124218-people-are-not-subbing-page-3

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https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10
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Gonna copy the text over from another thread, since it also fits this discussion imo:
 
 
There's one easy thing that Carbine could do to instantly attract more people and simultaneously also fix the problems with low-level BG/dungeon queues...and no....it doesn't involve f/b2p... ;)
 
I think it has been suggested multiple times already:
 
Make the game free till lvl ~25-30!  (25 should be the minimum, since you gain your first t4-skill at that level....and you want people to experience the options that come with it first hand...)
A permanent trail for the early levels, if you want to call it that (much like WoW being free till level 20 [correct me if I'm wrong...I never played WoW...]).
 
Those early levels are CRUCIAL as hell!!!!! Most of the time the early game experience determinants, if we keep playing a game...or not.
Having those levels available for anyone to try (without limitations*), will rejuvenate the low-level brackets, which currently feel barren and dead.
 
And when that happens - when people have fun again at low levels and are able to actually experience the different aspects of the game (solo-story, PVP/pBG's, dungeons) - they are FAR more likely to sub...
 
 
* Do not limit chat-functionality or the AH/CX. Doing that, will lessen the impact of the community-aspect of the game, which will just hurt in such a trail...
  Just block the CREDD npc. That's all the limitations you need...	
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This guy isn't being paid by Carbine or NCSoft. He's not obliged to advertise for them, so the one here who isn't being reasonable is you.
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This really is a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Small population, so I won't bother subbing." Note, not actually against subbing, so this person is part of the sub market.
 
Reminds me of the struggles my husband is going through as an indie author/editor. How do you get money to fund your products/books? Have fans. How do you get fans? Have products/books out. >_<
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https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10
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			So ESO is actually doing well after the going b2p? 	
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So ESO is actually doing well after the going b2p? 
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So ESO is actually doing well after the going b2p? 
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I know Rift did that, The do have items in their shop but nothing that isn't replaced after you start raiding. They do have the epic you could get an orange shiney from this box cash sink but I doubt many people use it and even less won a great item. 
 
Rift, DW2, ESo, and FF seem to understand the B2p or F2P market pretty well and are having good success. Fact is some people still sub for whatever the extra benefit is and spend in the cash shop as well.  	
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Population is way more than doubled or tripled and its not only on steams top 10, but also in any other game sales site. Its also not cheap, as it costs 59,99$ so i cant imagine how many more will buy it when some sort of discount arrives.
The cash (crown) shop is indeed one of the best in the market, as it sells 100% fluff stuff. No pay to win or pay walls, completes a superb B2P transition for ESO. So yes, i guess ESO is doing more than fine and people have great fun playing with tons of others every hour of the day. Isn't that anyway what really matters when you play mmo's?
 
*Once again i ll say i like WS 10 times more than ESO, but on the other hand...
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Population is way more than doubled or tripled and its not only on steams top 10, but also in any other game sales site. Its also not cheap, as it costs 59,99$ so i cant imagine how many more will buy it when some sort of discount arrives.
The cash (crown) shop is indeed one of the best in the market, as it sells 100% fluff stuff. No pay to win or pay walls, completes a superb B2P transition for ESO. So yes, i guess ESO is doing more than fine and people have great fun playing with tons of others every hour of the day. Isn't that anyway what really matters when you play mmo's?
 
*Once again i ll say i like WS 10 times more than ESO, but on the other hand...
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Hey man, I'm 110% with you a good B2P model could do wonders to WS.
 
I know some people here will tell you that the quality of the content will suffer because everything is put into the cash shop to maximize their profits, but that's subjective to who you ask. I'm sure throwing a small team on the cash shop part of the game will not hurt the quality of content produced.
 
I feel the same way about WoW; even though, I'm luke warm on it I actually went back after 8 years a played it because there was a lot of stuff to do with a shit ton pf people to do it with.
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https://youtu.be/r5wLrti0G10
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Biggest reasons why people aren't subbing are listed right there in the video. Currently, that Wildstar review has over 4k views, some of those are POTENTIAL customers that this game will be missing out. 
 
Here's a comment from the guy who did the video.
 
" I literally just reinstalled, logged in, read patch notes and fumbled around the new content. "
 
This is what people DO. They don't go around and check reddit/forums always to see how the game population is doing. All they want to do is login and play! The 10 days free trial does absolutely nothing, if a player logins into a blight town. Not everyone goes into the forums/reddits and asks for help or where is everyone.
 
It's been asked before to close down the PVP server, merge, or have some message to redirect player to the PVE server. How long will take Carbine to do this? If Carbine dev think waiting to drop 5 to save PVP and the server, or worse until the end of year, they are fooling themselves.  :( 
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do not worry, the biggest draw of players will be the f2p/b2p.
and that is probably coming before drop 6.
so no need to close the pvp server just yet.
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There's two things that make me wonder why the PvP server is still open.
 
1. Carbine is hoping the new PvP changes and a small marketing push will bring back players.
or
2. They're waiting to announce a new payment model with a huge marketing campaign with it.
 
