119901-love-for-the-game

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Hello fellow wildstar peeps,
For those of you that brows the forums you may have noticed that negativity threads towards the game have been increasing and range from people complaining about population, content, economy, Q times… etc. Now, with that being said let me clarify that I do agree with many of the concerns and frustrations that the game population has but, few of these threads offer ideas as to how these issues can be address and some of the ideas presented only seems to be focused on a particular class/path and not something that would benefit the game as a whole.
 
I know that you guys are teeming with great ideas and I would love for you guys to post them here in hopes that these ideas can bring us closer as a gaming community and hopefully get the attention of the DEVS and maybe offer them something that they have not thought of before. Your thoughts and suggestions don’t have to be original, they can be something that you’ve seen in other games and you liked or felt that enriched your gaming experience or something that can be reconstructed and build upon.
Before we get started I do have a request, please be constructive in your criticism of the idea of others and explain why they can/cannot work in this particular game setting.
 
1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them.
 
2, Low/high lvl dungeon class sets. This is again an idea that has been present in many mmos and much like tabard has been a particularly useful tool in increasing dungeon activity. This would encourage people to do Q up more frequently in order to obtain their full class/roll set. By increasing the stats of each set based on dungeon difficulty you give players a major incentive to hop in the Q.
 
3, Real money AH. Now, before you jump down my throat let me clarify what is to be sold in said AH and why it would help the game. First, the only things sold in this game would be novelty items just as new costumes, pets, and seasonal knickknacks, the main reason why I think this should be incorporated is because it is something that has worked fairly well in GW2 and it is a source of income going towards the company that would help them continue fueling the game we all love.
 
These are just my ideas please let me know what you think and share yours!!! =) 	
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The real money AH failed in Diablo 3.  If you're talking about novelty/cosmetic items then that would work as a cash shop but not in an auction.  If those items were auctionable then the game would have hundreds of thousands of bots spring up overnight.
 
Love your first two ideas tho!	
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1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them. 
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3, Real money AH. Now, before you jump down my throat let me clarify what is to be sold in said AH and why it would help the game. First, the only things sold in this game would be novelty items just as new costumes, pets, and seasonal knickknacks, the main reason why I think this should be incorporated is because it is something that has worked fairly well in GW2 and it is a source of income going towards the company that would help them continue fueling the game we all love.
 
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			#3. Based on his GW2 reference, I assume he means a cash shop not a RMT AH.	
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Hello fellow wildstar peeps,
For those of you that brows the forums you may have noticed that negativity threads towards the game have been increasing and range from people complaining about population, content, economy, Q times… etc. Now, with that being said let me clarify that I do agree with many of the concerns and frustrations that the game population has but, few of these threads offer ideas as to how these issues can be address and some of the ideas presented only seems to be focused on a particular class/path and not something that would benefit the game as a whole.
 
I know that you guys are teeming with great ideas and I would love for you guys to post them here in hopes that these ideas can bring us closer as a gaming community and hopefully get the attention of the DEVS and maybe offer them something that they have not thought of before. Your thoughts and suggestions don’t have to be original, they can be something that you’ve seen in other games and you liked or felt that enriched your gaming experience or something that can be reconstructed and build upon.
Before we get started I do have a request, please be constructive in your criticism of the idea of others and explain why they can/cannot work in this particular game setting.
 
1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them.
 
2, Low/high lvl dungeon class sets. This is again an idea that has been present in many mmos and much like tabard has been a particularly useful tool in increasing dungeon activity. This would encourage people to do Q up more frequently in order to obtain their full class/roll set. By increasing the stats of each set based on dungeon difficulty you give players a major incentive to hop in the Q.
 
3, Real money AH. Now, before you jump down my throat let me clarify what is to be sold in said AH and why it would help the game. First, the only things sold in this game would be novelty items just as new costumes, pets, and seasonal knickknacks, the main reason why I think this should be incorporated is because it is something that has worked fairly well in GW2 and it is a source of income going towards the company that would help them continue fueling the game we all love.
 
These are just my ideas please let me know what you think and share yours!!! =) 
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			Go F2P	
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Go F2P
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It's a wonder Wildstar has lasted this long given how toxic this community is
 
http://niceme.me/	
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1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them.
 
