113702-dear-wildstar-developers

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Dear Sirs,
     I want to begin by saying i like Wildstar.  I believe in Wildstar.  I desperately want to see this game succeed. With this in mind, based on the rapidly dwindling guild member explanations as they leave the game (we at one time had 150 members and now are down to roughly 8) here are some things that were pointed out as reasons for leaving.
 
1. No story.   You have this great concept, a terrific cast of characters, and then after Gallows, nothing.  Not really.  There's nothing to hold the interest of the player that's playing solo.  The reality is the game is a grind to endgame content. You begin with Deadeye trying to save his wife and then after her death he shifts to trying to save the fledgling community of Tremor Ridge. After saving tremor ridge you go to gallows where law and order is under siege from various bandits and the lone judge/lawman that is trying to maintain order.  So far so good.  Then nothing.  XAS is nothing but a continuous set of orders to kill x amount of this creature or that one.  It turns into a grind.  First of all the Annihilator robot would be a huge advantage to either the exile or dominion side that gains control of it.  The story practically writes itself. Instead of run amok robots and juiced up wild life it should have been a race between Dominion and Exile forces to gain control.  You could have had Belle Walker wishing to prove herself to her father and the XAS as a whole that she is a capable explorer and to that end she comes up with a unique way to rest control of the Annihilator, but something goes wrong and to prevent the robot from falling into the Dominion hands the robot has to be destroyed.  Something along those lines.   When you get to Thayd, you could have a Dominion General that launches this attack or that attack that you must thwart, that eventually ends in assassinating the general. Maybe there's a traitor on the Exile side that must be uncovered.  Instead we are treated to a dozen kill 10 of these guys, gather 20 of that quest.  No real rhyme or reason.   Many players play solo or in small groups, but there isn't any real reason other than gaining money and levels.  This is so ten years ago.  
   You have a handful of really interesting races that have potentially great back stories, but we are given nothing but a paragraph about them at the start and few gather this or kill that with an minor explanation for the Mordesh missions.  You could have such great race based missions that cover the Mordesh school teacher that was launched into becoming a Mordesh operative after the contagion outbreak, watching their progression from tentative recruit to hero of their race.  The Granok that lost his family and ended up becoming a half ass mercenary, that eventually embraces the cause of the Exiles and the downfall of the Dominion. The young Draken that is on his path to full manhood.  The Aurin that struggles to overcome the destruction of her home world. There is a lot of great stuff there.
 
2. The best part of Wildstar so far IS the attunement process.  Most of us (in our guild at least) are basically playing the Attunement game.  We know we are never going to raid, but we are really enjoying the attunement process.  Its fun to try and get silver on this adventure or that dungeon.  Stop dumbing it down. the attunement process isn't the problem, as a matter of fact its the only reason what's left of my guild plays the game.  Its almost like a really cool scavenger hunt.
 
3. 40 man warplot.   Many people in my guild were stoked about warplots. I myself love the idea.  However very few people are going to be able to gather 40 people for a warplot.   I know I'll get blasted for saying that, by the 1% that can, but when you  want millions of players, over several servers to play this game, 40 is a very large number.  Hell on our best day we might get 40 people of varying levels on at one time. I think 12 level 50s have been the most we ever fielded, and based on other MMOs we've played, this is the norm.  I know there are raiding guilds that can field that many, but again they make up 1% of your customer base.   How about a scaled warplot queue 12-18, 19-27, 28-36, etc.   Smaller warplots with scaled back abilities, with scaled back rewards.  So the HARDCORE players can get what they want, and the less than HARDCORE can get a chance to play too. 
 
4. Crafting.   If you are an armor smith, once you master a recipe, you can make that item, but if you are a Technologist you have to try and master a recipe every time you make it.   There is no way to make multiple units. There is no way to craft gear with specific rune slots (some thought that was the point of catalyst).  Cooking was not only a nightmare hobby, but after struggling through the mastery level (at great personal cost to their sanity) the stuff they could make wasn't any better than what you could purchase at the nearest vendor.  Meat dropped rarely, but the recipes called for huge quantities of it.
 
There were other reasons for some, but those are the top four.  I personally was disappointed that after the hillarious promo videos, there were none in the game.  You guys have created some great characters, but we never see them in the game. The last of our guild is hoping that some miracle will turn this game around, but as I sit in the queue for an hour waiting for it to pop, mindlessly surfing a deserted Thayd, I worry that this game won't be here come Christmas.   	
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			More on Warplots.   You need to think Guildwars.   12 players trying to battle 12 players.   Hell I'd still have most of the people in my guild if we could do that.  We'd be busy killing each other right now instead of me spending time here bitching.  	
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			Hmm.  Yes, Warplots seem to be hugely under utilized so far.  I love the concept, and I'd participate probably/maybe... I just feel like these should be drop in drop out persistent war zones.	
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I agree with all of these, with minor disagreements about the attunement phase. I'm all for attunements as they usually have a good story, make sense, and are a gateway to harder content. That being said, many of the steps are unnecessarily tedious, specifically the world boss step. The bosses are not difficult, in fact they are extremely dull, and with many guildmembers to attune, I've lost count on how many bosses I've killed now. Why 12? Why don't the bosses matter? This was the perfect opportunity to make world bosses feel important. And throughout the whole story, the 6 elements leading to the creation of the Genesis Prime has always been reinforced? Why not kill 6 world bosses, one for each element, to charge your key to get into the archives? It makes sense logically and from a story sense.
 
Cooking can go die in a fire. I hate cooking with a passion.
 
