147835-state-of-crafted-gear

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To begin with, I have leveled a master Outfitter and learned all the blueprints (Complex, GA, DS). Now I did some math to find out, that the two raid gears are more or less useless, with their way to low itemlevel to compete with the itemdrops.
I will not go into lower level crafting, because I maxed outfitter before the droprate increase, dont know if it is better now. But thats not the point of my post anyways, I want to  have a closer look at usefulness of crafted gear.
 
Lets begin with the complex gear:
They start at ilvl 72, you need to complete one vet dungeon to get them to 78 and kill a Worldboss to get them to 88. 
They cost 600 crafting voucher per try
You get 78 to 80 gear in vet dungeons and ilvl 90 gear from worldbosses (low drop chance). And if you do contracts, you can get one ilvl 100 gear once a week, as a "normal" player.
For this "pre-raid" content, complex gear is in a very good spot.
 
The effort you need to get the materials and to imbue the item is fair. The droprate of the matrix is good (1 per completed dungeon).
 
In my oppinion, the Worldbos imbuement should be changed to "complete a vet dungeon with a gold medal", because its dungeon gear in first place and it would encourage newer players to do complete Dungeon runs and skip less of the dungeons. For the worldboss you just need to be there at the right time -> 0 effort.
 
The GA gear:
Starts with ilvl 76, you need to get to the GA lobby to get it to 82 and kill x-89 to get it to 92.
they cost 2400 crafting voucher per try
GA drops are ilvl 96 and 100. You get more item drops, than matrixes needed for crafting. 
In addition you are able to buy some ilvl 96 after you killed x-89
There is no real reason to get this gear. The only one I can imagine is, you want to use 5 lvl 80 runes to get prepared for GA, bought every matrix in CX and never did a GA raid before.
At the moment you ilvl gets to 92, you are able to buy some lvl 96 gear at the raid gear Vendor, so crafting GA gear is only worth for 3 armor pieces and the weapon, if there is no better drop until this point.
 
The effort needed to get this gear and its power is in no good state.
 
In my oppinion, the max itemlevel of crafted GA gear should be increased to 98. To achieve this, there should be a third imbuement added, that gives 6 level if you complete GA. Or if you want it more hardcore, complete GA without dying and increase itemlevel to 105 (could be difficulty with disconnects and people joining at the last boss).
 
The DS gear:
 
Starts with ilvl 85, you need to get to the DS lobby to get it to 95 and kill System deamons to get it to 110.
They cost 9600 crafting vouchers per try
DS drops are ilvl 116 and 120. You get more item drops, than matrixes needed for crafting. 
In addition you are able to buy some ilvl 116 after you killed system deamons
So basicly its the same as GA gear. But with absolutely no reason to ever get it.
 
The craftingeffort is even higher than the previous ones, because there are no cheap powercores from salvaging, you have to use the crafted lvl 85 ones, that need one of each matrix, which means you need to do one vet dungeon, kill one GA boss and one DS boss.
 
The effort needed to get this gear and its power is in no good state.
 
In my oppinion the max itemlevel of crafted DS gear should be increased to 118 or even 120, with a third or fourth imbouement that are hard complete. Same as GA gear
 
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I know you can buy the matrices in CX, but then someone else has to do the content for you and you need to farm the money to buy them.
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Before you start saying that crafted gear has so much advantage over dropped gear, because you can overcharge it and choose your stats, have a look what overcharging does. It simply increases the secondary stats of an item, the AP/SP, Armor and HP arent effected. 
This means:
DPS will allways choose the weapon with the highest ilvl because it give ~83,5AP per ilvl, the armor pieces only give an average of 3.6AP per ilvl which isnt that important and can be compensated with overcharging, but requires ilvl 110 gear with >12% (>40% failure rate with perfect sockets) overcharge to compensate the DPS loss of the lower AP.
Tanks on the other hand, require HP and armor, the weapon isnt that important, so they will allways choose the armor with the highest ilvl. There is no way to compensate this with overcharging. On average, medium armor ilvl 110 vs 120 loses 70 armor and 600HP per piece. The only way to increase these stats would be runes (stats 1/3 of an armor rune and 3/4 of a HP rune per piece), but those are used on both armors, so there is no way to compensate this disadvantage.
Im not a healer, so I dont know what they need, but I think its the same as DPS. But I could be possible, that they can some advantage of the "perfect" stats.
 
The next argument I often hear, is that you can choose you stats, which is irelevant on raidgear:
As a DPS, you will allways run into the caps of your main DPS stat and you are forced to take the other 2-3 DPS stats.
As a tank, you wont use crafted gear (see above). But if you do, there are only 3 stats to go, that you will mostly find on dropped tank gear too.
As a healer, as I said above, it could be possible, that you get and advantage by choosing your stats.
 
The last argument I allways hear, it that the devs dont want crafted gear to be BiS. Which I cant understand with the current implementation in mind. The effort to get the materials to craft the gear is higher, the drop rates of the matrix is lower than highest raid gear of each tier. On the other side, the dungeon gear has 8 more ilvl than the highest dungeon drop.
 
 
After I wrote this long post, I came up to a probably better solution, than the new imbuements I suggested above. If overcharging would also increases AP/SP, HP and armor. The ilvl could stay the same, maybe the complex gear needs to be tuned down a little bit to max level 82-84. 
So with high risk to achieve >12% overcharge it could be possible to craft BiS items. But you are still limited by matrices and crafting voucher, so you cant flood the market.	
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If they brought crafted gear to the level of BoE's then how would DS/GA guilds make money off of selling those? Furthermore, the gear is supposed to help you gain entry to DS/GA not serve as "The next best thing" untill ilvl 120 or 100 drops.
 
