100624-carbine-please-take-this-to-heart

== Content ==
			
Dear Carbine,
I would first like to state that I thoroughly enjoy WildStar, the concept of the game you have made and I understand the amount of work that goes into creating a game (I myself am a programmer). With that I would like to state a few points that I think you can change to make this game even more successful that will not lose any of the hardcore that you are adamant about (and so are most of the players that came to this game.)
 
1.RNG/RNJesus/whatever you want to call it.
When most people thing of RNG they think of:
a.       mechanics not always hitting in the same spot
b.      loot tables dropping different loot from bosses
c.       rolling for loot and the literal RNG that chooses who wins
d.      the small differences in crit and hit numbers when attacking
e.      weapon or gear procs based on % to happen
What we don’t think about and what seems to be really upsetting most of your community:
a.       Blue gear/rune slots/crafted gear/purples/etc.
b.      dungeon/adventure drops at the end of the instance being so crazy
c.       crafted blues being BIS even over some raid gear that drops
 
To drive this point home, people want to feel accomplished. People want to do dungeons and adventures for a reason, not for the best RNG that can happen. No one wants 15 versions of the same item just to get the best RNG slots/stats.
Make rune slots static, set each piece to have X rune slots and each rune slot to be the same every time the item drops, no one wants RNG on this NO ONE. Create a tier of gear starting with crafted blues ->adventure blues/purples -> dungeon blues/purples -> raid gear. Make it actually worthwhile to do these runs and not just for attunement/saying you did it (which is happening whether you want to admit it or not).
 
2.Risk vs reward
 
Players don’t feel the amount of time/work that it takes to do an instance is equal to what you get out.
               
a.       Loot drops are RNG
b.      Adventures are fairly easy but take to long for the RNG
c.       Dungeons are only looked at for attunement and not for a fun factor
 
With the amount of RNG that has been implemented and the bad tiering of items you have created one set of instances that people farm, even though you have made the crafted gear better in most instances, on top of the RNG aspect of gear that can drop and the stats on that gear. With this you have created dungeons that aren’t fun, and are looked at as just a stepping stone for attunement. People do not repeat them unless they are helping others get attuned. For the people that don't want to raid/don’t have time, this should be a staple to them. Log in, spend 25-30 minutes in an instance, make a little money, maybe get a gear piece and feel accomplished. Instead they log in, maybe do dailies, maybe do some housing, maybe craft some gear, etc. The semi-casual/semi-hardcore group (which makes up the majority of most MMOs) don’t have any real worthwhile content because of this and it’s causing you to lose numbers.
 
3.Bug fixes/Balance vs New content
You have created an image for yourselves that says we would rather drop new content than fix the current issues we have. With this new content comes new bugs and further creates more issues for your player base. I know that you have a lot of content that you already had created, but it would better suit you to fix your current issues before creating new ones for yourself. If WoW has shown us anything, players will wait for good content, especially if it is bug free (or close to it since nothing will ever be bug free). So I ask you please, stop dropping new content on our heads and start fixing what you already have. There are things that have been broken since closed beta that is still not fixed. You are two months in, those issues should be resolved by now…
 
 
 
So in conclusion:
RNG is good, just in the right way. Stop making it overly complicated. This does not come across as hardcore, this comes across as poor planning and bad execution.
 
Make it worthwhile for players to do content. Make the items static not dynamic. And for the love of god, please stop the RNG rune slots and tier your items better. NO ONE wants to go into a raid in crafted blues. That concept was never good. Crafted items should be for leveling and for entering the entry level content at max level.
 
Fix your bugs instead of creating needless new ones. This cannot be driven home more. I have read more posts about upset players dealing with bugs than anything else. If you are truly listening then listen to this part if nothing else. FIX THE BUGS FIRST, stop giving us new content to try and keep your player base.
 
I truly do love this game, and I would really like to continue playing, but with the declining player base and the reward not being worth the time put in, my love for the game is slowly dwindling.
 
 
TL; DR FIX THE BUGS CARBINE!!!!	
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Crafted gear should be better than gear looted during the 1 - 50 process and at least equal to gear looted in the top end raids imo.
 
You raid for the achievement, not for the gear....	
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I wish I could like the OP several times more over. Point #3 especially.
 
I actually made the final decision to quit when I heard that Sabotage hit the PTR. I'd hoped Carbine had learned from Strain but it seems they didn't. Between the bugs that aren't being fixed and the terrible customer service that basically gives the middle finger to anyone affected by them and asking for assistance this game feels completely unrewarding. Anything I earn can and will vanish without a trace and never be restored, dungeons will break down worse every patch and slow my guild's attunement process even when we have the content on farm, and several class abilities will just stay broken for weeks due to issues reported on day 1 of testing. It really feels like Strain received absolutely zero internal testing since it had so many obvious bugs that an epileptic rhesus monkey flailing around on the keyboard could've found dozens in ten minutes. That's saying nothing of the preexisting bugs.
 
It's a shame. This game could be so good. There's so much potential. But, speaking as a former GM of the largest progression guild on my server, nobody and I mean basically nobody gets enjoyment out of playing it because of the things stated in the OP. I've never seen a game make people hang out in TS3 instead of wanting to actually play like this one. I can only imagine it's a common problem since the main reason we wound up so big is that most other guilds were hemorrhaging worse than we were. We're about the only one left now.
 
