124689-wildstar-has-been-p2w-since-launch-yet-the-sky-has-not-fallen

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With all the hubbub surrounding the idea of a cash shop, and how it would dramatically alter the game, ect, I thought I'd give everyone a bit of reminder as to what the CREDD system has already been doing. 
 
We can already buy power with cash in WS. You can buy Amp & Ability points off the CX, as well as Runes, Flux, ect. Those who spend more P on their gear and runes are undeniably at an advantage. With the CREDD system, Plat is cash, everything has a premium currency equivalent. Letting people short-circuit the CREDD and do a straight micro-transaction seems to be ruffling some jimmies, but we have to remember that power is already for sale. Hell, there's a pair of pistols on Enity's market from DS that are better than Ohmna weapons for ~220 P. Buying those would put someone at a huge advantage. Let me emphasize this a bit. The only way someone could get a better weapon would be to get a drop from DS raid bosses, and right now they can be bought with $.
 
This is not limited to power either. I've seen quite a few who claim they would not approve or even quit over the cash selling of cosmetic items, including housing stuff. Every dye or customization option that can be traded is also able to be bought with cash, right now,  and it's all thanks to CREDD. 
 
So don't harsh on cash shop too much. All this talk of a cash shop and people forget that everything selling for P is already selling for cash. 
 
The main difference of a cash shop would simply allow players to skip CREDD, meaning CRB could put a flat price on items that would not fluctuate, and allow players to make smaller purchases. That being said, the existence of CREDD is the largest evidence that CRB won't add a cash shop in the future, and instead simply sell everything for P. Ever wondered why WildStar is so aggressive about gold sinks? CREDD means the more P drained out of the economy, the more people will want to pay. 	
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Disagree. The important factor to P2W is whether the monetization strategy revolves around enticing players to spend extra money for in-game advantages. I have never once felt pressured into buying CREDD, nor have I felt like time was spent on content to entice those players.
 
So the real main difference of a cash shop is that Carbine would be more aggressive in creating content to entice free players to spend money rather than to keep paying for sub content.	
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Disagree. The important factor to P2W is whether the monetization strategy revolves around enticing players to spend extra money for in-game advantages. I have never once felt pressured into buying CREDD, nor have I felt like time was spent on content to entice those players.
 
So the real main difference of a cash shop is that Carbine would be more aggressive in creating content to entice free players to spend money rather than to keep paying for sub content.
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I agree with Jeff. The game is essentially P2W in some ways for sure (which lessens the fun/drive for competitive content), but the game's design doesn't push us into spending real money. There have been times when I personally wanted a lot of fast cash, but in its current state the game offers a few ways to make fast gold in significant quantities, especially at 50. I feel like the game had more unreasonable gold sinks at launch than exist today, so I think we're moving away from the 'cash shop shove'.
 
I'd also point out that cash shops are highly problematic when what they sell is not available as a reward for in-game actions. This is not currently the case in WS, as everything that can be bought with CREDD can, obviously, be bought with gold. There are no items locked behind a Fancy Colourful Crystal currency.	
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With all the hubbub surrounding the idea of a cash shop, and how it would dramatically alter the game, ect, I thought I'd give everyone a bit of reminder as to what the CREDD system has already been doing. 
 
We can already buy power with cash in WS. You can buy Amp & Ability points off the CX, as well as Runes, Flux, ect. Those who spend more P on their gear and runes are undeniably at an advantage. With the CREDD system, Plat is cash, everything has a premium currency equivalent. Letting people short-circuit the CREDD and do a straight micro-transaction seems to be ruffling some jimmies, but we have to remember that power is already for sale. Hell, there's a pair of pistols on Enity's market from DS that are better than Ohmna weapons for ~220 P. Buying those would put someone at a huge advantage.
 
This is not limited to power either. I've seen quite a few who claim they would not approve or even quit over the cash selling of cosmetic items, including housing stuff. Every dye or customization option that can be traded is also able to be bought with cash, right now,  and it's all thanks to CREDD. 
 
So don't harsh on cash shop too much. All this talk of a cash shop and people forget that everything selling for P is already selling for cash. 
 
The main difference of a cash shop would simply allow players to skip CREDD, meaning CRB could put a flat price on items that would not fluctuate, and allow players to make smaller purchases. That being said, the existence of CREDD is the largest evidence that CRB won't add a cash shop in the future, and instead simply sell everything for P. Ever wondered why WildStar is so aggressive about gold sinks? CREDD means the more P drained out of the economy, the more people will want to pay. 
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Disagree. The important factor to P2W is whether the monetization strategy revolves around enticing players to spend extra money for in-game advantages. I have never once felt pressured into buying CREDD, nor have I felt like time was spent on content to entice those players.
 
So the real main difference of a cash shop is that Carbine would be more aggressive in creating content to entice free players to spend money rather than to keep paying for sub content.
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Heh, I never really thought about it that way...
 
I'm still a little fuzzy on how you "win" in an MMO by having "pretty" cosmetic things to look at, but I guess that's a slightly different topic of conversation.
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Ability/Amp points and Runes are clearly exactly this system. It takes P just to unlock the slots gear already has, then more P to add the remaining slots. That's a ton of P the game makes you spend to even be able to add runes to your gear.
 
Have you ever wondered why Logic slots are universally bad? If your first slot in your i74 DS drop gear is Logic, you can be damn sure that most raiders would spend 3 P just to get another random slot instead. 
 
There are even rune sets that cannot be crafted. This means that attempting to salvage for the specific rune is not viable and must be bought from another player for P, that's the whole point of not having recipes. 
 
.....
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			Considering CREDD goes for 12-15p(I can only speak for Entity mind you :P), if a person is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to "P2W", I'm not going to envy that stupidity.	
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Got full ability points in 2 days of pvp. 7 amps in another 2 days (also bought full pvp set during this). 
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Got full ability points in 2 days of pvp. 7 amps in another 2 days (also bought full pvp set during this). 
 