Warplots is being reduced from 40 players to 30, but I don't see why they didn't do just 20. I feel Carbine is focusing too much on larger numbers. 40 is so many people, it's hard to organize, it slows computers down with all the extra players and spells it has to render and calculate, and it just becomes a mess. I would love to try warplots, but as it stands now I just can't be bothered.	
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			I agree here and I think that's part of what we should cover in the Loremageddon thread that Pappy is running for a while. As of right now we want more lore and more back story and just hearing Pappy talk about more Voice over, more options, more interaction with NPCs in the Journey to Omni Core 1, makes me believe they're realizing that and moving towards the right direction and asking what the players want to see.EDIT: Not to mention if they had a major patch and went back and added some cutscenes and story points it would motivate people to make alts and refill the levelling zones again as well! The worst part of the game in my opinion is seeing these amazing animators and awesome art be pushed to the background when they could have more cutscenes and more awesome characters. Still though I hope they're working on that with the new moves in OmniCore1	
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			Lack of Multi-queue system kills warplots, no-one will waste their queue slot waiting for something that 'might' pop up, turning into a vicious circle.	
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Lack of Multi-queue system kills warplots, no-one will waste their queue slot waiting for something that 'might' pop up, turning into a vicious circle.
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			Nezzeraj.   WOW!  That is a great idea about the world bosses.   Give a backstory and a reason to kill the bosses as you charge your key.  I freakin love that idea.   Lots of MMOs have world bosses, but your idea about there being a reason for each world boss rocks.  Two thumbs up and slap on the butt!    	
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Nezzeraj.   WOW!  That is a great idea about the world bosses.   Give a backstory and a reason to kill the bosses as you charge your key.  I freakin love that idea.   Lots of MMOs have world bosses, but your idea about there being a reason for each world boss rocks.  Two thumbs up and slap on the butt!    
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Lack of Multi-queue system kills warplots, no-one will waste their queue slot waiting for something that 'might' pop up, turning into a vicious circle.
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Well that and you need 2 warplots to start a warplot match.  How many of them are there?  They take a lot of work and a lot of cooperation.  You need to at least have a guild building one.  If a thousand people queue, and only two guilds queue with their warplot, and both of those guilds have close to 40 people, those queues won't move.
 
There just aren't enough srs bsns PVP guilds out there banding together to make these things function.
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Sigh.  That makes it sound like there aren't enough people putting in the effort to make their own fun compared to people that want fun handed to them.  Common theme these days.
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Sigh.  That makes it sound like there aren't enough people putting in the effort to make their own fun compared to people that want fun handed to them.  Common theme these days.
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Vic, great point.  I hadn't thought about it, but you're right.  On most of the MMOs I've played the PVPers of our guild are usually the same 8 to 12 guys, they basically make up a sub guild. They are tight-nit group that disappear to one of the other TS channels for the rest of the day.  Ocassionally popping up to participate in dungeon or try and pug a guildy to fill a spot on the team, then quickly dissapear back to the world of PVP slaughter.  So a warplot with 40 people is asking quite a bit from real PVPers.   Your post explains why I have yet to find a warplot group.    
 
The second point you made is also a brain expander, you don't need 40 people, you actually need 80 people.   Great point. 	
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Many Many games use external tools for scheduling.....
WoW with raids
EvE with battles and fights.
 
 
 
Why WildStar not do same?
Sound more like people not want put some effort.
Is ideal for fansite and community building-	
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Sigh.  That makes it sound like there aren't enough people putting in the effort to make their own fun compared to people that want fun handed to them.  Common theme these days.
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Vic, great point.  I hadn't thought about it, but you're right.  On most of the MMOs I've played the PVPers of our guild are usually the same 8 to 12 guys, they basically make up a sub guild. They are tight-nit group that disappear to one of the other TS channels for the rest of the day.  Ocassionally popping up to participate in dungeon or try and pug a guildy to fill a spot on the team, then quickly dissapear back to the world of PVP slaughter.  So a warplot with 40 people is asking quite a bit from real PVPers.   Your post explains why I have yet to find a warplot group.    
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Many Many games use external tools for scheduling.....
WoW with raids
EvE with battles and fights.
 
 
 
Why WildStar not do same?
Sound more like people not want put some effort.
Is ideal for fansite and community building-
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Wow has an event calendar.
Eve is a sandbox and does not limit communication.
 
Both games are older; the third party tools grew out of necessity and were later included in some form.
 
I'm completely onboard with third party tools around emergent gameplay (GW2's GvG is a good example, GvG was player made, ultimately). But here is a game mode that simply doesn't work without scheduling, communication or visibility tools.
 
They made a Devspeak about the feature; it's not on players to augment it's failings to kickstart it, it's on Carbine.
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Sound more like people not want put some effort.
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This is kinda silly. Games are about fun, not effort, and while some kind of effort is usually required in MMOs for various things, organizing 80 people just for the chance to try something... that's absurd.
 
This is not a player problem, it's a developer problem. Seems to me Carbine expected this game to be way more popular than it is, which is normally fine, but is definitely not fine when you design core game systems around that expectation. :P
 
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It seems hard to condemn Carbine alone if players want to do the content but not build the warplot.
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Warplots don't necessarily seem unpopular, though.  Not only that, but MMORPGs definitely do require effort.  Warplots were advertised, at the outset, as built by players.  It seems hard to condemn Carbine alone if players want to do the content but not build the warplot.
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Ok, let's see if we can gel this down to the basics.
 
1. To have a warplot you need 80 people, two groups of 40.   While there might be 80 people that would like to participate in warplots, finding 40 people to build a warplot on each side is a bit daunting.  having a set of prebuilt warplots that can be massaged for each group so that warplots could be entered like a standard PVP match would help tremendously.
2. Why on earth in this day and age do we have to use a third party communications/scheduling system.  Look at LOTRO they have an in game voice chat system.  
3. Most computers crash hard with forty people blasting away with the accompanying effects.  Not everybody that wants to warplot has the system that can handle it.   I have a pretty robust computer, but it is by no means top of the line, and there are days (like the end of War of the Wilds) that my system slows down. 
4. The effort to enjoy the game is on the player, the effort to play the game is on the developer. 	
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4. The effort to enjoy the game is on the player, the effort to play the game is on the developer. 
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This is kinda silly. Games are about fun, not effort, and while some kind of effort is usually required in MMOs for various things, organizing 80 people just for the chance to try something... that's absurd.
 
This is not a player problem, it's a developer problem. Seems to me Carbine expected this game to be way more popular than it is, which is normally fine, but is definitely not fine when you design core game systems around that expectation. :P
 
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Many Many games use external tools for scheduling.....
WoW with raids
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Many Many games use external tools for scheduling.....
WoW with raids
EvE with battles and fights.
 
 
 
Why WildStar not do same?
Sound more like people not want put some effort.
Is ideal for fansite and community building-
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Players put in "effort" in games when they are incentivized to do so.  They do stuff that's either fun on its own, or that rewards them with things they can then use to go and do other fun stuff. The best game elements are both of these, of course -- intrinsically fun and also well-rewarded.  
 