The only people I see defending this game on a regular basis anymore are the casuals who haven't even hit max level yet and haven't seen most of the problems firsthand. Some 'hardcore' player base you got there, Carbine.	
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Crafted gear should be better than gear looted during the 1 - 50 process and at least equal to gear looted in the top end raids imo.
 
You raid for the achievement, not for the gear....
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unfortunately I do not agree and most of the player base in MMOs does not agree with that. Players want to feel accomplished and this comes in two forms. They want the achievements for raiding but they also want gear. They like the shinnies and there is no denying that. So crafted gear should not be anywhere close to as good as raiding gear. Raiding does not equal crafting in any way shape or form so the gear should not either. It should be far superior. One person spending a small amount of time and energy should not be able to create an item that is equal to what 20 or 40 people have to work together and accomplish PERIOD
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No, only the modern ADHD generation of MMO players *need* rewards for raiding.
 
Real, hardcore raiders do it for the prestige, the kudos, the achievement and to be in that elite 1%.
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No, only the modern ADHD generation of MMO players *need* rewards for raiding.
 
Real, hardcore raiders do it for the prestige, the kudos, the achievement and to be in that elite 1%.
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Wanting rewards for raiding doesn't make you a lazy ADHD scumbag. It means you're a normal person.  :)
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Yes, bleeding edge, world first guilds raid for the accomplishment. Once the accomplishment is attained, why do they continue raiding? To get better gear so that when the next tier of raid content comes out, they can be on the bleeding edge going for world firsts again.
 
I mean, if they REALLY wanted to be hardcore, they could raid in quest greens just to flaunt how awesome they are, but none of them want to do that. These guilds expect you to have the best available gear with the best available gems/enchants/runes/whateverbonusstuff and the best consumables available in high enough quantities to last you through progression raids and wipes.
 
When Tier 2 raids start coming out, these 1% guilds will expect their top raid team to be fully geared out in Tier 1 raid gear with all the best doo-dads and whatzits. If you're still in quest blues and crafted stuff, sorry, you don't get to raid until we've knocked off the last boss with the raiders that actually put in the time and effort to get the best gear.	
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Being that I have been raiding since EQ and went through the key process there, I know exactly what you are talking about here and again, this statement is wrong. Gear was huge even in EQ and people loved getting it then and still do now. The top 1% is Eugenic and Enigma. unless you are in one of those two guilds please stop...
 
I cannot agree more. the standard raider wants both rewards.
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Absolutely, which is why I would be happy with a title...or something like that.
 
What I would not want as a "reward" for playing the game is to be given gear so good that it nullifies crafting from an mmorpg completely. Thats not really a reward is it.....
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Absolutely, which is why I would be happy with a title...or something like that.
 
What I would not want as a "reward" for playing the game is to be given gear so good that it nullifies crafting from an mmorpg completely. Thats not really a reward is it.....
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No, only the modern ADHD generation of MMO players *need* rewards for raiding.
 
Real, hardcore raiders do it for the prestige, the kudos, the achievement and to be in that elite 1%.
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unfortunately I do not agree and most of the player base in MMOs does not agree with that. Players want to feel accomplished and this comes in two forms. They want the achievements for raiding but they also want gear. They like the shinnies and there is no denying that. So crafted gear should not be anywhere close to as good as raiding gear. Raiding does not equal crafting in any way shape or form so the gear should not either. It should be far superior. One person spending a small amount of time and energy should not be able to create an item that is equal to what 20 or 40 people have to work together and accomplish PERIOD
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			I agree with this post. I'm looking forward to hearing that the game is in actual working order. Like Syndea, I have decided to stop playing Wildstar until the game actually works.	
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No, only the modern ADHD generation of MMO players *need* rewards for raiding.
 
Real, hardcore raiders do it for the prestige, the kudos, the achievement and to be in that elite 1%.
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I played and raided for ages and there was always gear as reward for achievment.
 
Why should i ever spend time doing anything for nothing but a thumbs up.
 
Its like going to work without pay only to get a pad on the shoulder and a pic on the wall of shame.
 
... I meant fame. :-P	
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aside from completely negating anyone that does crafting in your statement, do you have any evidence that "most of the player base" would like to just have crafting make wicker baskets? obviously you do not do much crafting if you feel it is a "small amount of time and energy"
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Even as a casual player I have been dealing with a lot of bugs. I was kind of irritated when they released Strain and they still had so many different bugs. A friend of mine was like quit complaining they have to give content to the people that are hardcore first. Of course I disagree when there were so many bugs that hadn't been fixed.
 
Edit.  When I think of doing any kind of dungeon or adventure or raid I expect a gear drop. I am not doing it for a title or to say hey look at me I was the first to complete it. I WANT THE PRECIOUS! B)	
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see my last post including the one by roidrage.
 
And crafting is a small amount of time and energy in comparison to the work it takes to do dungeons and raids in this game
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ImperialSuns view
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The rest of the communities view
 
Imperial if you cannot see, just within 13 replies you are already becoming vastly out-numbered. PEOPLE WANT GEAR FROM RAIDS!!!!
 