I could be a 100% wrong, but this is my opinion.
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Biggest reasons why people aren't subbing are listed right there in the video. Currently, that Wildstar review has over 4k views, some of those are POTENTIAL customers that this game will be missing out. 
 
Here's a comment from the guy who did the video.
 
" I literally just reinstalled, logged in, read patch notes and fumbled around the new content. "
 
This is what people DO. They don't go around and check reddit/forums always to see how the game population is doing. All they want to do is login and play! The 10 days free trial does absolutely nothing, if a player logins into a blight town. Not everyone goes into the forums/reddits and asks for help or where is everyone.
 
It's been asked before to close down the PVP server, merge, or have some message to redirect player to the PVE server. How long will take Carbine to do this? If Carbine dev think waiting to drop 5 to save PVP and the server, or worse until the end of year, they are fooling themselves.  :( 
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your are 50% wrong.
only point 2 is good.
 
there is NO WAY a "marketing push" and "pvp changes" can bring a big enough influx of players all at the same time to make the pvp servers alive.
only a change of business model can do that at this point.
 
 ;)
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You are just one tenacious dude when it comes to the F2P model, ain'tcha? You just have to mention it in like every post or something.
 
You're like the Anti-Oli. :lol:
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Biggest reasons why people aren't subbing are listed right there in the video. Currently, that Wildstar review has over 4k views, some of those are POTENTIAL customers that this game will be missing out. 
 
Here's a comment from the guy who did the video.
 
" I literally just reinstalled, logged in, read patch notes and fumbled around the new content. "
 
This is what people DO. They don't go around and check reddit/forums always to see how the game population is doing. All they want to do is login and play! The 10 days free trial does absolutely nothing, if a player logins into a blight town. Not everyone goes into the forums/reddits and asks for help or where is everyone.
 
It's been asked before to close down the PVP server, merge, or have some message to redirect player to the PVE server. How long will take Carbine to do this? If Carbine dev think waiting to drop 5 to save PVP and the server, or worse until the end of year, they are fooling themselves.  :( 
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Actually, the biggest reason people might not sub (or even try the free trial) is because of PR lag.  An example:
 
My old WoW guild doesn't play Wildstar.  That's probably thirty or forty people who would really like to try the game, but won't even bother trying it for free.  You may think that has something to do with Wildstar, but it doesn't.  I post footage and screenshots from Wildstar all the time, and I do get people to try the game.  The old WoW guild, they LOVE the stuff I show them.  Housing is mouthwatering to an RP-raiding guild, and they loved when I posted a video of a STL normal run about six or seven months back.  They praise the visuals, the graphics, the gameplay, but they won't take the trial.
 
You might then think it has something to do with WoW, but it doesn't.  Most of them have complained about the game in response to those videos, and everyone seems to be very disappointed in the WoD expansion.  They've complained about garrisons.  They aren't excited about the content they have on hand.  They've been playing the game for over a decade in many cases; they're bored.  Yet they won't try Wildstar.
 
Easy answer they always give me, "F2P".  That word is absolute poison, and is why most wouldn't drop in even to try for 10 days.  Square said pretty blankly they weren't going F2P, and they have far less issues with subscribers.  World of Warcraft, same thing.  EVE?  They're doing just fine.  But Wildstar has this guillotine hanging over its neck that would make it functionally worthless to most people who would invest.  I've been telling them that F2P isn't coming next month for probably a good nine months now, and they aren't any closer to trying the game.  Because of NCSoft's name and the stench of the payment model that doesn't go away, I can't even get these people to touch the game.  Doesn't matter how good it is, doesn't matter how much they dislike their current game.  They'll go to FFXIV:ARR or EVE first and consume that content before they even try this game for free.
 
If all goes well, finally maybe the game can jump the hurdle of everyone essentially poisoning their own well even here.  Optimally, it'll at least rise above the volume of people outside the game who will parrot it.  But it's very, very difficult to convince players willing to subscribe to the game to play when they're simply assuming they'd be funding a transition to F2P and leaving.
 
I've been more successful lately than I was in November, but NCSoft's reputation doesn't make it easy.  At least SquareEnix, Blizzard, and CCP don't have that stink about them already.  If the game improves and it gains subscribers, this will hopefully decrease in volume.  But you wouldn't believe how hard it is to talk about how good this game is when "F2P" ends all discussion.  It's not even F2P, but the very fear that it might (and not even knowing that it will), makes a lot of people very leery of leaving their own game and coming here permanently.
 