Now you might be asking why guilds would requre the absurt amount of money given by selling BoE's(some pieces go for 100p each)? Well theres several money sinks in place such as food and boosts(about 5g's per pull if you arent using the best) repair costs(low, but still part of the equation) and finally we're also the guys hit the hardest by the runecrafting changes. Getting the 5th rune is about 2p, rerolling destroys your coin purse, the only question is if you'll keep enough for the next raid-days wipes. As a final reminder, we arent swimming in class sets atm most guilds have by now given sets to most main specs and is either looking to gear off-specs or selling them for money. This means if you get an upgrade to an item with your class set in them, you can expect to pay about 6,something plat PER rune to have them moved. In a progression week with and avg of 40 wipes per day, 1-2items per week this would be 2p for food and boost, 1,3p for repairs and a staggering 42p for runing out a non-BiS item to the most efficient state needed for progression(of this is DS items, GA will be less expensive)
 
Now could carbine increase the ilvl of the crafted items? sure, but ilvl is what more or less defines if the item is an upgrade except for maybe medics. Tanks are looking for armor and health and to lesser extend deflect and glance. DPS hits limits pretty early but AP doesn't DR and is therefore a better dps increase than most other stats. I have no idea about healers.
 
All in all i'd be okay with giving the items more power though. As long as they either have sufficient rng/cost related manufactoring to place a crafted to the same level as a BoE.	
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If they brought crafted gear to the level of BoE's then how would DS/GA guilds make money off of selling those? 
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The last argument I allways hear, it that the devs dont want crafted gear to be BiS. Which I cant understand with the current implementation in mind. The effort to get the materials to craft the gear is higher, the drop rates of the matrix is lower than highest raid gear of each tier. On the other side, the dungeon gear has 8 more ilvl than the highest dungeon drop.
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As for the rest, I can clearly say from a DS raider's perspective that your assumption about the effort is just plain wrong. 
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			Lol. Ofc there's a crapton of items that drop - more than 90% of which are useless. If crafting items were ilvl 120, it would be easier to get BiS by crafting than via drops, because most slots don't even have a single item that could be considered competitive for BiS.	
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Instead of buffing the gear, severely reduce the costs; maybe 50% of current costs for everything crafting-related.
Crafting in general needs a major overhaul IMHO.
It is effectively useless to all but those people wanting to craft gear for alts to avoid the contract-grind.  Even then it has limited uses.
 
If it were me doing changes to crafting, I'd cut all crafting costs in half and do some major boosts to sub-50 crafting to make the crafted gear nearly-BiS for that level to make it worthwhile to craft (and sell).  Doing this in turn makes those lower-level materials worth at least 1 silver or more (instead of near-worthless like now).
 
And significantly buffing/doubling the benefits from Technologist-crafted items would make them Best-in-Slot for their sub-50 level (and maybe even for level 50 with some effort).  I'd like to see this happen to make this trade much more worthwhile to take.
 
And for medishots?  There's no need for that stupid 3-minute cooldown.  Make it 30 seconds and adjust (nerf) healing done to accomodate.  You're using more shots that heal less often.  Another money sink to keep down inflation as well as a boost for people to take up the Technologist and Relic Hunter tradeskills.
Have the 'heal over time' shots and the 'instant heal' shots both on seperate cooldowns.  Addons/Macros can make 'switching' to use both at the same time much more possible.
Add in 'nanite' enhancements to Technologists that work like scroll buffs in other fantasy games.  Lasts an hour, provides a buff and is exclusively crafted by Technologists.
 
Remove all but the White-quality food from standard non-rare non-limited vendors.  Make Cooking not only worthwhile to take and level but also make even lower-quality and lower-level foods worthwhile to take.
 
I wish I was working for Carbine to get some of these things into the game, but I'm totally unsure if it is a safe/secure work environment to be in right now.	
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Lol. Ofc there's a crapton of items that drop - more than 90% of which are useless. If crafting items were ilvl 120, it would be easier to get BiS by crafting than via drops, because most slots don't even have a single item that could be considered competitive for BiS.
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Personally, I think the crafted raid gear should be either taken out of the game or modified. 
 
I am both a Master Outfitter and a raider. It's far easier to raid and simply get gear drops (or buy glory gear) than it is to craft GA gear. On top of the crafting difficulty, this gear isn't even as good as the ilvl 96 drops. Like seriously, even with repair costs, consumables, and such it's still cheaper to just raid & get gear drops than it is to actually craft a GA set. The only real advantage is I could get geared quicker than depending on drops, but the gear is still crappy compared to the actual loot.
 
Since I really want to finish my crafting tree, I will craft both GA and DS sets eventually. In fact, I'm only missing 2 DS schematics but it's going to be a long ways away and I will most likely just salvage the gear because it's better to do other things like contracts and WBs, and then get raid drops.
 
I don't mind if they don't want crafted gear to be BiS, but if that's the case they shouldn't bother with the raid tiers. What I'd like for them to do is make the crafted raid gear at least trash level (ilvl 96 & 116) and simply make it purple instead of orange quality. It's still not as good and you can only have 4 rune slots, but at least it's something to tide people over for raid drops that's way better than what we have now.
			
				
	Edited December 7, 2015 by Spider Bro Jenkins	
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i didnt read all of the OP but he got it right. the current situation of crafting compared to other games is close to meaningless.
 
its not all doom....
 
for example its a great tool for twinks to get them geared quickly for GA and DS so you progress faster.
crafting master items (ilvl 88) are often better than dungeon loot + you dont have to "waste" your time with grinding gear in dungeons. If you already play the spec correctly and dont need to train your rotation,etc or need glory to buy gear grinding dungeons is not really fun.
 
the GA items are just 4ilvl higher (92) but you can put pure runes in them, this is a huge increase in stats overall and nothing to laugh at. having 4-5 of those pieces runed is almost 1 new item compared to the lvl88 crafted gear. the difference is small and GA is easy so i dont think those items are used often or are meaningfull.
 
DS crafted gear (ilvl110) is very good to get ilvl110+ in all slots. you cant buy ilvl116 for every slot after you killed SD and going from ilvl96/100 to ilvl110 is a wayyyy bigger jump than going from ilvl 110 to ilvl120. divine runes are way more powerfull and getting all your gear runed in those is a big dps/dtps/hps buff.
 
