Report 416

Report #416
Skillset: Shofangi Skill: Crunch
 Org: Shofangi Status: Rejected Jul 2010
Furies' Decision:
We will review writhing from monk grapples with contort.
Problem: Crunch used to be used as an instakill, but it currently has been
rendered useless due to anyone with a simple system being able to writhe out of
all monk grapples before the monk can regain balance. After locking someone's
head in a grapple and having her not writhe, I tried the ability: it didn't work
the first time. Nor the second, nor the third. In fact, I had to keep grappling
her head and trying all over again everytime I failed.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Turn Crunch into a modifier for Stomp, giving it the
 chance to crush the skull if stomping the head at 4
 momentum with chances increasing the more head wounds
 someone has. If used under 4 momentum, it would only
 increase wounds to the head. If used with 0 wounds to
 the head, it wouldn't land.
Player Comments:
---[Lehki on 7/4 @ 05:50 writes]:
What would the chance be at 0 wounds? And how much wounds would you need to get
up to for it to be a very high or 100% to work?
---[Sadie on 7/4 @ 18:44 writes]:
Well...I was testing various wounding forms out with someone. We tried different
ways: first with him not curing, I worked my way up to 5 momentum using only
head-targetted forms. The result was somewhere really close to Medium: 950 or so
wounds, and another time it went up to a thousand. Then I told him to cure his
wounds as I went, and worked myself up to five momentum, getting him to pause
just before I hit the last form. His wounds were significantly lower: 560 or so.
If at 0 wounds, I already said in the solution: The modifier simply wouldn't
have any chance to hit.
---[Xenthos on 7/5 @ 05:16 writes]:
What happened to fixing the greenlock problem?
---[Geb on 7/13 @ 03:58 writes]:
I don't seem to be able to writhe out of monk grapples before they recover if
they use the speed mod. The only people that seem to be able to writhe out those
grapples before the speed mod using monk recovers balance is those with
contortion. Also Xenthos has a point, Shofangi really do not need an insta-kill
upgrade until something is done about the ease at which Shofangi can slit-lock a
person over and over. I know this from experience, because I was able to do it
with ease as one.
---[Sadie on 7/14 @ 05:14 writes]:
This report is about Crunch. The speed mod does help, and I can often get my
balance back before they writhe when I use it, but even when I manage to pull
Crunch off, the skill is so lousy that it takes ten tries to work - therefore
the reason for this report. In an actual fight, I don't think it would be
efficient to see a monk just grappling your head over and over and trying to
slam it down on his knee without any effect, until he gets lucky and it works,
instead of actually trying to fight you in other ways. There's pretty much no
fun in combat with that, not to mention it's inefficient. This proposed solution
makes it so that you actually have to build up wounds in order to pull off the
kill. At Medium wounds your chance could be 10% for it to work or so. At Heavy,
chances would spike to 45%, and at Critical, they'd go up even more. Due to
building wounds being so hard for monks, I'd say this sounds pretty fair.
---[Xenthos on 7/15 @ 00:16 writes]:
Right, that's what this report is about -now-. When it started it was about the
slitlock problem. Which I was on board with fixing. I'm just wondering why it
switched.
---[Xenthos on 7/15 @ 00:17 writes]:
Since the slitlock problem is far more serious than this one!
---[Xenthos on 7/15 @ 00:23 writes]:
Essentially, I suppose I'm a little annoyed by us being told to put up an Envoy
fix for the perma-slitlock problem by Sior, you putting up a report, other
people doing other reports, and then you switching to something else (without
commenting until after you'd finalized and others had as well). Which delays
fixing it by a month. :/ Honestly, that's the more serious problem Shofangi
has going for it right now, and it's tough to talk about -upgrading- it when
that's already on the table and not getting addressed, to my mind. Sorry for
the previous two comments, I should've just done it all-together, but this's
where my frustration stems from!
---[Sadie on 7/15 @ 17:11 writes]:
If I 'fix' this problem you talk of, the Shofangi potentially get rendered a lot
less effective than they already are now, and I'd have to wait -at least- a
month to see they have better options.
---[Xenthos on 7/15 @ 22:08 writes]:
So the solution in this case might have been to say, "You know, I need to do
this as well-- how about we use two slots to try to get some balance?" instead
of... misleading us like this. I doubt it was intentional, but that's just the
way it's turned out, and I'd much rather see the slitlock issue fixed before or
-alongside- Shofangi changes, but not after.
---[Raeri on 7/16 @ 08:06 writes]:
I'd have liked to see this after the slitlock issue is addressed. Complaints
about difficulties building wounds is voided when the target is greenlocked
(because obviously, they can't cure). As it is, medium wound state (400, isn't
it?) + prone basically means once a Shofangi reaches mo5 (or maybe even mo4),
they can hit the 10% insta chance against any target without wounds at will
(since they can do paralysis/prone, and probably senso/slitthroat in the same
form as the crunch (275 ka from the AB?). I think that the percentage chances of
death need to be looked at, at the respective wound states (it's like a 5 times
easier version of behead at the moment), if this is implemented. (And I don't
see how people should be normal-writhing out of the grapple with that aslaran
level 2 balance bonus. That said, I do agree with Sadie that Crunch does needs
to change. )
---[Raeri on 7/16 @ 08:07 writes]:
Just to add - I don't think Shofangi should lose greenlock capability
completely.
---[Raeri on 7/20 @ 08:50 writes]:
On a more constructive note, if the problem is that writhing makes it unwieldy,
could you not make it a grapple *starter* instead, akin to how kata choke works?
Throw in heavy blunt damage, raise the ka cost on it (so you can only do it at
mo4/5) and/or have it drop 2mo. Possible fractureskull afflict upon failing?
Give it the scaling wound requirement mentioned here. Then voila, working insta.
I think crunch is one of the more flavoursome skills in Shofangi, personally - I
really think it'd be a shame to reduce it to a mere stomp modifier.
---[Raeri on 7/22 @ 11:26 writes]:
I also found a comment by Nejii on a forum thread ("I was bored again, and...",
thread id:17067, towards the end) from Feb '09 stating that Crunch already had a
minimum wound threshold of sorts. Perhaps look into that as a comparison when
considering minimum wound states for success chance?
---[Sadie on 7/23 @ 14:17 writes]:
That does not help Crunch at all. As it is now, it rarely works due to the
current low success rate. That is the -very- reason I wanted to up it so it has
a chance to actually pull off. It's already a feat to grapple and pull off the
Crunch part as I previously explained. The success rate for it makes it nearly
impossible to work in combat.
---[Raeri on 7/24 @ 03:37 writes]:
I suppose if you really wanted to level the insta with the other monk guilds,
could slot in a new 1500ka skill at Trans Shofangi, that afflicts with
disembowel.
---[Sahmiam on 7/28 @ 08:31 writes]:
I'm not positive that Burst Organs and Disembowel have the same timer or not,
but assuming that they do (or even don't), the ease that Shofangi can hardlock
would make them very capable of insta-killing anyone. Ninjakari's burst organs,
when it's successful, immediately follows a greenlock the majority of the time.
Unlike the Ninjakari, however, Shofangi aren't dependent on two poisons procing
(and let's not forget how easy the greenlock is) and would gain an insta that is
extremely easy to pull off.