126204-global-lfg-channel-non-player-controlled-page-2

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Actually, the majority of the raiding population hates me with a passion, and is glad I'm gone. Its mostly the "casual" people that don't have an issue.
 
 
Though this is true. LFG isn't optional at this point; if you want to do anything other than queue for dungeons and sit for hours in the queue (which I do regularly now), then LFG is your only option.
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			I've also had my share of flaming whispers etc...It seems this game is full of ppl thinking this game is their own home basement that they own and rules over. Everytime you start a conversation about Things Carbine needs to improve on you get flamed and warnings here and there. Ppl are so upthight its sick. One does not need how  to Write a novel to be able to state Your oppinion about Things. say it strongly..say it With bad English...say it any way you want, as long as there is substance it is valid!!! The Carbine community person said it herself in a podcast...Give feedback anyway you want..dont have to be Nice..as long as there is information that carbine can use..they will listen...SO WHY should players take the "Law" into their own hands and start moderation shit?	
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I fixed that for you.
 
It's also debatable how "player choice" it is when it's the only reasonable way to form a group for your average player. The dungeon finder tool is not efficient as the population is not large enough. Saying the lfg channel is optional at this point in time is like saying raiding with your helmet and shoulder slots empty is optional. Sure, you can do it, but you're gonna be penalized for it heavily. 
 
When people come surging back to W* in the thousands and the server is brimming maybe then I would entertain the idea of not having a global LFG channel, but as of right now...
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Its the global LFG Fran..get Your head out of the sand! Its the same as saying...you dont want flying Mounts in World of Warcraft?..Well you can choose to only ride around on ground Mounts..Yea right! As if that is valid!
 
Its abusive and him/her knows it.
 
moderator edit: content
			
				
	Edited May 20, 2015 by Chillia	
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Be aware that this channel was made by a person, and this person's word is law in said channel.
No one is required to join it, or use it.
 
And also just for the record there has been only one person whom has ever been kicked from the channel.
Just one.
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And to the person telling me to read up on freedom of Speech: I'm one of  those fortunate souls that happen to be born in a country where freedom of Speech is mandatory by birth!! Its just sick how some ppl abuse Power..Sick to the core! The moderation should ONLY be at the hands of Carbine!! ONLY!
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As people have said, "Freedom of Speech" may not mean what you think it does: https://xkcd.com/1357/
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If you were part of a real life "channel", say a community or club that is voluntarily joined and you acted badly (no social boundaries, rudeness, unwillingness to be flexible, constant distasteful and passive aggressive attitude, being offensive just to be offensive) to the point where the people who created or ran the group had no other choice than to blacklist you to keep the stability and positivity in the community, you would be removed from said group right? Ownership can change of the group but the blacklist would remain, or would be reviewed and either withheld or changed. It's pretty much the same in the channel.
 
At least that is how I see it.
 
But I digress. I still think there should be a global LFG feature.
However, it would be used as a chat channel...	
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We are not talking about some freemasonary closed/Secret society here. We are talking about the chat channel all ppl use to get content done in a Group!
 
Ppl With personal agendas and "rules" can create their own guild and apply said rules...I dont care..I will never join that guild, but the Global channel is realy realy needed in a game With such low player base as ws. You cant have that be "policed" by players.
 
The only ones imo that can "police" anything is the Guildes themselves "policing" their own members and Carbine will for the rest of the game!	
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We are not talking about some freemasonary closed/Secret society here. We are talking about the chat channel all ppl use to get content done in a Group!
 
Ppl With personal agendas and "rules" can create their own guild and apply said rules...I dont care..I will never join that guild, but the Global channel is realy realy needed in a game With such low player base as ws. You cant have that be "policed" by players.
 
The only ones imo that can "police" anything is the Guildes themselves "policing" their own members and Carbine will for the rest of the game!
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We are not talking about some freemasonary closed/Secret society here. We are talking about the chat channel all ppl use to get content done in a Group!
 
Ppl With personal agendas and "rules" can create their own guild and apply said rules...I dont care..I will never join that guild, but the Global channel is realy realy needed in a game With such low player base as ws. You cant have that be "policed" by players.
 
The only ones imo that can "police" anything is the Guildes themselves "policing" their own members and Carbine will for the rest of the game!
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I wasn't describing a secret society. I was talking about an open club for anyone to join. You expected to be spoken to like shit in a place that someone set up for others to use and noone do anything about it? If it was carbine run, the only thing people would be able to do is /ignore the player, which is what should be done in my opinion. 
 
I'm against this whole "kicking" thing, but seriously... personal agendas... policing? It's a chat channel on a game that is player run, what do you expect?	
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I wasn't describing a secret society. I was talking about an open club for anyone to join. You expected to be spoken to like shit in a place that someone set up for others to use and noone do anything about it? If it was carbine run, the only thing people would be able to do is /ignore the player, which is what should be done in my opinion. 
 