It seems the Warplots weren't incentivized enough to make them attractive.  Since I don't PvP much except for the odd BG here and there, what kind of rewards could Carbine offer players to make them willing to go to the effort of putting together a Warplot if it's not fun enough to be worth it on its own?  
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Oh totatlly, I agree. It is ultimately up to the players to make the community
 
But I personally feel this could help Carbine flesh out the world a little bit
 
Having an ingame calender doesn't seem like too big of a request. Especially not if we all have Datacrons which are supposed to be basically future cell phones. They should have simple functions like managing dates and times.
 
And also, think of the lore building and role playing. I know you are into Roleplay Olivar. What if the calender system didn't have the Gregorian calender that we used, but a COMPLETELY NEW CALENDER BASED ON THE UNIVERSE OF WILDSTAR!!!
 
Imagine setting up a raid time for the third day in the Month of Dominus Everlasting. Or setting up a time to go kill world bosses during the Month of the Aborian Moon.
 
You'd still need fansites and community to tie all this to real life times, but talk about immersion and RP potential! Planning an Exile Warplot battle on the anniversary of the day the Gnox was invaded. A memorial service for the day Aboria was abandoned. Maybe even a fireworks and explosives heavy party for Mondo Zax's birthday! Man, that would be cool.
 
However, let me end this by saying I would consider this to be a low priority update. While it would be cool to see, I realize it is just a far off pipe dream. Still, because Wildstar is a new IP, there are lots of places Carbine can go with it. I would love to see what they come up with
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I don't think it'd helped by the state of PvP really...
 
I believe there might very well be or were players very geared toward doing Warplots, but due to the way things are may ahve felt the system would be more frustrating to do than fun? I only pvp casually so it's just a guess 
 
Something you guys should look at as well if you haven't seen it from a dev:
 
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Warplots revisions are currently in the works to revise both gameplay and queuing requirements.
 
Warplot Size and Queuing:
- Reducing team size requirements to 30.
- More queuing options for warplots. Players who are already a part of a Warparty will be able to queue as Mercs
- Mercenary only matches will be available (for example, if there are no warparties queued and 60 Mercs are queued, a merc only match will start)
 
Game Play Updates:
The concept of plug energy has been reworked so that maintenance cost will be the same for both teams regardless of plug load out. Energy can still be depleted through player kills, plug and generator destruction.
The game play is being revised and will introduce the concept of Nano-Pak linking and Plug Gating.
Warplot entrances will now be blocked by force fields and Nano-Pak linking will be required to enter the enemy warplot. Once three connecting Nano-Pak nodes are captured, barriers blocking entry into the enemy warplot will be removed.
 
Plug gating will prevent enemies from moving deeper into the enemy’s warplot until the plug structure unit is destroyed.
The flow for gaining access to the enemy generators will be as follows
 
Create a Nano-Pak link to gain access to both small warplot plugs of the enemy Warplot -> Destroy the small plug to gain access to the large plug -> Destroy the large plug to gain access to the generator
 
New Plugs:
New large plugs will be available that will provide plug counter play options.
 
Demolition Charge – This is a bomb that can be used on the plug structure units and generators to do large amounts of damage
Plug Bypass Tool – This can be applied to plug structure units to temporarily disable their benefits and bring down the force field blocking access to the next plug/generator
Sap Field – This can be planted on a structure unit or generator to do damage over time until it is disabled by the defending team.
 
These changes are currently in development and are targeted for drop 4/5
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I don't think it'd helped by the state of PvP really...
 
I believe there might very well be or were players very geared toward doing Warplots, but due to the way things are may ahve felt the system would be more frustrating to do than fun? I only pvp casually so it's just a guess 
 
Something you guys should look at as well if you haven't seen it from a dev:
 
 
The part I bolded and put in red I feel will help a lot toward getting people in general playing warplots...what details though I don't know beyond that...
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			As a huge fan of the Rainbow six series (yeah yeah I'm old) I really would like to see an option for smaller warplots say 12 vs 12.   First of all then my poor system would be able to handle it.  Secondly when you are in a small group like that, tactics play more of a part than pure brute force.  In the rainbow six world you would have two six man teams taking position, moving in group covering suspected ambush sites, each group working to take advantage of the other.  Think of the Halo PVP wargames.  Somebody mentioned a "Skirmish Plot"  I love this idea.   A warplot with a single power generator, a couple of traps / defenses, and very scaled back rewards when compared to an actual warplot.   Not only would this blow up as new PVP route, but it would be a training ground for those wishing to put together an actual warplot.  	
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Dear Sirs,
 I want to begin by saying i like Wildstar. I believe in Wildstar. I desperately want to see this game succeed. With this in mind, based on the rapidly dwindling guild member explanations as they leave the game (we at one time had 150 members and now are down to roughly 8) here are some things that were pointed out as reasons for leaving.
 
1. No story. You have this great concept, a terrific cast of characters, and then after Gallows, nothing. Not really. There's nothing to hold the interest of the player that's playing solo. The reality is the game is a grind to endgame content. You begin with Deadeye trying to save his wife and then after her death he shifts to trying to save the fledgling community of Tremor Ridge. After saving tremor ridge you go to gallows where law and order is under siege from various bandits and the lone judge/lawman that is trying to maintain order. So far so good. Then nothing. XAS is nothing but a continuous set of orders to kill x amount of this creature or that one. It turns into a grind. First of all the Annihilator robot would be a huge advantage to either the exile or dominion side that gains control of it. The story practically writes itself. Instead of run amok robots and juiced up wild life it should have been a race between Dominion and Exile forces to gain control. You could have had Belle Walker wishing to prove herself to her father and the XAS as a whole that she is a capable explorer and to that end she comes up with a unique way to rest control of the Annihilator, but something goes wrong and to prevent the robot from falling into the Dominion hands the robot has to be destroyed. Something along those lines. When you get to Thayd, you could have a Dominion General that launches this attack or that attack that you must thwart, that eventually ends in assassinating the general. Maybe there's a traitor on the Exile side that must be uncovered. Instead we are treated to a dozen kill 10 of these guys, gather 20 of that quest. No real rhyme or reason. Many players play solo or in small groups, but there isn't any real reason other than gaining money and levels. This is so ten years ago. 
 You have a handful of really interesting races that have potentially great back stories, but we are given nothing but a paragraph about them at the start and few gather this or kill that with an minor explanation for the Mordesh missions. You could have such great race based missions that cover the Mordesh school teacher that was launched into becoming a Mordesh operative after the contagion outbreak, watching their progression from tentative recruit to hero of their race. The Granok that lost his family and ended up becoming a half ass mercenary, that eventually embraces the cause of the Exiles and the downfall of the Dominion. The young Draken that is on his path to full manhood. The Aurin that struggles to overcome the destruction of her home world. There is a lot of great stuff there.
 
