105591-everything-wrong-with-this-game-in-a-nutshell

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Quite frankly I love this game, it is challenging and fun and keeps me entertained.  I am not even raiding yet, still working on attunement.  I keep seeing post about what is wrong with this game and its attunement, raiding or whatever, but none of that is what is wrong with this game.  What is wrong, prepare to have your mind blown, is:
 
Carbine did not prepare itself for the fact that the mmo playerbase over the last ten years have turned into instant gratification, easy mode players that don't want a challenge.  I have known this for years and it is one reason I pretty much gave up on mmos until this one came out, nearly didn't buy this one either because of this issue.  Carbine wanted a hardcore game and though mmo players would want this and they do as long as that hardcore means they can down the boss the first time.  Even supposed hardcore wow raiders are no longer hardcore, matter of fact using the word hardcore and wow raids in the same sentence should be illegal.  Wow has pussified the mmo playerbase into whiny little schoolgirl emo kids that cant handle being told no.  Just look at what most of the complaints are in gd, attunements are too hard, loot is too hard to get, its too hard to get loot with good runeslots, its too hard to do dungeons, its too hard to do raids, its too hard to get people attuned.  It is always too hard. 
 
Not to say this game does not have problems, but no game ever produced never has problems.  Take wow for instance, wow back in vanilla would not be the juggernaut it is today if the current crop of mmo players were playing.  They don't have the patience to work at something not to wait for bug fixes.  Wow still has bugs to this day, but the content is so easy so nobody minds.  Wow is only successful because of us old heads that were willing to wait and stick it out for a better game, and they provided that for a while then they made a business decision to kill the mmo by turning into Oprah, everyone gets epics for free. 
 
However there are some things that can be done to alleviate some of these problems.
 
Make attunement account bound, once you get it done, all of your characters have it done.
 
Add 10 minutes to the timers for silver, I know it isn't really required but it will help people get their attunement done so they can be destroyed in raids.
 
More meaningful solo content that is not just dailies.  I know they are putting out rapid content updates but there needs to be some solo meaningful content in there not just dailies. 
 
Probably could add a few more but that is just off the top of my head.	
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			The total time through the console-game aspect of leveling is like 40-50 hours.  I'd say they prepared themselves, and the game, pretty well for the "instant gratification" crowd.  Too well, actually.  Problem is that crowd is never satisfied, ever.	
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pretty much spot on I think.
 
while they did bring gaming more mainstream, that is also what is wrong with gaming today. most "great" or iconic games from 10 years ago, wouldnt last 6 months today.
 
unfortunately, I dont think there is an "easy fix"	
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Hmm, I really hate the term "hardcore" and "casual", there are simply players. And I'm really getting sick of people saying that the game is "hardcore", for one, it's no dark souls mmo. Give me a break. Dodge, shoot, interupt, it only takes coordination.  It's just got a bad end game system and the content isn't worthwhile atm. The game isn't hugely difficult, the problem is they had "good" content, and then added a bunch of unneeded layers in order to gate and filter the content, so it lasts for several months; like using the same amount of butter over too many pieces of toast.There shouldn't be timers in Dungeons, there just shouldn't. It's dumb. Specially not as a means of beefing endgame content. It's the same dungeons for the most part, but the "vet" part is timers and a boost in damage. Aside from the boost in damage,... So hardcare *eye roll*
 
Their system sucks. It's that simple. And they seem to have no idea how to balance casual and hardcore in a game. I despise LFR, but if LFR brought in more "casual" players to play with, I'd be for it. If a garunteed crap epic drop in dungeons would bring players back, I'd be for it.You can tier the content in a much more manageable way that doesn't divide the players and create a complete toxic environment. 	
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More meaningful solo content that is not just dailies.  I know they are putting out rapid content updates but there needs to be some solo meaningful content in there not just dailies. 
 
 
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The total time through the console-game aspect of leveling is like 40-50 hours.  I'd say they prepared themselves, and the game, pretty well for the "instant gratification" crowd.  Too well, actually.  Problem is that crowd is never satisfied, ever.
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There shouldn't be timers in Dungeons, there just shouldn't. It's dumb.
 
 
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unfortunately, I dont think there is an "easy fix"
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Easy? No. Fixable, yes, absolutely.
 
1. Drop the whole "hardcore or go home" mentality across the board. It's fine to HAVE hardcore content. Hell, it's fine to have content that IS hard and only 10% of the player base will ever see. That is FINE. Continue rubbing that in the faces of the remain 90% at your own peril. This game (NO GAME) can survive long with only 5-10% of it's original player base.
 
2. Make Dungeons and Adventures a little less punishing - and make versions with *cupcake* training wheels. Why don't I do dungeons and adventures? No time to learn them in their current form. I can't see myself spending my limited play time doing death-runs for hours on end. Gimme a dang "easy mode" so I can see the content, learn the basics of the fight and gain some confidence. I don't need epic lewts for that level of content and don't expect any. Hell, I'd be happy if it gave just enough gold to pay for the repair bills.
 
3. God, get rid of the stupid timers. If raids don't have timers, neither should dungeons in order to "succeed" ... This is a game, not work. If I can't RELAX when I play, what is the freaking point? My wife only plays three days a week. Ya know why? "This game feels too much like work sometimes!" And that's just silly Challenges that make her feel like that.
 
4. Remove the fake time sinks and gated content. Ugh. Folks 150 Gems and people log off FOR THE WHOLE WEEK. That's wrong. That's terrible. That's the OPPOSITE of what an MMO is supposed to be. If people can't feel like they're progressing, even a little bit, on a daily basis, you have removed the impetus to play.
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I disagree, I actually like the timer. The attunement itself is long, they should of just made it: A.) get key B.) world bosses C.) Adventures Silver D.) Dungeons Silver and that's it. But still keep the timers, maybe do what OP said and add a little more to the silver timer requirement, but not get rid of the thing.
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Hmm, I really hate the term "hardcore" and "casual", there are simply players. And I'm really getting sick of people saying that the game is "hardcore", for one, it's no dark souls mmo. Give me a break. Dodge, shoot, interupt, it only takes coordination.  It's just got a bad end game system and the content isn't worthwhile atm. The game isn't hugely difficult, the problem is they had "good" content, and then added a bunch of unneeded layers in order to gate and filter the content, so it lasts for several months; like using the same amount of butter over too many pieces of toast.
 
