110184-time-to-reduce-box-price

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Dear Carbine & NCSoft
 
WS is almost 3 months old. Most ppl left already and many are still leaving every day. Newcomers are way fewer than those who are leaving and game has many problems to solve in order to keep the remaining player base. Don't you think its time to reduce the box price to help the influx of new players? This will help both you and us the remaining players.
 
Thank you.	
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			35 Euros is a more then enough fair price.	
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I honestly doubt it would do much without a proper (and hideously expensive) marketing campaign.
They need to stabilize their playerbase first to make sure the word of mouth spreads something else than titanic stories imo.
A random price drop wouldn't do them much favor atm I think.	
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Dear Carbine & NCSoft
 
WS is almost 3 months old. Most ppl left already and many are still leaving every day. Newcomers are way fewer than those who are leaving and game has many problems to solve in order to keep the remaining player base. Don't you think its time to reduce the box price to help the influx of new players? This will help both you and us the remaining players.
 
Thank you.
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			The box price is definitely fair.  What's not fair is how they try to squeeze players after they pay the box and sub fees.  Carbine is finding the addicts aren't willing to pay.  Carbine has an addictive game on it's hands but it isn't heroin.	
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Yeah I don't see box sales as a major factor.
But as I don't have any data, it's as much of an opinion as the OP.
Just saying I doubt those few initial dollars (especially considering free trials available) are what's scaring people off.	
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Ummm yeah, that's not really gonna help... The need to smooth out bug streamline some of the in game systems fix broken content... THEN have a come back for a week free thing to previous sub holders, then they need to offer a 1 week free to anyone that wants to sign up event so people on the fence can try the game too.
 
That would help population, reducing box price not so much.	
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No point in lowering the box price until the game is stable.
 
They have a number of sweeping changes / fixes to key systems and you don't want to lower your box price, get a new influx of players only for them to experience previous issues you know you are working on =)
 
In another month or two once things are settled, then maybe I could see it, but not before then.	
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			wildstar promotion is  heavily word of mouth. sadly that is a double edged sword every time they screw up they get more and more negative  comments than good. Case in point  think of the last time anyone  posted a Glowing review  or opinion of the game.	
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Would love to know where you get your "statistics" from.
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I tell anyone I meet or know that this title is defiantly worth the box price but isn't worth its fee in its current state. Population is a big problem but only a symptom really that endgame is a time trial also not much for the casual and there's still quite a bit of bugs or limitations in housing (if you want Minecraft players to get hooked lift the 300decor limit). I brought one person into the game who loves it like I, the rest say it's 2014 and they don't have time for a virtual part-time job.
 
A question I get A LOT "Is there 10 or 15 man raiding?". Thing I noticed is the people I speak to don't want vanilla WoW or BC.. they want WotLK, the few that played Cata or MoP were left with a bad taste in their mouth over dailys and easy loot pinata queue raids. WoW's new Proving Ground system has some awesome skill gate potential for attuning which I'd like to see in some form here. 20-40 mans don't need cut, they still serve as goal setters and give the game a crop of players to /drool over but 10 mans I think are a must because they're a taste of great things to come, a way to get your toes wet.
 
EDIT: "isn't worth its fee in its current state." To add to this statement I share details about the CREDD system and how I capitalized on it, but as time passes the methods to obtain is getting further reaching, less people across the board means less Elite FABkits and at extremely far reaching prices plus less circle activity equals less harvest mail to loosen the gold gap to purchase a CREDD makes it very hard for the casual to even afford it to continue playing on CREDD. No one wants to sink their teeth into leveling 6 characters to 40 for the alternative to Elite kits aswell.
That aside sure there's other methods to obtain CREDD but the same issue bleeds here aswell, less people equals less CREDD in circuit, prices went up beyond a reasonable amount for a new player to earn in a month. Cross-server CREDD markets are something that'll be highly worth testing ASAP to keep these players afloat.	
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Do you want statistics?
 
All servers are always low at any time of the day. From my first Guild on Zhur (60+ ppl) all except me and a few others quit. I moved to Hazzak while it was still high/med and joined a large Guild ~200 ppl and a very active Circle ~100 ppl ( and a few other minor circles). Now even Hazzak, the most populated server in EU, is always low. My guild has maximum 10 ppl online and my circle 10-15 max. Out of ~20 real id friends of mine, only 2 have left logging every day. The rest either quit or have more than 3+ weeks to enter the game.
 
