104276-why-do-we-have-unintended-new-bugs-and-issues-after-every-patch-page-2

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Hello folks,
 
I really wonder how after EVERY PATCH things that have been working break? I mean, looking at patch notes, there are a ton of fixes, updates and additions there but in reality, things that either got fixed in a previous patch or have already been working break!
 
I work as a lead developer in a software company, and I know how production pipelines work. I, and the teams I've managed NEVER released a software upgrade that reverted or broke working or previously fixed things. I am really amazed how Carbine's release flow feels flawed, incompetent and to be frank - no offense - amateur.
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{| class="blockquote"
You could make the exact same argument as a WoW fanboy.
 
Here's your post as some Tauren-identifying player in the WoW world, criticizing Wildstar:
 
Tauren recommend not to forget bug at launch that allowed players to kill entire city by ignoring cooldown of charged shot.
Or game not playable because optimization not completed.
Oh let's not forget bosses resetting in adventures, dungeons, world bosses, and raids.
Oh did Tauren mention gear, gold, quest completion, housing items, and garden crops disappearing?
Or stemdragons not attackable?
Tauren maybe forgot quests bugged or not firing correctly....
 
 
 
Funny thing, Tauren encountered none of these.
Tauren leveled to 90 without problems.
Tauren now found rare issues with quest grammar or minor class imbalance.
Guess what, Tauren find way around is having fun.
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Snip
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No offense, being a software engineer and technology professional for 20 years, you must be a complete gem to work with.  It's true, this is Carbine's first rodeo and they probably are improving and refining their development process.  But I tell you what, I won't make assumptions about the complexity of your codebase you manage or size and talent of your team or assume your customers think you are God's gift to programming and never have any issue with the code you produce.
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{| class="blockquote"
  I said, we never revert or break a previously working feature with a patch that is focused on something else. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Keyword here is "software upgrade". I did not say we release flawless software with no bugs and everything works perfect. I said, we never revert or break a previously working feature with a patch that is focused on something else.
 
I sincerely hope I made myself clear, because looks like it's really hard for some people to understand that specific sentence.
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{| class="blockquote"
Not always. And on a project this size, I can only imagine that becomes less true.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'm not so sure about that. If a release is done directly from a branch I think it's being done incorrectly.
 
Even when as the resident Chua says, Releases are maintained in their own fork to maintain a point-in-time version of what's currently in the production environment (and can be hotfixed against), those releases should always be generated from the mainline.
 
I almost feel like I should draw a picture for the laymen out there (not directed at you) but here goes:
 
Let's say I branch the main to start work on "FeatureA".  At the same time, you branch the main to create "FeatureB".  We both work away on our stuff, test it thoroughly, and it's rock solid.  I release from my branch, and then two weeks later you release from yours... all my work would disappear.  If we don't merge into the main, you'd have to at the very least merge your branch with mine. 
 
With only two branches, that could work - but with 7?  Maybe that *is* what they're doing... it would kind of explain the crazy regressions and wierd out-of-nowhere "this totally unrelated thing got broken somehow due to a dependency" stuff that seems to happen.
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{| class="blockquote"
Many branching strategies out there.
All have benefits and downsides. Come down to situations and preference.
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			impatient children have no business playing an mmo in it's first year.	
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{| class="blockquote"
If at some point the branches don't come together, I'm not sure how you would maintain something of the size of Wildstar. 
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{| class="blockquote"
Let's say I branch the main to start work on "FeatureA".  At the same time, you branch the main to create "FeatureB".  We both work away on our stuff, test it thoroughly, and it's rock solid.  I release from my branch, and then two weeks later you release from yours... all my work would disappear.  If we don't merge into the main, you'd have to at the very least merge your branch with mine. 
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{| class="blockquote"
This. I'm just a consumer of software, but I've been one for quite a while. And I can't say I remember any software rebreaking things with this frequency.
How does this even happen? Copypasting of outdated code?
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{| class="blockquote"
They're -probably, should- merging their feature branches on a "version" branch and that version branch rebases from production branch frequently and developers also should rebase their feature branches to "version" branch frequently too to avoid missing implemented features.
 
