119366-treatise-pvepvp-server-idiosyncrasy-page-2

Page 1, Page 2
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
Idiosyncrasy, in this case, would extend to rewards.  In fact, though I didn't put this in, there's no reason not to turn the difficulty up on a PVE server as opposed to a PVP server to balance what you're talking about as long as world PVP is active.  What I hear right now is that, in fact, it's not harder to level on a PVP server because there's no ganking going on.  If open world PVP on the PVP servers does heat up, there's no reason not to add additional PVE difficulty to certain areas of the PVE server.  Separating the servers in minute ways can have very long-reaching impacts.
 
That's just a spitballed idea, though, I've got no details to add behind such a scheme yet.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This however feels more like a punishing the players of the PvE server instead of enticing them to join the PvP one. My suggestions are mostly on how to get players back to the PvP server.
 
If we all agree that playing on a PvP server is harder (an active PvP server for the sake of argument), and currently the rewards are identical between that and the easier to play PvE one.. why would players want to move?
 
There has to be an incentive.
----
			
Going to post a response here that I posted to another thread regarding the idea of faction changes.  Faction change isn't related to topic here, but the points I raised are something that I think go over many people's heads.
 
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Faction changes would go the same way that server transfers have gone - people don't trust that their populations will balance out, so they take that opportunity to converge into one area.  But if we want to look at this kind of thing in MMO's historically, none other than WoW hosts a better example.  Before PvE-to-PvP server transfers opened back in The Burning Crusade, the populations of PvE realms and PvP realms were fairly stable.  The problem in WoW became that - as online gamers tend to do - people wanted to experience e-fame vicariously through hardcore progression guilds and PvPers that had rolled on PvP servers.  The biggest factor today however is that people want to find groups and do everything faster, so changing and joining the larger population is the path of least resistance and most reward. 
And that's where the problem lies, and will hold true in WildStar over time if faction change becomes a thing.  Most players aren't generous enough to faction change for the sake of helping the lower population - they're concerned about their own enjoyment of the game.  The disparity would only grow as players took the path of least resistance and more and more went Exile.  Look at Illium vs. Jabbit as a good example of what happens when players are allowed to self-congregate.  While it would be a much slower process, you end up with examples such as WoW's mega-faction servers like Illidan where you see 98% Horde.  It was a problem that added services were intended to help, but the solution ended up compounding those issues instead.
 
So in summation, be careful what you wish for. There are many factors at play, but player psychology has historically lended to faction disparity only growing.  It's instant gratification and immediate award of a larger player pool to play and group with vs. waiting and trusting that you'll be rewarded.  Most players want to see change immediately, as you can see given the amount of posts here demanding answers for things that take time on a daily basis.
 
The issue isn't a snowball effect from how transfers previously worked - it's an issue of risk vs. reward, and if the transfers were open both ways then as they were now, the result would have been the same
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not really punishing them, it's just a simple statement.  If you're on a PVP server, your rewards should be geared in that direction and your server can be tuned as such.  If you're on a PVE server, it's assumed you're there because you like PVE.  PVP is not naturally harder as a model than PVE is, PVP has a self-regulating bell curve of difficulty.  If playing on a PVP server is more difficult, surely the improvement on the PVE side lays with making the PVE more intense, to take the place of player characters.
 
The rewards should be the same.  Increasing rewards on the PVP server but not the PVE server actually does punish PVE players for playing on a server type that doesn't force them to do something they don't want to do.  If the chasm in difficulty is truly that substantial, the answer is to rebalance the difficulty to make playing on a PVE server just as difficult as a PVP one.  Add more roaming packs of mobs that don't exist on the PVP side or increase the telegraph speed.
 
I think the important part of the treatise is that the incentive for playing on a PVP or PVE server is, respectively, that you like PVP or PVE.
----
			Makes me smile to see posts that are well thought out and not raging for no reason. Thank you mate! Great ideas here!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are however players that like both PvE and PvP content and for them the PvE server is the better choice as it is now. The reason is the same as in my previous post.. you get the same rewards for less hassle. :mellow:
 
I am not saying that it is the best solution and I understand that this creates differences between the two servers, but something has to change. The idea of adding roaming packs of mobs (as good as it may be), is not an easy Bandaid. Giving rewards and increasing the XP rate seems as a much easier idea to implement and influence a shift.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you're on a PVE server, it's assumed you're there because you like PVE.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Idiosyncrasy, in this case, would extend to rewards.  In fact, though I didn't put this in, there's no reason not to turn the difficulty up on a PVE server as opposed to a PVP server to balance what you're talking about as long as world PVP is active.  What I hear right now is that, in fact, it's not harder to level on a PVP server because there's no ganking going on.  If open world PVP on the PVP servers does heat up, there's no reason not to add additional PVE difficulty to certain areas of the PVE server.  Separating the servers in minute ways can have very long-reaching impacts.
 