In the past we could craft BiS gear which were blue items/trinkets. with the new itemization the devs decided (after getting feedback from the players) that crafting ilvl 96/ilvl116 items would be too powerfull. with overcharge + perfect stat distribution you would have no reason to go DS for ilvl120 loot. 
 
Wildstar is a game where you CANT P2w and buy the best gear, you have to go at the latest raid tier if you want the best loot. We, the community wanted this. And i still am 100% sure that it is correct.
There would be little motivation (for alot of players) to get/rune new gear if all you need is killing SD for the best gear possibe, ever.	
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Here's my 2 cents.
 
1. Transducers
Note
@OP, the transducer cost is reduced by basic material cost talents which make only the Datascape gear cost 2400 voucher for 1 transducer while Genetic and Complex gear cost no transducer.
This is however bugged somehow because I get the reduction on my Tailor but not on my Outfitter. I sent a ticket about it and waiting for a response.
 
Problem
The way transducers are right now is a terrible mechanic. It shouldn't cost 2 to 3 days of crafting dailies to craft someone else 1 piece of gear. That is what it take to craft a Datascape piece without the talent reducing the basic material cost. Talent that you cannot afford taking if you are going to make a Datascape piece using a Datascape Matrix unless you are willing to throw away Datascape Matrixes because RNG sockets are being RNG.
 
My suggestion
Remove the transducer cost from crafting the piece entirely and give the option to reroll a socket to a random element at most once or twice before locking that socket at the cost of a transducer. Change the Crafting Voucher cost of the transducer accordingly and maybe allow other players to provide the crafter with the transducer(s).
What this would achieve is simple:
- No longer forced to pay Crafting Vouchers to craft a piece of gear.
- Still has something to use Crafting Vouchers on when you bought all recipes.
- Less frustration of getting triple Life when you want to craft a *cupcake* assault piece.
 
Example:
You get Life - Water - Earth for a piece of Assault medium armor.
You pay a transducer to reroll the Life socket and get a Fire instead. You are then unable to use another transducer on that socket because you already rerolled. You then use a second transducer on the Water socket and get a Life socket. You are unable to reroll that socket again. You can still reroll the earth but decide to leave it that way.
This means it would of cost you 2 transducers to change from Life - Water - Earth to Fire - Life - Earth.
 
2. Nothing to craft but gear
Problem
The ONLY thing we can craft with Armorer, Outfitter, Tailoring and Weaponsmith is gear... There is no consumables, no vanity items, no special items... nothing.
This leave us with a pretty shallow and empty crafting profession.
Being a Crafter should mean more than just being your guild's alts personal gear pooping machine.
 
My suggestion
Add stuff to craft.
- Toys
- Companion pets
- Ground mounts, Hoverboards and Flairs
- New consumables (Example: Saddles - Increase mounted movement speed by 10% for 4 hours.)
- Items required for certain item imbuements (Project Legacy weapons could use a crafted item to imbue, so could Eldan gloves)
- Items required for other crafting professions
 
3. Crafted raid gear is underwhelming
Problem
Already said, explained and talked about in many threads and by the OP in this thread. Do I need to draw a picture here?
Genetic and Datascape crafted gear are absolute trash and aren't even worth spending any time crafting.
TRASH DROPPED GEAR IS BETTER AND IS BoE!!! This is utterly unacceptable.
 
My suggestion
Killing the first boss imbue the gear to 96 for Genetic and 116 for Datascape.
After killing Prototypes and Phage Maw, imbue to 97 for Genetic gear. Imbue to 98 after killing Ohmna. Do the same thing for Datascape. After 50% of the raid is killed by the player, increase to 117. Increase to 118 for killing Avatus.
 
4. Extra suggestions
1. Give certain bosses in raid a chance to drop tokens specific to those bosses as well as schematics specific to those bosses. That token allow to craft an item of HIGHER quality than the item dropped by that boss. Effectively making it the better piece of gear while remaining a BOSS DROPPED ITEM that require MORE EFFORT to craft. This piece DOESN'T need to have the under/overcharge system tied to it and can come with set stats.
2. Give certain gear dropped from bosses a special imbuement for an extra stat or proc or to fully unlock all of its stats that require a crafted item from one the crafting professions.
 
 
Give crafters something to strive for, because right now, once you reach Master crafting, you are pretty much done with crafting.
			
				
	Edited December 8, 2015 by Fluffy McNuggets	
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@FantasticCupcake
How do you want to lower the cost? Most of the items needed have player driven prices. For the vendor materials, you have the talent choice, either have some comfort with eliminating socket colors or pay less for your items.
And even if you could lower the crafting costs, in the end it would be cheap, worthless gear. Instead of worthless gear...
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3. Crafted raid gear is underwhelming
Problem
Already said, explained and talked about in many threads and by the OP in this thread. Do I need to draw a picture here?
Genetic and Datascape crafted gear are absolute trash and aren't even worth spending any time crafting.
TRASH DROPPED GEAR IS BETTER AND IS BoE!!! This is utterly unacceptable.
 
My suggestion
Killing the first boss imbue the gear to 96 for Genetic and 116 for Datascape.
After killing Prototypes and Phage Maw, imbue to 97 for Genetic gear. Imbue to 98 after killing Ohmna. Do the same thing for Datascape. After 50% of the raid is killed by the player, increase to 117. Increase to 118 for killing Avatus.
 
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Short of a complete system overhaul I'd prefer something akin to the PvP sets for a final imbuement that'll bring the ilvl up to the zone's standard (or the middleground ones anyway). If there's a specific type of drop that's bind on pickup and relatively rare then people will still need to run the instances, and if only 1-2 of any type drop per week people will still overwhelmingly rely on dropped gear for progression. To make it even more difficult the imbuement item could even expire on leaving the instance and thus not stocked for future use.
 
Then crafted gear won't be worthless and instead becomes a long-term goal for players dedicated to getting their ideal stat composition at the cost of some ilvl.	
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@thx for all you feedback. There are some good points, but some are very extreme and wont bring crafting to a proper state.
 