There shouldn't be timers in Dungeons, there just shouldn't. It's dumb. Specially not as a means of beefing endgame content. It's the same dungeons for the most part, but the "vet" part is timers and a boost in damage. Aside from the boost in damage,... So hardcare *eye roll*
 
Their system sucks. It's that simple. And they seem to have no idea how to balance casual and hardcore in a game. I despise LFR, but if LFR brought in more "casual" players to play with, I'd be for it. If a garunteed crap epic drop in dungeons would bring players back, I'd be for it.
 
You can tier the content in a much more manageable way that doesn't divide the players and create a complete toxic environment.
 
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oh I never said it was unfixable at all. just half the armchair coders seem to think its just a matter of a line of code, change a variable and all done. bugless and fixed for them
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			If I had to be as succinct as possible I'd say Wildstar is Swotor 2.0, really awesome ideas, poor implementation and an unacceptable level of bugs. But with better graphics. And it's hardcore (which doesn't actually mean challenging, it means tedium and timesink apparently).	
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I pay those people no more mind than the screamers, whiners and doom-sayers.
 
Adults in the real world know these things take time.
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Easy? No. Fixable, yes, absolutely.
 
1. Drop the whole "hardcore or go home" mentality across the board. It's fine to HAVE hardcore content. Hell, it's fine to have content that IS hard and only 10% of the player base will ever see. That is FINE. Continue rubbing that in the faces of the remain 90% at your own peril. This game (NO GAME) can survive long with only 5-10% of it's original player base.
 
2. Make Dungeons and Adventures a little less punishing - and make versions with *cupcake* training wheels. Why don't I do dungeons and adventures? No time to learn them in their current form. I can't see myself spending my limited play time doing death-runs for hours on end. Gimme a dang "easy mode" so I can see the content, learn the basics of the fight and gain some confidence. I don't need epic lewts for that level of content and don't expect any. Hell, I'd be happy if it gave just enough gold to pay for the repair bills.
 
3. God, get rid of the stupid timers. If raids don't have timers, neither should dungeons in order to "succeed" ... This is a game, not work. If I can't RELAX when I play, what is the freaking point? My wife only plays three days a week. Ya know why? "This game feels too much like work sometimes!" And that's just silly Challenges that make her feel like that.
 
4. Remove the fake time sinks and gated content. Ugh. Folks 150 Gems and people log off FOR THE WHOLE WEEK. That's wrong. That's terrible. That's the OPPOSITE of what an MMO is supposed to be. If people can't feel like they're progressing, even a little bit, on a daily basis, you have removed the impetus to play.
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Dungeons are not the endgame content, and yet, they frustrate people enough to where most will never see the endgame content
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Ok, I'm not an MMORPGer, new scene really for me, so I've always thought everything after you finish the questing/story and maxed level is considered end game content:
 
Dailies, Vet Dungeons, Vet Adventures, Rated PvPing, Warplots and Raids.
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			Your title lies. That was not a nutshell.	
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I agree with the OP, absolutely. 
 
If I could play this game all day, I would.  If there is a sugar momma out there, hook me up :)  In vanilla WoW I was able to play 5+ hours a day and all weekend long most weekends :(  Not anymore...
 
Unfortunately, these days I have to work and maintain a life outside of Wildstar which limits my time to an hour or two a day, a few more on the weekends.  However, I don't want the content to be simplified.. please don't.   That said, I'd still like to have the possibility of completing raids and content knowing I can't sit in front of the computer for four hour stretches.  Balance I guess?	
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You're right, this post is everything wrong with this game in a nutshell. Calling out your fellow players as 'instant gratification, easy mode [...] that don't want a challenge'? Sure, let's continue to fail to see beyond our own noses, blame the community, and wonder why the heck its dwindling.
 
Here's a thought, instead of whining about entitlement, maybe we should realize its 2014, the MMO market's bigger than it ever was during vanilla, and the collective experience of MMO gamers over that past decade has left us knowing bullshit when we see it. Maybe if we gave other gamers reasons to stick around and dip their feet into raiding instead of whacking them with the attunement stick because Carbine needs enforced downtime to get the next raids ready it weeds out the bads. Maybe if we made content legitimately fun to re-do instead of turning it into a repetitive chore that turns into a cavalcade of 'silver or busts', guild hops, and raid drama. And, yes, we definitely need more than housing to keep the non-raiders out and about and in the open world.
 
And maybe, just maybe, the systems could be tweaked to focus on encouraging a community to build instead of somehow leaving everything to the raiding version of Lord of the Flies and hoping for the best.	
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Easy? No. Fixable, yes, absolutely.
 
1. Drop the whole "hardcore or go home" mentality across the board. It's fine to HAVE hardcore content. Hell, it's fine to have content that IS hard and only 10% of the player base will ever see. That is FINE. Continue rubbing that in the faces of the remain 90% at your own peril. This game (NO GAME) can survive long with only 5-10% of it's original player base.
 
2. Make Dungeons and Adventures a little less punishing - and make versions with *cupcake* training wheels. Why don't I do dungeons and adventures? No time to learn them in their current form. I can't see myself spending my limited play time doing death-runs for hours on end. Gimme a dang "easy mode" so I can see the content, learn the basics of the fight and gain some confidence. I don't need epic lewts for that level of content and don't expect any. Hell, I'd be happy if it gave just enough gold to pay for the repair bills.
 
3. God, get rid of the stupid timers. If raids don't have timers, neither should dungeons in order to "succeed" ... This is a game, not work. If I can't RELAX when I play, what is the freaking point? My wife only plays three days a week. Ya know why? "This game feels too much like work sometimes!" And that's just silly Challenges that make her feel like that.
 