Titles and banners are nice but people want gear period. Get over yourself
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Crafting is simple, hardly takes any effort, max any tradeskill in a couple hours.
Research takes longer because of the silly timegate, but that still doesn't mean that it should give us amazing gear.
 
I believe it should only be for a decent start into the end content. Even adventures would become rewarding at least then.	
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see my last post including the one by roidrage.
 
And crafting is a small amount of time and energy in comparison to the work it takes to do dungeons and raids in this game
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Chua must ask. Have crafted PROPERLY before?
Making exact needed item, not so easy.
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unfortunately I do not agree and most of the player base in MMOs does not agree with that. Players want to feel accomplished and this comes in two forms. They want the achievements for raiding but they also want gear. They like the shinnies and there is no denying that. So crafted gear should not be anywhere close to as good as raiding gear. Raiding does not equal crafting in any way shape or form so the gear should not either. It should be far superior. One person spending a small amount of time and energy should not be able to create an item that is equal to what 20 or 40 people have to work together and accomplish PERIOD
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Crafting is simple, hardly takes any effort, max any tradeskill in a couple hours.
Research takes longer because of the silly timegate, but that still doesn't mean that it should give us amazing gear.
 
I believe it should only be for a decent start into the end content. Even adventures would become rewarding at least then.
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Even as a casual player I have been dealing with a lot of bugs. I was kind of irritated when they released Strain and they still had so many different bugs. A friend of mine was like quit complaining they have to give content to the people that are hardcore first. Of course I disagree when there were so many bugs that hadn't been fixed.
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I don't need to get over myself...I just have a different opinion. That is all.
 
And I never said there should be no rewards for raiding either. What I said was rewards should be things like titles...mounts...hell even gear, fine.
 
However in a mmorpg that aspires to have a tight, interdependent community and a viable economy with a proper crafting system (which as far as I am aware, this mmorpg does aspire to those things), crafted gear should be the top end, or at least equal to raid reward gear.
 
At least that way, you get your "reward" for playing the game whilst players that enjoy crafting more than raiding can also get their reward. It would have no effect on your enjoyment of the game or playstyle would it.
 
What you are effectively saying is that "my playstyle is more important, crafters should just be making wicker baskets and potions, whilst only raiders get access to the real good stuff" - paraphrased of course.
 
So perhaps you need to get over yourself?
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I have never played an MMO, especially a successful one, where crafting gear was as good as raiding gear. Let me lay this out a different way for you. 
 
Player 1 is a crafting junkie, loves all aspects of it and wants to do everything they can with crafting in the game.
Player 2 is a hardcore raider and wants to do all of the available content in the game 
 
Player 1 logs in. Goes to the mailbox and opens X amounts of mail from his crafting circle. Get's a ton of crafting mats. He also gets X amount of money from the crafted items he listed on the AH from his last login. Depending on how large his circle is, he alone then either starts crafting or goes and farms. Once he is satisfied with either his farm or his craft he either starts crafting or begins to list or sell his gear in chat. From there he profits. No where in this scenario did he need to work with anyone else to make this happen nor did he require 19 other people to get this loot made. 
 
Player 2 logs in and goes to his mailbox, he has X amount of gold sitting there from the mats he sold on the XC. He then might do his dailies or might be logging in right before the raid and gets ready to join 19 others in said raid. He then goes into said raid and works alongside his team mates to kill trash and bosses. He cannot do this alone and requires the others to make this happen. He kills the first boss in the raid and a piece of loot drops. He has a piece of crafted gear from player 1 in the same slot that this item is for. He sees that the item that dropped is no better than the crafted item he has. He then thinks to himself, what's the point of doing this? I can just go craft this gear and not deal with raiding. 
 
See the problem there? It all comes down to wanting better items from raids. 
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He then thinks to himself, what's the point of doing this? I can just go craft this gear and not deal with raiding.
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Why shouldn't crafted gear be as good or even better than looted gear? The whole idea of crafting is to provide an alternate item progression system through the leveling process where dedicated players who put in the time (and LOTS of materials) can be rewarded for it. Something has to be the "best" and I think that should be crafting, especially for the leveling process. Carbine got it right with this.
 
Crafting gear starts to quickly get outpaced when you step into the raids right now, so there's nothing to worry about.
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But, if this player was raiding and not crafting, you have to assume he enjoys raiding and not crafting. Why would he do something he doesn't enjoy over what he does enjoy just to get a questionably better "item"?
 
That's the player's problem, not the game's.
 
Also, don't underestimate the amount of time, effort, materials and money the crafter player has to put in in order to be able to deliver goods like that...
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Star Wars Galaxies wants to have a word with you
As well as Final Fantasy Online where top tier items cannot even be obtained unless you bring in top tier crafted items from players.
Let's not forget EvE Online shall we
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{| class="blockquote"
Star Wars Galaxies wants to have a word with you
As well as Final Fantasy Online where top tier items cannot even be obtained unless you bring in top tier crafted items from players.
Let's not forget EvE Online shall we
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{| class="blockquote"
Star Wars Galaxies wants to have a word with you
As well as Final Fantasy Online where top tier items cannot even be obtained unless you bring in top tier crafted items from players.
Let's not forget EvE Online shall we
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			Whoops. Sorry for double post. TIL you cannot delete posts on these forums.	
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I am only 100% talking about WildStar. I could care less about the crafting in other games. I am not playing those games
 
It's not a players problem to want to show off the accomplishments of raiding with gear that is better than crafted. If I walk through town and I see everyone in crafted gear and know that they could make that themselves and have the BIS items in the game playing themselves then what point would I want to raid? They might as well make the game single player at that point. 
 
