105497-attunement-killed-end-game-original-post-here

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So this is basically a rehash of older posts saying the same thing, but now that the game has been out for 2 months and most people are finished with their silver dungeons and experiencing GA, we can now make a better assessment of what impact the grindy attunement process had on this game.
the problem I've seen for most people isn't that the game is too hard for them, its that they are casual gamers. They log on for a couple hours a week when they are able, and try to play the game. And this process is essentially impossible for them. a lot of the content is essentially unpuggable for these players. They depend too much on the randomness of having guildmates who are online and willing to run the content that they need during the small time frame that they have available to play. You have to be a glutton for punishment if you log on every night to solo queue for skullcano or ssm silver runs.. it just doesn't happen.
If you would have asked me 2 months ago if I would rather have a game that caters to casuals (WoW) or something that offers really challenging content, I would have chosen the latter without a moments hesitation. But Now that I've experienced Wildstar raiding (currently raiding GA) I have to say.. the solution has to be a blend of the two. If not that.. then a better MMO would be one that caters to casuals. At least that way, there is stuff to do and people to game with. 
When I first got attuned, I was so excited to start raiding. Three weeks later.. I have no reason to log on other than for raid nights. At first I tried running dungeons for better gear (or for gear that I have already, but with better slots) but it's obvious that its such a waste of time for a very minor dps increase that I don't even really give a shit about. Raiding it not that hard in this game. It isn't a cake walk.. it isn't a free loot fest.. but it's not so hard that I needed to spend a month grinding out timed runs to do it. The wheel has not been reinvented with wildstar. 
I am absolutely positive that I could have gone into GA after about a week or two of farming/crafting gear and be completely ready to raid GA. and I'm sure most of you could have done the exact same.
Instead.. my server is dead. My guild is almost dead. The economy is dead. Why? Because we have no casuals. Because attunement was a waste of time that did nothing but slow down the rate at which we were able to burn through content.
And now that most people are attuned, they are begining to realize that they have nothing to do in the game other than raid. I don't PVP..and those that do probably completely disagree with me.. but from my perspective.. this game essentially killed itself.
I love the combat, I love the environment.  The bugs are meh.. but w/e.. every game has bugs. The thing that is killing this game is the lack of accessibility. Attunement is not a skill check and 40 man raiding is a waste of time. Maybe one or two guilds per server will make it to 40 man... and it won't be because they were the only ones good enough.. it will be because they are the only ones left	
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			Looking at the complains the biggest issue happens to be dungeons.	
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Is true, dungeons are hard.
Difference between Adventure and Dungeon veterans is night and day.
 
Chua like it, but can understand is turn off for many Humans.
Many many discussions in Dungeons forum on how to change.	
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Yes.
 
The Attunement fell under time consuming and tedious not hardcore, and as such most neglect it as it neglects them.	
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When I first got attuned, I was so excited to start raiding. Three weeks later.. I have no reason to log on other than for raid nights. At first I tried running dungeons for better gear (or for gear that I have already, but with better slots) but it's obvious that its such a waste of time for a very minor dps increase that I don't even really give a shit about. Raiding it not that hard in this game. It isn't a cake walk.. it isn't a free loot fest.. but it's not so hard that I needed to spend a month grinding out timed runs to do it. The wheel has not been reinvented with wildstar. 
I am absolutely positive that I could have gone into GA after about a week or two of farming/crafting gear and be completely ready to raid GA. and I'm sure most of you could have done the exact same.
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I'm kinda glad to hear that.  I never really liked min/maxing.  Having to farm the perfect gear was always annoying in past games.  Being able to average things out instead of min/maxing is actually rather appealing.  I like the focus on difficulty and skill.  Its your own skill in reacting to the fight that makes it challenging.  
 
I know some people say the game takes no skill.  Not standing in red boxes is not a skill.  I say the skill is in your reactions.  Like a drag racer honing their reaction time to the red/yellow/green lights.  Everyone knows to stay out of the red boxes.  Its how quickly you get out of it that matters and where you go.
 
 
Challenges are appealing. Victory is so much sweeter.
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Dungeons are not hard at all, you just need to stun the bosses.
 
The mechanics are not punishing or hard, but if you dont kick the boss if you should you die, its simple.
 
Stormtalon
First Boss:
First Phase stun the Aoe or dodge (easy)
Second Phase bring the Aoe from Boss on adds and nuke (easy)
Third Phase, stun or dodge the slow telegrave (easy)
 
Second Boss
Dodge red Stuff (easy)
Kill adds and drop the aoe near the walls (easy)
Dodge Lighting and Whirlwinds and stun boss (medium)
repeat ( easy)
 
Third Boss
First Phase, move around deal damage and wait for knockback after that stun the boss (max 2 times) (easy)
Last Phase wait for someone to get hit by eye of the storm run around with him ( easy)
 
Yeah you finished the first dungeon...
 
We could repeat that for every dungeon but im a bit to lazy for that sorry.	
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Dungeons are not hard at all, you just need to stun the bosses.
 
The mechanics are not punishing or hard, but if you dont kick the boss if you should you die, its simple.
 
Stormtalon
First Boss:
First Phase stun the Aoe or dodge (easy)
Second Phase bring the Aoe from Boss on adds and nuke (easy)
Third Phase, stun or dodge the slow telegrave (easy)
 
Second Boss
Dodge red Stuff (easy)
Kill adds and drop the aoe near the walls (easy)
Dodge Lighting and Whirlwinds and stun boss (medium)
repeat ( easy)
 
Third Boss
First Phase, move around deal damage and wait for knockback after that stun the boss (max 2 times) (easy)
Last Phase wait for someone to get hit by eye of the storm run around with him ( easy)
 
Yeah you finished the first dungeon...
 
We could repeat that for every dungeon but im a bit to lazy for that sorry.
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			Looks like getting silver dungeons is pretty much the reason why so many casuals quit the game. Looking at drop 4 they are attempting to fix it.	
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I believe the problem they ran into was appealing to what people said they wanted, instead of what they actually want. Theres a man named Malcolm Gladwell, a journalist, author and speaker, who has an example using coffee. When asking consumers what they want, the majority of people said that they want a "Rich, dark roast" of coffee. It sounds good, does it not? Yet in actuality, only 25-27% of people actually like, and drink a rich dark roast. Most people like a weak, milky coffee yet they won't just come out and say that if asked.
 
Its the same thing with this, I believe. Many people said they wanted an old style, difficult game like original WoW, pre WotLK WoW. They enjoyed the corpse runs, the lost EXP, it built community! It built achievement! Being attuned to a raid was hard work, it was a badge of honor that you could even go to fight Ragnaros or whoever, to say nothing of gear and all that. Yet when a game was made to directly appeal to those people, who flooded all the forums, and MMO chats with how it was better "in vanilla WoW"...it fell flat. Wildstar may still be able to do fine, but its critical, mass appeal has taken a huge, huge hit, because like the coffee example, despite so many people saying they want an old school, challenging, vanilla WoW experience...only 25-27% actually like it, while many others prefer the weak, milky coffee. (Not that Wildstar will have only a 25-27% retention rate, just using the previous examples number)	
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Looks like getting silver dungeons is pretty much the reason why so many casuals quit the game. Looking at drop 4 they are attempting to fix it.
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Looks like getting silver dungeons is pretty much the reason why so many casuals quit the game. Looking at drop 4 they are attempting to fix it.
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Dungeons are not hard at all, you just need to stun the bosses.
 