After all the changes getting full ability/amp points is really easy.
 
And you can get eldan runic modules is even easier, run a couple dungeons, get lucky with rolls or buy modules with glory.
 
You are seriously making it look like the game is a huge grindfest and min/maxing every piece of non-bis gear is a necessity - only gear I've re-rolled was DS tier pieces, I just put in non optimal runes in those crappy water/earth slots in gear that isn't BiS.
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It's to point the hypocrisy of those saying they would leave the game if players could buy power/cosmetics/ect.
 
You already can, yet they are still here. I'd would be kinda nice if they would shut up about it already.
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The difference, if I may be so bold, is that CREDD was put in by Carbine at launch.
 
Therefore, CREDD is flawlessly #hardcore.
 
Anything that comes after (or in addition to) CREDD is, by definition not #hardcore enough for Wildstar. Ergo, it's bad.
 
Even though CREDD lets us do *essentially* the same thing, because it is not the exact same thing, it is bad.
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Well, in the end the point is that I've never felt pressured to buy plat in this game. I've never felt disadvantaged for not spending money to buy plat. Nor has anyone I know. If Carbine manages to implement a F2P/B2P/P2W system that manages to never make anyone I play with feel pressured to spend real life money in game, then I'm cool with it.
 
The point for me isn't about how Carbine makes money. It's whether I feel manipulated by a system trying to extract real life money from me.
 
There's nothing clear to me about ability points and amp points being P2W. I had one drop and I sold it for 25 plat. Sweet deal for me! I've known other people to buy them for plat they earned in game. Real life money never came into it.
 
Heck, I bought a pristine key for my wife for 25 plat so she could skip world bosses since when she logs on she likes to play with me rather than run around the world finding WB groups. Again, all money I earned in gain, no thought of even spending extra plat.
 
As long as this is my experience in game, IDC how Carbine makes its money.	
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 it's pretty easy to get disenfranchised about it. 
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You mean because people forget that it's there it makes it OK
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It's not P2W. It was pay to lessen grind since you can as you say, buy credds to get the AMPs / Ability points faster. It's not p2w because you can also (and now without many issues) get them by simply... playing.
 
What's actual P2W? Buffs and gear that give you advantage that's ONLY available through the usage of real money (or really insane grind). One good example was the old gold-ammo system in WoT. You could only buy those using the gold currency (aka real money currency).
 
moderator edit: language 
			
				
	Edited April 13, 2015 by Chillia	
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With all the hubbub surrounding the idea of a cash shop, and how it would dramatically alter the game, ect, I thought I'd give everyone a bit of reminder as to what the CREDD system has already been doing. 
 
We can already buy power with cash in WS. You can buy Amp & Ability points off the CX, as well as Runes, Flux, ect. Those who spend more P on their gear and runes are undeniably at an advantage. With the CREDD system, Plat is cash, everything has a premium currency equivalent. Letting people short-circuit the CREDD and do a straight micro-transaction seems to be ruffling some jimmies, but we have to remember that power is already for sale. Hell, there's a pair of pistols on Enity's market from DS that are better than Ohmna weapons for ~220 P. Buying those would put someone at a huge advantage. Let me emphasize this a bit. The only way someone could get a better weapon would be to get a drop from DS raid bosses, and right now they can be bought with $.
 
This is not limited to power either. I've seen quite a few who claim they would not approve or even quit over the cash selling of cosmetic items, including housing stuff. Every dye or customization option that can be traded is also able to be bought with cash, right now,  and it's all thanks to CREDD. 
 
So don't harsh on cash shop too much. All this talk of a cash shop and people forget that everything selling for P is already selling for cash. 
 
The main difference of a cash shop would simply allow players to skip CREDD, meaning CRB could put a flat price on items that would not fluctuate, and allow players to make smaller purchases. That being said, the existence of CREDD is the largest evidence that CRB won't add a cash shop in the future, and instead simply sell everything for P. Ever wondered why WildStar is so aggressive about gold sinks? CREDD means the more P drained out of the economy, the more people will want to pay. 
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Actually, for me that's precisely the point. If it's innocuous enough that I forget it's there, then it doesn't affect me at all.
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The point for me isn't about how Carbine makes money. It's whether I feel manipulated by a system trying to extract real life money from me.
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			It seems people need to spend hundreds of dollars to make CREDD = P2W.  Those people that don't want to see the cash shop P2W aren't talking about the round about way you'd need to gain plat through CREDD to play the market.  They mean actually having a true shop with that crap in it.  I'm looking at Precision Heavy-Bore Painmakers, they're 225-260p, I'd have to buy 15-18 CREDD to buy that DS weapon I'm seeing on the AH right now.  That's $300-360, not including rune slots, runes, and re-rolling runes.  Now, I've never played a P2W game, so I don't know, but to me that seems to be an excessive amount of cash for one item.	
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The whole point is that just because you are ignorant of the effects does not poof them out of existence.
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Buying in-game currency is not pay to win, it's paying for convenience.
 
An example of pay to win -
 
If Carbine were to release and lock an exclusive set of gear, loaded with greater stats than anything available in-game, behind a pay wall in a cash shop.	
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The whole point is that just because you are ignorant of the effects does not poof them out of existence. 
 
The obscene cost of runes/flux, amp/ability grind, and every P skippable grind is forced on you to get the CREDD flowing. Every person lamenting the cost of a dye or housing item is affected by it. CREDD unilaterally links the P cost of everything in the game to $. You are most certainly effected by every transaction in the game.
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While ability/amps or runes alone are clearly P2W, the ability to sell DS weapons on the AH is irrefutably P2W. The only way to get a better weapon is to get a DS boss drop. I'd estimate that less than .05% of the playerbase has one of those better weapons, let alone the ability to get them.
 