2, Low/high lvl dungeon class sets. This is again an idea that has been present in many mmos and much like tabard has been a particularly useful tool in increasing dungeon activity. This would encourage people to do Q up more frequently in order to obtain their full class/roll set. By increasing the stats of each set based on dungeon difficulty you give players a major incentive to hop in the Q.
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It's a wonder Wildstar has lasted this long given how toxic this community is
 
http://niceme.me/
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Nope, we just got tired of all the freeloaders constantly whining to put the game free-2-play.
Community clearly stated it's not wanted. So bringing it up is either not being in tune with the community or blatant trolling/riling people up.
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#3. Based on his GW2 reference, I assume he means a cash shop not a RMT AH.
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I'm simply suggesting an idea that could save this game. It's saved worse.
 
I'm curious about some of the inconsistencies in your post. If "we" (what do you mean we?) are getting tired of all of the freeloaders posting about F2P, wouldn't that be indicative of a community that is mostly for F2P? It seems to me that there is a vocal minority, that, for whatever reason, would see this game dead before it goes F2P.
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I'm simply suggesting an idea that could save this game. It's saved worse.
 
I'm curious about some of the inconsistencies in your post. If "we" (what do you mean we?) are getting tired of all of the freeloaders posting about F2P, wouldn't that be indicative of a community that is mostly for F2P? It seems to me that there is a vocal minority, that, for whatever reason, would see this game dead before it goes F2P.	
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1.  We already have the guild holomark.  Given all the guild rewards one can earn, I don't think that would be strictly necessary.  Having "always-on" buffs related to guild purchases instead of unlocking flasks might be a better idea.  Or more holomark visibility, like being able to use it as a piece of housing decor.
 
2.  This isn't a bad idea, but is probably not going to be effective enough to justify its expense in labor.  What they're actually doing in Drop 4 will probably be much more effective; simply increasing the rewards of queueing and running instanced content.  Right now, it's far more efficient to just quest.
 
3.  In no way, shape, or form should there ever be that sort of cash shop in this game.  I wrote a very long post on the subject of many ways NCSoft could acceptably introduce revenue-generating measures without going F2P or putting up an exclusive cash shop.  It's wholly unnecessary and would be at the very least detrimental to quality-oriented game design.
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The real money AH failed in Diablo 3.  If you're talking about novelty/cosmetic items then that would work as a cash shop but not in an auction.  If those items were auctionable then the game would have hundreds of thousands of bots spring up overnight.
 
Love your first two ideas tho!
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Whatever floats your boat.
Community said they did not want this game as F2P, Carbine said they did not want this game F2P.
What NCsoft does with this is up to them, but they have two big camps saying they do not want this.
 
Adding a Cash-shop has been a big debate as well in the community.
While I can see it as a source for additional revenue to support the game, it's also opening Pandora's box. Because the step from "Style Cash-Shop" towards "Pay 2 Win Cash Shop" is an extremely small one.
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I'm simply suggesting an idea that could save this game. It's saved worse.
 
I'm curious about some of the inconsistencies in your post. If "we" (what do you mean we?) are getting tired of all of the freeloaders posting about F2P, wouldn't that be indicative of a community that is mostly for F2P? It seems to me that there is a vocal minority, that, for whatever reason, would see this game dead before it goes F2P.
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Hello fellow wildstar peeps,
For those of you that brows the forums you may have noticed that negativity threads towards the game have been increasing and range from people complaining about population, content, economy, Q times… etc. Now, with that being said let me clarify that I do agree with many of the concerns and frustrations that the game population has but, few of these threads offer ideas as to how these issues can be address and some of the ideas presented only seems to be focused on a particular class/path and not something that would benefit the game as a whole.
 
I know that you guys are teeming with great ideas and I would love for you guys to post them here in hopes that these ideas can bring us closer as a gaming community and hopefully get the attention of the DEVS and maybe offer them something that they have not thought of before. Your thoughts and suggestions don’t have to be original, they can be something that you’ve seen in other games and you liked or felt that enriched your gaming experience or something that can be reconstructed and build upon.
Before we get started I do have a request, please be constructive in your criticism of the idea of others and explain why they can/cannot work in this particular game setting.
 
1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them.
 
2, Low/high lvl dungeon class sets. This is again an idea that has been present in many mmos and much like tabard has been a particularly useful tool in increasing dungeon activity. This would encourage people to do Q up more frequently in order to obtain their full class/roll set. By increasing the stats of each set based on dungeon difficulty you give players a major incentive to hop in the Q.
 