 
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we're only on drop 2...whats in drop 4?
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As a casual, like beeing someone who has limited time to play videogames, i can tell you i freaking love it. Imo its beeing done like its supposed to be. You shouldnt be able to pug veteran dungeons, like you wouldnt be able to pug a match against a good team in a fps. I dont think those dungeons are easy like you want to make em look, maybe with certain gear its easier but still it requires 5 ppl to focus and dont do any mistake for 45 minutes, communicate well and know your class. I only play the dungeons for the challenge and ofc get super excited when something worthwile drops. Dont get me wrong, i dont like the rng and the current itemization but i really dig the gameplay and the encounters.
 
Most ppl are attuned for raids? Really? I would assume maybe 5% of the players are and thats a very optimistic guess. I am playing on EU and its really just a fraction of players that are trying to beat the veteran dungeons at this time.
 
What exactly are you complaining about. What were you doing in other games, when you achieved almost everything, and are just raiding for the better gear? Afaik nobody has beaten the 40man yet. Isnt every mmo at this point "only" grinding supplies for raid and then raid? Why are  40 mans a waste of time, with that logic every videogame is a waste of time!
 
Anyway, i agree that the attunement might be to hard to overcome for ppl without guilds or friends to play with but still i really love the concept of it in general. Time will tell how succesfull this game will be in the future but i personally think it will find its place and grow strong.
 
Cheers	
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			Dont understand.. if a player cant do the attunement, it means he will certainly not be able to raid.	
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Dont understand.. if a player cant do the attunement, it means he will certainly not be able to raid.
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Chua partialy agree.
But statement only true, if raids have similar mechanics as dungeon. 
When raids use different mechanics or criteria, then attunement false sense of attuning.
 
Chua need more science to find out.
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			Problem is there aren't any timers in raids from what I heard.	
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From my experience end-game problems with the attunement have nothing to do with casuals. You won't get a casual player for your guild with or without attunement if said player can't be present for your raids because he can only log in a couple of nights each week. Sure, the lack of casual friendly content can also be a problem, but has nothing to do with the attunement.
 
The real problem with the attunement is for the middle ground raiding guilds that often have problems getting enough people or have a wide variety of skill in their ranks. Those guilds face constantly the struggle to get enough people through the different steps required just to be able to set foot in their desired activity: raids. Is in that struggle to get enough people ready to raid that the game is bleeding... those guilds usually need to repeat many times content and many times some of their players choose to leave the game rather than jump the hoops again, and those are potential raiders, potentian long-term players leaving the game. The game needs those players, the whole raiding community needs them, but the game doesn't give them what they want.
 
And what do they want? they simply want to raid, is really that easy. Raiding shouln't be a goal, just something you choose to do. Beating the raid should be the goal. The attunement should be a sideline quest, something else to do that can work as a preparation for the players who might need it, but never a requirement to be able to step inside the raid. Let the players spend their time playing what they want, not playing what they feel forced to, maybe is not too late.	
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			I find raiding to be overall easier than silver dungeons in the sense that they are more forgiving when one person fails at something. And if multiple people fail at it, then it's a learning experience ofr the raid. Plus like goff said, you aren't against the timer.	
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Thats a pretty bold statement to make after you've run all the dungeons over and over. They are absolutely hard and become easier when you've done them over and over again. At this point, most people have done the content so many times that they have it memorized. That's why you can get gold stl in a group finder pug. Eventually SSM will become the same.. everyone will just know it back and forth and you will find group finder groups that can do it without voice comms.. but till then.. the game is not accessible to casuals trying to get attuned
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Adventures = 2 hard rating
 
Dungeons = 5 hard rating
 
Dungeon silvers = 8 hard rating
 
Raid 20 man = 9.5 hard rating
 
Raid 40 man = 10 hard rating
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			Problem is not all players have voice chat, which is annoying.	
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As a casual, like beeing someone who has limited time to play videogames, i can tell you i freaking love it. Imo its beeing done like its supposed to be. You shouldnt be able to pug veteran dungeons, like you wouldnt be able to pug a match against a good team in a fps. I dont think those dungeons are easy like you want to make em look, maybe with certain gear its easier but still it requires 5 ppl to focus and dont do any mistake for 45 minutes, communicate well and know your class. I only play the dungeons for the challenge and ofc get super excited when something worthwile drops. Dont get me wrong, i dont like the rng and the current itemization but i really dig the gameplay and the encounters.
 
Most ppl are attuned for raids? Really? I would assume maybe 5% of the players are and thats a very optimistic guess. I am playing on EU and its really just a fraction of players that are trying to beat the veteran dungeons at this time.
 
What exactly are you complaining about. What were you doing in other games, when you achieved almost everything, and are just raiding for the better gear? Afaik nobody has beaten the 40man yet. Isnt every mmo at this point "only" grinding supplies for raid and then raid? Why are  40 mans a waste of time, with that logic every videogame is a waste of time!
 
Anyway, i agree that the attunement might be to hard to overcome for ppl without guilds or friends to play with but still i really love the concept of it in general. Time will tell how succesfull this game will be in the future but i personally think it will find its place and grow strong.
 
Cheers
 
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Well its too late already i guess. The entire attunement system was a big failure and lot of people already left because of it. The problem is not the difficulty of dungeons, most of them are bugged and have lots of exploits and shortcuts that can be used to make them a walk in the park (GJ Carbine for fixing some of them, you putted those new players in much bigger disadvantage than before).
The problem is that fresh people don't even have any group to do it by themself. And people who already have attunement dont want to touch it ever again, because its so time consuming and unrewarding.	
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It is sadly true.
The game was already hard to play at end-game and people were already complaining and quitting.
Now Carbine even removed the epic items from the adventures. So casual people has really nothing to do than quitting.
I just dont understand why they are killing this awesome game.
Less and less people will play it.
They are aware of it, but they do nothin else than making it more unplayable.	
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First I quoted nailed it. Dungeons NEED to be hard. There needs to be difficult content out there that isn't a raid. Why? Because if there isn't people would whizz through it getting their upgrades instantly. Is that cool? Personally I don't think so.
 
To the guys that are saying "DUNGEONS ARE HARD" then my first question is are you trying to get them silvered so you can raid? If so, run them with your guild. I sincerely doubt you are pugging a raid. If you are not trying to get silver, then enjoy the ride, learn something and make friends. That's what an MMO is about.
 
Anyway, yeah. Just wanted to say that. To the guy quoting the hard rating, that's about fair because if you want to pug difficult dungeons you should be with an organized group. If you just want to complete the content then have at it.
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Of the few raiding guilds left in this game actually doing anything, all of them require you to already be attuned. Think about this before you ;post again, as it is really really hard for people to get attuned in a pug. I personally have literally stopped caring about doing anything outside of adventures after killing the first 2 bosses in the 20 man raid, then having most of my RL friends quit cause the games bugs weren't being fixed, and there was no relaxing yet rewarding content to do.
 
So I basically spend my time farming and vendoring things for mass amount of platinum (Already got a year and 3 months worth of credd) or leveling an alt. There is nothing left for me to do in the game that is fun cause PvP is horrible with how gear is done in that section of the game, and pugging for something to do is out of the question.
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But is partially problem of guilds too then.
Maybe realize requiring attunement is bad, and open up for more people and help them attune.
is what Chua does with guild. Builds better bond between members too.
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From my experience end-game problems with the attunement have nothing to do with casuals. You won't get a casual player for your guild with or without attunement if said player can't be present for your raids because he can only log in a couple of nights each week. Sure, the lack of casual friendly content can also be a problem, but has nothing to do with the attunement.
 