That means that for 99.95% of WS players, the best weapon they can get is on the AH, in other words up for $.
 
Are you seriously saying that's not P2W? 
 
Just because they are not straight up superior does not mean they aren't P2W. I honestly don't even know of a game that sold gear that was actually superior to anything that could be obtained in-game.
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Buying in-game currency is not pay to win, it's paying to avoid grinding.
 
An example of pay to win would be if Carbine locked an exclusive set of gear, loaded with greater stats than anything achievable in-game, behind a pay wall in a cash shop.
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CREDD allows you to trade real life money for time playing the game. If that's how you want to go about it, it's all good. It doesn't affect me.
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It's not P2W if you can just play the game and get it . . .
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To say it differently. My wife just got the x-89 unlock. She'd saved up a ton of glory by that point and was able to buy three pieces. She also got another piece in the raid. She has 4 new pieces of raid gear that are unruned, locked slots, and need to have slots added.
 
My response was not "hey honey- let me whip out the credit card". It was "Cool- let's rune some random vet dungeons after work and we'll have it all set up in no time!"
 
The latter is a game I'm willing to play. The former is one I am not.	
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Even if you can have fun with the game as it is now, are you really saying that it wouldn't be more fun without the grind?
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			Need 2-3 CREDD for purchasing AMP/Apility points.  Again, if someone is willing to dish out that much cash for that supposed advantage, I don't envy that stupidity.  I don't feel that the person willing to spend that much real money on in game items has that much of an advantage over what I can do on my own, especially with all the different in-game ways I can get those items.  Now, if CRB was selling the AMP/Ability points in a cash shop for a few bucks each, that would irk the hell out of me.  But considering a person has to spend $40-60 for one, meh.  There loss, I'll just happily farm up some plat on my own time and leave the money for more tangible things :D 	
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and 99.95% of the players cannot just "play the game and get it". P2W is not limited to the sale of exclusive items...
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To say it differently. My wife just got the x-89 unlock. She'd saved up a ton of glory by that point and was able to buy three pieces. She also got another piece in the raid. She has 4 new pieces of raid gear that are unruned, locked slots, and need to have slots added.
 
My response was not "hey honey- let me whip out the credit card". It was "Cool- let's rune some random vet dungeons after work and we'll have it all set up in no time!"
 
The latter is a game I'm willing to play. The former is one I am not.
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100% of the players CAN "play the game and get it". Unless there's something I'm not aware of blocking people from amassing 220 plat?
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P2W, the ability to sell DS weapons on the AH is irrefutably P2W. The only way to get a better weapon is to get a DS boss drop. I'd estimate that less than .05% of the playerbase has one of those better weapons, let alone the ability to get them.
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Would it have been more fun to not need to run vet dungeons to make use of that gear? Did the extra requirement put up by the game not lessen the awesome of getting that gear?
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Those weapons are not even close to BiS.  They're slightly better than ohmna weapons.  If you've killed ohmna, you can obtain one.
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The whole DS BoE weapon being P2W argument is very flawed.
 
The fact of the matter is, you are trying to argue that player-driven capitalism is P2W.  If that is the case, then every game is P2W, because people sell carries or boosts in every game.  Your entire argument is extremely flawed.
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It's not a matter of what players CAN do. It's what they do as a general rule. And in this game, very few people are dropping buckets of money to get them one weapon so that can leapfrog into DS. I mean, if someone shows up with that weapon and quest greens, doubt many guilds are gonna take em on :)
 
On a side note, if all you want is the ohmna weapons, you should consider buying a GA instance from a less progressed guild working on Convergence or Ohmna . . .	
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100% of the players CAN "play the game and get it". Unless there's something I'm not aware of blocking people from amassing 220 plat?
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P2W does not mean "players must pay to win". 
P2W only means "players can pay to win".
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quick question if this game is pay to win why hasnt anyone won yet using your method of buying credd and getting upgrades?1. it requires that someone who is already better to make it available to you.
2. you can get it quite simply by just playing the game a moderate amount (amp/abilities)
 
what would make this pay to win?1. you could buy the item from carbine directly and it required no other player to sell it to you.
2. if the amount of time spent to obtain these things was far greater than the cost to just pay for them with cash (right now it takes maybe 1 week to get full amp/ability just through pvp and nothing else)
 
this would be pay tow in if they tripled the time it takes to get amp/abilities, and carbine sold you them directly (if you triple the difficulty to obtain and dont add this other part then the price would just rise on the market). same goes for weapons, make them purchasable from carbine at a set price and also add other gear like armor and gadgets, etc.	
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P2W does not mean "players must pay to win". 
P2W only means "players can pay to win".
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I don't care how you define it. I only care when it impacts me personally. If it's not the general rule of play, then it's not affecting me by motivating me to spend real life money in game and it's not affecting me by causing development time to be spent on P2W items rather than content.
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That's interesting, as my own perception of P2W games goes hand in hand with Korean grindfest games. They never require you to pay to be competitive, only for the convenience of skipping grind, be it for a weapon, exp boosts, ect.
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pay to win... at what (in wildstar's case)?
 
and the idea behind P2W is that the player MUST pay to remain competitive.  That is not the case here, not even close.
P2W is basically nexon games incarnate.
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If that is the case, are you/ why are you opposed to a cash shop that doesn't sell exclusive items?
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If it causes development on stuff I like to slow so it can be focused on the cash shop, then it impacts me. If there are items in the shop priced at a point where I'd have to decide if it was worth it to me to spend real life money, then it impacts me.
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We can already buy power with cash in WS. You can buy Amp & Ability points off the CX, as well as Runes, Flux, ect. Those who spend more P on their gear and runes are undeniably at an advantage. With the CREDD system, Plat is cash, everything has a premium currency equivalent. Letting people short-circuit the CREDD and do a straight micro-transaction seems to be ruffling some jimmies, but we have to remember that power is already for sale. Hell, there's a pair of pistols on Enity's market from DS that are better than Ohmna weapons for ~220 P. Buying those would put someone at a huge advantage. Let me emphasize this a bit. The only way someone could get a better weapon would be to get a drop from DS raid bosses, and right now they can be bought with $.
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			Out of curiosity - how many people in this thread have bought CREDD to sell to pay for their gear?	
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I don't get this. If you are able to grind for the same items that are for sale, how is it any different?
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The point still stands.  The argument the OP is pushing here is that player-driven capitalism is P2W.  If that is the definition of P2W, then every game is P2W.
 
