105473-why-are-people-complaining-about-drop-2

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			Why do so many complain about drop 2? Seriously, I have no idea why and I'm confused. Is the content bad or bugs or what?	
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https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/forum/36-pvp/
 
 
And yes, they introduced a bunch of new bugs.	
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Why do so many complain about drop 2? Seriously, I have no idea why and I'm confused. Is the content bad or bugs or what?
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Why do so many complain about drop 2? Seriously, I have no idea why and I'm confused. Is the content bad or bugs or what?
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			I can only imagine it's because they screwed up pvp so badly and of course the slew of new bugs with the patch.Like this is the first patch I've ever seen in any mmo where the local population seemed to just totally tank after it instead of seeing a huge temporary boost and queue times for battlegrounds went from ~2 minutes before patch to ~2 hours after patch so I can only assume related and it's a mass exodus of pvp community or something lol	
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All this hype how drop 2 would improve pvp and fix a lot of major problems...yet what did they do? They made PvP 10x worse!
 
Hence PvPers in general are kinda upset.
 
But PvEers wouldn't understand that so carry on.	
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All this hype how drop 2 would improve pvp and fix a lot of major problems...yet what did they do? They made PvP 10x worse!
 
Hence PvPers in general are kinda upset.
 
But PvEers wouldn't understand that so carry on.
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And this is why you plan ahead and SEPERATE those systems completely.
 
Anyways, glad to see the ol PvEer vs PvPer forum PvP is alive and kicking.
 
*FIGHT!*	
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			Because they've broken their own game.	
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And this is why you plan a head, you know with 9 years of development and SEPERATE those systems completely.
 
Anyways, glad to see the ol PvE vs PvP forum PvP is alive and kicking.
 
*FIGHT!*
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Then explain Chua this:
How Carbine supposed to test PvP properly? Have probably limited QA team and PTR, which only used by fraction of players most likely.
Tuning PvP is process requiring huge amount of input and feedback from player base.
So how can be tested in advance?
 
Chua has second question, but want to approach step by step
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			Well to tell the truth it looks like they need to do more PTR before they release a drop.	
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One thing that players are complaining about is Carbine's solution to rating-tanking.
 
(As I understand it) They inserted a restriction that disallows any player > 1500 rating from queuing on a team with a player < 1500 rating.  Obviously, there are many teams / groups of friends who have some people at, say, 1490 and some at, say 1510.
 
There really is little more to be said for that kind of 'solution.'  It is obviously short-sighted, testing or no testing.
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That is valid complaint then, and as long as addressed properly is all fine.
Then Chua suggest move to second topic: Class Balance, same question.
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Seems to me if they don't have the numbers to test it externally they are going to have to do a better job of testing it internally. somehow.
 
If they cannot do that, then I guess they will simply accept that they are incapable of balancing pvp?
 
I don't believe you can really blame the player base for this.
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Chua not blaming anyone, Chua trying to show where problem lies with PvP balancing.
PvP balancing is numbers game, any way you turn it, comes down to balancing the right numbers.
 
However, is delicate process as previous "fixes" have shown, can have big consequences.
Chua seen numerous topics where individuals shout in anger their class being nerfed, skill being overpowered or not delivering numbers.
But as with statistics, are outliners. On average will probably even out, but requires large base line of testing.
 
Question is how can baseline be achieved? More testers at Carbine? Yes, could be solution, but increases cost for Carbine, which might not be doable.
More players on PTR? Yes, could be solution, but requires input and proper feedback from player base and Carbine responding on it
Iterative releases? Could also be solution, but then both sides must learn to handle phases where stuff not working as expected.
 
key is feedback, communication and open-ness, which Chua find lacking at the moment from both sides.
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Chua saw topic, and is good example on how to start discussion.
Chua can twitter about it raising attention.	
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Well to tell the truth it looks like they need to do more PTR before they release a drop.
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Chua not blaming anyone, Chua trying to show where problem lies with PvP balancing.
PvP balancing is numbers game, any way you turn it, comes down to balancing the right numbers.
 
However, is delicate process as previous "fixes" have shown, can have big consequences.
Chua seen numerous topics where individuals shout in anger their class being nerfed, skill being overpowered or not delivering numbers.
But as with statistics, are outliners. On average will probably even out, but requires large base line of testing.
 