The real problem with the attunement is for the middle ground raiding guilds that often have problems getting enough people or have a wide variety of skill in their ranks. Those guilds face constantly the struggle to get enough people through the different steps required just to be able to set foot in their desired activity: raids. Is in that struggle to get enough people ready to raid that the game is bleeding... those guilds usually need to repeat many times content and many times some of their players choose to leave the game rather than jump the hoops again, and those are potential raiders, potentian long-term players leaving the game. The game needs those players, the whole raiding community needs them, but the game doesn't give them what they want.
 
And what do they want? they simply want to raid, is really that easy. Raiding shouln't be a goal, just something you choose to do. Beating the raid should be the goal. The attunement should be a sideline quest, something else to do that can work as a preparation for the players who might need it, but never a requirement to be able to step inside the raid. Let the players spend their time playing what they want, not playing what they feel forced to, maybe is not too late.
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100% agree with OP, though the funny thing is that I'm a PvPer and that died almost as soon as it started and warplots are nonexistent, so the only thing left to do was finish doing that incredibly boring and pointless attunement process in order to raid and tbh that Raid was just a giant disapointment, you go in with 20 people and get perhaps 3 pieces of equipment drop and they could be pieces that players already have, to me the bosses felt incredibly boring and the only entertaining one for me was X89 which is basically the first boss...lol, the trash mobs at some points tend to be harder than the bosses due to their ridiculous telegraphs that carbine clearly had fun making.
 
Overall it's more than clear that the game has lost a clump of its players, carbine can count me as still being "active" for logging in occasionally but I'm doing 0 gameplay so I sure hope they arn't using "players logging in per day/week" to see what's up, it's by far easy to say the biggest downfall of this game is the non-pugable content due to carbine thinking that "hardcore" aka you must have good players that use a chat program to progress because almost every single stun needs calling and what ever other co-ordination that can't be done over typing. 	
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But is partially problem of guilds too then.
Maybe realize requiring attunement is bad, and open up for more people and help them attune.
is what Chua does with guild. Builds better bond between members too.
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I am not surprised that people are leaving the game. Running dailies over and over and over then dungeons that are impossible to pug over and over and over isn't hardcore. It's boring. Terrible and boring game design. Attunement is an antiquated concept that should never, ever have been a design element in a new game. It's nothing more than an alternative to new content. Raids should open at max level. if you want some form of attunement, use minimum item level or a requirement that you clear veteran dungeons. Right now, the system is horrible and causing people to leave the game. 
 
Quite frankly, this issue has caused me to start turning to other games. It's a shame, because I really like Wildstar.	
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Attunement killed the Raiding Star! ;)
 
(( Sing to the tune of "Video Killed the Radio Star" by the Buggles ("Goggle it" you kids! :P ) ;)	
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I am not surprised that people are leaving the game. Running dailies over and over and over then dungeons that are impossible to pug over and over and over isn't hardcore. It's boring. Terrible and boring game design. Attunement is an antiquated concept that should never, ever have been a design element in a new game. It's nothing more than an alternative to new content. Raids should open at max level. if you want some form of attunement, use minimum item level or a requirement that you clear veteran dungeons. Right now, the system is horrible and causing people to leave the game.
 
Quite frankly, this issue has caused me to start turning to other games. It's a shame, because I really like Wildstar.
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ok i read and wrote this statement over and over and over again and i dont think i'm getting tired to do so. 
 
IF your have no guild to do the dungeons with and need to pug with lfd
 
WHY do you need entrance to the raids and finished attunement
 
BECAUSE you have no guild to raid with in the first place?
 
I just dont get it. If you have a raid guild that actually does raiding you use the first 2-3 raidweeks to tune up and then start raiding. its like the first boss encounters in raids. and from what i see in pug groups of lfd, nearly 80% of the people would even FIND the entrance to GA, because is would require more skill than they have to offer. 
 
also after the recent patch they nerfed dungeons even more. stl is now nearly unfailable. tank can run around with stormtalon the whole fight without getting hit ONCE. 
Eye of the stormface on tank? well then just stand there and facetank it because why the hell not. 
 
kel is finally harder and more challenging.... ok you need a root on your quickbar at 2nd boss because you cant abuse the easy chasephase anymore but well....
 
sc still no fix at endboss for walljump? but they managed to make first boss more fun. he now can totem you while into the stew is active. so you cant get out easy and if it this the healer, well bad luck. rest is relaxing
 
pugging ssm is fun. not because its easy. because you can bet how many people will first try rage quit on first boss, because they are just giving up. and second boss. and third.... never pug ssm ;)
 
the problem of wildstar arent hard dungeons or a hard attunement. its a playerbase that hasnt quite understood, that social skills like guild, teamspeak and helping each other with understanding the mechanics are the biggest contentblocker. do you really want a game like wow, where you can just come online, lfraid a easy easymode of the easymode raid instances with no mechanics at all for lots of epixxxxxx? i would rather delete the game and never look back than doing this cupcakestuff again	
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do you really want a game like wow, where you can just come online, lfraid a easy easymode of the easymode raid instances with no mechanics at all for lots of epixxxxxx? i would rather delete the game and never look back than doing this cupcakestuff again
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yes sir! I can play 2-3 hours in the evening and I would like to do something.
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So I basically spend my time farming and vendoring things for mass amount of platinum (Already got a year and 3 months worth of credd) or leveling an alt.
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Instead.. my server is dead. My guild is almost dead. The economy is dead. Why? Because we have no casuals. Because attunement was a waste of time that did nothing but slow down the rate at which we were able to burn through content.
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I got to level 50 for the second time yesterday and went to the AH and brought most of the BoE items listed on the class forum 'pre-raid BIS' thread.
I now feel like im done with the game, I have very little to gain in terms of item upgrades from adventures, dungeons and daily factions given the randomness of runes and the fact that you can just tunnel the stats you want on crafted items.
 
Im in what I believe to be the biggest guild on my realm (for my faction) and handly anyone is online outside of raid times and of those few who are online none are interested in dungeons or adventures.
 
This leaves me with only 2 dailies hubs and 4 adventures to pug to sustain my interest in the game and unfortunatly its just not enough.	
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If carbine had actually made attunements so that it was to prepare players to do raids, then I wouldn't mind attunements as much.
 
Dungeon quests - kill that boss, do that or that.
 
Grinding rep that can only be grinded by killing dungeon mobs.
 
Every attunement should be related to doing dungeons, attunements are so that you can get into raids, why the heck would I do something that is not related to doing raids, in order to get into raids, that is just stupid.
 
Quests are also much more interesting provided developers can write an interesting enough story.	
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Problem is not all players have voice chat, which is annoying.
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			I agree that attunement is a steep hill to climb, but when you finally complete that silver run, man it feels good. I've rarely felt so satisfied when playing any game before.	
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Dont understand.. if a player cant do the attunement, it means he will certainly not be able to raid.
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I have to agree with this. If there was an in game voice chat system say just between people you are grouped with this would make attunement for casual players and PUG's fesiable, though wouldn't be much good for those without mic's.
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yes sir! I can play 2-3 hours in the evening and I would like to do something.
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It's not the game, it's the players.
 
Attunement simply provides a post-cap progression path that happens to gear you up along the way to be ready for raiding. It has the bonus side effect of getting you and your team better acquainted about working together... as a team.	
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Here's a problem, it depends on where people come down on the attunement.
 