I'm against this whole "kicking" thing, but seriously... personal agendas... policing? It's a chat channel on a game that is player run, what do you expect?
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The only reason we bring the policing thing up is because Fran is using it as an example of "the community" taking care of itself. I personally think that concept is bullshit; it's more like a small private school where a couple of people have decided that one person doesn't get to eat lunch in the cafeteria.
 
The lack of a global channel is a very odd thing for an MMO. Just because a Carbine employee stated that they removed it for a reason doesn't mean it was a smart decision. I mean, all of the other bad ideas that made it into this game were put in for a reason too, and Carbine has fixed them to make the game better. Well, a global channel would make the game better.
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Well technically it is. I know it's only a small amount of people doing the "policing" but in their opinion they're doing the right thing (they're not, they could just use the ignore function).
 
I agree that global LFG should be a thing, however the only thing that is wrong with global if the population increased would be the use of it as a chat, spam and abuse channel. It was like that in Archeage and it was horrible. My ignore list filled up in about an hour :(
 
I just don't think people should get their panties in a twist because the owners of the channel are acting like usual, spiteful, petty human beings (all of us do at some times, to say we don't would be a lie :p)	
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Eum, there's many MMO's without global channels.
There's channels that cross all cities for example, or a few zones together, but it's been a long time since I played a game with a channel that was truly global and could be accessed from anywhere.
And with good reason, as the "spam" becomes too much at some point. Simply hopping in and out the whole time is a pain too.
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We are not talking about some freemasonary closed/Secret society here. We are talking about the chat channel all ppl use to get content done in a Group!
 
Ppl With personal agendas and "rules" can create their own guild and apply said rules...
 
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How did this person come to be in charge? Was ownership just given randomly to them? If it works like in WoW, channel ownership changes as people log in and out. So if I was channel admin, then logged out, it was randomly pass to another user of the channel. 
 
How does it work here? The same way? If so, I think your position is a boat with a bunch of holes in it and you're defending the indefensible. If I'm going to be subjected to the whims of some nerd on a powertrip in his mom's basement as my only viable way to make groups in this game  then don't expect a nice Hard Candy. I mean, writing a mod that blackballs a dude automatically? Do you have any idea how dehumanizing that must feel? Why they still play this game is honestly beyond me. I'd be long gone for a community that has a spine. 
 
What if ownership of the channel just so happened to fall to me one night? I think I'd kick you, beattlebilly. I mean, I don't like your opinions. Isn't that enough? 
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It's bullying. I mean, let's just call a spade a spade.
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My opinion is based on the info I'm given. What I have read so far has led me to believe that there is one person in charge of the channel, and that ownership of the channel was passed to another person, ownership is something that had to be physically set to another, it's not "random"(like your WoW example). If it's not a set ownership, then yes it would change my opinion. Though TBQH I don't know how you got that from the way I've been talking, because I've been talking like it's one specific person in charge(hence my guild/circle leader analogy).
 
If you were the set owner of a chat channel, guild, and/or circle and I somehow became intolerable to you and you felt I didn't belong there anymore, sure I'd be a little miffed(who wouldn't in that kind of situation? LMAO). But I'm a big girl now, I know how to handle rejection. I'd just move on and find someplace that's a better fit.
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Does this same thing happen on the EU side?
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			No, the global channel here at least on Dommy side is very pleasant. However, I assume if someone was causing issues they would be on everyone's ignore list and not making addons to block them...	
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For me at least the problem is that even Carbine staff is pointing people to this channel now, while it is player run.
 
Does this same thing happen on the EU side?
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Well, to be fair, the problem with ignore is that you still have to read the conversations of those responding to the person who haven't ignored him.
 
Not saying that it was right or not (I actually am leaning toward "not"), but I do understand the desire to not want to see any conversations having to do with him.	
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And that's why Carbine should bring back a global channel. And also, I think they should add channels for the different level ranges(Rift is an example that comes to mind, only because I was just back in that game the other day and noticed I was in the lvl 1-29 channel :P).
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For the global chat, the more people talk about it, the more I am against it actually. If anything, maybe a level restriction per chat zone. Maybe a 1-19, 20-39, 40-49 and then a 50. Will try to limit the spam a bit (while most would be at 50 any way). I seen this before, think it was Rift, and it was pretty cool. ANother idea to build onto it, you could use the chats of level brackets below you, but not above (a level 34 could type in 1-19 and 20-39 but not type/see 40-49 and 50).
 
EDIT: Looks like beattle beat me to it :-P
 
moderator edit: content
			
				
	Edited May 20, 2015 by Chillia	
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What I have read so far has led me to believe that there is one person in charge of the channel, and that ownership of the channel was passed to another person, ownership is something that had to be physically set to another, it's not "random"(like your WoW example).  If it's not a set ownership, then yes it would change my opinion.  Though TBQH I don't know how you got that from the way I've been talking, because I've been talking like it's one specific person in charge(hence my guild/circle leader analogy).
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A player made channel for public use has no right to be moderated by anyone other than Carbine. You are not the law, and you have no rights over anyone else. 
 
A player made channel intended for personal use amongst friends etc, should be moderated by the creator, BUT password protected. /chjoin mychannel <password>
The pass-wording of the channel will invoke personal modding capability.
 