Question is how can baseline be achieved? More testers at Carbine? Yes, could be solution, but increases cost for Carbine, which might not be doable.
More players on PTR? Yes, could be solution, but requires input and proper feedback from player base and Carbine responding on it
Iterative releases? Could also be solution, but then both sides must learn to handle phases where stuff not working as expected.
 
key is feedback, communication and open-ness, which Chua find lacking at the moment from both sides.
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Yea I agree. I'm guessing the issue is related to the current endgame. People are doing their dailies to make sure they get all of the extra amp and skill points. They don't really want to go to the PTR and do stuff that is not going to help their character in live. 
Carbine could probably get more testers if being on PTR had live rewards that were just too juicy to pass up, or they just let the lvling npcs rank up players who do not have 50s. 
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			Made mistake, PTR should be the same as the live servers.	
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Made mistake, PTR should be the same as the live servers.
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CL,
 
They also "reintroduced" some old bugs!!!!!11!!!
 
(( Looking at you "Helping Hands" )). ;)	
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			Why not just make changes that are only active inside warplots, BGs, arenas, so they don't affect PvE? should be easy enough to do	
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Why not just make changes that are only active inside warplots, BGs, arenas, so they don't affect PvE? should be easy enough to do
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Ellz,
 
"WPvP" is still limited to instances for the most part (as it is in WoW and many other games on the market).  I have yet to play a game these days ( I have not played any MMOFPS')  that was not entirely PvP oriented that has actual WPvP.  Seems to me that any of the old school Lineage 2/SWG (Pre-CU)/MxO and Vanilla WoW World PvP just doesn't exist anymore. :\ Make sense?	
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Why not just make changes that are only active inside warplots, BGs, arenas, so they don't affect PvE? should be easy enough to do
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			Well. I'm hating this drop cause I cant even patch it! So I cant play! So I paid 2 months for a game I cannot play! That's why.	
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Well. I'm hating this drop cause I cant even patch it! So I cant play! So I paid 2 months for a game I cannot play! That's why.
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???? How so??? I know ESO has the same set up. What game is a/an example of the way you would want it?
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Just like PvP'ers don't understand their wishes impact PvE....
Chua think is endless loop/discussion
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Drop 2 broke a lot of bodies and faces.. that's my main problem with it.
 
I feel for the PVP crowd, but I try to stay away from their areas since I am a fragile little flower and they're all weedwhackers.	
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Chua thinks Olivar is idiot who doesnt care that pvp is a stinkpile of spellslingers being the only thing that matters. But is okay. No expect pve chua to understamd or care that other players who play different styles of gameplay like to have fun too, or that he come off like self-righteous zax wannabe.
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This is one of those times when the PvP community's infamous hyperventilating over every little issue is biting us in the collective ass.
 
PvP systems like queueing, match making, and gear actually do need a lot of fixing and streamlining in Wildstar. But the rant is always set to 11 in PvP Land, so it sounds like any given Monday. I expect they'll tackle it in time, but it's something that's going to take a lot of trial and error and community feedback. And by that I mean helpful community feedback, not tantrums about how your class is underpowered.	
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I think there is some core issues that people are either missing or Carbine hasn't communicated to set expectations. Which has lead to some cornerstone issues in with way that Carbine operates. 
 
If you have played in beta and how they handled large development, they have "checked box" a lot of things. What I mean about this, is they  rush or seem to go for mile stones and push content out as quickly as they can. This is why they are have monthly content releases. Now that is needed in the marketplace today because the player community goes through content so quickly. If there is no content, your player base goes dormant and since this is a monthly based sub model... there is a reason why they are releasing content every month.
 
The problem with this is the execution, which is where the pain points are coming from the community. They release the patch and by the time its out, they can't really make changes or significant changes to that patch. That ship has sailed... For them to turn something around takes too long because of the man power in which they have. They are caught in the middle with this and should either invest in more operating expense to beef up the team( hint this is your money maker and if you view it as this.. increase it) or extend their content or development of new content out to a 3 month cycle. This would allow proper testing and feedback, due to the rapid firing that they are trying to keep up with.
When you are submitting hyper change into your player base and it causes a lot of disruption like it is ... this is where the issues come. Look at Drop 3 now, and see how much changes during that time to drop 3. Then see how many changes would or happen. there won't be many because majority of those people are already working on drop 4 by then. They need to beef up the team who is cleaning the backend while the front end makes all mess.
 