There are some things I agree with.  The artificial cap on elder gems encourages people to log off when they're done.  Heavy RNG on gear and the random stats means people don't see running dungeons as a good way to gear (and they can't get anything to CRAFT awesome gear from it either, which would encourage running the content).  Timers aren't the best metric for medals because it will punish you for stopping to pee, but not for having a DPS you carry through the instance that can't GTFO the red and stresses the healer.  These things should be improved.
 
The game should not be easier, and attunement should not go away.  Veteran dungeons are meant to be for veterans, and should be so hard that a PUG is a toss-up whether you gold or bomb.  You should be looking for a group to do open world raid bosses in (because you'll need a raiding guild).  The attunement gate for large group content should not be solo-friendly (it is, after all, meant for large-group content and should be encouraging both players to join raid guilds and raid guilds to farm talent).
 
These things aren't the same issues, and so I usually say that the game needs minor, I think someone called them "bureaucratic" tweaks.  There should be changes to the rewards and admin side of the game, but this game needs to be a sledgehammer to the testicles in terms of difficulty and it should require both a lot of knowledge and practice to move forward.  It should feel like an insurmountable wall on your own to attune, forcing you to find a raid guild (which you'll need anyway to raid, of course).
 
I don't think people leaving is as serious as everyone's making it out to be.  Obviously, we're talking about attunement so we've all at least done or are doing it.  And, honestly, if you can't do attunement in this game, chances are you weren't going to be raiding anyway.  Carbine does need to drop content over the next few months to give both raiders something to do on the off-days and raid-wash-outs something to achieve.  Until then, I'm not sure Carbine has less people than they expected to have, given their target audience.
 
Over all, I think it's imperative for Carbine to reduce the impact of the non-game mechanics and play to their strengths, the game mechanics.  They might make things easier on the admin and logistical side to a degree, but game difficulty needs to remain.  Wildstar is surviving essentially by being the only MMORPG to offer content as bruisingly difficult as they have, and obviously their core audience (the people who won't jump ship on a whim) are people who want their game to try to kill them back.
 
I think that's where this whole tedium v difficulty soundbite comes from.  We need to be very specific about what we want changed, because some things are more difficult because they require time, and not everything irrespective of time is difficult.  If we want to armchair develop, we need to have more specific and targeted proposals.	
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I don't care about difficulty.
 
I do care about time wasting activities that are mind numbingly boring.
 
I feel attunement is the latter, not the former.
 
Hell i did Puzzle Master in farside without using any addons or writing things down.
 
Hardcore.
 
 
(and failed it 20 times before i got there, woosa.)	
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Wildstar is surviving essentially by being the only MMORPG to offer content as bruisingly difficult as they have, and obviously their core audience (the people who won't jump ship on a whim) are people who want their game to try to kill them back.
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			I can appreciate the fight in you who oppose his view but it's all but decided that the Attunement will be adjusted. The RAIDERS(and I don't mean those guys from Oakland) don't even like it. Even a guy from Enigma made a post. It's a done deal. Yay more Raiders! Woo Hoo!	
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I can appreciate the fight in you who oppose his view but it's all but decided that the Attunement will be adjusted. The RAIDERS don't even like it. Even a guy from Enigma made a post. It's a done deal. Yay more Raiders! Woo Hoo!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can appreciate the fight in you who oppose his view but it's all but decided that the Attunement will be adjusted. The RAIDERS don't even like it. Even a guy from Enigma made a post. It's a done deal. Yay more Raiders! Woo Hoo!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can appreciate the fight in you who oppose his view but it's all but decided that the Attunement will be adjusted. The RAIDERS(and I don't mean those guys from Oakland) don't even like it. Even a guy from Enigma made a post. It's a done deal. Yay more Raiders! Woo Hoo!
----
			
What if guild groups with voice chat are also failing silver runs no matter how many attempts and different play/group compositions? 
 
What is the right call here. Be an a-hole starting calling people out left and right? 
 
PS. Leaving the guild is not an option.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 source?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No, it hasn't at all. They are not changing the current attunement.
 
New attumements will be created, as you might expect, within the scope of new content.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I can appreciate the fight in you who oppose his view but it's all but decided that the Attunement will be adjusted. The RAIDERS(and I don't mean those guys from Oakland) don't even like it. Even a guy from Enigma made a post. It's a done deal. Yay more Raiders! Woo Hoo!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's over dude. Time to wake up to reality. Sanity won in the end.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The current Population numbers. The number of Raiders posting I quit posts. You can try to dispute my claims but as you people are slowly learning Balf is always right eheheheheehehhe
 
Off to work :P
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 i guess you have proper sources for 1. population numbers and 2. the amount of raiders posting something is high enough to even value. 
i would guess no. so pls troll somewhere else
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nothing is changing. The end.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I thought they just admitted the current attunement failed and 'future' attunements would be less, masochistic in nature?
 
 
 
P.S. Don't leave me Balf, i'm not ready. :(
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shame.
 
This game has such great potential. Too bad stiff-necks and hard-heads will doom it as yet another "could have been great but ..." game.
 
No offense, but at the rate we're going, it won't be long until there is one almost-active PVE server, one barely-active PVP server and poor little Evindra, Land of Casual Scum.
 
Man, won't you guys feel awesome about yourselves, knowing that if you'd only stepped off your high-horses and shared your gaming space with people who aren't as good as you are, that there would actually be an economy, other players and, you know, folks to admire how cool your meaningless-in-a-vacuum gear is.
----
			
re: Casuals and Raiding:
 
I play solo, I have no friends who play MMOs, so it's pretty much impossible for me to finish attunement even if I wanted to which I'm not sure if I really do or not.  I would like to do the Adventures but can't, and given the difficulty in trying to solo the higher level Adventures I'm going to go out on a limb and say you can't solo Dungeons.  :)
 
For me (and others like me I assume) the meta game is about loot, housing, and exploration.  One problem for me is that there's this entire category of loot that's completely inaccessible to me.  I would love to have better PvE gear but whenever I "inspect player" they're always using gear that's being dropped from Vet Adventures that I can't do.  It's gated / walled off and that turns me off.
 
I'm not asking for things to be handed to me, but I'd like to be able to set an achievable goal and work towards it.  If I have to grind for enough Elder Gems to buy the gear - I can do that.  If I have to run around and collect 100 flowers for Drusera to say pretty please and have her gift me the gear - I can do that too.  What I can't do is find 5 random people who will stick through an Adventure and be good enough and fast enough to achieve the loot drops.
 
So, since no gear I find or can buy will be better than what I already have, that part of the game is "over". 
 
So my feedback would be - don't gate things that don't have to be gated.  Allow alternative paths for the casual player to take to get to things that are still relevant to them.  Even if we're not Raiding, we're still out in the world and better gear helps us in our "end game" as much as anyone else.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shame.
 
This game has such great potential. Too bad stiff-necks and hard-heads will doom it as yet another "could have been great but ..." game.
 
No offense, but at the rate we're going, it won't be long until there is one almost-active PVE server, one barely-active PVP server and poor little Evindra, Land of Casual Scum.
 
Man, won't you guys feel awesome about yourselves, knowing that if you'd only stepped off your high-horses and shared your gaming space with people who aren't as good as you are, that there would actually be an economy, other players and, you know, folks to admire how cool your meaningless-in-a-vacuum gear is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I have 8 more minutes lol
----
			
You don't need sources for something you can see right infront of your eyes. My guild was a guild that migrated from another game. Within 2-3 weeks we had 20ish people attuned. Then people just stopped logging in except for raids, because once you make your BIS crafted gear, what is there left to do? Nothing. Then they just stopped logging in altogether. To the point where our guild had to merge with the only other raiding guild on the server. There are ghost servers out there, people reporting everyday how their server is dead. If that's not proof to you that the game is hemorrhaging players, what is? 
 
