146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-7

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== Content ==
			I say let them LFR. As long as Carbine doesn't cave and make GA and ds easier when the noobs complain, I don't care if they LFR. Srsly won't effect my experience at all.	
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You think " Go play a different game" Or "This game isn't for you" is toxic? 
 
Oh you would love the LoL community. If someone doesn't have time due to personal life ect then MMO's aren't for them. Bam Boom ahfilqehygfkfhlgh done simple understand?
 
Does content get added so it can attract those types of players? Yes do you know why? MONEY. Do you know what else those players bring? Complaints. So fkn many of them, Because little things are added to try and get those people to drop a little cash more stuff needs to be added to keep those dumb asses happy because they don't understand the genre they have stepped into. Then when content is added once it is finished they expect more content straight away. Do you know how long raiders have waited for the next tier? Guess.
 
The people who sit and cry for more content to be added week in week out really are that stupid to of started playing an MMO.
 
Oh i cant prestige in COD but look at all the other guys max prestige thats not fair, I better go complain about it.
 
Shit you not thats what you sound like. Not casuals because i know a lot of casuals who play MMO's because of the gameplay even though they know they wont see all the content. The people who come on here and complain aren't casual they are just stupid to believe that content should be made around the way they want to play and use Wildstars lack of population as an excuse to try and back it up. Like no the reason this game failed wasn't because it wasn't casual friendly its because the skill cap was aimed so high.
 
Has the skill cap changed? Yea everything has been nerfed into the fkn ground. Is it still hard to a degree? For some yea it is for others we have been bored for ,months because of the skill ceiling being dropped so others can access the content.
 
Yet here yous are still bitching and moaning. " Oh the content isn't accessible " Do you actually believe that or are you trying to get told to stfu by others on the forums so you can cry elitist?
 
Oh god yasfan " Incredibly self-centered" Thats amusing coming from someone who understands nothing about the content in the game at the moment yet wants content to be added so YOU can play it. If that meant putting on hold content for others you don't care YOU just want whats best for you and hide it behind utter bullshit statements.
 
Yous wonder why this game fails. Take a look at the fkn dribble you people post on here and you will understand why the moment new players interested in this game come on these forums are leave and dont come back.
 
Good job people good job
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Has anybody thought about the possibility of an "ez mode" or "casual server" where you pretty much can't die and everything is free?
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That's an awesome idea. They should totally provide a server that is SO easy and SO braindead that they manage to give the casual playerbase access to the full range of content in such a condescending way that they insult that audience at the same time they provide content for it.
 
They can call the new update "The Final Nail In The Coffin".
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I see nothing wrong with content for everyone as long as they don't remove my engaging gameplay
 
but it's not the end of the world either way, really.	
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I see nothing wrong with content for everyone as long as they don't remove my engaging gameplay
 
but it's not the end of the world either way, really.
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The hilarious thing is, it would actually have the opposite effect really since it would provide the company with more money so they could expand the team to provide more content for everyone.
 
Opponents of content for casual players are basically cutting of their own nose to spite their face. Either way, the result is fun to watch.
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			You guys should just stop. Idk what you're even arguing about.	
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Partially true. It really could go several different ways though, and if this thread has done anything at all positive then I suppose its to send a clear message to Carbine "look, whatever you do, you need to be super careful not to spite one audience for another".
 
Nothing wrong with cautionary tales of course, and the back and forth here wouldn't even happen if people didn't have the belief that this game has something about it worth investing in.
 
So yeah,maybe bickering sucks. But you know what? Were here and we all care about the game. That's awesome pie no matter which way you slice it.
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-snip-
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You think " Go play a different game" Or "This game isn't for you" is toxic? 
Oh you would love the LoL community. If someone doesn't have time due to personal life ect then MMO's aren't for them. Bam Boom ahfilqehygfkfhlgh done simple understand?
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Lol. The f2p logic on the forums is funny asf. 
 
Game too hard = Cry like a baby and see who supports me.
Dont get support= Must be elitist 
Elitist doesn't care= Child
 
git gud scrub
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I see many great suggestion in here that could improve the longlivety of the game...
 
here is a little list of Things i think will help players stick around longer:
 
somehow instance or phase the World bosses so that they are playable and somewhat of a challange. Right now its a lag-fest and absolutely no movement required..the boss is Down in 5 to 15 sec..
make the Explorations and adventures 20 man..THIS would be very cool. As it could be an alternative to the harder raiding..also..needs to reward propper gear..at least vet Dungeon and world boss gear.
Apply the same Lock-out rules per boss that WOW has..this has been a tremendous success in wow and it will be here too!
Make the warplot into massiv BG's or something like wintergrasp/ashran (from WOW)
LFR? but not the wow way. I would rather have it..que up for raid, but same difficulty Level. Makes it FAR easier for pugging!!!!
 