And I can't blame them, I wouldn't play this game if it went F2P either.  I just know we'd probably have another entire guild in this game right now if rumor and toxic PR weren't so rampant.
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And I can't blame them, I wouldn't play this game if it went F2P either.  I just know we'd probably have another entire guild in this game right now if rumor and toxic PR weren't so rampant.
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Vic, don't underestimate people.
they don't sub mostly because they simply... don't like the game or don't think it is worth a sub or would like to play it in smaller dose.
never they would not sub if they got hooked playing it simply because of "PR LAG".
 
you might get a few people here and there each day trying the free trial. and what does that do?
do you think the majority of them that did the free trial subbed?
do you think there is a lot of potential people that have not "tried it for free" yet ?
 
the.game.is.not.worth.a.sub.for.most.people.that.tried.it.
 
and i said "most people", not "everybody".
 
bottom line dude.
that s it.
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Okay, Vic ... I'm having some trouble here.
 
You say that your friends won't play this game because of the FEAR it *might maybe one day* go F2P. Let's assume that's not going to happen any time soon. That means your friends are likely to NEVER play Wildstar out of a misguided issue.
 
Meanwhile, the state of current population continues to turn people off. The PVP server dies outright. The game stagnates again as the free trials wear off and folks don't subscribe.
 
So now you have to ask yourself, do you love the game enough to see it potentially shuttered, an eternal ghost town just because you can't stand the idea of it going F2P and attracting thousands of new players whom you've never met before ... but at the same time, the people you seem to be waiting on to play STILL ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY.
 
Does that make sense, what I'm saying? You're afraid of it going F2P because all chance of your friends coming to play goes away  - but because they're going to live in this world of fear about the POSSIBILITY of it going F2P, they're never going to play in any event.
 
Thus, the game suffers without the influx a payment shift would bring *and* the game continues to suffer because of the negative "game is dead, servers are dead" PR bull-pucky.
 
Honestly man, I don't think you can have it both ways.
 
Now, I know that we'd all prefer the organic "grow the population over time through a combination of solid game changes and positive PR drives." I get that. I think we're all on board with that hope.
 
But that's all it is, brother. A hope. A dream of what we'd like to see. Financially, realistically, Wildstar needs more bodies. Those bodies aren't going to come without something serious changing at the subscription panel.	
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Okay, Vic ... I'm having some trouble here.
 
You say that your friends won't play this game because of the FEAR it *might maybe one day* go F2P. Let's assume that's not going to happen any time soon. That means your friends are likely to NEVER play Wildstar out of a misguided issue.
 
Meanwhile, the state of current population continues to turn people off. The PVP server dies outright. The game stagnates again as the free trials wear off and folks don't subscribe.
 
So now you have to ask yourself, do you love the game enough to see it potentially shuttered, an eternal ghost town just because you can't stand the idea of it going F2P and attracting thousands of new players whom you've never met before ... but at the same time, the people you seem to be waiting on to play STILL ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY.
 
Does that make sense, what I'm saying? You're afraid of it going F2P because all chance of your friends coming to play goes away  - but because they're going to live in this world of fear about the POSSIBILITY of it going F2P, they're never going to play in any event.
 
Thus, the game suffers without the influx a payment shift would bring *and* the game continues to suffer because of the negative "game is dead, servers are dead" PR bull-pucky.
 
Honestly man, I don't think you can have it both ways.
 
Now, I know that we'd all prefer the organic "grow the population over time through a combination of solid game changes and positive PR drives." I get that. I think we're all on board with that hope.
 
But that's all it is, brother. A hope. A dream of what we'd like to see. Financially, realistically, Wildstar needs more bodies. Those bodies aren't going to come without something serious changing at the subscription panel.
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Right now, for all anyone knows, Wildstar has more subscribers than FFXIV:ARR, 
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-epic post snip from Vic-
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If F2P was anywhere on the horizon, we'd know.  Paragon Studios announced damn near 2 quarters in advance that they were switching to City of Heroes: Freedom, which was F2P, "Freemium" (F2P with purchase) and Subscription.  We knew almost half a year before it happened.
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Not true at all, ESO announced it was going B2P Jan. 21st of this year, and recently converted 2-3 weeks ago, so that was 2 months. 
 
I'm not saying this will happen, but it's completely possible.
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If F2P was anywhere on the horizon, we'd know.  Paragon Studios announced damn near 2 quarters in advance that they were switching to City of Heroes: Freedom, which was F2P, "Freemium" (F2P with purchase) and Subscription.  We knew almost half a year before it happened.
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Aw, Kroger is one of my best paying clients. :(
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			Aw, Kroger is one of my best paying clients. :(	
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Much anger is this thread I sense.
 
Heres what I don't understand about this and pretty much all F2P threads.
 
1) They all say the same thing (usually): make some sort of B2P or F2P model because ultimately the population is too low to support the game.
 
2) Thereafter, there is impassioned defense of the argument from both sides, usually by a lot of the same people. Eventually, people become nasty, and then usually thread is locked.
 
3) Rinse and Repeat
 
Personally, I would find it a least a little hilarious. I guess we will have F2P threads forever if Vic is to be believed.
 
 
Anyway...
 
If you want to go F2P because you think that there isn't enough population to support the game, then maybe the solution is to find better ways of connecting the population that we do have. Seems like an extreme move to go straight to F2P because you cant find someone to group up with for a quest. And maybe it is just me, but if you find a group of people that you like to run content with (a guild perhaps) you will rarely lack for dungeon or adventures. And usually they are more fun because you get to talk to people at the same time. Wahoo!!!
 
