120370-attuned-and-unattuned-endgame-content-page-6

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Yes, because it is completely unthinkable that the developers may have intended for it to do something and failed to implement what they intended correctly.
 
By the same logic, they intended for PvP queues to be untenable for anyone new to PvP or anyone with raid gear.
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As for your argument equating mine with the bad design behind pvp ques, they simply don't equate. You haven't addressed the multiple parts of the attunement that are unrelated to raid-readiness and related to the quest and story of the attunement process. I wasn't saying that just because the attunement process doesn't test raid-readiness well, it must have not been designed too, rather I was arguing that the nature of the attunement strongly supports the inference that its main purpose is not to test raid readiness. 
 
Inductive reasoning is a logical argument for the liklihood of a conclusion based on the strength of the premises, while not as strong as deductive reasoning, it is definitively more persuasive than assertions without any reasoning behind them. 
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			I can agree with you to an extent, but I disagree with the conclusion you reach. One, I don't think the time-sink is particularly onerous. A person with a guild or other group of friends can attune themselves in a matter of a few days. Additionally, I don't think my inductive reasoning ranged beyond the impermissible. I think that the attunement process as a means to funnel new players into content via a quest is just as reasonable a conclusion of "testing raid-readiness," especially given the reduction of the silver dungeon requirement to bronze. I would also point out that certain quests you pointed out (housing, runes, etc) are less integrated if at all into the world story than the raid attunement quest. I guess I just don't see the issue, with the exception of the number of world bosses, a player needs to do all the content attunement requires to gear up for GA anyway. Its very much like the WoW attunement to Kharazhan in BC, which required you to do various level 70 heroic and non-heroic dungeons, thus introducing you to the content. 	
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I can agree with you to an extent, but I disagree with the conclusion you reach. One, I don't think the time-sink is particularly onerous. A person with a guild or other group of friends can attune themselves in a matter of a few days. 
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But if they're in a guild that's not dedicated to raiding, or prefer to actually try to learn content rather than follow the game guide, or aren't chums with a bunch of overgeared players--or aren't willing to be carried--a few days of playtime may well take a few weeks chronologically. That's a long time to sit in a single quest line.
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			Meh, I don't think raids need some sort of readiness test. I'm okay with having an attunement chain, but I rather prefer it as a "quest chain with some story leading up to the raid". Don't really like an overabundance of meta-ness. That's largely why I don't mind the current requirements (with the exception of the world boss part, which I've detailed my frustrations with previously) and I'm actually looking forward to the more unique story-like bits in the chain. I love questing, though. XD	
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Because many of us prefer to try and fail than to be told we're not even allowed to try at all. That's the issue. I'm not five years old, and I don't need or want this game to treat me like I am. They let my level 22 character into Malgrave, where the monsters will make short work of him. They don't worry that I'll rage quit, they put up a warning that says "Hey, you're really underlevel for this! Are you sure?" And when I click "yeah, get out of my way", they do.
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If people aren't in a guild, or at least a circle, dedicated to raiding, then what what benefit would these players gain from removing attunement? Because they are going to need a dedicated group in order to actually raid. If you are set up with your in game relationships and your out of game commitments to be able to raid, attunement shouldn't be much of a block at all. Necessary? Probably not, but not much of a problem either.
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Your comment is a bit selfish. What about the other 19 people times you'd be wasting (or any other just-hit-50-want-to-raid-NOW) with your try?
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And that is the attitude that keeps attunement how it is. What on earth makes players here think that nobody should even be allowed to TRY to raid unless they're in a raiding guild dedicated to the activity? It's not OK for people to want to scrape together enough friends who are all interested in trying it when they can? To see if they even WANT to get serious about it? He said this OR that OR the other. Stop twisting words to your own liking.
 
There's a smooth continuum of player interests in raiding, guild sizes, and group coordinations, it doesn't break down into "committed" and "flatly disinterested". And this should be completely obvious to everyone. The more roadblocks you put up, the more people who might otherwise be interested who won't even bother finding out; the more people who would make it through a less comprehensive attunement grind will fail to make it through this one; the more people who would do it in a week instead take two weeks; the more people who would do it in two weeks take a month. And at every step of the way, if just a few of their friends say "meh, not worth my time to bother", the whole thing grinds to a stop until they find replacements or decide to just quit themselves.
 