The following statments are my own opinion but i think it speaks for many ppl:
 
Casuals players (and others) in mmo's like to play along side other ppl, even though making Close friends is hard since Casuals players are mostly not online. One of the great Things about e.g. gw2 was the WWW. You could just toss yourself in there and play alongside other ppl towards objectives without speaking to anyone for the Whole day..still massiv fun and you still contributed to "Your realm". Sure..there are more dedicated ppl that take the lead and Write in chat where to go etc...and you could choose to follow them or not..many did:) Also this goes for the massiv pvp Battles in wow. Same goes for the LFR in wow...you can enter and have some fun With other random ppl and you can WALK AWAY instantly without letting other ppl Down..cause you would be replaced by a New random from the que!!!
			
				
	Edited December 15, 2015 by styrm	
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The existence of less difficult versions of the same content require resources better spent on new content. Multiple difficulties is a bad thing, they shave abilities off bosses intead of creating new ones. Multiple raids of varying difficulty is superior to multiple difficulties of the same raid. Casual players have shiphands. And dungeons to aim for. If you want more casual content you should complain about the lack of incentives to do adventures rather than the lack of easy mode raids.
 
Stop pretending the game will "go down in flames" unless they add LFR. It will not solve anything, adding LFR is unlikely to "provide the company with more money, more content for everyone" as there are already big hits like WoW and FFXIV offering this kind of experience. Wildstar's got its niche, what it needs now is steady income so that new content can be added regularly. If the game can't be sustained despite the recent switch to F2P Carbine need to prepare the game for steam, make sure it's playable at the next big launch.
 
It's amusing that some of you praise Wildstar's combat as its best feature and then says it needs LFR to thrive.	
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Shiphands are *cupcake* poor boring..Casuals dont want. Casuals do run Dungeons but there is NO gear progression to be found there for a casual player after a while...
 
Casuals wanna raid too! Allow them! We dont need to change difficulty..just allow quing for current difficulty raids, and do something about Lock-outs...
			
				
	Edited December 15, 2015 by styrm	
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You know what I'm tired of?
 
I'm tired of players who would rather see the game go down in flames than allow the existence of less difficult versions of the full range of content that casual players could participate in, even if more challenging versions of content remained intact in all their hardcore glory and remained the sole source of the best rewards in the game.
 
I'm tired of people who are so intellectually dishonest that they seriously try to defend toxic comments like "go play some other game" as if somehow it isn't a thinly-veiled "GTFO" but is instead helpful advice.
 
I'm tired of people so incredibly self-centered that they think it would be "better for everyone concerned" if the entire game studio were shut down, everyone in it lost their jobs, and everyone currently playing the game were forced out by server shutdowns than it would be for the game to have an inclusive rather than exclusive endgame design.
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You know what I'm tired of?  People saying that it's because of us casuals that the game needs easier versions of its content.  Just because a person is a casual player doesn't mean they can't play the game at it's current difficulty.  And I'm pretty sure that there are casuals engaging in the "hardcore" aspects of the game.  Casual =/= needs easier content.
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I believe anyone who has stepped foot in Datascape is considered hardcore by Yasfan.
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Having variable difficulty modes of the same content with variable rewards is NOT a bad thing.
Reduce the rewards for easier difficulties and increase them for harder difficulties.  Done.
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I say let them LFR. As long as Carbine doesn't cave and make GA and ds easier when the noobs complain, I don't care if they LFR. Srsly won't effect my experience at all.
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Shiphands are *cupcake* poor boring..Casuals dont want. Casuals do run Dungeons but there is NO gear progression to be found there for a casual player after a while...
 
Casuals wanna raid too! Allow them! We dont need to change difficulty..just allow quing for current difficulty raids, and do something about Lock-outs...
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I'd also be interested to see what would happen if you made it so Genetic Monstrosity (nor Gravatron, nor HMM) would lock you to GA and then added them to the T3 Contract list.
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We've been through your first point a million times. A million and one isn't going to help us agree. I don't think an easier version of the current raids would do anything good for this game, and I think it would cause burnout for players and extra strain on the developers.
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I have absolutely told friends that this probably wouldn't be a good fit for them before. I never want to, but if I'm a good friend and the game isn't going to be a good fit, I tell the truth. WS can't be all things to all people.
 