3, Real money AH. Now, before you jump down my throat let me clarify what is to be sold in said AH and why it would help the game. First, the only things sold in this game would be novelty items just as new costumes, pets, and seasonal knickknacks, the main reason why I think this should be incorporated is because it is something that has worked fairly well in GW2 and it is a source of income going towards the company that would help them continue fueling the game we all love.
 
These are just my ideas please let me know what you think and share yours!!! =) 
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Whatever floats your boat.
Community said they did not want this game as F2P, Carbine said they did not want this game F2P.
What NCsoft does with this is up to them, but they have two big camps saying they do not want this.
 
Adding a Cash-shop has been a big debate as well in the community.
While I can see it as a source for additional revenue to support the game, it's also opening Pandora's box. Because the step from "Style Cash-Shop" towards "Pay 2 Win Cash Shop" is an extremely small one.
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I'm not really for or against F2P really, if in a few more months WS is still tumbling head over heels into an early grave, sure, but not right now. But when you say "community" it's a few of the small subset of players that actually post here- those most likely to be against F2P anyways. A small skewed data set is hardly something to champion as the wishes of the larger community.
 
Plus, the CS exec that was against it left (forget his name).
 
@RabidRaccoon
 
I like these ideas, although much more is needed. I could live with a cosmetics shop if it were implemented well.
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Getting back on topic.
 
For #1 - so, guilds have the ability to unlock 7-day guildwide buffs that improve:
 
- Influence gain
- Prestige gain
- Reputation gain
- Experience gain
- Coin gain
 
In my guild we pretty much keep the influence and reputation gain buffs up constantly.  We were doing prestige, but so few people are queuing for PvP right now that we're hoarding those influence points instead for our last guild bank tab.
 
I'm assuming however that what is being asked for is something that's not guild-specific.  Something that any character can do regardless of guild status?  Mainly I'm just trying to understand what the envisioned solution would look like, since people went down the guild road, but I don't think that's what the OP meant?	
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Getting back on topic.
 
For #1 - so, guilds have the ability to unlock 7-day guildwide buffs that improve:
 
- Influence gain
- Prestige gain
- Reputation gain
- Experience gain
- Coin gain
 
In my guild we pretty much keep the influence and reputation gain buffs up constantly.  We were doing prestige, but so few people are queuing for PvP right now that we're hoarding those influence points instead for our last guild bank tab.
 
I'm assuming however that what is being asked for is something that's not guild-specific.  Something that any character can do regardless of guild status?  Mainly I'm just trying to understand what the envisioned solution would look like, since people went down the guild road, but I don't think that's what the OP meant?
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...it's about how many people outside of the game would play if it went F2P.
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I think he meant faction tabbards (as he said) as in separate from anything guild related. The guild 8% isn't that much, something like 5 extra rep per daily mission? It would be cool if I could wear CW colors for example and get a boost that was appreciable. Though it would probably need to be balanced so you could only have 1 tabbard per character inventory. 
 
Just a thought.
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I would say not very many if the game still has issues with performance and bugs. I agree with not going F2P. It wont save the game if the reasons people left it in the first place are not fixed. 
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The thought that I was going with was that even though guild buffs and flasks do indeed give a nice rep gain, said buffs become pretty useless after faction quests(dailies) are completed(dailies). The tabard(costume) idea is more directed towards gaining rep for a particular faction via vet dungeons after dailies are completed, so that instead of waiting till the next day to do dailies and gain rep. you can continually gain rep via dungeons as long as you have a particular faction tabard(costume) on when doing vet dungeons.
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Again, we've had this discussion.  F2P is horrible for players and developers, and not only that but it's probably not even the best choice for the publisher.  If you're interested in reading about FAR better ideas, you could read responses in about twenty different threads on the subject.
 
The bottom line is that F2P has little chance of saving this game.  What it would become would be wholly different in design, intent, and incentive.  If for some reason it is true that what is really holding the game back is 15$ a month (and the large boost in sales after the lowering of the box price would be indicative that it's actually the initial investment that keeps people from trying the game, not the subscription) then there are quite a few better options than F2P.
 
 
 
I wrote this one in September to address the idea of a cash shop (F2P calls were a lot louder pre-Drop 3) and other non-game-altering ways for NCSoft to increase revenue.
 
And this was a pretty good summary of ideas I brought up during that.
 
