Alt talk creationism

Re: Darwin on propositions which can't be disputed
	
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:06:15 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
Googling with "propositions disputed" brings this thread at nr.2 out
of 507 000 hits.
The only other thread I got dealing with his term is:
http://able2know.org/topic/50511-25
".... Nevertheless, this difficulty, though appearing to our
imagination insuperably great, cannot be considered real if we admit
the following propositions, namely, that all parts of the organisation
and instincts offer, at least, individual differencesthat there is a
struggle for existence leading to the preservation of profitable
deviations of structure or instinctand, lastly, that gradations in
the state of perfection of each organ may have existed, each good of
its kind. The truth of these propositions cannot, I think, be
disputed...."
Post rosborne979 says:
"...I'm not sure I like Darwin's writing style; a bit pokey. But he
was right, the truth of those propositions cannot be disputed. And
that alone is an exceedingly powerful argument....."
Rosborne979 is incorrect. Darwin formulated a tautology as I
explained on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric)
article a tautology is formulating a proposition in such a manner that
it cannot be disputed - it is a logical fallacy.
	
		
		
	On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:54:39 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
A tautology is formulating a proposition in such a manner that the
truth of the proposition cannot be disputed. "the truth of the
proposition cannot be disputed" is straight of Darwin's book:
".....Origins of Species by means ....... of the preservation of
favored races...". Darwin's very term is what the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) article defines as a
logical fallacy: Tautology.
Notice the tautology in the very title of Darwin's book " ....
preservation of favored races....." The truth of the proposition that
certain races were preserved can therefore not be disputed because
they were "favored". What one supposed to do is formulate your
propositions so that they can be disputed such as Newton's inverse
square law. One can test it experimentally, but how could one disprove
the following: "....races that were preserved were favored...." It
provides us with no way to falsify the statement. The failure to
understand this is why we had two world wars and why Dembski, Ham,
Hovind and YEC Paul Nelson with his "functional advantage" tautology
on the Illustria media video are today mentally ill. Because this is
really the only issue we should be hammering on. Nothing else will
make sense before you rid your mind of tautological thinking. We all
want to believe that what we believe is the truth, but formulating for
your view by propositions which cannot be disputed is not the way to
do it.
And the same logic for religions. The only religion or person Jesus
Christ that went out of his way to formulate a falsification test -
Glossolalia has 70 peer reviewed articles dedicated to disproving that
Jesus was the Son of God. They have thus falsified Jesus claim to be
God because they well reasondly tested Christians proving that they
were speaking gibberis, but as Popper said "..... you need to find
just one black swan...." You need to find just one Christian who can
speak in tongues ...... just one....... Today there probably are only
ten, most of these ten don't even realize that only a few can speak in
tongues.
	
		
		
	On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:47:27 -0600, Free Lunch <...@nofreelunch.us
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:06:15 -0800 (PST), backspace
<...@gmail.com
As we all know, you never explained it. You asserted it and failed
miserably in your attempt to support your erroneous assertion. 	
		