4. Remove the fake time sinks and gated content. Ugh. Folks 150 Gems and people log off FOR THE WHOLE WEEK. That's wrong. That's terrible. That's the OPPOSITE of what an MMO is supposed to be. If people can't feel like they're progressing, even a little bit, on a daily basis, you have removed the impetus to play.
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^^This. Couldn't have put it better myself.
 
I don't mind there being hardcore content that only a small percentage of the players will ever see. But there MUST be substantial and enjoyable content for everyone else or the game will quite simply shrivel up and die. A few adventures, dailies, housing and some poorly balanced PvP does not cut it as alternatives to raiding.
 
The trouble is, far too much of the endgame content is interwoven with the attunement process. So even if you don't intend to raid, you're still getting in the way of raiders and their precious progression. So there's not really a relaxed and tolerant environment to learn dungeons etc. If there's a toxic group environment players start to stay away from that content, get fed up with the scraps that are otherwise available and drift from the game.
 
Raiding doesn't need to be made easier or more accessible, but there does need to be some more alternatives. Even raiders don't want to raid constantly and from what I've seen said on these forums, a lot of raiders only log on for their scheduled raids now and don't do anything else in the game. That can't be healthy for the future of the game either.
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Easy? No. Fixable, yes, absolutely.
 
1. Drop the whole "hardcore or go home" mentality across the board. It's fine to HAVE hardcore content. Hell, it's fine to have content that IS hard and only 10% of the player base will ever see. That is FINE. Continue rubbing that in the faces of the remain 90% at your own peril. This game (NO GAME) can survive long with only 5-10% of it's original player base.
 
2. Make Dungeons and Adventures a little less punishing - and make versions with *cupcake* training wheels. Why don't I do dungeons and adventures? No time to learn them in their current form. I can't see myself spending my limited play time doing death-runs for hours on end. Gimme a dang "easy mode" so I can see the content, learn the basics of the fight and gain some confidence. I don't need epic lewts for that level of content and don't expect any. Hell, I'd be happy if it gave just enough gold to pay for the repair bills.
 
3. God, get rid of the stupid timers. If raids don't have timers, neither should dungeons in order to "succeed" ... This is a game, not work. If I can't RELAX when I play, what is the freaking point? My wife only plays three days a week. Ya know why? "This game feels too much like work sometimes!" And that's just silly Challenges that make her feel like that.
 
4. Remove the fake time sinks and gated content. Ugh. Folks 150 Gems and people log off FOR THE WHOLE WEEK. That's wrong. That's terrible. That's the OPPOSITE of what an MMO is supposed to be. If people can't feel like they're progressing, even a little bit, on a daily basis, you have removed the impetus to play.
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I agree on some things to a degree and you have some points. Some fixes are easier than others, but I feel like some transitional fixes could be done on the side, like numerical changes(such as raising the gem cap)
 
1) I feel like this started as a kind of "jokey theme" that unfortunately came back to bite Carbine in the butt. While I took it as a joke in many cases, it translated to the players and well...can read some posts and see what I mean. It doesn't help though with some deflects from developers of it being that mentality either...
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			How are people who can't do the timers in dungeons going to be able to put together the coordination to do the second boss in GA?	
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well there's your problem...THE GAME IS IN A NUTSHELL.
 
...you're welcome!  :)	
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You're right, this post is everything wrong with this game in a nutshell. Calling out your fellow players as 'instant gratification, easy mode [...] that don't want a challenge'? Sure, let's continue to fail to see beyond our own noses, blame the community, and wonder why the heck its dwindling.
 
Here's a thought, instead of whining about entitlement, maybe we should realize its 2014, the MMO market's bigger than it ever was during vanilla, and the collective experience of MMO gamers over that past decade has left us knowing bullshit when we see it. Maybe if we gave other gamers reasons to stick around and dip their feet into raiding instead of whacking them with the attunement stick because Carbine needs enforced downtime to get the next raids ready it weeds out the bads. Maybe if we made content legitimately fun to re-do instead of turning it into a repetitive chore that turns into a cavalcade of 'silver or busts', guild hops, and raid drama. And, yes, we definitely need more than housing to keep the non-raiders out and about and in the open world.
 
And maybe, just maybe, the systems could be tweaked to focus on encouraging a community to build instead of somehow leaving everything to the raiding version of Lord of the Flies and hoping for the best.
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			Challenging is fine but a challenge should not equal being locked in front of a gate for weeks on end for elder gems. Or racing against the clock like a Chua spazzing over wasting time because they have more to do! More to do! Also, more to do!From my point of view, veteran adventures are fine. They are nowhere near as brutal as dungeons. As much as I hate to say it, dungeons should probably lose the timer and be toned down in difficulty. For those who want an actual "hardcore" challenge? Do what Blizzard did and create a "Challenge Mode" where you are going against the clock with a set item level, providing fancy aesthetic rewards at the end. WoW is THE MMO so they have GOT to be doing something right somewhere.The key, in my opinion, is to provide accessible content (without making is so easy you could do it blindfolded) with the option of making "hardcore" for those who want it that way.	
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How are people who can't do the timers in dungeons going to be able to put together the coordination to do the second boss in GA?
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If you love a game...
 
Never visit its forums.	
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Challenging is fine but a challenge should not equal being locked in front of a gate for weeks on end for elder gems. Or racing against the clock like a Chua spazzing over wasting time because they have more to do! More to do! Also, more to do!
 
From my point of view, veteran adventures are fine. They are nowhere near as brutal as dungeons. As much as I hate to say it, dungeons should probably lose the timer and be toned down in difficulty. For those who want an actual "hardcore" challenge? Do what Blizzard did and create a "Challenge Mode" where you are going against the clock with a set item level, providing fancy aesthetic rewards at the end. WoW is THE MMO so they have GOT to be doing something right somewhere.
 