Figured I'd maybe save you a trip back 2-3 months to comb through that zoo.  In short, there are a lot better ways of generating additional revenue than by setting up an exclusive cash shop, charging for game elements, or going F2P.  That seems to be a "default" solution to a fairly complex problem, and it's not a very good one for anyone involved.  There are even better ways to do cash shops and there is always the idea of non-instrusive in-game advertising.  In fact, there are lots of ways you can, if it's necessary, increase revenue without turning your game into giant Mary Kay party.  It's a red herring and, if we're really interested in keeping the game we love in the face of supposed financial hardship (which, since the last box price drop, doesn't seem to be a huge issue), I think we should at least try to advocate ways of generating that revenue that are at least not as detrimental to us players.
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			   With the last Drop we had "smart drops" in the lightspire event, stuff your character could use- encourage helping lowbies by applying "smart drops" to all events, dungeons and world bosses  even if it's just decor or costume.  Maybe add some kind of bonus for mentoring.   Find reasons to have the bored level cap people in low level zones and helping to bring life to them.	
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or putting a Pizza Hut ordering app into the UI
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Ok, show of hands, who has had this happen:
Raid night, a few hours in.
player 1: "Hang on, guys, I need a minute, pizza is just getting delivered" *noise of putting down head phones*
*silence*
player 2: "Dammit, now I want a pizza!!"
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This was done in WoW to the effect of essentially detuning the grinds that built rep in the first place.  In WoW, this makes some intrinsic sense, in Wildstar I just don't see the need for it.  It's not a horrible idea to get people to queue, I should say, but I don't think it would be the most effective, especially on man hours.  It makes a bit less sense thematically as well.
 
If you're trying to get people to queue more frequently, you're better off appealing to their wallets.  Have a swappable buff that increases the experience, item, and extra money increases that you can switch back and forth for instances.  Hence, if you want a bigger EXP buff while leveling (or later to crank up the elder gem bar fill), you turn that on, or if you want double money you can turn that on, or slightly raise your chances of pulling useful loot or rarer items like dyes and decor.  Then, you aren't limited to just factional reputation, you'll be giving everyone a way to tune their rewards.  Then, even solo players who sit on their house all day will start queueing because the Falkrin flairs are a bit easier to get.
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Dude! that was a fantastic read! I especially like the idea of implementing a small fee for misc. things like, faction, race, and character/guild name change, as well as the purchace of drops that new people have missed e.g. barret, highway man costume, helms.. etc. The F2P part was especially inlightening and it is something that people pushing for F2P need to read and come to understand why its a bad idea. Thanks so much!
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So I kinda like the idea but I also feel like this is supposed to be what reknown does.  Maybe the inventory on the reknown vendors should just be expanded to include tons of costume/decor pieces and more usable gear?
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Ok, show of hands, who has had this happen:
Raid night, a few hours in.
player 1: "Hang on, guys, I need a minute, pizza is just getting delivered" *noise of putting down head phones*
*silence*
player 2: "Dammit, now I want a pizza!!"
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			A method of boosting rep gain is something I've been suggestion for awhile now, they definitely need it to reduce the feel of grinding dailies for rep every day for a month. 14~ days would be very bearable at least.	
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1, One of the things I would like to see incorporated into this game is some sort of faction tabards. This is something that is present in many mmos including WoW, but instead of just one piece of clothing how about class costumes that while wearing said costume it would increase you rep gain by doing vet dungeons. I am particularly fond of this idea because it helps in many respects, it helps speed out rep gain and helps break with the monotony of doing dailies in a particular region where there are not many quests to begin with or the only other way is through events that only occur once every couple of hours and in which you need a full raid party in order to complete them.
 
2, Low/high lvl dungeon class sets. This is again an idea that has been present in many mmos and much like tabard has been a particularly useful tool in increasing dungeon activity. This would encourage people to do Q up more frequently in order to obtain their full class/roll set. By increasing the stats of each set based on dungeon difficulty you give players a major incentive to hop in the Q.
 
3, Real money AH. Now, before you jump down my throat let me clarify what is to be sold in said AH and why it would help the game. First, the only things sold in this game would be novelty items just as new costumes, pets, and seasonal knickknacks, the main reason why I think this should be incorporated is because it is something that has worked fairly well in GW2 and it is a source of income going towards the company that would help them continue fueling the game we all love.
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They can put in any UI-associated advertising that they want, as long as me paying my subscription fee in cash lets me switch it off. But I'm not paying $15/month and putting up with ads. No thank you.
 
