107953-the-nexus-report-nerfing-the-attunement-page-4

Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8
== Content ==
			
{| class="blockquote"
The main argument was that people didn't have the time to complete this and they shouldn't be forced to. It doesn't make them less of a player
----
			
Good step to change it to bronze. Should be rather healthy for the game itself.
 
{| class="blockquote"
Isn't bronze a bit too easy? You can earn it by bashing your head aganst the bosses till you clear it. It isn't even possible to fail most bronzes if you eventualy kill the last boss.
 
I would expect atleast a somewhat smooth run is needed to prove you mastered the dungeons. Any plans to add a death limit like 5 or 10 so you can have one or two wipes to clear it. Unlimited times and attemps at no risk of failue is a bit too much nerfing for attunement.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
The main argument was that people didn't have the time to complete this and they shouldn't be forced to. It doesn't make them less of a player
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If that's the main argument then it's weak as all hell. How do you not have time for silver dungeon runs if you intend to raid? This is absurd. Have you ever been part of a raiding guild? I raided 9 hours a week in another game and that was considered a LIGHT raiding schedule. More serious guilds would raid for 12 hours or more. If you don't have time to do silver dungeon runs then you definitely don't have time to raid. Raiding takes MORE time and effort than silver dungeon runs and you want to say that attunement should be made *cupcake* easy so that people who can't even scrounge up a 5 man group should get to raid?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's the point that because populations have dwindled, people are finding it takes weeks or possibly longer if this continued. For me, raiding has been log in, knock off 2-3 hours of raiding a couple nights a week and done. Not spend weeks trying to even unlock the shit in the first place. It's not that people can't accomplish this, it's just annoying repetitive shit dealing with this. I used to do all the HMs and in other MMOs, I know the requirements needed to complete them. But no one was blocked from doing so to begin with. Zone in with friends and *cupcake*in' raid. Why are you so against this?
----
			
You are already insulted people to tell them that they're not raid ready because they cant get silver dungeon, they cant beat the timer. People can learn the fight but sometimes, human make mistakes. One or two wipes then disband is not a good idea. One who get lag spiked, screw the party in one wipe etc. It caused Frustration than Fun.
 
Doesnt mean those who can complete dungeon in bronze is not raid ready. They already have to know the mechanic, they have to dodge, they have to interupt, they have to dps well to be able to kill all the bosses too! They're raid ready or at least to say they're already able to be filler of the raid. To stop everyone from seeing the raid content because you're not dedicated enough to beat the timer is just pure wrong.
 
Change to bronze dungeon, net you only positive but no negative effect. The error tolerance per run can be infiite, people now can just PUG and go headbang help each other out til they kill all the bosses and that's what attument should be ment. Not like 2 wipes, then disband, requeue, wait for friend to carry etc. You dont need "perfect run" to be raid ready, you just need to "kill the boss" and "know the mechanic".
 
Seriously, stop your epeen, and use some logic. It's much healthier for casual population to see some light eventhough it might be too late for some people that already quit.	
----
			
First and foremost, Bronze is considerably easier and requires quite a bit less skill. Any person with enough time and attempts can pull off a single good lap around a track, but only a skilled driver can pull off 500 great laps, consecutively, on race day. There is no single encounter in the dungeons that is difficult on it's own merits and it is little more than being able to communicate effectively and working together smoothly that allows a group to be to clear content in the time provided. The people that this change benefits are those that were unwilling to work within a team.
 
Also, I disagree with this change improving the health of the community, this fix is attempting to solve the problem that people already raiding are leaving in droves due to a lack of other content in the game. Instead of improving the lateral content, Carbine is instead making it easier to get into raids as an attempt to coax a few more months of subscriptions out of the remaining players. If successful, you can readily expect that they'll start reducing the difficulty of the raid content to convince even more people to subscribe again. It's considerably cheaper for Carbine to just adjust the existing content to retain people than to provide additional content; especially when their prior attempts at bringing in new content was such an utter failure.,	
----
			
silver dungeon attunment was fine, only problem is for players on a low pop server(server merger please), and the 300 items needed for 40 man.
the silver dungeons was needed, as you almost had to do em perfect for silver, and the same goes for 20man raid, you cant slack around in there, you step on the wrong thing or dc and you can wipe all.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
silver dungeon attunment was fine, only problem is for players on a low pop server(server merger please), and the 300 items needed for 40 man.
the silver dungeons was needed, as you almost had to do em perfect for silver, and the same goes for 20man raid, you cant slack around in there, you step on the wrong thing or dc and you can wipe all.
----
			
I've never understood the argument that timers mean nothing. You raid for a set number of hours every week - that is your timer in raids. Can't clear the whole raid before the end of the week? It resets. Now you have to start over and kill trash and bosses again, just like restarting the dungeon. Are you going to complain when you don't raid enough to clear GA every week because you have to start over? Eventually when you're done learning the bosses, you will be able to clear it within the week (read: timer), just like silver dungeons. Where is the disconnect?
 
With that said, I'd like to see videos of people not able to get silver and see the real reason they can't achieve silver. The timers are lenient enough to have a few wipes and 5min breaks.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
With that said, I'd like to see videos of people not able to get silver and see the real reason they can't achieve silver. The timers are lenient enough to have a few wipes and 5min breaks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
First and foremost, Bronze is considerably easier and requires quite a bit less skill. Any person with enough time and attempts can pull off a single good lap around a track, but only a skilled driver can pull off 500 great laps, consecutively, on race day. There is no single encounter in the dungeons that is difficult on it's own merits and it is little more than being able to communicate effectively and working together smoothly that allows a group to be to clear content in the time provided. The people that this change benefits are those that were unwilling to work within a team.
 
Also, I disagree with this change improving the health of the community, this fix is attempting to solve the problem that people already raiding are leaving in droves due to a lack of other content in the game. Instead of improving the lateral content, Carbine is instead making it easier to get into raids as an attempt to coax a few more months of subscriptions out of the remaining players. If successful, you can readily expect that they'll start reducing the difficulty of the raid content to convince even more people to subscribe again. It's considerably cheaper for Carbine to just adjust the existing content to retain people than to provide additional content; especially when their prior attempts at bringing in new content was such an utter failure.,
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You are already insulted people to tell them that they're not raid ready because they cant get silver dungeon, they cant beat the timer. People can learn the fight but sometimes, human make mistakes. One or two wipes then disband is not a good idea. One who get lag spiked, screw the party in one wipe etc. It caused Frustration than Fun.
 
Doesnt mean those who can complete dungeon in bronze is not raid ready. They already have to know the mechanic, they have to dodge, they have to interupt, they have to dps well to be able to kill all the bosses too! They're raid ready or at least to say they're already able to be filler of the raid. To stop everyone from seeing the raid content because you're not dedicated enough to beat the timer is just pure wrong.
 
Change to bronze dungeon, net you only positive but no negative effect. The error tolerance per run can be infiite, people now can just PUG and go headbang help each other out til they kill all the bosses and that's what attument should be ment. Not like 2 wipes, then disband, requeue, wait for friend to carry etc. You dont need "perfect run" to be raid ready, you just need to "kill the boss" and "know the mechanic".
 
Seriously, stop your epeen, and use some logic. It's much healthier for casual population to see some light eventhough it might be too late for some people that already quit.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You are already insulted people to tell them that they're not raid ready because they cant get silver dungeon, they cant beat the timer. People can learn the fight but sometimes, human make mistakes. One or two wipes then disband is not a good idea. One who get lag spiked, screw the party in one wipe etc. It caused Frustration than Fun.
 
