111778-drop-3-delayed-but-how-much-page-2

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Well seeing as I PAID 80 dollars for the game and 15 dollars a month since... Yes, I expect a working product. Had this been a new release of Windows, everyone would be talking shit and it would be all over the news about how bad it is and demanding refunds etc. Why would we not hold a game company to those same standards? Are you not paying for the game? Why should we sit here and say, "yeah, take all the time you need to fix stuff that should have been working at launch"? I'm a developer and every game I play I see this. If I delivered a half working product and 4 months into launch I still had this many issues and bugs and gave my "Clients" an "When its ready" answer, I would be fired... Sooo tired of everyone thinking that we should be happy they have decided to fix their shit and give us a time frame of "When its done" when we have all PAID for a product that is extremely buggy and broken...
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You're right. Windows has never had any bugs and they've never released updates to fix them afterwards.
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I think the only part that really continues to get me is that they have acknowledged the gearing stat issues, including gear purchased/dropped with ridiculously inappropriate stats, the imbalance between raid gear drops and single stat crafted items, the rune problems (yes all of them), the PVP issues and the pending reset that has complete destroyed ranked queues, etc...
 
They have working prototypes in for at least some of those problems, and they have stuffed them in the drop 3 bucket.
 
Best decision they made was moving the amp and ability point rep drops out ahead of schedule, because it gave people something to do.  Unfortunately after a few weeks of rep grinding that is about all that most people can stomach.  What about getting one of the above problems people care about and get it in a weekly patch?
 
Now... even though I enjoy dungeons to a certain extent, I know there is no gear that drops there for me, so that takes a lot of the excitement out of it.  If I was raiding the 20 man zone, and I am not yet, I would be severely unhappy with the fact most of the drops that i COULD get would be trumped by what I currently have, and the inordinate amount of time and money to re-roll runes and add runes because the excellent rune changes are not on live, so I cannot get the nice rune reroll items yet. 
 
Not to mention that when the drop does come, that will continue to be the case, as none of those end game items will be  updated retroactively.  So all the gear I do have *MAY be outdated come patch day 1, depending on how hard they decide to ultimately nerf AP in the end, and how much they decide to buff dungeon/raid drops. 
 
I love the game and find it quite fun, but when the horse is looking around because the carrot fell off the stick 4 miles ago and he just didn't notice.. the cart isn't going anywhere.  After over a week of seeing UNKNOWN in the rated PVP queue, things don't feel like they are getting better.	
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My point was that when other software products come out they are chastised for their issues. When it comes to a game it is totally different. The player base of games treat the companies like rockstars and feel that we are entitled to play their product and *cupcake* when people complain about issues, bugs and delays... 
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You're right.  Windows has never had any bugs and they've never released updates to fix them afterwards.
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As much as I like this comparison, the problem here... I cannot take another version of Windows and install it.. or fix it myself or change the device.. or or or... I am so much dependent on what actual professionals are not doing (fixing it... at least not fast enough, as the declining population shows). I am not supporting the guy you commented on.
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You're right.  Windows has never had any bugs and they've never released updates to fix them afterwards.
 
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Well seeing as I PAID 80 dollars for the game and 15 dollars a month since... Yes, I expect a working product.
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			Haven't login in weeks, the current content is plain boring without any monthly updates.	
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I think the difference between you and I is that I perceive the product as working, and working well.
 
Are there issues to address? Yeah, and I'm glad they are looking at them. But right now, in its current state, I'm having a blast.
 
I understand that not everyone is having the same experience. But I feel like I've gotten my money's worth thus far.
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and surely you understand there are players that feel the opposite.
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Well yes. I thought I made that clear when I said "I understand that not everyone is having the same experience".
 
I was giving my perception- not negating the perception of others.
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Considering that there is only X amount of players left, we don't know the value of X, but it's a very noticeable decline in the population - it could be perceived that most players don't feel that is a finished product. Especially since many bugs were reported in the beta and wasn't dealt with before the official release.
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You mean they're cutting a major selling point of the game, because they simply don't have the talent / competence / management to live up to the game they sold?
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That's making a rather large assumption that perception of finished product and people leaving are actually linked in some way. There could be a host of other reasons why people are leaving.
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Considering that there is only X amount of players left, we don't know the value of X, but it's a very noticeable decline in the population - it could be perceived that most players don't feel that is a finished product. Especially since many bugs were reported in the beta and wasn't dealt with before the official release.
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That's making a rather large assumption that perception of finished product and people leaving are actually linked in some way. There could be a host of other reasons why people are leaving.
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I didn't say anything negating how other players or most players felt. I didn't state what others should feel. I merely stated how *I* felt.
 
