148615-so-dominion-and-exiles

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So as MMO’s go I’ve really really enjoyed Wildstar so far.  From the perspective of the universe it exists in, it is rather well built and has a lot going for it.  Now I love a good debate and I will focus my thoughts bases solely on the Wildstar universe and not that silly Earth planet we all know and love.
 
I know the drive was to make both the exiles and Dominion not good or bad, but have gray in both factions but I gota tell ya, I’m kina on board with the Dominion.    In the Wildstar universe, it’s plenty easy to take the side of the Exiles.  I mean, even their name has a lost puppy feel to it.  Driven from their homes, forced to roam the universe, barely able to survive, desperate to find a place in the galaxy.
 
I don’t buy it.
 
The Mordish: I really felt bad for them in their plight for a cure until I found out, they wanted to join the Dominion in the first place AND their sickness was self inflicted.  They only went Exile because the Dominion didn’t want them and their over zealous and detrimental failure affect the whole.  These guys are …I cannot find any other word….just ripping Nexus apart.   I just finished the missions on that godtree place and man, really?   They are literally taking a drill to the heart of the planet and plowing into it.  They want Nexus samples from the planet by murdering animal and native life the same and take sick joy in doing so. I mean I killed native sapient humans and took the comparison of the Navie (I know Avatar reference) life tree and tore its face off.  Every mission I work for them I have better vibes working with a Chua then them.
 
Aurin:  These guys.   Remind me of my cat.  Cuddly and friendly but would murder you and smile at the same time.  If I got it right, the Chua fire bombed their planet and the Humans were there in time to save them?   Another sad sad story of innocent fuzzy elves looking for a home.  Ok, back on Nexus, are we seeing a race, desperate for survival or how they were all the time?  Again, most missions I take for them is to Preserve the forest, guard the wildlife, protect the spirits….by murdering, blasting, cutting, and exploding every tree, plant, animal, and native species that gets in the way.   These are missions that rarely have a Dominion counterpoint to them.  It’s just them establishing their dominance over the planet…with fire and blade.  Keep your hugs to yourself.
 
Granok:  I honestly don’t know what to make of them and I haven’t gotten into their lore enough to go pro or con on them.  They were, again, a race driven from their home and forced to ally with the exiles.  They seem to have more clay than rocks when it comes to the battle field though and get taken out easier than a leaf on the wind.  I’m not overtly impressed with them and they are just a hired gun in my opinion.  I see it as they lost at their own game and are too much of a pansy to suck it up.    
 
Humans:  Ok these are the only folks I see as having a vaguely legit claim.  Slightly.  They have been pretty much on their own migrant fleet (yes yes Mass effect) for hundreds of years and have been the rallying race for the other three.  Good show.   They found Nexus and wanted to make a new home for all in the Exiles.  Good cause, go for it.  I have yet to find a mission where they are not dying for the other three or risking their necks or pulling the other three out of the fires they either stumble into or make with gasoline.  They want freedom, they want the right to choose and to be independent.  All great stuff,  but looking at their friends, I wouldn’t want them on my side either.
 
Say what you want about the Dominion, The Mechari bring order, the Draken bring the pain, the Cassian’s bring the prestige, and the Chua.  Well, they are the ones the other three call in when all else fails.   Yea, toss in a pile of arrogance, pride, and blind ambition, but Id rather make a mistake I can learn from than “liberate” the hell out of the cradle of the galaxy.
 
 
 
Go Dominion.
			
				
	Edited December 31, 2015 by Captainspire	
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			Dominion is my chosen faction but I have to step in for the Granok here. They are the Exiles entire military. They were solely responsible for the Dominions only known defeat in it's entire thousand year history. They drove the Dominion back and killed an entire Legion of Draken. These guys are hard core.	
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but I have to step in for the Granok here...These guys are hard core.
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			Admittedly, the Granok are on the front lines of every battle I've seen so far.   They may be the only reason the Exiles still exist. 	
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Just some clarifications on a few points.
 
Mordesh as a species didn't up and cause the contagion, it's the doing of Victor Lazarin and his hubris when releasing his everlife elixir. Most of the life harvesting they do out of plight, not malice. They do have a dark side to them however, no arguments there.
 
Aurin were targeted by the dominion, and DRED specifically because they welcomed the exile fleet as guests and decided to trade with them and share some agricultural knowhow. This earned them planet reaping, because dominion diplomacy. They have resolved to make Nexus their home whatever it takes, and they've learned that violence is what that often is the hard way.
 
When it comes to saving the other race's asses, granok takes first place hands down. The exile humans are definately part of that backbone, but the FCON is what makes it all possible, which is a granok company at its core.
			
				
	Edited December 31, 2015 by Jelletje	
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Yeah, the Dominion definitely needs more....um...."well informed" and "completely unbiased"...players like this.
 
Go Dominion, indeed.
 
 
 
(lol)	
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Thanks for your +1 Dharnell.  At the least Jelletje offered info and not the kind of thing I'd expect from a blindsided exile lover.  
 
I guess you missed the last paragraph but who reads now a days right Dharnell?  Are we done?
 
Seeing how the Dominion impose their will on others in an, our way or the spaceway, mindset, there will always be factions that directly oppose the Dominion.
What gets me about the Aruin, is they should have taken a foot note from the Ekose.  They work with both factions being the shippers and tradsmen of these waring factions.  Odd how the Dominion have not opposed this outright or the Exiles used this to their advantage.   I guess the Aruin went full bore assist to the exiles and that was what had the Dominion flip the Chua switch and let their planet burn.
 
The Granok always struck me as the type not willing to pick an unfair fight but will start a good one.  As I said, that's one of the Lore I haven't got much into. 
 
Seeing what the Mordish are doing to the "tree of life," they are really the dark side of the Exiles in my opinion.
 
I'm sure the Dominion will get a wake up call, either from a more superior culture or their own reckless ambitions.   I'm barely through level 20 on a character on each side, so we'll see.
 
Yea I get a rush charging into Dominion frontlines with my Medic, but I'm more swayed when Im sent on a Dominion mission to point the finger at someone, the Cassians and Mechari don't have so much pride they can't see they are wrong.    Then again there is that one Cassian who wants to borgify the universe now.
 
I'm still pro Dominion.  	
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I guess you actually thought your last paragraph preemptively countered/protected you from something. But it didn't. And I actually play both sides. So "there goes that" baseless assumption of yours.
 
Secondly, the "Aruin" were completely oblivious to the entire Dominion vs. Exile conflict, and didn't know that the two were at war. Since they were isolated on their own primitive planet. So they couldn't have "taken a footnote from the Ekose", because they weren't space travelers. Let us know when you actually learn about the game's lore, before you start to decide what each group is "actually" like, again.
			
				
	Edited December 31, 2015 by Dharnell	
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Just some clarifications on a few points.
 
