142753-wildstar-not-pay-to-win

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ok so ( rune extraction ) doesn't this affect end game....by witch i mean once you get new gear you extract the runes from ur current gear to upgrade to the better gear you just got???.....so what if you are raiding/running dungeon you get this new gear but you don't have the runes to do it so you have to extract the runes from your old gear to put in ur new gear....ok so thats gonna cost plat or tokens ( and from what i hear alot of them both ) what happens when you dont have the token/plat to do this.....OK so i know some people are gonna say well they give you omnibits you can use those well sure but there a ( soft ) cap on these and like i said before rune extraction like everything else in Wildstar cost alot so if im stuck and don't wanna wait it out to get my gear rune to keep up with the people around me so that i can stay competitive in raids/dungeon im left with the option to buy my way to the top ........PLZ tell me how is that not pay to win?????
 
 
Plz if im missing something can someone explain it to me.......i really love this game so far iv put some money into it id love to keep playing but once i came across this and if you add all the other mistake they made with this game going f2p ......example Holo wardrobe let make you pay to dye and change pay twice for ur gear changes i mean fine you wanna make us pay to change i can deal with that comeing fom GW2 for the last 2 years ( with them you pay to change the look of ur gear not for dyeing though ).............but comon id like to have been in the meeting with the dummy that said hey i got an idea lets make these fools pay to put the look in the holo wardrobe then make them pay again to use it........Really ( Carbine )........Really???
 
anyway thats off topic sorry.....im not sure if there other topic covering any of this i didn't look i just wated to speak my mind on this topic plz let me know what you guys think if anything at all
 
 
 
stay shiny :)
			
				
	Edited October 12, 2015 by iceypenguin	
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			Is there a cap on Omnibits? I thought there was just a Softcap on the  weekly bonus but not a hardcap on overall what you can earn?	
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Pay to win means the only way to get top gear (PvP or PvE) is to pay to obtain it. Or to otherwise pay to get a very unfair advantage. Paying to extract your runes is not really paying to win due to the fact that the set-up can be obtained without paying. (Even if one has to wait.) The fact that it can be done in-game just as easily as with real world currency means it is not pay-2-win.
 
In terms of rune extration, you are paying to save time. Not for an advantage that can only be obtained through real word currency.
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			Pay to win means the only way to get top gear (PvP or PvE) is to pay to obtain it. Or to otherwise pay to get a very unfair advantage. Paying to extract your runes is not really paying to win due to the fact that the set-up can be obtained without paying. (Even if one has to wait.) The fact that it can be done in-game just as easily as with real world currency means it is not pay-2-win.In terms of rune extration, you are paying to save time. Not for an advantage that can only be obtained through real word currency.	
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Is there a cap on Omnibits? I thought there was just a Softcap on the  weekly bonus but not a hardcap on overall what you can earn?
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OP has a point. While this isn't what we think of as traditional "pay to win" ... what it is, honestly, is near extortion of the player base.
 
This is almost the same issue as the dyes in the thread below.
 
By making the cost almost prohibitively high, Carbine is hoping that the desire to remain competitive is greater than your patience, and thus, you'll drop money on Service Tokens in order to bypass farming up the unreasonable amount of gold it requires.
 
Dyeing is the same way. By locking us out of our extensive dye collections at low levels, we have to wait until we've farmed up other dyes at 50, where the cost is disgustingly exorbitant. So again, go farm gold or pay cash. If we had our dyes at level 1, then we could make our costumes for CRAPLOADS less gold - but that would defeat the desire to not get raked over the coals just to change the color of our gear.
 
Yeah, the more I start paying attention to the details, the more I am not liking the direction this payment model is taking - especially as a long-time subscriber who doesn't appreciate having to foot the bill so the Freebots can play along without spending a dime.	
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Pay to win means the only way to get top gear (PvP or PvE) is to pay to obtain it. Or to otherwise pay to get a very unfair advantage. Paying to extract your runes is not really paying to win due to the fact that the set-up can be obtained without paying. (Even if one has to wait.) The fact that it can be done in-game just as easily as with real world currency means it is not pay-2-win.
 