Carbine, fix this.
 
moderator edit: language 
			
				
	Edited May 20, 2015 by Chillia	
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From what I understand the person who made the channel doesn't even play the game anymore. 
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A player made channel for public use has no right to be moderated by anyone other than Carbine. You are not the law, and you have no rights over anyone else. 
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That's bunk. This isn't about any one person. It's about an abuse of power that players shouldn't have in the first place. 
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			Are you referring to the "warrior with x/y ap/SP looking for a GA pug" message he posts as spam? Seems like that's the point of the channel, since it's called "lfg."	
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No, the global channel here at least on Dommy side is very pleasant. However, I assume if someone was causing issues they would be on everyone's ignore list and not making addons to block them...
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			I've been an advocate of a default global channel since beta and that hasn't changed. We all have the ability to ignore anyone we don't like listening to. 
			
				
	Edited May 20, 2015 by BusterCasey	
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If there is a clear and consistent abuse of power then the solution is simple, make your own channel.  Use zone and advice channels to let people know it exists, and that it exists free of the abusive owners of the other channel.  If there is an actual problem then the new channel should quickly take over.
 
If the "mods" of the channel were actually doing things that members of the channel didn't want, the members of the channel would quickly abandon the channel for one with different "mods".  There is zero cost to being in multiple channels, and the one that had clearly inferior moderation would die off quickly enough.
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We had someone on the Dommy side. We policed him without the need to resort to childish kicking him from LFM channel whenever he spoke in it. I haven't seen him in ages. He either finally shut up and stopped trolling everyone, or he left. 
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For the global chat, the more people talk about it, the more I am against it actually. If anything, maybe a level restriction per chat zone. Maybe a 1-19, 20-39, 40-49 and then a 50. Will try to limit the spam a bit (while most would be at 50 any way). I seen this before, think it was Rift, and it was pretty cool. ANother idea to build onto it, you could use the chats of level brackets below you, but not above (a level 34 could type in 1-19 and 20-39 but not type/see 40-49 and 50).
 
EDIT: Looks like beattle beat me to it :-P
 
moderator edit: content
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I can't really say that the way we "policed" him was any less childish than if the channel creator had just made a mod kicking him from the channel.  And yes, I'm including myself in that, I admittedly took part in it, and I can say that the way it was done, it really would have been better to just kick/block him from the channel instead of stooping to the level we did.
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Nice try, but actually this won't work at all. Channel ownership is not persistent. If you create a channel and logoff, you automatically lose ownership of the channel. You either had to hand it off to somebody else or the game does it for you.
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MANY MANY MANY people tried to help him. I tried multiple times. I gave up multiple times. I tried again multiple times. He didn't want help, he wanted to be a nuisance. The Dom side is much better off since his apparent absence, and while some things were said that I didn't always agree with (and sometimes from myself even) it was effective.... eventually. 
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Also: regardless of whether or not you agree with the moderation that is being implemented in this channel as appropriate, one thing is unambiguously clear:
 
The existing LFG channel is a player-run channel that is not a community-wide resource. The player moderators there can--and do--ban players from it even when those players have not been sanctioned by Carbine in any way for their behavior.
 
There is currently a "new player FAQ" on these forums that directs people to this channel, in spite of the fact that its moderators have made it clear that they do not intend to allow all players who want to use it to do so. 
That's a level of endorsement by Carbine that seems wildly inappropriate under the circumstances.
 
I suggest that forum moderators really should either remove the referral to the channel from the sticky, or unsticky the FAQ.	
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If the owners of the first channel taking over the second channel is an actual problem, then you can use their tools against them (i.e. autokick addon, hierarchy of ownership).  They've clearly put some work into their system, so it probably won't be trivial to break it, but its hardly impossible.
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Also: regardless of whether or not you agree with the moderation that is being implemented in this channel as appropriate, one thing is unambiguously clear:
 
The existing LFG channel is a player-run channel that is not a community-wide resource. The player moderators there can--and do--ban players from it even when those players have not been sanctioned by Carbine in any way for their behavior.
 
There is currently a "new player FAQ" on these forums that directs people to this channel, in spite of the fact that its moderators have made it clear that they do not intend to allow all players who want to use it to do so. 
That's a level of endorsement by Carbine that seems wildly inappropriate under the circumstances.
 
I suggest that forum moderators really should either remove the referral to the channel from the sticky, or unsticky the FAQ.
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So your solution to these guys not destroying any and every public channel they feel like destroying is that each of those other channels should have to create a 24/7 hierarchy of ownership?
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If the owners of the first channel taking over the second channel is an actual problem, then you can use their tools against them (i.e. autokick addon, hierarchy of ownership).  They've clearly put some work into their system, so it probably won't be trivial to break it, but its hardly impossible.
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I've already posted a couple of times in this thread, but I feel the need to reiterate. 
 