... How about if Carbine just sold those same things on their website and left my UI alone?
 
 
No, it really wouldn't be. A Moutain Dew machine makes no more sense here than it would on the Death Star.
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That's why I was said, "...take a few dollars off our subs...."
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What I really want in this game is horizontal progression and alternate ways of progressing after level 50 beyond "Now go do adventures so you can do dungeons so you can go raid! Wait, what do you meanyou don't like that? Would it be better if taught you how to party, cupcake? You clearly don't knowhow to have f- hey, come back!"
 
Ahem. Sorry. While we are at it I'd like to have some of that dehydrated water, Yasfan. It sounds fancy!	
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What I really want in this game is horizontal progression and alternate ways of progressing after level 50 beyond "Now go do adventures so you can do dungeons so you can go raid! Wait, what do you meanyou don't like that? Would it be better if taught you how to party, cupcake? You clearly don't knowhow to have f- hey, come back!"
 
Ahem. Sorry. While we are at it I'd like to have some of that dehydrated water, Yasfan. It sounds fancy!
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It is the best deal in the local vicinity! Right here! Right here!
 
...What, you don' believe me?  ^_^	
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I have some dehydrated water I'd like to sell you.
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I read what you said. If you seriously think Carbine/NCSoft is putting ads in the game and passing the profits from it on to us, I have some dehydrated water I'd like to sell you.
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We're all speaking in hypothetics.  I can't see where that's much worse than turning the game into a giant advertisement for other goods and services to sell us.  The entire premise of that idea is based around the hypothetical failure of the subscription model.  That's what the conversation is about.  I'm not sure how you could have read what I said, understood it in context, and then decided to write a post entirely in ignorance of the subject matter.
 
If you'd like, though, I can read back through this topic and quote you the relevant posts.
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			"F2P"... What a joke. Carbine please DO take my money. It is more than well deserved. While you are there, keep the subscription model. Thank you very much. Oh, and see you on Nexus, cupcakes!  :ph34r:	
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ROFL
 
We already have a real money AH. Why do people think we don't?
 
Real Money > CREDD > Platinum > AH	
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ROFL
 
We already have a real money AH. Why do people think we don't?
 
Real Money > CREDD > Platinum > AH
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^ Excellent point and well said.
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We're all speaking in hypothetics.  I can't see where that's much worse than turning the game into a giant advertisement for other goods and services to sell us.  The entire premise of that idea is based around the hypothetical failure of the subscription model.  That's what the conversation is about.  I'm not sure how you could have read what I said, understood it in context, and then decided to write a post entirely in ignorance of the subject matter.
 
If you'd like, though, I can read back through this topic and quote you the relevant posts.
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Oh, OK. Since apparently speaking in hypotheticals means that we don't need to have even an ounce of realistic perspective, I think Carbine should use the proceeds of our subscription fees to play the MegaSuperPowerball lottery. Then when they win, they can develop the bestest game ever and send all of us refunds of all our money as a way of saying "thanks!" and let us play forever for free.
 
Yeah, that's the way they should do it. 
 
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Are you implying that it is inconceivable for anyone to provide a service without a subscription for the cost of advertising?  I mean, if that's what you believe, that's fine, but that model does exist.  Mostly though, this happens in obscure places like television, radio, and video games.
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			The thought of Carbine going to Pizza Hut, or Pepsi, and pitching to them that their ads can be seen by the HUNDREDS OF PLAYERS playing Wildstar is pretty laughable at best. 	
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You know how it works in obscure places like television and radio? The show stops for 3-5 minutes and displays the ads, then resumes. Are you proposing that for Wildstar? If not, then why do you think advertisers would provide anywhere near enough revenue to support the game if you aren't letting them advertise prominently? 
 
As for video games, are you saying that because it works great for MobileBubblePop XII, it'd work here? Are there in fact any AAA PC MMORPGs supporting themselves off of advertising to a degree large enough to offset subscriptions? Because if there are, I'd love to hear which ones. 
 
Ohhhh. OK, I hadn't realized that the "failure of the subscription model" means that there are actually ZERO subscription dollars coming in for your hypothetical. My bad. You're right, if the game has zero subscription revenue then buying lottery tickets to support it wouldn't work.   :rolleyes:
 
You may want to go back and change where you said this:
 
To reflect that what you meant when you said "take a few dollars off our subs" was "remove subs entirely because the subscription revenue stream has completely died". I certainly know that's where I got confused.
 