In terms of rune extration, you are paying to save time. Not for an advantage that can only be obtained through real word currency.
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Paying to extract needed runes like exceptionals and set runes is pay to win.  It causes a situation where someone who puts out real money will have a progression advantage over someone who does not.  This is not only a time played problem as service tokens are soft capped with Omnibits causing a 4 week grind to get the number needed to be able to remove a set if you get an upgrade for that slot.
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Yes, this is very, very close to the P2W line. And they are changing it.
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140151-f2p-update-economy-and-tradeskills-100915/	
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Paying to rush isn't pay-to-win... well in my definition.
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ok i understand this but....how is it a fair deal for someone to be able to pay to get there first......i don't know i just think this is a really bad way to do this there are plenty of other way to make money with a f2p title this just seems like a good way to push people out of ur game and i guess if there just in it for the quick money to get people in the game thats fin but i would gather they wont people in it for the long hall and i really do think when people start running in to this and they cant upgrade there gear with out paying something extra i think there gonna start turning from this game there is just to many option out there and i think that would be sad cause this is a good game its fun......and fyi this problem is gonna hit the f2p and p2p the same 
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We may have to backtrack and define what we consider pay-to-win. It is apparently used as a blanket term to cover a wide range of different meanings. The original complaint was time based less than person a getting something person b cannot get without paying. But rather doing something instantly as opposed to spending time to do the same thing. For me time savers do not count as a pay-to-win anymore than someone having ten more hours to play the game giving them an unfair advantage in pvp.
 
Again, this depends on our point of view. If person a is capable of doing something in less time than person b it doesn't make it pay to win. If person b doesn't have the time, or want to spend the time, farming things they need... it does not make it pay-to-win if someone else does have the time to farm the things they need.
 
For me pay-to-win means you pay for access to something that cannot be obtained in game that gives a statistical boost that is not available in the game. This means food that gives stats you cannot obtain in-game without paying. Equipment that surpasses everything you can get in-game at that level without paying, and so forth. Pay-to-win once meant that the only way to WIN (be the best of the best) was if you paid out. That is not the case in Wildstar under that concept of pay-to-win.
 
Paying to rush isn't pay-to-win... well in my definition.
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We may have to backtrack and define what we consider pay-to-win.
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Yeah, the more I start paying attention to the details, the more I am not liking the direction this payment model is taking - especially as a long-time subscriber who doesn't appreciate having to foot the bill so the Freebots can play along without spending a dime.
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Yes, this is very, very close to the P2W line. And they are changing it.
 
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/140151-f2p-update-economy-and-tradeskills-100915/
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			It amazes me how many people in this thread who now think the game is P2W for providing the ability to accelerate progress with cash didn't feel that way at all when CREDD allowed players to do the exact same thing.	
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anyway thats off topic sorry.....im not sure if there other topic covering any of this i didn't look i just wated to speak my mind on this topic plz let me know what you guys think if anything at all
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....You are complaining that the game(a friggin MMORPG) is taking too much time to get what you want...*flips table* 
 
Your argument is countered by this bit on you tube.
 
"Why can't we get vast,open world entertainment for the low cost of...free?!"
			
				
	Edited October 12, 2015 by xRaymanx	
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			Love the people (fanboys) that in every game when something that is pay 2 win is discussed try to blur the meaning of p2w, like "oh no, p2w means this and not this" LOL, its like they have no brain at all and cant use logic BUT THATS NOT IT, they in fact know its p2w but they EXPECT that you are so DUMB that you will fall for the "its not p2w becausae p2w means this..." and that when they throw that garbage to you then you will go like a tool and say "oh, yeah, ok, since it dosent meant that then everything its fine". seriously, dont underestimate us fanboys we can actually use our brains.	
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ok i understand this but....how is it a fair deal for someone to be able to pay to get there first......i don't know i just think this is a really bad way to do this there are plenty of other way to make money with a f2p title this just seems like a good way to push people out of ur game and i guess if there just in it for the quick money to get people in the game thats fine but i would gather they wont people in it for the long hall and i really do think when people start running in to this and they cant upgrade there gear with out paying something extra i think there gonna start turning from this game there is just to many option out there and i think that would be sad cause this is a good game its fun......and fyi this problem is gonna hit the f2p and p2p the same 
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It amazes me how many people in this thread who now think the game is P2W for providing the ability to accelerate progress with cash didn't feel that way at all when CREDD allowed players to do the exact same thing.
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Yes CREDD is the same BS p2w, you expend money real life money and then convert it to tons of money in game, i am really hoping you are not forced to be signature to make an arena team and that the 2000 cosmic reward neats you the arena team creation thing or i will just stop playing this game.
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....You are complaining that the game is taking too much time to get what you want...*flips table*
 
 
Your argument is countered by this bit on you tube.
 