Mordesh as a species didn't up and cause the contagion, it's the doing of Victor Lazarin and his hubris when releasing his everlife elixir. Most of the life harvesting they do out of plight, not malice. They do have a dark side to them however, no arguments there.
 
Yes and no. While the blame ultimately lies on Victor for not properly testing his elixer, the Mordesh also hold a portion of the blame for buying his snake oil with out any skepticism. "Is not the man who follows the fool also a fool himself"-anon
 
Aurin were targeted by the dominion, and DRED specifically because they welcomed the exile fleet as guests and decided to trade with them and share some agricultural knowhow. This earned them planet reaping, because dominion diplomacy. They have resolved to make Nexus their home whatever it takes, and they've learned that violence is what that often is the hard way.
 
Aurin weren't targeted, their planet was targeted for resource extraction as punishment for supporting terrorists (the Exiles, from the Dominion's perspective). The Dominion didn't send a military invasion force, they sent the planet reapers. 
 
Many Aurin disagree with the Queen and vehemently oppose making Nexus their home, including her first consort and military advisor Arwick Redleaf (who warned against aiding the Exiles in the first place). This has caused major rifts in Aurin society with groups like the Thorns of Arboria abandoning the Queen and remaining on Arboria to protect the mother tree, and the Sandthorns on nexus from attacking their fellow Exiles as well as the Dominion as eco terrorists. The Aurin aren't disagreable to violence, they are disagreeable to unkindness. Don't forget they are hunters at their core, and they fight and kill just as anyone else (heck, they even raise thinking, feeling, loving beings to be slaughtered and eaten wholesale). Being unkind / grumpy is a punishible offense by Aurin law... 
 
When it comes to saving the other race's asses, granok takes first place hands down. The exile humans are definately part of that backbone, but the FCON is what makes it all possible, which is a granok company at its core.
 
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But I disagree here. Arwick (and others) had serious objections to helping the Exiles, so the Aurin were not oblivious, Myala Everstar was oblivious (or too naive to care about the consequences). The rest about the Ekose is true, but remember the Dominion is NOT out to destroy / conquer the galaxy. They are called by their gods (the Eldan) to spread peace, order, and justice through the galaxy. If the Ekose don't go against that peace, order, and justice then the Dominion doesn't care, even if they do occasionally go against it, their trade network is undoubtedly too valuable for the Dominion to compromise. The only thing the Aurin contributed to the galaxy at that point in time was supporting terrorists, so there was little reason to stay their resource gathering on account of their value.
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The Aurin were oblivious of the entire war outside of their bubble/planet and Arwick was the main one who objected to helping them, upon meeting them. Because he felt that there was some dark shadow cast over them. (Which was the Dominion chasing them.) Not because he/the Aurin knew the Dominion was following them. They had no way of knowing. Because prior to Dorian touching down on the planet, they had never seen, nor come in contact with, a single being outside of Arboria before. And the Exiles didn't even mention the Dominion either. So the Aurin were completely in the dark, when it came to who they were helping. They were just being their normal hospitable selves.
 
The Dominion isn't out to destroy the galaxy, they're just out to make it all fall under their banner. By force, if necessary. Much like the Eldan did to them, initially.
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"I have a bad feeling about this" =/= "I absolutely knew they were being chased by a galactic empire hellbent on their destruction and will try to completely rip apart our planet until we are all dead."
 
Also, the Eldan introduced themselves to the Cassians through the Mechari. It went something like "give us your greatest warrior or we destroy your entire civilization."	
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"I have a bad feeling about this" =/= "I absolutely knew they were being chased by a galactic empire hellbent on their destruction and will try to completely rip apart our planet until we are all dead."
 
Also, the Eldan introduced themselves to the Cassians through the Mechari. It went something like "give us your greatest warrior or we destroy your entire civilization."
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Actually, the Aurin literally had no way of knowing. The Exiles tried to ensure they were out of there the minute they could be without the Dominion catching them. Also, the Exiles were on a death spiral. No Arboria, Exiles die.
 
Also, the Exiles are not responsible for the actions of the Dominion. Sorry but "I killed you because they're evil" does not rest on any foundation of sound logic. YOU are solely responsible for YOUR actions. Do the Exiles owe fault to placing the Aurin in danger? Yes. Did they choose not to mention the Dominion? Seems so. Does that place the millions/billions/however many Aurin killed by the Dominion squarely on the Exiles' shoulders? Nope. Exiles didn't pull the trigger. Dominion said screw you, you helped these people who concealed us chasing them from you, you're dead.
 
And, sorry, but please read http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/stories/rise-of-the-cassians.htmlbefore you suggest that it was simply "threatening language." And I quote,
 
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Their leader, a robotic Mechari, claimed that the godlike Eldan had chosen the Cassians to rule the universe. All they required in return was the swordmaiden Tresayne Toria, their greatest warrior. The alternative was extinction. To save her people, Tresayne consented.
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Actually, the Aurin literally had no way of knowing. The Exiles tried to ensure they were out of there the minute they could be without the Dominion catching them. Also, the Exiles were on a death spiral. No Arboria, Exiles die.
 
I already explained the flaws in this thinking. It's impossible to resupply an entire fleet with out discussing reasons for being there. And if they lied then the loss of Arboria is on the Exiles for not being forthright and leaving the choice to the Aurin given the consequences. But that's moot, Arwick, and many Aurin knew helping the Exiles was a bad idea, the widely acknowledged as naieve queen aided them regardless of protests from her top advisor. Resupplying a fleet isn't like getting gas at a pump.
 
Also, the Exiles are not responsible for the actions of the Dominion. Sorry but "I killed you because they're evil" does not rest on any foundation of sound logic. YOU are solely responsible for YOUR actions. Do the Exiles owe fault to placing the Aurin in danger? Yes. Did they choose not to mention the Dominion? Seems so. Does that place the millions/billions/however many Aurin killed by the Dominion squarely on the Exiles' shoulders? Nope. Exiles didn't pull the trigger. Dominion said screw you, you helped these people who concealed us chasing them from you, you're dead.
 
There is no lore evidence to suggest that the Exiles lied to the Aurin (I'm actually suggesting they did the RIGHT thing in this instance...). Let me ask a rhetorical question; 
 
Some one comes to your door beat up and bleeding asking for help. They either 1) tell you they just killed a man or 2) don't tell you what happened. Do you A) let them stay with you, eat your food, and give them shelter or 2) turn them away and call the police? 
 
Think to yourself what you would do. then consider this. No matter whether you accepted their response of 1 or 2, if you decide to A, you are getting arrested for harbouring a criminal. You will be charged with a felony and imprisoned if found guilty. Those are OUR laws. Now consider what we do to nations that aid terrorists (e.g. Afganistan / Iraq).
 