Keep the discussion on the topic of a global LFG. Personal attacks on the OP or anyone else (calling someone "toxic" for instance is name calling and not allowed) will be removed and forum warnings given.	
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No, because then you're making the situation worse.  The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
 
What needs to be done first and foremost is disallowing mods that can impact the game experience of players OTHER than the ones using it.  Imagine if someone developed an addon that kicked you out of teams formed by the LFG tool if it saw you in the team, or an addon that auto-reported you if you spoke in Zone chat.
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Please Carbine! Pull these Wannabe dictators from their "seats of Power" and make a LFG channel or something that we all can use. This shit will tear up the community! I played wow since release and while yes there are many so-called "toxic kids" there, I have started to feel that parts of the WS community is far worse...not in the use of "abusive Language", but in a more sinister form..almost like a Secret society choosing their members carefully and hitting hard Down upon those they have found "not to fit With their view". But ofc..Many ppl are wonderful too so its not all darkness:)
 
And question: What is soo bad about some toxic Language here and there...? Its normally for fun..sometimes to tease etc...most often not directed to a spesific person etc...Is the problem this? OHH my EYES..I cannot unsee what I have seen?....;)	
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Please Carbine! Pull these Wannabe dictators from their "seats of Power" and make a LFG channel or something that we all can use. This shit will tear up the community! I played wow since release and while yes there are many so-called "toxic kids" there, I have started to feel that parts of the WS community is far worse...not in the use of "abusive Language", but in a more sinister form..almost like a Secret society choosing their members carefully and hitting hard Down upon those they have found "not to fit With their view". But ofc..Many ppl are wonderful too so its not all darkness:)
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Almost like a Secret society choosing their members carefully and hitting hard Down upon those they have found "not to fit With their view".
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Again, it all depends on the offense. If a person is singled out for "not with their view", then their use of power is abusive. But if he/she is someone who is being abusive toward others, then it's arguably a good move.
 
And I don't like slippery slop arguments. It could be good in one case and bad in the next.
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Please Carbine! Pull these Wannabe dictators from their "seats of Power" and make a LFG channel or something that we all can use
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I respect that it is your oppinion, however in my oppinion, it is NEVER ok for a common player to kick anyone from a "public" channel...even if the offender was abusive towards others. You report that player and Carbine needs to do the "law-enforcement"..
 
I dont know what slippery slope argument means..it must be american...
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I never got this vibe at all. From the top level players to the more casual players I've found nearly everyone I've played with open to giving advice, answering new player questions, and generally helping the community, even if their viewpoints are completely different. Global LFG from carbine might be a good idea, but the fact that the players put one together and made it work is good on the community. Based on that fact, the rhetoric in this thread is overly emotional, inflammatory, and unnecessary. Words like "dictator," "censor," and "bullying" don't apply and are purposeless and inflammatory.  While I would agree that it would be better if the process was more transparent, [transparency is good], just because someone was banned from a channel doesn't mean the channel owners are necessarily abusing their power (as SlyJeff pointed out).
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Slippery-slope is logical device that is often a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question.
 
Its also called opening the floodgates
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Actually, I'm finding the complete absence of any developer commentary about a faction-wide channel to be really remarkable here--particularly coming off of the bad press this game just took from this same type of "community policing" on the reddit boards.
 
Every MMORPG that I know of has a game-provided, default, community-wide channel that can be used for LFG except this one. And the people running the player-controlled channel in this game have now proven themselves unable or unwilling to allow that channel to be used as a community-wide resource.
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Keeping one person out is hardly destroying.  
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Again, it all depends on the offense. If a person is singled out for "not with their view", then their use of power is abusive. But if he/she is someone who is being abusive toward others, then it's arguably a good move.
 
And I don't like slippery slop arguments. It could be good in one case and bad in the next.
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It was an abusive offence! I'm not saying they are evil or all the time abusive...I'm saying..It is very bad for a game to give allow such potential "power" to players.
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			pretty much..leave any game to be "handled" by the public....and you will see the worlds largest gathering of red neck preppers, alongside milities from under all rocks, the moterhood charity organisation for spanking their children that spit on the street and last but not least...the toxic kids....all of them..together..taking over power;)	
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I think they are what do you call it when someone are not allowed to talk? 
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No, you cannot say this without knowing why the ban happened.
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If someone is abusive to others in my guild, my GM will kick them. If someone is abusive in my circle, I will kick them. These things are in player control, and denying them the chance to participate is not an abuse of power.
 
Now the legitimate question is whether a channel should be like a guild or circle, or if it should not be administered by players. But given that the games does allow administration of channels like guilds are circles, it's not completely out of line for the administrators to deal with someone misbehaving.
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oki they might be evil all the time then, and abusive by nature....
 
 
ANY moderation of a public channel by a player IS abusive...no matter what the ban was based on!
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guild and circles has NOTHING to do with public channels imo! 
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You are making a lot of assumptions about a situation where you don't know the details. "Abuse" can have many definitions, but the definition I use is when you harm others out of selfishness. If the goal was to keep the channel cleaner and more comfortable for people to read, then it's not abuse.
 
