in across the board making it so we could do all content on heroic with less then a full group on 25 man, now this is an extreme example but it's something we experienced before and yes said content being nerfed does reduce our enjoyment of doing said content. 
Now, i only have Ohmna left to do, so if they start nerfing i was at least lucky to experience the content as intended. That does not however make me happy if i can do everything blindly the week after as replay ability is as important in raids.
 
So TT, While i can accept something has to be done and you did say GA will not be touched beyond bug fixing, i believe the same was mentioned for silver dungeons. However you can argue silver dungeons weren't touched the attunement was.
 
 
Perhaps i'm wrong and the lure of epics will be a greater motivation for people to put more effort in raids then they did in dungeons, but this is something i'll want to see before i believe that.
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What this does is *ensure* that a skilled and practiced team are what it meant to complete the dungeon and access the raid. 
 
And that's what I'm talking about - this is a stop-gap to appease a certain group of players, but is not an elegant final solution. Putting skill back into it by RAISING the medal to gold, but removing the timers from medal runs would be more in line with what Carbine promnised to deliver for WildStar.
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The only problem I have with this is that this statement is also completely true for Silver Dungeons. These same factors would have also naturally nerfed the Silver attunement.
 
If this is the reason that raids will not be nerfed, what, other than the complaints on the forum made these changes necessary? What will happen if people demand raids to be easier? If this "Natural" process is too slow for them, will you stick to your guns?
 
Changing the timer means nothing to me, changing the timer due to outcry creates a dangerous precedent.
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