 
Now finally, remind me again when the Dominion military landed on Arboria with the express mission of killing the Aurin? Oh right, NEVER. The Dominion was never interested in killing the Aurin, they wanted ONLY to take their planets resources for the Empire. They sent Planet Reapers to harvest the wood and minerals of the planet, not the dominion legions to slaughter the Aurin. 
 
And, sorry, but please read http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/stories/rise-of-the-cassians.htmlbefore you suggest that it was simply "threatening language." And I quote,
 
Sorry for what?, It expressly states those are the words of AXIS PHEYDRA, a millennial mechari. The Mechari don't have the same emotional grounding as humans, just as they don't have the same emotional grounding as Aurin, or chua, etc. Pheydra could say what ever she wanted, but the Eldan would have been furious if she harmed the Cassians. 
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I agree with everything else you've mentioned in this thread Dharnell, but this just isn't true. Arwick was the first consort and TOP advisor to the Queen, and he knew the Exiles were bad business. We can't suggest the Aurin were oblivious. Clearly the "Aurin" as a group, had members who knew aiding the Exiles was going to be trouble. Other Aurin groups agreed, and we have lore that supports the divisive issue in Aurin culture that aiding the Exiles was. at least a portion of the Aurin did not agree with the queen. Some disagreed so much they ignored the evac and stayed, others took the evac and abandoned the queen. This isn't a black and white "they didn't know". The Aurin, as feral as they may have been, were NOT stupid. It's Myala's character that is Naive, not all Aurin.
 
The Dominion doesn't care if the whole galaxy is "under their banner", their goal is uniting the galaxy in a shared peace and order. when they lost to the Granok they left them be, they don't force the Ekose, the Grund, the Lopp, or any other species to fall "under their banner". They might prefer it, but they don't force it. The Eldan didn't force the cassians to join, the Cassians willingly did, because the technology the Eldan were promising completely revolutionized their way of life. It gave them control of weather, cured horrific injury... the quality of life enhancement they promised was beyond anything we have an analogue for in our world. Pheydra (and the Widow) care about control, the Exiles and Dominon do not. The Dominion wan'ts law and order, the Exiles don't like their laws or their justice.
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You're literally denying posted lore written by the devs. It says it right there. Either she gives herself up or they face eradication. The Mechari came as envoys of the Eldan, the Mechari obey the Eldan. If the Eldan did not want the Cassians dead, Pheydra wouldn't have been authorized to say 'give her to us or you all die.'
 
One problem with literally your entire metaphor: the Aurin did not know of the Dominion until they came a-knockin'. Any reasonable citizen now knows the saying: ignorance is no excuse. Except, now we're talking about someone who lives in the Amazon forest separated from the modern world who throws spears at airplanes. They take in a fugitive from a nearby country because they feel nice and have had a plentiful harvest. Suddenly that country comes in and takes everything they have and chooses to kill them.
 
In your metaphor, you come in, take my stuff and shoot me on your way out, because you saw the man leaving my house. And I had no idea you were ever chasing him.
 
Also, saying 'they never came to kill the Aurin' is really... Wow. Okay, let's strip the entire planet of all resources so that nothing living can inhabit it. Everyone's dead. But it's okay, we didn't come here to kill them explicitly. That's a ridiculously flimsy premise.	
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You're literally denying posted lore written by the devs. It says it right there. Either she gives herself up or they face eradication. The Mechari came as envoys of the Eldan, the Mechari obey the Eldan. If the Eldan did not want the Cassians dead, Pheydra wouldn't have been authorized to say 'give her to us or you all die.'
 
No I'm not, the actual offer was:
 
"Pheydra's voice boomed across the square and the planet, echoing like thunder from the clouds. "We are the Mechari, emissaries of the glorious and powerful Eldan. Tresayne Toria must accompany us back to our world. In return, your race will rule the universe.""
 
The Mechari were servants of the Eldan, they could use what ever means they desired but they couldn't destroy a civilization the Eldan marked to rule their empire. Again, Pheydra mentioned their extermination in passing after already making the offer. That may have been the sentiment of the Mechari, but the Eldan wouldn't have willingly lost such a valuable species
 
One problem with literally your entire metaphor: the Aurin did not know of the Dominion until they came a-knockin'. Any reasonable citizen now knows the saying: ignorance is no excuse. Except, now we're talking about someone who lives in the Amazon forest separated from the modern world who throws spears at airplanes. They take in a fugitive from a nearby country because they feel nice and have had a plentiful harvest. Suddenly that country comes in and takes everything they have and chooses to kill them.
 
In your metaphor, you come in, take my stuff and shoot me on your way out, because you saw the man leaving my house. And I had no idea you were ever chasing him.
 
Why neglect the direct analogue to our SOP with nations that aid terrorists? How does our nation deal with other nations that aid terrorists regardless of whether they abide by our laws? For example Afghanistan and Iraq? How do we deal with those who shelter and aid terrorists? Compare and contrast to the Dominion's actions.
 
Also, saying 'they never came to kill the Aurin' is really... Wow. Okay, let's strip the entire planet of all resources so that nothing living can inhabit it. Everyone's dead. But it's okay, we didn't come here to kill them explicitly. That's a ridiculously flimsy premise.
 
Its the actual story. Aurin still inhabit Arboria (the Thorns of Arboria still live there, and still protect the mother tree) as do the Dominion who are there harvesting resources. resource extraction =/= uninhabitable. It's literally false to say "everyones dead", the Aurin who died were those who tried to attack the planet reapers / stood in their way. Those that didnt are still very alive. The analogy to our world would be something like stripping the Amazon from the perspective of the indigenous peoples that live there. 
 
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The Sandthorns and other groups have disaowed the queen and her decisions. This is in the written lore and in the dialogue when leveling through Celestion and dealing with the conflicts within and between the Aurin. There are factions witin the Aurin that do not support the Queen and her decision to stay on Nexus. "bad vibes" mean something very different when you are a race of primal life attuned espers...
 
Fine. Name them. Go. You have few individual Aurin like the one journal from that one SINGLE Aurin under the pen name, and the Sandthorne. What other factions are there? Where's the canon that states there's a lot of conflict? Post something to back up your claims. Don't just name drop zones in game. Screenshots. Something. Go. You're being overdramatic and over stating the amount of dissent among the Aurin. Because there's barely anything written about the inner conflict of Aurin since then. And on top of that, there's nothing in the lore that refutes the point I actually made about "bad vibes". You're confusing your own head canon as actual canon again.
 
so your'e telling me the entire Exile fleet resupplied on Arboria and NO ONE mentioned the Dominion once? Dharnell, you want me to believe a race that can LITERALLY use the weave to see and travel nearly anywhere had NO clue about the Dominion when negotiating with the Exiles?
 
