105139-why-didnt-you-guys-go-b2p

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I don't know if this question was ever asked but I have always wondered why your financial advisors never told you guys about the whole b2p mix.  think F2P would have worked well for you too but one of your head leaders at the time once spoke out that only a small percentage of players would be willing to dish out more than $100 per month as a way to keep you guys stay afloat. You guys stuck out with a sub fee but there are always people who are having a hard time trying to justify a monthly subscription just to play our game.
 
I personally think it would have worked out well for you. Your game is fantastic in a lot of ways. A solid housing system, dyeing system, costume system, combat system, story is fantastic, music is fantastic. There are a lot of positives. Endgame PVE and PVP will always be mixed for a lot of people.
 
However, for a game to have a sub fee, there is always some stupid psychological bullshit we consumers have to keep going through just to decide whether or not we would even play. "School is going to begin, should I pay a sub? I may just be playing for a couple hours per week. My wife can only play with me when she comes back from work, and that's very late and I rather play with her". These are just two examples, frequent however. A b2p game would have been simple. You buy the box, and you decide if you want to dish out more money on micro-transactions. I don't like to bring other games but Guild Wars 2 was possibly for me at least, one of the more successful MMOs that tried something substantially different, and succeeded. If you guys had similar systems to them, it would work extremely well for you.
 
I know my form of writing may not be the best introduction to this topic (very tired right now, 1:40 AM as I right this) but I just don't get it. You guys are dealing with a whole abundance of MMOs right now. Your game is unique but also has problems (which I am sure you are dealing with to treat as well) and then you have all these cosmetic systems that can turn any player addicted to it anytime.
 
Just wondering.	
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for many of us, it's easier to trust in a subscription model than a F2P or B2P model...
 
F2P usually means P2W ; spend some cash , or fall behind in item. The moment a cash shop come out where you can buy + stats item is the moment I leave.
 
B2P sounds a little bit better... of course, since we pay per new instance / content they put out, they'll feel forced to push more content, faster... but what about the quality of those? balance issue? bug fixes?...	
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			I'm fairly certain they're not going to adjust their business strategy based off this post.	
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			quite frankly, if you cannot afford the $0.50 per day for a monthly sub, content updates, fixes etc, then gaming in general probably isnt the right activity for these people.	
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quite frankly, if you cannot afford the $0.50 per day for a monthly sub, content updates, fixes etc, then gaming in general probably isnt the right activity for these people.
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You say that as if people don't play non-subscription games
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			GW2 & SWTOR are my b2p/f2p style mmo model experiences, I wouldn't touch a cash shop driven game again, not my style of gaming.	
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Why b2p when even 1 month of sub on top of purchase puts you infront??
 
Also Creed.
 
not CREDD.
 
 
Creed.	
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			This game has a subscription?  Weird, I keep playing for free, and it only cost me ~10 plat so far.	
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This game has a subscription?  Weird, I keep playing for free, and it only cost me ~10 plat so far.
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You say that as if people don't play non-subscription games
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This game is actually Play 2 Pay... On EU - Progenitor, I'm paying around 6,5P in middle of month, and by that playing for free.
Financiation runs over the C.R.E.D.D. buyers for real money, that offer these bought C.R.E.D.D.s in the auction house.
If you can't afford it, you've got to buy the playtime for yourself.
 
Why is that, you're asking?
Well, look at that game, and it's monthly updates...! These updates cost a lot of money! That frequent content update needs financiation, like the server maintenance does! That's why this game has monthly costs, unlike these free to play titles, that don't have these consistent monthly updates (and never had)!	
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GW2 & SWTOR are my b2p/f2p style mmo model experiences, I wouldn't touch a cash shop driven game again, not my style of gaming.
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Wildstar, on the other hand, is somewhere in the middle of the two. We still have to buy the original copy and we have to pay monthly, but at least we don't have to buy expansions and there is the option of buying CREDD with plat. Of course, it's a genius move on Carbine's part to make CREDD cost $20. So, even if most players here are playing the game "for free" using their plat, Carbine is actually making more money in the form of CREDD sales.
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quite frankly, if you cannot afford the $0.50 per day for a monthly sub, content updates, fixes etc, then gaming in general probably isnt the right activity for these people.
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I dont mind paying the subscription. I do mind the gated elder gems and rep vendor monthly grind. Expecting us to buy elder gem gear when rune slots pretty much have a 100% chance to screw you over is just not feasible when it takes a week+ to get the gems for it considering most of your points are practically required to go to AMP/APs anyways. Then, the month daily rep grind. At some point, you may as well be saying you're paying 15 bucks for those pants it took you a month of daily grinding to farm for but wait.. then you have to pay out the ass just to get the right rune slots on them anyways.. so maybe you're just screwed all around.
 
