109300-you-promised-hard-core-you-actually-delivered-tedium

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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.	
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			cool story	
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Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
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			If you can't get silver at Malgrave Trail then you shouldn't be worrying about getting to raids.	
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Out of all the tedious requirements of the attunement process, you pick the easiest, least tedious one to complain about...
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
it's a never ending treadmill
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			See, this is what happens when you nerf the hard requirement, people come out of the woodwork wanting nerfs to the easier stuff.	
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're not complaining about the difficulty, but rather the tediousness of it(it took me a few reads) They're saying Malgrave is tedious, but OVERALL(im guessing they mean dungeon silvers) is not puggable.
 
Malgrave is admittedly a bore after the first few times going through, but c'mon that being placed outside the space ship thing is hilarious...
 
If that is the case then OP, Carbine is reducing dungeon silver requirement to bronze. So.....there ya go...
They're also reducing number of primal patterns and working on a change for world bossses.
 
Should be quicker to get attuned in that regard.
 
ALSO there is some content incoming adding instances and some other stuff to do...(yay....dailies....wooo)	
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Attunement is about commitment. If you can't make the commitment to attune you have no business raiding. Same goes for new members. It's just the chance you take when you invite them into your guild. I like to think that Carbine is trying to teach you entitlement POS that lesson that alot of us have learned throughout the history of MMO's that Bliztard obliterated with their hand feeding designs. Don't like attuning GTFO and go play WOW, you are useless.
 
And no you do not deserve to see the whole game if your sorry ass can't work for it.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Attunement is about commitment. If you can't make the commitment to attune you have no business raiding. Same goes for new members. It's just the chance you take when you invite them into your guild. I like to think that Carbine is trying to teach you entitlement POS that lesson that alot of us have learned throughout the history of MMO's that Bliztard obliterated with their hand feeding designs. Don't like attuning GTFO and go play WOW, you are useless.
 
And no you do not deserve to see the whole game if your sorry ass can't work for it.
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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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Obligatory reply:
Enjoy your dead game when too many people have left, like you told them to...  :rolleyes:
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Well this got heated pretty quick I see...
 
*popcorn*	
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I would rather see this game dead than have raiding turned into LFR.
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Well this got heated pretty quick I see...
 
*popcorn*
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I would rather see this game dead than have raiding turned into LFR.
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			If I wanted a casual-core game, I would go play WoW.  It already exists.  I don't go there demanding that the reason you want to play it be taken away.  Don't come here and demand the reason I want to play (hard raiding) be nerfed to make it a loot pinata for you.	
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Technically endless tedium is the very definition of hard core in an MMO.
 
The simple fact is there are only so many ways to make content challenging.	
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If you can't get silver at Malgrave Trail then you shouldn't be worrying about getting to raids.
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So go play EVE and leave the MMOs to the people who want to be social and game.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Aren't you gone yet?
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If I wanted a casual-core game, I would go play WoW.  It already exists.  I don't go there demanding that the reason you want to play it be taken away.  Don't come here and demand the reason I want to play (hard raiding) be nerfed to make it a loot pinata for you.
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			Simple answer.  If you have 2 guilds with 30ish lvl 50's each, have them server xfer to be together, and then you will have 1 decent sized guild that could raid with ease.  Or find other guilds on each respective server int he same boat to merge.  #Boom #Problemsover #Movealong	
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If you can't get silver at Malgrave Trail then you shouldn't be worrying about getting to raids.
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Cause Eve is anything like this game?  No, I want hardcore WoW back as this game was promised to be.  So how about you go and play Hello Kitty! Island Adventure since it seems all you want is a King MMO.
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 Don't come here and demand the reason I want to play (hard raiding) be nerfed to make it a loot pinata for you.
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{| class="blockquote"
If I wanted a casual-core game, I would go play WoW.  It already exists.  I don't go there demanding that the reason you want to play it be taken away.  Don't come here and demand the reason I want to play (hard raiding) be nerfed to make it a loot pinata for you.
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I'm not demanding anything but a healthy population.
I'll adapt to whatever* changes that requires of Wildstar.
If even harder raids are what it takes to get more people, fine with me. They would probably be beyond my abilities, but I would prefer it to the game shutting down.
As I said, your attitude is simply selfish.
But I don't expect you to understand. I've been through this argument with too many of your kind.
 
 
 
*up to a certain degree
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Bah, let those "people" rant all they want, Tenner.
 
They'll be gone soon enough. Those kind are always some of the first to jump ship.
 