I'm not saying crafting needs to be useless, I am saying that it needs to be put into the right place in progression. If all you want to do is craft, then craft! Craft your heart out, make money off of it, go go go. Don't expect to make the BIS items though, it just doesn't make sense at all in am MMO
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			Anybody that says that gear progression in an MMORPG isn't required as a reward is denying their inner Lopp.  Lopp like shinies!	
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Please stop being disingenuous. You *do* get better rewards and items once you start your raid progression...
 
In my opinion Crafting IS, for the first time in a theme park, put into its right place -- its not only viable but potentially better than leveling loot drops. But that's not end game, so that's fine.
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This is how i fix it and my gearing progress
 
1-49 gear>adventure gear>dungeon gear & crafted blues & best pvp gear>20 man raids now here all bosses should drop recipes to craft purple crafting gear as good as raid drops but without a set bonus that raid gear should have but dosn't>40 man gear
 
This is how i would want it to work but it dosn't due to rng of rune slots and raid gear not having set bonuses without rune slots
raid drop epics should have 4 fixed omni slots,all 40 man orange have 5 slot omni>all pink should have 6 omni like they already do.
Stats on some items are to high like the berserker aegis level 49 shield with 52ap 
I think adventure gear main stat should be like 60 dungeon gear be at like 80 and raid gear have 100-120 of the primary stat because crafted gear right now can go up the 120s which is sometimes more that raid gear.
Opinions 
 
I know my grammer is bad thx 	
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Sandbox vs Theme Park MMOs.
 
In a game where the main focus is gathering resources, building, and expanding around the game world top-tier crafted gear makes sense because it's the highest extent to which one can play the game. On the contrary, if your main focus is playing through dungeons and raids, it's only logical that the best gear should come from that since that is the primary focus of the game and presumably it's most demanding content.
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Star Wars Galaxies wants to have a word with you
As well as Final Fantasy Online where top tier items cannot even be obtained unless you bring in top tier crafted items from players.
Let's not forget EvE Online shall we
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Beat me to it....
 
Obtaining the extremely rare and dynamically spawning mats to make the best gear in SWG required just as much time and effort (if not more) on the part of the crafter than most raids.
 
Not to mention the community interaction required for a pure crafter to even get out there in the wild and place harvesters/factories in those high level areas.
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I have never played an MMO, especially a successful one, where crafting gear was as good as raiding gear. Let me lay this out a different way for you. 
 
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Huh?
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			Since I've leveled Weaponsmith to cap in WildStar, I'll comment on that - it is too easy to craft for the product to be equitable to top end raid rewards.  The time investment to reward ratio would not be fair at all	
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Since I've leveled Weaponsmith to cap in WildStar, I'll comment on that - it is too easy to craft for the product to be equitable to top end raid rewards.  
 
The time investment to reward ratio would not be fair at all
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Since I've leveled Weaponsmith to cap in WildStar, I'll comment on that - it is too easy to craft for the product to be equitable to top end raid rewards.  
 
The time investment to reward ratio would not be fair at all
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Luckily they are not equal to top-end raid rewards.
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Luckily they are not equal to top-end raid rewards.
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To bad you get a top end raid reward for your class then it has the worst rune slots ever and it's a downgrade
 
and I guess no one even read my suggestion :(
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			It seems like people are having a much easier time crafting than I. Almost 2 weeks of waiting, close to 40 gold for the crafting vouchers to buy the schematic and then whatever weapon you craft having random runes and, of course, the dreaded overcharge (required for top notch stats) all for one weapon.	
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Luckily they are not equal to top-end raid rewards.
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			Bugs first! New content later!	
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Bugs first! New content later!
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While I agree that bug fixes should be a priority over new content the development process doesn't always accommodate that easily since Drop 1 & 2 have probably been in development a while to me it still make sense for them to release those and work on the bug fixes they can which is probably being handled by another team.
 
Out of curiosity what are these major bugs apparently the "majority" of the community are dealing with that are game breaking?
 
I have played quite a few MMOs at launch and I have to say Wildstar seems to be one of the better off in the bug category. Not perfect of course and that has just been my experience.
Nameplates was certainly one of the ones that irked me the most early on that is now better
Odd issues with items and inventory management still seems to be occurring	
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While I agree that bug fixes should be a priority over new content the development process doesn't always accommodate that easily since Drop 1 & 2 have probably been in development a while to me it still make sense for them to release those and work on the bug fixes they can which is probably being handled by another team.
 
Out of curiosity what are these major bugs apparently the "majority" of the community are dealing with that are game breaking?
 
I have played quite a few MMOs at launch and I have to say Wildstar seems to be one of the better off in the bug category. Not perfect of course and that has just been my experience.
Nameplates was certainly one of the ones that irked me the most early on that is now better
Odd issues with items and inventory management still seems to be occurring
 
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While I agree that bug fixes should be a priority over new content the development process doesn't always accommodate that easily since Drop 1 & 2 have probably been in development a while to me it still make sense for them to release those and work on the bug fixes they can which is probably being handled by another team.
 