2. The best part of Wildstar so far IS the attunement process. Most of us (in our guild at least) are basically playing the Attunement game. We know we are never going to raid, but we are really enjoying the attunement process. Its fun to try and get silver on this adventure or that dungeon. Stop dumbing it down. the attunement process isn't the problem, as a matter of fact its the only reason what's left of my guild plays the game. Its almost like a really cool scavenger hunt.
 
3. 40 man warplot. Many people in my guild were stoked about warplots. I myself love the idea. However very few people are going to be able to gather 40 people for a warplot. I know I'll get blasted for saying that, by the 1% that can, but when you want millions of players, over several servers to play this game, 40 is a very large number. Hell on our best day we might get 40 people of varying levels on at one time. I think 12 level 50s have been the most we ever fielded, and based on other MMOs we've played, this is the norm. I know there are raiding guilds that can field that many, but again they make up 1% of your customer base. How about a scaled warplot queue 12-18, 19-27, 28-36, etc. Smaller warplots with scaled back abilities, with scaled back rewards. So the HARDCORE players can get what they want, and the less than HARDCORE can get a chance to play too. 
 
4. Crafting. If you are an armor smith, once you master a recipe, you can make that item, but if you are a Technologist you have to try and master a recipe every time you make it. There is no way to make multiple units. There is no way to craft gear with specific rune slots (some thought that was the point of catalyst). Cooking was not only a nightmare hobby, but after struggling through the mastery level (at great personal cost to their sanity) the stuff they could make wasn't any better than what you could purchase at the nearest vendor. Meat dropped rarely, but the recipes called for huge quantities of it.
 
There were other reasons for some, but those are the top four. I personally was disappointed that after the hillarious promo videos, there were none in the game. You guys have created some great characters, but we never see them in the game. The last of our guild is hoping that some miracle will turn this game around, but as I sit in the queue for an hour waiting for it to pop, mindlessly surfing a deserted Thayd, I worry that this game won't be here come Christmas.
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As a huge fan of the Rainbow six series (yeah yeah I'm old) I really would like to see an option for smaller warplots say 12 vs 12. First of all then my poor system would be able to handle it. Secondly when you are in a small group like that, tactics play more of a part than pure brute force. In the rainbow six world you would have two six man teams taking position, moving in group covering suspected ambush sites, each group working to take advantage of the other. Think of the Halo PVP wargames. Somebody mentioned a "Skirmish Plot" I love this idea. A warplot with a single power generator, a couple of traps / defenses, and very scaled back rewards when compared to an actual warplot. Not only would this blow up as new PVP route, but it would be a training aground for those wishing to put together an actual warplot.
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Make warplots guild based in a persistent zone to themselves; either dropped into a cool landscape OR still floating in the sky. Toss in some transport (ships / aerials skiffs) and make it a faction control meta where guilds can assault other guilds plots to take resources get sweet loot and shift the faction control in their favor.
 
 
Who wouldn't wan't to jet pack out of a ship onto an enemy factions warplot floating in the sky and get to work?!	
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Carbine can't make people queue into a mode that takes player investment.  They have more control over PVE, but in PVP, if people aren't playing against each other, I don't think it behooves Carbine to hire an opposition team to play against them.  It's the double-edged sword of PVP.  That's why WoW and EVE have those tools in place and why their PVP guilds are better organized.  Unfortunately, in this case, it is on players to actually run the content.
 
You can make suggestions on how this content can be made different to run differently, but I find it hard to lay all the blame on Carbine.  I'm assuming more than 40 people on each faction want to do warplots.  There is a certain amount of the onus on the actual players themselves to actually build the warplots to field them.  And if there aren't enough people that want to do the warplots, it shouldn't matter that nobody does them.
 
Obviously people want to do them, but they're not building the warplots themselves in enough quantities to make a random queue worthwhile (is I think your point).  In that case, the solutions would be twofold, encourage players to build more of them (perhaps by giving players who field warplots, especially good ones, extra advantages everywhere else?) or make it so that it's easier to queue for without being involved in an investment process.
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As an aside, and apologies OP as this turning into a Warplot thread, but I feel like Carbine have completely missed the emotional element of large scale MMO content.
 
GvG, RvR, Raiding, Ranked Arena, all of these features carry emotional weight because of identity.
 
You're in a top tier raiding guild, pushing for a world first? You do it in the name of your guild, and people make connections with you based on that.
You're a force to be reckoned with in open world RvR? You're that havoc squad that gets crap done. Or that guild that will always come and save a falling keep. People know you.
You're a highly ranked arena player, your gear reflects it, as does your reputation.
You're unbeaten in GvG. Perhaps it's the strength of your front line. Or your healers. Or movement. Either way, people want to beat you but fear you.
 
There's no reward structure, no reputation to latch on to, no identity to be associated with. There are a ton of things Carbine could do here, stuff that no MMO has done before, if they wanted.
 
Carbine have shown time and time again that they can think outside of the box. With Warplots they built a "Build your own AV!" and then expected players to treat it exactly like AV; queue, in, out, rinse, repeat.	
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@Vic, I think we may have different understandings of how a typical PVPer plays the game, and how groups of PVPers (guilds etc) play the game. I'm a longtime PVPer and I saw in Wildstar exactly what I see in every MMO community: Run the content that's accessible to a moderate number of players (5-10), gear up, then arena.
 
IMO Warplots were made as fluff by design; they're just a kind of augment, a "if you feel like it check out this neat thing" aspect to endgame, for the PVP people. But these are the people used to having fast, hard content with tangible rewards and the thrill of victory. The last part is the only part that applies to Warplots— and again, most PVPers are going to choose the direct and less burdensome way to get that particular satisfaction.
 
Now, you can interpret that as a lack of effort on their part. I interpret the situation as a whole as the developer failing to see what 'good' design will be when it comes to PVP content.
 