Maybe once all those "people" are gone and the game is forced to go F2P, we'll be able to get some peace ... for the twenty minutes before the Freeloading Heathen Masses swarm us.	
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Did OP miss attunement will soon be easymode ?
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			Did OP miss attunement will soon be easymode ?	
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You'll never listen to reason.
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 You want a Mists of Pandaria WoW Clone,  I want a Vanilla/TBC WoW Clone.  
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When one lacks all reason, one does what one must.
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LOL, yeah.  Because not wanting Wildstar to become Hello Kitty! Island Adventure is without reason.
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If it means sending the grindcores back to EVE or wherever, bring on Sanrio.
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Weird, in my guild, we required people to be on the Silver Dungeons part of attunement because you can PUG the adventures and get Gold.  Also, why would you be the only member of your guild helping members get attuned?  Sounds like you have a problem of having too many selfish people in your guild.
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If it means sending the grindcores back to EVE or wherever, bring on Sanrio.
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Weird, I never said I was the only one, sounds like you have a problem reading.
 
Admitting only folks that have reached the silver dungeon attunement step doesn't solve the problem of having to run silver dungeons over and over again as guild membership turns over.
 
As I said, that isn't hard core, it's tedious.  They promised hard core, but before you can get your 20 there you gotta run the hamster wheel endlessly.
 
And as the numbers show, barely anyone is actually raiding.
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Let me guess, if King came out with an MMO, you would jump ship immediately to it?
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I would rather see this game dead than have raiding turned into LFR.
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			Only on the Wildstar forums will you see people complaining that a game designed with the hardcore in mind is too hard and should be made easier for the sole purpose of increasing numbers.	
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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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I don't understand how Malgrave trail is "boring". The adventure that has the most choices, on a giant map, is boring? .....?
 
I think it's boring because every time I get in there people say "THIS IS EASIEST, PICK IT" which makes it seem boring. It's pure laziness. While I'm on the note of pure laziness...I also think it's funny when people say "attunement is tedious" when it has 11 different steps. If the attunement process were 3 steps instead of 11 steps, people would complain it's too short and a waste of time. Attunments are supposed to be lengthy and difficult. They're supposed to take you all over and be somewhat challenging each step of the way. People don't realize what they've been given. If the process weren't long and complicated, what would be the point???? It would be boring as hell with no gates to raiding, just like we have leveling from 1-50. Nothing worth having is plainly given.
 
Some people think grinding dungeons, world bosses, boss puzzles, rep and hunting for items all over the world is COOL. If you don't, there's plenty of other snoozefests for you to snooze through.	
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All King has to do is slap the 'hardcore' title on their MMO and you'll be all over that grind like white on rice.
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This is what happens, when something difficult gets nerfed, the whiners focus on other things.
 
 
You just said it yourself, you are okay with this game getting easier.  I am not.  Why is it so hard to want an MMO like this that actually has some modicum of difficulty to it?  Why do people that you support always have to come and demand loot pinatas?
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The difference is, no.  I mean, if they actually put stuff in place to make their game hardcore like Carbine did with Wildstar.  But they don't do that, their business model is placating people like you.
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I don't understand how Malgrave trail is "boring".
 
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The game isn't really that difficult though.  A lot of the raid boss mechanics and encounters I've come across so far are a lot more tedious than hard.
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I would rather see this game dead than have raiding turned into LFR.
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So you personally ran 50 people through attunement...yet aren't the only one to do it in your guild?  You have a problem holding people on in your guild then.  First, I would solve that problem.
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The stupid cows move extremely slowly and the distances between the interesting choices/stops are huge.
It's just too much bland filler. :P
 
I actually like the concept.
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Maybe for you, but obviously not for the people who complain about silver adventures.
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			I don't really know what part of it is hardcore. The crafted items are better designed than the raid items, the raids are difficult to get to, thus exclusive...but this exclusivity doesn't really translate into much reward. Lots of stick, not so much carrot for actually being the mule. 	
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Maybe for you, but obviously not for the people who complain about silver adventures.
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 I haven't been 50 for long, but aren't there more loot tables, more bosses? Isn't more variety than typical dungeon design better?
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I just wish Carbine would come out and flat out state what they mean with hardcore. Hardcore as in difficulty or Hardcore as in time investment or both. So we can finally bring this silly back and forth game to an end.
 
@Sacramento
Maybe lower your defenses a little bit and realize that actually nobody here wants the difficulty to be lowered.	
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			I can't take complaints about Veteran Adventures seriously. Before I moved on to Dungeons it was shocking when you didn't get gold lol. As far as Malgrave is concerned you can just medal it and never return.	
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*continues eating popcorn*
 
Just wanted to chime in, but if you want Malgrave to go faster, go with a group of all explorers. They actually end up going too fast if you have 5 XD	
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Things worth having are not just given.
 
Think about that for a second and about how that relates to our previous experiences with gated content.
 
The journey to get there was just as much a reward as stepping inside a giant raid with 20+ other people.
 
If we shortened the attunement to 3 steps, would it be better (so you could recruit one more novice player)? Or overall would it be meaningless?
 
You might say attunement is meaningless to begin with. Why aren't we level 50 to begin with then? The journey to grow stronger, is a natural law of physics. No one is born a god and all are bound by the laws of practice, learning, and evolving. Attunement is a leveling process at 50, endgame level cap.
 
If WoW's Molten Core attunement process was not there to begin with, if there was no cool, somewhat mysterious npc route to gaining 'entry' into the most elite playground in the game--the game would not have taken off in popularity and been where it is today.
 