Out of curiosity what are these major bugs apparently the "majority" of the community are dealing with that are game breaking?
 
I have played quite a few MMOs at launch and I have to say Wildstar seems to be one of the better off in the bug category. Not perfect of course and that has just been my experience.
Nameplates was certainly one of the ones that irked me the most early on that is now better
Odd issues with items and inventory management still seems to be occurring
 
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I'm not saying crafting needs to be useless, I am saying that it needs to be put into the right place in progression. If all you want to do is craft, then craft! Craft your heart out, make money off of it, go go go. Don't expect to make the BIS items though, it just doesn't make sense at all in am MMO
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Why not?
 
If the risk as you put it (really effort, since there isn't really any risk in most games now) is on par with raiding why shouldn't crafting yield similar rewards.
 
I am not saying that is how it currently is in Wildstar, but since you made a general statement about it not making sense in MMOs if the effort of crafting were similar to the effort required for raiding why shouldn't it have a place?
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Why not?
 
If the risk as you put it (really effort, since there isn't really any risk in most games now) is on par with raiding why shouldn't crafting yield similar rewards.
 
I am not saying that is how it currently is in Wildstar, but since you made a general statement about it not making sense in MMOs if the effort of crafting were similar to the effort required for raiding why shouldn't it have a place?
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No, only the modern ADHD generation of MMO players *need* rewards for raiding.
 
Real, hardcore raiders do it for the prestige, the kudos, the achievement and to be in that elite 1%.
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You raid for the achievement, not for the gear....
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New MMO concept guys: Crafting Universe!
 
Come join the top gaming community where guilds craft their way through dungeons and arenas to become the best crafters in the world. Go and grab your friends, you don't want to miss this *cupcake*!
 
Choose your favorite profession between: Iron worker, Butcher, Wood Worker, Seamstress and Leather Worker. 
 
Dungeons will be full of crafting tables where 5 man groups need to work together to make the best gear available in each instance hopefully to show to the end boss that they are good enough at their tradeskill. 
 
Don't forget raids! Gather your guild mates and get ready for hours of button clicking! We will push you to the limits of your craft! Make sure you click in time because this *cupcake* gets crazy!
 
 
 
^Then and only then will crafting maybe potentially be close to what raiding is like. And then I might consider that raid crafting gear of worth	
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New MMO concept guys: Crafting Universe!
 
Come join the top gaming community where guilds craft their way through dungeons and arenas to become the best crafters in the world. Go and grab your friends, you don't want to miss this *cupcake*!
 
Choose your favorite profession between: Iron worker, Butcher, Wood Worker, Seamstress and Leather Worker. 
 
Dungeons will be full of crafting tables where 5 man groups need to work together to make the best gear available in each instance hopefully to show to the end boss that they are good enough at their tradeskill. 
 
Don't forget raids! Gather your guild mates and get ready for hours of button clicking! We will push you to the limits of your craft! Make sure you click in time because this *cupcake* gets crazy!
 
 
 
^Then and only then will crafting maybe potentially be close to what raiding is like. And then I might consider that raid crafting gear of worth
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Remove gear from a raid and I think you'll see a new low in the amount of raiding that happens.
 
Gear is the carrot, period.
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And that is a damning indictment on the people who raid....
 
I personally would be happy with a title to show me as that top 1%...
 
I wouldn't need the best gear in game handed to me simply for playing the parts of the game I enjoy...
 
/shrug
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Show me a game where raiding doesn't provide rewards and let me know what the e-sport scene is like. Thanks.
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And that is a damning indictment on the people who raid....
 
I personally would be happy with a title to show me as that top 1%...
 
I wouldn't need the best gear in game handed to me simply for playing the parts of the game I enjoy...
 
/shrug
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ImperialSuns view
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The rest of the communities view
 
Imperial if you cannot see, just within 13 replies you are already becoming vastly out-numbered. PEOPLE WANT GEAR FROM RAIDS!!!!
 
Titles and banners are nice but people want gear period. Get over yourself
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{| class="blockquote"
New MMO concept guys: Crafting Universe!
 
Come join the top gaming community where guilds craft their way through dungeons and arenas to become the best crafters in the world. Go and grab your friends, you don't want to miss this *cupcake*!
 
Choose your favorite profession between: Iron worker, Butcher, Wood Worker, Seamstress and Leather Worker. 
 
Dungeons will be full of crafting tables where 5 man groups need to work together to make the best gear available in each instance hopefully to show to the end boss that they are good enough at their tradeskill. 
 
Don't forget raids! Gather your guild mates and get ready for hours of button clicking! We will push you to the limits of your craft! Make sure you click in time because this *cupcake* gets crazy!
 
 
 
^Then and only then will crafting maybe potentially be close to what raiding is like. And then I might consider that raid crafting gear of worth
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I'll call you EQ with Pre pub 10 (Pre CU) SWG.....we did the hardest dungeons the game had to offer back then for the prestige, there was barely any gear rewards and certainly nothing that was superior to crafted gear....funnily enough, we still did it, week in and week out.
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You can add my view to this.  I don't mind if there are raid-specific items you can get for crafting that makes sure you can only use crafted gear if you've completed the raid, but I'm completely against nullifying the crafters by replacing them in the endgame.  Knowing (or becoming) an excellent crafter should carry in-game rewards and should serve everyone, even raiders.
 
