Look for the Light (HBO's Podcast)/Transcript

The following is the full transcript of "Look for the Light", the ninth and final episode of HBO's The Last of Us Podcast.
== Transcript ==
[Audio from TV show:] Marlene: No matter how hard you try, no matter how many people you kill, she's gonna grow up, Joel. And then you'll die, or she'll leave. Then what? How long till she's torn apart by Infected or murdered by raiders? Because she lives in a broken world that you could have saved.
Joel: Maybe. But it isn't for you to decide.
Marlene: Or you. So what would she decide, huh? 'Cause I think she'd want to do what's right. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: Welcome back, everybody, to HBO's The Last of Us Podcast. I am your host, Troy Baker, and I'm joined not only this week by the showrunners, Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, but by one of the most cherished people in my life.
Ashley: Oh my goodness, that's so nice. 
Troy: The inimitable Ashley Johnson, who played Ellie in the game and in this episode plays the character Anna, Ellie's mom. 
Ashley: Hey! 
Neil: Whoo! Whoop-whoop! Whoo! 
Ashley: Hello. 
Troy: And it's that character, Anna, that I want to talk about just off the very beginning, as the top of our episode. And I want to kind of go around the room and get everybody's perspective on it, starting off with you, Neil. Where did Anna come from? 
Neil: "Where did Anna come from?" It was definitely while working on the first game. You're trying to define more of the world than what you're actually going to experience. So, for Ellie, it was a lot about kind of going backwards and defining her history, including some other stuff that we've never seen before of, like, what are some of the people she's been attached to? But even like, okay, where does it all begin? So much of the story is about parents and children. Who are Ellie's parents? And it was kind of interesting to figure out who her mom was, and what did she go through, and what did she leave Ellie. So, in the game, she's defined by a note that she's left her and a switchblade that she passes down to her. And then once we finished production on the game, there was an opportunity to do an animated short with a studio that was interested in working with us. So I had written a short story about Ellie's mom and the day she gave birth to Ellie. And then things fell through, and that story had to get shelved. I actually wanted-- I loved that story so much, I wanted to shoot it as, like, a live-action short. And we had talked about that. 
Ashley: Oh, that's right! 
Neil: Like at Comic Con one day, we were, like, kinda talking about it, and then everybody got busy. And that fell through again. And then when we were working on The Last of Us II and I started working with Craig, he asked me all these questions about the world. "What are some stories we haven't told?" But then I told him, like, "Oh, here's this short story about Ellie's mom and how she gave birth, and she got bitten right before she gave birth and had to cut the umbilical cord. And she wasn't sure if she had passed on this infection or not." And I'll pass it on to Craig, and he can tell his side of the story. 
Craig: And I said, "Holy fuck! We're doing that." There are times when you think, "Ooh, that could be good," or, "Hmm, if we could find a place for it." And that was one of those circumstances where I just said, "No, no, no, we're fucking doing it." Because my connection to Ellie, as a character, goes back to 2013. So, I've been, you know, in love with this kid for ten years by then, or whatever it was-- eight years. And now we're making this new version of this kid, and this bit of backstory was so gorgeous to me and so upsetting. But it also explains something important because I always wanted to know, "What was this, just some weird, random genetic thing? Like, why is she immune?" Well, here's an answer, and what I loved so much about it was that the answer was soaking in sadness. And there was such an opportunity to see a mother give birth. I mean, I've had two kids, and each time, when the child emerges, there's this just release of emotion. Like there's not anything that you even feel happening. Like, you know, when you feel like you're about to cry, it's like there are signs and it's coming? Baby comes out, no lead-up, just nothing, tears, boom. 
Ashley: Mm-hmm. 
Craig: Just instant. Yeah, like instant. So, that kind of moment of pure joy followed by this terrible acknowledgement that you will have maybe two or three hours or a day, and that's it. And you are not gonna be able to do your job as a parent. And the whole theme here of Joel failing to keep his daughter alive, and Joel struggling to keep Ellie alive, and here's the first person in Ellie's life, her mother, who's failing to protect her kid or keep her kid alive because if someone doesn't show up, they're not gonna make it. All of that just made it essential. And then the very next thing we said was, "We gotta get Ashley." 'Cause who else in the world could possibly be Ellie's mother? 
Troy: For you, Ashley, having such a deep connection to this story and to Ellie, walk us through what it's like for you to get that news and say, "Here's an opportunity." 
Ashley: Oh, man. Oh no, I'm gonna instantly get emotional. I remember when Neil texted me and... I just instantly burst into tears-- into tears 'cause I was like, "Wait, are you serious? No way." Because, like, when they adapt a video game into a film or TV, generally the voice actors don't-- it doesn't go past that. But I think I got so emotional about it because it's-- There's so many levels to-- Oh, goddamn it.
Craig: Here come the tissues. 
Ashley: It's starting. I can feel my voice shaking! 
Neil: Let me help. I'll buy you some time. 
Ashley: Please talk, so don't look at me and talk. 
Neil: I'll give you a short reprieve.
Craig: I'm gonna stare at you while you talk. 
Neil: I think, for my interpretation, why this means so much to you, and why it means so much to me for you to be a part of this, is 'cause Ellie is you in so many ways. Like, we wrote that game kind of live, organically. Like, we had some ideas of where the story was going, but then you were cast, and you helped shape that character significantly. One of the first scenes we shot is the truck ambush. 
Ashley: Oh yeah. 
Neil: And in the game, like, you get pulled out of the truck, and you're kind of wrestling with this guy until Joel comes and saves you. And you pulled me aside when we were working on that scene, and you're like, "I feel like I would fight back more. And I'd be more active here." And that was the first, like, moment where the character started shifting towards becoming much more capable and I think interesting because of that. And that was just like one of many changes over the years that we have talked about and you contributed. And we talked about this in the previous episode, like, Ellie's love of space is you. Like, that wouldn't be there if it weren't for you. And, again, this comes over and over again. There's so many things in Part II as well that were, like, shaped by you. So...
Craig: Let me see if we can keep you crying. So, and I've talked about this a lot with both of you guys, but I want to say it on the show because it means a lot to me. Troy is a master of a thousand voices. 
Ashley: Yes.
Craig: Troy's voice has been in my head across I don't know how many games. But the thing about Troy is, when you meet him, he doesn't necessarily sound like any of those people. 
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Craig: Whereas you sound exactly like Ellie. And it is so rattling and gorgeous. It's hard to explain, but you and Ellie are so intertwined. I see you and Ellie have this overlap that is astonishing, and it's so exciting to me as a fan. Like I know people listening to you right now are like, "Holy shit, these three dipshits are sitting in a room with Ellie," you know? Because you-- I don't know, it's just-- that's why... To bring it back to this opening and why I'm so proud of it, and why I think it works so well, and it makes me cry every time I see it, is because you can feel like a handoff. You can feel this beautiful connection from Ellie's mother to Ellie. There is Ellie-ness traveling through you. It's why-- One of my favorite little moments. I mean, we had these two babies that were fraternal twins. One was a girl, and one was a boy. And-- 
Ashley: And the girl--
Craig: The girl was a better actor than-- 
Ashley: She was a better actor--
Craig: One day, the boy will listen to this and be very bitter. 
Ashley: Yeah.