And if you are making the claim that the game needs to go F2P to be financially successful and live on, then I would suggest that you let NCSoft and Carbine make that decision. Mostly because they actually know the number of subs, and sales, and Credd, and all the tools necessary to make an informed decision. Meanwhile, I doubt that anyone on the forums has access to the information needed.
 
Lastly, there is a lot of reasons that NCSoft might be willing to sink a large chunk of change into WS. One of those reasons is that they see potential and they want to improve their own reputation as a supporter of strong games. Or they don't want WS to compete with GW2, another game that is quite similar.
 
I'm with Vic on the train that the moment the game goes F2P, I'm out. I just don't like the payment model. But while they are continuing to make a great game that focuses on content rather than an extra cash shop, I'm in it for the long haul.
 
TL;DR: if you don't have people to play with, try meeting the people in game. If you think you know more than NCSoft or Carbine about Wildstar's financials, you don't.	
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You say that, but there have been plenty of times when millions of subscribers aren't brought back.  WoW gets a few million back not just for subscriptions, but requiring people to pay for an expansion.  And not even a relatively popular one.  FFXIV was a complete bust, but they literally relaunched it as a sub game again and did just fine.
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Personally, I would find it a least a little hilarious. I guess we will have F2P threads forever if Vic is to be believed.
 
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In a way, I kind of get why people get attached to the idea.  They want stuff for "free"; it sounds great on paper.  It's pretty much the reason every infomercial on television will give you some tool or accessory "absolutely free".  People don't often see things through the prism of economic potential, they figure it has to be just a "payment model change".  They don't consider the business model change that comes with it.
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Anecedotal information, yes, but I returned two weeks ago (stopped after drop 2) and resubbed.  So have 5 new members in the guild I joined.   In our guild that's six new players who resubbed (all departed around Drops 1 or 2) in the past two weeks.  We were talking about it last night.  What got us back?  Two things.  
 
First, the 10 day trial.  We all did it, remembered how fun and creative this game is and noted that much of the lack of polish from a year ago has been fixed.  We then managed to find the same guild where a lot of the players are returning/rerolling.  None of us feels "behind" as a result.  
 
Second, the shine has worn off WoD.  
 
Again, purely anecdotal and it is what it is.  
 
Kal	
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I can't tell for sure if subs have increased or not, but have seen people around even in zones 22+.
 
But while there is people waiting for the game to drop subscription (my brother being one), it will not help population in the long run, because if you looked at General MMO related sites people don't like from Wildstar:
1. The quest system, which imo takes immersion out.
2. Combat system. Many who probably haven't go past 20 find the combat boring and repetitive.
3. Dead PvP.
 
Until those things are addressed the population will not increase leaps and bounds.	
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I can't tell for sure if subs have increased or not, but have seen people around even in zones 22+.
 
But while there is people waiting for the game to drop subscription (my brother being one), it will not help population in the long run, because if you looked at General MMO related sites people don't like from Wildstar:
1. The quest system, which imo takes immersion out.
2. Combat system. Many who probably haven't go past 20 find the combat boring and repetitive.
3. Dead PvP.
 
Until those things are addressed the population will not increase leaps and bounds.
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I don't see WS PR talking about 4M+ accounts like FFXIV do (and at the day of PS4 release it was 2M IIRC, and yeah, I know, accounts do not equals active players) but most importantly, FFXIV do not just look good from the outside (PR), login and youll see active game, with active chat, active instances and populated world regardless of the zone, and that the point -- no amount of marketing can hide that WS is plainly EMPTY in 90% of the game.
 
And do remember that FF is the one of the biggest IP's in game world, they can (and did) recovered from the junk called FFXIII and FFXIV errors due to their pre-existing fan base. WS do not have that luxury.
 
 
I heard that a lot of times and ... guess what, I still play with some of those people in the "bad" F/B2P games now, face it there are only 4 sub games around (dunno how long FFIX will stay like that with the maintance mode tho) who have player numbers to make them sub worthy, so one can play same ol' WoW, FFXIV or EVE or ... well play some of the !@$#!#%@#$%#$^$%$& other model games.
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bla bla bla NcSoft not known for quality bla bla bla
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I can't tell for sure if subs have increased or not, but have seen people around even in zones 22+.
 
But while there is people waiting for the game to drop subscription (my brother being one), it will not help population in the long run, because if you looked at General MMO related sites people don't like from Wildstar:
1. The quest system, which imo takes immersion out.
2. Combat system. Many who probably haven't go past 20 find the combat boring and repetitive.
3. Dead PvP.
 
Until those things are addressed the population will not increase leaps and bounds.
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cough, GW1 and GW2, cough.
 
sometimes it is the developer's fault Vic....
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I played Guild Wars 1.  It was the original "WoW's going F2P" catalyst.  I did buy the game and tried it out.  I was unimpressed.  I went back to playing WoW.
 