The key, in my opinion, is to provide accessible content (without making is so easy you could do it blindfolded) with the option of making "hardcore" for those who want it that way.
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Probably because there is no time limit on boss attempts, and you're able to actually practice and progress.
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Is there a limit on how many times you can try a dungeon a day?
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The problem is you cant do that, you cant have hardcore content and some easy content, because then the casuals, bad players, whatever you want to call them would want the hardcore content dumbed down so they can do it too.  There just is no fix for this because some people want everything.  Which is what we are seeing now, people are mad because they want to raid but are not good enough at the game to get past the attunement. So we open up raiding for everyone and dumb it down for everyone then we make a hardcore mode for those that want hardcore.  What about gear though, if you have the same gear just better stats then the community is divided, if you have different gear then one side gets pissed because they cant get that gear so when does it end.  If you just keep the gear the same then everyone will just do normal because what is the point in making it harder on yourself for the same reward.  Simple answer is you cant.  There should only ever be one type of raid content, either you can hack it or you cant.  Wow decided to go uber casual with their raids, took out the challenge, carbine wanted to re add the challenge back to the mmo and make hard raids and hard content.  Wow might get more subs and make more money but as long as Carbine is fine with that then the rest of us should be also.  Wow already offers what most of you seek, why does Wildstar have to offer the same thing.  Why cant it be different without people getting mad at the difference.  So many players say they are tired of wow clones, but in reality every new game that comes out they want to turn it into Wow.
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Right, definitely the same thing. Wiping on a boss, everybody rebuffing and attempting again after a discussion (with no effect on reward), compared to, "Ermagerd, no gold, disband!"
Brilliant deduction.
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The mmo market might be bigger but overall it is filled with the same type of games and any game that strays outside of that norm has a really tough time.  Eve, Mortal online, swtor, tsw, wildstar, all these games tried to be a bit different than world of warcraft.  Eve is the only one that has steadily grown over the years until very recently.  Mortal wanted a hardcore sandbox but it failed in part because of horrible bugs but the second part is very few people want a challenge.  People can argue this any way they want to make themselves look better and blame it on a studio all they want but in truth mmo players just don't want a challenge anymore.  They want things handed to them easily and quickly.  There is nothing wrong with Carbines content except for some people just cant do it so they don't like it, it is too hard.  Not bad, too hard.
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Are you honestly going to compare pug dungeons to not pugged raids?
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Not sure that's a fair comparison either way...
You're comparing an entire instance to one boss and an environment that has a mechanical system for PUGing vs one that does no have a mechanical system for it.
 
A better comparison to me would be that BOTH raids and dungeons be timed. However...that doesn't happen...
 
Problem with the dungeon scene as well is that there is an actual overlap of two types conflicting. Non-raiders wouldn't give a rats ass about timers beyond the achievement of getting it, but raiders do care about getting silvers in dungeons. On paper the attunement works, but it lacks the forethought to take this into consideration that now you have the two conflciting parties in one pool which leads to frustration caked by other sources of frustration. I've seen a few guilds starting to slap on the "attunement required" thing now and so ideal guilds people would like to join they can't so...they try pugging and they're stuck with random players of all types of skill levels and interests...
 
It feels like the "gold or bust" situation where the initial design sounds great on paper, but in practice it causes more problems and sadly because it is after launch now some players are set into the mentality of "this is how it should be" even though MMOs are inherently constantly changing. It sucks to do things the "hard"(notice i put this in quotations) way and then someone else comes in and does it the "Easy" way after...
 
I've been there and seen it time and again, but in the long term it helps the community as a whole and makes the game more fun. I play MMOs because I like meeting new people and I like a game that changes as it develops, but what worries me is that if anything i get a sense of doubt in the ability to let the actual combat itself and the mechanics of the fights do their job in gating on shear difficulty itself.
			
				
	Edited August 4, 2014 by Typrop	
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It isn't. The MMO market has been shrinking for years.
 
 
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This attitude does nothing but continue to foster resentment. Mostly because you (and people like you) don't read through the entire thought process. Can you not take one look around and see that "Go Hardcore or Go Home" is literally running vast amounts of good players off, perhaps for good?
 
No one in this thread is saying to "dumb down" anything. And yet, you can't hear that. You only see "bads" crying for "easy mode" ... when not a soul has said such a thing. Yet, hear you are, regurgitating that nonsense like you actually have been following along.
 
Variable-difficulty content is absolutely possible within the framework of "hard" and "hardcore." With VERY few exceptions, no one learns difficult mechanics without trying and failing a few times. That is totally fine. We're good with trying, failing and learning. The problem though, is the initial "go gold or go home" bullcrap that RUINED this community in the days post-launch. Everyone who got lucky and did it in the first couple of weeks aren't doing it any more. Leaving those who are slower or came late to the party, to fend for yourself.
 
Say what you want to World of Warcraft, but dungeon content is accessible. It comes in all levels of difficulty - and players can learn on an easier mode before graduating to more challenging modes. Why is that so damn offensive to you people? Why can you not understand that people WANT to do the content, but under the current paradigm, they won't bother with the headache. Those same players could very well be the 'hardcore raiders' you need to round out your groups - but you'll never know, because you can't be bothered to help - and you sneer at the thought of "lesser players" and "bads" teaching themselves on less difficult versions of the same content.
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Not sure that's a fair comparison either way...
You're comparing an entire instance to one boss and an environment that has a mechanical system for PUGing vs one that does no have a mechanical system for it.
 
A better comparison to me would be that BOTH raids and dungeons be timed. However...that doesn't happen...
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Is this anecdotal or is there some source for this statement? My industry research leads to a different conclusion. Newzoo is a prominent name in the field.
 
According Newzoo's Global Games Market Report for 2013, there is a global Compound Average Growth Rate(CAGR) of 10.4% for MMO games on PC.
Console MMO gaming might not be growing that fast, but smartphone gaming is growing even faster. Some regions growing faster than others as well.
 
Might be interesting to see what 2014 numbers look like next year but predictions indicate steady growth through 2016. If you have good sources, please share.
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Raiders would cry :P
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Would be a lovely thing to me as it adds a new level of challenge for raiding and then it would be consistent.
 