IMO, it is a flawed argument.	
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Lets not sugar coat it; in comparison to other MMOs, WildStar is a huge grindfest. Don't forget that WS is a subscription based MMO, which changes what you are comparing to. Most of the grind can be skipped with P. 
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Almost every korean grindfest game requires you to protect your equipment in order to upgrade it to a viable level, e.g. +10 or higher equipment or w/e.  And those protection items are bought in a cash shop.  And in some of those games, the protection items don't protect against item degrading, e.g. going from a +9 to a +8 from a failure (rofl).
 
Another example is necessary items that give you a gigantic advantage that can only be obtained through a random item box which requires cash to obtain, turning it into a gambling fest.
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I skipped the rest of the thread to reply to this, so sue me:
 
Wildstar, compared to other MMOs, is NOT a huge grindfest.  Go play Aion (seriously, biggest grind-fest MMO ever), or get a Legendary/Craft an Ascended in GW2, or farm keys in Champions Online, or get Ability Points in The Secret World, or just plain level in ESO, I could really go on..
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Out of curiosity - how many people in this thread have bought CREDD to sell to pay for their gear?
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The end-game gear in Wildstar is dungeon/raid only.  Plat can't buy that. 
Datascape gear can't be bought directly. 
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Go play XIV even, starting a new character you need to level up 4-5 or so classes to be properly prepared for endgame, finish 160+ mandatary story quests, on top of many other grindy features to keep casuals busy that they've added. There's grinds in every MMO and I'd say this one's is fairly overstated by the players.
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I'm currently on T13 in FFXIV. If you even try to claim FFXIV's grind is comparable to WS' you are only discrediting yourself. The difference is night and day between the two. 
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			how many have bought CREDD for real cash the last 2 months?	
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how many have bought CREDD for real cash the last 2 months?
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I bought a CREDD not long ago.
 
But it was for a prize awarded for dueling during Thaydfest II, but that's probably not what you meant  :P	
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Let's be real, just because one COULD buy those the boe DS weapons doesn't make them overpowered, since the potential people you are talking about buying them probably couldn't use a rotation properly.  Also, I would have you remember that the price of fluxes and such have gone down as a direct result of them being added to pvp and such.  Which initially hurt my bottom line, but I adjusted to it.  In this case, perception is not everything. :)  Most (it seems) also have problems scrapping up 15 bucks for a sub, let alone pay for credd to get in-game money and with the population as it is now....I highly doubt it is P2W, now I won't argue that there is the potential to do so....I have yet to see it.
 
Just saying, it's easy enough to make cash in WS, so get off the forums and start farming :P	
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 If there are items in the shop priced at a point where I'd have to decide if it was worth it to me to spend real life money, then it impacts me.
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I'm currently on T13 in FFXIV. If you even try to claim FFXIV's grind is comparable to WS' you are only discrediting yourself. The difference is night and day between the two. 
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(Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not calling you out or belittling you about this.) 
 
So you are saying that the functional effect of the system is not what affects you, but instead how it appears to you? In other words, as long as you are ignorant of the fact that you could be spending $ instead of P, it doesn't bother you?
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Responding to an older comment (just got home), the minute decor exists that I can only buy with real money, I'm out. Until then, I don't mind if decor goes in a cash shop so much (the idea irks me but I wouldn't leave over it).
 
Other than that, I wouldn't bother doing anything competitive in WS or any game with a CREDD-like/cash shop-like system. But that's not a loss for Carbine because the PVP doesn't interest me much anyway, and I've never been a fan of competitive raiding. :P	
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Let's be real, just because one COULD buy those the boe DS weapons doesn't make them overpowered, since the potential people you are talking about buying them probably couldn't use a rotation properly.  Also, I would have you remember that the price of fluxes and such have gone down as a direct result of them being added to pvp and such.  Which initially hurt my bottom line, but I adjusted to it.  In this case, perception is not everything. :)  Most (it seems) also have problems scrapping up 15 bucks for a sub, let alone pay for credd to get in-game money and with the population as it is now....I highly doubt it is P2W, now I won't argue that there is the potential to do so....I have yet to see it.
 
Just saying, it's easy enough to make cash in WS, so get off the forums and start farming :P
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I'm currently on T13 in FFXIV. If you even try to claim FFXIV's grind is comparable to WS' you are only discrediting yourself. The difference is night and day between the two. 
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So a system is not P2W as long as no one buys from it? Kinda an odd line of thinking if you ask me.
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Didn't realize I had to be so straightforward about it, read into what I was saying, never said they could not buy from it.  It's just the sheer amount of credd needed to get the item in question it is improbable that it would happen.
 
Flawed logic (which I doubt) or not, it's still true.  Money doesn't make the player, especially in a game like wildstar (it could, but majority-wise it is not the case).	
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Comparable? I'm saying it's worse. If I had to start over a WS character I could get it into DS in about 4 days of moderate playtime (without spending more money than I earned while leveling up), if I had to play XIV fresh again I'd kill myself by the 2nd hour of turning in story quests to the npc 20 feet away, that's the night and day I see. I could even go as far as mentioning the dark history of XIV's botted PvP because of what a pointlessly long grind it was.
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http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Relic_Weapons
 
Kay...
 