Craig: She was better. 
Ashley: "I had my chance!" 
Craig: She was better. Also, she was ultimately cheaper for us because if we had to use the boy in certain scenes, we were gonna have to, like, digitally paint out his, you know, his situation. So it was much easier with the girl. But-- So, she's got this little baby there, and the baby's screaming, and Anna, played by Ashley-- 
Ashley: That's me.
Craig: ...which, theoretically, is also played by Ellie in its own weird way, is saying, "Yeah, you tell 'em. You fuckin' tell 'em, Ellie." Like, Ashley Johnson is essentially saying, "I know you, little kid. You're like me. I like how angry you are. This is Ellie." 
Ashley: "Go get 'em." 
Craig: And, yeah, "Go get 'em. Go fucking get 'em." And I don't believe we wrote, "Oh, you're so tough," right? That was just you having a natural, maternal response. And, "Oh, you're so tough," was maybe my favorite line, which you just said. Because I love anything where Ellie's genetic creator is acknowledging that there's something tough there. Even if she's giving her some shit about it 'cause she's not that tough yet, she will be. 
Neil: Ten out of ten times I watch that and I cry as well. 
Troy: Ashley, for over a decade now, you've lived with this character. You've... imbued a part of yourself into her. And you've watched how it's not only been interpreted and put into a game, but now in a completely different medium by a completely different actor. What does seeing Bella as Ellie mean to you? 
Ashley: Ooh... It's interesting being sort of attached and a part of a character for so long, and the lines get blurred. And... when it was talked about that this was gonna be turned into a movie or a show, and there has been sort of different versions of it, and... You know, not that we have any say, necessarily, in who was cast in it, but something didn't ever feel right until Bella. Like... There is something so similar that the both of us have. And, instantly, when I met Bella, there was this feeling of wanting to protect them. And also... The first time I met Bella, I was a little taken aback because it felt like I was meeting the real Ellie, like the character coming out of the game. 
Troy: I know exactly what you mean. 
Ashley: Obviously, we played these parts, but-- It's a strange thing, but-- I mean-- There's a little bit of it where it's like Bella kind of feels like my kid. And we have very similar mannerisms, and she gets it. And I was so blown away by her performance. And there was the scene where, when Tess gets bitten, and Tess asks Ellie, "Are you okay?" And in my head, I was like, "Man, I would have shit my pants." 
Ashley: And then, literally, like five seconds later, Ellie says it. 
Craig: Yeah. 
Ashley: And I was like, "Oh my God!" Yeah, there's-- there's-- there's a kinship that we have. And I want Bella to also have ownership of the character too. And... I see it. And just who Bella is as a person is Ellie. And it's so perfect and so wonderful. And even in the-- with the plane.
Craig: Yeah. 
Ashley: Where the moment of, "Well, dude, you got to fly."
Craig: "Got to go up in the sky." 
Ashley: "You got to go up in the sky." Each of the moments that have been written in the show and that Bella and Pedro have been able to perform are just expansions on the story. And there's a through line with Pedro's performance and with Bella's performance, but it's also their own.
Craig: And what, I guess, it's important for people to understand is, you played Ellie. And then I watched you, and Neil was there from the beginning making this thing. And we absorb your Ellie. That Ellie is in our brains and in our hearts when we start to write Ellie for television, but also cast Ellie. This is not coincidental. And so it was, therefore, also so obvious that we should then make you her mother because there is a genetic continuity. 
Ashley: There-- Yeah.
Craig: She is your daughter. She's your daughter by performance. She's your "performance kid." And so we picked her because we felt like she fit into this thing that we understood that you're so much a part of. So it makes total sense. And saying, "Oh, I wanna make space for her," that's a very "Ellie" thing. It's just El-- You guys are Ellie. You're both Ellie. 
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah! 
Neil: But I'll add... Often people ask, like, "Oh, are you nervous about what the fans are gonna think?" And all that. And then I'm like-- I-- I mean it when I said, "I've learned to turn that part of my brain off," which is, like, I have no expectations one way or the other what the fans-- The fans are going to have their reaction, and that'll be that. It's important for me that we make something that we're proud of. But I have been very nervous about how Naughty Dog would feel about it because these are people that have followed me, or whatever, and have dedicated years of their lives... 
Ashley: Have also been on this journey... 
Neil: ...to bringing this story to life. 
Ashley: ...creating these characters. Yeah. 
Neil: And in my mind, I've always included you and Troy in that statement, but I think it has to be more explicit than that because I would have been crushed if Troy didn't like Pedro, or his performance, specifically. And same thing with you, Ashley. If you didn't like Bella, I would be devastated because you helped bring Joel and Ellie to life. If I didn't work with you, I don't think we would have been as successful. I don't think that the magic would have been there. But also, they'd be vastly different characters and be written very differently. So it's like you're- the DNA of Joel and Ellie is very much continuing in this other dimension of this version of the story.
Craig: The other dimension. 
Troy: I want to kind of focus on this-- this opening scene for a little bit. And Craig, for you, clearly, everyone's excited to tell this story. How do you fight the temptation to put that at the very end? Why not put it on episode two? We get background of Joel. Why not get background of Ellie earlier? Why stave that off to the very last episode?
Craig: Hurts more. It hurts more. 
Neil: It was never, like, in question. 
Craig: No. 
Neil: Remember, we said, “Cold open...”
Craig: Has to be.
Craig: Has to be that. Always from the start. Because we need time to meet Ellie ourselves, and we identify with Joel from the start. Joel is clearly the-- He feels like the main character, the protagonist. We see him prior to all this with his own daughter. And then there's this kid. He has to take her somewhere. We are discovering her through him. And it was important, I think, to not short-circuit that by showing us stuff about her that he didn't know and to give her unnecessary context. It's better to watch her becoming who she is with him and let that relationship be its own thing. And then, when nobody is expecting it, to throw this heavy right hook. It does two things. First, it contextualizes Ellie in a moment where we are the most concerned about her because when we came off of the episode prior, she had just killed a man in the most brutal way and had clearly been traumatized by her experience with him. And the other thing it does is it connects her birth to the choice that Joel has to make at the end of this episode. Marlene is there. So, we now understand, "Okay, all the way back in episode one, Marlene said, 'I put you there, Ellie.' 'What, are you my mom or something?'" It was a joke then, but here we kind of answer the question of who the mom is. And in a way, Marlene was her mom because from basically two hours after she's born, Marlene becomes the woman who looks after her. And it also cuts to the nature of her immunity. So, when we get to the end and there's Marlene saying, "I was there when she was born." And Marlene leaves out this fact, "And I was the one who killed your mother." It all makes sense here at the end. It could not have been done anywhere else. 
Neil: Yeah, thematically as well. Again, the Marlene thing is it speaks to the different philosophies that Marlene has versus Joel, which is they both kind of have accepted this kid, and they'll do anything they need to protect them. But for Marlene, like, her love is much more outward and broad for all of humanity, that she's willing to sacrifice her own morality and what she believes is right, which is saving this kid in order to save other people. Where Joel is the exact opposite of that.
Craig: The last episode is so much about, "What will Joel be as a father?" So, we have this maternal act of creation and this maternal nurturing, but also a maternal appreciation for toughness. You know? "And you fuckin' tell 'em, Ellie." And you're gone. And instead there's this guy. And now it's his job. And what will he do? We know what you did to keep her safe. What will he do? And that's why that had to be there. And I think that opening sets the stage for everything that happens in this episode. 