		
	On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:16:01 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
=== cannot be disputed ===
http://www.bartleby.com/11/4011.html
IF under changing conditions of life organic beings present individual
differences in almost every part of their structure, and this CANNOT
BE DISPUTED; if there be, owing to their geometrical rate of increase,
a severe struggle for life at some age, season, or year, and this
certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the infinite
complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to
their conditions of life, causing an infinite diversity in structure,
constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, it would be a
most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred useful to
each being’s own welfare, in the same manner as so many variations
have occurred useful to man. But if variations useful to any organic
being ever do occur, ASSUREDLY individuals thus characterised will
have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and
from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce
offspring similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or
the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads
to the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and
inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what
must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and
simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple
conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Organic beings have differences in their structure, and this cannot
be disputed; if there be struggle for life at some age, season, or
year, and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the
infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each
other and to their conditions of life, causing an infinite diversity
in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, it
would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever occurred
useful to each being’s own welfare, in the same manner as so many
variations have occurred useful to man.
But if variations useful to any organic being ever do occur,
assuredly individuals thus characterised will have the best
chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the
strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to produce offspring
similarly characterised. This principle of preservation, or the
survival of the fittest, I have called Natural Selection. It leads to
the improvement of each creature in relation to its organic and
inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most cases, to what
must be regarded as an advance in organisation. Nevertheless, low and
simple forms will long endure if well fitted for their simple
conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variations had ever
occurred useful to each being’s own welfare.
Variations useful to a being do occur, assuredly individuals
thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the
struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these
will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle
of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural
Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to
its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in
most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation.
Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for
their simple conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.
Variations useful to a being do occur, assuredly individuals
thus characterised will have the best chance of being preserved in the
struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance, these
will tend to produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle
of preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural
Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to
its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in
most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation.
Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for
their simple conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.
Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals
will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life.
And from the strong principle of inheritance, these will tend to
produce offspring similarly characterised. This principle of
preservation, or the survival of the fittest, I have called Natural
Selection. It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to
its organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in
most cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation.
Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for
their simple conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.
Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals
will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life.
This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection.
It leads to the improvement of each creature in relation to its
organic and inorganic conditions of life, and consequently, in most
cases, to what must be regarded as an advance in organisation.
Nevertheless, low and simple forms will long endure if well fitted for
their simple conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred.
Variations useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals
will be preserved in the struggle for life.
This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection.
It leads to the improvement of each creature. But simple forms will
endure if fitted for their simple conditions of life.
	
		
		
	On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:53:23 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
On Jan 10, 2:16 pm, backspace <...@gmail.com
Simplify it even more:
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; if there be struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred. Variations
useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will be
preserved in the struggle for life.
This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection.
It leads to the improvement of each creature. But simple forms will
endure if fitted for their simple conditions of life.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; there is a struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed; then,
it would be odd if no useful variations had ever occurred. Variations
useful to a being assuredly do occur, such animals will be
preserved in the struggle for life.
This principle of preservation ..... I have called Natural Selection.
It leads to the improvement of each creature.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences in their structure, and this cannot be
disputed; there is a struggle for life and this certainly cannot be
disputed and thus the only conclusion which cannot be disputed and
assuredly is so is that useful variations occur and such animals will
be preserved and improve upwards towards their higher destiny. This
principle of directional goal directed preservation ..... I have
called Natural Selection.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences and this cannot be disputed; there is a
struggle for life and this certainly cannot be disputed and thus the
only conclusion which cannot be disputed and assuredly is so is that
useful variations occur and such animals will be preserved and improve
upwards towards their higher destiny on increasing complexity from
lower simpler forms. This principle of directional goal directed
preservation from simple to complex of favored animals I have called
Natural Selection.
==== rephrase ====
Animals have differences and this cannot be disputed; in fact it
certainly cannot be disputed and thus the only conclusion which cannot
be disputed and assuredly is so is that useful variations occur and
such animals will be preserved and improve upwards towards their
higher destiny on increasing complexity from lower simpler forms. This
principle of directional goal directed preservation from simple to
complex of favored animals I have called Natural Selection.
	
		
		