I didn't say every instance of "maybe this isn't for you" is decent. Obviously not the hello kitty stuff. But when it's clear that someone is looking for a game fundamentally different than WS, there is no harm it tell them they probably won't be happy here.	
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Also, if there were a way to add the GA minis to the T3 contract board, that would be cool too. Maybe take them off the lockout and start putting up T3s for them. That would get more people in the door to GA.
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			nvm XP
			
				
	Edited December 15, 2015 by beattlebilly	
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Yes, because if there's one thing the raids just don't have enough of, it's rewards for doing them.  :lol:
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Yes, because if there's one thing the raids just don't have enough of, it's rewards for doing them.  :lol:
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 Wildstar's got its niche, what it needs now is steady income so that new content can be added regularly.
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But when it's clear that someone is looking for a game fundamentally different than WS, there is no harm it tell them they probably won't be happy here.
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 I personally think gravitron is an awesome fight to do.  
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It's not really fundamentally different than any other big mmo though. All of the rules that apply for them, also apply for this. This game is close to rockbottom now so saying things like 'x feature will ruin the game' is just flat out lying; the only way is up afterall. (at least I would hope it is)
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The combat, raids, and dungeons are way, way, WAY better than WoW.
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Now, Olivar, there's no reason to be so hard on yourself. I know a few people who have killed System Daemons who I consider very reasonable, friendly folks, not a hint of elitism in 'em.
So if you are in fact an elitist jerk, it really has nothing to do with your progress through the raids.
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Let's be real here, this game is basically WoW with a different setting, a much better engine, decent player housing and worse everything else.
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But yet I'm playing this and not WoW. 
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That's great; now we just need to convince all those other mmo players to come by and enjoy this game and all will be well in the land, but it's kinda hard when the features they're used to and enjoy from other mmos are missing.
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We're talking about the minis, not "the raids". Minis are a part of the raids, they are not the whole thing. They are the very first step. And the rewards are modest, but way better than world bosses, and I don't think they are any more challenging (except that you can zerg the world bosses). Actually, the rewards are good enough that people *should* be doing them, but they don't. I don't actually know why. People will farm the *cupcake* out of world bosses, but not the GA minis. Probably because of lockout.
 
The minis in GA are not hard. It wouldn't be difficult for a bunch of dungeon geared people to get together and drop them. Honestly, most raiders blow by these minis because there are better incentives elsewhere in the dungeon. The only reason we kill Genetic Monstrosity is to open up a graveyard.
 
The idea of adding a T3 contract would be to create a day where stepping into GA is hyped, and the task is easy and reasonable. I'll bet a lot of people who've never stepped foot inside GA would enjoy this. And yes, it might show them that GA isn't as big and scary as they might imagine.
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(not a snarky question)  Which features?  
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A few from the top of my head. A decent and well structured endgame progression system for casual endgame players. (that would include raids, not just crappy world bosses) Raids that lock players to the loot as opposed to the instance. The ability to queue for more than one thing at a time. A group finder that encourages players to help each other, rewards the lesser played roles and encourages people to play group content of all levels so that the queue times are accceptable. The ability to engage in endgame PvP (Warplots) without having to wait for hours. Account bound everything so players don't have to repeat the same grinds on alts. The ability to find advertising guilds quickly and easily in game. Some form of content gating that keeps people out of content they're not prepared for would also be nice to prevent griefing.
 
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The idea of adding a T3 contract would be to create a day where stepping into GA is hyped, and the task is easy and reasonable. I'll bet a lot of people who've never stepped foot inside GA would enjoy this. And yes, it might show them that GA isn't as big and scary as they might imagine.
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WoW's dungeons/raids have never been bad, it's just that the combat is boring in comparison to WildStar because the engine is old and restrictive. Simply put, WildStar's biggest ace (and the main reason anyone cares about it) is the engine.
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			curious, is wow the only game that does loot lockouts vs raid lockouts that wildstar does?	
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Other than being 50 no contract today has any sort of prerequisite and dungeons are still a huge blocker for many people.  Unless you have a well geared group with people that know what they're doing, Genetic Monstrosity will eat their lunch as will the egg rooms.
 
Even if those were made accessible to those that haven't finished attunement (and I think they should) I really wouldn't want to see this put into the contract rotation until and unless the players have a bit more control over which T3 they get.  If for nothing else, a fresh 50 won't have the gear for it (or the Dungeon contract for that matter).
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curious, is wow the only game that does loot lockouts vs raid lockouts that wildstar does?
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			Loot lockouts would really only benefit GA at this point, so maybe that's the place to start.	
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It does both.  LFR/Normal/Heroic are all loot lockouts.  Mythic (highest level/hardest) is a raid lockout like in WS.
 
I personally wish WS raids functioned like raids did pre-WoD in WoW - You're still locked to bosses, but not a specific raid ID.  Would make pugging slightly better. (I got saved to prototypes on my slinger alt, and unless that specific raid starts up again/ I run it myself, I can't do anything.  Saw a group in LFM looking for heals at prototypes... wish i could have joined).
 