Can you can point to something that says otherwise? I don't think so, because every source of lore outright states and/or implies that they didn't say anything to the Aurin about the Dominion. You're making things up again.
 
And when in history have the Eldan as a group ever intentionally exterminated any species they valued with out them being a serious threat? Even the Dominion hasn't, the only close call was the Granok and this was not because they refused but because they killed Mechari ambassadors. The Dominion has (at very least seen in Malgrave) extended exclusive reltions with the Lopp and other races, but was denied and did not destroy them... The only race that was completely eliminated were the megadroids for discovering Nexus, because the planets isolation couldn't be compromised. They also severely damaged the Osun, but they didn't eliminate them, as the point was to strip them of the knowledge to forge Exanite, something that made them a serious threat.
 
This has nothing to do with the CANON ultimatum that I stated and pointed to, and is just another attempt at a distraction by you, over you being dead wrong when it comes to canon. As usual.
 
The Dominion didn't deal with the Murgh in Deradune, they dealt with the Falkrin. As did the Exiles in Galleras. They would not have exterminated the Falkrin if they hadn't killed the Ambassadors sent to negotiate, but alas just like the Granok they did. You harm Dominion Citizens you are going down. And lets not forget the Exiles did the EXACT same to the Falkrin in Galeras, or do you forget that you orbitally bombard their nests with the Granok? 
 
Sorry, you were right. The Falkrin. But the rest? You're a liar. The Dominion were preparing to kill them before they even initially MET them. But alas, you left that part out intentionally.
 
 
At least the Granok in FCON planned to attack them AFTER the Falkrin ambushed and killed their soldiers and the Exile civilians.
 
Cost was no issue, they have near unlimited resources and wealth. The issue was the same as US and vietnam, it took a heavy toll on morale and the Dominion didn't have a real horse in the fight. The Granok rejected membership, which wasn't a problem, their killing the ambassadors was, and losing thousands more citizens for revenge was silly.
 
I didn't say finacially it was "costly" for them.
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The Sandthorns and other groups have disaowed the queen and her decisions. This is in the written lore and in the dialogue when leveling through Celestion and dealing with the conflicts within and between the Aurin. There are factions witin the Aurin that do not support the Queen and her decision to stay on Nexus. "bad vibes" mean something very different when you are a race of primal life attuned espers...
 
Fine. Name them. Go. You have few individual Aurin like the one journal from that one SINGLE Aurin under the pen name, and the Sandthorne. What other factions are there? Where's the canon that states there's a lot of conflict? Post something to back up your claims. Don't just name drop zones in game. Screenshots. Something. Go. You're being overdramatic and over stating the amount of dissent among the Aurin. Because there's barely anything written about the inner conflict of Aurin since then. And on top of that, there's nothing in the lore that refutes the point I actually made about "bad vibes". You're confusing your own head canon as actual canon again.
 
you've just named a faction and individuals, proving my point. QED. There is shown to be a lot of conflict through out the entire Celestion Arc where Myala and Arwick are constantly fretting about whether she made the right call, given the push back. I'm not being over dramatic, I'm responding to the original claim that there was NO dissent, and that NO ONE disagreed with the queen. I've sufficiently shown that's not the case, even you presented lore and groups that show that.
 
so your'e telling me the entire Exile fleet resupplied on Arboria and NO ONE mentioned the Dominion once? Dharnell, you want me to believe a race that can LITERALLY use the weave to see and travel nearly anywhere had NO clue about the Dominion when negotiating with the Exiles?
 
Can you can point to something that says otherwise? I don't think so, because every source of lore outright states and/or implies that they didn't say anything to the Aurin about the Dominion. You're making things up again.
 
Yes, 1) common sense and 2) the consistent lore mentions of Aurin not wanting to help the Exiles, including but not limited to Arwick Redleaf, the second most powerful Aurin in the game politically. Again, you're expecting me to believe psychic rabbits resupplied the entire Exile fleet never knowing anything about the Dominion or conflict when a clearly battle damaged fleet showed up at their doorstep. Myala may be intensely naive, but the Aurin are quite intuitive and smart.
 
And when in history have the Eldan as a group ever intentionally exterminated any species they valued with out them being a serious threat? Even the Dominion hasn't, the only close call was the Granok and this was not because they refused but because they killed Mechari ambassadors. The Dominion has (at very least seen in Malgrave) extended exclusive reltions with the Lopp and other races, but was denied and did not destroy them... The only race that was completely eliminated were the megadroids for discovering Nexus, because the planets isolation couldn't be compromised. They also severely damaged the Osun, but they didn't eliminate them, as the point was to strip them of the knowledge to forge Exanite, something that made them a serious threat.
 
This has nothing to do with the CANON ultimatum that I stated and pointed to, and is just another attempt at a distraction by you, over you being dead wrong when it comes to canon. As usual.
 
What Ultimatum? Not against the Cassians, as when Dominus deliverd it there was no word of exterminaton. Against the Falkrin? Because the head Ambassador didn't mention it, at least not until her head was seperated from her body.
 
The Dominion didn't deal with the Murgh in Deradune, they dealt with the Falkrin. As did the Exiles in Galleras. They would not have exterminated the Falkrin if they hadn't killed the Ambassadors sent to negotiate, but alas just like the Granok they did. You harm Dominion Citizens you are going down. And lets not forget the Exiles did the EXACT same to the Falkrin in Galeras, or do you forget that you orbitally bombard their nests with the Granok? 
 
Sorry, you were right. The Falkrin. But the rest? You're a liar. The Dominion were preparing to kill them before they even initially MET them. But alas, you left that part out intentionally.
 
 
At least the Granok in FCON planned to attack them AFTER the Falkrin ambushed and killed their soldiers and the Exile civilians.
 
So one snooty cassian mentions if they don't cooperate then military action will result, while the exact same policy is held by the Granok. Neither faction acted on it until AFTER negotations failed. As a Dom player you go to the meeting, they have actual negotiations, but the Falkrin kill the Ambassadors in cold blood. Only THEN is military action initiated. Same with the Granok, only after their efforts at diplomacy fail do they exterminate the Falkrin.
 
Cost was no issue, they have near unlimited resources and wealth. The issue was the same as US and vietnam, it took a heavy toll on morale and the Dominion didn't have a real horse in the fight. The Granok rejected membership, which wasn't a problem, their killing the ambassadors was, and losing thousands more citizens for revenge was silly.
 
I didn't say finacially it was "costly" for them.
 
Dharnell, when we say we're going to bring "democracy" to an "oppressed" or "backward" nation... and then we invade/kill them and force our idealogy on them. How is that different from the Dominion, who believe they are literally chosen by gods (which is strictly speaking, actually TRUE, given the Eldan did ascend to goodhood as the Drusentity for better AND worse) to spread their justice and ideals.....
 