	On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:09:29 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
==== Rephrase ====
The existence of an elephant is the result of the preservation of
precursors from the first living cell millions of years ago.
==== Finally ====
"...The existence of an elephant is the result of the improvement of
precursors from the first living cell millions of years ago by some
mechanism...."
* Which came first Inverted Pendulum control or the chicken and what
has the term "survival advantage" got to do with explaining it?
* How do we solve a problem we can't define?
* What has a survival advantage got to do with the definition of
life? (Note to answer the question you must ask me a question back:
Who said SA because there is no language without a motive and only
individuals can have volition - who are these people).
* How does this mechanism explain Life a concept that isn't defined
within the materialist paradigm?
* Is the mechanism a cause or an effect. Colby, Provine says an
effect. Darwin said a "....power incessantly ready for action....." -
who must we believe.?
* If natural selection is an effect what then is the cause answer in
terms of the definition of Life.
* What is the formally established Theory of Micro Evolution or is
there perhaps no such theory?
* Is Life a spiritual of physical process and what relation would this
have to the concept Darwin, Haloy, Harshman, Chomsky and Wilkins have
with natural selection.
* If we assume that the brain is like a Linux operating system , in
what way did this mechanism create it?
* What is the relation of this mechanism to the definition of Life
itself ?
* What is the concept behind survival advantage and the relation
to this mechanism.
* What is the concept defined by which person of differential
reproductive success and the relation to the mechanism since Darwin
never used the term.
* What is the concept with the word adaptation and this concept's
relation to the mechanism.
* Spencer said Survival of the fittest which Darwin said was a
better expression what is the link between Spencer's concept and
this mechanism.
* How do we know we are not confusing the effect(survival,
reproduction) with the yet to be defined cause which must include Life
itself.
* When people say "Natural Selection" which specific authors in what
time eras are they interpreting with what concept constrained by what
lack of knowledge ?
* Which authors did Darwin interpret with his mechanism of natural
selection - Haloy(1846) - who else.
* William , Matthews, Wallace, Darwin, Huxley, Richard Owen some of
who coined the term for a specific concept they had.
* Is the mechanism spiritual or material.
* How would you derive the mechanisms ability to transform species
from first principles if we can't define what Life is?
* How does one describe the action of this mechanism if it can't be
disassociated from the question what is Life?
* Is this a universal mechanism does it explain everything. If so how
would this relate to the definition of Life?
* What can this mechanism not do in terms of the definition of
Life.
* How does this mechanism explain consciousness, Life and Language
other than talking about survival advantage.
* How does Howard's concept with the term "survival advantage" relate
to the mechanism and the definition of Life.
* Derive the concept of consciousness from first principles in terms
of this mechanism and the definition of Life.
* How does this concept explain Chomsky's universal grammar in
children if he says that natural selection can't explain it.
* What is the concept Chomsky had with "natural selection" was he
referring to the paper by Haloy which Darwin called The Theory of
Descent with Modification which Darwin associated with the term The
Theory of Natural Selection. Was Chomsky actually thinking in French
about the 1846 paper?
* Does this mechanism function in the same way as millions of years
ago today, if so what was the definition of Life millions of years
ago?
* How would we falsify the mechanism's action millions of years ago
since we don't have any brain tissue from back then nor knew what Life
was back then.
* The question implies that we know what the mechanism is but since we
can't define Life we don't know what to falsify.
* How do we falsify something we can't define.
* Which fossil with his progeny would be evidence for the action of
this mechanism and how would you relate this fossil to the question of
what is Life.
* Take any fossil how do you know the fossil had progeny.
* How does this mechanism explain an egg turning into a chicken a
question from 1909 Botanical Gazette http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microevolution
MicroEvolution
* In the cow whale transition did this mechanism achieve the
transition in the same way an egg turns into a chicken, answer in
terms of what Life is.
* How does this mechanism explain inverted pendulum control as an
abstract concept in all animals implemented physically by soft
tissue.
* Is this control algorithm somehow separate in a higher dimension
from gray brain matter or part of it, how would the mechanism explain
it.
* How does soft brain tissue with it's neural connections relate to
the definition of Life?
* How does a dumb chicken implement an abstract concept such as