 
Also there is a design philosophy, that they say they don't separate pvp and pve skills because they want to balance things all together as one. If that is the case then why have separate pvp and pve teams? Why have separate pve and pvp gear?   There is a disconnect between there other silos and this is one of them.	
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			Because they broke PvP, and by broke I mean like how a Ming Vase breaks when fired out of a railgun into the side armor of an M1 Abrams battle tank.	
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			the main issue was rating and gear progression, they fixed how gear works, and I think it does work, if you don't inlcuding healing. But we can't RBG because our ratings are different, so game is unplayble if you wanted to end game pvp with your guild.The best thing about the patch is my new hat.	
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			That hat, like most hats in the world, is horrible.  Especially on Aurin.  I will say it looks "ok" on you because it combines soft and hard.  Tim Gunn would approve.	
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Well see there is your problem...
You made an Aurin
 
*backs away from thread slowly*	
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It's really simple....
 
PvP nerfs that screw over PvE..
 
In the end many of those nerfs had little to no effect on pvp.. but you could sure feel it in pve.  As an example..
 
SpellSlinger changes: 
 
PvP Issue:  the 3x assassinate, Charge shot combo instant killing players in one CC.
 
Carbine Solution:  Reduce Quick Draw from 5 to 3 target (the only class in the game that its basic attack only effects 3 target) 
                             Reduced Chargeshot width by a half meter (no effect on pvp do to assassinate being needle thin to hit, has no effect on above combo)
                             Reduced angle of telegraghs for Arcane missile, Rapid Fire.  ( has no effect on pvp)
 
All of Carbines changes had no effect on the pvp issue with Spellslingers but all of there "pvp nerfs" had effects on pve.  On top of that due to the pvp stat's Spellslingers were getting 20k charge shot crits crit making the 3x assassinate even better due to bugs.
 
Or the Medic the least capable dps class in the game... got dps nerfs do to pvp.
Even the Qualty of life change for the Esper turned in to a 4 to 5% dps loss...  When Espers, Spellslingers, and medics are in the bottem pool of dps in pve.. they all got nerfs.  On top of that do to light armor they also have the highest risks in vet pve content.  Yet they get more nerfs to there dps.   It shows a huge disconnect between whats needed and what the devs are doing.  It also didn't help that many of the bugs that showed up were reported on the PTR.	
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Because world pvp is in the game, and i imagine will play a major part in the future. 
 
I can see world pvp being looked at and a system put in place, like some sort of faction war that breaks into faction controlled objectives and buffs to each faction depending on whats controlled. 
 
It would be very complicated to split the two and then merge them back in the future. 
 
The game is based on a war between two factions after all!
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PvP was dead the second they designed PvP offense & defense rating.
Got nothing to complain on something that was already broken when released.	
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the main issue was rating and gear progression, they fixed how gear works, and I think it does work, if you don't inlcuding healing. But we can't RBG because our ratings are different, so game is unplayble if you wanted to end game pvp with your guild.
 
The best thing about the patch is my new hat.
 
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This is one of those times when the PvP community's infamous hyperventilating over every little issue is biting us in the collective ass.
 
PvP systems like queueing, match making, and gear actually do need a lot of fixing and streamlining in Wildstar. But the rant is always set to 11 in PvP Land, so it sounds like any given Monday. I expect they'll tackle it in time, but it's something that's going to take a lot of trial and error and community feedback. And by that I mean helpful community feedback, not tantrums about how your class is underpowered.
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except so far it seems that every time we've bothered with feedback, theyve ignored it and ran off with their own ass-backwards ideas anyhow. So I dont have much faith that theyll listen to feedback. And theres really no incentive for us to test shit.
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It's really simple....
 
PvP nerfs that screw over PvE..
 
In the end many of those nerfs had little to no effect on pvp.. but you could sure feel it in pve.  As an example..
 
SpellSlinger changes: 
 
PvP Issue:  the 3x assassinate, Charge shot combo instant killing players in one CC.
 
Carbine Solution:  Reduce Quick Draw from 5 to 3 target (the only class in the game that its basic attack only effects 3 target) 
                             Reduced Chargeshot width by a half meter (no effect on pvp do to assassinate being needle thin to hit, has no effect on above combo)
                             Reduced angle of telegraghs for Arcane missile, Rapid Fire.  ( has no effect on pvp)
 
All of Carbines changes had no effect on the pvp issue with Spellslingers but all of there "pvp nerfs" had effects on pve.  On top of that due to the pvp stat's Spellslingers were getting 20k charge shot crits crit making the 3x assassinate even better due to bugs.
 