"Why can't we get vast,open world entertainment for the low cost of...free?!"
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Actually CREDD is completely different as it's an internal game economy feature.  Players are purchasing an item to post on a board for other players to purchase.  It's also for the base sub, not to advance your progression.
 
This is very different from paying to significantly (by several weeks) speed up rune management and other core game features.  It's also an economy item that's outside of the game, as it's a transaction directly with Carbine and the game and not something that the internal player economy dictates depending on supply and demand.
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Love the people (fanboys) that in every game when something that is pay 2 win is discussed try to blur the meaning of p2w, like "oh no, p2w means this and not this" LOL, its like they have no brain at all and cant use logic BUT THATS NOT IT, they in fact know its p2w but they EXPECT that you are so DUMB that you will fall for the "its not p2w becausae p2w means this..." and that when they throw that garbage to you then you will go like a tool and say "oh, yeah, ok, since it dosent meant that then everything its fine". seriously, dont underestimate us fanboys we can actually use our brains.
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Yeah, don't let anyone kid you, CREDD *is* a form of Pay-To-Win.
 
By paying $20 real world cash, you exchange it for in-game gold. In-game gold CAN be used to buy in-game power.
 
It's semantics, but it's never fooled anyone with a lick of sense. Anytime you pay real world money for in-game money, it is a kind of P2W, like it or not.
 
Anyone who says differently isn't thinking it through - or they work for Carbine and are trying to fool you.	
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Don't really see how this is pay to win, most mmos when you acquire a new piece of gear takes a lot to buff it
 
Take wow for eg: you get a new weapon you had to gem it ,enchant it and reforge it (MoP)  at one point
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????? what........how does this topic about rune extraction rune cost have anything to do with Vast open world anything i think you took a leap here and forgot to tether ur self and you just kept on floating
 
 
O and i didn't look at the youtube link ( was scared to )
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It amazes me how many people in this thread who now think the game is P2W for providing the ability to accelerate progress with cash didn't feel that way at all when CREDD allowed players to do the exact same thing.
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Don't really see how this is pay to win, most mmos when you acquire a new piece of gear takes a lot to buff it
 
Take wow for eg: you get a new weapon you had to gem it ,enchant it and reforge it (MoP)  at one point	
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Yeah, don't let anyone kid you, CREDD *is* a form of Pay-To-Win.
 
By paying $20 real world cash, you exchange it for in-game gold. In-game gold CAN be used to buy in-game power.
 
It's semantics, but it's never fooled anyone with a lick of sense. Anytime you pay real world money for in-game money, it is a kind of P2W, like it or not.
 
Anyone who says differently isn't thinking it through - or they work for Carbine and are trying to fool you.
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Op points out that rune system is a gamble and takes too long to accomplish what you want, permission to say : DUH!!
 
The statement stands, you expect everything to be done at no damn drawback whatsoever.
 
And it's a secured you tube link, chill.
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By that you mean "when I start making too much sense?"  :lol:
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As far as the cosmic reward thing, just buy roughly $10-20 (if it's even that much) of stuff off of the shop once (key word here) and there's your points and the arena team creation.  It's literally one of the first things you get for the reward points, if memory serves.  Heck if you just play the game enough you will have enough currency to spend in the shop to not spend a dime to create your arena team.  As it is with all things it's a convience feature.
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um and still you lead with ( everything )......im just talking about one thing runes and the extraction of runes and there cost to do so...this is just one thing plz stop makeing it out like i have so many issue with whats going on in this game while there might be some this is the real big issue i have and ( Slyjeff ) has already pretty much settle this issue
 
 
 
and wasnt worried about the security of the link...just what might be on it 
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i hate it when you start being funny >.>
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Oh sure. Now tell me, did WoW have the option to pay real-world money for the ability to do all that?
 