Maybe you come from inside the system and weren't around to hear, but Guild Wars 1 is actually where NCSoft GOT that reputation for being Valu-Mart.
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Well, where to start:
 
FFXIV:ARR couldn't boast 4 million players either at first.  Certainly, FFXIV couldn't boast anything.  FFXIV:ARR was a complete redesign because SquareEnix completely, totally, and unequivocally screwed up.  Across the board.  You think Wildstar's in bad shape?  You've seen nothing.  FFXIV 1.0 was in bad shape.  Think the work Carbine's had to do was extensive?  FFXIV:ARR is a complete redesign of a vast majority of the game.  FFXIV:ARR was released as its own game, which meant that incoming players have to buy the game and then subscribe in.
 
How did they get from worse than Wildstar to better than Wildstar, when you assume that Wildstar can't do the same?  SquareEnix's reputation.  Final Fantasy isn't a set of interconnected games, the way WoW can claim.  FF is a franchise tag for SquareEnix.  And they came back and said, "Please buy this redesign of the game, we promise it's going to be better now!"  And people bought in.
 
Those four million people?  They didn't come from compromising their quality, it came from reclaiming it.  And that's why FFXIV:ARR can now say that they have a large subscribing population.  They worked for it.  HARD.  That game gets praise and I'll give it, too; if this game does go F2P they're on my list for my next stop.  SquareEnix, when everyone was shouting for them to take the easy way out, proved you can do the "impossible."  That's why their loyal fanbase will stick around.
 
You'll notice NCSoft didn't get that kind of support from anyone here. If they say that the game is getting better and they want everyone to come back, will the strength of their titles make you believe them? Unlike Square, Blizz, and CCP, NCSoft doesn't have that. Because NCSoft isn't a company known for quality. They simply aren't. People said NCSoft was Carbine's deal with the devil because NCSoft doesn't have a Final Fantasy, especially not here in the west.
<snip>
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I played Guild Wars 1.  It was the original "WoW's going F2P" catalyst.  I did buy the game and tried it out.  I was unimpressed.  I went back to playing WoW.
 
Maybe you come from inside the system and weren't around to hear, but Guild Wars 1 is actually where NCSoft GOT that reputation for being Valu-Mart.
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cough, GW1 and GW2, cough.
 
sometimes it is the developer's fault Vic....
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GW1 was always B2P game from the release just as GW2.
 
This game is missing players -- as in more than 2 people per zone and 50ish in main hub city, heck I saw a lot more people when I logged into GW2 "forming a line" and waiting for SAB to open than I saw all together in my first month here :o I'm even seing more people around in CBT/alpha/paid early access games than here. Do note that response to this is not get to 50 and there are people as I'm the new subscriber who paid the game and ... what now? Continue to pay monthly until I hit that magic level and start seeing someone around? Or, regardless how much I like the game, I can take my money away and give it to some other game who do have people to play with.
 
Why, no idea. Is it payment model, no idea. Will next expansion fix it, dunno -- but only thing I can tell that some drastic changes are needed or WS future will be grim.
 
(and this will get ignored just as any of the posts which tries to be non-inflamatory and constructive because it has "forbidden" words in them)
 
 
 
 
As a new player I can say that Mamatereza's story is one I'm seeing now -- emptines, 3-4 guild recruitment messages in total and those where for endgame raiding. So, yeah, I find it hard to find a reason to continue to spend my time on it when I can do something else (at least) equaly good with people around.
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I can agree ... to the point.
 
Yeah, FFXIV was big stinking pile of ... but SE had the ... to admit that, put it down for 2 years and reboot it into success which ARR is now. They did not pretend that everything is allright and that their decisions are "perfect" and that got them a great deal of the good will from the player base. Also, being SE (with their history and portfoilo) that was possible to happen, being a small studio with a first MMO ... much slimmer chance.
 
And no, there is no hate against NCsoft titles -- they are just publisher like anyone else, yeah they killed CoH (with better numbers than WS ATM IIRC) but that did not stopped me to buy and play GW2 or any other title they add if game is a good one and I had faith in the studio making it to produce game I want to put my time in it, ArenaNet, CCP and SE have it, Carbine not so much especially with current and future competition.
 
To repeat myself again -- I dont care about bussines model AT ALL -- I just want WS with the full servers, regular content updates and developers so loaded with the money that they start buying fighter jets to get to work just because they feel like it, but sad truth is that they dont have anything left (shutting down and relaunch?) to get players back except that (around here much hated) payment model change as they cannot compete in the same league as FFXIV and WOW right now (or ever) plain and simple.
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NCSoft has killed 8 MMOs.  MMOs with active and contributing players.  They have a bad reputation for a reason.  Two games from the same studio being the Golden Children of the publisher doesn't automatically make all other games shit, dude.  C'mon.
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I logged on TERA yesterday to check out the combat. Guess how many people I saw from 1-10? 3 people.
 