Sure this game has problems but people don't really understand there's a good reason to gate content and to have paths players travel along, not just senseless combat and rote turn-ins every step of the way.	
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Well, you're probably going to get your wish.
 
Won't you feel good about yourself when not even you uber-leets can play? All because you're so important, you couldn't see fit to share.
 
Ah. Everything that's wrong with humanity today. Well done. You're part of the problem.
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I think most of the people here don't want the game to be easy mode. Everyone have made it pretty clear what they want is interesting content with a good level of difficulty. I don't know why people still argue on that. We all want a better game and everyone here have the same goal. 
 
If someone say tedious it doesn't mean that he want free epic or easy mode.
If someone say the loot is really bad for the time you put in it doesnt mean that he want free epic or easy mode.
 
We all want that game to succeed and bring more people in but for that Wildstar will have to be not just challenging but also rewarding and overall interesting.
 
What about everyone meet in the middle and work all together to make this happen.	
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			it's kind of amazing how many people are reading tedious as difficult.It's like watching one guy say lemons are too sour and the reply is I don't think apples are crunchy enough and you should burn in hell for thinking different!I guess a lot of people are just self imposing blind and stupidand the thought process of those that say they'd rather see the game fail so hard it shuts down rather than have it change at all, crazy peoplethe game is tedious as all hell though, really.Even improving gear is horrible; running a dungeon a 100 times for the right piece, with the right amount of slots, and they have to be the right kind of slotsJust repeatedly running a dungeon for the one item was enough tedium for me, can only hope this rune rework is being hyped so much because it's drop 3 and really fixes it	
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@Dimzu
 
Attunement with a meaning is all fine and dandy but there is a difference between:
 
"You can only go in there after you killed that giant thing over there + his evil brothers in skirts"
and
"You can only go in there after you picked up 20.000 rolls of toilet paper"	
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@Dimzu
 
"You can only go in there after you picked up 20.000 rolls of toilet paper"
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it's kind of amazing how many people are reading tedious as difficult.
It's like watching one guy say lemons are too sour and the reply is I don't think apples are crunchy enough and you should burn in hell for thinking different!
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LFR is fail, if you are going to implement this, please don't let them get the good rewards that the people who payed attention to your direction of this game from the beginning are deserved of. Make their raids easier, I actually don't mind but don't kill our content because people aren't as skilled or patient, bronze rewards is great, help us get more players attuned quicker, bring players in, hopefully, but keep the difficulty.
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@Dimzu
 
"You can only go in there after you killed that giant thing over there + his evil brothers in skirts"
and
"You can only go in there after you picked up 20.000 rolls of toilet paper"
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			Other than class balancing and fixing things in regards to PVP the game is solid.  If you cant handle a attunement process which in all honestly the only hard part about it is World bosses. Wildstar is not the game for you.	
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Other than class balancing and fixing things in regards to PVP the game is solid.  If you cant handle a attunement process which in all honestly the only hard part about it is World bosses Wildstar is not the game for you.
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Quite frankly, you are TOTALLY FREAKING AMAZING!
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In the world of MMOs, hardcore has always had underlying tedium in it.  Always.
 
This game does have its hardcore parts as promised.  I think a lot of us are just finding that while it's what we initially thought we wanted, it's not. 
 
Speaking for myself, I was excited about the "hardcore" aspect of the game, because I miss being a hardcore MMO player.  But I'm older now.  And returning to such a playstyle has made me realize that I miss the feeling/fun I had in the past, not the actual style of gameplay.
 
There's really nothing wrong with the attunement... it's just getting silvers which means getting some gear and learning how to use interrupts in a timely fashion.  It's not that hard.  But it's unforgiving and takes planning. 
 
I'm a bit disappointed to realize that I do want a more casual game, because I really, really love the fast-paced free-form combat style of WildStar.  I wish i could transplant it into WoW.  I'd be set.
 
Oh well.	
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			Ugh, beating all these bosses in Super Mario is tedious.  Why can't I just skip to bowser and be done with it?  Seriously, none of them are even challenging, just tedious.  Why do I have to jump on their heads 3 times?!? Isn't once sufficient?  I mean, I keep dying to the first one over and over, but its not like its hard or anything, its just tedious having to try it over and over and eventually I run out of lives and have to start all over again!!  I shouldn't have to farm the easy levels for lives, just give me infinite lives to skip all this tedium.	
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Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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			People complain about wow's lfr but they also have Hardmode non lfr raiding. So they cover both ends of the spectrum. Something for everyone. Just saying. I haven't played wow in 4 years but I think apppealing the the largest deomgraphic is a smart thing to do business wise.	
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@Avarazac
Sure tedium is part of mmos. (Loved FFXI so much but damn stuff there took so long to complete that is not even funny.) and yes like you said it feels great if you accomplish something after a while. But the underlying reason why something took so long at least hast to be meaningful.
 