AV definitely had a fanbase in WoW but it was always a problem child for Blizzard. Warplots just takes that basic concept and complicates it from the ground up. :P	
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Amayasu,  You brought up a few good points.
- Mass E-mail,  I'm not talking about being able to e-mail everybody in your realm, but an ability to e-mail everybody in your guild or everybody in your circle would be great.
- In other games I can see who is in my realm.  This comes in handy when you need a healer or a tank.  A quick check of the zone allows you to pug a little more directly.  
- In some games not being able to communicate with the other side makes sense, but in Wildstar everybody speaks the same language, but in PVP you should be able to say things to the otherside.   I agree that Warplot commanders should be able to communicate with other warplot commanders, like an ingame message board at the very least. 
 
@ old man tek,   no there is no story line.  There is a rough back story, but no real story.  Play StarWars the Old Republic to see what I'm talking about.  As a mostly solo player while leveling, I can without a doubt testify that other than the Datacrons that drop breadcrumbs hinting at a story, there isn't a story that you are immersed in.  I have queued a few times for Daggerstone pass and have yet to play it.   I posted the reasons that people told me as they left the game why they were leaving, so I'm not the only one that see no story.   I'm not the only one that has a problem (as evidenced here) with how the warplot works. And having done all but cooking in the crafting world, you might not have tried technologist.  You use the little elements to get the dot on the item you want to craft and maybe you get or maybe you don't, but once you get it, then the next time you want to craft that item, you have to do it all over again, while as an armor smith or a weapons smith you just select the item you want to craft.  	
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Players put in "effort" in games when they are incentivized to do so.  They do stuff that's either fun on its own, or that rewards them with things they can then use to go and do other fun stuff. The best game elements are both of these, of course -- intrinsically fun and also well-rewarded.  
 
It seems the Warplots weren't incentivized enough to make them attractive.  Since I don't PvP much except for the odd BG here and there, what kind of rewards could Carbine offer players to make them willing to go to the effort of putting together a Warplot if it's not fun enough to be worth it on its own?  
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I like your posts Vic, and I agree with the sentiment, but i'm not onboard with the arguments.
 
I think we can agree that the responsibility falls on both parties; players and Carbine.
 
If players weren't bothering to make War Parties and build Warplots, i'd completely agree. But the reality is that they are. I'm in a War Party. I have been for a while. I've yet to do one in Live - I played a couple in beta.
 
There are things Carbine can do in order to stimulate this. It is not on the player to solve mechanical problems.
 
I'm not laying all the blame on Carbine, but consider the following;
A game mode that forces factional combat with a communication wall between factions.That, alone, is a mechanical problem. I can't whisper the leader of another War Party and challenge them. Another;
I have no idea, at all, what other War Parties are out there. The game doesn't list them, and any player choosing to represent their War Party is seen the same as any player wanting to represent their guild or circle.That's another. If I can't find out what other groups are out there, I have very little chance of scheduling things. This is different to raiding; I don't care about what other guilds are raiding, it doesn't prohibit a own group from running the content. One more;
Warparties are not strong enough to be considered a social group, and many War Parties comprised of several sub-guilds and circles. Getting "the message out" to all in a party is just poor. 
Just solving these three problems would make a massive difference.
 
Suggestion;
Extend the Warplot UI to:Allow any player to view all known War Parties, for either faction, their W/L rate and # games played.
Allow leaders to mark as "recruiting"
Allow leaders to mass-mail and mass-whisper all members of their War Party in one operation.
Allow leaders to send a mail to the leader of any other War Party, regardless of faction. Open to abuse? On a micro level, and one that can be reported via the usual customer service channels and carries the usual punishments. I'd soon they gave us the tools and punish the abusers rather than never giving the tools.
Allow me to filter War Parties to show ones that have enough people online to spike a fight right there, right then, and...
Allow leaders to (very) publicly challenge another War Party to a fight, and set an agreed date and time. 
 
War plots are going to 30v30 and allow mercs to join pre-fabricated plots to play. That's a great start, but it still does nothing to address two issues mentioned above.
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@ old man tek, no there is no story line. There is a rough back story, but no real story. Play StarWars the Old Republic to see what I'm talking about. As a mostly solo player while leveling, I can without a doubt testify that other than the Datacrons that drop breadcrumbs hinting at a story, there isn't a story that you are immersed in. I have queued a few times for Daggerstone pass and have yet to play it. I posted the reasons that people told me as they left the game why they were leaving, so I'm not the only one that see no story. I'm not the only one that has a problem (as evidenced here) with how the warplot works. And having done all but cooking in the crafting world, you might not have tried technologist. You use the little elements to get the dot on the item you want to craft and maybe you get or maybe you don't, but once you get it, then the next time you want to craft that item, you have to do it all over again, while as an armor smith or a weapons smith you just select the item you want to craft.
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			Vic I haven't agreed with everything you've said today, but your above post screams common sense.  I agree with every word.  I really agree that Warplots shouldn't just be faction vs faction.   In SWTOR even PVP is group vs group rather than faction vs faction.  	
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{| class="blockquote"
@Vic, I think we may have different understandings of how a typical PVPer plays the game, and how groups of PVPers (guilds etc) play the game. I'm a longtime PVPer and I saw in Wildstar exactly what I see in every MMO community: Run the content that's accessible to a moderate number of players (5-10), gear up, then arena.
 
IMO Warplots were made as fluff by design; they're just a kind of augment, a "if you feel like it check out this neat thing" aspect to endgame, for the PVP people. But these are the people used to having fast, hard content with tangible rewards and the thrill of victory. The last part is the only part that applies to Warplots— and again, most PVPers are going to choose the direct and less burdensome way to get that particular satisfaction.
 
Now, you can interpret that as a lack of effort on their part. I interpret the situation as a whole as the developer failing to see what 'good' design will be when it comes to PVP content.
 
AV definitely had a fanbase in WoW but it was always a problem child for Blizzard. Warplots just takes that basic concept and complicates it from the ground up. :P
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Vic I haven't agreed with everything you've said today, but your above post screams common sense.  I agree with every word.  I really agree that Warplots shouldn't just be faction vs faction.   In SWTOR even PVP is group vs group rather than faction vs faction.  
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Really?  I have been a technologist, an architect, an armorer, an outfitter, a weaponsmith, and the like.  When I follow the exact same group of additives, sometimes it hits the mark, and sometimes it doesn't.  Hell I started to write down the recipes I used to make sure I was adding the same additives each time.  There was a distinct change in where the target landed even though the exact same additives were used.  However if I want to build a chest piece, i just click on the schematic and away you go. 
 