I definitely see a night and day difference, but not in FF14's favor.
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For starters, I can't say I believe you, or at the very least you don't mean full abilities/amps. 
 
So because FFXIV is a larger game than WS, you are docking points, great.
 
FFXIV is built around not making an alt, there's simply no point. 
 
Instead of comparing how long it takes a fresh FFXIV char to get into raids, you should be comparing how long it takes to get another class into raids. Leveling the 2nd class gets a flat 50% bonus to exp, along with lots of other systems to speed that process up. Gearing for the raids is even simpler, as gear is cross class and the lower tier of tome currency, which equates to the entry level raid gear, is always in abundance. If you 2nd class is the same role as your first, you literally just need a weapon, that's it.
 
Again, you are only making yourself look like a delusional fanboy by claiming FFXIV has more grind. 
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			Ok, I didn't read past the OP, because there's a significant flaw in the reasoning. To make 220p from CREDD, you'd need to buy at least 15 of them, and hope the price doesn't drop below 15p before you sell all 15 of them. Adding that much CREDD to the market will invariably drop the price and you'll either have a very long wait to sell your (at least) 15 at 15p a pop or you'll need to buy MORE CREDD to reach the 220p. I'm not even going to go into how much RL money that is....	
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FFARR's launch endgame was the most obnoxious grind I've seen in a mainstream MMO in the West. It might have changed, I haven't logged in over a year. But my god those boring ass 10+ player endgame dungeons were so effing grindy. I remember calculating the number of runs I'd have to do to get the currency I needed for my first real pre-raid upgrade... I literally uninstalled and canceled my sub when I saw the numbers.
 
Again, it could well be changed now, but WS's journey into raids strikes me as more fun and challenging, and less lengthy.
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{| class="blockquote"
Ok, I didn't read past the OP, because there's a significant flaw in the reasoning. To make 220p from CREDD, you'd need to buy at least 15 of them, and hope the price doesn't drop below 15p before you sell all 15 of them. Adding that much CREDD to the market will invariably drop the price and you'll either have a very long wait to sell your (at least) 15 at 15p a pop or you'll need to buy MORE CREDD to reach the 220p. I'm not even going to go into how much RL money that is....
----
			While you are right mae, the basic point is that if you spend $ you get plat, whether or not it's a flat rate or you losing/gaining profit off of it. 	
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{| class="blockquote"
A high cost does not equate to a flaw in reasoning. If anything, pistols better than those that can take 200+ hours of GA to obtain would logically be priced that high. But again, the actual cost is besides the point, which is that such power can be bought with $. 
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{| class="blockquote"
A high cost does not equate to a flaw in reasoning. If anything, pistols better than those that can take 200+ hours of GA to obtain would logically be priced that high. But again, the actual cost is besides the point, which is that such power can be bought with $. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Didn't realize I had to be so straightforward about it, read into what I was saying, never said they could not buy from it.  It's just the sheer amount of credd needed to get the item in question it is improbable that it would happen.
 
Flawed logic (which I doubt) or not, it's still true.  Money doesn't make the player, especially in a game like wildstar (it could, but majority-wise it is not the case).
----
			
P2W is such a misused term now that I can't respect anyone who uses it anymore, even if they're using it correctly.
 
No. Just, no.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
6 credd on the EU server
 
A few have more credd then that so... yes it's an option.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The end-game gear in Wildstar is dungeon/raid only.  Plat can't buy that.  
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Got full ability points in 2 days of pvp. 7 amps in another 2 days (also bought full pvp set during this). 
 
After all the changes getting full ability/amp points is really easy.
 
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yasfan mentioned ONE vendor where you could do something equating that and it was actually a bug.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Link please? I'd love to see some official confirmation that it's no longer an option.
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A cosmetic cash shop sounds like a good thing to me, those who wish to buy cosmetic things from the shop could do that, and those who don't want to could choose not to. Content would keep coming regardless. 
Why would that be such a bad thing? Carbine gets money to make the game better for us, people get to buy fluff. It's a win-win.
 
If you would truly like to help Carbine with their financial issues then you should support this at least, Instead of your, sorry to say this, sort of selfish opinions about whatever you might have against a purely cosmetic shop for some reason. 	
----
			Is this actually a thread? This has got to be some elaborate troll. If you honestly think that this game is P2W you might need to go see a doctor about your intelligence. This is the farthest thing from P2W, Everything you have said that is P2W are things that take literally no time to get from random drops and farming. Amp and ability points? Takes a couple hours to get 10/7 if you know what you're doing. People spending more plat on their gear are at an obvious advantage? Well yea, that's called gear progression, Literally anybody can take the effort to get the gear with out having to pay any money.	
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{| class="blockquote"
A cosmetic cash shop sounds like a good thing to me, those who wish to buy cosmetic things from the shop could do that, and those who don't want to could choose not to. Content would keep coming regardless. 
Why would that be such a bad thing?
 
If you would truly like to help Carbine with their financial issues then you should support this at least, Instead of your, sorry to say this, sort of selfish opinions about whatever you might have against a purely cosmetic shop for some reason. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A cosmetic cash shop sounds like a good thing to me, those who wish to buy cosmetic things from the shop could do that, and those who don't want to could choose not to. Content would keep coming regardless. 
Why would that be such a bad thing? Carbine gets money to make the game better for us, people get to buy fluff. It's a win-win.
 