Further, if moderation of a public channel is by nature abusive, then Carbine shouldn't allow it. Which is the point of the thread, and it could change. But at the moment, Carbine has said that it's NOT abusive for a player to administer a channel.
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They are all player created groups that can be administered by players.
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there is a difference between administrating and moderating..see? And where do they say that?
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If someone is abusive to others in my guild, my GM will kick them. If someone is abusive in my circle, I will kick them. These things are in player control, and denying them the chance to participate is not an abuse of power.
 
Now the legitimate question is whether a channel should be like a guild or circle, or if it should not be administered by players. But given that the games does allow administration of channels like guilds are circles, it's not completely out of line for the administrators to deal with someone misbehaving.
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If there is a clear and consistent abuse of power then the solution is simple, make your own channel.  Use zone and advice channels to let people know it exists, and that it exists free of the abusive owners of the other channel.  If there is an actual problem then the new channel should quickly take over.
 
 
If the "mods" of the channel were actually doing things that members of the channel didn't want, the members of the channel would quickly abandon the channel for one with different "mods".  There is zero cost to being in multiple channels, and the one that had clearly inferior moderation would die off quickly enough.
 
 
I've always felt that when you ignore someone you concede defeat in all potential discussions that would have happened while they are being ignored.  I'm also stubborn enough to pursue an argument with someone until they have me on ignore.
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guild and circles has NOTHING to do with public channels imo!
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Because players can actually do it . . . They wouldn't put a feature in the game and they say it's abusive to use that feature . . .
 
Certainly it's intended that players are able to remove players from channels.
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I highly doubt they anticipated someone making an auto-kick mod that's always running when the player using it is logged in.  IMO, that's a bot, and botting is a no-no.
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There are essentially two different discussions happening here.
 
1) Carbine should/should not implement a global chat channel (or set of channels).
 
2) The ethics of players muting/kicking other players from a player-made (yet Carbine supported) chat channel.
 
Point one has been suggested multiple times.
 
And those aren't even all of the instances of it being brought up.
 
To add to the discussion, yes, I believe that Carbine should implement a suite of Global channels. I think I have a post somewhere in one of those many threads supporting the implementation. Carbine support could be withdrawn from the current channel which would eliminate the need to discuss whether or not it is ethical to "kick" players from a player-made (and controlled) channel/community.
 
My position has always been that without people regularly announcing that it's there, many new players in low level zones don't know that LFG exists and can feel isolated and alone (Hello, that was me when I was leveling). They don't reach the capital cities until pretty late into their leveling, and that is where you will find the majority of players. Instead they may believe that the game is dead or that there is no one to play with or help them. (Advice is also zone limited.) If I am passing through a low level zone, I will make an announcement talking about LFG, instructing how to join, how to use it, and give a warning about story spoilers and trollish behavior. Then it's up to the players to decide whether or not to join. But this is a highly impractical "solution" to the problem of new players being isolated and feeling as though there's no one out there.
 
If perhaps there were further reason to head out to the lower level zones (which I had been under the impression the Contracts were possibly going to help with, though they did not) as max level characters, I don't think it would be as much of an issue. But as it stands, the only multi-zone chat is Isigrol continent chat. This does not help new players who are just starting out. And frankly, I've made the same announcements there as well, knowing that some people have leveled that far and still not joined the chat channel.
 
So tl;dr I wholeheartedly support an opt-out Global channel. In fact, I think a suite of Global channels ranging from general chat (which frankly, is what the current channel is used for) to LFG, Advice, etc. would be a good idea.
 
Now, in regards to 2)
 
Even though this channel is essentially "endorsed" by Carbine, it is still player created and player run. Whether or not the current mod(s) of the channel created the channel, whether or not channel ownership bounces around, the reality is that even public channels with no password are player-created. If the player base finds that the mods of a channel are too restrictive or power hungry, or if the channel gets handed off to someone with a power complex... well. The rest of the players can leave. The "community" can create another channel, a new channel. Though as has been pointed out, if someone (or a group of someones) were so incredibly determined enough, they could shut down that channel too.
 
But all of this is frankly, incredibly hypothetical and veering into slippery slope territory. It does, however, make for a very good argument in favor of Carbine creating their own Global chat channel(s). Which, as previously stated, I completely agree with.
 
I will not comment on the particular incident directly. But I would say that while it may not be a pleasant thing, and while others may have somewhat justifiable concerns about power-crazy mods potentially abusing their powers, the reality is that this channel has always been a player run channel. And that is essentially the root of the problem. It should have never been in the hands of the players to take this responsibility upon themselves. All of this arguing about /ignore and hurt feelings could have been prevented by the existence of a Carbine-made channel.
 
EDIT: I suppose there is a 3rd position/argument to consider: Vince's position of the automation of said "kicking."
 
Basically whether it is a violation of existing rules governing gameplay to have an addon that automatically removes a player or players from the player-controlled channel. My opinion on this point is that the automation is indeed problematic and questionable. And that yes, there is a difference between continually and manually taking action, and having an addon that does it for you. It's much like the difference between the people who were renown farming by holding a button down with their finger, versus those using either a weight on their keyboard or a macro.
			