A story you say I'm overlooking?   What was the story in thayd?  I'm not talking about go see commander crankypants and he sends you to kill 10 of these and gather 20 of those.   That isn't a story.  That's just some guy telling you to do stuff.  "The draken are hammering us, go get ten of their rifles."  That isn't story.  The drusera story line is good, but it comes late in the game, and it is sort of free floating. It doesn't really connect with the world you're in untill you get to the strain areas.  The dominion is at war with the Exiles.  Where is concern about that?  Where is the "Bedford Forrest" of the dominion that the exiles are chasing all over Nexus, where's the trusted commander that's secretly an agent for the exiles, where's the farmer that discovered some acient eldan artifact that he has been keeping secret?   You know story.  What wildstar has is a premise, not a story.  Exiles found Eldan homeworld, try to settle it, Dominion learns about it and invades, both factions discover drusera and that is it.  While your poking around Galleras, there should be something going on that captivates you.   The game needs some story, some meat. 	
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			These elements all exist in the game. Sorry that they didn't plop a giant book in your lap at level 1 and that you actually have to play the game to get the story, but your ignorance does not translate into a nonexistent storyline.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Really?  I have been a technologist, an architect, an armorer, an outfitter, a weaponsmith, and the like.  When I follow the exact same group of additives, sometimes it hits the mark, and sometimes it doesn't.  Hell I started to write down the recipes I used to make sure I was adding the same additives each time.  There was a distinct change in where the target landed even though the exact same additives were used.  However if I want to build a chest piece, i just click on the schematic and away you go. 
 
A story you say I'm overlooking?   What was the story in thayd?  I'm not talking about go see commander crankypants and he sends you to kill 10 of these and gather 20 of those.   That isn't a story.  That's just some guy telling you to do stuff.  "The draken are hammering us, go get ten of their rifles."  That isn't story.  The drusera story line is good, but it comes late in the game, and it is sort of free floating. It doesn't really connect with the world you're in untill you get to the strain areas.  The dominion is at war with the Exiles.  Where is concern about that?  Where is the "Bedford Forrest" of the dominion that the exiles are chasing all over Nexus, where's the trusted commander that's secretly an agent for the exiles, where's the farmer that discovered some acient eldan artifact that he has been keeping secret?   You know story.  What wildstar has is a premise, not a story.  Exiles found Eldan homeworld, try to settle it, Dominion learns about it and invades, both factions discover drusera and that is it.  While your poking around Galleras, there should be something going on that captivates you.   The game needs some story, some meat. 
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{| class="blockquote"
There actually are quite a few storylines that cross zones. Durek and Kara and their disagreements and methods, the ongoing elder cube storyline featuring Zin and Dorian Walker, the brothers within the Dominion being set against each other, these kinds of storylines are everywhere. If you aren't reading the text or keeping up with lore, it can just whiz by. That makes sense; some IRL people don't care to know what people want them to do. But if you do keep up on reading the lore, know the names, and pay attention to everything that's said; you almost get the opposite impression. You keep running into the same people and the same ongoing stories.
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{| class="blockquote"
See what paying attention does?
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See what paying attention does?
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yah vic I hear what you're saying, believe me I read every single line of every interaction.  I love being immersed in a game, however I get the feeling that we are coming from different points of view.  I'm thinking that transfers from games like WoW are used to this sort of thing as the story.   I have been playing SWTOR for a few years before this and they had the kind of story I'm talking about.  I'm talking about a personalized story.  A story that YOU are part of, not some generic story that everybody passing by picks up.  
My example.  
 
In SWTOR lets say you pick Sith Sorcerer Zabrik.    So the game starts you off at the Sith Academy.  right off the bat the instructors and guards start treating you like crap because you are from a slave race and they are genuinely offended that a slave like you is attending the academy.   However if you picked Sith Warrior Human,   instead people are impressed by your prowess, they fear you.  If you are a woman they hit on you, if you are a guy the women flirt with you (and when I left they even added men hitting on you. :O )   You interact with Lord Cranky pants, you can tell him to go to hell or kiss his butt.   You have karma that is effected by your choices.  This later effects your interactions with other NPCs.  Why did you go to Hoth?  It wasn't to kill ten snowmen and collect 20 rifles.  You went there searching for the guy that has a map.  You went there to kill a spy.  You went there because you had a bounty to collect.  
 
Wildstar has a story in Tremor ridge and Gallows.  The XAS story line is basically Belle Walker is out there go find her.  You meet her in five minutes, she sends you to collect things.  Not really the same thing as a genuinely immersive  story.   	
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yah vic I hear what you're saying, believe me I read every single line of every interaction.  I love being immersed in a game, however I get the feeling that we are coming from different points of view.  I'm thinking that transfers from games like WoW are used to this sort of thing as the story.   I have been playing SWTOR for a few years before this and they had the kind of story I'm talking about.  I'm talking about a personalized story.  A story that YOU are part of, not some generic story that everybody passing by picks up.  
My example.  
 
In SWTOR lets say you pick Sith Sorcerer Zabrik.    So the game starts you off at the Sith Academy.  right off the bat the instructors and guards start treating you like crap because you are from a slave race and they are genuinely offended that a slave like you is attending the academy.   However if you picked Sith Warrior Human,   instead people are impressed by your prowess, they fear you.  If you are a woman they hit on you, if you are a guy the women flirt with you (and when I left they even added men hitting on you. :o )   You interact with Lord Cranky pants, you can tell him to go to hell or kiss his butt.   You have karma that is effected by your choices.  This later effects your interactions with other NPCs.  Why did you go to Hoth?  It wasn't to kill ten snowmen and collect 20 rifles.  You went there searching for the guy that has a map.  You went there to kill a spy.  You went there because you had a bounty to collect.  
 