Am I not allowed to state my opinion if I am (potentially) in the minority?
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Well you were referring to somebody else as well with the "I think the difference between you and I is that I perceive the product as working, and working well." I can state my opinion in regards to that as much as you can, which I btw never said you couldn't.
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Right, I said you and I had a different perspective. Then you asked if I understood that people had a different perspective from mine. Which confused me because I'd JUST said that we had a different perspective. And you then proceeded to explain to me why you believe my perspective is in the minority. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to infer about my perspective being in the minority, so I thought maybe you were saying that only majority opinions are allowed here.
 
Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, and maybe somehow we got off on the wrong foot? All I've been trying to do is give an alternative perspective because you and I are different people with different experiences, and I think all the data points are valuable.
 
If I payed $80 plus $15 per month for a game I didn't enjoy, I'd be mad. I don't discount that experience for a second; it just isn't mine.
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I read "surely you understand" as a question :)
 
From my perspective as a software developer, the way to make a project take longer and consume more resources than necessary is to set an agressive timeline. See the book "Rapid Development" by Steve McConnell.
 
If they really want to develop a solid game and that's the only factor in question, establishing a timeline is the worst thing they can do (McConnell makes this point over and over again in his book). Unfortunately, now they have paying customers to worry about who will (reasonably) want to know when they can expect delivery. There is a tension here between doing what is best for creating a great tame (which would mean no timeline at all) and keeping paying customers subbing. Unfortunately, they are going to have to give a date at some point, but the longer they can put it off the better for us in terms of getting to play a great game sooner.
 
The longer they can go without giving a deadline, the faster we will get the final product. I know that's paradoxical, but it's true everywhere I've written software. The number one way to introduce delays is to commit to a date.	
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The number one way to introduce delays is to commit to a date.
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Committing to a date is also the number one way to:
 
1) emphasize that priorities need to be set and abided by
 
2) keep a project from snowballing out of control and/or well beyond its original scope
 
3) allow anyone working on said project to manage their time appropriately and enforce accountability
 
4) keep your customers
 
At this point, describing the Drop 3 timeline as "aggressive" is a stretch. We also can't be thinking about "committing to a date" as if Drop 3 is the final patch of the game.
 
It doesn't have to be absolutely finished. It just has to show significant improvement. Anyone who's still here realizes that MMOs are always a work in progress.
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Committing to a date is also the number one way to:
 
1) emphasize that priorities need to be set and abided by
 
2) keep a project from snowballing out of control and/or well beyond its original scope
 
3) allow anyone working on said project to manage their time appropriately and enforce accountability
 
4) keep your customers
 
At this point, describing the Drop 3 timeline as "aggressive" is a stretch. We also can't be thinking about "committing to a date" as if Drop 3 is the final patch of the game.
 
It doesn't have to be absolutely finished. It just has to show significant improvement. Anyone who's still here realizes that MMOs are always a work in progress.
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Yeah, but this wasn't what everyone was saying right after drop 2.  We said they should release it when it was bug free.
 
We aren't really happy-medium people in the MMO universe.
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The decision was that it would be released with Drop 3, which at that point was given a 4-6 week timeframe. That timeframe is all but up, and it's been getting more vague instead of more informative.
 
Communication is the happy medium, and that's all I'm asking for.
 
Sometimes pressure is the only thing that makes people actually produce anything. However, my point is not to say that Carbine doesn't know how to manage its development staff. Yes, deadlines have drawbacks. However, never setting a deadline is a mistake of its own.
 
At this point, I would settle for a "goal" if we don't want to call it a "deadline"...because heaven forbid software developers be under pressure like the rest of the world. :rolleyes:
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I asked in the stream and CRB_Caydiem did mention that they do have an internal timeline.  If you want them to tell us what that is, that's fine, but God forbid they still have bugs in the system when it comes up and they push it back.  They caught enough Hell for that.
 
And we did ask them to take more time to release stuff with less bugs.
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Sometimes pressure is the only thing that makes people actually produce anything.
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refuse to believe that the old models of carrots and sticks don't apply when it comes to thought workers. But they don't. Good thought workers are almost universally self-motivated,
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You do realize that you are playing a relatively grindy MMO with lots of gold sinks, time sinks, RNGceptions and an old model that relies A LOT ON randomness and the "carrots and sticks" for motivation? I know, this is orthogonal to the question, but I don't think pressure works on software developers nor modern MMO players. If it is suboptimal for developers, it is suboptimal for the players. We all have the same psychology, we are human, so are they.
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 I DO think Carbine could do a better job with transparency and communicating.
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Actually, you have other options for your OS if you want.  Windows succeeds because nobody else is any better and they're simply more ubiquitous.
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Not super accurate. It comes down to a the difficulty and creativity needed for a task. Take doing quests for example. Assuming we are talking about the grindy quests, so you can log on press 3 buttons and do them, these are not super hard. This means that motivating us will make us better at the task. Programming software in general is not easy or straightforward, it requires creative thought. Study have shown that self motivation fosters the best and most efficient creative thought and outside motivation can even stifle creativity and self motivation. This is why many of Googles impressive ideas come out of their 10% time (like G-Mail).
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Since, ultimately, the pressure is there whether Carbine likes it or not, I feel that it's pointless to argue further about it. They'll either offer a reasonable timeline, or they'll continue to lose subs because people aren't willing to pay for time between now and when the game is fixed. That statement doesn't even need a "soon" attached to it. It's already happening.
 