To the people who say you only need a good guild to get attuned - that's also false. You need a good guild that's filled with nice players. Hardcore players, unfortunately are rarely nice. Once they're attuned, they'll help their friends through and maybe one or two other players. But there's only so many times you want to run mind numblingly boring dungeons that you have to restart over and over if someone messes up or you get the wrong optionals. How often have you personally helped someone through their first run of the dungeon? - It either takes 2-4 hours and you never do it again. Or you carry them so hard through it might as well have been a 4 man that person is completely useless carrying any other guildies through because they have no idea what they're doing. Bam you lost more people that can help your other guildies get attuned. 
 
I would've liked for this game to succeed. But at this rate it seems impossible because there is just nothing else to do. Once you've reached the goal of being attuned, there are no other obtainable goals anywhere in the foreseeable future. And people like goals. And no, getting to the end of raid is not  really a goal for you because it is unachieveable by just you. It's a goal for your guild. Which most hardcore people tend to guildhop and thus have very little loyalty to anyways. 	
----
			Look at the Brightside.. the next raid attunement won't be this long. I don't say bad, because its honestly not too bad, I'm having a good time learning all the dungeons well enough to silver them.	
----
	
----
			I'm a casual player and have no intrests in being hardcore.  I like leveling and pvping as these activities don't require a huge time comitment, heck my main is lv 26 and I've got 5 other alts.  I'd like to see the dungeons and raids, but to grind my way into them and repeat them every day or week sounds like work, and I already work 2 jobs IRL. When I do get to 50, if this game has a "hardcore or go home" play style, I'll go play a differnt mmo. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Shame.
 
This game has such great potential. Too bad stiff-necks and hard-heads will doom it as yet another "could have been great but ..." game.
 
No offense, but at the rate we're going, it won't be long until there is one almost-active PVE server, one barely-active PVP server and poor little Evindra, Land of Casual Scum.
 
Man, won't you guys feel awesome about yourselves, knowing that if you'd only stepped off your high-horses and shared your gaming space with people who aren't as good as you are, that there would actually be an economy, other players and, you know, folks to admire how cool your meaningless-in-a-vacuum gear is.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"Flood? What Flood?! The water is only up to our.... *gurgle gurgle gurgle gurgle*"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yep. Honestly, people must be blind to not see what is happening. Either that, or they're so wrapped up in their own over-inflated sense of self-importance that they don't care.
 
I'm a guildmaster. My guild is doing "pretty good" in the grand scheme of things ... but when I have almost forty players who haven't logged in over a month, and twenty more at the three week mark, and twenty MORE at the two-week mark. And I "friend" almost everyone I meet. Add their accounts. Of the three dozen people on my friends list, maybe a fifth of them log on regularly. Hell, of the ten people I brought with me, only four of *them* still play - and these are real-world friends who played for two weeks, saw what they were up against, and smooth-ass quit.
 
No, I can't lay the blame solely on the vast majority of potential players. *Something* is wrong. Very wrong.
 
It's very easy to try and point fingers, but I won't. I will just say that, of my friends at least, none of them were new to MMO's. They all knew what to expect  - but the journey just isn't working for a lot of folks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yep. Honestly, people must be blind to not see what is happening. Either that, or they're so wrapped up in their own over-inflated sense of self-importance that they don't care.
 
I'm a guildmaster. My guild is doing "pretty good" in the grand scheme of things ... but when I have almost forty players who haven't logged in over a month, and twenty more at the three week mark, and twenty MORE at the two-week mark. And I "friend" almost everyone I meet. Add their accounts. Of the three dozen people on my friends list, maybe a fifth of them log on regularly. Hell, of the ten people I brought with me, only four of *them* still play - and these are real-world friends who played for two weeks, saw what they were up against, and smooth-ass quit.
 
No, I can't lay the blame solely on the vast majority of potential players. *Something* is wrong. Very wrong.
 
It's very easy to try and point fingers, but I won't. I will just say that, of my friends at least, none of them were new to MMO's. They all knew what to expect  - but the journey just isn't working for a lot of folks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The people who were hardcore 10 years ago have different schedules now. They like to think they can do all of this, but in reality they cannot.
 
Then, younger players are not interested (or able to be entertained by) the slower pace and long term commitment of an MMO.
 
These are both generalizations, but I feel probably pretty accurate for the most part.
 
There is nothing wrong with the game itself. It's exactly as advertised. And because of that the audience will always be smaller.
----
			
I am finally about to reach 50 and I started with headstart, although I did level another toon to 30 also, that should demonstrate how casual I am.  I play 2-3 hours a day, in the evening, with friends.  My guild is very supportive, and although they are all doing vet dungeons, when a group of people reach 50 they take the time to help them through attunement.  So for those of you that complain about just logging on to do raids, why not help out your guildmates with attunement or leveling?  You will need them for 20/40 man raids anyway, right? 
I am one of the ones that wanted a vanilla WoW game, I hate easy-mode WoW and stopped after Cataclysm.  I'm loving Wildstar and the combat, npc mechanics, etc.  The only thing I think the game needs is more lower-level dungeons, increased XP reward in the dungeons, and better gear incentives in the end-game dungeons/raids.  Attunement should be difficult, you should have to work for it and I don't mind doing it at all. 
As many have said here, the game is 2 months young.  I love the game and trust in the devs to work things out and find a healthy balance between their vision and satisfying the community.  "Rome wasn't built in a day". 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Again, it's the hard-headed "Nothing is going to change, the game is fine" mentality that is getting us to where we are. If "everything is fine" then why the hell are people leaving in DROVES?!
 
 
----
			
The idea that raiding belongs exclusively to the 'hardcore' is the dumbest idea in the history of MMOs.
 
The hardcore/casual dichotomy is a close second.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There are those who think this is a feature, not a bug.
----
			
I think the issue with endgame spawns from a variety of  issues that work into a bigger one...
 
Attunement in particular I've noticed the hardest gate seems to be coming from the timers on dungeon which honestly I've said quite a bit about. However in general they just don't seem to "fit" the content and impose a pacing that to me personally I don't see necessary as the content isn't what I consider a "gauntlet", which is more suiting of a timer. They feel out of place and a tad jarring at first, then you get to raids and it's like "oh wait....there isn't an imposed timer? wtf? okay....". Yes I'm aware that people can stretch and be extremely vague about "time limits" definition, but there isn't a direct and exact timer that equates to this portion of the attunement. 
 
World boss portion can be a pain in the ass on a low population server I imagine, but you'd be in a raid guild at that point I'd hope and you would try to schedule if possible on that part, so I think that is fine.
 
The beginning of the Attunement (pyro to mech assault) actually feel right because it plays to the games strength which is it's actual combat system and working in objectives. When there is a timer involved like war of the wilds it's relevant to the content itself rather than feeling slapped on.
 
However lets say we want the attunement to stay as it is...
 