And when they do that in a game that has an endgame that is carefully and deliberately designed to make it clear that the PvE endgame IS an almost entirely vertical progression from solo<<team<<raid group, then you lose those players. I don't follow here, that's the natural progression of PvE content, the attunement process does a beautiful way at displaying that. You may be able to solo 1 or 2 world bosses, but try soloing Hellrose bowl, trying doing the Farside boss without some semblance of strategy, please stream it when you do.
 
So yeah, I'm sure that if you already have a large enough set of friends in place who are stably in the game and highly interested in raiding as a major investment of their time, then you can get every part of attunement done whenever you want and it's no big deal. Done in a matter of hours. Not a problem. But if you're closer to the edge of "able to get the interest together sometimes but not always", then it becomes a much more involved and difficult process--which makes itself more involved and difficult by virtue of being a far longer process than it really needs to be if the majority of what you need to do to be raid-ready doesn't occur as part of attunement anyway. Again, you make false assumptions that have been unproven by nearly everyone that has replied to you.
 
If after everything I've posted you still don't see why I think it's a problem in its current form, all I can say is "go back and read what I have already said in this very thread". 9/10 people are responding directly to what you say (must make you feel pretty important which I guess is the reason you hijacked this thread to begin with).
 
 
It is, but I would never propose implementing just that and nothing else. I agree that would make attunement a complete slog that nobody would do. I think if people are serious about attunement having some kind of meaning outside of "most bloated questline EVER", then the stuff that's in it that you can't do yourself on your own time needs to be focused like a laser on that which is the bare minimum required to know what you need to know to viably step onto the first rung of the raiding ladder. To raid, you need skill playing your character, starting gear (that has minimum hp, ap/sp, FRR, or tanking stats), knowledge (don't come to my raid unprepared), ability to work as a team, and a decent schedule to be able to sit at your computer until raid time is over (taking minimal breaks). All of this is taught at some point in the attunement process, aka the natural PvE progression. If you think otherwise then please enlighten us as to what raiding actually requires.
 
One demonstration that you can spot a mechanic, identify what it is, and learn how to beat it. One demonstration that you understand your role in the context of the Trinity. One demonstration that you can get together in a group of 20 people and coordinate to take down something big. Being told where to go to get gear if the gear you have isn't sufficient. And that's IT. Much less content, but the content that's there is stuff you have to actually contribute meaningfully to. Unfortunately fights don't consist of just one mechanic. This goes for raids as well. A raid isn't just 1 boss over and over with 1 mechanic. There's many moving parts involved with a raid. There is nothing that demonstrates your ability to gather 20 people to a raid. That is a leadership trait the game doesn't prepare you for. You are asked to be part of a group, bigger picture, with more than just your selfish needs to think about.
 
And yeah, I'm well aware that this idea has been REALLY unpopular among a handful of people who are members of big raiding guilds who do a lot of carries through attunement. I could speculate as to why they're so opposed to it, but I will note the relevance of "opposed to making it easier at the same time they're opposed to preventing carries that make it a complete cakewalk". And I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned that point too. There is virtually no way to prevent carries. Every suggestion you have brought forward that would prevent carries does in fact make it unnecessarily harder. Short from banning people who desire to help other people, how on earth does preventing someone who ever set foot in GA from helping a fresh 50 make it easier?
 
But it should be noted that this game has already faced a number of really serious and unpleasant business consequences of misreading what interests their target audience. I would guess that most of the reason why this is the case is that a small subset of their audience is really good at shouting down opposition, to the point that they're run off all but a few stubborn malcontents who shove back when they get shoved. So all due respect, the fact that it wouldn't benefit the people who are already in raids and would far rather have control over the gate that lets other people raid doesn't bug me at all.
 