Lowering the cost should no be the way to go. You only need the matrix and the crafting daylies, which is a good limitation to not flood the market, by crafted gear.
 
Lowering the quality and increase its level would end in an worthless item too. Looking at the 116 gear. No one would take it. You need to put runes in it, have one less rune slot and in the end, you will throw it away.
 
Spider Bro Jenkins made some good alternative suggestion. If the devs dont want us to craft high level gear, then give us something else to do. 
 
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those items would be BiS and therefore nothing that will come.
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"some elitist"
 
more like carbine devs and people who actually put the effort in to test stuff on the ptr and together decided that ilvl116 crafted gear would be too strong in relation to DS drops and the overall balance in DS.
We already have too much dps with the current items and progression is way too fast for new guilds (there are guilds just rushing trough DS atm if you follow WSprogress), giving them more tools to progress even faster is not good for the overall difficulty of the game.
 
also there is the problem of getting your raiders motivated, you can say what you want. if the best gear is craftable you wont see people putting in that much effort in raiding which is bad for the raiding szene.	
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Dont forget, crafted gear is a DS drop too, you need the martix.
 
The DPS problem is not a problem of Crafted gear, its an overall design issue. And could easily be fixed slightly reducing the stats gained through armor and runes.
 
People need to stop thinking, that crafting means, you dont have to do the content, this is not true.
Just an example:
If you get a item token at the end of a raid, that you can exchange in any item you want, this is good. But if you get crafting materials, that you can craft into any item you want, its bad.  :blink:	
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useless for whom? I doupt that 90% of the ilvl 116 and 120 gear that drops in a raid is useless to everyone inside the raid and thrown away.
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In my oppinion, the Worldbos imbuement should be changed to "complete a vet dungeon with a gold medal", because its dungeon gear in first place and it would encourage newer players to do complete Dungeon runs and skip less of the dungeons. For the worldboss you just need to be there at the right time -> 0 effort.
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"some elitist"
more like carbine devs and people who actually put the effort in to test stuff on the ptr and together decided that ilvl116 crafted gear would be too strong in relation to DS drops and the overall balance in DS.
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Actually, it dos prove it, because the only way there can be a market offering ilevel 116 items is because of raiders. It's just another carrot to lure people into it: "if you start raiding, you can get this sweet high level gear that NOBODY ELSE can get and that sells for a lot of money!"
Meanwhile, non-raiders are at the mercy of the raiders to ever acquire that gear.
			
				
	Edited December 9, 2015 by Ildur	
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The more and more I think of it, this sollution, I posted in post #1, would fix all the problems. And would make crafting endgame content, too.
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...If overcharging would also increases AP/SP, HP and armor. The ilvl could stay the same, maybe the complex gear needs to be tuned down a little bit to max level 82-84. 
So with high risk to achieve >12% overcharge it could be possible to craft BiS items. But you are still limited by matrices and crafting voucher, so you cant flood the market.
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TRASH DROPPED GEAR IS BETTER AND IS BoE!!! This is utterly unacceptable.
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i party agree as i said in my first post and the ilvl116 items on the AH show that their philosophy "go raid if you want to have good items" is not 100% true. Overall i like this crafting system since its not p2w.
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I can fully agree with the TO, crafted GA and DS gear is currently completely broken and useless.
 
The overcharge "fix" (increase AP/SP, Armor and HP) could help.	
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I bet you do, since it lets DS raiders sell BoE DS gear at a huge profit that cannot ever be matched by anything crafted--including items that require raid-only crafting mats and schematics.
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I bet you do, since it lets DS raiders sell BoE DS gear at a huge profit that cannot ever be matched by anything crafted--including items that require raid-only crafting mats and schematics.
 
 
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and again you show your lack of knowledge for lategame PvE because you dont run it. senseless to discuss it with you. and wont respond to you on this since its a waste of time.
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and the DS116 loot we sell on the AH is used for guild repairing our gear during progression or buying major runes for runing for everyone so we can progress easier without farming. Not for individual use.
this gear option was never meant to be for everyone. its always been the intention to support bad luck raiders have when pieces just dont drop
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Huge wall of text here.  No spoiler tags but it kinda touches on a lot of what is wrong with crafting.  The only Carbine video explaining RuneCrafting and Tradeskills is from a PTR livestream way back in September.  A bit old now but still relevant on how little has changed.  I'm leaving my original notes until I get a confirmation on what 'Silica Ore' is then I will strikethrough-edit the post to update it.
 