I have noticed a substantial increase in the amount of skilled players while running adventures/dungeons. My groups no longer get %$#@&@ owned right off the bat and usually go on to get gold if I'm pugging. I think either the people expecting F2P and used to easy games have given up or found something else to do in game, maybe even gotten better. Where am I going with this? I have no idea. It's 1AM why am I even awake.	
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Its not the price thats the problem, its the psychology behind it. $15 per month is not a whole lot of money...but would you pay for something you don't use, or you feel is overpriced? If you walked into a fast food restaurant, and they had "Free coke!" or "$1.50 for Pepsi", which would you choose? Sure, some people like Pepsi, and don't mind paying it, but the coke is still free. Unless you're heavily dedicated to Pepsi, its hard to rationalize the expendature of money, when you have alternatives, or are not even sure if you'll drink the whole thing. Sure, the Coke is only free because they hope you'll buy a burger and fries, but you could just enjoy your nice beverage instead, or even just buy a burger worth $1.50 anyway if you feel like it.
 
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			I see no problem with a subscription game.  Free to play games get a LOT higher annoyance factor just because there's little to no repercussions for most people.  Oh no, I'm banned...new account.  I do wish they would put their money where their mouth is and drop the up-front purchase fee though.  I'm not sure ANY games have gone that route though.  It'd just be nice to see the company have faith in its own product to the extent that continued subs were seen as the main source of income.	
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On the flipside, I abhor World of Warcraft's model. Buy the original copy, buy each expansion and still pay for a monthly subscription. Having to buy expansions on top of the monthly is what drove me and my friends to quit WoW.
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I don't know if this question was ever asked but I have always wondered why your financial advisors never told you guys about the whole b2p mix.  think F2P would have worked well for you too but one of your head leaders at the time once spoke out that only a small percentage of players would be willing to dish out more than $100 per month as a way to keep you guys stay afloat. You guys stuck out with a sub fee but there are always people who are having a hard time trying to justify a monthly subscription just to play our game.
 
I personally think it would have worked out well for you. Your game is fantastic in a lot of ways. A solid housing system, dyeing system, costume system, combat system, story is fantastic, music is fantastic. There are a lot of positives. Endgame PVE and PVP will always be mixed for a lot of people.
 
However, for a game to have a sub fee, there is always some stupid psychological bullshit we consumers have to keep going through just to decide whether or not we would even play. "School is going to begin, should I pay a sub? I may just be playing for a couple hours per week. My wife can only play with me when she comes back from work, and that's very late and I rather play with her". These are just two examples, frequent however. A b2p game would have been simple. You buy the box, and you decide if you want to dish out more money on micro-transactions. I don't like to bring other games but Guild Wars 2 was possibly for me at least, one of the more successful MMOs that tried something substantially different, and succeeded. If you guys had similar systems to them, it would work extremely well for you.
 
I know my form of writing may not be the best introduction to this topic (very tired right now, 1:40 AM as I right this) but I just don't get it. You guys are dealing with a whole abundance of MMOs right now. Your game is unique but also has problems (which I am sure you are dealing with to treat as well) and then you have all these cosmetic systems that can turn any player addicted to it anytime.
 
Just wondering.
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I see no problem with a subscription game.  Free to play games get a LOT higher annoyance factor just because there's little to no repercussions for most people.  Oh no, I'm banned...new account.  I do wish they would put their money where their mouth is and drop the up-front purchase fee though.  I'm not sure ANY games have gone that route though.  It'd just be nice to see the company have faith in its own product to the extent that continued subs were seen as the main source of income.
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I am not certain but I feel like Carbine specifically designed this game for the people who were playing MMOs in a very hardcore way back in our late teens early twenties.
 