This brings out the flaw in the other portions of in-game that hurt the other playstyles:
Elder gem cap makes people feel "well im done for now I can't get anything for now so ill log off till next cycle or someone needs me"
There isn't much worth buying with elder gems outside of AMP/Ability points unless you're a raider
Even if you're a raider you can get screwed on rune slots and in turn you lost elder gems even if you try to sell back due to restocking fee
Amp/Ability points are pain to actually find and so the vendor still feels like the only way to really get them
While dungeon crawlers have the 8 instances(4 adventures, 4 dungeons) they can do, they're mixed with those trying to get their attunement done and so a conflict arises between non-raider and raiders, and those who for whatever reason can't make an all guild group. For me personally If I PUG a dungeon I'm jsut there for the content and nothing else because I genuinely enjoy it all
There isn't much in terms of relaxing and rewarding content which actually could be dungeons if not for the above point
PvP is an absolute mess to many players at the moment(not me in particular, but to many people i know who enjoyed that aspect)
Blighthaven is becoming more ghostly if it wasn't already a ghost zone as many who pushed their reputation are complete or nearing completion.
Itemization in some cases can cause items that should be great to be absolute crap due to rune slots atm, so the value of gear progression suffers for those who are gear oriented.
Housing feels like the only really "stable" content to me atm...
 
In essence the soft gate of attunement(yes I said soft gate) while intended to separate non-raiders from raiders is a fine idea and all, but I feel as though if a gate is going to be placed, you have to think about the content outside of the gate as well..and I'd say that it's just not really up to snuff right now for various reasons. So you have more people that are trying to get pass this gate to see content that will hold them over...
 
I would love to see veteran shiphands, I'd love to see more dugneons, 
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
[snip]
----
			
Wildstar was advertised as being for the hardcore but I guess people didn't understand that sentiment. The attunement has some stupid steps, but dungeons is not 1 of them. 
If you can't complete that step, then you're not good enough for raiding, it's quite that simple. Complaining that timers don't prove anything won't help you complete them either. 
I hope Carbine stick to their guns here and keep this particular step as it is. Will Wildstar die if this step stays? Who knows, I don't and you don't, even if you like to believe your extended knowledge of how to run an MMO will provide to be useful in this case. If Carbine decides they want to keep the game hardcore, that's entirely up to them. It's cool that they're listening to their customers, but customers aren't always right either. 	
----
			
tbh, the population speaks for itself.
 
If people dont see less and less people on then.. yea.. You must be Exile on certain servers or blind.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Those people are terrible human beings and I'll be laughing at them when there are only the ten of them left playing. Even then, they will claim a "moral victory" by helping destroy a great game, rather than share it with damn filthy casual scum.
 
Then we can watch NCSoft as Nexus follows City of Heroes into the crapper. YAY! NICHE GAME!
----
			
I don't think attunement killed the end game really BUT what it did do was kill of any reason for me to make a alt.
 
There is no reason why i should have to grind all that again to play a alt when raiding the attunement needs to be account bound. maybe a Bound on account Genisis key :)
 
Kind Regards	
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{| class="blockquote"
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain."
 
I'm still frankly shocked at all the posts about people saying they followed the game in development, knew what to expect from Devspeaks and videos and interviews, and still are surprised by attunements and dungeon difficulty. In Wildstar's defense, none of what's happening should come as a surprise to anyone.
 
My biggest beef with the hardcore scene in WoW circa 2004-2005 was the bait & switch players were put through. You have this lovely, expansive world that takes a few months to level through, and you're slowly goaded into 5-man grouping with elite areas and instanced dungeons, and they're there from levels 12-59... and then out of nowhere, FORTY MAN RAID-OR-DIE, GET KEYS, GET ATTUNED, and the culture shock was immense, having to step in line with a guild and get 'employed' or be second-class trash forever.
 
Wildstar has a lot of great grouping curves, with the difficulties between shiphands, adventures and dungeons; open world bosses at every level, with a built-in high score screen for who did what afterwards; and optional challenges everywhere with gear rewards for solo players. Solo story dungeons with each patch so far. And while WoW's raiding scene was a very new, drastic step for Blizzard(because they for some reason hired the shitheads who RUINED EQ as forum crybabies by demanding raid-or-die design and then quitting the game for having all content on farm! as endgame designers; Tigole & Furor are the Devil), Carbine has been very upfront about the entire attunement and raid structure far ahead of launch.
 
The MMO playerbase has finally come to grips with their ugly truth. They got LFR in WoW because that's what the vast majority actually need. They don't want to admit it, but it's true. They knew what attunement was going to be like, and they tuned out the fact that elite guilds were done with it and raiding on week two of release. They said to themselves and the beta forums "I love the hardcore attitude, I love that dungeons are hard!" and are now mad that dungeons are hard, and keeping them from raiding.
 
You're right, you're not rushing from boss to boss under a timer in raids, so why should you have to in Veterans? Let's ignore the fact that it's two months in and you're supposedly end-game minded & not attuned; if you're still stuck on attunement in an environment where you can buy a run through silver(not even a "perfect" gold!), it's a skill issue, either with the players around you, or yourself. Lowering that bar and removing timers will obviously let more players into raiding, but they may not be very good. This is going to impact your raid group quality in general. If the bar to entry is continuously lowered, the player pool is going to get muddier and muddier. Where you draw the line between "this is too elite, shutdown imminent, Vanguard 2.0" and "LFR casual pandering loot-hallway" is a tough discussion for the community as a whole. Who are you willing to exclude, and at what cost?
----
			
The attunement chain is fairly difficult. It takes time and coordination, but I don't really think that's the issue with the game. 
 
The main issue is that there's nothing to do besides trying to get attuned, so it makes the process seem much worse. There's no entry level large group content to make you feel like you're raiding and progressing. Vanilla WoW had UBRS(10 man) and Molten Core (had a very short attunement chain) which was content you could do immediately and keep yourself busy while you pursued longer attunement chains. In Burning Crusade you could immediately do Karazahn(again a short quest), Gruul and Magtheridon, which kept most guilds entertained while their players did the heroic dungeons to finish the much longer attunement chains for the harder raids. 
 
Wildstar has absolutely no PvE content to do at max besides getting yourself attuned. There's not even a rep you can sit and grind, besides the awful dailies which you only spend an hour or so doing. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
tbh, the population speaks for itself.
 
If people dont see less and less people on then.. yea.. You must be Exile on certain servers or blind.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't think attunement killed the end game really BUT what it did do was kill of any reason for me to make a alt.
 
There is no reason why i should have to grind all that again to play a alt when raiding the attunement needs to be account bound. maybe a Bound on account Genisis key :)
 
Kind Regards
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{| class="blockquote"
An excellent point. There are still people who need to do their first attunement, and others doing alts, so I think the overlap is a happy accident in design as far as getting people to keep doing content; once enough people have account-bound keys, people will be even less-willing to do attunement steps, publicly or in a guild.
 
 
I like that idea too. Might be skewed by shield absorbtion or tanking hybrids though.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
I really started playing attention late week before last. Between Friday and Sunday, we picked up like 10 new guildies. They were ALL transfers from other servers (either transfers or outright re-rolls). Where did all these people come from? Every other NA server - including the PVP ones. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all about new guildies and I love them all - but damn, why did they leave to come to Evindra, Land of Casual Scum?
----
			
When guilds are leaving Pago to join Pergo.
 
You know something's wrong.	
----
			
Madda loves General Forum. Every thread Madda sees has people that claim they know the reason for the problems of the game.
 
If they wanted to help, Madda thinks they should contact Carbine about it. Much better use of time.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Madda loves General Forum. Every thread Madda sees has people that claim they know the reason for the problems of the game.
 
If they wanted to help, Madda thinks they should contact Carbine about it. Much better use of time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This is giving Carbine feedback.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Madda loves General Forum. Every thread Madda sees has people that claim they know the reason for the problems of the game.
 