I don't see a problem with working more than 1 development branch, as long as they all have their own QA phase, and then merge into main version branch which then merges into staging and release eventually.
 
Otherwise it would nearly be impossible to track different changes of different branches when staging.
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Tenner
 
"This. I'm just a consumer of software, but I've been one for quite a while. And I can't say I remember any software rebreaking things with this frequency.
How does this even happen? Copypasting of outdated code?"
 
then you are new to these games and/or forums or just havn't been paying attention.
 
go to any mmo message board that has their old forums archived and you will see the exact same posts as you see here.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Tenner
 
"This. I'm just a consumer of software, but I've been one for quite a while. And I can't say I remember any software rebreaking things with this frequency.
How does this even happen? Copypasting of outdated code?"
 
then you are new to these games and/or forums or just havn't been paying attention.
 
go to any mmo message board that has their old forums archived and you will see the exact same posts as you see here.
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{| class="blockquote"
What people are trying to understand is,
 
How does introducing a new battleground suddenly make Chua fatter and all Aurin Males mouth breathers?
 
Because THAT's what happened.
 
 :lol:
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Tankanidis
 
"What people are trying to understand is,
 
How does introducing a new battleground suddenly make Chua fatter and all Aurin Males mouth breathers?
 
Because THAT's what happened."
 
couldn't begin to tell ya. i have never worked in this field, and wouldn't dream of trying to figure it out.
 
what i do know, from playing these for many years, is that it does  happen. in every game i have played, there is this. something breaks and it takes a few weeks to find becasue it winds up being some little bit of code they never thought would hav anything to do with the part that broke.
 
it happens.	
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{| class="blockquote"
What people are trying to understand is,
 
How does introducing a new battleground suddenly make Chua fatter and all Aurin Males mouth breathers?
 
Because THAT's what happened.
 
 :lol:
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All things considered, this has been one of the most successful launches I've seen in MMOs. To go into an MMO on release and not expecting at least a pile of bugs is quite frankly absurd. This is the first content drop that caused major issues that made the game somewhat unplayable for certain classes (Spellslinger wild barrage/fire issues that gimps PvE playability).
 
So, two months in they had their first game-breaking patch, which they are actively fixing rather quickly (the fire ability issue looks to be somewhat fixed, and havent heard anything on barrage). And as a former comp sci guy, it's amazing how changing something in one area of code could bork out something completely different within the program. My favorites are when something completely unrelated to the changed area of code goes bonkers. Also, there are wonderful issues that can arise when going from an isolated network with a limited amount of concurrent users to something with the concurrent userbase somewhere in the thousands to the millions.
 
Think of it as weight testing on a wooden bridge. Sure, the bridge holds up fine when transporting a family of 5, or even a bus of 30... but let's see what happens when you have a tank parade drive across it. Something that might not come up in a small group might come up in a giant group, and certain levels of users can only really be obtained during live.
 
Also, the Chua going from Chip and Dale to Monterrey Jack is kinda funny.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You don't release from a branch, you do your changes in a branch, merge them into the mainline, and release from mainline.
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Call software development as complex as you like. I'm sure it is with multiple teams, some of whom don't even talk to each other.
 
That doesn't really justify them not even knowing what's actually contained in their content drops, but I can see how it feels like it does.	
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			Anticipation for a new patch has nothing to do with new features, content, etc ... it is the fear of what have they broken this time.	
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So for those who say bugs are expected, just as a quick roll off the top of my head of the number of pretty major issues I experienced within about 5 minutes of login:
 
Spellsurged ignite can be cast while sprinting.
Spellsurging charge 1 vitality burst causes an 8 second cooldown (EG: Vitality burst charge 3), that is not visible on the UI.
This bug also causes the telegraph for vitality burst to stick to your screen until you successfully cast it.
Same goes for Sustain.
Aurin models reverted to beta status (Okay, to be fair my friend noticed this, I don't play an Aurin!)
My Chua (That I don't really play...) suddenly gained a few pounds.
Cooldowns are not properly updating with trigger fingers.
(Now fixed) Wild Barrage was firing in a full circle around me.
(Now fixed) Spell surged ignite had a 1 second cast despite being at T4.
Healing Aura doesn't activate from healing abilities.
Healing Aura does activate from charged shot. What the hell.
Into the Fray (Soldier ability) is still broken (And possibly other path abilities)
 
I could keep going. And again, these are all things that I simply noticed within 5 minutes of logging in.
 