This is a completely free to play MMO btw.
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Except he plays on Dominion on PvP server intentionally to show people "ded game"
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this sums it up perfectly
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{| class="blockquote"
is Tera much better than Wildstar ?
never played it but i expect a similar fate.
Tera didn't survive with a sub either, did it?
I wonder if it would have done much better as a P2P.
anyway. it just goes to say: F2P will only give you "a second boost", but it won't make your game suddenly good or more appealing to a lot of players.
 
wildstar does need this second boost.
but i agree: when they are ready.
it could turn out good (like swtor) or die as a F2P.
but they won't have a 3rd chance.
it is only a matter of "when" at this point. and probably that the "when" is in less than a few months.
 
we will see!
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{| class="blockquote"
Allow me to disagree with your taste in games. In my opinion, GW was (is) a much better game than WoW will ever be.
 
And considering that we are talking about a game that was relased in 2005, got a few big expansions and managed to fund another successful game and it is still alive without ever getting into F2P (it was B2P with very limited shop), WS has a lot to learn from it.
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{| class="blockquote"
GW2's shop may be limited, but what they sell is rediculous.  You can basically buy gems from the shop and get in-game currency and basically craft your legendary doing nothing because you can just pay real money and make it by buying the mats instead of doing all the work for them.  Unless it is different now I don't know, but that is just dumb.
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{| class="blockquote"
Better a controlled market instead of gold sellers.
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{| class="blockquote"
I logged on TERA yesterday to check out the combat. Guess how many people I saw from 1-10? 3 people.
 
This is a completely free to play MMO btw. 50ish in main hub city? 50 is the max displayed. There could be 200 and you'd only see 50 on your /who window
 
Oh and TERA still sucks. Wildstar has definitely ruined all other MMOs for me. WTF I can't move while casting an ability? Wtf no double jump? Wtf no sprints? Well at least it sort of had dashes
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Now, how do the people trying out the 10 day trial know that?
 
Not many will browse the forums beforehand or after they experience the dead server. They would assume no one plays a "d3d game".
 
Carbine is just shooting themselves in the foot, if they think waiting for drop 5 -> end of year for a miracle wave of people flooding in
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Unfortunately that trade off also involves a measured amount of P2W.
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{| class="blockquote"
no it doesn't because the legendary is cosmetic
 
in wildstar.... you can sell credd and also buy things from the AH so that is also p2w according to your logic.
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You make it sounds like he installed the game and played it for 10 minutes.
He actively played the game till the mega servers you know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGNH9Rmt7Y
 
Also i did not found the video overall negative and as for reviews... well if someone will review wildstar now they will all mention the population as a negative point because that is simply the truth, you can not blame him for being honest.
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{| class="blockquote"
Legendaries are markedly better than Ascended as they can change stats and will always be updated to be at the top of the gear list.  They also have achievements tied to them.
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Running around a MMO with 3 people in it... no matter how great the MMO is, is a deal breaker for MMO players.
 
The fact he never mentioned free transfers to the populated server is suspicious. Cause he to know about it. He just didn't bother including it in his video for some reason
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point 1 and 2 won't change.
but i'm speaking out of the blue here and will say that they are not the main issue.
well, point 2 isn't.
 
point 1 can be, because the game is so linear, short, and have almost no replay value for alts.
but i think most people going thru it the first time can enjoy it (it won't be everybody, but most probably more players than what's left in the game at the moment would enjoy it)
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			I'd really like it if this thread were locked. Its title is generalized, unsubstantiated, and overly negative, and the discussion it contains isn't a whole lot better. I do appreciate Carbine allowing this kind of discussion rather than quashing it, but this particular thread is just kind of stupid.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Better by how much?
 
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_weapon
Legendary weapons are a set of high-end weapons that have unique appearances. They have the same stats as ascended weapons, however they also have functionality to allow their inherent stat combo to be changed to any other stat combo when out of combat.
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			I have rebooted my sub.....  But I cant play of course!!  The stupid 2 step authenticator has me locked out.  This is a huge issue.  People are NEVER going to populate this game if you make it impossible...  Waiting hours and hours for a simple response from customer support is excruciating.  I've already had time to contemplate "screw my 15 dollars..  I could just go play any other game I can actually play".  Thats baaaaad.  Your pop is sooooo low.  How could you ignore returning subscribers when they need you most?  Boooooooo.	
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{| class="blockquote"
<good points snipped>
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{| class="blockquote"
Actually, the biggest reason people might not sub (or even try the free trial) is because of PR lag.  An example:
 
My old WoW guild doesn't play Wildstar.  That's probably thirty or forty people who would really like to try the game, but won't even bother trying it for free.  You may think that has something to do with Wildstar, but it doesn't.  I post footage and screenshots from Wildstar all the time, and I do get people to try the game.  The old WoW guild, they LOVE the stuff I show them.  Housing is mouthwatering to an RP-raiding guild, and they loved when I posted a video of a STL normal run about six or seven months back.  They praise the visuals, the graphics, the gameplay, but they won't take the trial.
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That's another issue that must be addressed. Authenticator resets specially for resubs should be handled in a timely manner, about 24 hours because that can alienate players from staying long term.
 