So who needs statistics? I love this game and i log in every day. I m writing in many gaming forums since a long time ago to support and promote it. I m every day in these forums asking for solutions, future plans and fixes. It would be very easy for me to just leave and join my 90% of friends / guild m8's who are already preparing for WoD, but i will not. I prefer to stay here and fight for WS, but results wont come if we are hiding our heads in the sand. Most ppl left and many are leaving every day. THAT'S A FACT. Just face it and don't ask for pointless statistics.
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Do you want statistics?
 
All servers are always low at any time of the day. From my first Guild on Zhur (60+ ppl) all except me and a few others quit. I moved to Hazzak while it was still high/med and joined a large Guild ~200 ppl and a very active Circle ~100 ppl ( and a few other minor circles). Now even Hazzak, the most populated server in EU, is always low. My guild has maximum 10 ppl online and my circle 10-15 max. Out of ~20 real id friends of mine, only 2 have left logging every day. The rest either quit or have more than 3+ weeks to enter the game.
 
So who needs statistics? I love this game and i log in every day. I m writing in many gaming forums since a long time ago to support and promote it. I m every day in these forums asking for solutions, future plans and fixes. It would be very easy for me to just leave and join my 90% of friends / guild m8's who are already preparing for WoD, but i will not. I prefer to stay here and fight for WS, but results wont come if we are hiding our heads in the sand. Most ppl left and many are leaving every day. THAT'S A FACT. Just face it and don't ask for pointless statistics.
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I'm not sure what people stopping their subs has to do with the box price.  They already paid for it.  If they come back, they don't have to pay for it again.  Carbine's first order of business should be addressing player concerns.
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I m not saying ppl are stopping their subs because of this. I say that lowering the box price would attract more ppl into the game. FFX did that and already experiencing a huge raise in sales for many months in the row. Not that this is the main reason, but it helps a lot.
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I m not saying ppl are stopping their subs because of this. I say that lowering the box price would attract more ppl into the game. FFX did that and already experiencing a huge raise in sales for many months in the row. Not that this is the main reason, but it helps a lot.
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Seems to me the more relevant issue isn't the initial cost, it's that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by implementing a CREDD like it's a F2P "time vs. cash" tradeoff at the same time that they're asking people to buy subs. F2P makes the game deliberately tedious and unrewarding as a way of forcing you to either play it nonstop or spend some money buying stuff off of the people who do that.
 
Subscription-based games don't work that way at all. You pay up-front just to get in the door, and in return the game you get is supposed to be fun. You shouldn't need to play non-stop OR spend additional money in order to make progress. You already bought in when you paid for the sub.
 
Instead of the fun of a sub while allowing the flexibility of F2P, their current system gives F2P tedium at the price of a sub. No wonder everyone except the hardcore 24/7 crowd are leaving in droves. Some kind of in-game boost to drop rates for people paying for subs would work wonders for customer retention and also make CREDD purchases what they were marketed as in the first place--an extra boost beyond the sub, rather than the money you still have to spend for the endgame, after you've already paid your sub.
 
Edit: changed "time vs effort", which isn't the F2P tradeoff, to "time vs cash", which is.	
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Sounds like it's more of an EU problem more so than a NA Problem (Not that NA doesn't have it's share of low pops but we have more mediums than you guys do), most of my account friends log in daily I have 3 out of 20 that haven't been on in over a month and I know them RL and I know the reasons why, and it's not game related. 
 
My server Evindra does pretty okay with pop our Dommy side needs more love but it's still not bad my Guild also has happy active talking people on at almost all hours. So our experiences are completely different. (I am of course on NA not EU) that said, my Idea would do far more good than yours would, but they need to polish those fixes first. In the mean time you can either wait it out or go do something else and come back when things are fixed. making thread after thread after thread, is going to accomplish nothing, Every possible fix to the games pop is going to require time, whether it's drawing players back, merging servers etc.
 
So just chill a bit, they are aware of what's going on and I'm sure they are working on Plans to try to fix this with merges as a last resort.
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			No , its time for you to buy me cred  :angry:  :angry:	
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You're right you aren't saying that. You are telling Carbine & NCSoft how to run their game / business with  0 understanding of the REAL state of their product.
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Seems to me the more relevant issue isn't the initial cost, it's that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by implementing a CREDD like it's a F2P "time vs. cash" tradeoff at the same time that they're asking people to buy subs. F2P makes the game deliberately tedious and unrewarding as a way of forcing you to either play it nonstop or spend some money buying stuff off of the people who do that.
 