If you don't like the RNG gods, ask for them to drop item tokens you need to fully activate the highest end crafted gear or randomized gear.  I like that crafting's still worth a damn at 50.
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Chua must ask. Have crafted PROPERLY before?
Making exact needed item, not so easy.
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again, crafting can be relevant and worthwhile. I agree that patterns should drop from raids and that gear should be comparable to the gear that can drop from the bosses. Hell, since it's an RPG make a boss that was a crafter and has a small chance to drop a really good crafting recipe. (and for all of those people that are wondering I don't RP in any game other than table top D&D 3.5). Outside of that, crafting gear before that point should aid you into getting to these bosses through dungeon drops replacing them. It should not be the pinnacle gear in the game.
 
...
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I think it should.  Hell, there's nothing more that makes crafting a complete waste of time than when its marginalized.  EVE, FFXIV:ARR, these are games where crafting is extremely useful.  In the latter, it's damn near its own game; at the very least it's a class that levels up just like everything else.  In EVE, it is entirely the point behind the game.  Everything you get in that game needs to be built, since you're not likely going to get what you want out of random drops.  So all those dreads and titans you see flying around, corporations built all of those out in their little personal holdings.  Now they're building their own space stations.  I've had my issues with the game, but I'm a big fan of how important and integrated their player economy is.  Even WoW has craftable legendaries, if only they were more of a thing anymore.
 
Wildstar is actually in-line with the rest of the MMORPGs because they, obviously, want people to level their crafting and make it useful if you've poured the time and effort into it.
 
I've raised this in my Criticism Distillery before, but it would be best if tokens dropped from the bosses (not patterns) that activated gear, boosted the stats of crafted gear to a current raid level, if crafters could modify the stats of raid-level gear, or if bosses dropped needed materials for raid-level crafting (I'm not as big a fan of this last one because it means you might be able to buy your way into endgame raiding gear).  At the very least, it would mean you'd need people in your raid guild who've put the time and effort into crafting.  At worst, you need to know who on the server knows how to make what you need.  Wildstar's crafting is the kind of crafting I wish WoW had, I'd hate to see it go to waste.
 
About the only thing I can agree on is that relying on RNG for your raid gear sucks.  But if anything, it's a lot better, in my opinion, to roll raid rewards into the crafting system rather than duplicate the efficiency of the crafting system for the endgame raiders and leave the people who've spent that time out in the cold.
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Show me a game where raiding doesn't provide rewards and let me know what the e-sport scene is like. Thanks.
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It would be cool to see crafters be able to take raid gear and tweak it, upgrade it, change it to make it better, fix the horrible RNG rune slots since they seem like they want to keep them in the game. That all makes sense and makes crafting of worth. But to craft a piece of gear when you hit level 50 that is as good as raid gear is not equal to this and should not happen. Tokens dropping to make the rest happen though would allow crafting to thrive and continue to be useful past the initial blues at 50, I do agree on that.
 
To allow crafting/raid gear to stay the way it is now is what the problem is and needs to be fixed. 
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 I hate ever sounding like a doomsdayer.. but im gonna have to side on this. If hard content doesnt dish out the rewards there is no real insentive to continue doing it. It's human nature. Sure you can do it for the achievment and prestige of accomplishing it but that take has a diminished return after its been done the first time. Running dungeons should shell out the same amount as questing in the same amount of time especially since the dungeon system in this game is much more punishing than in other mmo's.
 
Gw2 another NCsoft title had a really terrible dungeon reward system. Eventually the pve community died out and only 2 dungeons are commonly being done due to the higher gold return which isnt much in the first place. It's sad to see developers hard work go down the shitter because its not worth doing due to a failed reward system.
 
This game depends heavily on its pve content to survive and having a dungeon system that doesn't justify the effort will eventually lead to a community break down of players not wanting to waste their time doing doing the content.	
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I like the idea that crafters need tokens or whatever to craft equally good gear, for example make dungeon equivalent gear you need a token that drops in dungeons. That way even if you had bad luck on drops at least you can craft a decent item.
 
That way they could remove them elder fragments, because they are silly.
 
Because of now crafting is just way to easy even with the RNG for what you can craft. Needs no skill, not time consuming. Not even much of a money sink either since ore etc are super cheap on the AH/CX Thx to those *cupcakes* porting all over	
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I like the idea that crafters need tokens or whatever to craft equally good gear, for example make dungeon equivalent gear you need a token that drops in dungeons. That way even if you had bad luck on drops at least you can craft a decent item.
That way they could remove them elder fragments, because they are silly.
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Crafted gear should be better than gear looted during the 1 - 50 process and at least equal to gear looted in the top end raids imo.
 
You raid for the achievement, not for the gear....
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This idea does sound cool, along with crafters being able to tweak the top end gear even if it does drop from raids.
 
Or how about crafters making the item shells and specific stat/attribute/resist tokens drop0ung in the raid...crafters could then retrofit the shells?
 