Neil: And there's one more thing, which is why this was important for it to be here at the end, which is over the course of the season, Ellie loses much of her innocence.
Craig: Yes. 
Neil: And here we see her at her most innocent, a baby.
Craig: And yet, even as a baby, born in violence. 
Neil: Yeah. How much were you thinking about Ellie that you know when you're making the scene? Or do you just, like, bury all that, like, "No, no."? 
Ashley: I mean, I did have... Like, I wrote out the note from the game, and I had that in my pocket, and then the switchblade. And I already have the story in my head. I've lived it. So, I think that history is already there. And also, the stuntwoman, Kelsey Andries, who plays the Infected in the scene...
Craig: Boy, did she do a good job. 
Ashley: ...blew my fucking mind! Like, I... I feel like, for me, something that's really hard to act and feel is fear because it's not something... I'm not in that situation enough to know what that feels like, to be like, "Oh my God! I could die at any second." And... Kelsey just was unbelievable. Like, her body work. That stuff is so hard to do and was such an unbelievable scene partner. Like, I had a baby-- babies that were amazing actors and the most incredible stunt woman I think I've ever worked with. And we fought each other. I had a lot of bruises. 
Craig: (CHUCKLES) Yes. 
Ashley: She had a black eye.
Craig: She had a black eye? 
Ashley: She did.
Craig: The stunt people on the show don't get enough credit for what they do. It's... The way they would throw their bodies around, it's astonishing. 
Troy: Anna kills the Clicker by stabbing it in the brain with her switchblade, Ellie is born, and then Marlene arrives.
[Audio from TV show:] Anna: Find someone to bring her up and make sure that she's safe.
Marlene: I can't do that. 
Anna: And I want you to give her this. (BABY BABBLING) 
Anna: Her name is Ellie.
Marlene: I can't. 
Anna: How long have we known each other? [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: There's a line that Anna says when she looks at Marlene and says, "Find someone to bring her up and make sure that she's safe."
Craig: Yeah. 
Troy: She doesn't implore, or employ even, Marlene to do this. She says, "Find someone." Do you think that Anna trusted Marlene? Or do you think that she knew that Marlene would be good to find someone? Why didn't she just ask Marlene to be the one? 
Ashley: Oh man, I feel like there's a lot to that. I feel like a lot of it is like, "I know this is such a shitty situation, and I don't want to just throw this on you right now. So I'm gonna give you an 'out' by not fully putting the responsibility on you of just like, 'Well, find... find someone.' If it is gonna be you, awesome. But, like, I know that I'm putting you in the worst position right now, and-- I don't know. I don't know what to do in this moment right now 'cause I'm gonna-- I'm gone in 20 minutes, so figure it out." But also, Marlene, to me... kind of doesn't fully have the maternal thing. And I think there's also that element, too, of like, she's the leader of the Fireflies. She's-- 
Craig: I think that's it. 
Ashley: You know, it's like, "I don't know if you're the person for this job either." Like, there's so much to that line-- 
Neil: "But you're my friend, and you'll figure this out."
Craig: "You'll figure it out." 
Ashley: Yes! "You'll figure it out."
Craig: "I'm not saying that you, in your job, trying to liberate the world, are going to have either the time, nor inclination, nor ability to raise this kid." 
Ashley: Yeah. 
Craig: "So find someone." 
Ashley: Yeah. Like, "I know I'm putting you in a fucked position right now, but, like, I love you. You love me. We're friends. Like, I know you're gonna figure it out."
Craig: I think Ashley's exactly right. You're in a moment where you are asking the biggest thing ever, and you have no time for bargaining. You just have to go straight to, "Here's my basic minimum. Anything beyond that is great. But my basic minimum is, find someone in the world to protect and raise this kid." And even if you don't think Marlene is the one who's gonna be able to do that, the one thing I think that Anna knows is that Marlene will not pick somebody bad. And in fact, Marlene was brilliant. Marlene didn't pick a person to raise Ellie. She picked FEDRA. 
Neil: Her enemies. 
Craig: Her enemies. And it's exactly what she says to Ellie in episode one, "I knew that's where you would be safest." 
Ashley: And I feel like where she didn't have to get close to her, in a way.
Craig: Well, and that's the other thing. She wasn't gonna be checking in on her every day. She wasn't gonna be crazy Aunt Marlene, "Just checking in on her." Quite the opposite. Because the closer you get to Marlene, the more likely it is that you're gonna be hurt because Marlene is a criminal in this new world. She's an outlaw. 
Neil: We know that she was watching her from afar. Always, like, making sure she's safe and okay, which again, serendipity, is like when the whole thing goes down with Riley, Marlene happens to be there and protect Ellie. Where like any other Firefly would have shot her since she was bitten.
Craig: "I am the one that told them not to shoot you." 
Neil: I'm curious what it was like for you because it was over ten years ago where you shot scenes with Merle Dandridge as Marlene and now you got to have a reunion with her. 
Ashley: I think the absolute world of her, and... it was really cool. I mean, I don't know how to describe this feeling of shooting something that... It's so strange to be a part of something for so long and then playing different parts in the same world. She's amazing. 
Neil: One other thing I think is worth pointing out here, which is why, again, this needed to be in this episode. If you look at this opening and what Anna does to protect Ellie, and you look at the ending of what Joel does to protect Ellie, the common thread is they both lie. 
Craig: Yes. 
Neil: Uh, Anna says, "I cut it."
Craig: Yeah. "I cut the cord before I was bitten. Before." And she says "before" twice because it's very clear that Marlene's like, "I don't buy that." 
Craig: And she just is like-- I think even when Anna says "before" the second time, I think she's almost saying, "Don't fucking question my lie now. Just go with it." 
Ashley: Yeah, "Just go with it. I'm gonna be--"
Craig: "Just go with this lie." 
Neil: And the connection there is, like, both Marlene and Ellie at the end--
Craig: And are going with the lie. 
Neil: Going with the lie-
Craig: Go with a lie. "I'm going to choose to believe your obvious bullshit because it's the right thing to do in this moment. Or because the alternative is unthinkable." And that's a great point that Neil's making. Like, the parallels here are extreme. And let's say that the natural course of action takes place and little baby Ellie is infected because you were infected, and she was connected to you by blood. Well, in a couple of hours, infant Ellie is gonna start twitching and, you know-- and then freaking out, and they're going to have to kill a baby. That baby could theoretically pose damage. What if that baby bites Marlene? You don't know and you don't care. That's the thing. Like, you say to Marlene, "How long have we known each other?" "All our lives." "So you'd do this for me?" Meaning, like, we are best friends. 
Neil: You owe me. 
Craig: And you're still putting her in danger because your baby matters more than her. And that is the theme that we will keep rolling around with the whole season. 
Neil: But especially this episode.
Craig: But especially this episode. 
Troy: So, let's move on from the cold open with Anna, baby Ellie, and Marlene. Now we're back with Joel and a 14-year-old Ellie who is emotionally shut down in a way that we haven't seen before. 
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: Ellie? Did you hear me?
Ellie: No. What? 