I could probably find more, but I haven't even wanted to play the game, as healing is unplayable at the moment for me. Fun times! The best part about it? The healing abilities weren't even touched this patch, yet they broke entirely. I'm sorry, say "It's complex!" from the rooftops all day, this is unacceptable. The product is not functioning for me. At all. Is this what I have to look forward to? A game that I can't play every time it patches?
 
BONUS ROUND: As shown in the screenshot, they have yet to fix vacuum loot sticking to your screen constantly as well!	
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			Everyone on the internet is a "lead programmer" or "it professional" most people are sick of hearing this nonsense...IF you are a lead programmer or it professional,how do you find all this time to play games and post on game forums?My guess is most of these "lead programmers" or "it professionals" are filling burritos at taco bell... or making big macs.Prove me wrong and post an actual screen shot of your monthly pay slip,for your "programming job" or stfu with that BS.I challenge any of these so called "programmers" or "it professionals" to this task.Waiting for witty response....with  screenshot included.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Everyone on the internet is a "lead programmer" or "it professional" most people are sick of hearing this nonsense...IF you are a lead programmer or it professional,how do you find all this time to play games and post on game forums?My guess is most of these "lead programmers" or "it professionals" are filling burritos at taco bell... or making big macs.Prove me wrong and post an actual screen shot of your monthly pay slip,for your "programming job" or stfu with that BS.I challenge any of these so called "programmers" or "it professionals" to this task.Waiting for witty response....with  screenshot included.
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{| class="blockquote"
Everyone on the internet is a "lead programmer" or "it professional" most people are sick of hearing this nonsense...IF you are a lead programmer or it professional,how do you find all this time to play games and post on game forums?My guess is most of these "lead programmers" or "it professionals" are filling burritos at taco bell... or making big macs.Prove me wrong and post an actual screen shot of your monthly pay slip,for your "programming job" or stfu with that BS.I challenge any of these so called "programmers" or "it professionals" to this task.Waiting for witty response....with  screenshot included.
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			it's not irrelevent..the op is basing his opinion on merits that are in question.	
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			black out the names..lets see the numbers.Im sure you dont have them.	
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{| class="blockquote"
it's not irrelevent..the op is basing his opinion on merits that are in question.
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{| class="blockquote"
black out the names..lets see the numbers.Im sure you dont have them.
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			I cringed the moment I saw the post explaining any transparency into their dev processes. I knew the only answer would be for people to jump on it an criticize, even if they really don't know enough of the details to do so.	
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Cripplingly, painfully so. His present employment has really no bearing on an understanding of the process of software development. You want to make trouble and talk about something else.
 
Go.
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I will not blame the developers only.  Patch was for nearly a month in the PTR.  Devs asked a lot of times for people to go there and test the patch.
 
So by extension, that means if (and a big IF) the developers failed, the all the people that went there also failed.
 
I personally due to my slow DSL, and some abuse of my part on other downloads the same month, I decided to skip that one.
 	
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{| class="blockquote"
Chua is NOT posting personal documents on Internet.
Not for random on Internet.
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{| class="blockquote"
I will not blame the developers only.  Patch was for nearly a month in the PTR.  Devs asked a lot of times for people to go there and test the patch.
 
So by extension, that means if (and a big IF) the developers failed, the all the people that went there also failed.
 
I personally due to my slow DSL, and some abuse of my part on other downloads the same month, I decided to skip that one.
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{| class="blockquote"
I will not blame the developers only.  Patch was for nearly a month in the PTR.  Devs asked a lot of times for people to go there and test the patch.
 
So by extension, that means if (and a big IF) the developers failed, the all the people that went there also failed.
 