I guess all I am saying is however it is obtained crafters need to be involved otherwise crafting is pointless. I certainly dont think crafting should be some sort of meaningless distraction that is only viable whilst levelling...
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To further touch on RNG and the good and bad of what is happening with this, I have been talking to a guildy and he made a good point: 
I agree with everything you said but while at work I can't post. My opinion: RNG is RNG not matter which way you look at it. It has 2 aspects to it. Those that you can deal with with little or no backlash, prevention techniques, playing to your strength is knowledge and being a smart player. Take for example First boss in STL. While RNG is pretty random it's based on several mechanics and once learned we should be able to PLAN accordingly. RNG is still apart of it, but planning for that RNG is how we do. This is a concept that many players struggle with, while others understand and do well. It makes encounters easier and makes progression faster. As a guild I think half our players understand this. It goes unsaid that every time we do that fight there is at least 1 person that will panic and drop the lightning strike in a retarded spot or get hit by it because they get frazzled. Plan for RNG.
 
What I'm really trying to say is RNG makes this game great. You say in post that your opinion of it is showing it as poor planning/execution when I feel that if they made the RNG more turn style and less random, we would be playing wow. Boss Mods in wow made the game fail. Those boss mods became required by players to learn RNG faster and plan accordingly. We are forced to do that in this game without some crappy mod.
 
I like the difficulty and the RNG where it is to an extent. Getting 3 tanks and a bunker buster on siege is just a bit fail. RNG on STL/KV/SC/SSM are right where they need to be. People just need to get their *cupcake* together :D
 
 
This is the kind of RNG I can get behind.	
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Just look what WoW does. Crafters can craft a couple of really high level pieces (based on daily crafting - 3 weeks and 4 weeks respectively), but all other really high level pieces comes in Raids and Heroic Raids. It could be the same in WS. Have crafters able to craft just a couple of really high end pieces.
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they've always treated crafting as a sideline rather than an endeavor.
 
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Why would crafting in this game be an endeavor, it's simply a time-gated cash sink.
There's no difficulty to it at all. You go between the CX and the crafting table.
 
 
Crafting gives you the opportunity to reroll items 10000% easier than re-rolling drops by re-clearing dungeons or raids.
This is incredibly broken because it leads to raid/dungeon drops being inferior to crafts because of RNG runeslots.
Also, AP runes are far too powerful. A piece that can hold 4-5 AP runes is worth two peices of the same item which cannot hold as many AP runes.
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Time vs. Money. It's the age old proposition. You will spend nowhere near the amount of money a crafter spends to get a great item. But you will spend more time. As it should be.
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Making Crafting viable is good and all but Adventure and dungeon drops are a bit pathetic. 
I don't mind rng and needing to run a dungeon a bunch of times to get something I need, but my experience so far is:
 
A new group of 5 in regular blue gear mix from adventure and a few broker. Runs A dungeon, and after 3 hours to finish, No one needed a single item that dropped the entire run. It's not that we were unlucky and the wrong class items drop, but that there was nothing that was an upgrade for anyone. And it was groups first dungeon. Someone has to at least get something out of it right? You can't possibility have all these items in a harder and more time consuming dungeon being lower than adventures........just doesn't add up. 	
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Why would crafting in this game be an endeavor, it's simply a time-gated cash sink.
There's no difficulty to it at all. You go between the CX and the crafting table.
 
 
Crafting gives you the opportunity to reroll items 10000% easier than re-rolling drops by re-clearing dungeons or raids.
This is incredibly broken because it leads to raid/dungeon drops being inferior to crafts because of RNG runeslots.
Also, AP runes are far too powerful. A piece that can hold 4-5 AP runes is worth two peices of the same item which cannot hold as many AP runes.
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Just look what WoW does. Crafters can craft a couple of really high level pieces (based on daily crafting - 3 weeks and 4 weeks respectively), but all other really high level pieces comes in Raids and Heroic Raids. It could be the same in WS. Have crafters able to craft just a couple of really high end pieces.
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What makes you think this is broken?  Whatever you think of crafting, it takes a considerable investment of money and time to get to that point, and for that investment crafters should be both part of the greater Wildstar experience and rewarded for it.
 
 
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Because it destroys the incentive structure for running content that is actually, you know, difficult.
 
Lets all sit in Thayd in our nicely crafted gear because we don't need to go out and TRY to get better gear.
Even raid drops are subpar to crafted and that takes 20ppl attuned in the right classes who know how to play and are willing to put HOURS aside to accomplish it.
 
 
It's not even comparable how much easier to farm a bit of plat or buy it with CREDD and craft 20 of the same thing.
 
If you don't understand why the game is losing end-game "hardcore" players then I'm sorry. I can't explain this any further.
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 Just a nutty idea here.. but you could have a system like this.
 
Item drops has x amount of potential rune slots (based off RNG) Special tokens drop randomly where ever.. Tokens have an attunement attached to them.. Crafter's use these tokens with said matereals to creat a specific rune slot on item. Crafters make money off of making these slots for other players. Crafting becomes an actual profession that has a community reward to it. Player gets their rune slot..crafter makes their gold.. carbine still can sleep at night since there's an rng element to it.
 
Just a thought that passed through my thick skull lol	
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Dear Carbine,
I would first like to state that I thoroughly enjoy WildStar, the concept of the game you have made and I understand the amount of work that goes into creating a game (I myself am a programmer). With that I would like to state a few points that I think you can change to make this game even more successful that will not lose any of the hardcore that you are adamant about (and so are most of the players that came to this game.)
 