Carbine, your Crafting Systems Designer (Marc Chang) needs some help to do their job properly.There are several faults within this crafting & runeskill video of yours:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfaPfQu6hvYThese faults are as follows:-Completely ignores providing information on where/how to get power cores; just says 'yeah it is needed' and then immediately jumps to crafting.-Completely ignores that the mats required don't match the level.Never mentioned this because GM PTR powers let him randomly get whatever mats he wants and he never has to even bother with knowing what damn mining nodes are available at that level.Want to know the available nodes at that level?  Iron.  Maybe Platinum once someone hits Level 20.WHERE would I mine Silica Ore!?  Please answer me that!  Is 'Silica Ore' a placeholder name for 'Iron Ore' or something? Yes, it is Iron Ore.-A SLIDER BAR to switch between TWO OPTIONS!?  Are there any people at Carbine familiar with proper UI design and end-user experience?  Why a slider bar!?  You already have toggles in-game.  Let us click a (large) button to choose what we want and then our choice has a highlight on it.  Is that so hard!?-"The Number One reason to craft is you get to choose your stats"No sorry, if this is the ONLY reason then it is a poor one.  We can just grab the gear we want (again with random sockets) with the stats we want from doing dungeons/raiding.-Forcing people to craft what they can't use on their character to gain talent points.There's only so much gear you can feed to alts.  The rest is wasted because nobody buys it because they outlevel it so fast.-Three seperate armorcrafting professions rather than ONE profession that makes ALL the armor types.This makes me shake my head.  Further discourages bothering with crafting to have to learn a completely seperate trade JUST for an alt of yours.  There is no crafting economy so doing it yourself or hoping someone will make it for you (or even respond) is the only viable way.  Any new players are completely SoL.-Several minutes later, an offhand remark about Technologists being the ones to make Power Cores.  Never mind that they didn't bother to mention this when Power Cores were first introduced in the little crafting walkthrough he did.  But ok then.-Tailors pretty much need Survivalist to gather cloth materials; they aren't just nodes to gather.  Not mentioned at all in the game but only in this livestream.  No mention that it improves the droprates of cloth or that trying to grind cloth without Survivalist is completely pointless.  Also no mention that ths Survivalist housing plot (Thicket) doesn't provide cloth but only leather.  There are no other ways to obtain cloth EXCEPT by killing humanoid mobs and HOPING for a drop.  Meanwhile the medium & heavy armors can be crafted significantly easier.-May be a way to get a third tradeskill = red herring; no such thing exists and never mentioned again.-Undercharging = oh that's something I never mentioned before but I'll randomly throw out in case anyone is still paying attention after the giveaway-Elemental sockets = you don't even know enough about YOUR OWN SYSTEM THAT YOU HELPED TO MAKE and are the KEY DESIGNER to explain each element and what it affects; because screw actually offering any useful information to your viewers in place of jokes & meme lines.  You deliberately put logic/life at the bottom of the talent tree despite being the most common sockets because you have no clue how your system actually works-Only going over the talents of one tradeskill (weaponcrafting) because who needs to know about any of the others or what they do or how it works?-Sorry Cooking, we don't care about your droprates-Sorry Architects, we don't care about you at all-Crafted gear is 'balanced' with raid gear and should be 'on par'.I guess this changed quickly when enough raiders whined about it; what a shame...gutting crafting because of raiders wanting to monopolize the entire market (even if they were the source of most crafting materials in the first place and would've made more money that way.-So you want to see Master recipes?  Tough!  I can't be bothered to use a quick GM command because I never anticipated that I'd need to show players at least some of what they can expect.  I totally hope it'll work even though I myself don't even know any of the details.  Hope it helps, snark snark :P-Current rune slots on gear are messed up because of old system.  We can't be bothered to go back and update them so I hope you enjoy RNG rerolling your stats!  HAHA!  :P-Sorry Architects, I still don't care about your questions!  I'm a STATS person and don't care about your silly little housing bubble!  YAY! :P-Runes are now totally simple!  I won't even bother to explain any of these ratings or what they actually mean!  Who needs to know that right? :PI'm also never going to mention the level requirement to start making runes because who needs that info!?-So we admit we put stupid RNG into rerolling Rune Sockets (since Runes are so powerful you NEED the socket to match the Runes to your build) and force you to spend tons of gold to get what you want OR pay real money to bypass that.  Even if you're a subscriber?  Tough stones, this is the new meta of freemium so you have to deal with it.NINE SERVICE TOKENS for a Level 12 blue item.  Nobody over there sees this as absurd!?There's no way to actually make it worthwhile to reroll anything lower-level unless you want to spend tons of gold on it (gold, at level 12...let that sink in).TWENTY FOUR gold to add a rune socket, and TWENTY SERVICE TOKENS...this is all just for a stupid easily-outleveled Level 12 item!?-So people ask about Exceptional Runes and my response will be to completely dismiss it because 'just use lower level runes and progress it like gear' without realizing that we've tuned the content to presume a certain level of stats & gear among the group so using lower level runes will actively be a detriment to your ENTIRE group but I don't care because haha I'm the System Designer haha.-A corporate shill asks why Carbine 'loves us' so much and they respond how they make the game for us and yet still want to wallet-gouge PAYING MONTHLY SUBS with the Service Coin and rerolling crap.What is love?  Baby dont hurt me, dont hurt me, no more....Carbine you are an abusive partner if you think gouging us with Service Token rerolling slot machine crap is showing 'love' for your players.Ever since that livestream, there's been tone-deaf silence on a proper Carbine tutorial on RuneCrafting and Tradeskills.Now I see why.  The system is so complex that even your System Designer had to take over an hour to explain just PART of how it works and still skipped over crucial details.
			
				
	Edited December 15, 2015 by FantasticCupcake	
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Is raiding in DS super expensive compared to GA? It's just I've heard people say that they need to sell the BoE to cover repair costs more than once. From my experience in GA, it's not making me bankrupt or anything. I mean I'd be making a lot more money if I didn't raid, but that's about it. I think the biggest bill I've seen was about 1 plat, but I don't pay too much attention. The only time I had trouble was in the beginning when I was the only Stalker DPS so I always came out of raid with at least one new piece of gear. Since I've only progressed as far as minis (unless you count silly SD pulls when no one was prepared) in DS, I can't really comment and was curious.
 
I can easily see buying runes (or in some cases, foci) being a huge gold sink, but as you said, that's more of a convenience than necessity. The major foci drop in DS anyway.
 
I get the purpose of crafted raid gear, but I just don't feel it should be considered top tier. Since it's clearly meant to serve a specific purpose, it should be a side tree that's easier to do than master level. Personally, I wish they would add at least one more step where you have to kill the final boss and then it makes it trash level (ilvl 96/116). Then I would be okay with it being top tier crafting.
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buff food is not much but it adds up during progression on hard bosses.
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I'm leaving my original notes until I get a confirmation on what 'Silica Ore' is then I will strikethrough-edit the post to update it.
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			Silica Ore = Iron Ore, some changes to the names of crafting materials were not approved by our Lore department and we corrected that.	
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Silica Ore = Iron Ore, some changes to the names of crafting materials were not approved by our Lore department and we corrected that.
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So many people crying.
 
You want raid tier gear? Go raid. Why do you even need DS gear if you're not running DS? You really that desperate to shave off 2 minutes on your Expo clears? If you're not raiding, you don't even have full access to the same tier of runes, so why the hell are these guys so salty?
 
The crafted items are supposed to be fillers to get you started on said tier of raid until you find BiS/upgrades in the actual raid tier. And they do that just fine. My alt is doing fine in alt GA runs wearing only crafted GA gear and the X-89 glory gear.
 