				
	Edited May 20, 2015 by veluriel	
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We've been using this term "public" channel pretty loosely. I would argue that lfg is a private channel thats made available to the public. Zone, trade, advice, pvp, say, yell, etc ... those are public channels. They are created by carbine. LFG is created by players and used by the public.  
 
To take another example from the real world, lets take two parks. One park is owned by the city. That's a public park. Park two is owned by a private corporation, but is often used for city events and the city tells people who are new to town to  check out that private park. Now, the city gets to set the rules governing the use of park one. The corporation on the other hand, gets to set the rules governing the use of park two. Now, lets say in this scenario, the city allows people to drink in public parks, but the private corporation doesn't. Can someone who went to park two then complain to the city when they kicked out of the park for drinking? No. On the other hand, lets say that the city has a law that business can't discriminate against people who wear flip-flops. Now, if someone gets kicked out of the private park for wearing flip-flops, they have cause to go to the city and complain. 
 
Now to complete this reasoning from analogy, suppose the private park is in the center of the city and is integral to getting around the city on foot. The question then becomes should the city take over that park due to its important placement within the city or is it reasonable to allow the private company to govern the use of that park. 	
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			if that mod is a bot then virags multicrafter would have to be considered a bot as well	
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if that mod is a bot then virags multicrafter would have to be considered a bot as well
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			im just replying to vinces argument. if you consider that addon a bot, then you have to say virags multicrafter addon is a bot as well and say goodbye to the entire population of wildstar because almost everyone has at one time or another used it. so weve all botted..............	
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Is it legal to run a mod that impacts another player's experience directly such as this one does? 
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im just replying to vinces argument. if you consider that addon a bot, then you have to say virags multicrafter addon is a bot as well and say goodbye to the entire population of wildstar because almost everyone has at one time or another used it. so weve all botted..............
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Multicrafter cannot be used to interfere with the actions of other players or multi-user systems in the game, can it?  I mean as far as I know crafting only requires one person.  This auto-kick addon actually automates systems other players use.
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Let me ask you a question...... Would this entire argument even exist if ONE person didn't troll the server to the point of being disliked by the majority of the population?
 
Why do you think it took so long for the kick/mute functions of player channels to even be found even though they have been in the game since launch?
 
Does anyone else in the entire game cause this much turmoil and agitation?
 
okay that was 3 questions......
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there are all kinds of arguments i can throw at this one. Blocking NPC with vendors/mounts. Causing people to
unintentionally pvp flag and get killed during big events so they don't get credit. Using Bailout during events/raids.
 
All these things interfere with the actions of other players.
Virags multicrafter automates crafting.
 
the addon that bans people from a player made channel just does both of these points of your argument in 1.
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being locked out of 1 player made chat channel doesn't hinder your gameplay. How many people already don't use the lfg channel, is it hindering their gameplay any?
 
This argument is based on the idea of its impossible to play/enjoy wildstar without the /lfg channel. Pretty sure if everyone on the server left /lfg channel they would still play and enjoy the game. There are plenty of other ways to communicate globally...... Circles/Guilds.
 
Serverwide channels actually take away from these slightly. Who remembers joining world boss circles? Do we do any circles like this anymore? No... How come?
 
Now the main use of circles is to put a witty tag or advertisement under your name.
 
 
Lets say you like to go out dancing religiously every weekend, and i owned the greatest dance club in the world. I let you in my club once and you started to cause turmoil with my other customers so i blacklist you. Would you just stop dancing? or go find someplace else to go dancing? or try to repair the way you behaved so you wouldn't be black listed anymore? or go complain to the dance club council that I told my bouncers not to let you in my dance club anymore?	
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being locked out of 1 player made chat channel doesn't hinder your gameplay. How many people already don't use the lfg channel, is it hindering their gameplay any?
 
This argument is based on the idea of its impossible to play/enjoy wildstar without the /lfg channel. Pretty sure if everyone on the server left /lfg channel they would still play and enjoy the game. There are plenty of other ways to communicate globally...... Circles/Guilds.
 
Serverwide channels actually take away from these slightly. Who remembers joining world boss circles? Do we do any circles like this anymore? No... How come?
 
Now the main use of circles is to put a witty tag or advertisement under your name.
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And that's exactly why the game should disallow addons that automate services other players can use.
 
I ask you this:  Should addons be able to control the game experience of players OTHER than the ones using the addon?
 
 
 
 
Whether or not the person has earned that hate is not something I care about.  I care about people using automated addons to modify the gameplay of other players.
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I have no argument for this besides you thinking that the /lfg channel is needed for enjoyable gameplay.
 
If i was autokicked from a player made channel automatically id just forget it even existed and pursue other means of communicating.
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I have no argument for this besides you thinking that the /lfg channel is needed for enjoyable gameplay.
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I have no argument for this besides you thinking that the /lfg channel is needed for enjoyable gameplay.
 
If i was autokicked from a player made channel automatically id recognize that its a player made channel not essential to the game and just forget it even existed and pursue other means of communicating.
 