If you would truly like to help Carbine with their financial issues then you should support this at least, Instead of your, sorry to say this, sort of selfish opinions about whatever you might have against a purely cosmetic shop for some reason. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
One of the main points of the thread is that despite being P2W, the sky has not fallen. That should be a huge reassurance for those worried about a cash shop ruining the game. It seems though that many have already decided to be against the concept, despite the logic showing them that it's already a part of the game. The contradiction of not wanting a cash shop despite CREDD being a thing is ridiculous. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Is this actually a thread? This has got to be some elaborate troll. If you honestly think that this game is P2W you might need to go see a doctor about your intelligence. This is the farthest thing from P2W, Everything you have said that is P2W are things that take literally no time to get from random drops and farming. Amp and ability points? Takes a couple hours to get 10/7 if you know what you're doing. People spending more plat on their gear are at an obvious advantage? Well yea, that's called gear progression, Literally anybody can take the effort to get the gear with out having to pay any money.
----
			
I just kinda skimmed through here, but...
 
I think that IF people have a problem with such things as the example you present of basically players selling to other players certain items voluntarily of their own will along side the CREDD system; The discussion should veer more toward asking "what items should and should not be tradeable" and "what pricing should be lowered and or raised". I feel that would be far more productive than what is currently going on here.
 
I personally see nothing wrong at all with the cited examples of people selling BoE raid gear since they are willfully doing it for whatever reason and it'd be no different with or without CREDD. I remember in Rift,WoW, and a few others we used to sell raid spots for guild bank funds when we had content on farm and also give away valuable things to people in other games as well that you wouldn't see without doing certain level of content. How they got the gold to pay for it we didn't ask(because it was quite a huge amount). The initial argument comes off extremely broad and very skewed to me that pushes one to read it as "well we should just not have trade or CREDD"	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
With CREDD, Plat == $.
 
With non-craftible runesets (that are far better than most) on the CX (good luck salvaging for the exact rune you want)
 $ == Power.
 
With BoE gear that are better than Ohmna drops or DS glory gear on the AH,
 $ == Power.
 
I personally define P2W games as those in which the player  can pay money to acquire significant power or skip grinds. If you define P2W differently, that is fine, but I am under the impression that my definition is a fairly common one. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lots of arguments have been given for why cash shops can be destructive to various aspects of the gaming experience. Read around these threads a little deeper, you'll find them easily, and the 'selfish' argument quickly falls apart.
 
The reality is two sides arguing for what they think will be the best play experience. That's it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Out of curiosity - how many people in this thread have bought CREDD to sell to pay for their gear?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A cosmetic cash shop sounds like a good thing to me, those who wish to buy cosmetic things from the shop could do that, and those who don't want to could choose not to. Content would keep coming regardless. 
Why would that be such a bad thing? Carbine gets money to make the game better for us, people get to buy fluff. It's a win-win.
 
If you would truly like to help Carbine with their financial issues then you should support this at least, Instead of your, sorry to say this, sort of selfish opinions about whatever you might have against a purely cosmetic shop for some reason. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I personally define P2W games as those in which the player  can pay money to acquire significant power or skip grinds. If you define P2W differently, that is fine, but I am under the impression that my definition is a fairly common one. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Do we have content nudging us into real money purchases through design? Nope.
 
So what purpose would that shop then serve since those items could already be bought with CREDD? Nothing at all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
With CREDD, Plat == $.
 
With non-craftible runesets (that are far better than most) on the CX (good luck salvaging for the exact rune you want)
 $ == Power.
 
With BoE gear that are better than Ohmna drops or DS glory gear on the AH,
 $ == Power.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
One of the main points of the thread is that despite being P2W, the sky has not fallen. That should be a huge reassurance for those worried about a cash shop ruining the game. It seems though that many have already decided to be against the concept, despite the logic showing them that it's already a part of the game. The contradiction of not wanting a cash shop despite CREDD being a thing is ridiculous. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I just kinda skimmed through here, but...
 
I think that IF people have a problem with such things as the example you present of basically players selling to other players certain items voluntarily of their own will along side the CREDD system; The discussion should veer more toward asking "what items should and should not be tradeable" and "what pricing should be lowered and or raised". I feel that would be far more productive than what is currently going on here.
 
I personally see nothing wrong at all with the cited examples of people selling BoE raid gear since they are willfully doing it for whatever reason and it'd be no different with or without CREDD. I remember in Rift,WoW, and a few others we used to sell raid spots for guild bank funds when we had content on farm and also give away valuable things to people in other games as well that you wouldn't see without doing certain level of content. How they got the gold to pay for it we didn't ask(because it was quite a huge amount). The initial argument comes off extremely broad and very skewed to me that pushes one to read it as "well we should just not have trade or CREDD"
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Personally I feel those last 2 things are things worth reporting as broken/incorrect to Carbine.  Every place I've worked/seen, if something easy to get has better stats than the stuff that requires dedication it's almost always an error.  You should try documenting that stuff and bugging it/posting a feedback thread on it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, we do. Partial Primal Patterns and Tarnished Eldan Gifts are both indisputably in place to sink plat from the economy.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The reason it's a sticking point is because there is no "with or without CREDD". CREDD is there, meaning someone can directly buy raid gear with $.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sure, and all plat comes from playing the game. Every single bit of it. There is no plat in the game that hasn't come from someone playing WS.
 
That's different from saying that these items encourage players to spend real life money. Again, I know all about these items and collect them, and never once have I thought about using real life money to purchase them.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Dumb Stuff
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While the DS gear may have been an oversight, I'm pretty dang sure the intentional grind of ability/amp points, runes, PPPs, TEGs, ect are working as intended. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sudden "Plat walls" like that are directly designed to encourage players to buy them with Plat. What that also means is that players who don't have the Plat are more than "nudged" to buy Plat via CREDD. They do encourage players to spend real life money.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not the definition I've heard. Usually P2W implies that a significant portion of the game's income stream comes from encouraging players to use real life money for in game power. Not whether it's possible, but whether it's the core way the game makes money.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Except they can't. They can buy raid gear that someone earned with plat that someone earned which they traded for by purchasing game time.
 