Quit crying and play the game.	
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So much salt and the ones complaining about ga/ds gear are mostly poeple not in these raids.  I don't consider killing probes going into DS and raiding in there or farming mobs in a wing for boe's.  On the crafted front, it was implemented to aid those trying to push the next bosses after killing the first boss and help you get gear.  IF the bosses were just as hard as SD, and Gloomclaw was to some guilds, than you would need to have gear to help with that.  Especially weapons.  That's where crafted comes in.  Hell, I'm in a guild that clears Avatus every week, and we had a member that has cleared it 4 times and has yet to see healslinger guns drop, so he got crafted.  Same for a Engineer and a warrior we have, was in there weeks and the only upgrade they needed were heavy legs, heavy legs token hasn't dropped for us for weeks and only seen 1 pair of onslaught legs.  Guess what, that crafted helps.  The crafted gear is for guilds not doing complete clears and having alot more chances to get gear.  That's where crafted comes in.  It's to augment raiders,  NOT NON-RAIDERS !!!!!  Are the people not raiding seriously complaining about not able to get raid gear?  Or is it your getting that iLvl gear, and not fair that your having to depend on raiders to obtain said gear?  The crafted gear is not powerful enough guess, what, it's not meant to be more powerful than drops you recieve from killing the bosses.  Is that a hard concept?  So you get some good gear for killing the first boss in the raid tier, guess what, I still need gear and oh look, crafted helps me kill the next boss so I can get more gear, go me!
 
 
Give someone an idea of how much it costs as a DS raider, it costs me roughly 15-20g a death with iLvl of 120 in my gear.  The range is because well, honestly it seriously changes every death one piece will take a hit and one wont, it's weird.  Each pull you are using a boost, which is roughly 2g to make, I don't know current prices because I made alot last month but it was costing me about 2g a piece.  Food is just as expensive and some are buying the DS food for 4g a piece.  So Each doeath so far is 26g.  If your wiping, and you do 20 wipes a night or death, that adds up quick.  Why when people call a wipe, people jump off the sides of a platform so don't take durability damage because consider fall damage.  But your looking at spending 20g x 20= 4p.  Now times that for 20 people and thats 80 plat, cost of a boe.  And in a full clear of DS, you maybe get 2 boe's.  	
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 If you're not raiding, you don't even have full access to the same tier of runes, so why the hell are these guys so salty?
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I should have been more specific, I raid on Warhound where the economy around endgame items and runes is non-existant, all the raiding guilds are busy gearing/runing their own before any of it hits the market.
 
Crafted items do a fine job filling in missing pieces of gear until you find permanent upgrades in a raid.
 
People in general need to stop bitching about "fairness" or "equality" in games. It's not the devs fault you chose not to participate in the content.	
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I should have been more specific, I raid on Warhound where the economy around endgame items and runes is non-existant, all the raiding guilds are busy gearing/runing their own before any of it hits the market.Crafted items do a fine job filling in missing pieces of gear until you find permanent upgrades in a raid.
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People need to stop thinking, that crafting means, you dont have to do the content, this is not true.
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Precisely this. There are not enough patterns in DS or GA to where a player could build a complete set that would compete with any player that is fully geared in that tier's ilvl already. Even if they raised the ilvl of the current crafted gear, nobody could "buy" their way to completion, nor are they going to magically play better on their first day than someone who has been raiding for months. The arguments some of you people make are just ridiculous. A few pieces of crafted gear at the proper ilvl for its corresponding raid/dungeon that cost reasonable amounts of mats to make are not going to magically devalue the work you've done and the gear you've achieved.
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Nah. This thought process is exactly why games are absolute shit these days.
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It's not about devaluing the gear. It's about how *cupcake*ing stupid it is to give gear out to people who don't actually play all the game's content. There should be a difference between a guild member who farms Avatus weekly and some rando who farms Expos for three hours a week.
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Nah. This thought process is exactly why games are absolute shit these days.
 
You want the gear? Work for it like everyone else. Wait for them to drop off certain bosses and acquire them from whatever method your guild uses for loot like everyone else did.
 
Don't wanna raid? Stick with the crafted crap. It's more than enough even without the imbuements. Stick superbs in there. You'll be fine running your Expos and Dailies. You don't need top endgame gear if you're not running endgame content. Stop crying that you don't have them.
 
It's not about devaluing the gear. It's about how *cupcake*ing stupid it is to give gear out to people who don't actually play all the game's content. There should be a difference between a guild member who farms Avatus weekly and some rando who farms Expos for three hours a week.
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How do you feel about BoE DS gear btw? Because even without the crafted raid gear, people still sell those off the AH so nonraiders can actually buy gear better than the crafted crap. I know this isn't the case on Warhound, but this is very much the case on Entity. I knew players who were more geared than I was that never stepped into a raid.
 
I still think they should either change the raid crafting tier or just get rid of it. The problem is its purpose was easily solved by simply adding more trash gear to the raid vendor. 
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Crafting gear was always a stand in until you got an upgrade. If you go from SD all the way to Avatus in a progression guild and still have crafted gear then you might want to speak to who ever deals with the loot.
 
I see a lot of people in dungeons with BoE DS gear and yea. Doesn't help them at all. No idea why BoEs are in a raid as the income from selling them at the moment is low compared to selling the runes you can get for salvaging them. Or bank them for alts or new members. Which most guilds do.
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			Depends what stats you want. Crafted can be better than the 116s just as some 116s are better than 120 because of the stats	
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Depends what stats you want. 
 
Crafted can be better than the 116s just as some 116s are better than 120 because of the stats
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I can think of one case where it could be better than the trash drops, which is Critical Hit Chance on a Stalker tank. But I could also deal with this by simply adding a rune. Maybe crafting is really generous with secondary stats at the raid level, but I checked my raid gear, and it seems like adding 1 Major Devastation rune would be more effective at increasing a single stat than crafting would (unless you do something like overcharge that and completely undercharge everything else).
 