Doesnt mean those who can complete dungeon in bronze is not raid ready. They already have to know the mechanic, they have to dodge, they have to interupt, they have to dps well to be able to kill all the bosses too! They're raid ready or at least to say they're already able to be filler of the raid. To stop everyone from seeing the raid content because you're not dedicated enough to beat the timer is just pure wrong.
 
Change to bronze dungeon, net you only positive but no negative effect. The error tolerance per run can be infiite, people now can just PUG and go headbang help each other out til they kill all the bosses and that's what attument should be ment. Not like 2 wipes, then disband, requeue, wait for friend to carry etc. You dont need "perfect run" to be raid ready, you just need to "kill the boss" and "know the mechanic".
 
Seriously, stop your epeen, and use some logic. It's much healthier for casual population to see some light eventhough it might be too late for some people that already quit.
----
			I think it's probably best they deal with these things early on and lose a few rather than years later, like SWG, and lose everyone. :unsure:	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
While I can appreciate the silver requirement; bronze is more in line with what you would actually expect from a raid. You are not on a timer in a raid and learning the fights as you get in there is an essential part of the experience which is necessarily absent from doing silver/gold runs in dungeons.
 
In short, bronze runs are more like raids than silver runs.
----
			
just posting to express my support of this decision and i just hope it is not too late.
we all know its INFINITELY harder to get subs back than it is to keep them.
 
like many that oposed this change i too believe silver timers have absolutely nothing to do with raiding.
take something like kuralak for example. a fight that requires for everybody to follow a strat and not mess up, to have good dps, have comms, react on the fly and that has an enrage etc. guess what? all vet bosses have these things as well. nowhere does kuralak have arbitrary timed "click this optional stupid crap that has nothng to do with the boss or fail" objectives.
 
scouting raiding talent is up to raiding leaders, you can get caried or buy atunement just like that so it was never a proper filter to begin with.
 
finaly i hope you really loosen up the world boss part as well. that again tests absolutely nothing for raiding.
thank you and keep up the good job i hope this game comes back in a big way.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think it's probably best they deal with these things early on and lose a few rather than years later, like SWG, and lose everyone. :unsure:
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I fear that Carbine is catering to the people that have already left and stepping over those of us that are still here. Sub based games aren't known for repeat customers, once a player leaves, it tends to be for good.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
90% of the I quit threads were players who like the game, but didn't enjoy the bugs and time sink. This isn't about you, this is business.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Too bad, because my money is their business.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
finaly i hope you really loosen up the world boss part as well. that again tests absolutely nothing for raiding.
thank you and keep up the good job i hope this game comes back in a big way.
----
			
Just going to repost this from a different thread of mine.
 
The funny thing is the number of threads getting locked ? Why, because this little war went largely unnoticed by the playerbase, and now the people who didn't speak up about it are coming out to play. Once again the vocal minority threw their toys out of the pram, and got what they wanted, and now the larger portion of the playerbase is irritated with the repercussions.
 
I find it amusing that the leader of the opposition or so to speak, is another guild leader. Sorry but this change actually makes your life harder in the long run as it does mine, we can no longer let people waste the time of 4 people in the 5 mans. Now they'll pug it, and with some determination tell us that they are ready to raid, only to hold back those that have done it. I'm not looking forwards to this, as soon as the change goes live there are going to be some people that were stuck on the dungeon stage before in the guild that I'm just going to have to say no to because frankly they were awful and had to get a hard carry through the few dungeons they have done. 
 
Filtering through applicants is always a pain, but yeah, now working out if someone is decent or not is going to be a lot harder than it was before.
 
Hate telling people they suck, but it's going to have to happen as the bar has been lowered so low that they believe they are good enough, and almost to the extent that the attunement serves no purpose whatsoever. If nothing in there is going to be challenging then why have it ? Now nobody can argue that it is anything other than a timestop.
 
I am by no means hardcore in terms of the time I invest to this game, heck even the level of play that the guild I run is on, we only had our first raid just yesterday, but what I can say is holy shit. The attunement lead to this overwhelming... anticipation and excitement within the guild, everyone was buzzing and online as early as they could be to not miss out, and then the large majority wanted to stay past our raid time just to kill TRASH MOBS. The attunement being challenging  was great, not only did months of effort, teamwork and bonding come to a close, but we knew that there were no weak links in that raid, everyone had completed the same content and knew what was up against them, sure some may not have done as much dps as others, but mechanically they were sound. 
 
Anticipation.... yeah, that's what it was, now that you can just enter the raid on a whim it's not going to be there, even setting foot in GA for the first time as a guild felt special. With a now puggable attunement, I don't know, it's just going to feel underwhelming...
 
The other thing is that many came to this game because it was advertised as hardcore, there are people on the dungeon stage I know now that are struggling whom I have not had the time to help. They don't want the attunement handed to them and liked the challenge that they had been given as any step made towards raiding however so small, felt like they had actually accomplished something. The only thing those who step in and get attuned after the next patch will feel as far as accomplishment goes, is that they won some argument on a forum. Well done, you fought the corporate machine to overcome the games challenges, rather than simply improving your own play to best the game.	
----
			
Fact of the matter is OP you're just a victim of what Blizzard started.
 
catering to those who want what you worked so hard for.... it's a plague.
 
The game hasn't even been out long enough to be raiding end game content.
 
They in fact are no doubt not ready for anyone to raid endgame content.
 
By opening the doors it will satisfy the whining masses and force the developers to shovel out more incomplete bugged and bad content/environment/encounters as fast as possible.
 
Seeing as how they weren't even ready for release, I'm 100% sure of this.
 
 
Everquest didn't start nerfing content for years ...
 
 
You are a part of the few that still want to be first and spend the time, and there are many who can't spend the time and complain about what you can get and they can't as easily as they portray your hours spent.
 
Lets face it, WILDSTAR has ZERO content aside from raiding.
 
I'm so sick and tired and have been sick and tired of the Instances with lockouts guaranteeing bosses at X location that drop garbage items with Random garbage needless slots, I mean hey what else have they
cornered themselves into by guaranteeing the masses a closed safe instance where no one will come in and bother them killing a boss? Random Loot Random Stats Random Runes, and some games the bosses may not even drop a piece of loot.
 
They have to have a way to keep you coming back and this is the downfall of a closed dungeon/instance with a lockout timer, and they feed you some sort of currency system incase in all those times of enduring no items dropped for you, you can at least minimally be rewarded to go to a vendor and purchase some item to compensate you for your time.
 
I'm sorry is this a job?
 
Wait, I pay YOU to PLAY not PAY to have to PLAY to be PAID...
 
It's so sad to see MMOs not evolving or at least not changing- telegraphs are gonna keep me around this game about as much as 6 different colors of light sabers kept me around SWTOR.
 
There is nothing here, how many pieces of loot worth absolutely nothing to me can I obtain just to put it on my costume slot X?
 
Pvp servers? WHY you have no pvp content outside of a single arena- in all development they shoveled out ONE arena..and 2 battle grounds for me to sit in thayd and que for, since 4 days after release I've been sitting in the major city Queing for 1 arena and 2 BGs.
 
Was anyone in there development team thinking long term?
 
I look like ever other warrior, I use exactly the same items as every other warrior, everyone else of every class looks and IS the exact same, runes and all if not because of random runeslots.
 