CREDD is trading one players time for another players money. That's not the same as directly buying raid gear.
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{| class="blockquote"
Dude, I know you are smarter than this. It is irrefutably direct, even if a player driven market effects the price. 
 
See DS gear on AH. Buy xCREDD with $. Sell xCREDD for P. Buy gear on AH. 
 
It doesn't get more "direct" than that. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
All I see is the same old people with the same arguments that really only boils down to you guys sounding really selfish.
 
A cash-shop would be of great help and possibly dramatically improve Carbines financial issues, you need to think of the bigger picture here.
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{| class="blockquote"
http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/aD0pzBN_460sa_v1.gif
 
http://www.amk.cool/images/articles/default/pay-to-win-games-de184a-5131118-1400093856.gif
 
In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
 
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
http://nl.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
 
Here is your definition also included
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win
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{| class="blockquote"
What sudden plat walls? In this game it takes me maybe 3 hours to farm 10 plat. Thats with full raid gear and i optimize my farm so much. Other people may take them longer but at no point does anybody feel like they HAVE to buy credd.
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{| class="blockquote"
Dude, I know you are smarter than this. It is irrefutably direct, even if a player driven market effects the price. 
 
See DS gear on AH. Buy xCREDD with $. Sell xCREDD for P. Buy gear on AH. 
 
It doesn't get more "direct" than that. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not the definition I've heard. Usually P2W implies that a significant portion of the game's income stream comes from encouraging players to use real life money for in game power. Not whether it's possible, but whether it's the core way the game makes money.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Gear on AH < Gear earned by Raids (with the exception of those bizarre level 74 BoE bits).
Gear on AH requires level 50 to be most effective.
 
Plat can't buy levels or the best in-game gear.  Not directly.  THAT would be P2W.  Right now this system is a monetization system only.  P2W, literally "pay to win" would mean paying money to achieve things in this game that would take other players actual investment.  Any player can buy shit off the AH.  Any one of them.  P2W would be logging in, dumping $300 and having a Level 50 with DS gear waiting after clicking "Buy".
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Yes, it does get more direct than that. Carbine offers gear in a shop at a set price and a player buys it with real life money.
 
In your equation you are leaving out people in the transaction. There is also the player selling the plat, which was earned by playing the game. That's a huge difference from buying a piece of gear from Carbine. In this case, both the seller of the gear and the seller of the plat have gotten something in return for their efforts and Carbine has mostly just acted as a broker (and gets a small profit for it).
----
			
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Dude, the BoE i74 gear is right below BiS. So your claim is that because it's not BiS it's not P2W? Or are you claiming that $ doesn't directly translate to AH gear?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
And isn't also that the cash items aren't available/obtainable in the game?(curious here, I've never played a P2W game :P)
----
			
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Just to clarify, are you saying that your first comment was in error? Because you seem to be running away with those goalposts over there.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Nnnnnnnnneither?  o_O
 
My claim is that you can't use plat to immediately get 50 levels
 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Why would that be pay 2 win?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you've used money to invalidate the process that's core to the game just to get an advantage.  You've marginalized everyone who has actually played 1-50 simply by purchasing the experience of doing so.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Because you've used money to invalidate the process that's core to the game just to get an advantage.  You've marginalized everyone who has actually played 1-50 simply by purchasing the experience of doing so.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And isn't also that the cash items aren't available/obtainable in the game?(curious here, I've never played a P2W game :P)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And i74 gear, amp/ability points, runes, houses, housing items, do not do this?
----
			in fact all games are p2w, you can see account sellers with full level characters and full purples in warcraft, you can notice that person just getting used to an engineer max level and with some legendaries in gw2, those accounts can be bought for USD 100 or 200.but the thing here is that if you go to p2w by the credd way ill be much more expensive cause you will end spending like USD 300 (for real be p2w, if you spend less than that you will have money but not the power to overdrive every effort in the game, like a boost but not enough powerfull) for everything you need, in that moment you just put in a balance use credd for p2w or buy a used account (for this purpose investigated a little, saw a stalker dps almost all orange in USD 150, just saying) the credd market balance itself to the point is extremely expensive to become p2w by that way and that discourage the explotation of the system.	
----
			
I brought this up in another thread:
{| class="blockquote"
The existence of CREDD already puts people on unequal footing by allowing them to, essentially, buy gold, and use that gold to buy things in game that they wouldn't have been able to afford if they were just paying a sub fee.
 
Black Hole Black and Supernova White dyes are currently going for 49p and 52p, respectively, on the CX on Entity. CREDD is going for 15p. What's to stop someone from purchasing a few CREDD and selling them in-game so they can buy those dyes? Is spending $80 on CREDD to get enough platinum to purchase a rare dye on the CX really that different from spending real money to purchase it from a Cash Shop? There are also a bunch of Power 1904 weapons on the AH for between 20 and 30p, and a Power 3226 sword for 140p. I can't imagine someone willing to shell out $180+ in order to get that sword, but they could. Certainly they would have an advantage over players who didn't spend the money. Granted, it would be different from putting something exclusively in the Cash Shop, but the effect is the same, in that players that pay get more.
----
			Just wanted to add a vote for a cash shop for cosmetic items.	
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{| class="blockquote"
One of the main points of the thread is that despite being P2W, the sky has not fallen. That should be a huge reassurance for those worried about a cash shop ruining the game. It seems though that many have already decided to be against the concept, despite the logic showing them that it's already a part of the game. The contradiction of not wanting a cash shop despite CREDD being a thing is ridiculous. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
That's where differences lie. I actually enjoy the leveling of the game, so I have tons of alts. I don't raid; don't have time.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That's not a contradiction. Did I pay real money for the things I have in-game? Nope. Would I have to were a cash shop released? Yes, if I wanted what was on it.
----
			
Okay. So lets go off the logic in the first post. The sky has fallen. The game is no doing well financially. Nor has it from the very start. From what you have stated this is THE pivotal focus of the game. Meaning it is likely to blame.
 