Joel: I found this in there. Beefaroni, Chef Boyardee. 
Ellie: Oh, cool. [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: After we leave Anna and we jump to the future, Ellie is distant, and she is clearly feeling the effects of the traumatic events that happened a month earlier. So, the winter has ended, it's spring, but she is clearly experiencing some sort of post-traumatic stress. And she's shut off and cold. Not because she's angry at Joel. She's just-- She's wounded, and she doesn't quite know how to process it. And Joel's trying to get through, which is a kind of heartbreaking reversal of the way it used to be. You know, in the beginning, when we see Joel and Ellie having their first conversations walking down the road in episode three, she's a chatterbox, and he doesn't want to talk. And now he's a chatterbox, and she doesn't want to talk until we have this giraffe moment. 
[Audio from TV show:] (GIRAFFE MUNCHING) (ELLIE GIGGLES) 
Ellie: So fucking cool. Oh, where's she going? Come on, come on, come on, come on! [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: That moment was entirely a cut scene. There wasn't really anything playable in the giraffe moment in the game. It was a cut scene that you watched as television. And I didn't see a reason to not repeat it perfectly because I thought it was perfect. And if I don't need to do any of the adaptation tricks and magic and whatever things we do to get it from this medium to this medium, why would I? The giraffe scene, to me, was always about... Joel seeing that Ellie was going to be okay. That she was still in there. Because when you are a parent and you see your child hurt, one of the lies that fear tells you is, "It will ever be thus." So you panic and you begin to worry about the future. And what, "Is she going to be okay? Is she going to just end up spiraling into misery? Is she going to end up killing herself?" These are the things that happen, like, within the blink of a parental eye. And then he sees this, and he's like, "She's still in there. She's going to be okay." And what I like about where we go next, and it was the same in the game was, "Hey, you know, we don't have to actually go any further. So we can stop here." 
Troy: This is interesting. I think the mark of a good scene is when two people can look at the scene and see two different things.
Craig: Interesting. Now, what do you see? 
Troy: For me, as Joel-- And I remember shooting this so well, and what spawns that parental moment within Joel is him wanting to show her something that is pure and innocent. And to me, one of the most unsung, maybe even unnoticed, lines of Ellie. He introduces her to something pure and innocent, and she meets it with the profane. She says, "So fucking cool." 
Craig: "So fucking cool." Which we did exactly the way you did it, Ashley. 
Troy: Unintentional. But to me, that is an Ellie moment. And that's where it's so connected. But to me, there's a sadness in Joel of realizing that the innocence is gone and that she is forever changed. That to me is why he says, "We don't have to do this." 
Neil: That is the opposite.
Craig: It's interesting how wrong you are. That's fascinating that you could be such a good Joel and be so wrong. 
Troy: Both of them are motivated.
Craig: Let's-- All right, Ashley, split the ticket. And she's like, "You're both wrong." 
Neil: No, no. I'll tell you who's right. All right. Go for it, Ashley. 
Ashley: That moment is... I mean, there's a world where it's both, in a way. That moment has always been really sad to me. It's so beautiful, but it is sad because it's always felt like that is the moment in the game where I feel like Ellie, the innocence is gone. Like, after all of the winter section and sort of seeing like, "Oh yeah, the world can be really awful. And I see that now." And so now, from that point on, there's a lot less trust that she's going to have with the world and with people, which can be a good thing. But I feel like with the giraffe-- Yeah, it's this moment of, "Yeah, that's so fucking cool." Where it's not the excitement that she probably would have had before. It's just kind of like, "Wow, that's fucking cool." I don't know. It's always just felt kind of sad to me. Like, "Yeah, I see there's some cool parts in the world, but..." 
Neil: I mean, there's definitely a sadness that Joel feels, but from my perspective, it's closer to what Craig was talking about.
Craig: You're both wrong. 
Neil: Which is like, again, I don't want to reduce this to a formula, but, you know, when we construct this thing, it's like we look at, architecturally, where we are with the characters. It's like, she just had this thing with David. We're showing the damage, the mental damage it's had on her. And Joel is panicking a little bit, and he's trying to talk to her, he's trying to pull her out of this funk. And he cannot, no matter what he does. And he's even trying to joke with her about blowing up the debris in front of them instead of going-- 
Craig: Playing boggle. 
Troy: Right. 
Neil: And it's not him that does it. It's this magical, natural thing. And so much of this show is, like, nature reclaiming its domain. I remember the first time I saw a giraffe. It's such a beautiful creature, and it's so large. It's got these beautiful black, giant eyes. Like, all of a sudden, this-- where this kid has been gone, right, it's just been-- She brutalized it out of her system by, like, destroying David's face and everything David has done to her. And all of a sudden, you hear laughter and joy.
Craig: "You gotta see this. Come on, come on, come on, come on." 
Neil: And that's the light bulb moment for Joel that he hasn't thought about, this moment was like, okay, he made this promise to Tess. I'm going to take this kid all the way. And all of a sudden, it's like, "But for what? Why? She could lose not only her life but her fucking-- her entire kind of, like, mental well-being. And that's when he says, "We don't have to." 
Joel: Look, I don't know exactly where this hospital is. 
Ellie: Yeah, we'll find it. 
Joel: Sure. It's just... Maybe there's nothing bad out there, but so far there's always been something bad out there. 
Ellie: You're still here though. 
Joel: I know. I'm only saying there's risk. You don't have to do this. I just-- I want you to know that. 
Ellie: What do you mean? What else are we supposed to do? 
Joel: Nothing. We just go back to Tommy's. We forget about the whole damn thing. 
Ellie: After all we've been through. Everything I've done. It can't be for nothing.
Craig: The only concern that he has at that moment, he's not thinking, like, "Oh, and when we get to the hospital, they're gonna, you know, need to kill you to get this thing out of the middle of your brain." He's just saying, "There's always been something bad out there between where we are now and where we're going. There's always a chance that something bad will happen." Maybe, already, he's like, "Maybe already the world isn't worth it." 
Neil: Yeah. And what Ellie says, right? It's like, "After everything I've done." Like the guilt that she feels from the sacrifice that other people have made and the horrible things she's committed. "I have to finish this. Afterwards, we'll do whatever you want." 
Craig: Right. 
Neil: "But I must finish."
Craig: And she says, "I'll follow you anywhere you go," which I love. It's like, you know, "Sheep ranch, the moon, wherever you want to go." Like, she's saying to him, "I love you. And you're special to me." 
Neil: And I have to do this.
Craig: "And we have to do this. No matter what." This rebirth leads us to this other discussion where he reveals something. And this was something that we had set up very carefully. And in episode three, Joel tells the story of the scar on his head. And he says, "Yeah, somebody shot at me and missed. And I shot back and I missed." And here he tells Ellie, "Okay, it was me. That was the same guy. I tried to kill myself." And he's telling her this, and she's like, "I know why you're telling me this. You know, so time heals all wounds." And he says, "It wasn't time that did it." It's so gorgeous and just true. And then the look on Bella's face, as Ellie, realizing the enormity of what he's saying and the fact that it hadn't even occurred to her. That this whole time, he's been this person that she looks up to, and this person that saves her, and this person that she wants to save because she wants that father in her life. She needs that connection. But never did it occur to her what she meant to him. It was always, "What do you mean to me?" And when a child hears something like that, it is overwhelming to them. And you can see her struggling to process it. I think we wrote this in the script, like, literally, "This is how they say I love you." They don't say "I love you." How they say I love you is they talk around it. So he's basically, without saying, "I tried to commit suicide," he says, "I tried to commit suicide." And then without saying "I love you," she says, "Well, I'm glad that that didn't work out." 