As for who it would benefit, that would be people who actually want the process to be meaningful and focused, who want to try raiding but not enough to bother grinding through a bunch of stuff that clearly even many of the people who already raid thinks has no real purpose; who aren't going to leave a guild with all their friends and family members just to go raid; who aren't going to tolerate having some impatient *cupcake* drop them for having to change a diaper; who think being carried over stuff cheapens their own gaming experience. Circles exist for a reason, as do guilds. I have a circle of close friends that aren't in my guild. We have been friends for 10+ years, playing MMOs together. We have only once been in the same guild way back in Vanilla WoW. I don't want to take someone in my raid that isn't going to be committed. Someone that, when I set a schedule that he/she agrees upon, will flake out and be a no-show when it's crunch time. Raiding isn't a painless process. It requires sacrifice, time, and effort. Our raid starts at 9pm EST, 7pm MST. Usually about 10-20 minutes into the raid, I have to put my daughter to bed. I told this to my guild when we set our schedule, they accepted it, and we have adapted and overcome. 
 
But hey, nobody's making the devs listen to my advice, it won't hurt my feelings it they don't do it. I make no claim to knowing for sure whether it's a large-scale problem or just something in the way of the particular subset of players I know. But I do know that the people who are already through attunement and already raiding are a small minority of the overall customerbase, and that the number of people in DS40 is negligible in comparison to the game's total population. DS20 is clearly meant as an incentive to promote people who aren't raiding into doing it, as are a number of changes in Drop 4. If those don't do it for them, they're going to be trying to sort out why not. I believe you are 100% mistaken as to the reason behind DS20. It is not to get people into raiding, as GA is the first step into raiding and only has a 20 player requirement (suggestion?). DS20 is to keep more guilds who beat GA from leaving. No one is sitting there going "finally DS is going to be 20 players, now I can start raiding GA for the next 1 - 4 months".
 
And the sort of person in a position to tell them isn't someone who's already a powerraider.
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And that is the attitude that keeps attunement how it is. What on earth makes players here think that nobody should even be allowed to TRY to raid unless they're in a raiding guild dedicated to the activity? It's not OK for people to want to scrape together enough friends who are all interested in trying it when they can? To see if they even WANT to get serious about it?
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			They need to lock this topic it has become toxic and repetitive .	
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who aren't going to leave a guild with all their friends and family members just to go raid; who aren't going to tolerate having some impatient *cupcake* drop them for having to change a diaper; who think being carried over stuff cheapens their own gaming experience. 
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I think I should be attuned to something after reading every single reply. However, I wanted to weigh in--there's actually a ton I want to comment on, so I thought it to be my due diligence to take the time to read them all. I was going to give a lengthy argument about why I think attunement in its current form is acceptable, but I don't have to. The sentence preceding that one is a good enough argument. Instead, I'll say this:
 
The arguments I've seen against attunement (as is) all culminate into one point: it isn't something one wants to do.
 
I'm generalizing, certainly, but after reading what everyone has had to say, that's the jist. There are players out there that just don't want to do it. Fine. I didn't particularly enjoy the world bosses portion of it because I did it before there was a LFM channel on an incredibly low population server (RIP Warbringer). To my past self, and to everyone else hating on it, too bad. Being able to participate in the most fun I've had in an MMORPG is worth doing a few things that I didn't enjoy to get there. The entirety of the attunement process, particularly now in the Bronze Age, is trivial, but it's a time and commitment sink. I think all of us pretty much agree on that point. The disconnect seems to be about whether or not it should or shouldn't be. Well, it should be. I don't particularly adopt an elitist perspective, ever, but I know I'll get lambasted as an elitist for feeling this way: A player does not deserve to see the crown jewel of a game without putting in their dues. Does this upset people? Sure. Does it alienate players? Probably. Is it unappealing to the more pve-casual audience (ATTN: This question was mildly tongue in cheek because I consider my guild to be pretty damn casual with only two raid nights and an officer core that provides raiders with food, boosts, and field techs in addition to giving a brief rundown of the mechanics and our strategy to deal with them prior to progression fights and for any new raiders.)? Yeah, most definitely, but Raiding (this includes the raids themselves and the attunement process) was advertised as being HARDCORE. I enjoy this game because it's hard in general. The raids are incredibly hard. That makes it fun. I can't count the times my couch surfer has sat behind me, mystified by the execution of the raid to overcome mechanics. Actually I can. It would be every raid night since November. He makes a point to watch them like clockwork. People who are so casual they can't bring themselves to dedicate slots of their time to do the stuff for attunement probably wouldn't like raiding in this game, to be entirely honest. I realize, Yasfan, that you'd like to make that decision for yourself. To you I say, get yourself attuned and try it out, instead of bitching about how trivial, time consuming, boring, mundane, or (and?) pointless the process is.  
 