That's just a spitballed idea, though, I've got no details to add behind such a scheme yet.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think you've drawn the right conclusion.  IMO, it's your tolerance for ganking.  Some people really like the kill-and-be-killed environment and others don't.  It really has nothing to do with how much you like controlled PvP.  Heck some of the PvP proposals you suggested sound like they'd be a fun thing to do on the PvE server.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Increase the reward would be better i think, increase the amount of xp, reputation and renown you get and make drop rate slightly to compensate for the time lost with open world pvp.
 
At the moment on Luminai it is hard to do the 20 man content they should change the reward on that a lot or else we will never be beloved.
We are currently often 5 manning most 20 man quest and it is easier then you think but the event in defile has a timer :/
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
-Offer a package of level 50 PvP gear to all transfers for a limited time.
-Lower the cost of PvP gear on the PvP servers. It should be more easily accessible there.
-Drastically increase the XP benefits of leveling through PvP when playing on a PvP server. For example the housing buff should be at 50% instead of 5.
-Make all the practice BGs queues to be common between levels 6-49.
-Make dyes and mounts to be account based and offer different rewards in the PvP servers. Entice more PvE players to be part of a PvP server.
 
PvP servers need love right now. Hope they get it. :)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but if your goal is to balance the two servers, I think the idea of increasing rewards only on PVP servers and increasing the XP rate are not simply ineffective, they're counterproductive.  Your argument is that the reason there is a disparity is because PVP servers offer greater risks with no additional rewards is somewhat valid, if we're assuming a more active PVP situation.  However, as PVP is a rather voluntary thing even on a PVP server (people don't technically HAVE to kill each other on a PVP server) and can be surmounted by working in numbers, you're essentially increasing the reward with no guarantee of risk where that is not a possibility on the PVE server.  As much as I'm trying to help the PVP servers here, the proposal is meant to benefit all.
 
However, increasing the PVE difficulty by any means (introducing more mobs is just one idea, introducing more primes, more 5-mans, more random PVE encounters, traps, et al are also possibilities), equalizes the servers naturally.  Then, they can have equal, if differing, rewards for equal, if differing, difficulty.  Those challenges can be surmounted in similar ways, traveling in groups or avoiding the difficult mobs.  You have equitable difference in this case, not compensatory difference.  Compensatory measures will only change the idea of what server you should roll on to maximize your rewards, not create an atmosphere where you decide your server type based on your server preference, which is the goal.
 
That means that PVP players will get PVP world elements and rewards on their server while not receiving PVE world elements and rewards their PVE playing counterparts have, and vice versa.  This encourages two behaviors, either people will choose their server based on what they want to actually do, or people truly excited about both will level on both servers depending on their mood.  That means that, at worst, people will align with like-minded players instead of choosing a mechanically beneficial system (at least in as many cases as possible), and at best players will essentially double their server presence by appearing on both servers intermittently to engage in both types of open world content.
 
Turning up the difficulty on the PVE server to make the servers equivalent simply seems more effective than turning up the rewards on the PVP server if we're not trying to intentionally favor one above the other.
----
			
Ah my bad.
 
Although I don't think reverting back to one-way-restriction is a good idea.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Instead of spending resources in making the PvE servers more challenging, shouldn't the focus be on the PvP servers and how to bring more players there?
 
Of course they need to intentionally favor the PvP servers at this point (I thought that was already commonly accepted as something necessary by now).
 
There was already a one way transfer from PvP to PvE that changed the population balance. That needs to change and perhaps the easiest and more direct approach is by offering something valuable enough that will make players want to return.
 
If not this, then I cannot think of something that will be easy and fast enough to provide a quick fix in a better way.
 
Complicated solutions will need time.
 
 
 
I had already answered that just two lines above the part that you quoted. Before rewards are introduced, the two way transfers have to stop.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
See, that's why I wrote this.  I don't think that PVP servers need to be favored at all.  If I learned anything from the survey I conducted, it's not that people aren't enjoying PVP when it happens, it's just not worth the drawbacks of server population at the moment and it isn't well rewarded.  While it might be tempting to then say, "Well, just fluff the PVP servers so it makes more sense to be there," I don't think that's a good solution either, for the reasons I enumerated.
 