But for people: authenticators aren't a joke. In the same way you are responsible for backing up your personal data, you are responsible for authenticators. If you change phones or Android roms regularly, you have to take precautions with the authenticator to ensure you don't lose any play time. Btw official OTA updates don't break authenticators (4.1 to 4.4...still loging), but wipe and flashing roms it does break them.
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,,, that's what I just said.
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{| class="blockquote"
I have rebooted my sub..... But I cant play of course!! The stupid 2 step authenticator has me locked out.
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{| class="blockquote"
That's another issue that must be addressed. Authenticator resets specially for resubs should be handled in a timely manner, about 24 hours because that can alienate players from staying long term.
 
But for people: authenticators aren't a joke. In the same way you are responsible for backing up your personal data, you are responsible for authenticators. If you change phones or Android roms regularly, you have to take precautions with the authenticator to ensure you don't lose any play time. Btw official OTA updates don't break authenticators (4.1 to 4.4...still loging), but wipe and flashing roms it does break them.
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{| class="blockquote"
That's another issue that must be addressed. Authenticator resets specially for resubs should be handled in a timely manner, about 24 hours because that can alienate players from staying long term.
 
 
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So I made a thread on another gaming forum that is probably one of the most well known about giving WS a shot.  Man o Man are the comments negative, it's either they don't like the game play design i.e hardcorness, which I said it's been toned down a lot, or they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better.  They did say if it goes B2P they would buy it and play it.
 
I'm trying here, lol	
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{| class="blockquote"
So I made a thread on another gaming forum that is probably one of the most well known about giving WS a shot.  Man o Man are the comments negative, it's either they don't like the game play design i.e hardcorness, which I said it's been toned down a lot, or they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better.  They did say if it goes B2P they would buy it and play it.
 
I'm trying here, lol
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{| class="blockquote"
wildstar is a cool game.
but not an epic one that merits its "sub" once you hit the endgame.
 
maybe if they put in a lot of work then can turn it around but ultimately i think too many pieces are missing or in the wrong place to make the game sub worthy over an extended period of time. (pyramidal, bottleneck issue, it tires people at endgame because they feel stuck in a corridor banging on a single door at the end just to open another corridor with another door at the end).
no shame in that. W* wouldn't be the first one to stop their sub fee....
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It's 15 dollars a month.  People will pick up a CoD game for sixty dollars and play it for maybe a month or two.  I still don't get what "worth a sub" means.  The only MMORPG not worth a sub is a game that's functionally worthless.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's 15 dollars a month.  People will pick up a CoD game for sixty dollars and play it for maybe a month or two.  I still don't get what "worth a sub" means.  The only MMORPG not worth a sub is a game that's functionally worthless.
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"Worth a sub" will vary wildly from person to person.  I love WS.  I love the gameplay.  I'm gonna pay for it to support the devs and show my good faith in the game.  Other people won't.  If I say it's worth a sub, others will disagree with me.
 
"Worth a sub" is a bad metric.
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{| class="blockquote"
"Worth a sub" will vary wildly from person to person.  I love WS.  I love the gameplay.  I'm gonna pay for it to support the devs and show my good faith in the game.  Other people won't.  If I say it's worth a sub, others will disagree with me.
 
"Worth a sub" is a bad metric.
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			Think this might be a bad time to mention that I just resubbed OP.  Yeeeeeeeeeah.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I just always thought it was sort of a weird statement.  It's 15 dollars a month.  If literally the only thing holding someone back from playing it is 15 dollars a month, then they don't want to play it.  It's like saying I don't eat at White Castle because it's not worth the money.  It's not like I don't pay more for other fast food, I just don't like a burger steamed over onions.  It's like saying I'd suddenly be there every day if the burgers were free but they were charging 10 dollars for a soda.
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hmm.
well. they can count the numbers of sub they currently have and check the retention percentage.
 
decent metric in my book.
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{| class="blockquote"
why do you think a clothing company do SALES and CLEARANCE ? because they can't sell their shit.
with a lower price tag... it might be able to sell some...
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Man do you not know how sales work.  Sales work because they can drastically overcharge for things and if they, say, introduce a 2.00 sale on a shirt, people will buy it and five other shirts.  Working in retail taught me a lot about how easy it is to manipulate people who don't know what they're looking for.
 
Avatar: exactly what the initial Wildstar marketing did.
 
 
 
Clearance is different.  They clearance things because they had overstock and they're moving something out.  That's entirely to clear rack space.  And, very often, it doesn't sell.  It's only done for some select items (some the vendor will buy back, some just expires, etc.).  Clearance sales will drop until the point where they're barely making money (never below that), because at that point they can put the shirt in a box and sell it to a clearing house or in a derivative store in another country.
 
