Report 1423

Report #1423
Skillset: Skill: Unleash
 Org: Hartstone Status: Approved Jun 2016
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1.
Problem: Staff unleash abilities (Fury, Pollute, etc.) provide melders with the
ability to deal large, variable chunks of damage to entire enemy groups from an
arbitrary distance up to the entire possible length of a demesne, 30 rooms.
While in practice, no one melds or plays to that extreme, the mechanic still
allows a melder to very safely avoid reprisals but still output huge damage from
several rooms away. Further, the large base damage means that buffs have an
undue effect on this damage, swinging it from amounts that are quickly cured off
and ignored to immediatly killing groups of people with some support. Likewise,
differing levels of average resistance makes the different damage types and
spreads of the various unleash skills more significant than usual.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: For each room away from a victim the caster is, their
 unleash's damage does progressivly less damage.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Change based damage across the 6 unleashes to
 comparable values. See comments for suggested numbers
 and rationale.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Introduce a large unblockable typing portion to each
 unleash. Adjust the damage formulas to keep average
 damage comprable to current values. This will help
 normalize unleash damage by reducing the effect of
 buffs and resistances on the damage.
Player Comments:
---[Enyalida on 5/27 @ 23:24 writes]:
Suggested numbers right now are as follows: Make all unleashes deal 50%
unblockable damage (Sol.#3). Make Fury (which will then be 50% cutting, 50%
unblockable) deal 8% additional damage (50% of the average 'regular' armor,
robes + shield or plate). Unleashes that deal smaller percentages of physical
damage should receive proportionally lower damage boosts to normalize damage to
account for standard armor.
---[Xenthos on 6/15 @ 22:55 writes]:
Solution 3 is terrible unless you are also reducing the overall damage done by
these-- it's not "normalizing" the damage, it's "increasing" it for everyone who
is not at 0 all resists (which is nobody, since all have access to Kirigami at
the very least). I don't particularly mind if the damage is reduced the further
away from the caster you go, but I'm not sure how important it is. I don't
really see it as being problematic right now (it's not like Fury doesn't do a
hefty chunk of damage, after all).
---[Enyalida on 6/15 @ 22:59 writes]:
Yes, that is intended. I haven't been able to go to testing to nail down what
that value would be though. It will certainly be easier to figure out for coders
who can directly look at the damage formulas, but I'll give it a stab. I'll
update the solutionss to make that more clear.
---[Cyndarin on 6/16 @ 00:34 writes]:
I guess I don't understand this report. At the meta you won't die to any
meldbomb that is 10 rooms away, and the meld tic won't be hitting so it seems to
be redundantly discouraging mages from being far away. That being said, I'm
still pondering on it and not absolutely opposed to it. Solution 2 is just a
druid buff without any discussion regarding the context of druid v mage and why
the bombs (among other things) should or should not be identical or directly
comparable. 3 just seems like a work around to partially remove it from the
damage typing/buff system.
---[Wobou on 6/16 @ 01:11 writes]:
I'm not sure how I feel about the additional damage to make up for cutting being
blocked by armor. Does fury currently cause bleeding?
---[Lerad on 6/17 @ 01:43 writes]:
The solutions do not resolve the problem statement. The large damage of the
unleashes compared to safety a melder can use unleashes from is
disproportionate, and therefore the problem.
---[Lerad on 6/17 @ 01:50 writes]:
The solution is therefore not to 'normalize' the damage or buff it. It is to
either nerf the safety which melders can do unleashes, or the damage itself.
Solution 1 is the closest to actually addressing the problem, but I argue that
it doesn't do enough (which is why I said no solutions address the problem)
because the problem statement clearly states that such distances are not used
much in practical combat. If the result is effectively the status quo when the
skill is most practically used, then there is no point to the solution. I will
post some alternate suggestions later today, when I'm at a proper computer.
---[Selna on 6/17 @ 10:10 writes]:
Support in solution 1. I fully agree with Lerad's assessment of the skill.
---[Enyalida on 6/17 @ 12:30 writes]:
The solutions DO nerf the safety - The risk factor that comes in is the mana
vulnerability, but it's trivially easy for the melder to cast this skill from
sufficiently far away that it's not reasonable for anyone to get to them and
capitalize on that vulnerability. Distance is the issue, and harsh enough
scaling can push a melder to be within a 2 room radius, which is dramatically
more fesiable to chase down than the current status quo. The other two solutions
DO nerf the damage of unleashes that are problematic, from folks like Avurekhos
or Cyndarin who have their damage output maximized. Both aspects of the issue
are tackled, the risk floor is brought up and the damage ceiling is lowered.