Subscription-based games don't work that way at all. You pay up-front just to get in the door, and in return the game you get is supposed to be fun. You shouldn't need to play non-stop OR spend additional money in order to make progress. You already bought in when you paid for the sub.
 
Instead of the fun of a sub while allowing the flexibility of F2P, their current system gives F2P tedium at the price of a sub. No wonder everyone except the hardcore 24/7 crowd are leaving in droves. Some kind of in-game boost to drop rates for people paying for subs would work wonders for customer retention and also make CREDD purchases what they were marketed as in the first place--an extra boost beyond the sub, rather than the money you still have to spend for the endgame, after you've already paid your sub.
 
Edit: changed "time vs effort", which isn't the F2P tradeoff, to "time vs cash", which is.
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			OP, since you seem to know the stats... what is the actual number for {Medium-1}? That is the uppermost end of "Low", right before breaking the Medium threshold.	
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RNG grind taken into account (because it is what it is), I don't think the game was designed to have "F2P tedium", or they'd have given us exactly what you're asking for, a way for a sub to make them more money.  However, at present, they make a LOT more money from CREDD, not just because it costs more, but because even if someone doesn't buy it and use it from the CX, they've still made their money.
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However, at present, they make a LOT more money from CREDD, not just because it costs more, but because even if someone doesn't buy it and use it from the CX, they've still made their money.
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OP, since you seem to know the stats... what is the actual number for {Medium-1}? That is the uppermost end of "Low", right before breaking the Medium threshold.
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It also seems more like misguided design than greed to me.
Before you refute me with cynicism, consider the following:
 
On many low pop servers, there literally aren't enough CX materials and gear available that you can "pay2win" your way to with CREDD, nor probably even enough people to provide you with the necessary platinum.
It's simply not a sustainable model to "rip people off". If they truly wanted to do that, good gear, runes, etc. would all come from platinum vendors without any rep or achievement requirements. You could just sell the CREDD and stock up on everything you need.
 
Since that couldn't be further from the truth, I will continue to disagree with "this game was designed to sell you more CREDD".
 
The only potentially "forced tedium" to make people buy CREDD is vanity items (which I don't consider a valid argument because... you don't need them) and buying dungeon/PvP boosts (ditto for obvious reasons).
 
Does the game have more than a overblown goldsinks? Yeah, sure. I'll give you that. But it still seems to be they're put their to battle inflation, not rip customers off.
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I see this a lot on the forums and it's just not true. Someone has to buy it for them to make money off it. They don't get $20 when someone buys it and then another $20 when that someone else gets it off the CX.
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I see this a lot on the forums and it's just not true. Someone has to buy it for them to make money off it. They don't get $20 when someone buys it and then another $20 when that someone else gets it off the CX.
 
As for CREDD costing more than a sub, it should. A subscription to something says "I will give you money on a monthly basis. The default is that I will pay it every month, and I have to actively change that." Reliability in a customer is a valuable thing for running a business. CREDD purchases are a one-time deal with no reliability inherent to them at all.
 
But if we accept your premise that they're more driven by CREDD than they are by subs, then I would argue to you actually do agree with me that the game is using a F2P business model, whether you would characterize it that way or not. You pay money or time to accrue in-game resources--that's the whole point of most F2P business models.
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Nothing wrong with his statement. "Buy it" was simply misinterpreted.
 
"... because even if someone doesn't buy it [from the exchange] and use it from the CX, they've still made their money [from those who bought it from the website]."
 
In another words, if someone buys 10 Credd with cash, but did not sell it in the exchange, Carbine still made $200.
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			I don't think the box price is much of a problem, as weird as it sounds. The issue at hand is keeping people in, which requires fixes and content, which, as we already know, is quite a ways out now...	
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Nothing wrong with his statement. "Buy it" was simply misinterpreted.
 
"... because even if someone doesn't buy it [from the exchange] and use it from the CX, they've still made their money [from those who bought it from the website]."
 
In another words, if someone buys 10 Credd with cash, but did not sell it in the exchange, Carbine still made $200.
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My premise isn't that they're driven by CREDD; they don't see a difference.  The people who are paying them to buy CREDD are also buying their subs, more than likely.  Nobody is buying CREDD and applying it to their own account, they sell it for plat.  But Carbine doesn't treat anyone differently because of that.  If CREDD buyers leave the game, they no longer buy the CREDD people are selling and the currency becomes worthless.
 