We're in our late twenties and early thirties now, and have jobs. Jobs mean money, which means we can pay for the game with a sub to 1) support Carbine and 2) to provide a higher quality game.
 
So yeah, just my guess.	
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			I think the point he's making is the game would have a lot more players if it was B2P.It worked out very well for GW2.  Supposedly the fastest selling MMO of all time with over 3 million copies sold in the first 9 months.GW2 cash shop is just a bunch of costume hats and XP boosters.  Not a single pay to win item in sight.  Also they basically do the credd thing except you don't need it to pay a sub.  You can grind in game gold and sell it for gems.  Gems is the cash shop currency.  So basically I played GW2 for a year.  Bought the same crap on the cash shop that people spend real money on and all I spent was some in game gold.GW2 monetization plan is almost perfect...  I'd urge someone to find a flaw in it.  You can buy gems with real money.  (Same as credd.)  Sell it in game for gold.  (Same as credd.)  Or vice versa. (Same as credd)The only difference is GW2 has a couple million more players than WS.  Not talking crap.  Just saying.  Gamers are content for other gamers in an MMO.  They're way more important than any NPCs.  It's 2014.  Sub games are going the way of the dodo. I think WS is great.  I'll continue to keep playing it.  It's too easy to get credd.  But try selling that idea that basically WS is F2P through grinding plat for credd to someone who's never played the game before.  It seems like an unnecessary system.  Credd is so easy to get I can't even understand why a single person has ever paid a sub in this game...  You can literally do your dailies for a week and a half and not even log in the game for the rest of the month and still have enough plat to buy a sub...	
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I think the point he's making is the game would have a lot more players if it was B2P.
 
It worked out very well for GW2.  Supposedly the fastest selling MMO of all time with over 3 million copies sold in the first 9 months.
 
 
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WoW and it's expansions count as an MMO right? 
Cataclysm sold 3.3 million copies in the first 24 hrs
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TBH, the price of a sub is minimal.
 
But, to address your request for B2P, with CREDD it's sorta kinda like that?
 
So earn some CREDD and you won't have to worry about the price of a sub.
 
Cheers!!	
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I prefer sub based games for the community and because if nothing else...level playing field.
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You mean how I can spend 20 dollars and get enough platinum to pimp out my character with two full sets (dps / support) of optimal gear within fifteen minutes of selling that CREDD while others will have to grind for weeks to achieve the same?
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I'm fairly certain they're not going to adjust their business strategy based off this post.
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You mean how I can spend 20 dollars and get enough platinum to pimp out my character with two full sets (dps / support) of optimal gear within fifteen minutes of selling that CREDD while others will have to grind for weeks to achieve the same?
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I think the point he's making is the game would have a lot more players if it was B2P.
 
It worked out very well for GW2.  Supposedly the fastest selling MMO of all time with over 3 million copies sold in the first 9 months.
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			A subscription model is really the only way to derive predictable revenue and provide consistent quality content on a regular basis. B2P just doesn't work for players as demonstrated by the GW2 "monetization" plan.	
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It worked out very well for GW2.  Supposedly the fastest selling MMO of all time with over 3 million copies sold in the first 9 months.
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As usual hyperbole is serving no one except people looking to dismantle your argument (if it's valid, which I don't feel like getting into again). 
A CREDD (i.e. those 20 dollars) can be grinded out in a day right now, not weeks. You're being silly.  :rolleyes:
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 If yes, do share some of those secrets. 
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If this game had Micro-transactions, cash shop, or what ever, instead of a subscription, I wouldn't be playing it.
If there are people that don't want to pay monthly, there's CREDD(and right now is still a good time to get it, I haven't seen it go over 10p on my server :P)	
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quite frankly, if you cannot afford the $0.50 per day for a monthly sub, content updates, fixes etc, then gaming in general probably isnt the right activity for these people.
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Basically, this.
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 The average joe earns enough to buy CREDD for cash but probably doesn't know how to make MMO money. So if anything, this evens the playing field instead of skewing it.
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You mean how I can spend 20 dollars and get enough platinum to pimp out my character with two full sets (dps / support) of optimal gear within fifteen minutes of selling that CREDD while others will have to grind for weeks to achieve the same?
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I don't doubt that and while I like to achieve personal goals through actually playing the game (going to earn that spacious house one of these days...) as it simply feels better, I do appreciate the existence of CREDD as it allows me to be careless with repair bills, resurrecting at the spot and giving gold to friends. That being said, let's call a spade a spade. It's an advantage.
 