@Dimzu
 
Yes I was exaggerating :) Don't get me wrong I don't mind lengthy attunement quests. But it has to be interesting and challenging along the way. We have to get rid of design ideas that are just there to waste the players time and drag out  content as much as possible. I know that is asking for alot because all the time gating mechanism are there for one and only reason. Content creation takes time. I do enough cg myself to know how long asset creatiion takes from concept to approval and implementation and that is just one part of the whole. Sadly if left unchecked MMO players consume content way faster than it can be created, so the developer have to stretch it out as much as possible. But most of the time developer go the tedious route instead of the challenging one.
 
Please not that I was talking about general mmo concepts and this doesn't apply to carbine specifically.	
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If I wanted a casual-core game, I would go play WoW.  It already exists.  I don't go there demanding that the reason you want to play it be taken away.  Don't come here and demand the reason I want to play (hard raiding) be nerfed to make it a loot pinata for you.
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Weird, never said I personally ran 50 people through attunement, can you read?
 
Also, they don't just leave our guild, they leave the game.  Can't do much about that except maybe make a forum post hoping Carbine will change things so they don't.
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And that is the difference between you and me, we have different "degrees" that we are willing to let this game change.  You want a Mists of Pandaria WoW Clone,  I want a Vanilla/TBC WoW Clone.  You want more people at the sake of game vision, I want game vision at the sake of people.  The difference is, you don't need 11 million people to have a successful MMO.
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Well, there are really two types of casuals.  There are the bad ones who complain about stuff everything, and there are the good ones who are skilled and actually use their time productively.  You seem to be closer to the latter.  I firmly believe you can do every part of this game on a casual level, it's just that you can't be bad.  BadCasual-core doesn't have the same ring to it though.
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But I thought earlier a few weeks ago you were calling me and my guild bad players :P
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The thing a lot of you supposed "hardcore" types are missing here is that the OP isn't complaining about the level of difficulty of anything. Hell, you're not even understanding the difference between "difficult" and "tedious", since that's the entire basis of the complaint. Since WoW keeps getting brought up as a game that was "dumbed down" to "cater to casuals" and whatever other cliche garbage phrases are being thrown about, what you should realize is that back in the supposed glory days of WoW raiding, everything was tedious. Attunement was a pretty huge barrier for most guilds and only a tiny percentage of the game's population ever got to raid. And for the folks that were raiding, things like farming gold to keep enough income for paying for repair costs, farming specific +resist gear, farming mats for potions and dozens of other chores that had to be kept up with to even keep your rare spot on the raid team was common in just about every raiding guild.
 
And you know what the funny part is? Even the raiders complained about it endlessly. All those hardcore folks who strutted around in their Tier 2 armor hated all the other stuff that was required to do the thing they loved. I'll agree with anyone who says that all that crap made the raiding successes feel sweeter, but that's only because the good parts are what you remember most. Everyone enjoys thinking back about the first time they killed a raid boss, but fewer are willing to admit that all the stuff leading up to that kill was a total bore. At the time, it wasn't fun at all. It was a list of chores you had to complete before you even started having fun and one of the best things Blizzard ever did was move away from that type of tedium. Not only did it make completely logical business sense to get more people into previously inaccessible content, it made sense because it was and is a video game. Sure, I have no doubt that some people truly enjoyed the literal work they had to spend hours doing, but I can assure you those people were and are in the minority by a long shot. 	
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Hardcore = challenging + time consuming.
 
so called 'tedious' is one half of the hardcore equation.	
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There should be an attunement process to post. That would get rid of most of you. 
 
Op's point is that this attunement process sucks and will kill the game. It does and might. If you don't understand why, then you aren't paying attention to people who are leaving the game.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Hardcore = challenging + time consuming.
 
so called 'tedious' is one half of the hardcore equation.
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{| class="blockquote"
Hardcore = challenging + time consuming.
 
so called 'tedious' is one half of the hardcore equation.
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Don't we ever get tired of the hardcore/casual debate?  It doesn't apply.
 
There's going to be some amount of time investment.  It shouldn't be in waiting for the RNG to pop you out gear you can use after clearing the content thirty or forty times.  And there's going to be some amount of attunement, just not an overall timer and they may reduce the world bosses you need for that.  People want rewards to keep running 5 mans after they're not necessary for attunement anymore.
 
Honestly, we're going to need to take some time to get things we want in this game, or any game of merit.  There are some time sinks that aren't regular enough, though.  Nobody minds gearing up if they know they'll get what they need and know when it will be.  Random numbers aren't hardcore and fixing them isn't casual, it just isn't practically feasible and fixing them is a way to make dungeon running a viable way to have fun and get stuff when you're not raiding.  Nobody (or at least not many) people want the actual content of the raids, dungeons, or adventures made less difficult to clear.
 