 
This is all because MMOs are now equal opportunity environments catering to the amount of $$$ oops I mean people that complain.
 
I said I would stop July 3rd, and I did cancel my subscrip and figured why not I have 12 plat so I bought cred, I will be glad when it runs out.
 
I'm tired of lingering and waiting for change, for a good game with exciting content and fun things that happen, not just something that I can say Wow we sure have come a long way this game looks way cooler
than the last...obviously as the saying goes; looks aren't everything.
 
What a waste of a summer this game has been.
 
Bugs, exploits, hackers, botters, whiners, absurd overpowered unbalanced classes that are left as if hey it's all good!
Double heal spamming medics, 24k+bursting stalkers, 40k+ bursting spellslingers, Crit spamming engineers all left to play daily as the bots that infest Battlegrounds that are so well programmed theyre stealing masks and no one around to do a damn thing.
 
These things should be emergency patched and fixed IMMEDIATELY.
 
In the meantime Chuas will not all of a sudden seem like they've gained weight! REJOICE!
 
Dead Servers! But hey! COME BACK!!!!! We're Nerfing attunement! oops there's no one for you to play with? but but  attunement was nerfed >:I What more do you want?
 
Disgruntled Gamer
Dissapointed Gamer
Tired Gamer
Bored Gamer
 
The more I rant about games that have been repeating WoW/Blizzards mistakes for the last 10 years
 
and the more I see people messaging agreeing with my posts, the more I think MMOs are in big trouble.
 
There is one last game I have hopes for, EQNext, but I'm afraid they will follow systematically with a new feature or a few new features more than just telegraphs but make the same mistakes that have been plaguing MMOs for quite some time now.
 
And I'm afraid I'll be too tired to care and not be around.
 
I remember when Oracle Robe mattered, and I could meet someone in the East Common Tunnel at second torch that had saved one cause he knew it would benefit someone. East Commons was a zone and the tunnel branched it and Oasis zone lines, all the trading and sales were done here, there was no auction house flooded with 30 Berserker Aegis' etc
 
I remember when +24 HP regen per tic from Fungi Tunic mattered to a monk or rogue soloing in Solusek
 
I Remember when people helped eachother obtain pieces of their epic when a mob spawned OPEN WORLD
 
I remember crossing vast plains 40 by foot and passing multiple groups of people playing and having fun seeing a rare along the way that dropped an item that everyone in my high lvl group would want!
Pegasus Cloak! Levitation Effect! Duration INFINATE or Until Cancelled Instant Cast NO COOLDOWN!
 
I remember when 0 Stats 42% Haste FBSS mattered and you kept it until it didn't and were able to pass it to an alt or a friend or guildy not bound on pickup or equipping it and surely not restricted by level.
 
I remember when mobs weren't tethered
 
I remember when there were camp checks in zones as a courtesy and lists to get into camps for nameds because you wouldn't just say screw it and go level because you leveled so fast that item ment nothing anyways.
 
I remember 72 man raids with a waiting list of new guild members trying to get in an open slot to the raid group. And this was common for MULTIPLE GUILDS pushing content.
 
I remember playing with name tags off because I could tell who was who just by looking at their armor - Rarely did we look the same.
 
I remember corpse runs, yes...corpse runs lol ffs man running naked back to your body deep in the pits of wherever your group just wiped.... LOL NEW STRAT! NAKED STRAT!
 
I could go on and on
 
But the one thing I do not ever in my 7 years of playing Everquest remember doing was sitting around in a major city with my thumb up my ass waiting for a que so bored of leaving the city with absolute fear of
running around with nothing to do. Nowhere to go, no trouble or danger to get into.
 
And paying a monthly fee to do it, how stupid have we become to think that this is fun anymore?
 
Wake up! theyre giving us less and less, charging us more to get in and the same to stay.
And the less and less is not even complete or working properly.
 
 
Everything is so controlled now, limited play limited experience, limited items.. but how much we pay has increased and our subs have stayed the same.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think it would be better if you could make it so that you have to be there for the kill of every dungeon boss. I just worry that someone will join a dungeon at the last boss and not learn much from the boss mechanics and get bronze.
----
			Another thing, community, guilds mattered because of the attunement, and the LFG system was meh or not worth using, that was a good thing, was nice to have to fill empty slots of a mostly full group, but not to pug entirely. Now without the silver requirement people are just going to smash their heads around inside the LFG tool until battered and bruised they come out attuned. Rather than finding a semi consistent group within their guild. Its sad to say, but it is the first step on the ladder to World of Quecraft.	
----
			don't touch this please!	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Another thing, community, guilds mattered because of the attunement, and the LFG system was meh or not worth using, that was a good thing, was nice to have to fill empty slots of a mostly full group, but not to pug entirely. Now without the silver requirement people are just going to smash their heads around inside the LFG tool until battered and bruised they come out attuned. Rather than finding a semi consistent group within their guild. Its sad to say, but it is the first step on the ladder to World of Quecraft.
----
			
This post is based on the idea that the attunement is being nerfed because 'people were whining'.
 
Yes, people were whining, but that's not why the attunement is getting nerfed.
 
I think it's fairly obvious that the attunement was ALWAYS planned to be nerfed.  Did you really think it wouldn't be?
 
Do you really think that it won't get easier, or disappear altogether, in the not too distant future?  If so, how delusional are you?
 
Look at WoW's BC expansion.  It had a large grind/attunement process to get into the Black Temple.  Over time, steps in the overall process became easier.  Then later on, WOOSH, attunement gone and everybody can get in!
 
The same thing will happen to Wildstar.  They made it initially difficult on purpose to slow down the amount of people that were doing end-game content.  If everybody does it, then they get bored and don't have anything to 'work towards' which means -- they quit the game.  Once Wildstar announces the next expansion, soon after they will drop the attunement process because at that point it will no longer matter.
 
MMO end-game planning 101 folks	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
don't touch this please!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This post is based on the idea that the attunement is being nerfed because 'people were whining'.
 
Yes, people were whining, but that's not why the attunement is getting nerfed.
 
I think it's fairly obvious that the attunement was ALWAYS planned to be nerfed.  Did you really think it wouldn't be?
 
Do you really think that it won't get easier, or disappear altogether, in the not too distant future?  If so, how delusional are you?
 
Look at WoW's BC expansion.  It had a large grind/attunement process to get into the Black Temple.  Over time, steps in the overall process became easier.  Then later on, WOOSH, attunement gone and everybody can get in!
 
The same thing will happen to Wildstar.  They made it initially difficult on purpose to slow down the amount of people that were doing end-game content.  If everybody does it, then they get bored and don't have anything to 'work towards' which means -- they quit the game.  Once Wildstar announces the next expansion, soon after they will drop the attunement process because at that point it will no longer matter.
 
MMO end-game planning 101 folks
----
			
Any guild leader who jumps back at the thought of having to screen applicants in order to see if they fit in with the rest of the group should probably rethink if their position as Leader.
Especially since the former method of "silver medal" runs aren't fool proof either. There are enough guilds in other games who if you apply run a test dungeons/encounter with you in order to see if you perform.
You can't tell me that everyone who managed the attunement process by now is grade A material for raiding. Managing a guild is work especially if you're progress orientated.
 