If the mod somehow stopped someone from using the group finder, joining guilds or circles, or being able to talk in actual game chat channels then there might be an issue.
 
once again /LFG is player made and NOT required to play the game.
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Oh, so now the LFG channel isn't an "actual" game chat channel? Your arguments get worse and worse. 
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I'll repeat myself:  I don't care about Sciela's reputation.  I'll add to that that I don't care whether or not people use player-made channels.
 
I DO care that there is an addon made to specifically kick people without any user input.
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Either way, lets agree that there should be a global LFG channel.
 
If someone is abusing it, carbine should deal with it instead of people being accused of being "abusers" (which by the way, using that term is utterly an overreaction) by trying to moderate their own private chat channel they set up for the community.
 
Yes, the mod seems harsh. But I feel context is a big thing in this actual issue. This is an isolated incident as far as I'm aware.	
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Either way, lets agree that there should be a global LFG channel.
 
If someone is abusing it, carbine should deal with it instead of people being accused of being "abusers" (which by the way, using that term is utterly an overreaction) by trying to moderate their own private chat channel they set up for the community.
 
Yes, the mod seems harsh. But I feel context is a big thing in this actual issue. This is an isolated incident as far as I'm aware.
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			put yourself in the mods position. If someone kept causing turmoil with your friends in your chat channel would you just let them continue to join and continue to cause problems anyways?	
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put yourself in the mods position. If someone kept causing turmoil with your friends in your chat channel would you just let them continue to join and continue to cause problems anyways?
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			so until they fix the bug you and your friends are subject to the harassment of this player constantly rejoining your channel and causing problems even though you are able to come up with a way to stop this player from joining the channel in the mean time?	
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I'd file a bug on the fact that the chat system has such a gaping hole in it.
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so until they fix the bug you and your friends are subject to the harassment of this player constantly rejoining your channel and causing problems even though you are able to come up with a way to stop this player from joining the channel in the mean time?
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I agree with what Kipit said in regards to your argument Vince. You'd be tasked with providing the proof that this addon is effecting a person's gameplay outside of acceptable parameters. Which basically means you'd be arguing that a creator/administrator/moderator of a player created channel should not have the ability to moderate said channel. Since they do have that ability, this addon doesn't do anything outside of what is already under their purview. It doesn't give them any abilities they don't normally have.
 
Yes, it's a flaw in the chat system. Hence the creation of an addon just like numerous other addons were created to address the flaws in some of the other game systems.	
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Also, I think we're missing the forest for the trees here. We've completely ignored what an achievement it is to be the only known person from either region to get banned from their server's LFG channel. That's a massive accomplishment.
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No, what you're proposing is a red herring. 
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I expect that the next time the server comes up from routine maintenance is going to be a real test of the speed with which players can login and join LFG. Fun times!
 
And if the current "owners" of the channel don't win the race, I will continue to lobby for an actual global, Carbine-moderated LFG channel. Because I wouldn't want them locked out of LFG any more than I want it to happen to the player(s?) who are currently blacklisted and autokicked.	
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 The channel you are arguing about is player created.  Therefore not "public" and subject to most of the same controls that guilds and circles have. 
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Weird, I checked dictionary.com and came up with this - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke
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First: if it's not a public channel then the game shouldn't be trying to send every new player to it.
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Whether or not CRB does is their prerogative of course.  The new player FAQ itself is player developed.  If they're going to take action it'll likely take a few days because this will require meetings.
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2. Carbine implements global channels.
 
Consequence: The vast majority of LFG will continue to sit in the custom channel and a few brave souls will sit in the global channels to redirect new people to the custom channel.
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Of course, you're right. I note with interest that this bold new moderation policy for the channel did not pop up until shortly after community feedback on the player-developed "new player FAQ" was closed and the FAQ was stickied. 
 
I hope this fascinating coincidence in timing is brought up at any meetings that are planned.
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1. Dude chill out you are seeing conspiracies everywhere
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One person here wrote a very good point. I cant find it but it had to do with guilds have limited number of members allowed (Actually allowed by the game developer..not the guild itself), maybe because the game developers dont want the guild to be so massive that it will create its personal "political" agenda etc..Cause we all know that officers can kick whomever they like...but with relatively small guilds you can always find a guild that will "fit your nature".
 
The problem with this player created global chat is that its like a guild chat that have most players on the server...hence..the problems with "politics and enforcement". Every player that wants to get something done in ws will join this channel. You can choose to not join it, but you will gimp yourself!
 
I dont know why Carbine allowed creation of such things...maybe its because they dont have the manpower to maintain such a channel themselves? Is it an experiment? (not likely)...is it just an oversight?..they did not identify the great risk of allowing this? 
 
Maybe this player created channel might have worked in some games...maybe in games where ppl did not care so much..a more casual game if you like. Caring deeply about a game is a double edged sword. I have seen countless times on the ws forum that ppl i tend to find deeply caring about ws will abuse their power IF it was given to them. Countless times I have seen posts suggesting what they would have done if they had the power. I was ONLY calm and content becasue I thought these ppl did not have the power, but lately.....reddit moderation...global chat moderation...has got me worried...ppl I would never trust with power seems to have it to a certain degree...not good!
 