Wildstar has a story in Tremor ridge and Gallows.  The XAS story line is basically Belle Walker is out there go find her.  You meet her in five minutes, she sends you to collect things.  Not really the same thing as a genuinely immersive  story.   
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			I want to thank you Old Man Tek and Vic,   you opened my eyes to something I had been trying to fight.  Wildstar is an amazing looking game with some great innovations and I really liked some of the class ideas, Engineer is a RANGED tank that was really cool, but at the end of the day Wildstar was really made to try and snag dissatisfied WoW players.   Gamers like me, and for the most part the hundred or so guildies that already have left for Archage and TESO, are not the target audience of Wildstar.   Its a shame because I desperately wanted to like this game.  I really wanted to see a warplot in all its glory.   But.... I probably need to move on.  Thanks for all the replies and thanks to the guys at Wildstar for a fun first few months.  Best wishes. 	
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All I know is that it's very comic-bookish, and you keep running across the same people and picking up new threads of the story in which they are very specifically talking to you and working with you.  I think it's very well done.  YMMV, of course.  Some people really like the BioSoap, I'm just not one of them.
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I adore a well told story.  I liked the Drusera instances but they really don't hold a candle to TOR.  Wildstar's storytelling is soulless.  I'm trying to think past Whitehaven and nothing story related really sticks out.  Even WoW has some better stories (Keeshan, saving Thrall from the elements, Rhea's Last Egg -- man I was gutted when I thought I accidentally lost that).
 
The storytelling here is too dumbed down.  When you get some meat, it's delivered in the middle of a pack of pathers that require high-concentration combat with stupid short respawn rates.  The Eldan sound like a bunch of whiny kids which makes it very hard to care about them.  Personally schadenfreude is best in small doses.  Too much of the Eldan, not enough Drusera.  Heck, after the early areas the Dominion notables get relegated to cameo status (haven't made it past lvl25 on the Exile side).
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{| class="blockquote"
I adore a well told story.  I liked the Drusera instances but they really don't hold a candle to TOR.  Wildstar's storytelling is soulless.  I'm trying to think past Whitehaven and nothing story related really sticks out.  Even WoW has some better stories (Keeshan, saving Thrall from the elements, Rhea's Last Egg -- man I was gutted when I thought I accidentally lost that).
 
The storytelling here is too dumbed down.  When you get some meat, it's delivered in the middle of a pack of pathers that require high-concentration combat with stupid short respawn rates.  The Eldan sound like a bunch of whiny kids which makes it very hard to care about them.  Personally schadenfreude is best in small doses.  Too much of the Eldan, not enough Drusera.  Heck, after the early areas the Dominion notables get relegated to cameo status (haven't made it past lvl25 on the Exile side).
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Really?
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			SWTOR's storytelling was interesting, one time through on each faction/class at most. Zero replay value, and once you get used to it, the serious lacks in the way it was done versus the way it was advertised become apparent. None of your 'choices' matter, for the world(s) or for your character in the long term. Your morality only matters for points that were a pre-requisite for one vendor in the game. Going through the side quests and making different choices didn't matter. The storyline if you picked a different Advanced Class didn't change. Having a different companion with you didn't make significant differences. Playing with another human player didn't matter, they were just along for the ride during your scenes, and during the general quests it was RNG with no long term differences in outcome.At least with Wildstar I create my own story in my head and tailor it to what I'm doing based on content I choose to do or not do, and lore I choose to read or ignore. 	
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Jedi consular? Nothing to see here....
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Really.  Like I said, I'm not a big fan of laughing at others' follies exclusively.  I need something to cheer for.  Take The Game of Thrones vs. The Dresden Files: The first I had to fight to get through.  The second I had to fight to put down.
 
I think I just put my finger on why I find it so flat.  Until end-game, most of my involvement in the story is its discovery.  That works for books, but computer RPG's are interactive.  I only become an active participant with the Drusera and Strain missions and that's pretty much near end-game.  The biggest sin is that it makes the Dominion vs. Exile struggle irrelevant which is stupid given the hard faction separation.  (Or maybe a hopeful sign that they're going to do away with hard factions :lol: One can dream).
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{| class="blockquote"
The narratives were dull, cliche, and frankly boring. What swtor had wasn't good story; but good storytelling. The voice overs were great, the visuals were good, and the seperate storys for each class were cool. But none of them were good stories.
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There were plenty of the Eldan who are sympathetic characters.
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We'll have to disagree then.  Yes, some of them were cliche (JK, Trooper) and some of them fell apart (Smuggler's was all about the humor, Inquisitor was a schoolyard fight).  Imperial Agent was awesome, if only I could have joined the 3rd faction I would have.
 
The thing was I was part of the story instead of being back in history class.  The class (and companion stories) added just enough variation to the two levelling paths that it mitigated the boredom of revisiting those planets. 
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Your example is a bit unfortunate as (at least Dominion side) one of the datachrons they recorded early on were particularly creepy.
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After reading through some of this thread, I saw the suggestion that premade warplots should be available...I'm not sure I like that idea, because it removes the strategy of placing the plugs, which is already part of the match.
 
What I would much prefer would be if Carbine would take inspiration from the TCG genre. With TCGs, entire tournaments can be played with sealed packs of randomized cards. The player needs to develop a strategy and put a deck together based on the cards (s)he gets out of the packs before the match even starts.
 
Mercenary warplots could be the same way. At the start of the match, each team is given a pool of randomized plugs that would have roughly twice as many plugs as are needed to fill their portion of the field, and then a reasonably short time limit is enforced for both teams to set up their sides of the field. That becomes the first strategic portion of the match. Then the PvP portion of the match begins.
 
I completely agree regarding the coordinate crafting system...I haven't spoken to anyone who actually likes it, and I've tried to avoid it.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Is Warplots fun enough to be a reward in and of itself?
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{| class="blockquote"
There are a lot who aren't sympathetic.  Nazrek was VERY terrible.  He probably made the one you were talking about.
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Far too much importance is placed on incentives nowadays, whereas older games were designed around the goal that playing the game needed to be its own reward. Game modes of any sort need to be fun on their own, and the rewards a nice secondary bonus. Game modes that are designed solely around rewards are doomed to lose appeal when the player doesn't get the specific reward they want. And then, when they do get the reward they want...why should they continue playing?
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I think that perhaps many of us are confusing the word "story" with the word "theme".
 
Nexus has lots of story.  There's all kinds of plots and subplots that go throughout the game.  Dominion vs. Exile, Drusera. vs Entity, the machinations of the Eldan, the aftermath of their downfall, Protostar's corporate greed.
 