I personally hate loot lockouts in WoW - it might be okay to put in on old raids when the new ones come out, but loot lockouts are NOT good for when new raids start again - split farms say hello.
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Yeah, but is WoW the only MMO that does this?  There's a big thing about loot lockouts, but they don't always work.  Goes into progressing and people having to rekill bosses already killed.  And you start running same raid multiple times.  Unless I'm mistaken on how it works.  Say you have 30 in the raid, well, you run it once with 20, than run it again for the otehr 10, but bring in 10 others.  That ssounds like a pain.
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			So you smiled at my statement, completely ignoring the part where I explained why LFR would be detrimental to the game and unlikely to provide the income it needs. Alright yasfan, keep ignoring the many issues with LFR (burnout, resources spent on faceroll mode instead of decent casual content, resources spent on tuning the same content multiple times instead of making new content etc.), keep picking select parts of other people's arguments to suit your own view.	
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So you smiled at my statement, completely ignoring the part where I explained why LFR would be detrimental to the game and unlikely to provide the income it needs. Alright yasfan, keep ignoring the many issues with LFR (burnout, resources spent on faceroll mode instead of decent casual content, resources spent on tuning the same content multiple times instead of making new content etc.), keep picking select parts of other people's arguments to suit your own view.
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Didn't you know?
That's how arguing on forums works.
You formulate a stand point based on a biased view or opinion, then defend it to death and ignore all arguments that can't be explained/countered/don't fit your plan.
I'm happy to teach you on this subject if you desire.
My tuition fee is only 1 pack of cookies an hour.
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So you smiled at my statement, completely ignoring the part where I explained why I THINK LFR would be detrimental to the game and unlikely to provide the income it needs.
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You should probably be specific. Not all cookies are created equal and all.
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Didn't you know?
That's how arguing on forums works.
You formulate a stand point based on a biased view or opinion, then defend it to death and ignore all arguments that can't be explained/countered/don't fit your plan.
I'm happy to teach you on this subject if you desire.
My tuition fee is only 1 pack of cookies an hour.
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I fixed it for you there. I get that you think that. Personally I think LFR would be awesome. 10-man versions of the existing 20-man raids would be a terrific start. I'd spend a lot of my time explaining why it would be beneficial to the game and likely to provide the income it needs, but you'll probably just pick selected parts of other people's arguments to suit your own view in response.
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The existence of less difficult versions of the same content require resources better spent on new content. Multiple difficulties is a bad thing, they shave abilities off bosses intead of creating new ones. Multiple raids of varying difficulty is superior to multiple difficulties of the same raid. Casual players have shiphands. And dungeons to aim for. If you want more casual content you should complain about the lack of incentives to do adventures rather than the lack of easy mode raids.
 
Stop pretending the game will "go down in flames" unless they add LFR. It will not solve anything, adding LFR is unlikely to "provide the company with more money, more content for everyone" as there are already big hits like WoW and FFXIV offering this kind of experience. Wildstar's got its niche, what it needs now is steady income so that new content can be added regularly. If the game can't be sustained despite the recent switch to F2P Carbine need to prepare the game for steam, make sure it's playable at the next big launch.
 
It's amusing that some of you praise Wildstar's combat as its best feature and then says it needs LFR to thrive.
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			I doubt statistics can say much, but I've talked with people who have experienced he burn out. I've gone looking for factions to LFR, and most of what I found in the long run was negative.	
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			What are "seizure like reactions"?	
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A few from the top of my head. A decent and well structured endgame progression system for casual endgame players. (that would include raids, not just crappy world bosses) Raids that lock players to the loot as opposed to the instance. The ability to queue for more than one thing at a time. A group finder that encourages players to help each other, rewards the lesser played roles and encourages people to play group content of all levels so that the queue times are accceptable. The ability to engage in endgame PvP (Warplots) without having to wait for hours. Account bound everything so players don't have to repeat the same grinds on alts. The ability to find advertising guilds quickly and easily in game. Some form of content gating that keeps people out of content they're not prepared for would also be nice to prevent griefing.
 
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I doubt statistics can say much, but I've talked with people who have experienced he burn out. I've gone looking for factions to LFR, and most of what I found in the long run was negative.
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Yeah, but is WoW the only MMO that does this?  There's a big thing about loot lockouts, but they don't always work.  Goes into progressing and people having to rekill bosses already killed.  And you start running same raid multiple times.  Unless I'm mistaken on how it works.  Say you have 30 in the raid, well, you run it once with 20, than run it again for the otehr 10, but bring in 10 others.  That ssounds like a pain.
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I'm against LFR and multiple difficulties of the same raid, not content of varying difficulty. Why I'm against this I've already explained twice so I don't think I'm the one who needs to go back and read. I didn't say the game was a success either, it was a dismal failure and it's still too early to tell if it's recovering. And I've already explained why LFR is unlikely to save it.
 
LFR/multiple difficulties cause burnout. Progressing through the same raid on multiple difficulties is inferior to progressing through one raid to a different, more challenging one. Simply implementing LFR/multiple difficulties impact everyone becuse it requires resources better spent elsewhere. I like to chill doing casual content sometimes and I'd much rather have rewarding adventures than faceroll/AFK mode GA/DS.
 