Please Carbine...control your game yourself! You are neutral..you made the game and dont favorize any "kind" of players.	
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Maybe this player created channel might have worked in some games...
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I've never seen anything like this happen in any other MMOs. Some player created channels that are very popular? Sure. But nothing on the scale of essentially being required to have a consistently enjoyable experience.
 
Wildstar's community is remarkably insular, and seems very unaware of how things go for those who have not been playing the game consistently since launch. Regardless of the drama over one player being banned, the fact of the matter is that segmenting the player base via something that you have to actively find out and join, that is considered a necessity at this point is not healthy for the game.
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Actually do something about us reporting people for spam and such and call it a day, a global chat would clean up pretty quickly. Just make sure the trials can see but not chat in the global channel.
 
RE: The custom LFG channel. I've never joined it, I don't particularly find myself hampered by having not but I know others might. I agree with people not being happy there isn't an official one.
 
Also, streamline the chat channel customization window. Right now it's not very option-providing or informative. I feel like a global channel could somehow be filtered (only show posts with the words "LFG", "LFM", etc.) by the player's choices. That way you can have the people who want to talk about whatever the heck they want, but you have the option to EASILY ignore it. Pre-emptively ignore it, at that.
 
 
However, the whole banning thing, this group of people did something allowed by the game's functionality. There's nothing cheating/breaking of ToS about it, it's just a course of action some people disagree with. The LFG channel we have is a custom player-made channel which SHOULD follow the rules of any custom-made chat channel. I sure wouldn't want someone to try to /chjoin my chat channel and I can do nothing if they're just there to disrupt it.	
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Also, streamline the chat channel customization window. Right now it's not very option-providing or informative. I feel like a global channel could somehow be filtered (only show posts with the words "LFG", "LFM", etc.) by the player's choices. That way you can have the people who want to talk about whatever the heck they want, but you have the option to EASILY ignore it. Pre-emptively ignore it, at that.
 
 
However, the whole banning thing, this group of people did something allowed by the game's functionality. There's nothing cheating/breaking of ToS about it, it's just a course of action some people disagree with. The LFG channel we have is a custom player-made channel which SHOULD follow the rules of any custom-made chat channel. I sure wouldn't want someone to try to /chjoin my chat channel and I can do nothing if they're just there to disrupt it.
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yes,...I'm not entirely sure what insular means, but is it like sticking the head in the sand and avoid reality? ;) then yes;)
 
and yes..the drama is not realy about just ONE player..and it should not..its about that players WILL abuse their power IF it is given to them! And...As i judge it..power HAS BEEN abused!
 
and yes sir you got it:)
 
The funny thing is...I sometimes feel like a "wicked child" both on these forums and in game....I have this feeling hanging over me that I am being watched by critical, ready to strike eyes of an overly protective parent...a parent delutional of the modern time and age..a parent that is so set in her/his ways that they will go to any measure to "educate me"!
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Insular means inward - looking and unconcerned with what happens outside of the group/small community.
 
And yes, I know the feeling... Better watch what you say! Although honestly these days LFG is mostly a channel for every topic except looking for a group, unless that group is going to Star Comm or Scorchwing.
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Is it legal to run a mod that impacts another player's experience directly such as this one does? 
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			one funny thing..I'm from Europe..and as I see little respons from those who disagree with me on this topic..hmm why?--->..americans are sleeping now.--->.THAT concludes: Most of those who dont mind player moderation are americans;) Hmm does this tell us anything?;)	
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I still believe, without a Carbine created channel for LFG, the LFG channel is a great resource. I hope that those who control it do so in a way that is constructive to the community. Thus far, I see no evidence that they are not. Kicking one player and preventing him from participating is not enough evidence to know that they are abusing their power. Again, about this specific example we can't get into it, but without knowing details you just really can't judge whether power was abused or not. If people start getting banned left and right, then you might start really having to ask questions.
 
 
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:) TBO I dont mind general chat in any channel...its just part of mmo imo:) and you do also get usefull info about this and this needing a dps for this and this:)
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one funny thing..I'm from Europe..and as I see little respons from those who disagree with me on this topic..hmm why?--->..americans are sleeping now.--->.THAT concludes: Most of those who dont mind player moderation are americans;) Hmm does this tell us anything? ;)
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one funny thing..I'm from Europe..and as I see little respons from those who disagree with me on this topic..hmm why?--->..americans are sleeping now.--->.THAT concludes: Most of those who dont mind player moderation are americans;) Hmm does this tell us anything? ;)
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but the power has already been abused imo! If you have to know every fact there is about everything in this world before you can discuss it you will probably be as silent as a rock. This is not a discussion about that particular kick....its about the whole concept of player made LFG channels and moderation of such.
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I'm from Europe.
 
I think moderation is a very important aspect of player run channels. You don't know the circumstances behind the moderation, you just think people are power tripping when they're not.
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I think player run "public-channels" should be dis-allowed by Carbine:) I also think moderation IS important..but ONLY by Carbine! 
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