Could you share an example where having a crafted piece would be better than a trash drop?
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But then you lose HP and Armor, which is more important for a tank than crit chance. (6 level on a medium chest piece means 450HP, 51 armor and 27SP that are missing)
 
The only role I can think of, that could benefit of crafted gear are healers, DPS need the AP (especially on the weapon) and tanks need the HP and armor on the armor pieces. So most of the times, ilvl > stats, if it comes to gear.
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As I said before, the complete crafting system is messed up. Even with high risk in overcharging it is not possible to compensate the ilvl disadvantage of crafted gear.
 
You get less than 15% of your total stats by crafted gear (considering AMP points), so over- and undercharging is more or less meaningless. 
 
A full set of 25% undercharged should be totaly crap, but it reduces your total stats by less than 4%.
A full set of 12% overcharged gear has a failurerate of >50% per piece increases your total stats by less than 2%.
 
The 10 ilvl difference between a crafted DS weapon and a 120 weapon alone, increase your total AP by 835 this is a DPS increase of over 5% (at DS gear).
The 6 ilvl to the 116 weapon is 500AP, which results in a 3% DPS increase.
 
While you cant increase the mainstats (AP/SP, HP and armor) by overcharging, there is no chance to craft competitive items.
 
If overcharging would effect the mainstats, this would A) fix the problem with crafting competitive items and B ) punish crafter that produce undercharged crap or go the safe low failurerate way.
			
				
	Edited December 20, 2015 by whyme2	
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But . . .
 
 
I know it's not always one or the other, but I hear more about crafted gear being a temporary fix more than being better than the 116s. I can think of one case where it could be better than the trash drops, which is Critical Hit Chance on a Stalker tank. But I could also deal with this by simply adding a rune. Maybe crafting is really generous with secondary stats at the raid level, but I checked my raid gear, and it seems like adding 1 Major Devastation rune would be more effective at increasing a single stat than crafting would (unless you do something like overcharge that and completely undercharge everything else).
 
Could you share an example where having a crafted piece would be better than a trash drop?
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Because just as some 120s are shit some 116s are. So crafted can be better than 116s for the pure stats allocation  
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I like crafting and it's always one of my favorite activities in all games I play. I picked up technologist and armorer, not with the expectation to be able to do things as good as raid items, but with the idea that I could earn some gold coins in the future, while having fun crafting. At the moment I have a big issue with the randomness of the sockets with my armorer, and stopped crafting all together. The system forces me to mismatch sockets by having a chance of putting the same socket color more then once, for socket types that do not have more then one secondary stat option. Example: double pistachio-green (no idea what color that should be) and only option is focus pool on it for not making it mismatch, but you can't have two times the same secondary stat so you have to pick one that HAVES to mismatch, dropping success chance below the floor.
 
That's damn stupid in my opinion, and kills the crafted stuff because there will be miscrafted items that aren't even worth selling, and will just drive the crafting costs up for decent crafter gear by a lot, in a market that already does not care much about crafted stuff, so you end up, like in a lot of games sadly, by saying: "you are better off selling the mats" and not bothering with crafting.
 
So what could we do, without dropping the idea that crafting should be for niche items and keeping the randomness that some people seem to like (not me).
 
First idea that comes to mind is there should not be more sockets of a color randomly dropped, then the number of possibilities for this color to not mismatch. So two pistachio slots should be a no-no. Sure, you can pick talents that soften the problem of mismatching, but then you are FORCING me to have the talents tree in a certain way, limiting my playstyle and making the talents tree kind of a joke.
 
Another possibility would be to let people actually pick two or more times the same secondary stat, or at least as many times as there are matching sockets, so we could have a 2x pistachio mastepiece of the focus pool. Let's just bathe in focus alright?
 
The best solution though, in my opinion, is if I didn't place the core, let me retrive most of the mats from the craft. If I don't like the way the sockets rolled, let me try again without eating all the mats and driving the monetary costs of the crafted item of my dreams up by a lot. Let me recover at least the gems and crystals from that, or whatever materials are the blue and purple ones for other craftings. It's still a loss when you loose base mats and reagents, but not so big that you actually start hating it.	
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That's not an example though, just a generalization. While whyme2 doesn't agree with this premise, they do acknowledge that crafted raid gear might benefit healers since they are less dependent on the primary stats.
 
You're just saying that some are terrible without an argument to back it up.
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That's not an example though, just a generalization. While whyme2 doesn't agree with this premise, they do acknowledge that crafted raid gear might benefit healers since they are less dependent on the primary stats.
 
You're just saying that some are terrible without an argument to back it up.
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I like crafting and it's always one of my favorite activities in all games I play. I picked up technologist and armorer, not with the expectation to be able to do things as good as raid items, but with the idea that I could earn some gold coins in the future, while having fun crafting. At the moment I have a big issue with the randomness of the sockets with my armorer, and stopped crafting all together. The system forces me to mismatch sockets by having a chance of putting the same socket color more then once, for socket types that do not have more then one secondary stat option. Example: double pistachio-green (no idea what color that should be) and only option is focus pool on it for not making it mismatch, but you can't have two times the same secondary stat so you have to pick one that HAVES to mismatch, dropping success chance below the floor.
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@Norte Metavox: Thx for your reply, but it seems a bit oftopic to me. The RNG sockets are somehow needed to increase the risk of crafting and make the whole crafting a little bit more complex. You have to make desicions what talents you choose and if you take the risk and try to make the item you tried to craft into somethin usefull or just dump it. Else every item would have more or less the perfect stats.
 