But I think what most of the people posting that there's not enough story are actually asking for is stronger unifying themes in discrete areas of content.  
 
 
I absolutely loved the first part of Galeras because it was all about Dominion vs. Exile.  But it did feel a little wierd when I got to the XAS research camp and suddenly it's the Darkspur Cartel and later, the Pell.  Not a lot wierd, but a little.  It's like "Wait, what happened to the Dommies?"  Then I got through that and suddenly "oh look, there's the Dommies again".  
 
 
Now this has not bothered me very much because I like complicated, interwoven settings with multiple plotlines advancing in parallel.  But the experience is definitely fragmented and for folks who aren't used to experiencing a storyline in a de-serialized way, that's confusing.
 
Compare Galeras to Whitevale, where there's hardly a unifying theme at all from one set of quests to the next, and you begin to see what bothers people.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Character progression is a core characteristic of RPG's.  Take that away and you've got... Sudoku or any of the countless casual flash games out there.  Not that those are bad, just appeals to a different fan base than the common RPG player.  Sure there are rare individuals who play them for the sake of playing them but they're not the norm.
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Oops, too subtle.
 
 
 I meant Ohmna. 
 
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{| class="blockquote"
Gear progression? Yes, to some extent, but not to the extreme that MMOs have taken it. MMOs never 'end', and as a result, developers feel like they have to create gear progression far beyond what traditional RPGs ever had.
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Yeah, sorry for the confusion.
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Well that and you need 2 warplots to start a warplot match.  How many of them are there?  They take a lot of work and a lot of cooperation.  You need to at least have a guild building one.  If a thousand people queue, and only two guilds queue with their warplot, and both of those guilds have close to 40 people, those queues won't move.
 
There just aren't enough srs bsns PVP guilds out there banding together to make these things function.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Jedi consular? Nothing to see here....
 
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{| class="blockquote"
I adore a well told story.  I liked the Drusera instances but they really don't hold a candle to TOR.  Wildstar's storytelling is soulless.  I'm trying to think past Whitehaven and nothing story related really sticks out.  Even WoW has some better stories (Keeshan, saving Thrall from the elements, Rhea's Last Egg -- man I was gutted when I thought I accidentally lost that).
 
The storytelling here is too dumbed down.  When you get some meat, it's delivered in the middle of a pack of pathers that require high-concentration combat with stupid short respawn rates.  The Eldan sound like a bunch of whiny kids which makes it very hard to care about them.  Personally schadenfreude is best in small doses.  Too much of the Eldan, not enough Drusera.  Heck, after the early areas the Dominion notables get relegated to cameo status (haven't made it past lvl25 on the Exile side).
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{| class="blockquote"
This made me laugh, I think one of the main reasons SWTOR remains the only MMO I have played and not reached level cap was that my first character was a Jedi consular. I made it to around level 35 and just uninstalled the game, it was so..... MEH
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Didnt reach level cap in swtor... i thought i was the only one i couldnt stomach the game after like level 35 and didnt know why...so i lasted like a week and cancelled.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I capped all classes; you didn't miss much. The storytelling was awesome; the stories being told were pretty terrible. Only saving grace was lightsabers and force lightening.
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I really liked the soul eater side-kick and the intro to Sorc area.
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			Here's how you answer if a game's Star Wars storyline is good or effective:Ask "Does your Smuggler smuggle anything?" No? End of discussion.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Here's how you answer if a game's Star Wars storyline is good or effective:
 
Ask "Does your Smuggler smuggle anything?" No? End of discussion.
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			One thing I don't understand (and this is my ignorance, not sarcasm) is how EverQuest players can still - to this day - field 72-player raids but WildStar players can't field 40-player Warplots. If it's a server population issue, hopefully megaservers will help.	
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{| class="blockquote"
One thing I don't understand (and this is my ignorance, not sarcasm) is how EverQuest players can still - to this day - field 72-player raids but WildStar players can't field 40-player Warplots. If it's a server population issue, hopefully megaservers will help.
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{| class="blockquote"
One thing I don't understand (and this is my ignorance, not sarcasm) is how EverQuest players can still - to this day - field 72-player raids but WildStar players can't field 40-player Warplots. If it's a server population issue, hopefully megaservers will help.
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{| class="blockquote"
Sigh. That makes it sound like there aren't enough people putting in the effort to make their own fun compared to people that want fun handed to them. Common theme these days.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not exactly. It's that the effort doesn't pay off. My guild has a warplot, but getting 40 folks on and finding another 40 equally-geared, equally-motivated people is a lot of effort on the part of our pvp officers.
 
PVPers want to spend time doing what they enjoy, which is PVP. Right now, that time is better spent in other forms of PVP. More bang for the buck, yknow.
 
If warplots were more like what Rift does for their large battlegrounds then no doubt they'd be more utilized.
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{| class="blockquote"
So 72 man raids in EQ pay off more than warplots and W* raids? Or are some how more enjoyable?
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{| class="blockquote"
You tell me? Maybe they do, because people are actually raiding. Not sure what raids have to do with warplots aside from "it takes a big group."
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{| class="blockquote"
As a long time EQ player, I'm going to have to go with no. The Raids in EQ were boring even in 2002 when I began shifting more of my time to FFXI. 
 
The taking a big group was the point, talking about population not being the issue in W*, but the player base and their goals being the issue. EQ has lower pops than W*; and still fields large teams for content. I believe that was the poster we were responding to's point.
 
For the record, I don't disagree with you Phan, If Warplots were more like Rift's system set up I think a lot more people would be engaged with them. I would personally like to see something like that, with the RvR elements from WAR added in (maybe make a warplot map where faction control is based on capturing resources from the opposing factions Warplots / something to that effect...)
 
But I also see some of the problem being the player base. EQ has a very distinct player base right now (the hardest of the hardcore), while W*'s is a little bit more .... fluid? Let's go with that adjective :) Two groups with two different goals / desires from the games they play.
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			Ummmmm ... they are not listening, I love the game as well and we tried to tell them in early beta to not do all this hardcore stuff and well they did not listen. So disappointed since this could have been a huge game if they only learned from past lessons and listened to the majority of players.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Ummmmm ... they are not listening, I love the game as well and we tried to tell them in early beta to not do all this hardcore stuff and well they did not listen. So disappointed since this could have been a huge game if they only learned from past lessons and listened to the majority of players.
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