And as others have already mentioned, GA is much more accessible now than it was. LFR/multiple difficulties is pointless.	
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So you smiled at my statement, completely ignoring the part where I explained why LFR would be detrimental to the game and unlikely to provide the income it needs. Alright yasfan, keep ignoring the many issues with LFR (burnout, resources spent on faceroll mode instead of decent casual content, resources spent on tuning the same content multiple times instead of making new content etc.), keep picking select parts of other people's arguments to suit your own view.
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http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/
 
I think LFR was introduced to WoW in nov 2011	
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http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/
 
I think LFR was introduced to WoW in nov 2011
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http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/
 
I think LFR was introduced to WoW in nov 2011
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http://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/
 
I think LFR was introduced to WoW in nov 2011
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Yet ff14 also has raid finder and the servers are packed.
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			asked for statistics.  THat was the LFR where it nerfed the raids and had a lfg.  it wasnt a raid finder that was implemented for WoW in december of 09.  I have no problem with a raid finder.  none.  a LFR where you nerf the difficulty though is another story.	
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asked for statistics.  THat was the LFR where it nerfed the raids and had a lfg.  it wasnt a raid finder that was implemented for WoW in december of 09.  I have no problem with a raid finder.  none.  a LFR where you nerf the difficulty though is another story.
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Yet ff14 also has raid finder and the servers are packed.
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Its good that most of us agree that we need a que system or at least a raid finder of some sort. Along with loot lock out :)
 
Try mention this in global chat in game and you take more flak then bomber planes during ww2	
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todays generation is just too lazy/stupid to find groups on their own by making friends ingame during leveling/grouping for dungeons -> finding/creating a guild and go raiding.
there has to be easy puggable content for every part of PvE. 
thats not the wildstar i am excited about :p	
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You know what I find curious about this topic?
 
With all this "knowledge" combined, makes you wonder why some people ahve not grouped up and made their own MMORPG yet, claiming 100% market share with it.
Afterall, it's what all players want.	
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Wildstar's difficulty meant it would be a niche title and its got a niche to fill, it was supposed to be a throwback to the glory days of WoW, TBC version 2. However, its rushed release and its worst design decisions (grind, RNG etc.) made even its intended audience leave. It wasn't its difficulty that made it fail. Add LFR/multiple difficulties and you ruin one of the game's core features, progression through different raids with vastly different mechanics. The relaunch was a mess as well, queues and to some extent lag is normal but people couldn't even get past the character screen and the lag was unreal. If there aren't enough players left to sustain the game after the relaunch they still have a third big chance, steam. I understand that you might want LFR if you believe the difficulty is what made the game fail, though adding more decent casual content would be better. The game has a lot more casual content now than it did and they're working on making new players stop skipping the easier content.
 
Since we still have steam (and we don't know how the game will fare in China) I don't think LFR should be considered since it doesn't suit this game at all.	
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Not quite the same as WoW's LFR.
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you can be a critic without being a master of a skill. 
I studied game design. I CAN make a game. You know how stupid it would be for me to recruit randoms on the internet and start a large scale project like an MMO? At the same time I'm an MMO consumer. I can select which product I'm going to pay money for and I can point out the flaws in other products. You don't need to be a designer to be able to criticize games, especially when general critique is almost always the same from every person as far as Wildstar is concerned. Just like I don't need to be a cook to say that certain restaurants don't make tasty foods.
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quit playing cause it's not fun for you,
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If that data supports focusing solely on the high-end hardcore rading niche
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and this is exactly what's wrong with Wildstar. 
 
Listen to this well - you either bite the bullet and introduce what every little John and Jane is complaining about when leaving, or you die. Your critics are your consumers. You're nothing without your critics. Their vision means nothing if it's not the vision of their consumers. 
 
As to that remark that it's not a school project - that's exactly it. You need millions of dollars. You need publishers. This is why you need to create what's successful and nothing else would do. That's why it's a retarded rebuttal to go "oh you go make it!". Yes, you, you random civilian, go millions of dollars in debt making an AAA MMO.
 
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You are either completely missing the point or simply refusing to accept it.
Their vision is the only thing that matters, because it's your vision that determines what kind of customers you are getting.
If you are truly implementing every little thing that every John Doe reports when leaving the game, you will end up with a cluster*cupcake*of a mirad of features that either do not work together, do not represent a coherent system, or base line taken, are not even compatible/combinable at all.
 
Let me give you a stupidly easy example:
 
Player A quits the game because he finds that the main login button needs to be blue, whereas it now is red.
Player B quits the game because she finds that the main login button beeds to be greed, whereas now it's red.
Player C is quite happy with the red button.
 
As for your "millions of dollars".
Not a single game company in the world has "millions of dollars". Not. A . Single. One.
All of them are driven through fundings, investors and crowdsourced projects.
There's not a single company in existance that started out with the hundred of millions on their bank account for making any of the games you are playing today or have played in the past.
And this does not only apply to gaming companies. Every company in the world started with loans, own investments or insane overtime hours in the basement till 4 o'clock at night.
 