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You dont need an argument to back up what is already known. This game for all the stat/gear changes that it has had still has items with stats that no one wants. This is when crafted win because if you want certain stats you get those stats.After this patch gear has become just a holder for runes which are your main dps gain. If you can put the same runes into crafted and have the base stats on the gear that you actually want then this beats the tiny tiny  AP gain you get from a 116.This is just basic. No idea why it needs to be explained.Also ores said it some items thats are actually BiS drop later into the content so leveling up a crafted piece to be 2nd best until you get your best piece to replace it is a route people can take if they want to. 
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And I doupt the 2nd best sollution to go would be crafted gear. It is by far worse than 120 gear and noone will ever invest the money to rune the crafted DS gear to a level better than the GA gear you have when you enter DS.
And I also doupt that someone that has cleared GA will replace his GA gear with 95 crafted DS gear, rune the crafted gear to kill system deamons and then rerune it at 110 again to clear DS.
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So making endgame-crafting competitive to endgame-drops would ruin the game. (While you need to do the same content for both to get them).
 
 
 
I wonder where certain crafting materials come from, oh wait from the same bosses like the DS/GA gear... Ever had a look into crafting or only doing raids 24/7 to get your last piece of missing gear?
 
The crafted gear doesn't magicly appear by simply pressing a button. There are so many mechanics behind crafting, to limit the amount of crafted gear that can be crafted per. (Matrix, crafting voucher, failure rate [overcharge, RNG sockets],...), especially if you want the best crafted gear.
 
And after crafting this gear is by far not competitive and the work not finished, you still have to do stuff after getting the mats.... so again, have you ever looked into crafting?
 
This "crap" force you to do this content, to get it to max level, else its crap and not even competitive to any gear you should have at the point doing this content.
 
The current state of endgame-crafting is crap, you are right, thats why I started this post. To sum this whole issue up.
 
You have to do GA get your matrices. If you have your crafted GA gear, it is worse than fully imbued crafted-Vet gear and worldboss gear. You have to rune your crafted GA gear with "crap" runes, just to rerune it again after killing X-89. And after all this, you end up with gear worse than any GA-drop (suitable to your playstile).
 
The same thing for DS gear, you have to do DS to get the matrix, to then do it again in crap gear, worse than everything you get in GA (except crafted GA gear :rolleyes: ). To do DS you need to put in crap runes just to rerune it again after killing System Demons. To end up again, with worse gear than any DS-drop (suitable to your playstile).
 
Of course some parts of this can be skiped. You can buy the matrices at CX. So you dont have to farm the matrices in the raids, but someone else.
 
And where do these randoms get the matrix from (ok CX, because crafted-gear is crap, so they are cheap). And how do they imbue their crafted DS gear if they only do "expos" (ever heared these things called vet dungeons?).
 
Here is the giant part you miss, you still have to do the content to even get the best "crap"-crafted-gear in the game.
If he runs around in his crafted DS gear, with no GA progess, he stucks at ilvl 85. Now we can start arguing about 5vs4 rune slots and ilvl 88, 90 and 100 vs 85. But I brought it up in the first post, you should probably read it, but I assume you are to biased for the problem.
If this "expo" running random with 3h/week now magicly manages to get pulled through vet dungeons and GA for his key to enter DS and managed to get the system deamon kill for the best gear, then why not. I mean, this sounds like "prolevel" time management. And why shouldn't "pros" dont run arround in best gear? :D
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How do you feel about BoE DS gear btw? Because even without the crafted raid gear, people still sell those off the AH so nonraiders can actually buy gear better than the crafted crap. I know this isn't the case on Warhound, but this is very much the case on Entity. I knew players who were more geared than I was that never stepped into a raid.
 
I still think they should either change the raid crafting tier or just get rid of it. The problem is its purpose was easily solved by simply adding more trash gear to the raid vendor.
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And you act like it's hard to get the imbuements done. The first part all you literally do is walk in the instance. On Entity you can pug GA or buy a carry in DS for a Daemons kill. Literally kill the first boss and walk out.
 
Yeah man. So much *cupcake*ing work involved to get your crafted shit imbued.
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			They already are an important part of the economy.  Food/Boosts/Runes, the mats for it are all high selling items.  Boe's don't drop like candy, maybe 2-3 a complete clear.  But, honestly, if they had these crafted when GA took a couple months to clear or DS took 6, poeple would use Crafted alot more.	
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There will allways be a way to do it the easy-way. You can buy an fully equiped account on ebay, should we shutdown the servers now?
 
But you miss a giant part in your example. Where did you get the matrix/crafted gear from? Yes you can buy them on CX, but right now, crafted gear is useless, so the prices of the matrices is on the bottom. If crafted gear would be somehow usefull, the prices will go up again. So there will be no easy way to get gear.
In the end its a lot easier to buy BoE gear and the 3 pieces at the glory vendor after Deamons kill instead of crafted gear. This is alot easier, because you need the Deamons once and gives you even better gear. (OK, you can wait until you have a full crafted DS set and then do Deamons, but this will cost you alot of plat at once).
 
I really dont understand why you are scared that crafted gear could be somehow usefull. It wont devaluate your effort in raiding, it wont devaluate your gear.... In the end, the raiders will become an important part in this games economy.
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If you're not raiding, you don't deserve to wear the same gear as/gear on par with someone who's been farming DS for months. Simple as that. Stop asking for the same shit just because you log into the same game.
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The problem with this is that it's simply not true in the game. The existence of DS BoEs, Divine runes on the AH, and Divine Set Foci on the CX means that nonraiders without enough money can get decently geared. Hell, there were some guilds (maybe still) selling Avatus kills and you were free to all the gear you wanted except the pink weapon. Crafting itself seems pointless beyond a few gear pieces that aren't available from the raid vendor and BoE pieces.
 
I'm just a bit curious how you can be okay with BoEs when it allows nonraiders to wear raid gear. I know things are different on Warhound, but this is the reality on Entity.
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BoEs aren't the problem. They drop too excessively and there were far too many of them created and thrown into the loot table.
 
I mean you can almost get an entire set of gear on both specs using BoEs. That's *cupcake*ing ridiculous.
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May I ask what's the problem then?
 
I'm sorry if I'm really dense right now. But I just feel like if you don't think nonraiders deserve to wear raid gear then you wouldn't like the existence of the BoEs because they give them the ability to wear raid gear without raiding. I mean, for the most part they will be given out to members of the raid team first to help them gear up, but they've obviously trickled into the server economy (on Entity at least).
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