I think it would help in the whole tedium v difficulty debate if we're a bit more specific.  Not everything that takes a time investment is by necessity tedious or difficult, and everyone's applying their own definition.  This isn't a race for umbrage.	
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Yea, but its supposed to be Time consuming because of the challenge. No time consuming because it's easy and needs to be done 1000 times.
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I purchased WS because I was hoping for a game that was like vanilla wow. I played vanilla from release and was hoping for a mmo that embraced some of the things that it had. Unfortunately WS doesn't really meet the bill. 
 
My personal WS disappointments:
- small world that has no sense of actually being a world. It just feels like a series of instanced zones you do stuff in.
 
- dull combat system. Once you get a handle on the movement aspect of the combat system it lacks variety. All the classes play about the same with a handful of skills that build and spend resources. I will admit that the healing in WS is a nice change from other games as it isn't wack a mole
 
- End game is not compelling. When I played vanilla wow everytime I logged in it felt that there was something meaningful to do. The complete fail in itemization at endgame along with tieing dungeon rewards to timers makes running dungeons feel like work rather than engaging content. 
 
- 40 man raids. I raided 40 man in vanilla up to Nax and never wanted to see it in a game again. The admin required to keep things going makes me feel like I'm back at work and not having fun. 
 
- Daily quests. Soul crushing sub-killing content from hell. It's not content, it's an attempt to give people something to due when there isn't anything else. I don't remember this crap in vanilla but would the the MMO Gods smite all developers that think this is a good idea. (I really hate dailies, lol)
 
- Attunement. WS attunement is there to slow down progress at endgame and not to "weed out bads" from raids. I have no real problem with an attunement process but WS screwed the pooch on theirs. It's designed to slow you down and nothing else but the problem is that it is so obvious that's all it is. I was looking forward to an attunement more like the Horde Onyxia one and not the sad one we have. If done right it should be something that people enjoy doing even if it takes significant time and is difficult. They really should have made the 20 man attunement short and the 40 man a real challenge, would have helped with keeping people motivated.
 
Couple of random thoughts:
 
 - WS is easier than vanilla wow was in it's first 6 months to a year. I've not been in the raids yet but I haven't seen anything yet that was as hard as endgame in Wow was the first 6 months.
 
- I read the forums a lot and it's interesting that I rarely see any posts calling for dumbing down the content. I see a lot of people screaming to not dumb it down but almost no one actually asking to have it dumbed down.
 
- People are quitting WS because it's boring. Gamers want to have fun with what they are doing and they quit because it isn't fun. If the endgame content is compelling then people will play regardless of how hard it is. 
 
I haven't given up on WS yet and hope the developers can create a compelling endgame before I do but regardless I've got my moneys worth of entertainment so I guess it's ok.	
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Honestly? They're already nerfing the attunement process for the bad players, my guild managed to get 20+ players all 4/4 in no time and into GA... this took I don't know, 3-5 hours or so for world bosses and probably 9-10 hours total (over a few days) of learning how to silver some dungeons for the initial group (including me).
 
It's only time consuming if you're bad at the game honestly and they're already making attunement easy with the coveted bronze medal change. Hardest part should be the rep grind at this point which is tedious in a not so great way and, yes, should probably be removed.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Honestly? They're already nerfing the attunement process for the bad players, my guild managed to get 20+ players all 4/4 in no time and into GA... this took I don't know, 3-5 hours or so for world bosses and probably 9-10 hours total (over a few days) of learning how to silver some dungeons for the initial group (including me).
 
It's only time consuming if you're bad at the game honestly and they're already making attunement easy with the coveted bronze medal change. Hardest part should be the rep grind at this point which is tedious in a not so great way and, yes, should probably be removed.
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{| class="blockquote"
It's only time consuming if you're bad at the game honestly and they're already making attunement easy with the coveted bronze medal change. Hardest part should be the rep grind at this point which is tedious in a not so great way and, yes, should probably be removed.
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I know. I know. *takes a bow*
 
You're pretty dang amazing yourself!
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Totally agree OP but watch out, CarbineCrusaders are around the corner with their "git gud" "omg silver dungeon easy" when they dont actualy understand the word TEDIOUS, it dont refer to hard but to grinding and boring.
 
If i want to raid high end in a gear full of whites ITS MY HARDCORE PROBLEM
 
 
{| class="blockquote"
Do people really have trouble with the rep grind? I had ~30,000 rep upon hitting 50....
 
I guess folks just skip quests or something?
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			my thoughts exactly sir, let the great tide of tedium begin..  this is the downfall of wildstar.. when a game is no longer amusing.. is it really a game anymore? who wants to play a game that is nothing but tedium?	
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my thoughts exactly sir, let the great tide of tedium begin..  this is the downfall of wildstar.. when a game is no longer amusing.. is it really a game anymore? who wants to play a game that is nothing but tedium?
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Totally agree OP but watch out, CarbineCrusaders are around the corner with their "git gud" "omg silver dungeon easy" when they dont actualy understand the word TEDIOUS, it dont refer to hard but to grinding and boring.
 