If they wanted to help, Madda thinks they should contact Carbine about it. Much better use of time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Is true, dungeons are hard.
Difference between Adventure and Dungeon veterans is night and day.
 
Chua like it, but can understand is turn off for many Humans.
Many many discussions in Dungeons forum on how to change.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Proto laugh that Chua soon play alone. Proto laugh even more that Chua get to type to himself and roleplay a hermit.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Madda doesn't think so. Posting on the official forums why you think the game is failing, only to be greeted by an automated response isn't feedback. Contacting Carbine directly is a good way of giving feedback.
 
If forum posting was feedback though, Madda would be a pretty good supervisor.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can't argue with a straight face that the general forums aren't a good place for feedback. Developers have made a post in response to players at least weekly, and not just to the people who post everyday; Last week some music dev I never knew existed thanked a bunch of people who barely post for their positive feedback on specific zone tracks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
Only Madda gets to talk like that to Olivar. Madda bet you're the kind of biggun that likes to harvest a node until it has 1 resource left and then leaves.
----
			To cut it simple, Endgame is boring and the attunement is a part of it. It is failing to hold existing players whilst the game itself is not bringing new players. Exiles in populated servers seem ok at this point. Others are turning into ghost towns every week. White Knights are still optimistic yet their numbers also dwindled in that case; it gives me ambivalent feeling. 	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can't argue with a straight face that the general forums aren't a good place for feedback. Developers have made a post in response to players at least weekly, and not just to the people who post everyday; Last week some music dev I never knew existed thanked a bunch of people who barely post for their positive feedback on specific zone tracks.
----
			If you don't like the threads here Madda.. don't read them ?  I skip over plenty everyday.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To cut it simple, Endgame is boring and the attunement is a part of it. It is failing to hold existing players whilst the game itself is not bringing new players. Exiles in populated servers seem ok at this point. Others are turning into ghost towns every week. White Knights are still optimistic yet their numbers also dwindled in that case; it gives me ambivalent feeling. 
----
			
I just like carbine's reasoning for making the game as it is.
 
Something about "the 1% hardcore population will be the one to spread the word about how awesome the game is and thus make more join"
 
How about the 99% others who say that the game is terrible, what in the world do people expect to happen then? Will more people join when about 99% will rate the game terrible?
 
I recently gave a guest pass to my friend, played a little with him, he wanted to stop about level 7 because he was getting bored. He of course proceeded to say that: "It could probably be one of these games that are only fun when you reach a certain level" at which I could only agree, dungeons are very much fun and I have no doubts that raids too would be incredibly fun, but that doesn't matter if the way to reach these things are so incredibly dull that you just don't feel like playing.
 
I could do dungeons over and over again because they are very entertaining. Sadly though, even that can become boring once it becomes too repetitive and I am not progressing anywhere from doing dungeons, unless I want to do something I find to be incredibly dull, such as doing rep grinding for the attunement and what not.	
----
			
I liked the attunement silver dungeons alot. It was a much needed breath of fresh air from all the usual spoon-feeding that gets released nowadays.
It took time, practice and coordination and I enjoyed it.
 
Im so sick of lazy-ass gamers that dont want to do anything but stand in town an get showered down by legendaries(Im looking at you, diablo III - a game completely ruined because of masses)
 
If your not good enough/geared enough to complete the dungeons in the allowed time frame your not ready to progress further. Simple as that. So buck the *cupcake* up and practice instead of moaning and whinning.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, but Madda can. Why don't you link Madda to a few of them and we can see if those are really devs.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you don't like the threads here Madda.. don't read them ?  I skip over plenty everyday.
----
			
I feel the same, i loved the attunement and i love raiding but it is hard to get ppl onboard now because many quit or simply aren´t attuned and u have to help them all the way etc etc..
Wish they would smash the attunement into silver dungeons only and u are done and rdy to raid - my guess is - no one will complain and quit about it now if it actually gets changed.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh hey, those actually don't look like bots / mindless one liner posts. Point for you.
 
Gen Discussion is still a horrible place for feedback, but you has point.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's pretty much the "Speaks in Third Person" crowd who's hanging on to the "everything is fine until Carbine says so" mentality.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What does it say about WildStar that its most ardent defenders spend this much time on the forum instead of playing the game?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Since that crowd went wild and have been barging into every thread to bark "Everything is fine. The problems are either figments of your imagination or were caused by you. Stop trolling." I started putting each of them on ignore and soon discovered that more than half of the posts are now hidden. What does it say about WildStar that its most ardent defenders spend this much time on the forum instead of playing the game?
----
			
This attunement process reminds me heavily of ESO veteran content.
 
I hated ESO veteran content and that is main reason I unsubbed forever; hitting VR 12 had to be one of the worst grinds I have ever had the misfortune to experience. I mean, I played some Korean grind core MMOs that were more fun than that.
 
And here's the thing, ESO devs have realized their mistake and are actually going through the effort to address it.
 
Can you say the same thing here?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This attunement process reminds me heavily of ESO veteran content.
 
I hated ESO veteran content and that is main reason I unsubbed forever; hitting VR 12 had to be one of the worst grinds I have ever had the misfortune to experience. I mean, I played some Korean grind core MMOs that were more fun than that.
 
And here's the thing, ESO devs have realized their mistake and are actually going through the effort to address it.
 
Can you say the same thing here?
----
			
Well in the end, I don't actually give a crud about attunement process: I will never do it and thus I will never raid.
 
Instead, I will just PvP for now but since they decided to break that big time this patch it's almost time to throw in the towel.
 
In 1 month, I am almost certain you will see an even larger drop off of players.
 
Keep focusing on that 5% Carbine! But don't be surprised if the rest move on.	
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In 1 month, I am almost certain you will see an even larger drop off of players.
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Madda finds it hilarious that if a Madda chooses to have fun on the forums by his/her own terms that is not harmful, that Madda is blindly called names by people who don't like it.
 
But Madda wouldn't expect anything else from a dirty, bad MONSTER.
 
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Zzz. Attunement is a torture for us right now. Players quitting the game out of the blue randomly results us having to find a new member to carry through the attunement process to get bodies in raids.
 
I don't know about other guilds, but that's our situation right now. Every week we have to constantly replace members who quit the game. It's completely awful, a torture, constantly recruiting and attuning members over and over again. Once they get attuned, they realized there's nothing to do outside of raid times, so they quit the game. The cycle just repeats itself.
 
Our group has been attuning members for a month. I don't know how long we can keep this up.	
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Dont understand.. if a player cant do the attunement, it means he will certainly not be able to raid.
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I didn't call anyone a name. I said I love you guys and gals.
 
But for serious, y'all do get a little over-the-top in y'all's defense of the nearly-indefensible. Mad props for trying to keep it positive, though. ;)
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How would you like it if Madda called you "That Guy Who Speaks Correctly"? It hurts, doesn't it?
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Hey, even some of us "White Knights" have seen the writing on the wall.
 
It's pretty much the "Speaks in Third Person" crowd who's hanging on to the "everything is fine until Carbine says so" mentality.
 
I mean, I love those guys and gals, but they are just a *wee bit* unable to see anything past their furry eyebrows sometimes.
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I'm just gonna RP Barong on the forums and it's going to be a mixture of keyboard-smashing and caps-lock because I have a hard time imagining a Draken using a keyboard. I'm sure that will be entertaining for everyone involved.
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You know, I'd actually love to see this.
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			Tex, if you don't like someone talking in 3rd person, just put them on ignore.	
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I'm going to be that guy.
 