Avatar: overstock is bad.
you want to be "out of stock" to create demand (but have a way to easily replenish fast).
wildstar is gathering dust on the shelves at the moment.
 
 
 
Hypothetical shirt?  They bought it in bulk for a dollar apiece-ish.  They'll sell it for twenty dollars.  The sale price might be seventeen dollars.  They won't sell it even at Clearance for lower than five dollars.  It's not "worth" any of those prices, they just know that if they cut off a few dollars someone will buy it even though three dollars might not cover the gas money it took to get there.
 
Retail is fun like that.
 
Avatar: i work for a clothing importer and wholesaler.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
{| class="blockquote"
Man do you not know how sales work.  Sales work because they can drastically overcharge for things and if they, say, introduce a 2.00 sale on a shirt, people will buy it and five other shirts.  Working in retail taught me a lot about how easy it is to manipulate people who don't know what they're looking for.
 
Avatar: exactly what the initial Wildstar marketing did.
 
 
 
Clearance is different.  They clearance things because they had overstock and they're moving something out.  That's entirely to clear rack space.  And, very often, it doesn't sell.  It's only done for some select items (some the vendor will buy back, some just expires, etc.).  Clearance sales will drop until the point where they're barely making money (never below that), because at that point they can put the shirt in a box and sell it to a clearing house or in a derivative store in another country.
 
Avatar: overstock is bad.
you want to be "out of stock" to create demand (but have a way to easily replenish fast).
wildstar is gathering dust on the shelves at the moment.
 
 
 
Hypothetical shirt?  They bought it in bulk for a dollar apiece-ish.  They'll sell it for twenty dollars.  The sale price might be seventeen dollars.  They won't sell it even at Clearance for lower than five dollars.  It's not "worth" any of those prices, they just know that if they cut off a few dollars someone will buy it even though three dollars might not cover the gas money it took to get there.
 
Retail is fun like that.
 
Avatar: i work for a clothing importer and wholesaler.
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{| class="blockquote"
wildstar is a cool game.
but not an epic one that merits its "sub" once you hit the endgame.
 
maybe if they put in a lot of work then can turn it around but ultimately i think too many pieces are missing or in the wrong place to make the game sub worthy over an extended period of time. (pyramidal, bottleneck issue, it tires people at endgame because they feel stuck in a corridor banging on a single door at the end just to open another corridor with another door at the end).
no shame in that. W* wouldn't be the first one to stop their sub fee....
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{| class="blockquote"
Well it's basically just raiding and once you have the end gear then the rest becomes less fun since you over gear it so you start an alt but this game isn't really that alt friendly.
Also the end content either is grinding the dailies zones or instances over and over again it becomes repetitive.
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{| class="blockquote"
high five
 
not alt friendly; because of QoL issue, but also because of "its the *cupcake* same story step by step".
 
 
but yeah, thats my issue with the game. bottleneck.
retarded modern mmo design (especially for a sub based).
 
but hey. who am i to talk? just another customer.
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GW2 did something right though and that is automatically scaling and it's actually not boring going back into low level zone because there are constantly quest poping up that you can still do.
In our guild we often roam around in lower zones exploring doing the jumping puzzles and now and again do the guild missions.
Then you also have wvw you can easily join and pvp that is actually decent and pops quickly.	
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jumping puzzles....I'll make sure I never play that game  :)
 
Can't really see the problem players have with alts in WS, I just change my path and it changes my game
 
 they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better  >>> NOTHING IS BETTER	
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{| class="blockquote"
So I made a thread on another gaming forum that is probably one of the most well known about giving WS a shot.  Man o Man are the comments negative, it's either they don't like the game play design i.e hardcorness, which I said it's been toned down a lot, or they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better.  They did say if it goes B2P they would buy it and play it.
 
I'm trying here, lol
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
jumping puzzles....I'll make sure I never play that game  :)
 
Can't really see the problem players have with alts in WS, I just change my path and it changes my game
 
 they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better  >>> NOTHING IS BETTER
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{| class="blockquote"
jumping puzzles....I'll make sure I never play that game  :)
 
Can't really see the problem players have with alts in WS, I just change my path and it changes my game
 
 they're not going to spend $15 a month for a game when there are so many options on the market that are just as good or better  >>> NOTHING IS BETTER
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I did say you could use Credd, but a people just don't like the game for one reason or another.  A lot of people said they couldn't get passed the boring questing and leveling process.
 
It seems a lot of people just don't like the older style game design (themepark) and just stick to WoW or FFXIV because those are the most popular sub based ones now.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Problem is the daily grind on the end again for amp and ability points and reputation.
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FtP no thanks. Makes for horrible community in my experience.
BtP, well I prefer subscription, but if that'll bring more players, as a last resort, then Y E S!	
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{| class="blockquote"
That was kinda fixed with the unlimited pvp amp/ability points. I don't have more than 2k rep with any of the daily zones and have max ability/amp points through eg/pvp/dungeons/path. It took me about 3-4 days to get 5 ability points in pvp. 
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