---[Shedrin on 6/17 @ 22:45 writes]:
I do consider Unleash in its current state to be a problem. Personally I take
80% or more from an optimized mage/druid unleash, not including the potential
for 10% from a meld hit, and whatever other damage the mage, druid or allies
throws out as it connects, and this is to all enemies. I think there's three
broad ways to limit this. Reducing the range of Unleash and introducing more
generally available counterplay options, adding more prep to Unleash, or
reducing the damage of Unleash. Some brainstorming: - Make Unleash apply only to
the room of the Melder, and dissipate if the Melder is not within the room at 5s
before hit, and when it hits. - Reduce the damage of Unleash by 35%. This would
take an Unleash dealing 80% of max health to 52%, or an Unleash dealing 100% of
health to 65%, much more manageable and requiring more tactics to get kills. -
Require the mage/druid to 'charge' a room several times before an Unleash
affects the room or reduce the damage, and increase it to where it is now if the
room is charged. Make a charged room able to be reduced in charge level with
scroll of disruption or Kether or something in Environment.
---[Shedrin on 6/17 @ 22:49 writes]:
I'm ok with adjusting Fury to be equivalent to mage Unleashes. Also, the mana
kill vulnerability is not always an option for countering Unleash, due to
potentially limited access of mana kills (along with the previously mentioned
range issue). However, I do want to add that when report 1329 is completed, this
may alleviate some of the issue.
---[Cyndarin on 6/17 @ 23:58 writes]:
I'm okay with reworking or nerfing unleash but 50% of max health for 10 power
and full mana is not worth using, If it uses 100% mana and forces you to never
use it when a mana killer is present then it becomes so niche it's not worth
being a trans skill. The meldbombs are useful because they clear out lazy or
casual PKers who don't min/max and bursting down a single target with some
coordination. Everyone else survives comfortably because they are not the
target. I, personally, would rather rework each meld bomb to be something class
specific (like burns, or mana damage, bleeding, etc). This report needs more
time to be fleshed out more. I'll support solution 1 for now but that's it.
---[Cyndarin on 6/18 @ 00:00 writes]:
That was in response to a couple of Shedrin's suggestions. I also hate the
"charged" idea that will just create mini meld wars inside of existing meld
wars.
---[Cyndarin on 6/18 @ 00:06 writes]:
What about removing the full mana usage and each staff adds a temporary demesne
effect that follows the caster. Still 10 power. Everyone can get a damage tic +
some demesne specific effect. Burns, bleeding, etc etc.
---[Cyndarin on 6/18 @ 00:09 writes]:
Ultimately I know that reducing damage to no longer actually damage burst people
quickly result in it falling into disuse. 50% damage hoping to kill 1 person
just isn't good enough for 10 power and full mana. You could keep it as is and
make it LoS only and only usable on a single target. Would eliminate the group
bomb aspect.
---[Shedrin on 6/18 @ 16:16 writes]:
I think 50%+ of damage to all enemies is still quite valuable, though removing
the full mana drain would be ok there. I do like the idea of making each unleash
meld-specific as @Cyndarin said above, if good ideas for each guild can be
thought up.
---[Cyndarin on 6/19 @ 04:36 writes]:
Well 50% sucks and I'd never use it. The value of meldbombs isn't in the damage
it does to all enemies, it's in the ability to kill the zerglings (or low might,
low resistance players) which can tip the scales in a fight. 50% damage does
actually threaten anyone but the primary target, especially if it uses full
reserves, has a 12 second delay, and can't be repeated. You're literally only
going to (possibly) kill 1 target with it. If you remove the ability to kill the
casual PKers, meldbombs lose an enormous value. Which is fine, I'm okay with
that. But I just want to be clear that the replacement of a trans skill should
still have value, like class specifics bombs. Just nerfing damage means mages
get the shaft.
---[Cyndarin on 6/19 @ 04:41 writes]:
For comparison, Researchers have excellent roomwide damage but one attack or
even two is not threatening. It's the repeated spammable damage that makes it
threatening. One big burst only works if that big burst actually kills. If it
doesn't, it needs to be spammable like balestone. the reality is there is no in
between in value, and that is because health damage has 3 cures and is by far
the most easily recoverable "kill strategy," in the game. 50% damage to a group
means nothing if the entire group has recoverd by the time you kill the primary
target, which is easily accomplished in 10 seconds.
