Report 215

Report #215
Skillset: Night Skill: Gloomtide
 Org: Tahtetso Status: Completed Jun 2009
Furies' Decision:
Change cost to 3 shadows. Will consider a command to enemy multiple people at a
time.
Problem: Gloomtide is a skill that allows a coven of 5 or more to stealthily
clear enemy lists with a 3-4 second equilibrium loss. There is no power cost
associated with this ability, allowing the coven leader to spam this ability at
the expense of mobility. It can be spammed to nullify many player abilities,
notably demesnes which fire on 10s intervals. Players affected by Gloomtide,
must also enter in several lines (possibly 20+) to re-enemy players. Even if you
gag and use an alias, it is essentially a second delay or more to re-enemy
depending on latency.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Add a minor power cost (2p) to cast to encourage the
 skill to be used more strategically instead of being
 spammed
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #2: Add a cost of 5 shadows to cast to also encourage the
 skill to not be spammed and used more strategically
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #3: Allow players to enemy multiple players with one
 command as opposed to separate instances.
Player Comments:
---[Xenthos on 6/16 @ 01:55 writes]:
What's with solution one? I thought we had already agreed that the issue was
the spam. Or do you really want to do that entire discussion again in comments?
---[Nienla on 6/16 @ 02:09 writes]:
An unnescessary change considering the ability is countered by a simple alias,
as Malicia as proven upon the forums. I highly disagree with solution #1, and
most of the solutions to be perfectly truthful. If re-enemying people can cost
eq, I'd have zero issue with Solution #3. However, it is already easily
countered by 'enemy person' which requires zero balance, and uses zero balance.
This is unnescessary.
---[Sidd on 6/16 @ 02:15 writes]:
I thought this had been discussed, Gloomtide is simply countered by an enemy
alias that enemies everyone again, I am in support of Solution 3 as spam could
be lessened with it, but having any power cost or shadow cost to be countered by
the push of a button or a short alias is too much. I am in favor of reducing
spam, but not making it cost power
---[Xenthos on 6/16 @ 02:19 writes]:
Gloomtide has an extremely simple counter. The only issue is that this counter
causes a lot of spam to the user, which (depending on the client) can be a fair
bit of lag. We had a relatively long discussion about it on envoys the other
day, where the end result was that "fixing the spam / lag issue" was all that
was required. Putting a power limiter in an already power-heavy skillset for
something that is EASILY countered without any delay or requirement (this is one
of the easiest scripts to write, really!) is awful. Same with putting a 2.5-5p
cost on it in terms of shadows (since they are required for a lot of other
things as well). It is a skill that is easy to use and has a very easy counter.
The only issue here is the spam, which we had already agreed upon was the issue
and which Jozan already accepted as the answer to his problem in our discussion.
---[Viynain on 6/16 @ 05:51 writes]:
As above, I'm in support of the third solution to eliminate the ungodly amounts
of spam resulting from the alias necessitated by this skill. Having 50 lines of
spam to enable the offense which I need as a bard against a group of Night-users
is painful, and I'd much rather go for a single means of fixing this problem by
being able to either do MASSENEMY <person> <person>, etc or something.
---[Alban on 6/16 @ 13:16 writes]:
I'm not sure what client you guys are using, but gagging that many lines is
still going to produce lag, probably worse than just letting the spam hit the
screen. Solution number 3 sounds great.
---[Llandros on 6/16 @ 14:23 writes]:
Gloomtide should absolutely be looked at, I think addressing the cure would be
better than nerfing the skill, but it's unreasonable to assert that having to an
to run such a large and spammy alias before i make any attack that targets
enemies is insignificant.
---[Nienla on 6/16 @ 16:51 writes]:
Right. I think it's pretty much concurrence that the ability doesn't need to be
nerfed, but rather the mass spam that gets involved with it. I'm in support of
Viynain's MASSENEMY function, as well as a MASSALLY function. Both of which
should be made forcible.
---[Sarrasri on 6/16 @ 16:54 writes]:
I don't agree with making it have a power cost, but solution 2 or 3 seems
reasonable to me. Maybe not 5 shadows (more about 2), since it -would- add a
small limiter to it, but 2 shadows isn't a lot, especially with the Nightalter
up. Solution 3 would be good to implement either way, since Gloomtide isn't the
only way to get rid of enemies en masse.
---[Viynain on 6/16 @ 16:57 writes]:
Oh, I forgot - it doesn't take shadows currently either, does it? The
application of solution two alongside of three would make sense to me,
considering shadows kinda are integral to the whole Night skillset. 5 or 2 as
Sarrasri said, either is fine.
---[Nienla on 6/16 @ 23:36 writes]:
Solution 2 is asking a bit much, considering the fact that Night is already a
power heavy skill set. I'm supportive of 3, but giving Gloomtide a shadow cost
is the same as giving it a power cost
---[Sarrasri on 6/17 @ 07:22 writes]:
Regardless of how easy the counter to gloomtide is, it is a powerful skill that
pretty much has no cost beyond one person's equilibrium. Shadows are something
you gather beforehand, not in a fight, so their use is better than actual power
in terms of convenience. You could argue that all it takes is an alias to
counter, but why should you be able to use Gloomtide without worry of losing
anything beyond some eq, when you're essentially screwing the offense of
specific classes repeatedly.
---[Nienla on 6/17 @ 15:30 writes]:
You are aware that Covens are also fragile? Targetting the Coven leader if
you're in a group also helps deal with this exponentially, and Magnagora has no
issue with doing this. You also underestimate how long Gloomtide's eq recovery
is. It's long enough to honestly instakill someone in the midst of group
fighting.
---[Llandros on 6/17 @ 17:11 writes]:
I'm ok with considering the fragility of covens as long as the coven leader is
required to identify themselves before combat begins, barring that, I support
solution 3 with adding a minor shadow cost to gloomtide
---[Xenthos on 6/18 @ 00:28 writes]:
There really is no need for a shadow limiter if the issue with spam is removed.
Gloomtide is fine as a skill, the *only* issue with the repeated-use-aspect is
that those working against it have to "spam" themselves. Remove the self-spam,
and it's extremely simple to counter-- and costs even less than the EQ and coven
requirement. There is no EQ cost to enemy someone.
---[Nejii on 6/19 @ 04:46 writes]:
"it is essentially a second delay or more to re-enemy depending on
latency"...well, yes, but it takes 4 eq to use and the coven then can't move
into your demesne or whatever such that it could possibly be relevant. We had
this skill when it cost power, and it STUNK. 3 is the least counterproductive of
these suggestions.
---[Shamarah on 6/20 @ 18:37 writes]:
I like solution 3. I don't think the others are necessary.
---[Ceren on 6/22 @ 23:49 writes]:
Looks like everyone likes solution threeeeeeee. Me too.
---[Llandros on 6/23 @ 16:52 writes]:
Also, gloomtide should have the same restrictions as a Terror Coven or at least
change it to only area or contenent wide, that it works accross planes and on
people who are offline is overkill
---[Xenthos on 6/23 @ 20:51 writes]:
It already is only continent-wide...
---[Sidd on 6/27 @ 04:45 writes]:
I like solution 3
---[Ceren on 6/29 @ 19:59 writes]:
Actually, pretty sure it is cross-continent. Test it.
---[Xenthos on 6/29 @ 22:42 writes]:
Hm. Previous testing by Sojiro had been continent-only, but it's definitely not
so restricted now. I don't think it's really a huge issue either way (the "re-
enemy your enemies list" thing works the same...). The real issue is still #3,
the solution to spam.