Neil: This is the beauty of an adaptation like this, right? Because in the game, same location and a vulnerable moment between Joel and Ellie is like, we see that Ellie stole this picture of Sarah from Maria, and now she decides to give it to Joel, and he accepts it and starts talking about Sarah at this moment. And we, in our conversation, we decided, like, "Yeah, the picture is not as grounded as how the show is turning out to be." Because there is a whole backstory of Tommy went back to their house and got it. So we decided not to do the picture, and now we replace it with this other moment. Like, we laid track for it in episode three. And it's just a different vi-- Like, again, like similar opening up for each other and arriving in a totally different way that works for this medium.
Craig: Yeah. And you just go, "Well... in a moment like that, how could you not want these two people to spend the rest of their lives together?" And I think 45 seconds later, people are attempting to take them apart forever. And I think maybe other shows have-- "They hug." You know? And one of them says, "I love you." In this show, they're like, "You know what I'm in the mood for? Shitty puns." If he's going to be like, "I want you to read me puns," that is the two of them saying, "I love you forever." 
Neil: Well, I think that both characters are a little allergic to being overly sentimental. 
Craig: Yes. 
Ashley: Yeah.
Craig: Yes. But that is maybe even more sentimental. 
Neil: All right. So, we're recording this now, right after episode three aired. And the response to that, which was overwhelmingly positive and beautiful, but I've seen some people say, "Filler," or, "What does this say to the larger story?" Look at what Bill says to Frank. Right? Which is like, "You are my purpose." And this is even a further expression of that thought. Again, when it's your child, that is your purpose. That becomes your entire life.
Craig: Yes. The notion that there is no such thing as life without you. That I don't even understand what life would be without you. "It's a pointless life without you" is set up in episode three. If Bill doesn't go through this life with Frank, he's not going to write that letter and leave the letter behind. And the letter is not going to say to Joel, "Let me define you for who you are. And let me point out something I know that maybe you haven't figured out. This is why we're here. We are here to protect the person we love. And God help any motherfuckers that get in our way or stand in our way." Now, all these things that we've been talking about, right? That all roads lead to this moment. And so maybe the least filler-y thing we did across this entire season was the Bill and Frank story because it is the... like I said, the skeleton key for everything that happens. 
Neil: The beauty of-- Again, like, the structure of these scenes and how they follow one another is, like, the thing that she needed the most. Right? It's not him telling her a joke or giving her Chef Boyardee or whatever he finds. It's him being vulnerable with her and being honest with her. And connecting with her. 
Craig: That's what does it. And what you will see throughout this episode-- You can make a list and check it off how many times, in an attempt to connect with her before the moment where he's honest. And then also later, after he has been incredibly dishonest. Referencing their journey to this point. "Chef Boyardee, remember? It's a five-hour hike. We can do that. Remember?" There's a lot of, "Hey, we used to be pals, and that was fun. And let's just go back to what that was. Remember?" 
Neil: "Hey, remember how you wanted me to sing? I'll do that for you." 
Craig: "Yeah, I'll do that. Remember I said I was going to sing? I'll fix a guitar. I'll teach you how to play guitar. Remember?" 
Troy: I have a question for you, Craig, 'cause I've asked Neil this. What do you think Ellie knows is going to happen once she gets to the Fireflies? Is there any awareness of the process, in your mind? 
Craig: No. One of the reasons why, at the beginning of episode six, or early on, Ellie tells Joel that she tried to save Sam. And one of the things that was important to get out there between the two of them was that she didn't really understand the science of it, nor would any 14-year-old understand that. But also, Joel hasn't contemplated or anticipated anything beyond, I don't know, they're just gonna-- 
Neil: Collect a sample.
Craig: They're gonna collect a sample, and they're gonna run it through their machines. They're going to do something. But at no point is he like, "Well, actually, it didn't occur to me, but maybe they'll have to murder you for it." Like, that was not on the table. I don't think either one of them anticipated that that was what it was going to take. Because if that's what it was going to take, I think Joel would have figured out a way to maybe just never get there. 
Neil: Right. There's no way he goes on this journey knowing that. And you can see the shock on his face when Marlene tells him.
[/End Audio from TV show] Marlene: You are the one person I never wanted to be in debt to... but I owe you. We all owe you. 
Joel: Just take me to her.
Marlene: I can't. She's being prepped for surgery. 
Joel: What surgery? [/End Audio from TV show]
Craig: It takes him a second or two, and then it's just, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nope. No." 
Neil: "Find someone else."
Craig: "Find someone else. No." 
Neil: You can sacrifice another kid. Not my kid. 
Craig: Not this one. 
Troy: What do you think brought Marlene to accept that decision, but Joel does not?
Craig: Marlene didn't raise Ellie. Marlene did what she said she would do, which is she would keep Ellie safe. She would find somebody to bring her up and keep her safe. Check, check, did it. But Marlene is not there day in and day out. Marlene is not repeatedly saving Ellie's life. Ellie has never saved Marlene's life. But by the time we get to here, that's what Joel and Ellie have done with each other in every way you can imagine saving a life. 
Troy: A lot of miles between the two of them. 
Neil: But Marlene, also, her personality is she's a leader that can make the hard sacrifices for the betterment of humanity. She's constantly sending Fireflies to their death. People that she's very close to. 
Troy: This is her purpose. 
Neil: And I think that's-- that's who she is.
Craig: You have to be utilitarian if you're trying to achieve a goal. So, back in episode five, Perry, played by our beloved Jeffrey Pierce, he tells Kathleen, "You're the only one who changed things. Not your brother, who was the idealist. You, the utilitarian, you changed things. You're the reason we're free." If Marlene is going to somehow free America and try and get back some semblance of democracy, then she has to be a utilitarian, and this is the trolley problem writ large. People have been talking about this forever. And the truth is that if your goal is to save as many human lives as possible, if that is what you believe is the morally correct thing to do, then Marlene is making the right choice. 
Troy: Break some eggs.
Craig: But that is why the trolley problem is a problem. It's-- You know what I mean? And people have been debating the end of The Last of Us since it came out ten years ago. And I can only assume that people are debating it now. I know we sound innocent because we haven't gotten there yet. There may be riots in the streets. I don't know. Um, but people will debate this. And people may look to this podcast for some sort of answer. And an answer will not be forthcoming because the truth is, you can make an excellent argument either way. 
Neil: Well, we debated. 
Craig: Of course. 
Neil: Even as we were working, we were debating whether it's the right thing or not, and...
Craig: It's beyond right or not. It comes down to... there is an instinct within all of us to do it this way, and there's an instinct within all of us to do it this way. And there's a lot of discourse about-- that tries to rationalize why one decision would be better than another. And I have no problem with people engaging it. It's kind of fun to do as a party game. But the reality is, it's a dilemma. And the point of a dilemma is it ain't easy, and there isn't one right answer. And I can make an outstanding argument that Joel should have done exactly what he did and said exactly what he said to Ellie after. And I can make an outstanding argument that he shouldn't have done any of that. And that's kind of the point, that as flawed human beings, this is one of the prices we pay for loving people. Loving people tends to trump simple morality. And that's where Joel finds himself with Ellie. 
