Report 508

Report #508
Skillset: Skill: MonkSpeed
 Org: Ninjakari Status: Completed Nov 2010
Furies' Decision:
Monk speed formula adjusted.
Problem: Monks can achieve high speeds beyond that of other classes. When
choosing races with balance/weapon stat buffs or using knight runes, monks have
been known to break the 2 second mark (albeit only once). On the average,
however, I think that most high-speed monks average anywhere from 2.2 to 2.4
seconds baring special circumstances such as hyperactive. Monks, with their
speed outclass other archetypes in their potential ability to achieve high DPS
and affliction rates, need to be brought more in line without hurting those
monks that have a much more palatable balance time.
[A: 0 R: 0] Solution #1: Place a balance time cap of 2.4 seconds on all monk
 actions. Doing so does not negatively impact the slow
 monks while reducing the effective speeds of those
 that are simply too fast. This cap should only apply
 to the kata-specific skillsets and not be affected by
 such things as hyperactive or shrine effects.
Player Comments:
---[Fillin on 11/23 @ 05:36 writes]:
I feel a 3 second cap on kata forms is more meaningful (though individual kata
moves should be allowed to go faster so there's a thematic reason for the cap).
Will also increase the importance of damage/precision on monk weapons.
---[Fillin on 11/23 @ 07:47 writes]:
Well there was a couple of things I didn't think of. Namely, grapple finishers
and the speed mod becoming meaningless. If the admin are willing to do a more
sweeping change here, cap forms at 3s, but allow the speed mod to push it
further past that. Furthermore, increase grapple writhe time to over 3 seconds,
something like 3.5. If not, 2.4s cap is a step in the right direction.
---[Sahmiam on 11/23 @ 19:24 writes]:
Additionally, Fillin, it would reduce or eliminate all direct benefits from
races with a balance bonus and high speed weapons(not that this is a bad thing,
but I suspect that some might temper weapons to the lowest speed). I personally
don't see a problem with a 3 second cap except that I think the scope of such a
change goes beyond what can be reasonably expected from an envoy report. Grapple
writhe time, speed modifier, weapon speed, grapples themselves, etc.
---[Janalon on 11/25 @ 02:39 writes]:
There are several contributing factors to monk speed: racial bonuses, weapon
speed stat (including stat mod great runes), acrobatics hyperactive, following
the third form in a kata performance, and the kata speed mod. Placing a hard cap
on speed is an oversimplified solution to a complex problem. I fear this
worthwhile end will not have admin-appeal therefore, I suggest narrowing the
focus of this report on a singular contributing factor. Monk mods all have
associated costs or drawbacks (ex. lunge: power, soft: damage, hard: wounding,
etc). Even warrior knighthood combat style follows a similar logic (ex.
defensive: offensive, aggressive: wounding, concentrated: wounding). Whereas
combat style decreases damage, kata speed has no drawback. Additionally low ka
cost ensures the mod can be used at 1 momentum on upward. One possible solution
would be to raise kata speed ka weight from 100 to 150-- this should prohibit
use in 1 and 2 momentum forms. A second solution would be to decrease accuracy
(by a suggested 20%) with the caveat that kata steelgrip mod will ensure a
grapple. This method cuts back on monk speed, and ensure grapple enders are
feasible for all races.
---[Janalon on 11/25 @ 12:41 writes]:
Err, meant to say "Whereas combat style LIGHTNING decreases damage... " Meant to
compare lightning style to speed mod. The omission of this word greatly alters
how one might read my comments.
---[Sahmiam on 11/26 @ 01:01 writes]:
I think it's better to stay away from RNG with the decreased accuracy (it's one
of the top complaints about warriors and some monk afflictions already have it--
I'd rather see more reqs on afflictions rather than a hard 20% decrease in
accuracy). I'm assuming that would be in addition to parrying, stancing,
dodging, misses, etc., so again, RNG isn't good. Raising the ka cost on speed
will have no effect on reducing overall monk speed. It might slow momentum
building or wound building, but it won't prevent the mo4+ combos from hitting
you at <2.4s. I don't disagree that it's a complex problem, but as I told
Fillin, the scope of an envoy report is not large enough to fix the complex
problem. Hyperactive should not be used in an argument for monk speed. Yes, it's
there and it's a problem, but it's a problem within itself: we shouldn't balance
around it. I actually think targeting the speed mod directly will either be less
effective than the proposed solutions OR create more problems for monks than we
want
---[Vadi on 11/29 @ 01:06 writes]:
I'm not seeing conclusive proof that capping all of the top abilities at 2.4
will make things a whole lot better. Monks can give several afflictions, do
wound damage, physical damage and strip defences in single combos - already way
more power given at once than any other archetype. So since the average for
skills is 2.2-2.4s as stated in the report... and taking 'Some skills are faster
than others, so if the average skill is 2.4s, the faster skills will be hard
capped.' from the forums - what will be the said new average? Going from 2.2 to
2.4s is only a 9% decrease, from 2.4 to 2.4 isn't a decrease at all (on this
blurry 'average'). Realizing that power comes from speed * afflictions given *
physical damage given, and that a combination of all of those is what makes
monks extremely powerful, nudging only one of those variables by less than 10%
will not have a big effect. In short, more evidence that the proposed solution
will be decent, and that the report would do a part in balancing the class out
in the long term?
---[Sahmiam on 11/29 @ 04:29 writes]:
It will remove all complaints about monks being faster than 2 seconds at the
very least. Jokes aside, it says in the problem that this report is targeted at
high-speed monks, not monks that don't enjoy artifacts and/or racial bonuses. A
"better" fix requires fixing other problems that are outside the scope of this
report, so while we both can agree it's perhaps not the ideal fix, I would say
that it is a substantial nerf to the high-speed monks. Also, assuming that the
data collected is accurate, anyone with a balance of less than 3.2s will
actually be affected by this report as some skills are 25% faster than normal
skills. The intent of this report is to reign-in the outliers in monk speed; it
will accomplish that much. If you want more, support the cause for a special
report for monks. An envoy report addressing damage is in the works, but I'm not
promising that it will be next.