If i want to raid high end in a gear full of whites ITS MY HARDCORE PROBLEM
 
 
 
how about ppl that lvled with pvp? they are from a separated dimension of play so they should NEVER see a raid or high end PVE.   PVE != PVP = HARDCORE
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I wonder how long until people start saying, "What?  We have to kill this raid boss again this week?  Why can't it just fall over and give us the loot?  We already have proven that we can kill it.  This is TEDIOUS Carbine, not HARDCORE!  Fix it!"
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You guys running out of straw yet? How is this the only counterargument that seems to exist?
 
"I like playing Wildstar, but as soon as you break 50 any meaningful progress changes from a fun ride to trying to kick a dead whale down the beach. The drops are terrible when you even get them, and the 'Big Goal' such a relentless grind that it's a funnel into a leaky bowl - only a few people make it, and seemingly not fast enough to refill the tank of raiders. Some reduction of tedium for the sake of tedium-gating, and the addition of a side road of content for people not on the Attunement Trail, would go a long way."
 
"omfg scrub l2p or gb2WoW, bosses too hard for you, casuals gtfo mah hardcore"
 
Is defense just a reflex, so it doesn't need to be relevant to the claim you're opposing?
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			Well that is the problem with the monthly content drop, I saw the Nexus map at beta and there are a lot of areas of the map that are 'unknown' which I expect will be added in future drops. I expect dungeons and even raids will be in them.	
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in absolute 100% honestly Frigg, a lot of us actually like the time sink. That may sound wierd, but its actually one of the make or break characteristics of an MMO for me. If there isn't content that is going to be both challenging and a lengthy process to obtain or complete, I'm honestly not interested.
 
I 100% agree there should be some more varied progression and expanded rewards (expanded mostly in extent, but also depth), but If W* got rid of it's carrots that are both a difficult challenge AND very time consuming... I honestly would probably leave for something else.
 
I don't think it's defense of Carbine per-see, but defense of a mechanic that many of us actually enjoy at it's core. Obviously YMMV.
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			about 75% gold rate in adventures with pugs so far.	
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I have two 50's on two separate servers, both in guilds of roughly 30ish members, all mmo vets.
 
Leadership of both guilds have basically come to the same conclusion: we will never attain consistent raiding status. Why? Simple answer, attunement. It's not hard core, it's the definition of tedium. As a guild we have to look forward to never ending runs of the same content. And this content isn't hard core, it's just plain tedious. Whomever designed Malgrave Trail needs to be taken out and shot. And pugging these things is for the purely sado masochist.
 
Then, after you've spent all that time getting your 20 ready to raid you lose someone for whatever reason and you get to start the whole process all over again, oh joy.
 
This isn't a hard core end game, it's a never ending treadmill of getting everyone ready.
 
Love the game play, love the classes and group dynamics, but if you don't do something about this end game hamster wheel you're going to suicide your own game.
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The one detail... it's not really possible for a company to deliver enough content to keep an average gamer ( let's say ~10 hour a week) without some timesinks... especially when you assume that the average gamer isn't interested in every aspect of the game ( few people like both PvP and PvE, few people are achievement completionist, few people , except on the RP server, actually care about their houses other than buff... i've heard rumors about some people level'ing up cooking...)
 
It's either timesink or low-quality content.
 
Actually, your average 10 hour a week player can probably complete all of the wildstar AND WoW group content and still have time to play assassin creed, GTA or somethingelse ( not at release, of course, but few month after release.. yes).
 
Now, when you talk to more serious gamer, spending 20+ hour a week on the game, and who strive to do everything the fastest and most efficient way possible... forget it. nobody can produce that amount of content, it's simply not possible.	
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The one detail... it's not really possible for a company to deliver enough content to keep an average gamer ( let's say ~10 hour a week) without some timesinks... especially when you assume that the average gamer isn't interested in every aspect of the game ( few people like both PvP and PvE, few people are achievement completionist, few people , except on the RP server, actually care about their houses other than buff... i've heard rumors about some people level'ing up cooking...)
 
It's either timesink or low-quality content.
 
Actually, your average 10 hour a week player can probably complete all of the wildstar AND WoW group content and still have time to play assassin creed, GTA or somethingelse ( not at release, of course, but few month after release.. yes).
 
Now, when you talk to more serious gamer, spending 20+ hour a week on the game, and who strive to do everything the fastest and most efficient way possible... forget it. nobody can produce that amount of content, it's simply not possible.
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			I guess they didn't release all of the content because they are worried it would take months to fixed all the bugs when they do that so they went ahead with the monthly drop instead.	
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Content locusts who pick an MMO and play it as their only active game, chasing every bit of fresh content the moment it becomes available and only until they beat it once, logging in day after day to complete there's nothing to do, have really only themselves to blame. Making end-game MMO content takes orders of magnitude more time than playing through it does - they'll never get so far behind they're always occupied. Play another game! Get another hobby! Try an element of the game you've never played! Offer or barter for helping groups through dungeon runs to improve the overall server community!
 