Neil: Well, yeah. Intellectually, you can make the argument, "This choice would save the most people." But this is not an intellectual exercise. 
Ashley: I don't care about those people. I don't even know them. 
Neil: When you're a parent. Just a quick anecdote 'cause when I was working on the story of The Last of Us, I was talking with my dad. You know, we're from Israel, so steeped in Israeli politics. There was this guy that was kidnapped, Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier. He was held hostage for several years. And to get him back, Israel traded hundreds of prisoners in return, some of which were tried for pretty horrible crimes. So, I asked my dad, like, "Do you think they did the right thing?" And my dad goes, "Are you asking me as the prime minister of Israel or as the kid's father? Because I can give you two very different answers. As the prime minister of Israel, I think it was a mistake that made Israel weaker. As the kid's dad, I would have traded the entire country for my son." 
Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.
Craig: And that is sort of what it comes down to. And we actually need that instinct. So, human instincts are not perfect. Human instincts are designed to protect your reproduction and the selfish gene and all that. But they don't always fire off in ways that make sense. The story I remember from my early fatherhood, my first kid was maybe two months old, and my wife and I are wheeling this baby down the street. Finally asleep. Finally. And an unmuffled Harley Davidson goes riding by. So loud. Baby is now awake, screaming. And I honestly wanted to murder him. I'm not saying figuratively. I'm saying for a moment, I was like, "I'm going to run down the street. He's gonna hit a red light, and I'm going to get him. And I'm gonna pull him off that bike. I'm gonna kill him." Because he woke my baby up? One of the powers of love is that it will motivate your hand to violence. And the really interesting thing is, who do you root for in a situation like that? Because I know when I played the game for the first time, and I was playing as Joel, but I understood, you know, look, this is something that Joel is doing. It's not necessarily something I would choose to do. But what would I do, and am I rooting for him? That became very complicated for me. And in the end, I think what I was so struck by when I played the game, and why the thought of adapting it was so exciting to me, was I felt a lot of things all at once. And that is hard for people to quantify. It makes people upset. I think it makes people uncomfortable. I think people want to concretize the choices and justify the choices one way or another because it's comforting to them. But I would suggest to people that they ought to sit in the discomfort and uncertainty of the choices that were made because that's kind of the point. 
Neil: What was fun is when we were making the game, we would play test the game. And usually we do that to make sure that, like, people aren't getting stuck, and what we're trying to convey needs to convey. And then at the end, one of the questions we would ask if they finished the game is like, "What did you think of Joel's choice in this moment?" If the player was not a parent, it was 50/50 where they-- like they say, "Oh, I think Joel was the villain. That was the twist." Or like, "No, I totally agree with what he did." If the player was a parent, a hundred percent, with zero exceptions, they agreed with Joel. 
Craig: Yeah. 
Ashley: Whoa! 
Neil: Zero exceptions. 
Troy: We have one of the best action sequences of the entire season in this moment. This was something that obviously, Neil, you helped craft in the game. What was important to you about carrying that over into the show? And Craig, what were you the most excited about adapting from that into the show? 
Neil: I remember our conversation about it was that Joel would be-- anybody that stands in his way is dead. And even if they turn their back to him, they're dead. We eventually spared the two nurses in the room. 
Troy: That's one of my questions because all data points to the opposite. 
Neil: But there's a good reason for that. Like, they're not armed, and they're terrified for their lives, and he didn't see them as a threat. Everybody else, even as they're, like, crawling away, they're on his path towards that operating room. He is not sparing any of them. And the other thing is, like, it's interesting you describe it as an action sequence. And in some ways, it is. Like, Craig and I are huge fans of Unforgiven, which is a Western that has all this restraint. It deals with violence and has very little violence until the very end. And this was like our version of that. But it was important not to treat it as adrenaline-pumping shootout. 
Troy: John Wick. 
Neil: It's sad. Like, what you see this guy has to do is sad, and the music is reflecting that. It's not meant to glorify this moment. It just shows he's just turned off whatever part of his brain that sees these other people as human. And they're just an obstacle to get to Ellie. 
Troy: Pedro, this is one of his best moments because to play an emotion is one challenge, to play crying, to play angry, whatever it is, whatever that looks like, however we play that emotion. To play empty is truly remarkable.
Craig: He's dissociating. The rules in my head that we were following were simply, if someone had a gun, they had to die. Not because he was angry at them, because they were armed, but because, let's say the guy puts his gun down and surrenders, let's say Joel doesn't shoot him, which you would think'd be the noble thing to do. It's probably the honorable thing to do to avoid a war crime trial. You walk away, that guy picks his gun back up and shoots you in the back, Ellie dies. At this point, he is utilitarian. He is entirely about a simple, utilitarian decision. It's just the opposite utilitarianism of Marlene's. "I will kill all of these people even if, you know, they put their gun down because the only thing I care about is saving Ellie." Those nurses aren't-- They can't kill Ellie. They can't kill him. The surgeon comes at him with a knife. Boom. Doesn't even think about it. Doesn't even look at the guy. He no-look shoots him because he's no longer concerned with anybody else's humanity. And what we are also seeing here is the manifestation of something that Maria warned Ellie about back in our sixth episode because Maria has heard from Tommy what Joel has done. All Ellie ever heard was his nonresponse to her question, "Did you kill innocent people?" But what Maria knows from Tommy is exactly what they did, which is-- was probably very cruel because Joel is capable of dissociating. And that is something that people who have experienced severe trauma can do. And the music choice here was incredibly important. We went around and around. I mean, there was all sorts of versions. And the first versions, as you might expect, had sort of, you know, more action-y music or darker music. And it was making me all crazy. And so, I do-- A lot of times when there's a music problem, what do I do? I go back to Gustavo, and I just start listening and listening and listening. And I'm like, "Wait, what if we took the saddest music he's written?"
♪ ("THE LAST OF US" BY GUSTAVO SANTAOLALLA PLAYS) ♪ 
Neil: Which is the music that plays at the hospital when you're carrying Ellie out of the operating room.
Craig: Exactly, and that's what, like we said, emotionally, there is no difference to him between, "I'm killing these people" and "I'm carrying her out." It's all connected. And the heartbreak of it is we're watching somebody burn his own soul to save the person he loves. 
Troy: There's a moment that, going back to that episode where he talks with Tommy, and Tommy says, "There were other ways, we just weren't any good at them." And for me watching this, this is Joel, as you say, burning his own soul, realizing, "This is the one thing that I'm good at."
Craig: And man, he really is good at it. And we were careful. And this really comes out more in the editing, I think, than in anything else because when you're shooting action sequences, it's very odd. It's a lot of like jumping around and "Bang! Bang!" And the blanks are going, "Pop! Pop!" And then the cork hits are going, "Pi-too-wee!" And it's very nuts and bolts-y, like, how you're doing it. But in editing this with Tim Good, we wanted it to be less about a kind of physical competence and more about a mental competence. Everybody else is freaking out, and he's not. It's that Hannibal Lecter thing. He ate her face and his heart rate never went above 68 or whatever. It's just, when Joel dissociates and enters this mode, he is simply calmer than everyone else. He has no fear. He's just doing what needs to be done. 