So...something like i dunno STL is 40 minutes now?
Maybe make GA 200 minutes?(added an extra 40 minutes for wiggle room)
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Hmm, I really hate the term "hardcore" and "casual", there are simply players. And I'm really getting sick of people saying that the game is "hardcore", 
 
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The problem is you cant do that, you cant have hardcore content and some easy content, because then the casuals, bad players, whatever you want to call them would want the hardcore content dumbed down so they can do it too.  There just is no fix for this because some people want everything.  Which is what we are seeing now, people are mad because they want to raid but are not good enough at the game to get past the attunement. So we open up raiding for everyone and dumb it down for everyone then we make a hardcore mode for those that want hardcore.  What about gear though, if you have the same gear just better stats then the community is divided, if you have different gear then one side gets pissed because they cant get that gear so when does it end.  If you just keep the gear the same then everyone will just do normal because what is the point in making it harder on yourself for the same reward.  Simple answer is you cant.  There should only ever be one type of raid content, either you can hack it or you cant.  Wow decided to go uber casual with their raids, took out the challenge, carbine wanted to re add the challenge back to the mmo and make hard raids and hard content.  Wow might get more subs and make more money but as long as Carbine is fine with that then the rest of us should be also.  Wow already offers what most of you seek, why does Wildstar have to offer the same thing.  Why cant it be different without people getting mad at the difference.  So many players say they are tired of wow clones, but in reality every new game that comes out they want to turn it into Wow.
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You can be sick of the phrase all you want, but the game's videos literally use the term Hardcore as a catch phrase.  If people bought the game not liking "hardcore" then they should have checked into the game a bit more.
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While looking at your blockade of a post.. i realized your right.. we have to get rid of all casual players..their a bane to the mmo industry.. who needs them to pay the bills so people such as yourself can enlighten us with the great wall of text..
 
This isnt even about getting into raids its about players who arent going to raid not having really anything to do other than play sims with their plots and rehash boring dailies. FAce it cupcake the pop is dwindling people are concerned about the future of this game and your opninion is in outfield.. any questions?
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Easy? No. Fixable, yes, absolutely.
 
1. Drop the whole "hardcore or go home" mentality across the board. It's fine to HAVE hardcore content. Hell, it's fine to have content that IS hard and only 10% of the player base will ever see. That is FINE. Continue rubbing that in the faces of the remain 90% at your own peril. This game (NO GAME) can survive long with only 5-10% of it's original player base.
 
2. Make Dungeons and Adventures a little less punishing - and make versions with *cupcake* training wheels. Why don't I do dungeons and adventures? No time to learn them in their current form. I can't see myself spending my limited play time doing death-runs for hours on end. Gimme a dang "easy mode" so I can see the content, learn the basics of the fight and gain some confidence. I don't need epic lewts for that level of content and don't expect any. Hell, I'd be happy if it gave just enough gold to pay for the repair bills.
 
3. God, get rid of the stupid timers. If raids don't have timers, neither should dungeons in order to "succeed" ... This is a game, not work. If I can't RELAX when I play, what is the freaking point? My wife only plays three days a week. Ya know why? "This game feels too much like work sometimes!" And that's just silly Challenges that make her feel like that.
 
4. Remove the fake time sinks and gated content. Ugh. Folks 150 Gems and people log off FOR THE WHOLE WEEK. That's wrong. That's terrible. That's the OPPOSITE of what an MMO is supposed to be. If people can't feel like they're progressing, even a little bit, on a daily basis, you have removed the impetus to play.
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I like hardcore content, wildstar isn't hardcore. It's inconvenient. They never advertised that.
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/disagree  The timer makes you have to be almost perfect.  That's hardcore.  I don't necessarily agree a timer is necessary as I would prefer the bosses to be even more difficult with no timer, but it's a 5 man dungeon.  How much more could they possibly add to a 5 man dungeon?  
 
Took myself and a group of people that I slowly put together less than 2 weeks running mon-thurs for 2 hours a night to get fully attuned and it took me a total of 4 weeks to level and be fully attuned.  That's a little too fast for a game that has "attunement" in it.  WoW took much more than 4 weeks to get fully attuned to a raid back in the day and that's what Wildstar was trying to go back to.  The fact that they added 40 man raids proves that.  The only thing "inconvenient" these days is the fact that players want to hit max level and be raiding within 2-3 days of hitting max level.  If it's inconvenient for you that it takes you a while to get attuned, then yes this game is inconvenient.  To be able to get to the more difficult content, you have to be able to put in the time and effort, period.
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Fair enough, then why do they add a LFG system if it isn't meant to be pugged? That's a lot of people's point. It's not puggable right now.
 
I want a hardcore game too. But I also want people to play with. Whether they be "pvpers", "filthy casuals", or "hardcore raiders". Like I've said many times. I just want to play the game and I'm willing to give up a fraction of the content in order to get people into it.
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I like hardcore content, wildstar isn't hardcore. It's inconvenient. They never advertised that.
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I love how people try to sound tough and call people cupcakes while being cupcakes themselves.  Brilliant.  Btw nobody ever said get rid of casuals, just that the content doesn't have to cater to them.  Casuals are the only ones that think they are so important that all content must cater to them.  BTW I am casual but I like hard content and I can play a game for what it is, if I don't like it I can always leave without being a drama queen.  Carbine wants to remain a game that is hard and time consuming, they must be prepared to accept less subscribers.  I still think they need to make some meaningful solo casual content.
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			Agreed I knew what I was getting into and I agree that there needs to be some casual content, I just disagree that raids need to be made casual.  That ruins the game in another direction for many people.  Maybe not as many but the game still gets ruined for some people.	
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Lol a modern mmo being "hardcore" :P
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Now you sound much better.. im not against hard content either.. im a big supporter of it..but the game does need to keep and make players who cant do that content happy as well.. and not trhough nerfing but creating new content geared for them. Dailies and farming can only go so far with players and for a developer to expect them to spend good money on that is just insulting their intelligence.
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Meh, the last hardcore pvp game I played was EQ. The last hardcore PVE game I played was,... probably vanilla wow. Need that fire resist, brah!
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Pugging has many uses other than actually downing the content.  You can meet players from other servers that are actually good at the game and that are willing to group again after to try to make a static group since many servers don't have a ton of people actively pugging.  It's just a really nice way to meet other players.  You can invite people cross server to run dungeons together.  The issue is that people think that if they can't pug a particular dungeon with their current group that they have to leave and pug a whole new group of players.  
 