But "I made myself bored, make everything longer!" just means those people with more limited time available to them never see anything and stop paying for it. And maybe the content locusts are happy with that. But they don't decide if the servers stay up. Loosen the grip and find a middle ground, or squeeze the life out of it... we've all got a call to make.
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A big issue is that lots of the pro hardcore types think tedium is hardcore.  I have seen people protest against things like attunements being account bound.   Ultimately attunments are double edged swords in games.
 
A perfect system would that in which you could bring unattuned people into the raid with an 80% system,  If 80% have the key you can bring in the rest unkeyed.   And then each boss drops an item that can be used towards the attunement.   Or perhaps even just have an attuning miniboss inside the raid zone that drops an item that fully charges the genesis key.   The reason a system like this is good is that it is good for guild stability But also promotes creation of alts,   And alts mean people play longer.	
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Attunement is about commitment. If you can't make the commitment to attune you have no business raiding. Same goes for new members. It's just the chance you take when you invite them into your guild. I like to think that Carbine is trying to teach you entitlement POS that lesson that alot of us have learned throughout the history of MMO's that Bliztard obliterated with their hand feeding designs. Don't like attuning GTFO and go play WOW, you are useless.
 
And no you do not deserve to see the whole game if your sorry ass can't work for it.
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{| class="blockquote"
A big issue is that lots of the pro hardcore types think tedium is hardcore.  I have seen people protest against things like attunements being account bound.   Ultimately attunments are double edged swords in games.
 
A perfect system would that in which you could bring unattuned people into the raid with an 80% system,  If 80% have the key you can bring in the rest unkeyed.   And then each boss drops an item that can be used towards the attunement.   Or perhaps even just have an attuning miniboss inside the raid zone that drops an item that fully charges the genesis key.   The reason a system like this is good is that it is good for guild stability But also promotes creation of alts,   And alts mean people play longer.
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			You can cap elder gems in adventure and dungeons as it seems I can't make as much money as dailies after I capped elder gems, dailies are more for cash or getting crafting components to use or to sell in the CX.	
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A big issue is that lots of the pro hardcore types think tedium is hardcore.  I have seen people protest against things like attunements being account bound.   Ultimately attunments are double edged swords in games.
 
A perfect system would that in which you could bring unattuned people into the raid with an 80% system,  If 80% have the key you can bring in the rest unkeyed.   And then each boss drops an item that can be used towards the attunement.   Or perhaps even just have an attuning miniboss inside the raid zone that drops an item that fully charges the genesis key.   The reason a system like this is good is that it is good for guild stability But also promotes creation of alts,   And alts mean people play longer.
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Couldn't agree more, but finding a middle ground is the hard part. The problem with 'hardcore' elitist gamers is this: they want their game hardcore enough that them completing it means few others can, but the minute you try to find a middle ground by say, leaving them to their hardcore stuff and adding in easier stuff for the others, the reality is, their dumb as dog shit and start doing in the easy stuff and complaining everything got nerfed. The worst kind of hardcore elitists want to be the only ones and no one else, which means they give no ground and can't compromise. Ever. At all. It's their way or the high way and screw all the bads that can't compete (yes, compete, because that's what it is to them).
 
Then, at the other extreme, you have people who are just unable to skill up and/or can't play enough to and they decide that because there's content they'll never see, stuff should be added just for them because they're special and their money (and only their money, cuz there's so many more of them you know) keeps the game alive and without them we're all doomed, so we better well cater to them or they're going to take their bat and ball and go somewhere else and screw this game.
 
They're are as bad as each other, just at different ends of the spectrum. The only worthwhile discussion you'll get toward finding a middle ground is if the hardcore elitists get to keep measuring their epeen in such a way that they feel worthwhile (they generally have self-esteem issues) and the bads who can't play often or don't care to get better because it's a game and everything should be easy get to feel they get as good stuff as everyone else. 
 
*scratches head* I don't see a way to do that?
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Only on the Wildstar forums will you see people complaining that a game designed with the hardcore in mind is too hard and should be made easier for the sole purpose of increasing numbers.
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@OP
 
ok what is the exact difference between Wildstar attunement and WoW gear checks? None. Thank you.
In Wildstar you can carry people through attunement in about 2 evenings easily. If they only need dungeons it might be even faster. In WoW you need to carry people through raid encounters because they know cupcake, equip them and then watch them leave for whatever reason because WoW is like that. 
Also attunement is getting nerfed and dumped down to nothing soon because the people demanded it. Now we can all sit around doing nothing until raidnight begins. Thank you for that.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Attunement is about commitment. If you can't make the commitment to attune you have no business raiding. Same goes for new members. It's just the chance you take when you invite them into your guild. I like to think that Carbine is trying to teach you entitlement POS that lesson that alot of us have learned throughout the history of MMO's that Bliztard obliterated with their hand feeding designs. Don't like attuning GTFO and go play WOW, you are useless.
 