Nope.
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because, people are never happy if ANYTHING takes time, they need everything NOW not later NOW. the same situation here "Runes cost too much i don't want to grind i want it cheap and NOW". (just game theory on the link).
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Actually they do its called the "Wow token" pretty much the child of Cred and Plex lol
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Love the people (fanboys) that in every game when something that is pay 2 win is discussed try to blur the meaning of p2w, like "oh no, p2w means this and not this" LOL, its like they have no brain at all and cant use logic BUT THATS NOT IT, they in fact know its p2w but they EXPECT that you are so DUMB that you will fall for the "its not p2w becausae p2w means this..." and that when they throw that garbage to you then you will go like a tool and say "oh, yeah, ok, since it dosent meant that then everything its fine". seriously, dont underestimate us fanboys we can actually use our brains.
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Well, WoW also had the BOE pet that you could buy off the store as well.
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Oh sure. Now tell me, did WoW have the option to pay real-world money for the ability to do all that?
 
Nope.
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You see, I never had a problem with any of this stuff, nor the CREDD type services because it never injected anything into the game itself that affected core game play.
 
CREDD, etc is essentially paying for someone else's sub.  They're just giving you in game currency for it, which happens a lot without this service anyway.  (Or at least I saw it quite a bit)
 
 
My definition of P2W has always been a smell test:
1)  Does it affect core performance in the game?
2)  Does it add direct currency that is in the game under natural play/grinding methods?
 
If the answer is yes to either of those I consider it P2W.  But that's me.
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Wow is pretty much the only subscription based game that has an in-game shop with ABSURD pricing that SOMEHOW *cupcake*ING WORKS....the player base is "amazing".
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OP's issue has already been resolved. If this thread is now about rune extraction with service tokens vs CREDD for gold, the difference for me is simple:
 
CREDD never made me feel like something I needed to buy in order to play the game. I pretty much ignored its existence. Rune extraction felt like something I would need to buy unless I put significant effort into avoiding it.
 
Again, I don't care about labels- I only care if I'm having fun. CREDD never impacted my fun factor. Rune extraction for service tokens did.	
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I suppose by your standards it affects the core performance by effectively slowing any player not willing to pay for service tokens....but where else can they even make a compromise? I mean like i pointed out rather angrily before, you can't make a free game and expect it to run on goodwill. Bills need to be payed, there has to be a compromise, the devs picked the compromise to be...well...crafting, it's going to take a long time, some games have end-game gear that takes 6 months to get, This is rather tame.
 
(Cheers on the Yahtzee profile btw -tips fedora-)
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Well, that's what pets, costumes, dyes, mounts, larger holo-wardrobes, housing decor space, housing items, bank space, AH limit increases, bag space increases, and signature services are for.
 
I personally think that Signature Service needs to be even more of an incentive beyond what it is now.
 
 
Just because you're a business and are looking to make money doesn't mean you can't provide value and be competitive.  Hell, remember the fit people threw about ATM fees a couple of years ago?  Kind of the same concept, yea they have a right to make money, they also have the right to have no customers and go out of business.  You have to find that sweet spot, and (again my opinion) W* isn't quite there.  It's close, but a bit more tweaking and it'll be awesome.
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Yeah, actually they do.  You can buy in-game gold now.
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Isn't the sweet spot here the Omnibits? You can get tokens with them.
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Isn't the sweet spot here the Omnibits? You can get tokens with them.
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But they are gated by a soft cap (and getting them after the cap is very, VERY slow- as in, I got one with several hours of play yesterday), meaning that rune extraction takes about four months of playing if you haven't properly planned ahead.
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Yes, if the rate is increased for Signature Service members and and allowance is given monthly.
 
The rate is too slow at this point and Ncoins are available for those as well.  It's a nasty grey area that doesn't pass the smell test.  Again, would be better, even acceptable, with several other conditions at play.
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I'm sorry but wasn't there a guy who linked to a thing that said they're changing it so you can extract runes with gold?
 
That line of discussion is incredibly pointless now.
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well the increased rate is there as an incentive for players to get a subscription, the thought here is : "Oh hey, i already pay 12 bucks a month,i don't want to pay more for that mount >:c, oooh my Omnibits stacked up".
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There is no increase of Omnibits rate with Signature status to my knowledge.
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i noticed them in the cosmic rewards section tbh.
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Getting signature status, usually by buying it, gives cosmic rewards, it rewards people for supporting the game. Hell, even redeeming CRED gives you 1000 points.
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Cosmic rewards != signature status.
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I'm pretty sure signature status nets you cosmic points on a monthly basis?
 