I took the best of my pugs and turned them into a 5 man.  3 of those 5 transfered to my server and we are starting our raid tonight.  This all started 3 weeks ago from that group of 5 and we have grown into a group of 22 with 19 full attuned right now.  I'd say that's pretty good progress for a bunch of "PUGs".
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Agreed I knew what I was getting into and I agree that there needs to be some casual content, I just disagree that raids need to be made casual.  That ruins the game in another direction for many people.  Maybe not as many but the game still gets ruined for some people.
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			The game seriously just needs to remove the timer/medal system from a prerequisite for loot and progression. It doesn't exist in raids, it shouldn't exist in dungeons. These features should be an added bonus for prestige or bragging rights, not a system of progression. If it takes me 10 minutes to kill a boss, and it takes junior 5 minutes to kill a boss. Sure, he should get a big shiny badge for being hardcore, but the content shouldn't be blocked because my guild died, my friends quit, etc, etc, etc. I'm just thankful I completed that crap before drop 2 hit.	
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Good thing no one is calling for raid nerfs, ain't it?
 
Of course, once again, you "hardcore uber-leets" refuse to read that part.
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Nobody is calling for them yet, but I guarantee you that these same people will be calling for them once they get past the attunement process.  You only hear from the naysayers when they are up to the point that they can be a naysayer.
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I get what you're saying, but there is another factor in all this. Some people are introverts, but want to play a social mmo. Some people aren't natural born leaders. Hell, some people would rather be coordinated and not coordinate.
 
So, I just don't really see how a game, mind you we are talking about a game, should need a person to develope personality skills beyond their means. People are different. The point of pugging, yes, it should allow you to meet people but it should also allow an environment that makes you want to continue playing. Not alter your existence, become a natural born leader, gather a group of the best you've seen, and then go experience wildstar content. All because of medals and timers.
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You shouldn't prevent a change that may help the game simply because you want to prevent something that may or may not happen. People like this game, they just want to be able to play it and right now, most people can't... even though MOST people are solo players.
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MMO group content is not for solo players.  Hence the name group content. 
 
My point about the future calls for raid nerfs was not to say not to change the current setup, but to say that no matter what Carbine does, those players will complain because they have nothing to do because it's too hard for their current needs.
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MMO group content is not for solo players?
 
Since when? Specific mechanics in all MMOs allow for grouping of solo players to down Group content.
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Lol what?  Solo players can't be in a group and be considered solo.  That literally makes no sense.  And I'm saying literally like Rob Lowe does on Parks and Recreation.
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MMO group content is not for solo players.  Hence the name group content. 
 
My point about the future calls for raid nerfs was not to say not to change the current setup, but to say that no matter what Carbine does, those players will complain because they have nothing to do because it's too hard for their current needs.
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			That's a big nutshell.	
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No, I don't disagree. But it should be accessible by players who aren't playing with friends. And yes, I also agree that this is a slippery slope we're discussing, but here's why I would rather them nerf dungeons, because I want people to play with and I enjoy the game. I'm more concerned with just being able to play the game with others than a nerf that may or may not come 6 months, maybe a year down the road.
 
(edit) Of course, I'll also admit, that my server is currently *cupcaked*. Maybe i would have a different opinion on a higher pop server, idk.
 
But hey, it's been a pleasant conversation. Nice to have actually discussed instead of arguing.
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The game seriously just needs to remove the timer/medal system from a prerequisite for loot and progression. It doesn't exist in raids, it shouldn't exist in dungeons. These features should be an added bonus for prestige or bragging rights, not a system of progression. If it takes me 10 minutes to kill a boss, and it takes junior 5 minutes to kill a boss. Sure, he should get a big shiny badge for being hardcore, but the content shouldn't be blocked because my guild died, my friends quit, etc, etc, etc. I'm just thankful I completed that crap before drop 2 hit.
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That's a big nutshell.
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I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. However the primary issue I feel causing most of the problem revolving around end-game is that right now in Wildstars current state:
 
Moving forward though, we have an issue of conflicting interests where you have put non-raiders and raiders in the same pool. Regardless of how you deal with PUGs this is just how things are where you have those who don't care about the raids and are fine with just doing the content on a bronze level(they do exist) and those who go to these dungeons and get frustrated sometimes at each other and at those not aiming for silver. You rarely see this come about in adventures because well...lets face it adventures are pretty easy to silver.
 
However like the "gold or bust" change it alleviated a lot of conflict between different approaches of those wanting to do the content for fun and those wanting to do it for gear. Attunement was no issue, but even when it was in that state people had a bit of a rough time attuning because those who were gear centric would opt to bust the group. Now we have that situation in dungeons with silvers, but soley on the premise of attunement this time around.
 
I understand what you're saying about people doing normals, but some love the little changes in mechanics boosting the challenges a tad in veterans. That pool  who just wants to run the dungeons for fun again are overlapped into this. STL i know people who love the veteran version more than the normal because of the little changes mechanically here and there, but they're forced into this rather...."toxic"(i cant think of a better word) environment on how things are setup.
 
With that said Carbine has said that they didn't like how the current attunement played out and would be doing it differently next time around. What that means I don't know and I doubt anyone else knows exactly, so..I'm going to leave that alone...but that tells me something isn't right about the attunement process as a whole.
 
Whether you're for or against it, something is bound to give, either the content outside needs more refinement and additions of content made...or the attunement eases up to relieve pressure in that area.	
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STL i know people who love the veteran version more than the normal because of the little changes mechanically here and there, but they're forced into this rather...."toxic"(i cant think of a better word) environment on how things are setup.
 
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This same "toxic" environment shows up in WoW as well when a raider comes into a PUG dungeon and wipes on an easy boss.  It's not the developer's fault, it's the players and the developer has no control over how people treat other people.  I've even been guilty in WoW of being a person that gets upset in a PUG dungeon and leaves because I don't want to stick it out with those players.  I'm way less likely to act that way in this game because I know how hard these dungeons are in comparison.  
 