Your whole ditochomy of creating what is "successful" is false.
You never know in advance if what you are going to make is successful. There have been games that nobody heard of before, yet when they come turn to be a success. And the other side exists as well. Overhyped games that turned out to be such a disaster they shook the very foundations of the gaming industry.  (E.T for Atari anyone? that game crashed the gaming industry in the 80's)
 
Every product starts with a vision, a vision by someone who does what he does with a passion because he believes in this vision.
And if funders and investors share that vision you get the money.
And vision that does not find others to believe in will not get any funding from any source.
 
 
Welcome to starting your own gaming company 101.
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is it? I meant duty finder extends for other kinds of content (some that won't be cleared by pugs most likely), but 24 man raids are specifically described as casual and are designed to be cleared by pugs. So I would think that 24 mans are equivalent of LFR. 
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1. No company starts from an AAA MMO. That's a stupid decision as it can effectively bankrupt you for life. 
2. every product starts with market research. Unless you're 2 guys in a basement working a day job that can afford not churning in the profit required to keep an AAA MMO afloat. 
3. Wildstar is an MMO with a vision from 10 years ago. 10 years ago it might have been a good investment, now it seems, not so much. So player feedback > publisher, as publisher will have to shut this whole thing down if it doesn't bring in considerable profit. 
4. Telling your customers to go F themselves because this is not what you wanted is a sure fire way to die. If you want a game just for you, you either go indie and go small, or you build it just for yourself alone. What 1 individual wants is a bad strategy if you're aiming to make an AAA game. As AAA is business. 
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ICC raid finder added a normal mode dungeon and hard mode dungeon when the Argent (think its called that) Tournament was added as a raid.  There were 10 man versions and 25man the entire ICC.  Ulduar added hard mode encounters, such as mimiron, click the button to initiate hard mode.  They also had hard mode encounter that gave you extra loot such as Killing Yogg-soron without having the buffs.  Also I believe a couple fights were 2 boss fight, and killing A prior to B got you extra loot because more challenging.  That gave you extra loot.  Wildstar has that current system with completing challenges on bosses.  Eventually they changed it so you could change between hard mode/normal mode per boss.  So if you were having a hard time on one boss with hard mode, you could do it normal, and still progress.
 
I think the way they implemented loot lock vs instance lock was it did both, but honestly my memory is fuzzy, it has been about 6 years.  You could get locked to multiples of the same instance.  But you could only get locked to one boss for loot.  So you go into Instance A GA, cleared thru Phagemaw, but don't kill PhageCouncil.  So you are now loot locked to the first 3 bosses.  Go into Instance B, and they just have Convergence and Ohmna to do and only kill Convergence.  You kill them and get loot locked to that.  Go into Instance C, and they are Kuralek.  You can kill Kuralek, but don't get any loot for any boss but the one bosses you have not done that week is Council/Ohma.  You are now saved to 3 instances.  But you can go back to any of them and they are at whatever boss the instance is at just won't recieve loot for bosses currently killed.  You go back to Instance A and clear it later.  
 
Honestly, top guilds would "buy" instances.  Either have a couple get the final boss kill or for money.  Imagine it was that way for DS.  How many guilds would purchase from another guild an instance that was mostly cleared from the guilds that are 8/9.
 
Ha, i've always said, build on what is good with Wildstar.  Dont introduce new concepts but expand on what makes this game so great.  World bosses become Instanced.  A raid finder would be good, but honestly, I don't think it would be great to have because you will have people queue up with no runes and crap gear.  Hopefully having the attunement should be enough to weed that out unless you were carried.  And if you argue the attunement should go, well, I disagree.  The attunement is there to help players learn prior to going to a raid by teaching players on more advanced aspects of the game that is required to know for raids.  	
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ICC never had a "raid finder". Neither did ToC (the tier before at the Argent place).
 
I adore how Ulduar handled hardmodes, by dynamically changing the fight based on your choices in combat, and I appreciate that WildStar does something similar with their challenges. I think that's awesome.
 
Really, we just need a party finder tool a la FFXIV (not an LFG thing, but one where you post that you're recruiting for certain content, what roles/classes you need, etc) and the PUG scene will see a dramatic improvement.	
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Top guilds could already buy instances, I'd think.
 
But anyway- I think that loot locking GA and not DS until the new raid comes out would be the way to go.	
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I don't remember that at all. o.0
 
[edit] Are you talking about the calendar...? Because if you created an event, only people you invited could see it (or guildies, if it was a guild event). That's not at all a raid finder tool.
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by Naunet	
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Well, during wotlk you could sign up on a board for some raids you wanted to run, and add info on spec and about gear.
People could then pick people from that list when they wanted to start a raid.
I got invited more times than I imagined I would. I just signed up and then went and did things in the world and suddenly I would have an invite :)	
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			Yeah I really don't remember that feature at all, and I raided all throughout Wrath. xD Are you SURE you're not thinking of something else?	
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Well, during wotlk you could sign up on a board for some raids you wanted to run, and add info on spec and about gear.
People could then pick people from that list when they wanted to start a raid.
I got invited more times than I imagined I would. I just signed up and then went and did things in the world and suddenly I would have an invite :)
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I don't remember that at all. o.0
 