That's part of why this took so long to figure out.  I don't like easy answers, I like good ones.  Hence the idea to get people onto the PVP server without inadvertently punishing the PVE server is to do what the server types are supposed to do, make sure the servers host PVE and PVP players.  If PVP players are on a PVE server for convenience's sake, I don't see an issue of compensation, I see people selecting a server type they don't prefer because there is no difference.
 
Honestly, if people really want to be on a PVP server, and new changes are introduced to make the PVP server different from the PVE server without taking a baseball bat to the players who legitimately want to play on a PVE server, players will return.  Setting up non-endgame rewards won't bring back raiding guilds, so you're talking about giving people essentially free rewards at level 50 without solving the core problem, that world PVP isn't happening.  Nobody said they didn't like leveling on a PVP server specifically because PVP made leveling too hard in my survey that I know of.
 
I understand your reasoning, but the simple fact is that what you're proposing won't solve the basic core of the problem and will *cupcake* off a LOT of current players.  Not only would the PVE players who legitimately like PVE suddenly feel like NCSoft crippled them for being too successful as a server, but you're talking about essentially turning the PVP server into a trap where people can come in, but if they don't like it they can't go back (the entire rationale behind why two-way transferring was opened in the first place, but vice versa).
 
Hence the OP.  I think it's the only way that everyone comes out ahead in this situation.  The PVE players get more to do on their server, the PVP players get more to do on their server, there's an incentive for especially well-rounded people to roll on both to see how the other side lives, world content experiences a jump, nobody loses anything in this proposal and nobody suffers at the expense of anyone else.  Pretty much everyone wins this way.  The PVP server will regain players if there's actual PVP going on, and the PVE players don't feel like anything made for them is a complete waste of development time because they get something as well.
 
The only way this doesn't work is if no one actually wants to world PVP and everyone prefers the group PVE content, which I don't get the impression of.  You don't have to force people onto the PVP server with a bad taste in their mouth; I don't think that's especially productive in making either the PVP servers or Wildstar in general a big draw.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, I think that is our difference at this point as I feel they need to favor the PvP servers.
 
I already consider the PvE server to have had favored results from all the circumstances, which yes, were unintentional. Not only did the one way transfers worked as a trap in the first place, but it created a hole in the PvP servers that simply scares new players and prevents growth.
The balance has already been tipped and fair treatment between the two server from this point onward will not be effective in tipping the scales back. It needs a push, which might upset PvE players just like it upset the PvP players originally.
 
I like all the ideas suggested in the OP but they will need time to pass through all the stages and finally get released. Something needs to happen sooner.
 
That is why I like the concept of a quick bandaid solution before anything else and providing rewards and bonuses is the simplest way to do it. Of course it does not solve core problems, but that is not the nature of a bandaid either way.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's why I think the daily quest that prioritizes PVP on the PVP server and PVE on the PVE server is a better bandaid solution, though.  You can give out the same rewards, but it will divide people along the lines you'd want them divided on more naturally.  A trend on that survey was that everyone wanted more world PVP, but it both had no rewards and wasn't happening spontaneously.  You can keep relatively equivalent rewards and yet still make sure that people who want to PVP go back to the PVP server.
 
I'm not sure why that kind of server differentiation isn't more common.  The PVP server could really use its playerbase to log in thinking, "I'll be finding and killing X number of players today."  No reason to not have the PVE players doing likewise on rares, 5 mans, and 20 man bosses, so you don't have to discriminate.  That'd bring hellfire and brimstone down because, remember, there are a core of players who have zero interest in world PVP that really want to be on a PVE server.
 
Now, in that vein, I'm not entirely against them being tuned differently to compensate for the differences.  I don't necessarily have a problem saying that you need to kill ten people on the PVP server and ten 5-mans, 20 man events, or world bosses (or their equivalent) on the PVE server despite the latter taking longer.  I do think it would be totally counterproductive to try suddenly favoring the PVP servers because A:  at worst you just *cupcake* off a lot of players you can't really afford to *cupcake* off and B:  at best you create the exact same problem in reverse, with people forced to be on a server type they don't favor.  Neither is a good outcome, short or long term, for NCSoft.  What Carbine needs to do is be effective, and the only way to do that is to sort people onto their preferred server type by what they want to do.
 
That's why I recommended the bandaid I did.  I thought about pure improvements to world PVP across both servers, but that would be both absolutely useless for a large chunk of the playerbase and won't solve the problem.  Inserting idiosyncratic dailies that encourage world PVP and PVE respectively, with similar rewards, actually does begin addressing the core problem of the servers becoming more of a mechanical choice than a playstyle preference.
----
			
Look guys, I just want to make a few things clear here.
 