---[Enyalida on 6/20 @ 20:24 writes]:
All mages have a roomwide damage attack and potential allies with even stronger
(ranged) damage bombs from chems that are doubly enhanced by coordinating with a
meld-holding mage. 'Lazy or casual PKers' might stop using these abilities, but
there certainly would still be (less one-button oriented) options for clearing
out lower tier combatants en masse using burst meld damage.
---[Shedrin on 6/21 @ 21:27 writes]:
I don't think Unleash should be an instakill, even on weaklings. If it's going
to be that level, then it should require more prep. Either in something the Mage
does personally like how Meteor requires spheres, or in synchronising with your
allies.
---[Cyndarin on 6/22 @ 01:14 writes]:
I don't agree with catering to casuals in the meta, but if we do go that
direction for meldbombs, I'm fine with thay specific change. However, if you are
removing the reason to use meldbombs, in that it clears out the casuals, then
there needs to be an equivalent reduction in cost and accessibility.That was my
point. 50% health for 10 power and full mana after a 12 second delay is not
going to cut it.
---[Synkarin on 6/22 @ 12:56 writes]:
You can't balance around casual PKer's. You need to balance around the top tier.
This includes damage from unleash. By balancing around the casual PKer, top tier
people become a whole lot stronger. I personally don't understand the complaints
about unleash. You have several options during a group fight to prevent it. The
only solution I can really get behind is Solution 1. I'd even go so far as to
bring it into line with meld effets and say it's only effective where meld
effects hit. The options available to counter it (lusting, breaking the meld,
leaving the meld) are all sufficient to deal with unleash. I don't believe
making changes based on limited situations like you don't have a melder to break
either. That said, I'm not opposed to changing it per Celina's suggestions
either.
---[Synkarin on 6/22 @ 12:59 writes]:
Oh, with regards to Fury vs Mage bombs - I think the better solution is to bring
armor into the bodyscan fold rather than a straight physical damage reduction. I
don't support raising Fury damage just to be equal because they have worse
typing.
---[Dylara on 6/23 @ 15:17 writes]:
Prefer Suggestion 1 or Celina's suggestion. They typically don't kill me unless
I've been hit a couple times with damage anyways but I do agree that it is
useful for clearing out some of the smaller targets. If we do the distance
diminishing returns thing it would make it so the Druid/Mage can't hide out on a
far part of a demesne and forces them to be somewhat closer, raising the risk,
raising the potential is my take from it.
---[Shedrin on 6/24 @ 03:36 writes]:
I think that implications that my comments are balancing around casual PKers is
a misinterpretation. Further, I certainly did use Unleash at the 50%-60% level
of damage when I was a Mage with barely any artifacts and worse damage typing.
On it's own it wouldn't kill, of course, but it is useful in a large group when
coordinating with allies and synchronising with other personal aoe options
(phantomsphere detonate, boulderblast equivalents, etc.) Perhaps it would help
if people could post what specific amounts of damage they are taking from
optimized Unleashes, as from my perspective, taking 90% from an Unleash + meld
is certainly approaching group instakill territory (add a boulderblast or
equivalent) on a non-casual PK level.
---[Falmiis on 6/28 @ 23:40 writes]:
As it is, I think all of the meld bombs are too strong. The limitations and
drawbacks really aren't enough and in many situations there isn't really a
realistic counter to it other than to leave the meld (and in some cases even
this isn't really feasible). I don't agree that just because a melder has a lot
of artifacts and maxed out buffs that they should be able to effectively one-
shot people who haven't also invested so much without even having to be in the
same room, all at the same time. The fact that there are so many potential
solutions that people have brought up shows that this skill is currently over
the top. Any nerf, whether it is a nerf to the damage, making it proximity
limited (if not room limited), making it a channeled ability etc, would be
welcome imo.
---[Falmiis on 6/28 @ 23:48 writes]:
On the problem of armour, I never bought the idea that druid unleashes are meant
to be weaker because their melds are stronger overall. The problem is that
whether a skillset has physical damage is usually determined by the theme
rather than any concerns about balance. There is also the fact that not everyone
has the same armour. The Rune of Absorption is also able to block physical
damage of any kind. All of this introduces a lot of variables that all
contribute fairly significantly. I think it makes more sense to just have these
things apply to denizen physical damage and leave them out of pvp damage
calculations. Scale down the base damage of skills that currently do physical
damage as needed (i.e. warriors and monks) and leave the damage the same for
skills that are otherwise on par (e.g. Aquachem bombs which have partial
physical damage when none of the other chems do).