inverted pendulum control if humans have difficulty describing it
mathematically ?
* Derive from first principles how this mechanism transmits IPC as an
abstract concept from millions of years ago till today?
* Control engineers start with PID control before learing Neural
control, how did this mechanism migrate the abstract IPC algorithm
from PID to Neural in a chicken?
* Did the control algorithm in the chickens brain perhaps skip PID and
went straight for Neural control how did the paper by Haloy Descent
with Modification which Darwin was referring to with his concept
that he labeled natural selection answer the question.
* How did this mechanism do it for all the other millions of animals
independently and how does this relate to the definition of Life.
* How do two dumb chickens transmit the Inverted pendulum control
algorithm to a blob of jelly which turns into an egg.
* How does this mechanism take an egg consisting of a blob of yolk
transmit the abstract IPC control algorithm to the chicken it turns
into.
* How does a blob of egg yolk transmit the abstract control algorithm
of inverted pendulum control or is IPC perhaps "outside" the egg on a
higher dimension?
* If all thoughts are created by brain chemical actions how do we know
our brain doesn't consist of illusions?
* If we came from a first living cell did it have all the control
algorithms preprogrammed ready for use millions of years down the line
by this mechanism?
* And if not why not, derive from first principles without talking
about survival advantage and include the definition of Life in
your answer.
* Control theory and the math transfer functions solved in real-time
are interdependent, how is this interdependence explained by the
mechanism.
* The real-time pivoting of a chicken on two legs does it use pre-
emptive multitasking , what operating system does it use Linux, Dos of
OS2?
* How does the mechanism explaining dreaming after we put our
operating system in sleep mode other than talking about "survival
advantage" .
* How does this mechanism derive an operating system in animals never
in contact with one another but implementing the same abstract
concepts?
* How many morphological transitions did it take to convert the
control mechanism in a cow to a whale in the cow whale transition.
* How would the absence of soft brain tissue from fossils impact on
deriving this mechanisms action from first principles.
* What example today could be provided for the action of this
mechanism other than noting animals are preserved and have survived.
* What would be the result on the survival and preservation of species
if this mechanism no longer operates.
* What falsification test can be provided for this mechanism.
* Why must this mechanism be called natural selectus.
* If the mechanism is material then why is the word *selectus* used a
word Augustus used in 99% of cases in the volition,motive
consciousness sense.
* What is the relation between the two words *selection* and
*selectus* and what relevance does it have IPC control algorithm in
terms of the definition of Life.
* Where is the formally established Theory of Evolution on wikipedia ?
* When people say ToE are they using the term for its rhetorical
effect or are they thinking of an actual theory defined in terms of
the definition of Life.
* Where is the formally established Theory of Natural Selection on
wikipedia ?
* Is the word "evolution" the same concept as Theory of Evolution.
* What do you assume to be the truth?
* What is Truth and how would this mechanism explain it.
* What is the relation of this mechanism to the word "evolutionary" -
what does this mean?
* What is the relation between the Theory of Evolution and Theory of
Natural Selection , what are these theories in terms of the definition
of Life 	
		
		
	On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:40:03 -0800 (PST), backspace <...@gmail.com
"....preservation of favored races....." the preservation self
referentially implies "favored" and "favored" implies the
"preservation" of the races.
Here is what Wikipedia tells us about statements that self
referentially implies the other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric)
"..A rhetorical tautology ...... is a series of statements...........
that the truth of the propositions cannot be disputed by defining a
term in term's of another self referentially. ....... It is
formulating a description in a way that masquerades as an explanation
when the real reason for the phenomena cannot be independently
derived......"
"....preservation of favored races...." is a description of the
obvious phenomena that there are races but this description
masquerades as an explanation when the real reason for the existence
or races cannot be independently derived because it must incorporate
the definition of Life which everybody now admits isn't defined with
the reigning materialist paradigm. The materialist have ruled out
apriori any other definition of life that doesn't have materialist
implications. 	
		
		
	On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:01:59 -0800 (PST), Wombat <...@multiweb.nl
On 16 Jan, 18:40, backspace <...@gmail.com
Yawn.
Wombat 	
		
Discussion Title: Re: Darwin on propositions which can't be disputed
Title Keywords: Darwin propositions which can't disputed
Category:Natural selection