That said, the attunement process needs work. I am actually in accord with Yasfan about the imbuement giving you the ENTIRE attunement list of objectives, then after completion up to step 10, the key changes into something else, and you get the list for the DS attunement. Also World Bosses are, in the current state, silly. It wouldn't be bad if the spawn timers for all world bosses were on the same timer as R-12 though (4 hours). Obviously, this means it is still trivial, but to me attunement post silver screening has been nothing but trivial, and even during the Silver Screening era, the only dungeon that ever gave me difficulty (IN PUGS) was SSM, and that largely had to do with how quickly I could get people on TS (which btw, let me just say that if you queued for a pug back then and expected a successful silver run and didn't have all 3 primary VoIP services installed... you are a bad bad person.)	
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I realize, Yasfan, that you'd like to make that decision for yourself. To you I say, get yourself attuned and try it out, instead of bitching about how trivial, time consuming, boring, mundane, or (and?) pointless the process is.  
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I'm still a little confused about how it all works since half the raiders say that if you can't do attunement then you haven't earned the right to enter a raid instance, while the other half insist that there's nothing to earn and attunement is just a really long quest that should nevertheless not be changed in any way. But since they both agree that the only way it should be quick and easy to get through attunement is by being carried through it, it doesn't really matter.
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Much as I might like to try raiding, I don't need to try it badly enough to do what apparently every raider here is in complete agreement should be necessary to do so: Make the commitment first, see if the commitment was worth it second.
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			And BTW, I was certainly not carried through attunement by any stretch (except on my alt, which I will probably never raid with, through SSM). No one was overgeared at all when I went through on my main. In fact, I ran with a guy that, like you, didn't like to know the fights going in. So there was a LOT of learning and wiping. We chose to do it that way, and we had fun. It didn't take us that long at all, even without being overgeared or without knowing the instances. We did have a dedicated group, though.	
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Now I just  need one more wb, then KV special boss then you can start lobbying to take attunement away. ;)
 
I liked doing it, it was a long adventure of sort. When I was in the middle of one step I was wondering what would be next, even though I had already seen the list but lol could never memorize it  :lol: until now that I'm almost done.
 
My point is I don't think I'm the only one to have enjoyed the process. And for those that don't like it and think it's boring or mundane and can be done easily anyway and even if it doesn't really prepare for raids then why argue for days to have it taken out since there *are* people who enjoy it ?
 
I'm sorry but 90% of this thread has been arguing for the sake of arguing, if not getting attention.	
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Yasfan, while you have been rambling on about how unfair attunement is, I know of seven people that have reached level 50 in that time, attuned and are now raiding. Be it that these are second and third 50's for a few of them, but a couple are fresh players and are now raiding. No one carried them (still not sure what you consider a carry) and they didn't spend all there time in a corner dead at each boss fight. What they did do is work with a group of other people and run the content and played as a team player.
 
 
So I ask you once again.   Why do you hate this game?	
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I'm fairly certain that I've never said any of those things... in fact I'm fairly certain that a fair number of people in this very thread haven't said those things.  
 
Something else to consider is that any one of us could have created a character, leveled to 50, gotten attuned, and then started raiding all in the time since this thread was started.  I'm NOT suggesting that this invalidates the complaints about the process.  Simply that I think it takes less time and effort than some people make it out to.
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			Yasfan, thank you. Seriously, thank you. I don't care if you were being sarcastic or passive-aggressive, but thank you for understanding that raids in this game require a commitment before one can decide if it's fun. Honestly, I believe that's how it should be. No reward without effort, and yes being able to raid, in my opinion, is a reward. 	
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