Stop, and think hard about that. Also consider whether the Dominion, with the highest standard of living by far even for its poorest citizens, free education and healthcare for all citizens and upward mobility for those who earn it, is right to believe their ideals are superior to other ideals that other factions hold.
 
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You've just named a faction and individuals, proving my point. QED. There is shown to be a lot of conflict through out the entire Celestion Arc where Myala and Arwick are constantly fretting about whether she made the right call, given the push back. I'm not being over dramatic, I'm responding to the original claim that there was NO dissent, and that NO ONE disagreed with the queen. I've sufficiently shown that's not the case, even you presented lore and groups that show that.
 
"No". There wasn't a lot of conflict, through out the entire Celestion Arc, because you mainly only see the Queen when you flee, when you deal with the drilling Mordesh (for a short second), an when it's time to pick a Matria for Sylvan Glade. And only the 1st example touches on fleeing Arboria. And that's just one brief moment after she says that she's tired. Between then, you're mostly doing work for Arwick....in relation to Draken invaders, the Lopps in their Village, the Torine, Mordesh, and Moodie related stuff with random NPCs. You're lying once again. Especially because you're responding to me, like I made the claim that "not a single Aurin ever disagreed with the queen." Like that accusation is relevant to what I'M saying. Which it isn't.
 
Yes, 1) common sense and 2) the consistent lore mentions of Aurin not wanting to help the Exiles, including but not limited to Arwick Redleaf, the second most powerful Aurin in the game politically. Again, you're expecting me to believe psychic rabbits resupplied the entire Exile fleet never knowing anything about the Dominion or conflict when a clearly battle damaged fleet showed up at their doorstep. Myala may be intensely naive, but the Aurin are quite intuitive and smart.
 
So no proof? Hiding behind a lack of evidence that you mislabeled as "common sense", and your proof that amounts to nothing more than "It's out there trust me guyz!", doesn't fly. Back up your claims. No "Nazryn Canon". Actual canon. Put up or shut up, time. No theory/head canons. Quote something official. Go. Otherwise what little (rapidly decreasing amount of) credibility you have left with all things lore related is completely gone. Sorry, you're not in the Lore section anymore, which is just a hilarious "Woe-is-Me-Dominion! Echo Chamber." We deal with facts out here.
 
What Ultimatum? Not against the Cassians, as when Dominus deliverd it there was no word of exterminaton. Against the Falkrin? Because the head Ambassador didn't mention it, at least not until her head was seperated from her body.
 
Now you're just flailing, talking in nonsense, being deliberately obtuse, and pretending that I never linked the very thing that refutes the lie about the Eldan not saying "Do this or die." to the Cassians.
 
Here it is again:
 
 
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"The Eldan proceeded to give an ultimatum to the people of Cassus: surrender Tresayne Toria, or be annihilated. The Cassians happily complied, and so did Tresayne after a brief scuffle and a slight modification to the agreement--she was to bring her fellow Swordmaidens with her."
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This is the only thing the Eldan themselves have ever had to say about the whole "exterminating the Cassians" thing, make of it what you will.
 	
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This is the only thing the Eldan themselves have ever had to say about the whole "exterminating the Cassians" thing, make of it what you will.
 
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There are some hilarious exagerations on the original post on the 'summary' of the Exile races. This conversation has been done to death before, though, and there's nothing new to add to it. 
Heck, I see even Nazryn is still around, whipping out the same old smokescreen arguments he always bring. Good to know some things never change, I guess! I'm sure the Writers are proud they attracted people like that whose idea of discussing lore is bringing real world examples (to cause an emotional reaction on the other participants and throw them off the rails, a useful tactic if what you seek is to "win the argument" rather than discuss the matter) and claim that the game is morally ambiguous even though that claim doesn't hold many candles once you actually pay attention to the lore. 
But hey, Pappy added an evil aurin or something on the Dominion tutorial, last time I checked, so maybe with enough time he'll retcon everything so both sides are equally disgusting.
			
				
	Edited January 1, 2016 by Ildur	
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Oh look, Ad Hominem from Ildur... I'm so surprised. To Dharnell's credit he tries to stay on topic.
 
I agree though, this is quite silly. The Dominion and Exiles are just as good and bad as eachother, confirmed by HernCO and Pappy on multiple occasions (see HernCO's Reddit lore drop I quoted earlier).
 
The Aurin were not clueless. Myala as a character is Naive and clueless, she may not have seen the danger, but Arwick did, and so did other Aurin. As shown by the TFBTF issue, Myala and Arwick also placed at least some of the blame on the Exiles for their problems with the Dominion.
 
I agree completely with Jell, Pheydra has her own way of dealing with things (which usually involves threats of extermination), but the Eldan had no such plans and would not suffer such a thing at the hands of their servants. The Eldan were nothing if not pragmatic, and genocide served no purpose. This is furter shown by the "ultimatum"  given by Dominus to the Cassians when he returns to Cassius, which does not have the same 'flair' as Pheydra's.
 
Just a few notes about Ildur's comments. There was ALWAYS an Exile saboteur on the Dominion Arkship. The Aurin have always raised, slaughtered, and eaten sentient, sapient, thinking, feeling organisms, the Exile humans had always conducted mass terrorist attacks during Brightland's rebellion on innocent Dominion citizens, The Mordesh were always responsible for creating the 2nd worst pathogen in the galaxy etc, etc, etc. They have ALWAYS been just as bad / good as the Dominion.
 
And I don't draw parallels to how WE act to "cause an emotional reaction", I do it to show the REAL themes and tropes the writers are weaving into the narrative, and how asinine it is to consider a faction that does not do anything worse then our own nation has or does as "evil". My comments are never based in drawing out emotional reactions, they are to provoke honest and serious thought.
 
Again, because it's still lost on so many:
 
"The main conflict in the game is between the Dominion, who believe their gods (the Eldan) granted them the galaxy to rule in the name of peace, law, and justice; and the Exiles, who have banded together to oppose them - or just survive. The Dominion isn't inherently evil and the Exiles aren't inherently good, they just have opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe, and they feel very strongly about it." - CRB HernCO
			
				
	Edited January 1, 2016 by Nazryn	
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Pun intended? :P
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... The Mordesh were always responsible for creating the 2nd worst pathogen in the galaxy...
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			Tired of the whole Dominion vs Exiles thing. Just merge the damn factions already. It's easy, just say the Mechari Millennials imprisoned Myracalus and were responsible for all the atrocities the Dominion did. Have the player character rescue him and he forms a truce with the Exiles. Done.	
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Again, because it's still lost on so many:
 