Alternatively, you could stop moving the target and just admit that maybe Carbine really wouldn't insert ads so that they could take a few bucks off our subs, because then the advertising revenue would be going to US and not THEM.  :rolleyes:
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As above, you're responding to a broader discussion you haven't read.  The idea of F2P is centered around attracting a slew of new players because the game has no subscription cost.  We are assuming, for the sake of that argument (and outside the realm of hyperbole) that such advertising would lower or eliminate the subscription and hypothetically achieve the same effect.  Again, I raised this point discussing the scenario that the subscription model fails due to lack of input and the F2P model becomes supposedly unavoidable.  The point of the discussion you've joined is to articulate that, even if the subscription model fails, there are other, better alternatives to be considered before the predatory whale-and-guppy model employed in most modern F2P games.
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Assuming huge companies like Pepsi, or Pizza Hut would put resources into advertising their product in a rapidly declining MMO is pretty much right dead center of the hyperbole tornado.
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Not really.  Go to any website on the internet, no matter how obscure, and someone's advertising.  That's why I listed likewise competitive products.  For instance, I doubt Intel would advertise directly, or Fox Network would advertise a new show at that level.  But Pepsi and Pizza Hut?  They're slapping stickers on bus stops and advertising on bench backs.  If they essentially created their own advertising audience, I don't think that's far out of line in rational thinking.
 
Again, the entire thought is that removing the subscription price brings in more people.  The entire premise is that, if we assume that is true (to be honest, I don't necessarily, but it should work to gain a new wave of players if nothing else) then doing so creates the audience they want to reach.  In the game's present condition, that isn't necessary or viable, but that's why we're not talking about the game in its present condition with present audience in static terms.  We're talking about a hypothetical scenario where there is no subscription, and the supposed resevoir behind the dam of the subscription price floods in.
 
Whether that actually happens or not, or is necessary, isn't the point (I've covered that elsewhere).  The point is that, before NCSoft even considers F2P in a traditional respect, I'd assume that's a better way forward than trying to gouge the remaining playerbase for the money to support the F2P model.  Hence why I feel the F2P model is a bit ridiculous.  If you're going to do something of that nature, why make your game an advertisement for the shop when you can make the advertisements in the game directly and otherwise not affect development?
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They slap stickers on bus stops and benches because it's super easy to do, and more people will see it there than there are people playing Wildstar. Also, the question yasfan brought up still goes unanswered.
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Intrusive advertising is my personal "no-fly zone".  Regardless if it's product placement or billboards, Earth based products have no business showing up on Nexus.  I rank that right up there with pop-ups as the height of intrusiveness. 
 
I think people above are right and MMO audiences, including WoW, simply aren't large enough for it to effectively generate sufficient revenue to be worth the development and marketing effort much less the population loss it would incur. 
 
Aha... Google-foo has not let me down: The Myth of Ad-Supported MMO's
 
All the major brands have been down this road.  Remember Second Life?  It ain't happening and it ain't gonna be more profitable than a cosmetic only cash shop and all game producers know this.	
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Intrusive advertising is my personal "no-fly zone".  Regardless if it's product placement or billboards, Earth based products have no business showing up on Nexus.  I rank that right up there with pop-ups as the height of intrusiveness. 
 
I think people above are right and MMO audiences, including WoW, simply aren't large enough for it to effectively generate sufficient revenue to be worth the development and marketing effort much less the population loss it would incur. 
 
Aha... Google-foo has not let me down: The Myth of Ad-Supported MMO's
 
All the major brands have been down this road.  Remember Second Life?  It ain't happening and it ain't gonna be more profitable than a cosmetic only cash shop and all game producers know this.
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We are discussing alternatives to the F2P model.  Hence, yes, we are discussing the hypothetical scenario that there would be no subscription money coming in.  This is what I've been trying to tell you.  The idea of knocking a few dollars off the sub per advertiser is centered around the idea that there would be several sponsors...
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...Ohhhhhh. Wow, I apologize. I genuinely did misunderstand. You're completely correct, I was imagining that you were promoting something far smaller and more limited than you actually are.
 