I personally due to my slow DSL, and some abuse of my part on other downloads the same month, I decided to skip that one.
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{| class="blockquote"
how do you find all this time to play games and post on game forums? My guess is most of these "lead programmers" or "it professionals" are filling burritos at taco bell... or making big macs.
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{| class="blockquote"
Haha right because those jobs pay so well you can afford working only a few hours a week. And then pay for a rig that runs Wildstar and a subscription.
Did you even think this through beyond "I want to insult people by questioning their social standing"?  :rolleyes:
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			if you want to claim you are a "lead programmer" then post your damn credentials!...if you cant or wont then you can expect everyone to take you with a grain of salt.The only programming you are doing is on the deep fryer at MCdonalds.	
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if you want to claim you are a "lead programmer" then post your damn credentials!...if you cant or wont then you can expect everyone to take you with a grain of salt.The only programming you are doing is on the deep fryer at MCdonalds.
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Just for clarity. All those spellslinger bugs I mentioned?
 
Yeeeahhh....
 
A dev even replied to it. That just makes me more sad.
 
EDIT: Also people, stop replying to Eraizer. Damn.	
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{| class="blockquote"
if you want to claim you are a "lead programmer" then post your damn credentials!...if you cant or wont then you can expect everyone to take you with a grain of salt.The only programming you are doing is on the deep fryer at MCdonalds.
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The irony of all of this is the name of the patch itself. It couldn't be more of a double entendre to Carbine, I'm sure. To me, this whole patch was like throwing gas into a fire to try and put it out.
 
"SABOTAGED - OURSELVES...!"	
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{| class="blockquote"
Haha right because those jobs pay so well you can afford working only a few hours a week. And then pay for a rig that runs Wildstar and a subscription.
Did you even think this through beyond "I want to insult people by questioning their social standing"?  :rolleyes:
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Why is anyone concerned about whether someone is a lead programmer?
 
There are TONS of lead programmers in the world and most don't work crazy shifts. And I'm sure many fit the demographics of Wildstar's target audience pretty well.	
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{| class="blockquote"
If Chua smack you around with screenshot and credentials, will Human openly admit was a cupcake, and make public apology to Carbine and users here?
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{| class="blockquote"
Why is anyone concerned about whether someone is a lead programmer?
 
There are TONS of lead programmers in the world and they don't work crazy shifts. And I'm sure many fit the demographics of Wildstar's target audience pretty well.
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{| class="blockquote"
ill openly appollogize to any person that proves their credentials...i wont appollogize to the rest of the kids here who obviously dont know shit
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{| class="blockquote"
ill openly appollogize to any person that proves their credentials...i wont appollogize to the rest of the kids here who obviously dont know shit
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{| class="blockquote"
Why is anyone concerned about whether someone is a lead programmer?
 
There are TONS of lead programmers in the world and most don't work crazy shifts. And I'm sure many fit the demographics of Wildstar's target audience pretty well.
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{| class="blockquote"
 
Chua expect apology now.
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			so many tools on the internet it's a wonder it's broke so often...	
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{| class="blockquote"
lol i see where you said what you supposedly did..i can add that to my resume too...hell you can add whatever you want to your resume...if you are expecting an appollogy for some crap you "claimed" you did im sorry not goona happen.
 
 
" I sucessfully flew to the moon and planted a crop of corn there" see what i did there?...please...lol.
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{| class="blockquote"
lol i see where you said what you supposedly did..i can add that to my resume too...hell you can add whatever you want to your resume...if you are expecting an appollogy for some crap you "claimed" you did im sorry not goona happen.
 
 
" I sucessfully flew to the moon and planted a crop of corn there" see what i did there?...please...lol.
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next time I decide to scan my pay slip into the computer I'll be sure to put it up for your approval *rolls eyes*
 
oh wait, I forgot. I dont care if you believe me or want to believe what I say or not.	
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{| class="blockquote"
You didn't answer us - why not post your credentials first?
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{| class="blockquote"
You didn't answer us - why not post your credentials first?
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{| class="blockquote"
next time I decide to scan my pay slip into the computer I'll be sure to put it up for your approval *rolls eyes*
 
oh wait, I forgot. I dont care if you believe me or want to believe what I say or not.
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{| class="blockquote"
lol i see where you said what you supposedly did..i can add that to my resume too...hell you can add whatever you want to your resume...if you are expecting an appollogy for some crap you "claimed" you did im sorry not goona happen.
 