Wildstars goal was to grab the attention of the hardcore raiding guilds in WoW. Specifically the top 10-15 hardcore raiding guilds. It got how many of those?
 
Exactly.
 
If Wildstar can't get enough hardcore players interested in its raiding (which by the way is also failing cause guilds that have cleared the 20 man can't even do the 40 man), what makes you think less than 'hardcore' players are going to keep staying when there isn't enough content for them?	
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Tex, if you don't like someone talking in 3rd person, just put them on ignore.
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I'm going to be that guy.
 
Wildstars goal was to grab the attention of the hardcore raiding guilds in WoW. Specifically the top 10-15 hardcore raiding guilds. It got how many of those?
 
Exactly.
 
If Wildstar can't get enough hardcore players interested in its raiding (which by the way is also failing cause guilds that have cleared the 20 man can't even do the 40 man), what makes you think less than 'hardcore' players are going to keep staying when there isn't enough content for them?
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I'm going to be that guy.
 
Wildstars goal was to grab the attention of the hardcore raiding guilds in WoW. Specifically the top 10-15 hardcore raiding guilds. It got how many of those?
 
Exactly.
 
If Wildstar can't get enough hardcore players interested in its raiding (which by the way is also failing cause guilds that have cleared the 20 man can't even do the 40 man), what makes you think less than 'hardcore' players are going to keep staying when there isn't enough content for them?
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I think Wildstar was made with the idea that there are no hardcore raiding guilds in WoW anymore because raiding in WoW is not hardcore.
 
Which is a matter of perception, but fair enough.  Wildstar was built on the idea that WoW lost something in its transition which must be replaced.  Everyone on WoW said that was true, everyone else said it was true, it was taken as a matter of fact.  WoW had gotten easier and more casual over the years and that was a bad thing.
 
I don't think people knew what they were complaining about.  I love Wildstar for EXACTLY that reason, that it's brutally difficult and requires a different level of concentration.  I don't think everyone that complained about WoW being too easy knew what they were in for, though.  One of those things that's easier to say than prove.
 
As it stands, even Carbine knew they weren't a "WoW-killer" because they're essentially targeting different audiences now.  Wildstar is attempting to pick up a lot of people who actually did, without rose colored glasses, miss older MMORPGs.  And barring a few issues we have with the loot RNG and the way content is gated (the elder gems are REALLY obviously a new-school idea, that capped JP and VP nonsense), we're largely getting what we wanted.  Most of us have petty gripes, but very few of the people remaining are the kind of people who actually mind the difficulty.
 
Look at the current crop of complaints.  Server populations make it hard to form raids, and there's nothing bruising to do when you're at cap.  Watch how fast people get shot down for even suggesting this game be a little less difficult.
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None of the Wildstar raids are more brutal than heroic versions of current raids in WoW.
 
The BUGS and people managing skills are what is brutal. 40 man raiding alone is a giant flop. People who say "WoW has no hardcore raiding" clearly haven't participated in any of it. People confuse 'casual' with 'more access of information available' when it comes to WoW.
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Just the opposite... WIldStar's raids and even some dungeon encounter are typical more complex than a WoW Heroic raider can handle.
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Only some though. Madda has admitted many times that Carbine has made some pretty odd decisions Madda doesn't agree with.
 
But for the most part, Madda only white knights if a QQ thread pops up explaining how something is killing Wildstar or the such with little to no proof. Those are claim people are white knighting are usually the ones who've been outwitted in their own topics x3
 
Also, How dare you call us "Speaks in Third Person". How would you like it if Madda called you "That Guy Who Speaks Correctly"? It hurts, doesn't it?
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eh they can post how they want, if you dont like it dont read it ?
 
I mostly just see the posters name and skip over what they wrote to the next post, but you don't see me calling people out over it.	
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None of the Wildstar raids are more brutal than heroic versions of current raids in WoW.
 
The BUGS and people managing skills are what is brutal. 40 man raiding alone is a giant flop. People who say "WoW has no hardcore raiding" clearly haven't participated in any of it. People confuse 'casual' with 'more access of information available'  and "Content on demand" when it comes to WoW.
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It is slightly difficult to take a legitimate conversation about game balance/changes/complaints/etc. seriously when the person posting is actually roleplaying their character discussing meta-game issues on an internet forum. 
 
"Chua not understand why silly human have complaint about PVP balance, when Chua have perfectly good time making enemy EXPLODEEEEEEE!!!" 
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I'm sorry, but I raided heroic raids in WoW, and SoO is more difficult than normal raids in WoW, but I'll stand by that point firmly.  We cleared my last heroic Garrosh with a ragtag group where myself (on an Arms Warrior) and the main tank (a Blood DK) were responsible for half the total interrupts across the fight.  And we won.
 
You'd NEVER get away with the equivalent of that in a Wildstar raid at level.
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Guilds with good players clearing content that went to another game together ?
 
SAY ITS NOT SO!	
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Guilds with good players clearing content that went to another game together ?
 
SAY ITS NOT SO!
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True, but those that do that are just trying to play off Olivar (who stole that from Madda, but you didn't hear that through Madda.) rather poorly.
 
Madda's only seen a handful of people who do that as well. The funny part is it's not really roleplaying as it is talking like Chua. One could also argue you'd get the same message from any other person, just in a normal way of speaking.
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Actually, you do get away with that in Wildstar. Heroic Garrosh also wasn't even the most challenging content released in MoP and that entire raid is as challenging as GA. It is silly to say that "Heroic WoW raiders can't clear any content" when the ONLY people clearing content in this game are heroic WoW raiders.
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Just the opposite... WIldStar's raids and even some dungeon encounter are typical more complex than a WoW Heroic raider can handle.
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Oh.... This thread again.
 
Protip: find friends that don't suck at the game and play it with them.  It will make attunement take next to no time
 
TL;DR: #friends #getcarried	
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As someone who has a degree in dead languages I understand that standards for communication are essentially made up and agreed upon in very, very, loose terms by consensus. Grammatical rules don't exist in some vacuum where we all opt into them and get a little "ping" noise when we violate them, but there are just a few things that enhance clarity in a conversation. I will admit that Olivar's posts typically make me cringe because I find something cringeworthy about the premise of the roleplay/meta-discussion thing, but there are actually times when clarity is lost because this is being used as a significant post-frame. 
 
What I mean is: If you have the ability to state something succinctly, clearly, and in a manner that will get your meaning, tone, etc. across the internet (notorious for making the more subtle aspects of communication difficult) you should use that ability. What actually happens when someone decides to post in Chua-speak, for example, is that the majority of people on the forums (a) don't take the post seriously (not the poster's fault, but let's be real), ( B) Miss something because they are too busy focusing on what is intentionally a distinct/abnormal manner of speaking (again, not the poster's fault-but lets be real), or © actually have trouble with clarity because they are not familiar with the style or care to examine it.
 
I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying it makes me and many others do additional work to take posts seriously or understand them in meaningful ways. So yes its going to attract a little derision or the occasional Picard facepalm.
 
Note: In no way is this meant to offend folks, especially those who are more roleplay-oriented. I want you and everyone else to be able to have cake/eat it also and part of that is respecting whatever folks want to do with their Wildstar experience. 
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And, let's face it, a lot of people said they wanted harder PVE content, but definitely did not mean it.
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 Grammatical rules don't exist in some vacuum where we all opt into them and get a little "ping" noise when we violate them
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