See, I thought you were proposing that they try to prop up their current business model by branching out into some advertising revenue. That sounded unrealistic to me. Now I realize you are in fact proposing that they replace the current model entirely and fund the entire game off advertising, using unobtrusive ads. Thanks very much for setting me straight. That does change my views on this a bit. 
 
Here's my new opinion.
 
If Carbine goes to NCSoft with that proposal for funding their game, NCSoft will pull the plug faster than you can say "LMAO".
 
"A few dollars per sub per advertiser"? Have you looked at the rates web advertising goes for? They're in the territory of less than a buck per thousand exposures. If each subscription is supposed to be paid off by ad revenues, you're talking about each of us being bombarded by 15,000 ads during game play per month--IF the ad were as "unobtrusive" as a web banner that can't be closed.
 
I will repeat: TV and radio fund their broadcasts by advertising using the ultimate in obtrusive advertising: the show stops for 5 minutes and makes you watch a bunch of commercials for laundry detergent and cars. They couldn't do it on "unobtrusive ads", and their audience base is huge in comparison to Wildstar's.
 
The "maybe they can use our subscription fees to win the lottery" model is starting to sound way more realistic than this is.
 
 
In other words, the company that runs the most successful MMORPG in existence floated a trial balloon with the idea you're proposing, the fans hated it, they couldn't get their business people to come up with a viable model at all, and eventually they pulled the plug on it as a MMORPG and repackaged it as FPS.
 
I believe people here are fond of the phrase "This isn't WoW", but in this context I'm pretty sure that doesn't improve the odds of ads working for Carbine when even Blizzard couldn't figure out how to actually do it.
 
I take it you didn't read the first half of his article, where he explains that Coke will not be advertising in your game--not because you'd drive too hard a hard bargain for them to handle, but because your market isn't big enough for them to give a crap about.
 
Ask yourself how effective that Pizza Hut app is going to be if it's an app for Dr. Scholl's. *facepalm*
 
 
 
Blizzard repackaged Titan into a FPS.
Funcom's not doing MMORPGs any more.
CCP canned World of Darkness.
Blade and Soul is coming out any decade now.
There's a huge flood of F2P crap all over the market, which you certainly can call "industry growth". It's even true, much like the phrase "fungal growth" is also a form of growth.
And of course Wildstar is doing so well that we're currently discussing alternative approaches to keep it alive once its current model crashes and burns.
 
Sounds like he got it pretty much right to me, chum.
 
Pssssst. That's not Pepsi paying WoW. That's WoW paying Pepsi. *facepalm*
 
Microtransactions for in-game items is not advertising. *facepalm*
The criticism of NCSoft has been that it hasn't spent enough on advertising, not that it hasn't made advertising a revenue stream. *facepalm*
 
Seriously, Vic, the Lopp want me to let you know that they want their hookahs back.
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Second, you're applying, I think, a completely ineffective model.  Internet advertising is sold in bulk like that because it's in banners and sidebars that are easily ignored and often only one in a few actual website hits are in fact people who will see ads.  
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In other words, the ads are completely ineffective because they're inobtrusive. I thought inobtrusive advertising was the core of your idea.
 
Really? Even shows with only a little over a million viewers can sell ad space at a higher rate because the ads stop the show while the ad runs full-screen? By golly, now we're talking! Wildstar, you're saved!
 
Yes, and one of the reasons Grimm can do that is that Grimm is set in a modern-day Earth setting. Star Wars can't, because Star Wars is in a setting a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
 
 
 
Stop right there. This idea just got so incredibly obnoxiously bad that I can't believe you seriously typed that and put it up on public forums. I'm done with it except for one more word:
 
NO.
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If we're looking at chances/options for additional revenue (current and possible future changes) in order it would most likely look like:CREDD=Cosmetic Cash Shop > Race&Gender changes > Faction Changes(combined with race/gender) > Server Changes(obsolete for now) > Name Changes.
I don't think any form of real world advertising within game would be worthwhile, it cheapens the world for players as well.	
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If we're looking at chances/options for additional revenue (current and possible future changes) in order it would most likely look like:
 