[edit] Are you talking about the calendar...? Because if you created an event, only people you invited could see it (or guildies, if it was a guild event). That's not at all a raid finder tool.
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			This thread is giving me cancer. I'm sure of it.	
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This sounds great :)
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Yeah I really don't remember that feature at all, and I raided all throughout Wrath. xD Are you SURE you're not thinking of something else?
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			Just asked my husband and he has no memory of this either... weird as heck. How did we go an entire expansion without seeing this? Do you have any screenshots or links to jog my memory? Cause google isn't helping me either. xD	
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You are either completely missing the point or simply refusing to accept it.
Their vision is the only thing that matters, because it's your vision that determines what kind of customers you are getting.
If you are truly implementing every little thing that every John Doe reports when leaving the game, you will end up with a cluster*cupcake*of a mirad of features that either do not work together, do not represent a coherent system, or base line taken, are not even compatible/combinable at all.
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Looking forward to seeing the release of OlivarWorld, with the slogan: "The Devs Are Not Listening". 
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Was just looking for it on google.
Found this page explaining it http://wow.gamepedia.com/Raid_Browser	
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			It was introduced in 3.3, here's a link to the LFR/Raid finder info here.  The Raid Finder replaced it in patch 4.3 (Dragon Soul raid/Cataclysm).  But the 3.3 one was you placed yourself in "finder" and had name, level, class, role (dps/tank/healer).  You could find a raid or create one.  Sort of like a calendar.  	
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Their vision is the only thing that matters, because it's your vision that determines what kind of customers you are getting.
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What if your vision is so bad that your game falls flat on it's face, twice? Are you allowed to change it then or no? All of these rules are confusing me a little.
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What if your vision is so bad that your game falls flat on it's face, twice? Are you allowed to change it then or no? All of these rules are confusing me a little.
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I think it's better to just keep on going. I mean surely its better for a whole company to go down in flames and everyone lose their jobs than to admit you fkced up and risk hurting your pride.
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Looking forward to seeing the release of OlivarWorld, with the slogan: "The Devs Are Not Listening". 
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I think it's better to just keep on going. I mean surely its better for a whole company to go down in flames and everyone lose their jobs than to admit you fkced up and risk hurting your pride.
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It was introduced in 3.3, here's a link to the LFR/Raid finder info here.  The Raid Finder replaced it in patch 4.3 (Dragon Soul raid/Cataclysm).  But the 3.3 one was you placed yourself in "finder" and had name, level, class, role (dps/tank/healer).  You could find a raid or create one.  Sort of like a calendar.  
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Well not exactly! You CAN change your vision, as long as your identity remains the same. So, if your vision is bad but your identity is good, it's probably ok. The issue you need to worry about is if your identity is bad. Then you're screwed.
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It's not confusing at all.
 
A vision defines what a company is going to do. If the vision is bad, it probably won't survive. The customer can offer suggestions and feedback on how to better deliver that visions, but changing it at a fundamental level is generally going to be too costly to be worth it.
 
WS has lots to improve on, but there are core pieces they have to stick with- that's where they've hitched their wagon. Now for all the "hardcore" speak, I don't think that's a part of the soul of the game. Action combat and the tone of the game make up it's soul. Housing and Dungeons/raids are examples of high quality content that are major selling points.
 
What Carbine does now is to use customer feedback to expand the game without losing its best features or compromising its vision.
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by SlyJeff	
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Jesus, this is all getting a tad too confusing.
 
All I know is that John Romero had a vision, but it wasn't a good one and look what happened to him.
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What Carbine does now is to use customer feedback to expand the game without losing its best features or compromising its vision.
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			You do know that vision wasn't their whole vision.  They understood there was also a non-hardcore crowd, and that's what they have developed for.	
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You do know that vision wasn't their whole vision. They understood there was also a non-hardcore crowd, and that's what they have developed for.
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And, no offense, I am tired of people saying this game WASN'T touted as being hardcore.
 
I was here, man. I WAS HERE. I followed every thread, every piece of media, every Dev Speak, and hung on every word spoken by every developer on every site.
 
And you know what word kept coming back up, over and over?
 
HARDCORE.
 
Hardcore raids. Hardcore PVP. Hardcore Action Combat. Hardcore Dungeons. HAAAAAAARRRRRRDCORE!!!!
 
Stephan Frost himself probably said that word two dozen times in ONE video alone. Every article mentioned that word. Every interview talked about it.
 
Seriously man, I know you love the game for it's challenge. I get it. I love the game, too. But come on, brother. Stop lying to yourself and the community by trying to tell people this game didn't try and cram HARDCORE down our throats every chance they got.
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Exactly. I'm really tired of "their vision was a hardcore game of yesteryear" stuff. It wasn't.
 