Being successful in real life shouldn't matter in the game because the very premise of games and sports is that may the one with more skill and dedication win. (A premise that gets ignored by far too many nowdays, in my opinion.) I don't get to buy Aberdeen Airport by slapping down twenty actual dollars on the Monopoly board. I shouldn't be able to buy the best gear or all the dyes or the most expensive housing items by dropping twenty actual dollars into Carbine's pocket.
 
Our forum discussions obviously won't influence this system now that it's out but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the consequences of CREDD. Some people get to play the game for free and that's wonderful while some people get to "cheat" a bit which is not so wonderful but at least allows for the former to happen.
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I think the point he's making is the game would have a lot more players if it was B2P.
 
It worked out very well for GW2.  Supposedly the fastest selling MMO of all time with over 3 million copies sold in the first 9 months.
 
GW2 cash shop is just a bunch of costume hats and XP boosters.  Not a single pay to win item in sight.  Also they basically do the credd thing except you don't need it to pay a sub.  You can grind in game gold and sell it for gems.  Gems is the cash shop currency.  So basically I played GW2 for a year.  Bought the same crap on the cash shop that people spend real money on and all I spent was some in game gold.
 
GW2 monetization plan is almost perfect...  I'd urge someone to find a flaw in it.  You can buy gems with real money.  (Same as credd.)  Sell it in game for gold.  (Same as credd.)  Or vice versa. (Same as credd)
 
The only difference is GW2 has a couple million more players than WS.  Not talking crap.  Just saying.  Gamers are content for other gamers in an MMO.  They're way more important than any NPCs.  It's 2014.  Sub games are going the way of the dodo. 
 
I think WS is great.  I'll continue to keep playing it.  It's too easy to get credd.  But try selling that idea that basically WS is F2P through grinding plat for credd to someone who's never played the game before.  It seems like an unnecessary system.  Credd is so easy to get I can't even understand why a single person has ever paid a sub in this game...  You can literally do your dailies for a week and a half and not even log in the game for the rest of the month and still have enough plat to buy a sub...
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A subscription model is really the only way to derive predictable revenue and provide consistent quality content on a regular basis. B2P just doesn't work for players as demonstrated by the GW2 "monetization" plan.
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I've played GW2 and it's in a horrible horrible condition.
 
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Agreed, but as I mentioned in one of my posts in this thread: This really couldn't be expected. GW1 was B2P and had gigantic, high quality expansions in acceptable intervals. Neither did the game die, nor did Arenanet go bankrupt, nor did they have to change their approach after the first expansion. So it was obviously a viable business model.
 
I have no idea what went wrong in GW2 apart from "we wanted to see if a different method can make more money".
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Agreed, but as I mentioned in one of my posts in this thread: This really couldn't be expected. GW1 was B2P and had gigantic, high quality expansions in acceptable intervals. Neither did the game die, nor did Arenanet go bankrupt, nor did they have to change their approach after the first expansion. So it was obviously a viable business model.
 
I have no idea what went wrong in GW2 apart from "we wanted to see if a different method can make more money".
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GW1 was a CORPG and not an MMO. The only places made for MMO were the towns. There are other CORPG B2P games out there that are doing good, but it's important to remember that those games were not Massively Multiplayer nor were they designed to be Massively Multiplayer, meaning that MMOs should be approached differently. That's why GW2 seemed so experimental.
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Its not the price thats the problem, its the psychology behind it. $15 per month is not a whole lot of money...but would you pay for something you don't use, or you feel is overpriced? If you walked into a fast food restaurant, and they had "Free coke!" or "$1.50 for Pepsi", which would you choose? Sure, some people like Pepsi, and don't mind paying it, but the coke is still free. Unless you're heavily dedicated to Pepsi, its hard to rationalize the expendature of money, when you have alternatives, or are not even sure if you'll drink the whole thing. Sure, the Coke is only free because they hope you'll buy a burger and fries, but you could just enjoy your nice beverage instead, or even just buy a burger worth $1.50 anyway if you feel like it.
 