Actually look at it this way. The process of accepting new members got more hardcore. ;)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
 
With that said, I'd like to see videos of people not able to get silver and see the real reason they can't achieve silver. The timers are lenient enough to have a few wipes and 5min breaks.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Any guild leader who jumps back at the thought of having to screen applicants in order to see if they fit in with the rest of the group should probably rethink if their position as Leader.
Especially since the former method of "silver medal" runs aren't fool proof either. There are enough guilds in other games who if you apply run a test dungeons/encounter with you in order to see if you perform.
You can't tell me that everyone who managed the attunement process by now is grade A material for raiding. Managing a guild is work especially if you're progress orientated.
 
Actually look at it this way. The process of accepting new members got more hardcore. ;)
----
			
First time posting just for the laughs. I cannot believe this thread hasn't been buried in its own bile at this point! I remember when I first came to WoW and had a pinch of knowledge about MMORPGs. Jeez, what a rough game WoW started as and how good it felt to learn and win in a completely broken system. 
 
It boggles my mind to think that some people here would hate to see other people being allowed in their play-pen. It is almost poetic, really, as if I am watching people vote on the next president. Each paragraph I read is just compounding exaggerations on top of misinformation and slander. Really impressive, actually, to think that this is and always has been humanity. 
 
Best yet, some people here believe that they will be forced to play with strangers just because they are now able to progress in attunement. As if the attunement teaches you anything other than how to beat a single dungeon at the time or exploit it as others have. I finished my attunement in PuGs, though I suppose I was lucky enough to play when servers were full. It was only hard due to the fact that you had to learn how to win at that very moment. It would be like if you were a professional baseball player, but the only time you are allowed to practice your swing is during the major leagues. It just made no sense to me and I cannot begin to tell you how annoying people were for leaving constantly.
 
I hope in a few months that the Gold-or-Bust mentality is a joke/insult, only spoken of to poke fun at whiners. I pray that the servers see a gathering of new players so that 9/10 servers are not ghost towns. Finally, I hope that the Devs continue to concern themselves with total player welfare, from hard facts and statistics, and QoL improvements.
 
I, for one, cannot wait to see exactly what happens in the coming months. I am here until the content halts and the cobwebs coat the server. After all, Nexus is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed.	
----
			
We should honestly thank Carbine for the wonderful opportunity they are presenting us.
All of the arguments for or against the change will get to be tested in live.
 
Carbine's promises are in, all the cupcakes who want to raid will get the chance and those that railed against the 'hardcore' play style that prevented them from the pedestrian achievement of silver medals will now have the opportunity to understand how perfectly mistaken they are.
 
This is a gift. No longer are children, disconnects, medical conditions, angry spouses, disgorging animals, RNGesus, snack breaks, or any other calamity preventing a person from remaining focused and in their chair for 30 minutes, preventing players from raiding.
 
No longer are the oppressive silver medals and vile timers keeping them from content.
 
It all falls directly onto their ability to perform, and the only thing keeping them from succeeding is themselves.
 
In the future, the content is no longer arbitrarily too difficult, players are just bad at the game.
 
So when the tears start to fall when players exclaim how unfair the trash packs are or how broken, bugged and/or unkillable bosses are, the only plausible answer is that the player themselves are at fault and they need to get better at the game.
 
In the mean time, they can do challenges at their skill level, like earning silver medals in dungeons.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I think the silvers will be in a better place, now. They were balanced around being a challenge for people to attempt when running the veteran dungeons--after learning them. However, when added to the attunement they became a 'wall' instead of an 'achievement.'
 
Additionally, I believe that Genetic Archives has turned out very positively and this change allows more players to see some of what (in my rather biased opinion) is some of the strongest content Wildstar has to offer--all without the need to reduce its difficulty.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
First, I am not interested in raiding.  I don't have time for the time sink that raiding is in this game.  I have been a progressive raider in my past for many years, but life has changed for me, and I am not longer in that mind set.  That said, I did expect to enjoy some of the difficult content such as dungeons and adventures.  Let me say that the community is not as helpful as it has been primarly due to the requiements of attunement.  "gold or gtfo", "lf dps, don't suck".
 
We have a sinking population in this game.  I do not see a lot of helpful suggestions, or helpful hands.  I do see a lot of frustration.  Venting creates a lot of steam in the air, makes things murky.
 
I'm more concerned about why are people leaving.  What makes people go "psh, not worth the monthly anymore"?
 
Hard to find a guild that isn't raiding, hard to find a community of people wanting to help each other out, hard to see activity in zones other than daily ones.  In the light of all this, is raid attunement reduction of silver to bronze really that important? 
 
Healthy server population = healthy game
People able to have fun accomplishing simple goals = happy gamers resubbing.
 
I doubt the simple change of silver to bronze is that detrimental to raiding. 
Carbine may or may not change raid difficulties in the future, if they do so, it's based on the feedback of majority of players.  That's how business is run.  If they choose to run a business based off a population of a certain size, then they will do so.  If they need more $$, then they will make changes to do that.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I don't care if the game dies because of shrinking population, toxicity and people tired of helping others. I just want the game to be hardcore.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It's not an old idea no, and equally it wasn't flawless, but it served its purpose and worked for the majority. As I mentioned, now it has to waste 19 -24 other peoples time to work out if someone is good or not, not 4, this is not something I am looking for
----
			
Bottom line for me is that the change will be a benefit. People who aren't good enough to raid will still get weeded out and benched, people who are will stay on the team - there'll just be a wider pool to pick from, including a good number who are good enough to raid but haven't got that last silver medal for one reason or another. The only difference is that the trial will be in a raid environment rather than a dungeon, in raid time we'll only have because of the faster attunement. There'll be plenty of attuned guild members around to swap in for people that just aren't working out. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that just because attunement is more accessible their raids are suddenly going to be flooded with incompetents and they'll never make any progression again because of the wealth of bad players dragging them down - that's not the bad players throwing a spanner in the works, it's whoever is doing a *cupcake*-poor job of managing your raid team. Just focus on what you're doing and leave everyone else to their own game. Doughnuts don't taste worse if everyone else can get them too.
 
The big difference for me though is actually being able to PUG dungeons when I feel like it. If ?I'm benched for the night and there aren't many other guildies around, I can heal a dungeon run to keep myself entertained without some entitled little **** tank ditching because we failed a silver requirement and we have to disband because every new member immediately drops out when s/he sees it's not a silver run. Not just me, many more people will be able to find a dungeon group with good hopes of actually finishing the dungeon - how many PUG groups could say that before? LFG was a terrible, terrible way to get a silver medal, and by focusing only on that and abandoning the run if it didn't go off without a hitch, those players with their terrible attitudes completely poisoned the PUG system. Nobody could learn dungeons outside of a guild group - there's only so much a youtube tutorial can teach you. The vast, vast majority of runs ended early, and here's the dirty little secret: it's your fault.
 
You know exactly who I mean. The ones who flocked to the 'hardcore' banner and denigrated anyone for whom the play-style didn't fit. The people who engendered a gold-or-bust mentality in vet adventures under the guaranteed loot system, which still persists into the new loot system today - people would rather drop a Malgrave Trail run 10 minutes or less before the end, taking the 15min deserter debuff instead, than finish the damn run in less time for silver rather than gold rewards. All for an extra roll on a 10% epic chance table. The same people made LFG completely unusable for players who didn't already know the instance, because as soon as a silver wasn't in sight the run was over. I know players who have been PUGging dungeons since the first few weeks and have never seen past the first boss or two in any instance - not because they're bad players, they're really not, but because there were often bad players in the group, and once a silver was out of sight, people would rather drop it than actually let people see the rest of the dungeon. Players couldn't learn the boss fights on-site because they saw them maybe once or twice in a run, if at all.
 