World PvP isn't active in this game for 2 major reasons: 
1.  The classes are very unbalanced, as well as the damage / healing modifiers in Open World.
2.  The latency / netcode issues in World PvP make it nigh impossible to land skills as a melee.
 
I freaking love World PvP in just about any game, and I've done it a lot here.  I'll be honest with you though, it's pretty miserable to participate in given the problems above.  If you'll notice there too, none of those problems are lack of incentive.
So reiterating yet again, the PvP in this game is a bad place, thus the PvP server in this game is in a bad place.
 
I hope this sheds some light on why I have a very interesting attitude in almost all of my posts. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The more I read about the separate PvP and PvE dailies as an idea, the more I like it. The problem is that it is not something that can be added to the game fast enough. At best I see it being added in several months from now.
 
Still a good idea but that is a month too many.
 
Even if these dailies do get added (lets say in 4-5 months from now, after creating them and testing them), how difficult would it be to find people on the PvP server to complete them? The demand cannot create the supply in this case (imho).
A different, more direct approach is needed to prepare the PvP server for these changes to be effective. Adding rewards and XP bonuses does not require months of preparation and the PvP servers need a quick solution before anything else can be introduced.
 
A common care package for servers that drop below a certain percentage of players, PvE or PvP, means that you are not favoring a type of server but rather trying to address a decrease in population. But yes, the point is to help the PvP servers at this time.
----
			
I think having world pvp with objectives helps a bit with that if they're not so much oriented around body count, such as transporting materials being the focus or capping points, etc...which kinda slows or mitigates movement a bit allowing more leniency with hitting a character. This isn't to say it resolves the issue entirely as good example of this can be seen in BGs, but you tend to see a warrior doing much better at an objective or on a carrier/carrier protector, than in the open field due to the movement limitations imposed by the centralized objective.
 
Moving to the technical aspect I feel like balance issues would be more easier to do if spells had duality to them in which they do not scale or act in the same way they do in PvP and PvE. So a Rampage will only hit for X in PvP but hit a Y in PvE, if possible lag compensating range/width could be done on top of this as well to assist with aiming where needed(in particular melee). WAR had the same issue with melee for awhile, but it was mitigated when they put a smidgen(not a lot) of more range on the abilities they had to compensate for lag and it may be something to consider doing here. 
 
However that's not a complete solution in and of itself and would gather that hit registration updates needs some tweaking for the long term.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Look guys, I just want to make a few things clear here.
 
World PvP isn't active in this game for 2 major reasons:
 
1.  The classes are very unbalanced, as well as the damage / healing modifiers in Open World.
2.  The latency / netcode issues in World PvP make it nigh impossible to land skills as a melee.
 
I freaking love World PvP in just about any game, and I've done it a lot here.  I'll be honest with you though, it's pretty miserable to participate in given the problems above.  If you'll notice there too, none of those problems are lack of incentive.
So reiterating yet again, the PvP in this game is a bad place, thus the PvP server in this game is in a bad place.
 
I hope this sheds some light on why I have a very interesting attitude in almost all of my posts. 
----
			
I want to make a quick point about wPvP.
 
When I was playing WoW during the vanilla/BC heyday, wPvP was initially incidental to leveling, and later, although groups organized for some specific locations (TM/SS), it still had a lot to do with there being enough people in the zones leveling to cause a ruckus. wPvP was very fun because it was often impromptu and frequently involved characters from all level brackets participating to help one another out, or just put the hurt on some hated enemies. I used to participate in the "race to 50" subgenre of MMO gaming that is almost exclusive to WoW's many server launches, and I played only on PVP servers back then. My absolute favourite thing to do in WoW at that time (this is before I raided or ran BC heroics) was to go into lower level zones to protect my brethren. It was thrilling to know that there would be plenty of levelers in the world, and therefore many hunters looking for a quick thrill assassination. It was really an entirely different game from the MMO experience I've had over the last five or so years.Now, this isn't obviously the wPvP of a GW2 game. But I think it was the best wPvP I've ever experienced, and is well-known as such to others. But the problem is that Wildstar doesn't have enough levelers, or possibly the right kind of locations (I find the maps very cluttered), to support this kind of wPvP.
 
This is pure speculation, but I felt like adding it to the well. Actively leveling population and some clearer, more wPvP-centric environments would probably do more than any other suggestion to kickstart wPvP on Nexus.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I want to make a quick point about wPvP.
 