Neil: There's a beautiful conversation in Unforgiven where he's like, "Clint Eastwood is not the fastest shot, he's just the calmest shot." Like when he gets to that moment, he doesn't panic.
Craig: Yes. The journalist played by Saul Rubinek says, you know, "Who did you shoot first? An experienced gunfighter will always go for the other experienced gunfighter first." And he's like, "Yeah, I got lucky in the order. But then again, I've always been lucky when it comes to killing folks." And that's-- that's kind of his way of sort of expressing this thing of just like... I don't know. In this moment, Joel shows us that he's got that same thing. 
Neil: It's just-- It's such an interesting-- Like when you search your own feelings, when you're watching this sequence, you're rooting for Joel. Like, we're talking about it kind of with a smile. Like, we're excited for what he's doing. And at the same time, think about who he's killing. He's killing people that have dedicated their lives to help mankind in this fucked-up world. And he's murdering them left and right to get to this girl. 
Craig: Yeah. And they are following orders. 
Neil: Yeah.
Craig: Half the people he's killing probably don't even know that there's a girl, and-- They don't even know anything about it. Like, they're just there that day to, you know, because their friend was-- had a cold and they had to sub in. It was like... It's why we show the bodies. You know? It's important. 
Neil: Anybody that's a threat, he kills them. And then at the very end, there's one exception, which is Marlene, who puts her gun down. 
Craig: Yeah. 
Neil: He shot her. She already can't chase him. He's got the car, and he still goes back for her because he can't even take the chance that she will regroup, change her mind, and come after him. And that's the part where I think when people sometimes ask me like, "Do you think Joel did the right thing or the wrong thing?" Like, for me, I always say, "I hope I would have the willpower that Joel has in that same situation." I don't think I would. Except for the Marlene part. To me, that's the part where he goes too far. 
Troy: Do you think that's true? He goes, "You'd just come after her." As opposed to... 
Neil: Well, he's probably correct, in that we've seen Marlene. Like, the sacrifices she's willing to make. This isn't going to stop her.
Craig: Yeah. This is why, again, we recreated that moment one for one because it was so powerful to watch. Not just that moment. We recreated the entire editing pattern because it was so powerful to watch when I played the game. Marlene says, "Just let me go." Well, that was her mistake because-- because what she's saying is, "I might actually survive this gunshot wound you've given me in my belly." Therefore, no. 'Cause if you do live, and he's right, she will come after Ellie. 
Neil: Yeah. 
Troy: There is the moment of doubt, too, when you just see Joel in the truck.
Craig: The way it laid out in the game was so... terrifying, in a weird way, to me. And it made his conversation with Ellie in that car so much worse, and therefore better. And Pedro did both sides of that gorgeously because you see him holding Ellie, and he's like-- the look on his face is, "Fuck, she's right. She's right." And the thing that Marlene says to him that sort of seals it is, "You know, 'cause I think she would want to do what's right, and you know it." Like Marlene goes, "Wait a second, I'm not explaining shit to you that you don't get already. You already know you're doing something bad and that if she had a choice, she would say, 'Absolutely sacrifice me to save the world.'" 
Neil: But what Marlene doesn't know is that he's been in this moment before. Right? Holding his daughter in front of someone that is trying to make the call for what's best for humanity of like, trying to prevent this thing from spreading. And he's not going to fail again.
Craig: Not this time. And then on the other side of that cut, seeing him in the car alone, you can be forgiven if you thought he had-- he had left Ellie in the hospital with Marlene because that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. And the expression on his face is incredibly ambiguous until we hear her moving. And we are very close to the game from this point to the end because, well, endings matter, and the ending is correct. And we do not change things that are correct. 
Troy: We find ourselves on the last hike.
Craig: Yeah. 
[Audio from TV show:] Joel: Look, sometimes things don't work out the way we hope. You can feel like... like you've come to an end. And you don't know what to do next. But if you just keep going, you find something new to fight for. And maybe that's not-- 
Ellie: Swear to me. Swear to me that everything you said about the Fireflies is true. 
Joel: I swear. [/End Audio from TV show]
Troy: It was something that I remember when we were shooting the game, coming to you, Neil, and when we first saw the script for the last scene, I remember looking at you and saying, "Are you afraid that people are going to hate this?" And you said, "No. I'm just-- I don't care if they hate it or if they love it. I just don't want them to be ambivalent." And to you, that would have been the mark of failure is if they didn't feel anything. But first, I don't think I've ever asked you this, Ashley. Do you believe that the "Okay..." is it her believing the lie, or is it her accepting the lie? 
Ashley: I don't feel like it's either. You know, and this also sets up the rest of their story in Part II. I think she sees that he's lying. And the "Okay" is like, "All right, we're done. You're not being truthful with me, and I can't trust you. Like, I love you, but this was one thing that my life would have mattered, and I could have maybe made a difference somehow. And that's taken away from me now. And like, what is my-- Who am I now? Like, I don't know-- This person that I've gone on this journey with, that I care so much about, is choosing to lie about something so huge." And she-- Like, Ellie... Like, her bullshit detector is the best. She knows he's lying. Like, she-- she feels it. 
Neil: She is pretty smart. 
Ashley: She doesn't know the extent of it. But something's off. So it's like, it's not choosing to believe the lie, or it's just like, "Okay, the rest of our relationship is going to be a little different."
Craig: I feel, watching Pedro and Bella, the same thing that I felt watching you and Troy. And that is, I'm not sure if Ellie is saying, "Okay. You're lying to me, and I'm just going to hand wave it away and move on." Or if she's saying... 
Ashley: I don't think she'd do that.
Craig: ..."Okay. You're lying to me, and we're now forever changed in a negative way." Or is she saying, "You're lying, but you just told me you're not lying, and it's incredibly important to you, and I love you. And I'm going to say, 'Okay, I'm just gonna decide to not dwell on the lie.'" Or is she so terrified that what she's suggesting happened happened, that she wants to believe him because the alternative is terrifying to her. It can be any of those things. 
Ashley: Absolutely.
Craig: But that's why I love it. I mean, for a guy that was constantly calling Neil, saying, "What if Bill and Frank had a life together? What if Sam were deaf? What if we-- It was Kansas City. What if? What if? What if? What if?" And this time, I was like, "No, no, no. And then at the end, he's going to say the thing, and then she's going to say, "Okay," because that's correct." 
Troy: For me, the setup to the... "Swear to me that everything you said..." is the moment before that, the beat before it. When, in the game, Joel says... "I struggled for a long time with surviving. And what I learned is that no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for." And he panics and throws the only thing he knows to be true, which is... "No matter what, you just keep finding something new to fight for." In this, he says, "If you just keep going, you'll find something new to fight for." Tell me the differentiation. I'd love to know.
Craig: I think it was maybe just a flow thing. But also, if there was one thing that we wanted to maybe pull on thread-wise that led us to adjust the language slightly, it was that we wanted Joel to be engaging in rhetorical bluster. That when you're caught, you start rattling. You start rambling. You start going. And he's entering this kind of platitude cloud that will tell you to, "Hey, you just buck up there, kiddo, and you'll find something better. And don't worry about those people who died, and we have a whole life ahead of us. And you'll see, everything will be fine." Parents love to tell kids that everything is going to be fine because parents need everything to be fine. 