1.RNG/RNJesus/whatever you want to call it.
When most people thing of RNG they think of:
a.       mechanics not always hitting in the same spot
b.      loot tables dropping different loot from bosses
c.       rolling for loot and the literal RNG that chooses who wins
d.      the small differences in crit and hit numbers when attacking
e.      weapon or gear procs based on % to happen
What we don’t think about and what seems to be really upsetting most of your community:
a.       Blue gear/rune slots/crafted gear/purples/etc.
b.      dungeon/adventure drops at the end of the instance being so crazy
c.       crafted blues being BIS even over some raid gear that drops
 
To drive this point home, people want to feel accomplished. People want to do dungeons and adventures for a reason, not for the best RNG that can happen. No one wants 15 versions of the same item just to get the best RNG slots/stats.
Make rune slots static, set each piece to have X rune slots and each rune slot to be the same every time the item drops, no one wants RNG on this NO ONE. Create a tier of gear starting with crafted blues ->adventure blues/purples -> dungeon blues/purples -> raid gear. Make it actually worthwhile to do these runs and not just for attunement/saying you did it (which is happening whether you want to admit it or not).
 
2.Risk vs reward
 
Players don’t feel the amount of time/work that it takes to do an instance is equal to what you get out.
               
a.       Loot drops are RNG
b.      Adventures are fairly easy but take to long for the RNG
c.       Dungeons are only looked at for attunement and not for a fun factor
 
With the amount of RNG that has been implemented and the bad tiering of items you have created one set of instances that people farm, even though you have made the crafted gear better in most instances, on top of the RNG aspect of gear that can drop and the stats on that gear. With this you have created dungeons that aren’t fun, and are looked at as just a stepping stone for attunement. People do not repeat them unless they are helping others get attuned. For the people that don't want to raid/don’t have time, this should be a staple to them. Log in, spend 25-30 minutes in an instance, make a little money, maybe get a gear piece and feel accomplished. Instead they log in, maybe do dailies, maybe do some housing, maybe craft some gear, etc. The semi-casual/semi-hardcore group (which makes up the majority of most MMOs) don’t have any real worthwhile content because of this and it’s causing you to lose numbers.
 
3.Bug fixes/Balance vs New content
You have created an image for yourselves that says we would rather drop new content than fix the current issues we have. With this new content comes new bugs and further creates more issues for your player base. I know that you have a lot of content that you already had created, but it would better suit you to fix your current issues before creating new ones for yourself. If WoW has shown us anything, players will wait for good content, especially if it is bug free (or close to it since nothing will ever be bug free). So I ask you please, stop dropping new content on our heads and start fixing what you already have. There are things that have been broken since closed beta that is still not fixed. You are two months in, those issues should be resolved by now…
 
 
 
So in conclusion:
RNG is good, just in the right way. Stop making it overly complicated. This does not come across as hardcore, this comes across as poor planning and bad execution.
 
Make it worthwhile for players to do content. Make the items static not dynamic. And for the love of god, please stop the RNG rune slots and tier your items better. NO ONE wants to go into a raid in crafted blues. That concept was never good. Crafted items should be for leveling and for entering the entry level content at max level.
 
Fix your bugs instead of creating needless new ones. This cannot be driven home more. I have read more posts about upset players dealing with bugs than anything else. If you are truly listening then listen to this part if nothing else. FIX THE BUGS FIRST, stop giving us new content to try and keep your player base.
 
I truly do love this game, and I would really like to continue playing, but with the declining player base and the reward not being worth the time put in, my love for the game is slowly dwindling.
 
 
TL; DR FIX THE BUGS CARBINE!!!!
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Crafting is a minigame, it should be something that gives you an edge while leveling, and gives you a jumping off point at cap into raiding. Nothing beats the joy of that amazeballs sword you've been wanting finally drop for you. Do what you enjoy, get stuff that helps you do better along the way.
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And nothing deflates that sense of joy like realizing that the amazeballs sword has the wrong rune slots, causing it to be worse than the crafted/pvp sword you already have. 
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It does seem kind of weird that they gave us really excellent control over the stats, to their credit, but gave us really terrible control over rune slots, to their detriment.  It's the biggest weakness of the crafting system.  I'm not against maybe getting bonus slots and having to go into your crafting again to change the slot type or add one with new mats, but playing slot roulette is a little weird considering how much control we have over everything else.
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Crafting has the most control over runeslots. You just re-craft it.
 
Try getting the same item more than once while competing versus multiple people in a 20man raid or a 5 man group.
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Those are both good points but I don't think Vic is trying to say that crafting blues should be better than raid gear any more. I am pretty sure that the conversation has now evolved to crafting relevance in raiding and giving crafters more control over items that do drop. If you look back a little bit there have been posts made about changing loot tables to allow crafting items to drop off bosses and out of adventures and dungeons to allow crafters to change stats, add and change rune slots and make gear better, along with raid specific recipes that can drop to allow crafters more to do at 50. 
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Particularly that, so it seems weird to me that you can tailor the stats, but you have to literally recraft the gear to get new rune slots.  Seems strange in the concept of crafting.
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