I think I got 2000 cosmic points when my sub got charged on October 4th.
 
Not directly related but...it's a side effect?
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Cosmic rewards != signature status.
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Like I said, I've been subbed since day 1 and don't have the omnibit faster rate. I think it's fair to say, then, that having a sub does not equal having that feature.
 
It's very possible for a sub not to have and for a non-sub to have it.
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Pay to win means the only way to get top gear (PvP or PvE) is to pay to obtain it. Or to otherwise pay to get a very unfair advantage. Paying to extract your runes is not really paying to win due to the fact that the set-up can be obtained without paying. (Even if one has to wait.) The fact that it can be done in-game just as easily as with real world currency means it is not pay-2-win.
 
In terms of rune extration, you are paying to save time. Not for an advantage that can only be obtained through real word currency.
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			Im just glad that my comment about p2w made all the fanboys nerd rage on me, keep it comming!	
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You and I have very different definitions of p2w obviously. P2W is anything that can give a large boost to a person that spends cash instead of in game currency in my book. Wildstar is floating very close to it imo. The service tokens provide a big advantage to those that buy them. I have bought them as well because if you plan to rune your gear for raiding and dont have 200plat you will need them. It's a forced purchase unless you want to take months to get up to date on runes
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OP has a point. While this isn't what we think of as traditional "pay to win" ... what it is, honestly, is near extortion of the player base.
 
This is almost the same issue as the dyes in the thread below.
 
By making the cost almost prohibitively high, Carbine is hoping that the desire to remain competitive is greater than your patience, and thus, you'll drop money on Service Tokens in order to bypass farming up the unreasonable amount of gold it requires.
 
Dyeing is the same way. By locking us out of our extensive dye collections at low levels, we have to wait until we've farmed up other dyes at 50, where the cost is disgustingly exorbitant. So again, go farm gold or pay cash. If we had our dyes at level 1, then we could make our costumes for CRAPLOADS less gold - but that would defeat the desire to not get raked over the coals just to change the color of our gear.
 
Yeah, the more I start paying attention to the details, the more I am not liking the direction this payment model is taking - especially as a long-time subscriber who doesn't appreciate having to foot the bill so the Freebots can play along without spending a dime.
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I actually don't want new gear drops now, because I don't want to have to buy service tokens to reroll the slots and then pay to pull runes out of my current gear.
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First of all, if you are raiding then having the in-game currency to fuss with runes is not going to be much of an issue in many cases. After the raid or during, it is unlikely to impact the success or failure of the raid.
 
Second, in past games not being able to immediately wear new gear because of lack of enchants/enhancements during a raid was never an issue. People who brought materials to enchant/enhance their equipment were never favored over people who did not. Skill was still valued and will continue to be valued more than someone's willingness to spend money to instantly move runes from equip a to equip b. Most guilds are also willing to help out with money to ensure the success of the raid.
 
Third, as for being a quick cash grab? People are lazy. Lazy equates to money. Cosmetics and fluff do not sell as well as we might hope and there is not much else for them to 'sell' without going full blown play-to-win or typical pay-to-access-70%-of-the-game systems.
 
I cannot honestly see this having a real impact on end-game. Guilds are not going to start kicking people from raids for their refusal (or inability) to pay to instantly extract runes on new upgrades. (This excludes guilds who will do anything to be at the top of that list and full of world firsts.)
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			I think the point is wildstar is changing it for the better, lets be patient they obviously do listen.	
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Yes they do listen. But we cant afford being patient. We have to constantly throw suggestion on them because as long as we are "patient" it does not give them signal that we are "patient" it does give them signal that "we are ok with things as they are" aka "we will buy that CUPCAKE not kicking back".
 
Dont be fooled, carbine team may be nice, may be listening to players but they are still a money making company and sadly wont do anything unnecesary to lower any prices.
 
In the end, after all the "balance" changes will be applied there will be two factors left:
 
Is 20% increase gold still good enough to maintain subscription or is it better to dump it (aka carbine loosing cash per month) and stuff it into cash shop (if the person is even willing to do that)
 
If freebots are uncomfortable with prices etc. it is allright (sorry freebots) but right now even majority of subscribers are unhappy and that should never occur.	
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