I know I'm only one person, but I think I've seen a lot more attempts at a boss in this game in PUGs because people know how hard it is than the dungeons are in WoW.  What I mean is people choose to leave after a much longer amount of time investment of struggling in this game than they do in WoW due to the nature of the dungeons.  The "toxic" part comes from those that have already accomplished the boss kills and get thrown into a random group of people who have not done these bosses before or it comes from a mindset that has been developed by Blizzard that dungeons should be faceroll easy.
 
Neither of these issues are caused by Carbine's current system.
 
Those of you who plan to PUG a silver run are making the mistake of assuming that the larger portion of the player base has downed all of the bosses many times which simply isn't true.  Silver dungeon PUGs will be something that can be accomplished 1/100 PUGs right now, but more like 10/100 can do in a few months from now.  Either way, PUGs should be used as a means to an end, not an end.  
 
For example, running a PUG to learn all the boss fights and planning to be in it for a long time is a reasonable assumption.  You should also be taking the opportunity to befriend people cross server that did a good job in this PUG run so you can group with them again instead of having to continue to PUG random people every time.  Some would say, "I don't want to be social."  FINE! Don't be social, add them to your friend list and only talk to them when you want to run a dungeon.
 
Running a PUG with the expectation of getting a silver is a very unlikely thing to achieve.
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I have a lot of issues with the game that have been brought up in this thread. One of them is the bill of goods I was sold when I got the game about there being plenty to do at the endgame if "hardcore" raiding wasn't your thing. When they released the video for raids screaming hardcore all over the place I really had to ask myself if this was the game for me after all. I'm a middle aged man with a life and responsibilities and I can't pour all my time and efforts into succeeding in a game like I used to be able to years ago. But I kept reading about all the wonderful things you could do at 50 so I gave it a shot. At 50, I'm not all that impressed.
 
Housing is pretty neat, but honestly, if I want to play with housing I'll buy Sims. Adventures are a neat idea but they ended up being exactly what I thought they would. As soon as I join one I'm told exactly which choice to make and we hustle our way to get gold and if that doesn't look like it'll happen everyone leaves. This does not make for a fun or relaxing evening. 
 
In some ways, I've just come to accept that this is MMO gaming in a post WoW world. Before WoW, a Wildstar could have strictly been for hardcore players and be considered a success with a few hundred thousand subscribers. These days, if you aren't breaking subs into the millions you're considered a failure. People finance these games thinking "look at Blizzard! Millions of subscribers! We should just copy their formula, re-skin it with a different property, and everyone will flock to it." What they don't understand is that WoW's success came from changing things that came before that people hated. When I played EQ, I remember hunting a couple of mobs then sitting and waiting 15 or so minutes to meditate to get enough mana to kill a mob and repeat. There is nothing worse that staring at your spellbook to get the resources to play. WoW changed that by adding in food and water between fights cutting downtime to nothing. Things like this is what built that success but with that success not enough studios are willing to break the mold in order to innovate in the field. They want millions of subscribers NOW. 
 
Carbine needs to understand that there has to be a balance between hardcore and casual players. You can cater to both and make the experience enjoyable. 	
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			Wow had it's issues when it first launch....Give it some time ..and all the bugs and such will go away..Once the programmers have less on their plates and fix everything..Myself I enjoy the game greatly...I play wow for 9 years and I can't seem to go back to wow now.	
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Wow had it's issues when it first launch....Give it some time ..and all the bugs and such will go away..Once the programmers have less on their plates and fix everything..Myself I enjoy the game greatly...I play wow for 9 years and I can't seem to go back to wow now.
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The problem being for a lot of players, once you hit 50, the way you "give it time" in its current state is to stop paying for it, stop logging in, and every so often check out a press release to see what's going on with Wildstar these days.
 
The fact Evindra exists for folks like me is pretty much the reason I still log in. Gotta rack up a few plat every month to pay for my stories.
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You know, in my opinion, the main problem in dungeons is that you get punished for learning.
I had a few awesome pugs where one or two people were totally new to all this stuff and we wiped a few times because they needed time to adapt to the tactics. And they did, after a pull or two, but we lost time doing this. That meant no silver or gold.
So you basically get punished for learning.
Why don't make it an enabled challenge to get the timers on, with some additional optional rewards? That way people can learn, try the "hardcoreness" on their hides and still get some sense of achievments, instead of "Ah, whatever, why should I try if we already wasted 10 minutes from the timer". And the people who want the challenge are free to enable the timer and get some cute stuff like costumes, dyes and other stuff.	
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You know, in my opinion, the main problem in dungeons is that you get punished for learning.
I had a few awesome pugs where one or two people were totally new to all this stuff and we wiped a few times because they needed time to adapt to the tactics. And they did, after a pull or two, but we lost time doing this. That meant no silver or gold.
So you basically get punished for learning.
Why don't make it an enabled challenge to get the timers on, with some additional optional rewards? That way people can learn, try the "hardcoreness" on their hides and still get some sense of achievments, instead of "Ah, whatever, why should I try if we already wasted 10 minutes from the timer". And the people who want the challenge are free to enable the timer and get some cute stuff like costumes, dyes and other stuff.
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To get back to the OP's post,
 
{| class="blockquote"
 What is wrong, prepare to have your mind blown, is:
 
Carbine did not prepare itself for the fact that the mmo playerbase over the last ten years have turned into instant gratification, easy mode players that don't want a challenge.  I have known this for years and it is one reason I pretty much gave up on mmos until this one came out, nearly didn't buy this one either because of this issue.  Carbine wanted a hardcore game and though mmo players would want this and they do as long as that hardcore means they can down the boss the first time.  Even supposed hardcore wow raiders are no longer hardcore, matter of fact using the word hardcore and wow raids in the same sentence should be illegal.  Wow has pussified the mmo playerbase into whiny little schoolgirl emo kids that cant handle being told no.  Just look at what most of the complaints are in gd, attunements are too hard, loot is too hard to get, its too hard to get loot with good runeslots, its too hard to do dungeons, its too hard to do raids, its too hard to get people attuned.  It is always too hard.
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To get back to the OP's post,
 
 
Well, yeah, there are certainly a fair number of people who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. And they certainly do have a sense of entitlement, although perhaps calling them "whiny little schoolgirl emo kids that cant[sic] handle being told no" is engaging in just a teeny bit of hyperbole.
 