Ashley: Yeah, Ellie's like, "Don't adult me right now."
Craig: Exactly. And that's what I-- Bella does this great thing, like, when Joel interrupts, "None of that's on you." And she's like, "I know, like... Shut the fuck up. I'm trying to say something important." And then he starts talking. And I remember talking with Bella on that mountain. I was like, "You don't hear a goddamn word he says from that point. At that point, all you're doing is like, 'Do I say it? Do I say it? Do I say it? Do I say it?'" And then, finally, she just has enough of Joel's talking and just says, "Swear to me. Stop talking. I wasn't listening to any of that. All the lead-up I just did was me dancing around something. The dancing is over. Swear to me that you didn't kill a bunch of people and lie to me." And that's when Pedro, as Joel, and you as Joel, do this kind of amazing thing, which is to lie exactly the way human beings lie. There is no like... "I-- I swear!" No. When we lie, we just lie. "I swear." Right in her eyes. Didn't look away. Very important. Very important to not look away. Looked right at her. "I swear." 
Neil: Earlier, right, you were-- Troy, you were asking like, does Ellie know what would happen to her at the hospital? I don't think she knew before. But I think because of the lie, she knew after. 
Craig and Ashley: Yes. 
Neil: And that, to me, is, again, how smart Ellie is. 'Cause like, again, when you're asking Craig like, "What could it be?" And I agree with each one of those interpretations, each one of those is probably true to some degree. And she's probably going through all of them right in that moment. But none of those interpretations is she believes the lie.
Craig: Exactly. 
Neil: That is not on the table. 
Ashley: No. She's so smart, she knows. And she's already doing the math of like, "If that did happen, and he did take me out, why would he do that? Oh, it's 'cause my life was on the line." And that's why she's rattling off all these people that died. And she's trying to get to a point of like, "This was meant to be." And again, this gets so much into, like, where the story goes.
Craig: That's a great point though. Like, even if what she's saying when she says "Okay" is, "You know what, I choose to believe you. And let's just move on with this." It was, "I choose to believe you." Not, "I believe you." There was never a thing where she was like, "Oh, well, okay, well, if he says that he swears, then it's got to be true." 
(OVERLAPPING CHATTER) 
Neil: There were raiders, and we had to leave.
Craig: That ain't the thing that happened. So it's one of the other 4,000 things, or all of them in combination. But that's why the ending of this game is so great, and that's why I was so happy to be able to adapt it. And that's why, for all the fun we have changing things, there are times where you just don't because you change the end of The Last of Us, you're a fucking idiot. I don't know how else to put it. 
Neil: I agree.
Troy: It is a very bold way to do a season finale. But if you've taught us anything, both of you, throughout this entire season, is just because you've played the game, doesn't necessarily mean you know what's coming. What are you most excited about, at least hinting towards, for season two with the story?
Neil: You can expect us to repeat the same process.
Craig: Yes.
Neil: Which is we will look at what made that story special and what is the soul of that story. And that needs to remain intact. And then, the moment-to-moment beats and characters, they might stay the same, they might change. We will do what needs to happen to that story as it transfers from one medium to another.
Craig: And we will also take advantage of the freedom we have in television that wasn't there in the game. Specifically, the advantage of changing perspective. So, we will use what we can use in a new medium to tell that story. And we will go through the same process of adaptation. It's us again, and there will be Pedro, and there will be Bella, and we have-- 
Ashley: And there will be blood.
Craig: And there will be blood. 
Ashley: There's something that-- and I don't know if this will ever transfer over to the game from the show. But in watching the episodes, and how the fungus is a little different, and how where you step on things, and it can attract hundreds.
Craig: Yes. 
Ashley: When I watched that, I was like, "I want to play that because that's terrifying." 
Neil: Yeah, that's exactly what I told Craig when he pitched it, I'm like, "You motherfucker." 
Ashley: "You motherfucker, why didn't I think of that?"
Craig: And that, I will say, is something that-- 
Ashley: (GROANS) I want to play that.
Craig: ...I think we will be exploring further in the next season. I think this first time around, we were learning so much about how to create the Infected and how to televise them in a way that was exciting and didn't seem goofy or weird or artificial, or-- And I think we figured out that. And I think this next season, the interconnectivity of them, and the risk of stepping on the wrong thing, that stuff is going to be brought forward more for sure. 
Ashley: 'Cause that whole underground network is real. It's so cool. 
Neil: One other thing that's kind of related to Part II, but I think it's just worth pointing out for this episode is like, obviously, there's a character named Abby that's very important. But the brilliant woman who played her, Laura Bailey, makes a cameo in this episode. 
Craig and Ashley: Yes! 
Neil: She is one of the nurses in the operating room.
Craig: Yes. Laura Bailey. I mean, this is how cool Laura is. I'm like, "Look, we're down to the final days of our production. It'll be so awesome to get you in there. Here's what I got. What I got is a nurse. But the nurse is wearing a surgical mask." And she's like, "That's even better. I'll just be like this secret cameo that no one knows about," and now everyone does. So, Laura flies to Calgary and hangs out with us, and puts the mask on, and-- 
Neil: So, she played one of the nurses in the game in the operating room. That was the first time I worked with her. And she also, I think, played the reporter in the beginning of the story. She, like, played like-- 
Troy: Her and Travis both. 
Neil: Yeah, like a bunch of different characters. And I loved what she did so much, I'm like, "You're going to be one of our main characters when we go to the sequel." 
Craig: She's great. 
Neil: She sent me the funniest picture because I couldn't be there for the shoot. But with the doctor dead on the floor, in a puddle of blood, she stands over him, smiling, giving the peace sign. And I laughed so hard when she sent me that. (LAUGHTER) 
Troy: Wherever you guys decide to go with season two, whether it be to the moon or to a sheep ranch, we will follow you wherever you go. 
Craig: Thank you. 
Troy: And that's where we're going to leave the conversation for now. This has been the podcast for HBO's The Last of Us. Thank you again to Craig Mazin, to Neil Druckmann, and especially to Ashley Johnson.
Craig: Thank you, Troy, for being a fantastic host. 
Ashley: Thank you, Troy.
Troy: It has been my pleasure, and thank you to everyone. 
Neil: You've been okay, Troy. 
Troy: I've been okay. 
Neil: Thank you very much. 
Troy: Thank you to everyone who has participated in these conversations with the podcast. Thank you for watching the show. We hope these stories and this conversation has moved you equally. Stream episodes of the HBO original series The Last of Us on HBO Max. Please like and follow HBO's The Last of Us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And remember, when you're lost in the darkness, look for the light.
Narrator: This is the official companion podcast for HBO's The Last of Us, hosted by Troy Baker. Our producers are Elliott Adler, Bria Mariette, and Noah Camuso. Darby Maloney is our editor. The show is mixed by Hannis Brown. Our executive producers are Gabrielle Lewis and Bari Finkel. Production music is courtesy of HBO. And you can watch episodes of The Last of Us on HBO Max.
Category:HBO's The Last of Us Podcast transcripts