However, out of curiosity and the desire to salvage some sort of constructive discussion, what do you want them to be more transparent about?
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I DO think Carbine could do a better job with transparency and communicating. I think doing those things better would be a lot better for the game than giving a goal date before they are ready.
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I do agree that they will have to offer a timeline at some point in order to retain customers. I think the more that they can push off giving a solid date, the better quality we will see. They will have to balance quality with retaining customers. It's an unfortunate place to be in, but it's where they are. That was my point.
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They are already losing customers, them keeping quiet about things doesn't help that. It creates frustration since we were originally promised one thing (monthly drops) and we get something else entirely. Imo, they are making it worse by not communicating properly and being quiet.
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That was my point.
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Yes, I saw that in one of your posts, and that I agree with. The disagreement entered in deciding what is necessary to attain such a balance, because it hasn't been found yet.
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This I could support. Even vague descriptions similar to, "Oh, we've made some really good progress with Stalker AMPs this week. As of right now, here are the related patch notes: [insert list of preliminary changes]."
 
I would even understand something like, "We ran into unexpected problems with Medic skill changes because changing [skill A] made a clear imbalance with [X, Y, Z], so we made less progress than we'd hoped." It gives the community a better understanding of balance, lets us know that they're trying different ways of fixing problems, and still communicates that they're working on problems we care about.
 
That would be a much better use of the Nexus Report, similar to the one on 9-16 where they went over housing changes that got more positive reactions from the community than I've seen for anything else in quite some time.
 
It would also spread out the community feedback, instead of having a sudden explosion when the full patch notes are released, and potentially give them the opportunity to react to the feedback.
 
If Carbine did that, by the time Drop 3 actually hits, everyone would have a decent idea of what to expect, and I think most of us would be satisfied in the meantime.
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Yes, I agree they are already losing customers and they've lost a lot already. That's going to happen when they don't have a date. However, they already tried the "let's commit to a date" approach with drops 1 and 2. The result was a lot of lost customers due to quality issues. Now they are taking a new approach: "we are going to wait until the quality is there and not commit to anything until we're sure". Yes, they will lose customers with this approach, but they were losing customers with the other, so the only question is which is worse.
 
IMO, they are taking the correct approach this time. Even if they lose 90% of their customers, if they actually deliver quality on drop 3 they have a chance of gaining folks back. If they rush drop 3 and break things, it's probably over for good.
 
I agree they could communicate more.
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I do agree, they should never have come out and said they'd to monthly drops unless they could guarantee it, obviously they thought they could, but then you could question their methods for the future. Based on experience, nothing they say or come out with will matter as they can change their minds at any point. Yes they do have a valid reason for changing their minds about the drops because quality is important. I think they just don't have enough resources (people working) to actually be able to get content out in a reasonable time, that will eventually (my own guess) result in a very small portion of players being left in the game. I can't see everything working out in all fairness, the longer it takes the further away they get to actually 'redeeming' the game. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I just don't enjoy playing MMO's when there's too few players around to be able to play the game properly, and I think this might be going that way.
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I do agree, they should never have come out and said they'd to monthly drops unless they could guarantee it
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They had been doing monthly releases since the December beta, and they'd been clear from the start that they would slow things down if they felt it necessary.
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			Early November for drop 3. In the recently posted State of the Game article.	
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Early November for drop 3. In the recently posted State of the Game article.
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			I can live with early November as long as the megaservers still get implemented in the next 2-3 weeks.	
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I can live with early November as long as the megaservers still get implemented in the next 2-3 weeks.
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Its kind of a "soft" confirmation though.
 
 
"we are on track for the later part of our 3-6 week estimate (testing might push that out still, which is why there is no hard date yet)."	
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It's just been confirmed that Megaservers is coming before Drop 3.
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"We’re currently shooting for a release early November. Release timing really depends on how things go during internal and PTR testing"-Mike Donatelli
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Hey all,
 
As some of you have already seen, we have a brand new post talking about Drop 3 and other issues, found here. So, in order to make it a little easier to keep track of feedback and questions, I'm going to close this one and ask that everyone move the conversation over there. Thanks!	
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