"The main conflict in the game is between the Dominion, who believe their gods (the Eldan) granted them the galaxy to rule in the name of peace, law, and justice; and the Exiles, who have banded together to oppose them - or just survive. The Dominion isn't inherently evil and the Exiles aren't inherently good, they just have opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe, and they feel very strongly about it." - CRB HernCO
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Tired of the whole Dominion vs Exiles thing. Just merge the damn factions already. It's easy, just say the Mechari Millennials imprisoned Myracalus and were responsible for all the atrocities the Dominion did. Have the player character rescue him and he forms a truce with the Exiles. Done.
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Actually, I'd love to hear CRB_HernCO justify granting moral equivalence to the phrase "My gods have given me the right to rule the galaxy" and the phrase "I don't want to be subjugated or killed by someone who believes their gods have given them the right to rule the galaxy".
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No.
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Goodness yes! This is probably the root of why I just can't bring myself to view the two sides as equally right/wrong - they might both be equally capable of (and culpable for) good and bad actions, but only one side has an overall justification that I can accept as legitimate. As an atheist growing up in a democracy, "we rule by divine right" just sounds like a synonym for "we're the bad guys".
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I think the Dominion's claim for ownership of the galaxy would taste a lot better if it was accompanied with consistent doses of 'but if you don't want to be ruled by us, we'll leave you alone'. And if they were, you know, generally nice.
I say 'consistent' because there's no reason for them to not try to conquer Protostar, the Lopp, the Ekose, the Grumpels...and yet they leave them alone while trying to conquer other races. The Dominion is hilariously arbitrary, which either tells us something about how much their rulers actually buy into the 'divine right'...or it tells us about how the Author is a bit clueless.
 
EDIT: And since I see the reply coming, the Eldans dissapearing isn't actual proof that they succeeded at becoming gods. Additionaly, it was the Eldan sent the message, not Drusera, who is the closest thing to a 'god' in this setting. Indeed, you could claim that the Eldan achieved godhood through her. Except... she seems to be rather neutral about the Dominion's rights over the galaxy, doesn't she? She has no preference over them and doesn't hate those who oppose it.
 
It's kind of a big blow to your 'divine right' when not even your own god gives a flip about supporting that right.
			
				
	Edited January 2, 2016 by Ildur	
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Following the orders of your gods doesn't bother me all that much in settings where the gods clearly exist and compete and attract followers. Happens all the time in high fantasy settings. 
 
This is not one of those cases. The gods are not at the top of the Dominion, the Luminai--and possibly also the Mechari--are. And neither of them have any legitimate claim to divinity at all, even though their religion and society are explicitly built around that falsehood.
 
Even setting all that aside, you don't need to grow up in a democracy or be an atheist to recognize the difference between people trying to mind their own business and people trying to force their business on everyone else.
 
It's not exactly some subtle distinction here--and it's pretty obvious that the developers are well aware of it, given the game's imagery, lore, and backstory--to say nothing of the effort that went into rewriting the Dominion tutorial to make them look better without actually being better. Not the approach I would've taken, myself.
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I say 'consistent' because there's no reason for them to not try to conquer Protostar, the Lopp, the Ekose, the Grumpels...and yet they leave them alone while trying to conquer other races.
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			I don't see anything arbitrary about it.  There are worlds competing to be a part of the Dominion and there are worlds that get turned down.  Nothing in the lore says the Dominion is actively trying to conquer all worlds.  They are trying to rule the galaxy.  The way the U.N. and the major developed nations are trying to set the rules for the world.   There is an important distinction here.  Politics and depth are the RL reasons for nations to not have one overarching rule for dealing with everybody else in one cookie cutter fashion.  One overall rule to define everybody would simply lack depth.  As it is now, it is more believable that politics and economics plays a significant role.	
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There are worlds competing to be a part of the Dominion and there are worlds that get turned down.  
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The only conclusion that can be pulled from threads like these, is that dominion needs way better writing.
 
There is quite a difference between the way they should look/ how the devs think they look, and what is actually in game.
 
But yeah just merge the factions.	
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To be fair, Protostar (being the biggest and most successful company in the galaxy) could probably hurt the Dominion economically. They'd still lose in the end due to not being a military superpower, but the threat might be enough that Dominion higher-ups think it's not worth the effort. The Ekose might be able to do something similar with their high representation in the galaxy's shipping network.
 
Point on the Lopp and the Grumpel, though.
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I have a better question.
 
What's wrong with the Dominion being the "eviler" faction? Yes they are militaristic, facist, and more than a little heavyhanded, judgmental, and believe very, very, very, very much in their divine right to rule the galaxy. And you know what? It makes it a very interesting faction to roleplay in. And also one where it's interesting to see how "normal" people and "good" people cope or handle themselves in an environment that, by our modern standards, is quite evil. What standards to they run by? What are their moral quandaries? Do they focus on the good parts of the Dominion? What do they see that is good about it? Do they ever question their devotion? For what reasons? etc etc etc.
 
And at the end of the day. ITS A GAME. So what if your sides the bad side? You can play the bad side all you want, no one cares. This is all make believe.
 
So really, who gives a crap who's "more evil" or "more good"? Does it even matter?	
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I have a better question.
What's wrong with the Dominion being the "eviler" faction?
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The position "the heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascists stomping everyone else into submission aren't the darker side of grey at all!"  is about defending heavy-handed, judgmental, militaristic fascism.
 
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Tired of the whole Dominion vs Exiles thing. Just merge the damn factions already. It's easy, just say the Mechari Millennials imprisoned Myracalus and were responsible for all the atrocities the Dominion did. Have the player character rescue him and he forms a truce with the Exiles. Done.
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			They could squeeze a questline involving Chua disidents (ala Thorns of Arboria) that need to be dealt with before they convince other Chuas off-planet to follow their example to break away from the Dominion.	
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They could squeeze a questline involving Chua disidents (ala Thorns of Arboria) that need to be dealt with before they convince other Chuas off-planet to follow their example to break away from the Dominion.
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I have a better question.
 
What's wrong with the Dominion being the "eviler" faction?
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I am heavily in favor of Exiles because I do enjoy what is essentially the good guys, so playing through Dominion I got that odd 'I'm being an evil jerk' feeling all the way through.
 
What drew the line for me was Deadrock Prison. I had so much "fun" putting an explosive collar on some poor prisoner then explode his head off as he tried to run.
 
I think Star Wars has this going for it in terms of the factions: there is a certain awesome:evil ratio you need to fulfill in order to make evil appealing. The Sith are badass, they look amazing, their entire theme and feel is amazing. Even then, the Dark side isn't 'truly' evil - they thrive on emotion, and while that's usually anger and hatred, that can also mean love and happiness. Jedi are pretty boring (imo) so you get good awesome:evil ratio in the Sith Empire. They're badass enough (compared to the other side) to pull off evil without being off-putting.
 