 
" I sucessfully flew to the moon and planted a crop of corn there" see what i did there?...please...lol.
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{| class="blockquote"
you cant afford working only a few hours a week because THINGS HAVE TO GET DONE no matter how much you make.Kid you just proved you are flipping those burgers.
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{| class="blockquote"
Okay,
Thanks for proving what a a cupcake you are. It's pretty obvious you have no clue how the real world works, or how even LinkedIN works.
I think we can all agree now that you're just out here trolling now, and ignoring obious facts thrown into your face.
Keep trying while the grown ups add you to ignore now and go back to the discussion at hand.
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{| class="blockquote"
linked IN....lol ok bro supersize that for me would you
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			Have even the pro derailers learned not to answer attempted derailments now?	
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			you cant post some nonsense you wrote about yourself and expect it to be taken seriously.	
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Unbelievable :)
 
How many reports does it take to bury troll posts again? Anyone know?	
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			lets see some dollas for all that important stuff? or did they pay chua in gummy bears?	
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{| class="blockquote"
linked IN....lol ok bro supersize that for me would you
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Just going to plop this right back down here since all that has happened is people keep feeding Eraizer. Maybe people just need a shiny new post to distract them from his trolling.
{| class="blockquote"
So for those who say bugs are expected, just as a quick roll off the top of my head of the number of pretty major issues I experienced within about 5 minutes of login:
 
Spellsurged ignite can be cast while sprinting.
Spellsurging charge 1 vitality burst causes an 8 second cooldown (EG: Vitality burst charge 3), that is not visible on the UI.
This bug also causes the telegraph for vitality burst to stick to your screen until you successfully cast it.
Same goes for Sustain.
Aurin models reverted to beta status (Okay, to be fair my friend noticed this, I don't play an Aurin!)
My Chua (That I don't really play...) suddenly gained a few pounds.
Cooldowns are not properly updating with trigger fingers.
(Now fixed) Wild Barrage was firing in a full circle around me.
(Now fixed) Spell surged ignite had a 1 second cast despite being at T4.
Healing Aura doesn't activate from healing abilities.
Healing Aura does activate from charged shot. What the hell.
Into the Fray (Soldier ability) is still broken (And possibly other path abilities)
 
I could keep going. And again, these are all things that I simply noticed within 5 minutes of logging in.
 
I could probably find more, but I haven't even wanted to play the game, as healing is unplayable at the moment for me. Fun times! The best part about it? The healing abilities weren't even touched this patch, yet they broke entirely. I'm sorry, say "It's complex!" from the rooftops all day, this is unacceptable. The product is not functioning for me. At all. Is this what I have to look forward to? A game that I can't play every time it patches?
 
BONUS ROUND: As shown in the screenshot, they have yet to fix vacuum loot sticking to your screen constantly as well!
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			Again everone is a programmer or an IT professional....everyone...ya right.	
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{| class="blockquote"
Unbelievable :)
 
How many reports does it take to bury troll posts again? Anyone know?
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{| class="blockquote"
Unbelievable :)
 
How many reports does it take to bury troll posts again? Anyone know?
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{| class="blockquote"
I find that ignore works the first time every time.
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{| class="blockquote"
Doesn't convince others to stop following their derailments like a Pied Piper, though.
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{| class="blockquote"
Doesn't convince others to stop following their derailments like a Pied Piper, though.
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{| class="blockquote"
Depends on which side of the "Wildstar is fine why are you whining" and "You guys are really wrecking this great thing you made" discussion they're on, I find. He's derailing an issue thread. That's pretty strong shielding.
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It is pretty unfathomable what their QA was up to with this latest Patch, and what their Test Plan looked like.
 
Devs: We're changing a lot of the Spellslinger abilities.
 