CREDD=Cosmetic Cash Shop > Race&Gender changes > Faction Changes(combined with race/gender) > Server Changes(obsolete for now) > Name Changes.
I don't think any form of real world advertising within game would be worthwhile, it cheapens the world for players as well.
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First, if you wanted to maturely participate in the conversation, you should have defined what you think is or is not obtrusive, the way PlasmaJohn did.  I can respect his opinion that way.  I've stated what I feel to be intrusive and not.  If you'd like to add your opinion, you're perfectly allowed and it would meaningfully contribute to the topic at hand.  You've not offered a method or example, simply expounded that anything worth showing isn't worth paying for.
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I do agree it's the next to last option.  However, I put it above the F2P model with an exclusive cash shop.  I think my post read something like New Services (guild name changes, name changes, etc) need to come first.  If a cash shop is introduced, I didn't mind as long as every single item released was immediately bought by everyone subscribed (essentially, they could keep dumping subscription rewards in the form of cosmetic items on us, but if you're subbed at the time, you get them, so people buy them to pay into months they weren't around but it's not exclusive).  I just think advertising is a better option than going to a full cash shop and F2P.  At the very least (assuming all things operate as described), the mandate of developers doesn't change; they still want to get as many people and as much good content into the game as possible.  F2P incentivizes them to make sure there's enough stuff we actually want behind a wall we need to buy through with real cash.
 
Honestly, the best case scenario is that this all remains hypothetical.  They seem to be doing okay on subs for now.  At least we seem to have more than a few months ago when this discussion was something like half the front page of GD.
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The problem is not that I'm not saying it, Vic. The problem is that I say it and you pretend you "disproved" it somehow when you say something like this:
as if somehow the problem that I'm pointing out has anything to do with advertising being shoehorned into the game's setting and nothing to do with Pepsi being shoehorned into the game's setting. 
 
It's the exact same objection that PlasmaJohn had, by the way. I explained the problem two days ago. And then PlasmaJohn explained it today. Then I noted that the playerbase of Titan explained it to Blizzard in our discussion earlier today. And then I explained it again, right over where I said no. And then--after you posted that I was just telling you "no" for no obvious reason and that was terribly immature of me--Naix explained it again. 
 
Not once have you ever bothered to even acknowledge that yeah, actually, placing ads for actual modern-day Earth products might be completely inappropriate in the middle of a setting that's not modern-day Earth.
 
So at some point, the problem is no longer that you haven't had the completely obvious fatal flaw in your great idea presented to you. At some point, the problem becomes that you're not bothering to listen to it. Instead, you're throwing up a wall of text that's a very eloquent but not terribly subtle version of  La La La La La I Can't HEAR You La La La La La. So lecture me some more about maturity, Vic.
 
There's no serious conversation to be had here, chum. There hasn't been since you thought it would be hilarious to stick Mountain Dew in the game as a viable revenue stream.
 
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So, yeah, actually, it might be weird to have a billboard for Pepsi in ESO, but not in Wildstar.  We already have billboards, ads, vending machines, and references to Pepsi products.  If anything, Wildstar is uniquely qualified in the greater gaming landscape to take advantage of that if their sub model fails.  Whether you like it or not is entirely subjective and your prerogative, but the idea that it would be jarring considering all those elements already exist doesn't make any rational sense.  Especially given that even references to Pepsi products already exist in the game.
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You're really stretching if you're equating Galerade to serious product placement.  It's clearly satire and intentionally different enough to avoid trademark issues (at least I hope so).  While some advertisers are fine with satirical treatment or subtle refence those are in the minority.  Most of the discussions I've found revolve around how much of the unmodified branding (logos, catch phrases, name, etc.) must be apparent.  Even in-context placement can backfire.
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Then again, I don't have that same vitriol for the concept of advertising that some do.
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In general I hold advertisers in utter contempt thanks to a long sordid history of underhanded practices.  They only behave when heavily regulated like they are on TV and Radio and to a lesser extent when presented in curated content like the various app stores.  I use extremely strict ad-blocking plugins not just because I hate advertising, but because web advertisers have no self-control and don't think twice about inflicting pop-ups, pop-unders, flash ads so loud they blow out your speakers or install "helper bars" into your browser.  As a class, advertisers are slime.
 
Heh... you didn't like my last author, how about Raph Koster?  Ok it's undated, but definitely old because he's debating whether there will be a sub fee for SWG.  :lol:
 
 
IMO, it still holds true today.  Are there any ad-supported MMO's?  My two minutes of google-fu is only coming up with links from 5+ years ago and half of them were referencing an article that WoW was supposed to be.  IMO if in-game ads were a viable alternative to cash-shops, don't you think game publishers would be using it?  (It has been tried already).
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We assume Wildstar has, for example, 200,000 players (as an argument).
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