I also like evil for a reason. Every step for the Empire seemed like political squabbles or power plays. There was intrigue. I don't get that same kind of vibe from the Dominion. They're evil because they can be. They pick on races they think will not even pose a threat, because they feel like it. To an extent that is obviously not true - it's made abundantly clear that the Luminai play the game of politics and backstabbing apparently. But they're so above and barely featured it winds up not really mattering.	
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PS: I like the new Dominion Arkship tutorial. I took screenshots and everything to try and argue that there was a spy on board (which I feel were mostly disregarded by everyone except Dominion sympathizers). So now I can be all crazy and say "MWAHAHAHAHA I WAS RIGHT!"
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I forgot because it's been a while, but does Mondo try to cure the brainwashed people by zapping them with electricity, fire and mutagens? In groups of three to five? Because even with the brainwashing going on, that doesn't seem to be a particularly moral way of performing a medical experiment or cure.
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I forgot because it's been a while, but does Mondo try to cure the brainwashed people by zapping them with electricity, fire and mutagens? In groups of three to five? Because even with the brainwashing going on, that doesn't seem to be a particularly moral way of performing a medical experiment or cure.
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I also like evil for a reason. Every step for the Empire seemed like political squabbles or power plays. There was intrigue. I don't get that same kind of vibe from the Dominion. They're evil because they can be. They pick on races they think will not even pose a threat, because they feel like it. To an extent that is obviously not true - it's made abundantly clear that the Luminai play the game of politics and backstabbing apparently. But they're so above and barely featured it winds up not really mattering.
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You forgot to mention the ones that aren't competing to be a part of the Dominion and get invaded--like Gnox, Mikros, and Arboria.
I bring this up because none of us have any objection to the Dominion picking and choosing which worlds get to join, among those that actively seek to join the Dominion. Those worlds aren't the issue. 
The ones that are problematic are the planets that were minding their own business when the Dominion came by and invited them to join, surrender, or die.
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I didn't actually forget about those planets. I didn't mention them because they are ever present and they don't speak to the point one way or another. My point was that the picture being painted is that they are out to conquer everybody. Sen by comments about how inconsistant they are about conquering everybody. So, my response is that they are inconsistent about that goal because it is not actually the goal.
 
Not sure if you are intentionally ignoring the purpose of the comparison of if you just didn't follow. So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The entire purpose of my point was not to say the U.N. is an empire the way we know the Dominion is an empire. (Clearly it's not) It was to demonstrate that the empires goal is explicitly not to conqure any and all planets and peoples. As demonstrated by the peoples that it turns down.
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FWIW, I agree with you that the Dominion's rationale about who they approach with the Join, Surrender, or Die paradigm is more sensible than it was initially given credit for in this thread. Planets that wouldn't be an asset and are too weak to be a threat are simply not worth the effort.
 
Nevertheless, the goal is to impose their will on the entire galaxy. The only reason they don't bother with some worlds is that they have the ability to do so at their own convenience, should those worlds eventually have something that they want enough to make it worth their while to come in and get it.
 
How that relates to the UN in any meaningful way is still beyond me.
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			I've always been pro-dominion...simply because Drakens. They almost lost me at Chuas but Drakens make up for the fluffy psychotic gerbils.	
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I've always been pro-dominion...simply because Drakens. They almost lost me at Chuas but Drakens make up for the fluffy psychotic gerbils.
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			Chua were a big turn off for me until I saw just how psycho they are.  So, chua are win.  Then you add giant sentient Terminators and Predators on the same team and yeah, Dominion all the way.  Though, Granok and Mordesh do sing their sirens call.	
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I have always been a firm Dominion supporter since launch (I was a mordesh in Beta) and reading all the lore for dominion really softened the faction up for me. They aren't "evil" as much as the exiles are. I feel like the dominion are really misrepresented.
 
Exiles get way more screentime and love (recent space chase event was all exile themed stuff... adverts are always exile themed, everything is always exile themed)
 
Both factions have absolutely abhorrent characters in them, both factions have great heroes. Both factions have committed atrocities to innocents and to each other. I hate the argument that the dominion are evil... it's so wrong.
 
I'm a huge mordesh fan tho, who doesn't love them?	
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I like how you don't actually provide any actual argument about why the Dominion isn't evil. You have a right to have your opinion, of course, but if you don't back it up with something, nobody else has any reason to take it seriously.
Have never seen the prison in Whitevale? Remember strapping bomb collars on your prisoners and making them go off when they tried to run away? That's the sign of such a benevolent state, truly.
 
It's true that the game's publicity material is rather Exile themed. Though that should probably hint you at who Carbine thinks will be more pallatable to the public. The Dominion's evil (whatever that might be) isn't off-set by their cool factor. Unlike Exiles. Who have pretty much all the interesting and good looking races of the game, along with the 'underdog' factor and better justifications for being evil. "We are trying to survive against a galactic Empire set on destroying us" vs "Our gods told us we have the RIGHT to rule everything".	
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It would be pointless to provide an argument to someone who won't be swayed by ANY argument, this has been beaten to death and beyond into the afterlife in the lore forum and I didn't even step in there to make an argument. There has been hundreds of arguments both FOR and AGAINST both the dominion and the exiles.
 
All I have to say is that it's not the dominion itself that is inherently EVIL, it's the individuals that make decisions based on their own morals that make it seem evil.
 
Same for the exiles, I don't recall what the exiles do to their dominion prisoners to be very nice. I don't recall releasing a plague into the dominion lowborns (who haven't even done ANYTHING) to be very nice either. The glassing of aboria also wasn't very nice. Who made these calls? Was it individuals who just happened to be affiliated with a specific faction, or do those singular people represent the thoughts and opinions of the entirety of a faction too?
 
There was nothing in my post that even brought forward this stupid argument. You jumped on my ass because I said that I think the dominion aren't evil.
 
Guess I wont have an opinion if I'm going to be spoken to as such, I was just replying to the thread with my own thoughts.	
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I like how you don't actually provide any actual argument about why the Dominion isn't evil. You have a right to have your opinion, of course, but if you don't back it up with something, nobody else has any reason to take it seriously.
Have never seen the prison in Whitevale? Remember strapping bomb collars on your prisoners and making them go off when they tried to run away? That's the sign of such a benevolent state, truly.
 
It's true that the game's publicity material is rather Exile themed. Though that should probably hint you at who Carbine thinks will be more pallatable to the public. The Dominion's evil (whatever that might be) isn't off-set by their cool factor. Unlike Exiles. Who have pretty much all the interesting and good looking races of the game, along with the 'underdog' factor and better justifications for being evil. "We are trying to survive against a galactic Empire set on destroying us" vs "Our gods told us we have the RIGHT to rule everything".
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All I have to say is that it's not the dominion itself that is inherently EVIL, it's the individuals that make decisions based on their own morals that make it seem evil.
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Guess I wont have an opinion if I'm going to be spoken to as such, I was just replying to the thread with my own thoughts.
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My opinion is just that, I don't see how I'm throwing a tantrum when as soon as I point out my thoughts that I think there are evil people who do horrible things in the exile side, I get jumped on like I'm dissing the entire faction.
 