QA: We'll make sure to test them all.
 
Yet they still missed that Wild Barrage was 360 degrees? How can this possibly happen.
 
Me-thinks there were some final last minute bug fixes that got in, and they didn't have time to do a full QA, so they did spot-testing and thought it was OK. That's how things usually get broken.	
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{| class="blockquote"
It is pretty unfathomable what their QA was up to with this latest Patch, and what their Test Plan looked like.
 
Devs: We're changing a lot of the Spellslinger abilities.
 
QA: We'll make sure to test them all.
 
Yet they still missed that Wild Barrage was 360 degrees? How can this possibly happen.
 
Me-thinks there were some final last minute bug fixes that got in, and they didn't have time to do a full QA, so they did spot-testing and thought it was OK. That's how things usually get broken.
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{| class="blockquote"
It is pretty unfathomable what their QA was up to with this latest Patch, and what their Test Plan looked like.
 
Devs: We're changing a lot of the Spellslinger abilities.
 
QA: We'll make sure to test them all.
 
Yet they still missed that Wild Barrage was 360 degrees? How can this possibly happen.
 
Me-thinks there were some final last minute bug fixes that got in, and they didn't have time to do a full QA, so they did spot-testing and thought it was OK. That's how things usually get broken.
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{| class="blockquote"
Except all of these issues were reported far ahead of time.
 
There's no excuse.
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{| class="blockquote"
Except all of these issues were reported far ahead of time.
 
There's no excuse.
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I'll have to say it again because this discussion is insane:
Carbine doesn't care what you think of their process/pipeline/credentials, you don't have all the information.	The average player doesn't care about the process.	Players don't like when the game is broken and they don't care how it happened.	Carbine knows what's "in the pipeline," but players don't and they won't wait around for months based on promises.	Players have an abundance of games to play today, they won't put up with a buggy game, they'll just move on.
I like playing this game (when it works). I want to see it succeed and grow. The ridiculous bugs, QA mishaps, and slow frequency of balancing fixes are a problem most players won't put up with for very long.
 
I hope Carbine sees the issue here. Sometimes it's hard to see the problem when you're inside the system or love it too much.	
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{| class="blockquote"
I'll have to say it again because this discussion is insane:
Carbine doesn't care what you think of their process/pipeline/credentials, you don't have all the information.	The average player doesn't care about the process.	Players don't like when the game is broken and they don't care how it happened.	Carbine knows what's "in the pipeline," but players don't and they won't wait around for months based on promises.	Players have an abundance of games to play today, they won't put up with a buggy game, they'll just move on.
I like playing this game (when it works). I want to see it succeed and grow. The ridiculous bugs, QA mishaps, and slow frequency of balancing fixes are a problem most players won't put up with for very long.
 
I hope Carbine sees the issue here. Sometimes it's hard to see the problem when you're inside the system or love it too much.
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{| class="blockquote"
I'll have to say it again because this discussion is insane:
Carbine doesn't care what you think of their process/pipeline/credentials, you don't have all the information.	The average player doesn't care about the process.	Players don't like when the game is broken and they don't care how it happened.	Carbine knows what's "in the pipeline," but players don't and they won't wait around for months based on promises.	Players have an abundance of games to play today, they won't put up with a buggy game, they'll just move on.
I like playing this game (when it works). I want to see it succeed and grow. The ridiculous bugs, QA mishaps, and slow frequency of balancing fixes are a problem most players won't put up with for very long.
 
I hope Carbine sees the issue here. Sometimes it's hard to see the problem when you're inside the system or love it too much.
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{| class="blockquote"
why do we have new bugs?
 
welcome to software design
 
I work in tech support for a software company and as of yet, have never seen something as complicated as an mmo that hits a live server that you can test of the load or any and all eventualities.
 
not saying it shouldnt be perfect, but it seems like you have not been exposed to mmo releases or patches much.
 
perhaps they should hire you
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Hey Everyone - 
 
I just wanted to poke my head in and remind you to keep all conversation on-topic. We hate locking threads, and this one still has the potential to get back in line.
 
Thanks,
Team WildStar	
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