Analogies aside, it really comes down to you can play a F2P game whenever you want, with no "up front" costs. There's literally nothing to lose by playing it. To play a P2P game, its $15. If you decide that you don't feel like it 2 days after, or get tired of the same problems a week in, you're out the $15. Not a huge amount of money, but its still essentially a waste of money. So you have to be sure you want to commit to something for a whole month, while F2P/B2P has no such barrier of entry.
 
 
This is...both true, and untrue. While the month to month is not quite so big, they do still generally have substantial updates. Rift is currently working on its second expansion, which is allegedly between the original game, and Storm Legion in size. SWTOR had "The Hutt Cartel", housing, multiplayer space battles, and multiple raids after going F2P. Neverwinter is currently gearing up for Module 4, which includes a whole new zone, character class, and playable race, on top of previous ones which had essentially the same number of additions. GW2 is adding new zones, and bi-weekly story zone updates with its season 2 update. While its less MMO, Warframe also adapted a F2P scheme, and has added multiple large additions to the game, uncluding new warframes, enemy types, zone types, etc.
 
F2P games are most indeed capable of releasing quality content. I will not argue the monitazation side of things, as yes, many have...less than perfect monetization of F2P. But F2P is far from a death toll for content, especially since many of the highest grossing games of 2013 were in fact, ones which were also F2P. If anything, I'd say its less content drops, but more "bigger" ones, as its the big ones which have the best chance of drawing people back to the game, with new classes/races, whole new zones, etc.
 
OT: Its likely just because thats what the developers are used to. As seen in the game, many things are "Old school", so they likely expected the market to be the same. Old school MMO players pay for an MMO like old school. The CREDD somewhat alleviates the problem of player retention, as the hardcore players will have excess money they can use to buy CREDD, while those with more money than sense can buy CREDD and trade for in game money. This gets them essentially a psuedo-F2P for those willing to tough it out and grind money, but only on the top end of things. Whether the sub model works out for them remains to be seen (Currently its working for ESO, which is sitting at ~700K subscribers, last I knew. And FFXIV has similar high subbers, so its possible to succeed with Subs still.), but it was likely just because it was how it was done before, and used to work to...some degree, anyhow. Don't expect anything in the short term, as far as possible B2P/F2P goes, it'll probably be at least a year from launch before we truly hear how Wildstar has really "done" in the long run, and how its gonna go from the future on.
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I don't doubt that and while I like to achieve personal goals through actually playing the game (going to earn that spacious house one of these days...) as it simply feels better, I do appreciate the existence of CREDD as it allows me to be careless with repair bills, resurrecting at the spot and giving gold to friends. That being said, let's call a spade a spade. It's an advantage.
 
Being successful in real life shouldn't matter in the game because the very premise of games and sports is that may the one with more skill and dedication win. (A premise that gets ignored by far too many nowdays, in my opinion.) I don't get to buy Aberdeen Airport by slapping down twenty actual dollars on the Monopoly board. I shouldn't be able to buy the best gear or all the dyes or the most expensive housing items by dropping twenty actual dollars into Carbine's pocket.
 
Our forum discussions obviously won't influence this system now that it's out but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the consequences of CREDD. Some people get to play the game for free and that's wonderful while some people get to "cheat" a bit which is not so wonderful but at least allows for the former to happen.
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But it's perfectly fine if you are "given" said money (with possibly other forms of payments or stipulations)?
 