Have fun with your exile circle jerk.	
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I imagine anything Sylqt could bring up has already been bought up in the Lore section of the forums. And even if they bring up a valid point, Exile sympathizers (both factions have sympathizers, I bought up Dominion sympathizers in a previous post as well) will simply focus on something else and it will essentially boil down to "Dominion is still more evil, so any bad things the Exiles do are permissible."
 
And it makes me sad because I'd love to bring up some stuff that came out of Loremageddon, but I just can't bear dealing with the shifting goal posts anymore.	
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I like how you don't actually provide any actual argument about why the Dominion isn't evil. You have a right to have your opinion, of course, but if you don't back it up with something, nobody else has any reason to take it seriously.
Have never seen the prison in Whitevale? Remember strapping bomb collars on your prisoners and making them go off when they tried to run away? That's the sign of such a benevolent state, truly.
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And even if they bring up a valid point, Exile sympathizers (both factions have sympathizers, I bought up Dominion sympathizers in a previous post as well) will simply focus on something else and it will essentially boil down to "Dominion is still more evil, so any bad things the Exiles do are permissible."
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Oh look, Ad Hominem from Ildur... I'm so surprised. To Dharnell's credit he tries to stay on topic.
 
I agree though, this is quite silly. The Dominion and Exiles are just as good and bad as eachother, confirmed by HernCO and Pappy on multiple occasions (see HernCO's Reddit lore drop I quoted earlier).
 
The Aurin were not clueless. Myala as a character is Naive and clueless, she may not have seen the danger, but Arwick did, and so did other Aurin. As shown by the TFBTF issue, Myala and Arwick also placed at least some of the blame on the Exiles for their problems with the Dominion.
 
I agree completely with Jell, Pheydra has her own way of dealing with things (which usually involves threats of extermination), but the Eldan had no such plans and would not suffer such a thing at the hands of their servants. The Eldan were nothing if not pragmatic, and genocide served no purpose. This is furter shown by the "ultimatum"  given by Dominus to the Cassians when he returns to Cassius, which does not have the same 'flair' as Pheydra's.
 
Just a few notes about Ildur's comments. There was ALWAYS an Exile saboteur on the Dominion Arkship. The Aurin have always raised, slaughtered, and eaten sentient, sapient, thinking, feeling organisms, the Exile humans had always conducted mass terrorist attacks during Brightland's rebellion on innocent Dominion citizens, The Mordesh were always responsible for creating the 2nd worst pathogen in the galaxy etc, etc, etc. They have ALWAYS been just as bad / good as the Dominion.
 
And I don't draw parallels to how WE act to "cause an emotional reaction", I do it to show the REAL themes and tropes the writers are weaving into the narrative, and how asinine it is to consider a faction that does not do anything worse then our own nation has or does as "evil". My comments are never based in drawing out emotional reactions, they are to provoke honest and serious thought.
 
Again, because it's still lost on so many:
 
"The main conflict in the game is between the Dominion, who believe their gods (the Eldan) granted them the galaxy to rule in the name of peace, law, and justice; and the Exiles, who have banded together to oppose them - or just survive. The Dominion isn't inherently evil and the Exiles aren't inherently good, they just have opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe, and they feel very strongly about it." - CRB HernCO
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But usually, the question people want to discuss is "which side is better and which side is worse?"
So it's usually about which side does more, worse things for less justifiable reasons. I don't see how that's a shift in the goalposts at all.
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"Just because you wrote it, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what it's about?"
 
The fact that the Author of a work says something about that work, doesn't make what he said necesarilly true. True in the sense that it actually matches the reality of the fiction. So when Pappy or HernCO or whichever of the writers say anything about the morality of the factions, what they are telling us is what their intentions were and not what they actually did. If they are right or wrong has nothing to do with their authorship. 
 
Also allow me to casually point out that the writers don't hold any authority in matter of morality and so what we get from them is their opinion. In other words: their thoughts about the Exiles or the Dominion being the good guys or the bad guys in whatever order you prefer, don't hold any more water than the thoughts of Nazryn, Bytek, Yasfan, Sylqt or me. At best you can say they are indicative of what they intended to portray as far as morality goes in the Wildstar universe, but it is not indicative of what they actually achieved.
Let's illustrate it like this: I could tell you that this post I'm authoring right here REALLY is all about cakes and desserts. I don't think you'd have any problem understanding that what I'm saying is not the actual reality of the post, despite me being its author.
 
At the end of the day, I think it's pretty clear that the one thing that we need is for Carbine to decide once and for all what they want the conflict between the factions to be: either 'bad guys vs good guys' (or "worse guys vs better guys", if you want) as the publicitary material and the lore suggests, or it's about opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe from sides that aren't inherently evil or good'" as HernCO and the Dominion Arkship Tutorial try to suggest.	
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This is the problem. When certain posters only ever want to discuss that. Even when others have no intention of discussing it. So they work real hard impose that agenda.
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Take Sylqt's post #59 for example. Nothing in it to indicate a desire to discuss which side is better and which side is worse. But we see how that played out.
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But usually, the question people want to discuss is "which side is better and which side is worse?"
So it's usually about which side does more, worse things for less justifiable reasons. I don't see how that's a shift in the goalposts at all.
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"Just because you wrote it, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what it's about?"
 
The fact that the Author of a work says something about that work, doesn't make what he said necesarilly true. True in the sense that it actually matches the reality of the fiction. So when Pappy or HernCO or whichever of the writers say anything about the morality of the factions, what they are telling us is what their intentions were and not what they actually did. If they are right or wrong has nothing to do with their authorship. 
 
Also allow me to casually point out that the writers don't hold any authority in matter of morality and so what we get from them is their opinion. In other words: their thoughts about the Exiles or the Dominion being the good guys or the bad guys in whatever order you prefer, don't hold any more water than the thoughts of Nazryn, Bytek, Yasfan, Sylqt or me. At best you can say they are indicative of what they intended to portray as far as morality goes in the Wildstar universe, but it is not indicative of what they actually achieved.
Let's illustrate it like this: I could tell you that this post I'm authoring right here REALLY is all about cakes and desserts. I don't think you'd have any problem understanding that what I'm saying is not the actual reality of the post, despite me being its author.
 
At the end of the day, I think it's pretty clear that the one thing that we need is for Carbine to decide once and for all what they want the conflict between the factions to be: either 'bad guys vs good guys' (or "worse guys vs better guys", if you want) as the publicitary material and the lore suggests, or it's about opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe from sides that aren't inherently evil or good'" as HernCO and the Dominion Arkship Tutorial try to suggest.
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