I just don't see a difference between the two, or a reason to treat us sub payers as if we deserve better by our payment method.  We're all paid in from someone at some time.
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The distinction I was trying to make wasn't between CREDD buyers and subs--as you noted, CREDD buyers ARE subscribers. The distinction is between a game where buying into it actually gets you a fun game (most sub-based games) and one that is intentionally made tedious to inspire you to spend (F2P games).
 
The model these guys have is that this game is intentionally made tedious to inspire you to spend when you've ALREADY spent. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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The model these guys have is that this game is intentionally made tedious to inspire you to spend when you've ALREADY spent. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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			I think free trials and free weekends would do more to bring people back and restore a good population - after they fix the things that made them leave.	
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To be fair can you name a single MMO where this isn't the case?
 
All MMO's have repetitive time sinks in some form or another.
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I think free trials and free weekends would do more to bring people back and restore a good population - after they fix the things that made them leave.
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			 Every mmo is differant and every game has to do their own juggling act to appease the masses once they find their chi hopefully the cards will fall into place.	
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Actually, I'd argue the opposite, they just didn't have either.  F2P games force you to spend money to get gear, but a lot of people don't get that much plat from a CREDD.  Even now, I think buying a CREDD takes a few solid hours of farming and selling in one day, and it pays for a month.  So you can't really get plat to buy into dungeons with CREDD, its still undervalued.  However, Carbine used a Diablo-style stat system for gear with a WoW-style loot system.  It means you've got quite a few times where you don't get anything good.  So they don't have the long, drawn out, tiered gear grind of a sub game to keep people chasing the will o' the wisp, but they also don't have the pay-cash-or-grind-for-a-year mentality F2P games have that make them a lot of extra money.
 
Sounds like they'll be altering the gearing to be more in line with other sub games, so that's good news.
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 You can get tons of plat with CREDD. 
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			I've seen games very effectively drag this out for at least a couple of years with far fewer players than this, but either way I would agree that what's going on here isn't a sustainable business model.	
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But a lot of repetitive time sinks are less noticeable when you're making slow, constant progress as opposed to rolling the dice twice on every drop to get the gear you want with the stats you want.  It's a subtle difference on player mentality; a lot of people would rather grind 50 tokens at a 50% drop rate than have a 1% drop rate on the thing they need itself.
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I agree Vic, but at the same time, so what? We know what we are getting in MMO's; run content over and over to get gear / progression to conquer more difficult content. 
 
I am not sold on most of the gear complaints. even the worst stats on a piece are more than good enough for some one; and it isn't so much about stats folks wan't versus stats Min/Maxers claim to need. The hard truth and probably why so many are upset with the gear system; is that skill and gameplay is a lot more important in this game than other MMO's. You can't just target a dungeon boss and spam magic missile.. you have to PLAY the boss; dodge teles, keep telegraph uptime, and respond quickly to shifts in mechanics. Doing that well makes much more difference than a maxed epic piece versus a decent epic piece.
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Ah, here we go. Yes, the real reason people are leaving is that they just suck too much to be here. Ayep.
 
*watches as the train goes flying off the rails*
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I've seen games very effectively drag this out for at least a couple of years with far fewer players than this
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Sure you have, but remember: They probably weren't using an analogy to the CREDD system (it's comparatively rare, as far as I know).
This makes all the difference.
 
If only 200 people play Farmville but spend $1000 a month on it, it's probably still profitable. These whales are also still happy, because they can directly pay their way to whatever they want in the game. There is no upper limit to the cash they can dump and to the benefits they can reap from this cash dumping.
 
If only 200 people who buy CREDD and maybe 500 who farm platinum are left, no one can afford the CREDD. The system collapses and the whales will leave. Not because they don't want to spend $, but because they can't spend it.
 
This is the difference between a system that conjures premium currency out of thin air and hard $ (like whatever Farmville style games use) and a system where you only get as much benefit from your $ as other players can provide with the sweat of their brow.
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OP, since you seem to know the stats... what is the actual number for {Medium-1}? That is the uppermost end of "Low", right before breaking the Medium threshold.
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Not following this argument at all. The CREDD is sold on an exchange, so the market sets the price point for it. The whales can afford the CREDD in real money, and the F2Pers can afford the CREDD easily--if anything, they can get it too cheaply because according to the people who are more "hardcore" than I will ever be, they only need to farm for a day or two to make the plat to obtain their free month. The rest of their time can be spent doing whatever they want.
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Reading a difficult thing for you? Point on the dollie where I said anything about people leaving because they suck... or where I said anything about people sucking, or leaving, at all..
 