Or the Medic the least capable dps class in the game... got dps nerfs do to pvp.
Even the Qualty of life change for the Esper turned in to a 4 to 5% dps loss...  When Espers, Spellslingers, and medics are in the bottem pool of dps in pve.. they all got nerfs.  On top of that do to light armor they also have the highest risks in vet pve content.  Yet they get more nerfs to there dps.   It shows a huge disconnect between whats needed and what the devs are doing.  It also didn't help that many of the bugs that showed up were reported on the PTR.
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Boomboxes?
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Reasons to love Drop 2.
 
Tier 2 Trees now in Tier 2 and Tier 3 Thickets.
Crafting Station House Plot now has a Vendorbot.
Spellslingers can now cast Spell Surge while casting.
Espers are now mobile.
 
As I only play Spellslingers, Espers and Engineers, and have tons of Housing plots, Drop 2 gets a massive thumbs up from me.	
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they also nerfed healing in pvp so much that now medics might as well not exist in pvp .They cant heal. they certainly cant dps.
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Olivar...question to you who dislikes/hates pvpers but loves pve...
 
What you you do if they nerfed dungeon/raid healing by 53%, buffed mob/boss dps by 10-15%, cut tank/player mitigation by 50+%. forced you to re-rune all your gear (losing 5-10 plat worth in the process), buffed the hell out of two classes that were not really having any issues and were already super strong (SS/Stalker), and then made it so that there is massive gear gaps in power where a large portion of players need not even consider entering a dungeon unless they are full top tier epics?
 
Oh and they pretty much went and made healing obsolete in BGs completely....yay?
 
THAT is what they did to PvP in drop 2.
 
Would that not upset you, just a little bit?	
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Olivar...question to you who dislikes pvpers but loves pve...
 
What you you do if they nerfed dungeon/raid healing by 53%, buffed mob/boss dps by 10-15%, forced you to re-rune all your gear (losing 10-20 plat worth), and then made it so that there is massive gear gaps in power where a large portion of players need not even consider entering a dungeon unless they are full top tier epics?
 
THAT is what they did to PvP in drop 2.
 
Would that not upset you, just a little bit?
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The sad part is that they actually are responding to criticism making these changes.  Just not from the "PVP" community, but the former PVP community.
 
This is why people absolutely need to come on social media and defend the things they like about the game.  It seems fine to let the devs just listen to forum complaints, but you have to realize that they ARE listening, and if you aren't spending time in equal measure telling them what's fine, it doesn't take too many people to make them think otherwise.
 
Everyone here remembers the fury with which PVP was decried as being made completely broken by how invincible big groups were in heals, particularly in medic heals.  They called it Zergstar.  I told people it was a matter of strategy, that you could break well organized PVP groups with well organized PVP.  I don't even PVP.  Nobody listened.
 
And the heals got nerfed, damage got buffed.  Carbine responded to what they heard last month.  In fact, almost all these changes are responding to issues raised last month in these forums.
 
I mean, you don't have to be a white knight, but not all the people on the forums iterating what they like about the game over and over and shouting down some of the more strident criticism are just defending Carbine.  They all are circling the wagons to defend their sacred cows, because they know that it they don't that the things they love about this game are all fair game to be targeted in a fix.
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			The question that needs to be asked is why isn't quad charge shots not fixed along with a lot of other bugs/exploits...	
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except not everypone on the forums hated healers. Only the vocal screamy people who were terrible at pvp had any issues with healers. You cant defeat a mob in the scream really loud race, and the devs went for the simplest, most brutal ways to "fix" issues.
 
which never works.
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			It's no longer possible for Medics to do the 1200-1500 PvP climb as a healer, so, you know, there's that.	
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except not everypone on the forums hated healers. Only the vocal screamy people who were terrible at pvp had any issues with healers. You cant defeat a mob in the scream really loud race, and the devs went for the simplest, most brutal ways to "fix" issues.
 
which never works.
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Olivar...question to you who dislikes/hates pvpers but loves pve...
 
What you you do if they nerfed dungeon/raid healing by 53%, buffed mob/boss dps by 10-15%, cut tank/player mitigation by 50+%. forced you to re-rune all your gear (losing 5-10 plat worth in the process), buffed the hell out of two classes that were not really having any issues and were already super strong (SS/Stalker), and then made it so that there is massive gear gaps in power where a large portion of players need not even consider entering a dungeon unless they are full top tier epics?
 