To be fair, there are also a number of people who have so much free time that they simply cannot imagine a world in which people cannot log into a video game every day and spend 10-16 hours there. And they also have a sense of entitlement, as in "I have played a video game so intensively that I am entitled to treat everyone with jobs, kids, and/or other interests/responsibilities with absolute contempt, as if somehow their opinions and interests are simply insignificant compared to my own".
 
There aren't as many of these people in the second group, because most people don't have that much free time that they're able/willing to commit to a video game, but they seem more numerous than they are because they have a lot of time to go to gaming forums and make their opinions known. Often loudly and scornfully.
 
So yeah, the biggest problem in Wildstar, as is the case in every MMO, is the players. Too many of them just don't seem to respect each other's interests and circumstances. You hit the nail on the head there, but in a much more ironic way than I think you intended.
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Wow had it's issues when it first launch....Give it some time ..and all the bugs and such will go away..Once the programmers have less on their plates and fix everything..Myself I enjoy the game greatly...I play wow for 9 years and I can't seem to go back to wow now.
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As much as I respect Carbines "hardcore or stay away" approach to the game, I think they completely misjudged the current player base of MMO's.
Or maybe it is really their intention to have a low subscription base with only the hardcore players, instead of having 5-10 times more subscribers with a mix of casuals and hardcore.
 
It's absolutely fine having hardcore endgame content for only the few, but making leveling content like dungeons almost impossible for random groups to complete, that's a big mistake.
I normally like to do dungeons while leveling, but this game is the first where I've had to give up. I've never finished a single dungeon yet.
Some may argue "do it with friends/guildies", well by now, all my friends and people I knew coming from other games, have all left. I'm the only one still subscribed.
I'm in a guild, but they were all leveling much faster than me, so none were really there to do a dungeon at my level.
Why even have a feature like "dungeon finder", when it's just source of lots of frustration among new players :(
 
I don't like to pull the WoW card here, and no doubt much of the WoW content today is too easy (like dungeons), but they've managed to make the game for everyone, incl. hardcore raiders, which is probably why it's still so popular.
I'm not whining here, just a bit sad that Wildstar turned out this way. Myself and all I know, really wanted to like the game and to play it for a long time forward.
 
Since I'm the "last man standing", I'm also out when my sub runs out.
But I still hope Wildstar find a way to be more accessible to all and live on for a long time :)	
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See, that's exactly the problem. You're seeing things the wrong way.
How do you get punished? You get loot. You even get a chance on a epic since the medal change, where is the problem? Without taking attunement into account, you're just doing the dungeon, with no need to finish before deadline. For the attunement you need to fare a bit better. But NOTHING ELSE is dependent on the medals, except that you get extra loot with every medal you earn. For the attunement you need a silver medal, but that's only important to you if you intend to raid.
It comes down to your own/group's behaviour and expectations. People are getting the same things as you do, when they finish with gold. They just get three drops more of the same loot, nothing else. I seriously don't get the problem with that. It's not like you need to finish on gold, otherwise you'll be locked out of the dungeon for a month.
It makes it hard for me to take these "concerns" seriously, because in no way you are getting punished or discriminated and if you are not intending to raid, why do you even bother with the timers at all?
 
That's the same like it was with Adventures, where also a loud minority started screaming, that the Adventures are way too hard. I mean, seriously? You can even take a telegraph or two without dying and that's coming from a SS.
Most of my adventure runs where done with the lfg system and only 2 out of now 30+ runs were bronze (the reason why I know the exact number is because the groups really needed to mess up to get bronze). People will quickly adapt to the difficulty. Soon you'll be able to run dungeons with the lfg system too. At the beginning you just make an interrupt order and more is actually not needed. Except if someone fails at his interrupt, then you can assign a code
 
 
For all those complaining about the difficulty. Carbine is testing a new 5 man "introduction" dungeon as we speak on the PTR, to provide a smoother experience.
 
That Wildstar needs more content, I agree, but it got out with a lot of content to begin with and it got content coming on a monthly basis. Thing is that Carbine is trying to cater a lot of categories right now. We got PvE, we got PvP, we got Architects (there are some people in my fl that seriously are taking housing to another lvl), we got the Raiders, the laidback players and the daily stuff.
With every monthly patch Wildstar is trying to please another group of players. First Patch was for the daily PvE category, second was for the PvPs, the next one is a mix of Housing, PvE and daily PvE. You are being way too hard on them guys. They are really doing a lot, a lot more than WoW did back in my days until now. Patience and faith are the keywords.
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Hmm, I really hate the term "hardcore" and "casual", there are simply players. And I'm really getting sick of people saying that the game is "hardcore", for one, it's no dark souls mmo. Give me a break. Dodge, shoot, interupt, it only takes coordination.  It's just got a bad end game system and the content isn't worthwhile atm. The game isn't hugely difficult, the problem is they had "good" content, and then added a bunch of unneeded layers in order to gate and filter the content, so it lasts for several months; like using the same amount of butter over too many pieces of toast.
 
There shouldn't be timers in Dungeons, there just shouldn't. It's dumb. Specially not as a means of beefing endgame content. It's the same dungeons for the most part, but the "vet" part is timers and a boost in damage. Aside from the boost in damage,... So hardcare *eye roll*
 
Their system sucks. It's that simple. And they seem to have no idea how to balance casual and hardcore in a game. I despise LFR, but if LFR brought in more "casual" players to play with, I'd be for it. If a garunteed crap epic drop in dungeons would bring players back, I'd be for it.
 
You can tier the content in a much more manageable way that doesn't divide the players and create a complete toxic environment.
 
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