 
 
Do you see it? Because anyone who reads certainly can't. I pointed out that we aren't ignorant to the MMO genre, and what it entails. I also noted most of the crying about gear comes from folks paying heed to the min/maxing crowd, rather than actual gameplay and mechanics. 
 
I never said anything about 'people sucking' or being 'not good enough'.
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Reading is hard. I do my best, though.
 
Still, you're right. All you said was that the thing people were really upset about with regards to gear was that this game is about _skill_ and not gear.
 
One would have to add to that statement that the tedium and inaccessibility related to gear is a reason people give for leaving the game--which they do--and also accept your statement as correct--which I presumed that you do, although I may be wrong--before reaching the inevitable conclusion that the reason people leave the game isn't REALLY a gear problem, it's because they actually lack the skill to make any progress, and then mistakenly blame it on the gear.
 
My apologies for drawing a conclusion that you didn't say from the starting point that you did say.
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Whales cannot spend more $ because farmers don't need more CREDD. 
 
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But the whales CAN spend more--they can buy CREDD even if the people they'd sell it to already have all that they need.
 
And then what happens? The price of CREDD falls because the supply goes up. The ability to play for free comes within reach of people who don't farm as effectively, who then farm and buy CREDD.
 
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It happens, no worries.
 
As for the tedium, I agree with your point, but I really am surprised that it is the case. I wonder what people actually expected from an MMO? To not be like every other MMO?
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I expect some tedium from a MMO, sure. I've played lots of them, and I know that's the deal. That's why I generally don't stampede to 50--doing so races me right past most of what the game offers.
 
But the fact that all MMOs have some amount of grind and repetition to them is not the same thing as saying every MMO requires as much grind and repetition as this one does in order to make a comparable level of incremental progress. And I suspect that you were aware of this when you made the argument in the first place.
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I thought they said that the high end of the server capacities, was something like... 16K players. Now, low could be 5K for all we know, but that doesn't mean 5k people are actually playing. 
 
I love this game to bits, and I am far from being a "white night" and all that, but really... have to stop kidding ourselves; people *are* leaving in droves, and this game, unfortunately, has very little staying power. 
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But...but...where are your stats? May we have a link? Have you seen any official announcement about this? Any official numbers? Anything at all?
 
I think we don't want to stop kidding ourselves. Thats the only explanation i have about some ppl in these forums :)
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Except that's demonstrably not what happens on low pop servers.
CREDD goes one way: Up.
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Well, yeah, the system does collapse if too many people find the content unacceptably tedious and unrewarding to even be willing to play it for free. It is unquestionably possible to set those bars too stringently to keep the game alive.
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I understand your sentiment, but respectfully disagree. Most MMO's I've played require more grind for equally incrimental progress (FFXI, EQ,UO,RO, etc). That said there are some I can think of that have less (e.g SWTOR). 
 
So I respect your opinion; but also I find the opposite with my experience. 
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Then I suppose that your experience and mine are based on different games--and given the ones you listed, different years of operation as a competitive MMO.
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Dear Carbine & NCSoft
 
WS is almost 3 months old. Most ppl left already and many are still leaving every day. Newcomers are way fewer than those who are leaving and game has many problems to solve in order to keep the remaining player base. Don't you think its time to reduce the box price to help the influx of new players? This will help both you and us the remaining players.
 
Thank you.
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But...but...where are your stats? May we have a link? Have you seen any official announcement about this? Any official numbers? Anything at all?
 
I think we don't want to stop kidding ourselves. Thats the only explanation i have about some ppl in these forums :)
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Nah, suckers are born every minute. NCSoft still hasn't been paid yet. Server xfers are still $20 lol.. they're going to keep milking it. As they should! I would do the same if my empire was crumbling.
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			I'm still waiting on a collector's edition set for artwork and etc...if they ever come up with one which I hope they do.	
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I agree Vic, but at the same time, so what? We know what we are getting in MMO's; run content over and over to get gear / progression to conquer more difficult content. 
 
I am not sold on most of the gear complaints. even the worst stats on a piece are more than good enough for some one; and it isn't so much about stats folks wan't versus stats Min/Maxers claim to need. The hard truth and probably why so many are upset with the gear system; is that skill and gameplay is a lot more important in this game than other MMO's. You can't just target a dungeon boss and spam magic missile.. you have to PLAY the boss; dodge teles, keep telegraph uptime, and respond quickly to shifts in mechanics. Doing that well makes much more difference than a maxed epic piece versus a decent epic piece.
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