Oh and they pretty much went and made healing obsolete in BGs completely....yay?
 
THAT is what they did to PvP in drop 2.
 
Would that not upset you, just a little bit?
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			Why are people complaining? I don't know, man. I can only speak for myself.I've done rated arenas in wow, rated bgs, vanilla pvp, daoc, eq pvp, rift, warhammer, etc, etc, etc. Basically, I pvp a lot and I will not heal in a bg anymore. I just won't do it. It was an overkill nerf, and most healers won't be fine in bgs. At the very least a good healer should always be able to outheal a single dps's damage, and because it's wildstar with telegraphs, a good healer should be able to output an equal amount of healing as AT LEAST one dps. And they can't. You could kill a healer just fine before (did on my engie all the time, learn to stun and wound), but I guess they wanted healers to basically be minor healing support (while sacrificing a dps spot). Maybe they're pushing more people into hybrid specs, idk.The new BG is underwhelming compared to how much hype they put forth (I realize a business needs to be excited about their own content). But it's not gonan save pvp, or help anything. And it isn't that pvp is doomed, but wildstar is slowly becoming what it wants to be, a niche mmo with a fraction of subs that other mmos have. And that's fine, if that's what Carbine wants and that's what the community wants, so be it. But, as you see the dwindling population and the pvp changes, do you ever wonder, "Maybe i shouldn't be such an elitist prick. I sure would like other people to play with".Haven't fixed the plethora of bugs in the game, but hey at least now my mount stays on the one I left it at, herpaderp! Nevermind my engie bots, my walls ****ing shrinking, my abilities, etc, etc, etc. Nevermind the fact that they still haven't optimized for nvidia cards, etc, etc.This patch introduced new bugs, and honestly if this dev team wasn't made up of old devs from other games, I would genuinely think they were amateurs at their job. No, I can't do better, but I do my chosen profession well.People are mad because a large portion of their game is broken, the population is dwindling, carbine has their head up their ass, and they actually like the game.	
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Medic healers were not so hard hit by the changes. Pre-patch they could stand in the middle of a zerg and heal it all off easy.
 
But as an esper healer, all it takes is a bit of focus and or a well placed CC: dead esper.
 
I for one did not feel like I was in god mode pre-patch, quite the contrary.
 
W/e, medics can produce considerably more heals to other healers and get to enjoy more mitigation with that medium armor I envy immensely.
 
You should edit that comment "A good healer" line to "A good medic" instead imo.	
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Medic healers were not so hard hit by the changes. Pre-patch they could stand in the middle of a zerg and heal it all off easy.
 
But as an esper healer, all it takes is a bit of focus and or a well placed CC: dead esper.
 
I for one did not feel like I was in god mode pre-patch, quite the contrary.
 
W/e, medics can produce considerably more heals to other healers and get to enjoy more mitigation with that medium armor I envy immensely.
 
You should edit that comment "A good healer" line to "A good medic" instead imo.
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Why are people complaining? I don't know, man. I can only speak for myself.
 
I've done rated arenas in wow, rated bgs, vanilla pvp, daoc, eq pvp, rift, warhammer, etc, etc, etc. Basically, I pvp a lot and I will not heal in a bg anymore. I just won't do it. It was an overkill nerf, and most healers won't be fine in bgs. At the very least a good healer should always be able to outheal a single dps's damage, and because it's wildstar with telegraphs, a good healer should be able to output an equal amount of healing as AT LEAST one dps. And they can't. You could kill a healer just fine before (did on my engie all the time, learn to stun and wound), but I guess they wanted healers to basically be minor healing support (while sacrificing a dps spot). Maybe they're pushing more people into hybrid specs, idk.
 
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Medic healers were not so hard hit by the changes. Pre-patch they could stand in the middle of a zerg and heal it all off easy.
 
But as an esper healer, all it takes is a bit of focus and or a well placed CC: dead esper.
 
I for one did not feel like I was in god mode pre-patch, quite the contrary.
 
W/e, medics can produce considerably more heals to other healers and get to enjoy more mitigation with that medium armor I envy immensely.
 
You should edit that comment "A good healer" line to "A good medic" instead imo.
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Back in City of Heroes, I could copy any of my characters to the test server at their current level and enhancements. That way, there was always a batch of maxed out 50s to test out the new issue.
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