 
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the reason this thread exists is because someone is basically saying 'this game is too hardcore for me'.
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They need to see what the competitors are doing, what customers like and add that.
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Just remember that when you make your pitch, be sure to include this:
 
and this:
 
Because nothing pleases investors quite as much as hearing that you will follow your vision for as long as they'll support you, whether it ever results in a profitable product or not.
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And, no offense, I am tired of people saying this game WASN'T touted as being hardcore.
 
I was here, man. I WAS HERE. I followed every thread, every piece of media, every Dev Speak, and hung on every word spoken by every developer on every site.
 
And you know what word kept coming back up, over and over?
 
HARDCORE.
 
Hardcore raids. Hardcore PVP. Hardcore Action Combat. Hardcore Dungeons. HAAAAAAARRRRRRDCORE!!!!
 
Stephan Frost himself probably said that word two dozen times in ONE video alone. Every article mentioned that word. Every interview talked about it.
 
Seriously man, I know you love the game for it's challenge. I get it. I love the game, too. But come on, brother. Stop lying to yourself and the community by trying to tell people this game didn't try and cram HARDCORE down our throats every chance they got.
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I do not have the knowledge to build an MMO from scratch.
I have ideas on what I find good systems and what not, and if I ever end up in the position of directing the development of an MMO, then yes it's going to be with those systems that fit the view of the entire team.
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Look, I didn't watch may promotional videos so I don't know how it was billed. I know whatever I saw, it didn't scream hardcore to me. I never even intended to raid. But promotion != vision anyway.
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I'm not going to argue that at some point they didn't lose their way or get sucked into their own hype. But I saw a lot of touting of non-hardcore features in the stuff I read. I wouldn't have been here otherwise. Again, I had no intention to raid at all. I mean, I was dating a single mom with 3 kids as a single father. Who has time for #hardcore like that? I guess I was lucky I missed all the memos that the game wasn't for me.
 
But the point remains, whatever hiccups happened along the way, this was clearly never intended to be a "raid or GTFO" game. They invested too much time and energy into the other places for that.	
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But the point remains, whatever hiccups happened along the way, this was clearly never intended to be a "raid or GTFO" game. They invested too much time and energy into the other places for that.
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Well, again, look back at the original Attunement process and you'll see that "Raid or GTFO" kind of was the whole point.
 
It's not the whole point TODAY because, to be honest, they got slapped in the face by reality. The hardcores were NEVER going to keep this game afloat, but Carbine let themselves get lulled into the information-vacuum of the Black Ops forum.
 
Keep in mind, back then, Shiphands were just solo dungeons you did ONLY while leveling. Vet Shiphands were what? A secondary thought.
 
Contracts didn't exist.
 
Daily Zones didn't really exist.
 
So if you weren't working toward Attunement, you had nothing to do once you hit 50. Well, except Housing and/or RP, which is where everyone turned who loved the game enough to stick around, but who figured Attunement was too much hassle.
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just curious as to what is the main issue preventing people from doing end game content is?  is it the difficulty, the time investment, your lack of knowledge on progression?  this thread has clearly devolved into something counterproductive with no real value.
 
if it is difficulty, is practice out of the question?  have you even tried and what was your specific experience?  pug, guild group, voice comms?  dungeon or raid experience, it is pertinent.  if you havent even attempted to raid your opinion is kind of pointless because you really are speaking from no real position.  to make an opinion on something you have never done or even attempted to do is just silly.  i say if you havent, please try to get into a group and give it a shot.
 
the time investment.  if this is your main reason for wanting dumbed down content, i would say it is not really valid.  i think there can be improvements made to current things in game to fill this hole.  maybe more boss in the box encounters that are tuned lower than normal raids for those without much time and where a pug could be successful with some strategy involved, not just smash loot pinata.
 
if it is lack of knowledge, are you really too lazy to research.  if you feel like it is a chore to do, then you should probably not play mmo's or the content that would require a little bit of information gathering.  honestly this is not a pain for me, i enjoy it.  to each their own.  but to say that is hardcore or elitist is not true.  people who enjoy this content do this routinely, because this is what they like to do.  do you really want something in this game that involves no mechanics what so ever.  even expeditions have mechanics.  
 
an lfr that groups people with raid groups is not bad.  an lfr that is a queue for a raid would be fine if it was like ffxiv, when the first raid finder came out.  it was a stand alone raid solely designed for lfr.  and when the new raid tiers were added the older versions were added to the queue system.  i am not sure how much has changed it has been quite a while.  but wanting to nerf current content for the simple fact that you dont have time, or lack of knowledge are not really valid.
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by Foul Wind	
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			Dailies and vet shiphands and such didn't exist at first, but we knew they were coming. I wouldn't hold that against them or as some evidence that WildStar wasn't interested in providing more "casual", easy-access content. Plus there were adventures for easier content.
			
				
	Edited December 16, 2015 by Naunet	
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