Your logic by your own admission indicates it is a severe problem that needs to be resolved. Not one that is causing no issue.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
in fact all games are p2w, you can see account sellers with full level characters and full purples in warcraft, you can notice that person just getting used to an engineer max level and with some legendaries in gw2, those accounts can be bought for USD 100 or 200.
 
but the thing here is that if you go to p2w by the credd way ill be much more expensive cause you will end spending like USD 300 (for real be p2w, if you spend less than that you will have money but not the power to overdrive every effort in the game, like a boost but not enough powerfull) for everything you need, in that moment you just put in a balance use credd for p2w or buy a used account (for this purpose investigated a little, saw a stalker dps almost all orange in USD 150, just saying) the credd market balance itself to the point is extremely expensive to become p2w by that way and that discourage the explotation of the system.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Okay. So lets go off the logic in the first post. The sky has fallen. The game is no doing well financially. Nor has it from the very start. From what you have stated this is THE pivotal focus of the game. Meaning it is likely to blame.
 
Your logic by your own admission indicates it is a severe problem that needs to be resolved. Not one that is causing no issue.
----
			
There's nothing money can buy that is better than what I can earn in game. That's the beginning and end of it.
 
And if you feel like that's pay to win, I'd get used to it because thats your future.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There's nothing money can buy that is better than what I can earn in game. That's the beginning and end of it.
 
And if you feel like that's pay to win, I'd get used to it because thats your future.
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In a Pay to win scenario, the in-game item is usually created and transferred to you when you pay money to the company running the game.
 
In Wildstar, someone had to earn that drop that has a super low drop chance, and then sell the item to you.  Whether its a 74 BoE from DS, or an amp point/ability point, or a black/white dye, or whatever it is.  Any other BoE item, it comes from somewhere.  Someone, somewhere earned it, at a very very low drop rate, and that's where the value is generated.  
 
The CREDD system does exactly what it was advertised as.  It allows people with less play time and more real life money to obtain in game currency to do whatever they want with it.  It does NOT allow you to exchange real life money to generate items that don't exist (bypassing the low drop chance that makes these rare BoEs so special).
 
If you can't understand this, you do not have a clear understanding of what people mean by Pay to win.
 
Just so you know, you could also buy 30 primal patterns @10g each, or 3 plat, and turn it in for a Hopper of Hued Hardware.  These have around 3-5% chance at a legendary ilvl 69 piece (which is arguably equivalent to a purple 74 piece because of extra rune power).  So for about 100 plat you can get a random legendary piece of gear with random stats based on your armor type. So lets say you buy yourself a 74 purple weapon and get 10 legendaries from Hopper of Hued Hardware to fill the other slots.  Let's pretend they are all magically for your spec and you get all 10 pieces.  That would cost 1200p.  Buying 1200p to get these 10 items + a weapon, at an exchange rate of $1 - 1p means the person is spending $1200 over the course of 80 days, since there is a limit of 1 CREDD purchase per 24 hours.  Realistically though, you wouldn't get all 10 pieces with the stats you want, since its based on armor type.  You can expect 1 of 4 pieces to be your preferred stats.  You can also expect to get 2 boots before you ever see a pants, or vice versa, because RNG.
 
A full 74 purple weapon + 10 legendary 68 piece set, bought from real life money -> CREDD is going to cost you well over $2000 and half a year of buying credd every day to even get anywhere close to.  Not to mention, the weapons and primal patterns that would be consumed have to actually be obtained by someone first.  The prices of those will definitely go WAY up if people start doing this.  The price of CREDD would plummet if people were trying to sell 1 a day for half a year.
 
This discussion is seriously a joke.
 
Pretty sure you're not not "winning" if you're in 68/74 gear that cost you thousands of real life dollars.	
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{| class="blockquote"
That's the baseline definition of P2W. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In a Pay to win scenario, an in-game item is created and transfered to you when you pay money to the company running the game.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Again, I'm not saying I dislike the way it is nor that it should change, only that we recognize it for what it is. Right now, people can spend $ and get serious in-game power for it. That's P2W, end of story.
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{| class="blockquote"
For what it's worth, those people who are capable/willing to recognize reality even when it's unflattering have generally recognized the reality of what you're saying. The hype machine is in full denial mode, but then again that's what they do and they're very good at it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm not gonna let anyone tell me an opinion is fact. Ever.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just to clarify, you do accept that players can buy i74 raid gear with $, correct?
 
The contention arises from you not perceiving the $ purchase of this gear as P2W?
 
While this ground is a little nebulous, I'm hesitant to call this an "opinion" (or a fact for that matter). I am providing what I am under the impression is the widely held definition of P2W and demonstrating that WS fits this definition to a T.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
In this example, that in-game item that is created is CREDD. Just like any other P2W game, the $ go straight to those running the game, and the purchaser gets the virtual item. The only difference here is that a player driven market determines the value of that item that was bought for $. I personally think the CREDD price is being controlled a bit more than people would assume, but am not about to open that can of worms.
 
Ultimately, it's not the price that is the issue, it's the system. I would not be able to make these claims anywhere remotely as easily if the gear was BoP as it used to be. I do think the current ability/amp points and rune system is enough to call this game P2W however.
 
Again, I'm not saying I dislike the way it is nor that it should change, only that we recognize it for what it is. Right now, people can spend $ and get serious in-game power for it. That's P2W, end of story.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
there is a limit of 1 CREDD purchase per 24 hours
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{| class="blockquote"
You are trying to push it as fact and put a definition on it, don't back out now.
 
 
What does "winning" at a game mean to you?
Can the whole of "winning" be obtained in the game as is, without paying?
Does paying make you better than anyone who doesn't pay can achieve?
 
Pay to Win is an opinion.
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