And yes, the finger of blame points squarely at the "you're not good enough to raid" crowd. That toxic, elitist, repugnant culture never allowed a lot of players who *could* be good enough to get the experience they needed to actually *get* good. The silver requirement was and is perfectly adequate for guild groups, and mostly unreachable for random PUGs, try though they might, but people weren't even being allowed to finish, let alone work towards a medal. People have said that one shouldn't expect to get a silver after your first few runs, but a certain arrogant, narcissistic element of the population ****ed in the PUG pool so much that all many players ever had was their first few runs, over and over and over again.
 
So yeah, that's where I land. If you're calling for silver to stay because you think most of the people aren't good enough to pass it and it'll filter out the weak, I would guess you're likely not keen to help people experience the entirety of a dungeon once a silver medal opportunity has passed. Not everyone in the elitist crowd is so callous and inconsiderate of the inexperienced, but as to the rest of you, you only have yourself to blame - if you weren't so arrogant and dismissive, if you didn't  have such a terrible attitude towards people less experienced than you, no matter how keen they were to learn, the attunement easing wouldn't have been necessary. You did this to yourselves.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Bottom line for me is that the change will be a benefit. People who aren't good enough to raid will still get weeded out and benched, people who are will stay on the team - there'll just be a wider pool to pick from, including a good number who are good enough to raid but haven't got that last silver medal for one reason or another. The only difference is that the trial will be in a raid environment rather than a dungeon, in raid time we'll only have because of the faster attunement. There'll be plenty of attuned guild members around to swap in for people that just aren't working out. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that just because attunement is more accessible their raids are suddenly going to be flooded with incompetents and they'll never make any progression again because of the wealth of bad players dragging them down - that's not the bad players throwing a spanner in the works, it's whoever is doing a *cupcake*-poor job of managing your raid team. Just focus on what you're doing and leave everyone else to their own game. Doughnuts don't taste worse if everyone else can get them too.
 
The big difference for me though is actually being able to PUG dungeons when I feel like it. If ?I'm benched for the night and there aren't many other guildies around, I can heal a dungeon run to keep myself entertained without some entitled little **** tank ditching because we failed a silver requirement and we have to disband because every new member immediately drops out when s/he sees it's not a silver run. Not just me, many more people will be able to find a dungeon group with good hopes of actually finishing the dungeon - how many PUG groups could say that before? LFG was a terrible, terrible way to get a silver medal, and by focusing only on that and abandoning the run if it didn't go off without a hitch, those players with their terrible attitudes completely poisoned the PUG system. Nobody could learn dungeons outside of a guild group - there's only so much a youtube tutorial can teach you. The vast, vast majority of runs ended early, and here's the dirty little secret: it's your fault.
 
You know exactly who I mean. The ones who flocked to the 'hardcore' banner and denigrated anyone for whom the play-style didn't fit. The people who engendered a gold-or-bust mentality in vet adventures under the guaranteed loot system, which still persists into the new loot system today - people would rather drop a Malgrave Trail run 10 minutes or less before the end, taking the 15min deserter debuff instead, than finish the damn run in less time for silver rather than gold rewards. All for an extra roll on a 10% epic chance table. The same people made LFG completely unusable for players who didn't already know the instance, because as soon as a silver wasn't in sight the run was over. I know players who have been PUGging dungeons since the first few weeks and have never seen past the first boss or two in any instance - not because they're bad players, they're really not, but because there were often bad players in the group, and once a silver was out of sight, people would rather drop it than actually let people see the rest of the dungeon. Players couldn't learn the boss fights on-site because they saw them maybe once or twice in a run, if at all.
 
And yes, the finger of blame points squarely at the "you're not good enough to raid" crowd. That toxic, elitist, repugnant culture never allowed a lot of players who *could* be good enough to get the experience they needed to actually *get* good. The silver requirement was and is perfectly adequate for guild groups, and mostly unreachable for random PUGs, try though they might, but people weren't even being allowed to finish, let alone work towards a medal. People have said that one shouldn't expect to get a silver after your first few runs, but a certain arrogant, narcissistic element of the population ****ed in the PUG pool so much that all many players ever had was their first few runs, over and over and over again.
 
So yeah, that's where I land. If you're calling for silver to stay because you think most of the people aren't good enough to pass it and it'll filter out the weak, I would guess you're likely not keen to help people experience the entirety of a dungeon once a silver medal opportunity has passed. Not everyone in the elitist crowd is so callous and inconsiderate of the inexperienced, but as to the rest of you, you only have yourself to blame - if you weren't so arrogant and dismissive, if you didn't  have such a terrible attitude towards people less experienced than you, no matter how keen they were to learn, the attunement easing wouldn't have been necessary. You did this to yourselves.
----
			Just to clarify, and because I'm sure the criticisms will start rolling in, I've always been in support of silver for attunement. I have, however, always been against PUGs for silver. In my opinion, PUGs should have been used for casual runs, bronze medals, learning the instances and a shot at some good loot - guilds, circles, even zone chat should have been the go-to source for silver and beyond. PUGs for silver is what really brought this change about.	
----
			
I really wasn't looking to find WoW 2.0 and I really hope that's not the direction Carbine is headed in. I thought Wildstar made a smart move by not allowing zerging to end game, i.e. attunement, because that meant that they could take their time rolling out content for one. But the # 1 complaint I've seen is “I can't clear content under time conditions because pug groups leave.”
 
Why are you pugging? Is your guild not helping you? Guilds are supposed to look out for their guildies. That is the whole point. Are you not participating in your guild at all? Have you taken any initiative in your guild at all? That could be another problem. Can't find a guild? I find that incredibly hard to believe, so many guilds are recruiting. Have you actually looked?
 
When my guild started our attunement process our officers were preaching everyday; “you need attunement, you need runs? Get in teamspeak. Get on and we will run you, we will show you.” We uploaded videos, we put together various groups, and kept forcing people to jump in and run the content. Our first vet dungeon, back when STL was 30 minutes, we stayed in there longer than in any raid we had in WoW. And the players that were attuned went back and helped the others because you're going to have to raid with your guild; just makes sense. If your guild does not do that for you, it is time to find another guild.
 
So my question still reamins: Why are you trying to PUG challenging/difficult/”insert whatever term you want here” content? There are even circles in this game. I don't get it.
 
And all of this can be done without exploits. Why? Two reasons: 1) eventually bugs get patched so learn how to do the content so you're not SOL when things are working as intended. 2) we paid for a challenging game. Why pay for a challenge and then cheese it? You've just cheated yourself. You paid more for cheats, way to go. Not to mention if you cheese it, good luck with the raids.
 
Making the timer is all about moments of opportunity [MoO], communication, knowing what to pull and not to pull, and knowing what to interrupt. This is what the timer is indirectly trying to teach because to make that time legitimately, you have to be doing this. 
 
And this is not a post to say “yay us”, but rather to show that the purpose behind the dungeon attunement can be done legitimately and as intended, and when done it really is actually rewarding and fun. Right now the dungeon attunement is the only, for lack of a better word, “skill challenge” and hard part. The rest is just a time synch. So if Carbine really chooses to go in this direction my only question is:
 
Why not just remove attunement entirely?	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I really wasn't looking to find WoW 2.0 and I really hope that's not the direction Carbine is headed in. I thought Wildstar made a smart move by not allowing zerging to end game, i.e. attunement, because that meant that they could take their time rolling out content for one. But the # 1 complaint I've seen is “I can't clear content under time conditions because pug groups leave.”
 