And no you do not deserve to see the whole game if your sorry ass can't work for it.
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{| class="blockquote"
@OP
 
ok what is the exact difference between Wildstar attunement and WoW gear checks? None. Thank you.
In Wildstar you can carry people through attunement in about 2 evenings easily. If they only need dungeons it might be even faster. In WoW you need to carry people through raid encounters because they know cupcake, equip them and then watch them leave for whatever reason because WoW is like that. 
Also attunement is getting nerfed and dumped down to nothing soon because the people demanded it. Now we can all sit around doing nothing until raidnight begins. Thank you for that.
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But that's the point I was making earlier, the OP just doesn't understand what his argument is well enough and has used the word 'tedious' when in fact that isn't the problem at all. Attunement isn't tedious. People are making that argument without actually thinking about what they're saying. If you do each step once and only once there's 13 steps. Big whoop. The problem they're all conveniently disguising (and I call it how I see it cuz the bullshit excuses used by people in this thread are rubbish) is 1) they're having to help multiple people do it, so there's an entirely different problem, or 2) they're wiping and failing alot. I mean seriously, argue the right thing. If you really think attunement (13 steps) is tedious, go for that argument in the right way and talk about the actual steps, each of which is NOT a significant time investment if done once and detail *that* out, but don't say it's tedious when you actually mean something entirely different.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
te·di·ous
ˈtēdēəs/
adjective
adjective: tedious
too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.
 
Attunement is most definitely tedious. /semantics.
 
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I see how people can think that, but are we going for max freak out twitch action every single second we're in game or are some instances that are slower, more paced and include gathering, choices and multiple pathways as an option, a choice that should be considered? I haven't been 50 for long, but aren't there more loot tables, more bosses? Isn't more variety than typical dungeon design better?
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First, and most importantly, we need to knock off this hardcore/casual bullshit.  That's a meaningless distinction and is nothing but advertisement jargon, used in turns, to get people to play your game.
 
But there are answers.
 
First, there's the idea of a "soft cap" on game currencies that are used to buy things.  Take elder gems buying gear to fill slots the RNG gods deemed you unfit to wear just as an example (one Carbine hopefully implements, and one I've written a lot about).  Instead of a hard cap, which encourages you to only play to a point, or removing the cap, which instantly favors people who put in a lot of time in direct proportion to time played, you can use a soft cap.  In other words, as you gather elder gems, they occur less and less frequently, thereby meaning that putting in double the playtime gives you more gems (which is fair) but not double the gems (which would be a game breaker).
 
To get people to fan out and try other things, you can spread that cap space among other things in a given week.  Maybe there are bonus gems you get from vet dungeons, some you get from vet adventures, some you get from world bosses, etc.  Give people a reason to be working all manner of content.
 
There are ways to do these things, but we have to kind of step back from this dichotomy calling out who this game is made for.  We're all special little snowflakes; we've all got our own times we can play.  Having 50 hours a week to play means a lot less if you play all five weekdays from 9a-5p.  Having 25 hours to play is a lot different if 16 of them are on friday and saturday evenings and nights.  Carbine shouldn't patronize us by giving us "easier" content because we can't do it, but there's no shame in adding things in that are quicker but just as nasty.
 
I did bring up an idea, once, to put together an arena that randomly sends two mob waves and a random miniboss from any dungeon or the open world, then repeats that, then sends two more mob waves and a dungeon or open world full boss.  Completely random, completely puggable, completely quick.  Not necessarily easy, but awarded less because it takes less time.  Yet still something you can technically do in 15-20 minutes because you don't have a choice (you have to be ready for the next wave ASAP).  I also may have suggested we could add platforming or puzzle challenges in the original text (wherever it is), but the mobs are the important part.  It's something quick and dirty to do on off-raid and guild-event nights.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
te·di·ous
ˈtēdēəs/
adjective
adjective: tedious
too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.
 
Attunement is most definitely tedious. /semantics.
 
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Malgrave would be a lot more relaxing if hidden ninja's didn't leap out of the bushes and gank the 1 caravan member that you needed to get gold.
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It takes less than a week to attune with a static group... It took 1-2 months to 'attune' to Sea in OG FFXI:CoP... is less than a week really, honestly tedius if we are being intellectually honest here?
 
I'm the first to admit I love long content, so take my opinion as some one who played real 'tedious' MMO's for 2 decades and enjoyed it... But really? Honestly is less than a week really tedious? that's not even moderatly long in my book.... Do people honestly find a few days worth of content that bad?
 
To each their own, but that still really surprises me. I'm not going to call anyone entitled, because I don't actually think folks are... but it does seem like there is a fundamental disconnect between the OG MMO feel W* was designed after and some of the vocal forum base.
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i've heard rumors about some people level'ing up cooking...
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Malgrave would be a lot more relaxing if hidden ninja's didn't leap out of the bushes and gank the 1 caravan member that you needed to get gold.
 
Also the caravan member's who go walk about and die because no'one found them in time.
 
Once those 2 get solved it would be super fun Oregon Trail, rather then stressful watch the caravan, make it for 30mins and lose gold to something petty just before the end :(
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I though a range DPS is suppose to be guarding the caravan ?
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