When I was playing WoW during the vanilla/BC heyday, wPvP was initially incidental to leveling, and later, although groups organized for some specific locations (TM/SS), it still had a lot to do with there being enough people in the zones leveling to cause a ruckus. wPvP was very fun because it was often impromptu and frequently involved characters from all level brackets participating to help one another out, or just put the hurt on some hated enemies. I used to participate in the "race to 50" subgenre of MMO gaming that is almost exclusive to WoW's many server launches, and I played only on PVP servers back then. My absolute favourite thing to do in WoW at that time (this is before I raided or ran BC heroics) was to go into lower level zones to protect my brethren. It was thrilling to know that there would be plenty of levelers in the world, and therefore many hunters looking for a quick thrill assassination. It was really an entirely different game from the MMO experience I've had over the last five or so years.
 
Now, this isn't obviously the wPvP of a GW2 game. But I think it was the best wPvP I've ever experienced, and is well-known as such to others. But the problem is that Wildstar doesn't have enough levelers, or possibly the right kind of locations (I find the maps very cluttered), to support this kind of wPvP.
 
This is pure speculation, but I felt like adding it to the well. Actively leveling population and some clearer, more wPvP-centric environments would probably do more than any other suggestion to kickstart wPvP on Nexus.
----
			
What if we get players incentivised to feeling that they're on a pvp server from the get-go? We all remember when the game first launched how everyone was hearing about Whitevale pvp: hoping they had enough people to quest through it together and kill the enemy that was around or that there were higher levels in the area to help protect them. It was fun, and while helping a lower level guildie through these areas I no longer feel the urgency or excitement that this real introduction to wPvP provided back then, which adds to that dead feeling.
 
What if, starting in one of the two starter-zones for Exile and Dominion there were an event that occured every 2hrs automatically, that introduced the player to the factions present later in the game and they were required within that zone of the map to kill NPCs that were like real players. They would be similar to lower level versions of the War of the Wilds champions, and part of either the FCON or Shatterforce. Players earn an equivilent to lvl 15 pvp gear, one piece at a time for completing these the first time within say, a 12hr period. Every other time completed could be durational and non-dispellable upon death buffs like 2hrs exp buff, 2hrs prestige buff etc. This would only apply to players under 15, but would give them rewards for time spent. Have a similar event occur in every zone up until Farside.
 
By the time players are in Wilderrun there should be faction wars for specific hubs within the zone, that provide extended buffs similar to a setter station. Treat this like resource nodes in Daggerstone Pass and Warplots. Require several class paths to work together to build it, and have it be something that can be damaged and defended for a duration of time.
 
Build Malgrave up to the the warzone it intends to be. There's tank traps and barbed wire all over the village and base areas, make the map have strategic points which much be captured to provide faction buffs. Have a set time every 3 days that the map becomes 'live'. Every area of the zone except R-12 areas should be considered for this. Capture of each point provides the faction specific buffs for those 3 days, and overall capture of the most nodes gives a bigger bonus to the entire faction only. Ie 4 capture points: Point 1= 5% Exp boost in Malgrave Point 2: 10% Loot Drop Boost in Malgrave  Point 3: No Duration Damage to EQ in Malgrave  Point 4: 500 Malgrave Expidetion Reputation Each Day X NPC is clicked during occupation, Overall Bonus:  X Faction overall recieves 10% Exp Boost (that will carry into EP/EG, and will work with pots/buffs) for those 3 days. Participants should recieve some sort of loot bag. Everyone loves shinies, and everyone wants a gold star.
 
I suggest these and do not consider them all to be perfect or what should happen, consider them placeholder options. Once into Whitevale these events should then branch into kill quests daily, that provide exp, loot, and/or faction rep. I also feel that some incentive should be given to balance out the faction populations. We are now one server and more often than not in the open world there are 10x as many exiles than Dominion.	
----
			
There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread. PvP needs serious help to entice people to take part in it more.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Make the rewards enticing but also please restrict the transfers to be one way.
Here are some general ideas:
 
-Offer a package of level 50 PvP gear to all transfers for a limited time.
-Lower the cost of PvP gear on the PvP servers. It should be more easily accessible there.
-Drastically increase the XP benefits of leveling through PvP when playing on a PvP server. For example the housing buff should be at 50% instead of 5.
-Make all the practice BGs queues to be common between levels 6-49.
-Make dyes and mounts to be account based and offer different rewards in the PvP servers. Entice more PvE players to be part of a PvP server.
 
PvP servers need love right now. Hope they get it. :)
----