Why are you pugging? Is your guild not helping you? Guilds are supposed to look out for their guildies. That is the whole point. Are you not participating in your guild at all? Have you taken any initiative in your guild at all? That could be another problem. Can't find a guild? I find that incredibly hard to believe, so many guilds are recruiting. Have you actually looked?
 
When my guild started our attunement process our officers were preaching everyday; “you need attunement, you need runs? Get in teamspeak. Get on and we will run you, we will show you.” We uploaded videos, we put together various groups, and kept forcing people to jump in and run the content. Our first vet dungeon, back when STL was 30 minutes, we stayed in there longer than in any raid we had in WoW. And the players that were attuned went back and helped the others because you're going to have to raid with your guild; just makes sense. If your guild does not do that for you, it is time to find another guild.
 
So my question still reamins: Why are you trying to PUG challenging/difficult/”insert whatever term you want here” content? There are even circles in this game. I don't get it.
 
And all of this can be done without exploits. Why? Two reasons: 1) eventually bugs get patched so learn how to do the content so you're not SOL when things are working as intended. 2) we paid for a challenging game. Why pay for a challenge and then cheese it? You've just cheated yourself. You paid more for cheats, way to go. Not to mention if you cheese it, good luck with the raids.
 
Making the timer is all about moments of opportunity [MoO], communication, knowing what to pull and not to pull, and knowing what to interrupt. This is what the timer is indirectly trying to teach because to make that time legitimately, you have to be doing this.
 
And this is not a post to say “yay us”, but rather to show that the purpose behind the dungeon attunement can be done legitimately and as intended, and when done it really is actually rewarding and fun. Right now the dungeon attunement is the only, for lack of a better word, “skill challenge” and hard part. The rest is just a time synch. So if Carbine really chooses to go in this direction my only question is:
 
Why not just remove attunement entirely?
----
			i applaud this change. timers are silly and not representative of raids either. 	
----
			Then they need to take out the attunement process. The attunement process is not representative of raids at all.	
----
			
Just keep in mind that Stephan Frost said:
 
So much lol'z	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Then they need to take out the attunement process. The attunement process is not representative of raids at all.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So you would want a game to last about 1-3 months. That is when the Hardcore players are done with the content. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That would be silly ever mmo needs timegates ;)
----
			
@ Yokai:
 
Leveling dungeons. Leveling. Not end-game. Also not tuning down the difficulty, just the requirements for raid attunement. If you're going to be snippy, you might want to get your facts sorted first.	
----
			I come from an FFXI /FFXIV background so I never not have done attunements/gated content.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Just keep in mind that Stephan Frost said:
 
So much lol'z
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
So... basically, you're just fine with carries. Your only requirement of them is that some uberteam can move them through a dungeon without getting them killed.
 
XD Yeah. OK. You're a real champion of upholding the purity of raiding skills there.
----
			
To all of the "being able to beat a dungeon in x time only proves you can skip trash better than others" or "I wager 70% of you who did silver exploited terrain"
 
With the recent changes to the dungeons, you no longer need to skip any trash, in fact, you cannot skip trash for the most part. The instances/optionals were streamlined to the point where the timer is simply there to enforce a generally error-free run. That's what silver means to me. Generally error-free. Gold = Zero Errors, Silver = Some Errors, Bronze = ZOMG LOTS OF ERRORS., No Medal = Honestly, we didn't really try.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
Keep in mind that dungeon difficulty wasn't nerfed, the attunement was and i'm missing the reference to the attunement in both twitter question and answer. To even go further it literally is about asking to lower the leveling dungeon difficulty not even the veteran modes.
 
You're trying a bit too hard here.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And making easier access to the raid will result in the raid being nerfed. There's just no way it won't.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And making easier access to the raid will result in the raid being nerfed. There's just no way it won't.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
To all of the "being able to beat a dungeon in x time only proves you can skip trash better than others" or "I wager 70% of you who did silver exploited terrain"
 
With the recent changes to the dungeons, you no longer need to skip any trash, in fact, you cannot skip trash for the most part. The instances/optionals were streamlined to the point where the timer is simply there to enforce a generally error-free run. That's what silver means to me. Generally error-free. Gold = Zero Errors, Silver = Some Errors, Bronze = ZOMG LOTS OF ERRORS., No Medal = Honestly, we didn't really try.
----
			
Lets be honest, silver was not hard. You just needed a vaguely clean run, you could wipe a number of times in each of the dungeons and still get silver. If can't run it (at least once) without wiping more than a few times whilst running dungeons then, honestly, you should not be able to go into the raids.
 
It's not a hard timer, so I'm kind of bummed for this change. However as long as they don't touch the raids when people starting QQing there after they get their free attunements, then I can deal with it.
 
But if they start nerfing the raids that have already been cleared by people, it will be for shame on Carbine.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
You can't pre-empt an argument that has YET to happen, BEFORE it happens. (and has nothing to do with this one)
 
This is about a larger pool of raiders, which is a GOOD thing.
 
Timetravel has stated they will NOT nurf difficulty of raids, so cheer up buttercup.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Lets be honest, silver was not hard. You just needed a vaguely clean run, you could wipe a number of times in each of the dungeons and still get silver. If can't run it without wiping more than a few times whilst running dungeons then, honestly, you should not be able to go into the raids.
 
It's not a hard timer, so I'm kind of bummed for this change. However as long as they don't touch the raids when people starting QQing there after they get their free attunements, then I can deal with it.
 
But if they start nerfing the raids that have already been cleared by people, it will be for shame on Carbine.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
if that's the case and people are so gun-ho crazy over times, even though to be honest that's entirely collateral, what the time synch test is something entirely different, see supra; then maybe they should just change what qualifies as silver?
 
Bronze  = you finished the dungeon
Silver = You completed all the Optional and Challenges
Gold = You completed all the Optionals and Challenges and you did it in X amount of time and/or without any deaths
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This exactly… it was a modest effort needed to simply run it a few times with your team and Silver came naturally.
 
The problem is too many people were trying to play it solo by queuing. They could't be bothered to put together a static team or guild. 
 
That's why this is such a huge turn in the wrong direction - it is facilitating SOLO play deeper into progression than before - in the first MMO in years that NEEDs it sooner!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
This exactly… it was a modest effort needed to simply run it a few times with your team and Silver came naturally.
 
The problem is too many people were trying to play it solo by queuing. They could't be bothered to put together a static team or guild. 
 
That's why this is such a huge turn in the wrong direction - it is facilitating SOLO play deeper into progression than before - in the first MMO in years that NEEDs it sooner!
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
A larger pool of raiders from a pool of non-groupers. Gotcha.
 
They *just* did something they said they would not do. Words are meaningless.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm still asking in my original post why players are pugging this. Gave several reasonable alternatives and reasons why they shouldn't. If their guild is not helping they need to find a new guild that will, or a guild that is actively forcing players to do it. If that's not happening that's a separate issue altogether. This shouldn't be pugged. Are we going to get LFR next for WS?
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
No touching dungeon medal reward structure would be a worse solution. They are fine were they are now and don't need to be touched for the sake of attunement. That would really open a can of worms.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
No touching dungeon medal reward structure would be a worse solution. They are fine were they are now and don't need to be touched for the sake of attunement. That would really open a can of worms.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They have stated for a while now that the attunement was a bad idea, and that future attunements would not follow the same drawn out path.
 