I have never understood why giving someone in-game money is perfectly fine and fair but selling it for RL money is not. And so far I have not seen any explanation that has convinced to me to treat them differently, mainly because they center around that you didn't "earn" the game currency you bought for RL money. Well, to me being given game currency or buying it are on the same level of "earned".
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It's not that one is more fair than the other, it's that one is a charity while the other is a transaction. :)
 
In-game transactions are normally closed. Gold for item or some sort of in-game service. If you allow things outside of the game to enter the trade then that radically changes the worth of the in-game commodities and devalues both time and effort invested into the game. Five hours spent at your job will always be more valuable in-game than five hours spent actually playing the game. That's logical but it harms the integrity of a level playing field. A subscription is meant to eradicate that problem. Not that it completely can (there will always be gold sellers) but it will attempt to do it. When you give away something you yourself have earned for no recompense then none of that happens. The receiver didn't earn any of it but that hasn't changed the value of the gifted commodities.
 
The only way gifting could devalue time and effort invested into the game is if you can consistently gift an infinite amount of a given currency or service - be it platinum, some item, a boss kill or PvP rating. That isn't possible unless you hack the game.
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It's not that one is more fair than the other, it's that one is a charity while the other is a transaction. :)
 
In-game transactions are normally closed. Gold for item or some sort of in-game service. If you allow things outside of the game to enter the trade then that radically changes the worth of the in-game commodities and devalues both time and effort invested into the game. Five hours spent at your job will always be more valuable in-game than five hours spent actually playing the game. That's logical but it harms the integrity of a level playing field. A subscription is meant to eradicate that problem. Not that it completely can (there will always be gold sellers) but it will attempt to do it. When you give away something you yourself have earned for no recompense then none of that happens. The receiver didn't earn any of it but that hasn't changed the value of the gifted commodities.
 
The only way gifting could devalue time and effort invested into the game is if you can consistently gift an infinite amount of a given currency or service - be it platinum, some item, a boss kill or PvP rating. That isn't possible unless you hack the game.
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Thanks for paying my sub for a month.  Also, yes that is still a level playing field.  That equipment didn't magic itself out of a hat, someone farmed it and put it up for sale.  If you're trying to claim that buying off the AH is in some way pay to win, you're failing hard.  I got lucky on one of my whole 9 boom boxes and made almost 10 plat.  You could use that same argument.
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Scarlet Briar happened. Terrible content choice that they went all-in on for over a year.
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I've played GW2 and it's in a horrible horrible condition.
 
1. They're only counting the copies sold. Even with megaservers the game felt pretty empty when I left it
2. Because of the whole gems to gold deal over the years the ability to get money was just nerfed nerfed and nerfed. You want to do world bosses? Oh I'm sorry, you'll only get the reward once a day per account and they're also on schedule now, so if you can't log in at this particular time, bad luck, they will only go up twice a day! Oh you liked running dungeons? Oh I'm sorry the reward is now once a day per account! Oh you want to participate in the newest update? Pay gold to spawn enemies to kill. Oh right, we require perfect coordination, but due to megaservers 70% of all people on this map will not even speak your language!
3. Because of the B2P model barely any permanent content has been released during the years. 2 months in here we have a new permanent zone, more story and a new battleground. That's almost more than what GW2 gave out in 2 years. "We released a new mini dungeon! Hurry up because it will be gone in a week!"
 
There are B2P and F2P games out there. Some of them are quite good. By all means people go and play them. I had a bad experience with those and wouldn't exactly want to be playing a B2P/F2P MMO right now.
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This game has a subscription?  Weird, I keep playing for free, and it only cost me ~10 plat so far.
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 	WHY DIDN'T YOU GUYS GO B2P?
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Nothing went wrong in GW2...
 
Why do people assume because they quit a game is dead?...  rofl
 
The maps are still full to the brim and still queues for WvW.
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This was the entire argument for removing Diablo 3's auction house.  If you can pay for gold with RL money it's pay2win.  It's the same as playing WoW and buying asian gold and going on the AH buying BoE raid epics.
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There's a new event out isn't there?  I come back for about a week or two every month or so, always fun, it's about time too.
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hahahahaha @ empty
 
You can play GW2 2 years after launch and see 10x more people leveling 1-80 than you will in WS which is one of the most hyped MMOs in the last decade 1-50.
 
GW2 WvW.  Constant queue to get in during peak hours.
 
WS Warplots.  You can sit in queue for 24 hours in north america and not see one game pop.
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