So where in that is them going against their word?
 
[...]
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
They have stated for a while now that the attunement was a bad idea, and that future attunements would not follow the same drawn out path.
 
So where in that is them going against their word?
 
There are HEAPS of players who CAN and ARE capable of silver, but since the dungeon needs 5 people, and they are 1, they are being blocked from it due to the current set up. (some guilds won't accept you without dungeons already completed, others don't want to burden their future guilds with having to back track to help them through content they can get done, so they get slaughtered in LFG pug groups that disband after 1 wipe. Due to the timer that will NO LONGER be the issue!
 
 
Those players will become successful additions to the raiding guilds (who are struggling to fill their ranks and most are tired of constantly running dungeons (or worse.. .carrying) people who need attunement through them)
 
All this does, is move the sorting of players from dungeons to raids, and save the hassle of every raid group who had to back track to attune newer raiders the countless hours of boredom and frustration that went with it.
 
Every successful guild already screens their applicants and trials them and what not. There is no loss in raid progression from this change. Infact there's a boost to it because you dont have to run people through their dungeons anymore. You take them to test on whatever content you want and away you go.
 
It's no longer about 'take them or don't raid' it's about 'lets pick the best team we can out of the pool we have available' now.
 
Does that scare some of the people who bought their attunement? Afraid newer more skilled but less time to play raiders will knock them out of their positions??
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Sadly, that's my guess. That's why I'm seriously contemplating sticking around. I just can't afford to invest time if the game is going to fundamentally shift from it's core original design goals.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no arguing. If there was a successful "petition" to get the timers removed, I am going to carry the torch to get the system changed again so that Gold is required, but without a timer. Seems sensible to me.
----
			Ahem....please nerf Raids....	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no arguing. If there was a successful "petition" to get the timers removed, I am going to carry the torch to get the system changed again so that Gold is required, but without a timer. Seems sensible to me.
----
			
     Getting into a raid should not be determined by wether or not your kid barfs on the dog, or your dog barfs on your kid (trust me it happens). 
 
     Timed runs were always a bad idea.  There are so many ways to get forced to go AFK due to real life circumstances.
 
If you want a 5 man that gets players ready for raiding, set up a medal system that rewards players based on the actual fight mechanics.  Staying out of red, healing, dpsing, threat generation and interupting effectively.
			
				
	Edited August 13, 2014 by Quuarm	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What's the point of that? If you can do gold, then I guarantee you're doing it well within the timer. Unless you're sitting down for a steak dinner inbetween pulls.. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
     Getting into a raid should not be determined by wether or not you kid barfs on the dog, or your dog barfs on your kid (trust me it happens). 
 
     Timed runs were always a bad idea.  There are so many ways to get forced to go AFK due to real life circumstances.
 
If you want a 5 man that gets players ready for raiding, set up a medal system that rewards players based on the actual fight mechanics.  Staying out of red, healing, dpsing, threat generation and interupting effectively.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If the issue is timers, then I agree in a sense. As I stated before the timers were indirectly testing time management, i.e. do you know you're in a dungeon, do you know where x is, do you know how to MoO, etc. If that is agreeable then yes, the timer test this indirectly but taking it out and making silver require challenges with all the time in the world would facilitate what the timers tried to do. If that's an issue than I think it really boils down to the original fact that players are trying to PUG content for some reason. Which I still have no idea why that would be. If your guild is not helping you do this, find another guild that will. (or heck even a circle, you don't even have to leave your current guild if you don't want to for some reason)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That time management is not ideal solution to greet fresh ding 50 players. Especially when the content drops are not reward enough for people. People hit the brickwall and most of them actually give up or drama at each other. 1-2 wipes, then disband is not ideal situation. Time limit content should be there for completionist, for extra reward but shouldnt be mandatory requirement for raid. You get extra %loot sure, go ahead but not forced all people to be in the time limit.
 
Not everyone have the luxury to find the guild that willing to help you 24/7. Not everyone get that chance, dont assume because you get the easier way meaning the others can do just like you. Sure with some people, you can silver the dungeon and beat the timer by miles, no mistake. But there are many more that cant. There is a reason why only 200 guilds both NA/EU had just 1/6 GA. There are basicly too few guilds that able to get to raid in a 3 month timeframe meaning some people basicly failed.
 
Carbine knew this, not because the forum QQ alone, but the arbitary numbers that showed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That time management is not ideal solution to greet fresh ding 50 players. Especially when the content drops are not reward enough for people. People hit the brickwall and most of them actually give up or drama at each other. 1-2 wipes, then disband is not ideal situation. Time limit content should be there for completionist, for extra reward but shouldnt be mandatory requirement for raid. You get extra %loot sure, go ahead but not forced all people to be in the time limit.
 
Not everyone have the luxury to find the guild that willing to help you 24/7. Not everyone get that chance, dont assume because you get the easier way meaning the others can do just like you. Sure with some people, you can silver the dungeon and beat the timer by miles, no mistake. But there are many more that cant. There is a reason why only 200 guilds both NA/EU had just 1/6 GA. There are basicly too few guilds that able to get to raid in a 3 month timeframe meaning some people basicly failed and those are majority of population based. You dont throw "Frustration" to your major subscribers. You suppose to give "Fun,Rewarding, and Challenging" to them. This game nitch to sell "Challenge" to us, do it right, make it rewarding, and not build too much challenge to become early brickwall.
 
Carbine knew this, not because the forum QQ alone, but the arbitary numbers that showed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
What's the point of that? If you can do gold, then I guarantee you're doing it well within the timer. Unless you're sitting down for a steak dinner inbetween pulls.. 
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
And for the record I'm not saying its a luxury that a guild is willing to help. But I see them recruiting all the time and some players that say they have to PUG because their guild never helps them or is never on, I just don't understand that, especially in a game where you also have circles. Unless your server is dead, which is an entirely different issue, I have no idea how one guild or circle on a server could not be found willing to do any of this. Especially again since you need 20 players for the first raid.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
That time management is not ideal solution to greet fresh ding 50 players. Especially when the content drops are not reward enough for people. People hit the brickwall and most of them actually give up or drama at each other. 1-2 wipes, then disband is not ideal situation. Time limit content should be there for completionist, for extra reward but shouldnt be mandatory requirement for raid. You get extra %loot sure, go ahead but not forced all people to be in the time limit.
 
Not everyone have the luxury to find the guild that willing to help you 24/7. Not everyone get that chance, dont assume because you get the easier way meaning the others can do just like you. Sure with some people, you can silver the dungeon and beat the timer by miles, no mistake. But there are many more that cant. There is a reason why only 200 guilds both NA/EU had just 1/6 GA. There are basicly too few guilds that able to get to raid in a 3 month timeframe meaning some people basicly failed and those are majority of population based. You dont throw "Frustration" to your major subscribers. You suppose to give "Fun,Rewarding, and Challenging" to them. This game nitch to sell "Challenge" to us, do it right, make it rewarding, and not build too much challenge to become early brickwall.
 
Carbine knew this, not because the forum QQ alone, but the arbitary numbers that showed.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If the issue is timers, then I agree in a sense. As I stated before the timers were indirectly testing time management, i.e. do you know you're in a dungeon, do you know where x is, do you know how to MoO, etc. If that is agreeable then yes, the timer test this indirectly but taking it out and making silver require challenges with all the time in the world would facilitate what the timers tried to do. If that's an issue than I think it really boils down to the original fact that players are trying to PUG content for some reason. Which I still have no idea why that would be. If your guild is not helping you do this, find another guild that will. (or heck even a circle, you don't even have to leave your current guild if you don't want to for some reason)
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
 
How does this prepare those who aren't yet attuned for raids?
How could making the attunement process easier possibly make those who aren't attuned MORE prepared for raid?
Now, instead of having a very small portion of skilled players who are attuned, we're going to have a massive entity of players who are attuned, and completely clueless.
What step of the attunement you were on was easily the best way for guilds to quickly weed out those who were not up to par during the recruitment process - now any Joe Schmoe can be attuned.
 
----
			
 I think the change is for the better.
 
What I do find amazing is all the "It is not fair we will have scrubs in our raids ...." or the " It will be a slippery slope" arguments going on reminds me of the guys standing on the corner holding the "END is near" " Doom is Coming" signs....
..
 
All the guilds out there advertising " Will carry you to silver..pay us.." selling silver runs ... those people are fine to run with?  The if you have atuunment by this date you are hardcore....really ? so joe blow who paid to get his tushy carried ( and LOTS of players did it) is grandfathered in and not a "Bad" because he can link his silver achievement he paid for?If I were those hardcore players upset ...I would be more upset over a fake. ( takes the specialness out of silver when you have those who paid for it lol)
 
I would rather play with someone who has the capacity to run a run and clear it and figure out the strat with the ability to learn, than the loser who got silver because he put out the plat... I did not see all this crying and snotting when that was going on.
 
The slippery slope argument... well lets just dust off those crystal balls and magic 8 balls because everyone here is a gypsy .. I feel the voodoo in the air.
 
No one knows what is going to happen till it happens .. If you are so dead set against playing with people who were attuned by the Bronze age of things, do not play with them simple.
 
Make your "Hardcore" requirements silver or bust . Who cares what other people do in their raids or who is running what. How is that guild running with players attuned with bronze going to hinder you?The content is still the same, you can exploit the bosses and bug them out and teach people how to "skillfully" maneuver to win a silver. That has not changed. Guilds can still make plat  from people willing to pay to get silver ( this just makes me LOL) so they can fail at raids because they are expecting to just be carried ..... 
 
The whole it is going to lead to other things down the road it is just a " Slippery slope"  You do not know 100 percent for sure what is going to happen so why cry about it now? When and if it happens then you can make that argument.... If we start crying about "what ifs"  and predicting the worst you might as well pack up and go hide in the bomb shelter.
 
Expect the best ( more people play) prepare for the worst.... but till that point just enjoy the game. Set your standards higher and do not worry about what other people are attuned by. You can gate your own guilds by adding the " you must be this high to raid with us" , and  this should not have any effect on you at all. ( at this moment ,deal with the what if's ... IF they happen)	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm trying to find the *actual* solution to this…
 
By removing timers from medal runs, for players who are yet to be attuned…. then tweaking attunement so that Gold is required (no deaths) this accomplishes 2 things:
 
Removing the arbitrary timers that everyone was arguing have nothing to do with skill	Assures skill is the primary driver to success, as there;s no way to carry someone through a dungeon who can't get out of red and die even once
 
This solution seems more true to the original promised vision for WildStar, so I feel it's important that Carbine consider upping the skill requirement, not lower it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm trying to find the *actual* solution to this…
 
By removing timers from medal runs, for players who are yet to be attuned…. then tweaking attunement so that Gold is required (no deaths) this accomplishes 2 things:
 
Removing the arbitrary timers that everyone was arguing have nothing to do with skill	Assures skill is the primary driver to success, as there;s no way to carry someone through a dungeon who can't get out of red and die even once
 
This solution seems more true to the original promised vision for WildStar, so I feel it's important that Carbine consider upping the skill requirement, not lower it.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
It also assures that any souce of lag ruins everyone's chances of a Gold.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
I'm trying to find the *actual* solution to this…
 
By removing timers from medal runs, for players who are yet to be attuned…. then tweaking attunement so that Gold is required (no deaths) this accomplishes 2 things:
 
Removing the arbitrary timers that everyone was arguing have nothing to do with skill	Assures skill is the primary driver to success, as there;s no way to carry someone through a dungeon who can't get out of red and die even once
 
This solution seems more true to the original promised vision for WildStar, so I feel it's important that Carbine consider upping the skill requirement, not lower it.
----
			
AT LEAST give us a Galactic Hotshot achievement for completing the original attunement process.
 
This would at least give players who did it something cool and unique attached to their account.	
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
We have circles too, and it's basicly quiet like shit. You have to get an idea that when the content become this much pressure, people tend to stick with their own party. Not so many tend to help some unknown friends. My guild broke, and i found the new only guild but still they havent get much time to help me complete attune as they already begin raiding and raiding take nights.
 
As some people mentioned, this game flavoured those who have strong networking already. For some random people grouping together, sometimes it just doesnt work, especially if you're in the offpeak timezone like me. You might think wow, you can find guilds everywhere but in fact no. I am on Widow, and there is only ONE SEA guild left in this entire dominion faction. It's sad state if you ask me. Soon you will have no one to play with offpeak your NA time because we cant live without population mate.
 
The changes, it might even too late for us as well since most of my friends already quit and move on. Not too sure if we will get back to the game enough to raid on our own.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
There is no arguing. If there was a successful "petition" to get the timers removed, I am going to carry the torch to get the system changed again so that Gold is required, but without a timer. Seems sensible to me.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
"No death" is even worse than a "timed content". On timed content you can have some dead but only 1-3 wipes. Lol, you must be smoking or really high on your pride.
 
You can have your pride still at gold medal trying but dont force everyone to be on the same level tryhard like you planned everything to be. The game is for 99% "everyone" not for 1% of "skilled players". Good game cater both, you have your share of content, your proud 6/6GA cleared, while others should have something for them to do as well.
 
I'm quite surprise that i have to deal with certain 2-4 people in this forum who have "Extreme thought" and "High Epeen" who refused to listen to anything casuals like us trying to explain. They just assumed, raiding is for the pro, and those who failed to get silver deserve to play another game. That's just failed logic.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
If you're going to quit thinking this is so game breaking and a shift from future visions, you WILL have lots of problems in this genre of games.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Exactly right on all counts. 
 
Players don't think a guild should be necessary, or even a static team, to have success in a hardcore MMO. And this action seems to indicate Carbine is facilitating that. Until they get to the raids, and fall flat… then a new wave of posts on the forum will appear. And the cycle will continue.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Oh, so now we move on to "blame the lag for my lack of skill".
 
Here's what happens: run it again.
----
			
{| class="blockquote"
Petition my ass. The games population dropped so severely that they had no choice. Now people can do things when they can instead of when their group is around. This move may have just saved the game. But by all means, go ahead and "petition" to your little hearts content. Keep trying to push obviously failed concepts and see what that gets you. Players voted with their wallets and now carbine is listening.
 
     3. Makes any group that forms disband as soon as a death occurs and further drives players away from the game.
 
Maybe the vision for Wildstar was wrong and players want a challenge, not a second job.
 
And here's what actually happens: Screw this. *Leaves and takes friends with them*
----