Report 1595

Report #1595
Skillset: Skill: Avenger
 Org: Cacophony Status: Completed Jan 2017
Furies' Decision:
Solution 1
Problem: This report seeks to first address the issue of Avenger doing
negligible damage that the average player could cure and subsequently tank
(arguably indefinitely), and secondly address the issue of Avenger in enemy
territory. Currently, if Player A attacks Player B in denizen territory that
Player B is enemied to, such as the Illithoid Prisons or Kephera areas, Player B
is not able to defend themselves unless they declare Player A. Essentially,
Player A can grief Player B with no consequences, because if Player B fights
back and kills Player A once, then Player A returns to attack them and Player B
again retaliates, without even killing player A, Player A can enact vengeance
upon them. While I acknowledge that yes, it is enemy territory, this can, and
has, been abused.
[A:16 R: 0] Solution #1: Change Avenger to an instant kill. Not seeking to
 change the way the Avatar works, just that when the
 Avatar reaches the room with the person in it they
 are instantly killed.
[A: 6 R: 9] Solution #2: Change the way that Avenger is handled in enemy
 territory. Using the same designations as I did
 above, Player A should be free to attack Player B
 without restrictions if Player B is in enemy
 territory, including denizen areas. However, if
 Player A engages in combat with Player B, Avenger
 needs to no longer apply, in order to allow Player B
 some sort of recourse. However, if Player B attacks
 Player A first in territory that Player B is enemied
 to but not Player A, Avenger should still apply to
 Player B.
Player Comments:
---[Lerad on 1/8 @ 01:05 writes]:
I'm wary of changing Avenger mechanics (beyond changing it to be an instantkill,
or just increasing its potency for the new meta). What kind of abuses
specifically are we talking about, regarding avenger mechanics in denizen area
enemy territory? If those can be explained and listed, I think this will go a
long way to explaining why it needs to be changed beyond "it has been abused".
---[Shedrin on 1/8 @ 03:02 writes]:
Currently there is a situation where if a player is in enemy territory, and gets
attacked, then kills their attacker, they get status. If they get attacked again
by that same person and kill their attacker again, they can get avengered. This
leads to situation where a person is unable to defend themselves and their only
recourse is to run/avoid the area entirely. (I think this is actually fine for
prime org territory, but not denizen territory.)
---[Anelissa on 1/8 @ 04:55 writes]:
Lerad, I will give you the exact situation that prompted this report. I was in
Illithoid Prison hunting the illithoid. Malarious came out to the prison and
attacked me. I am enemied to the prison, so I had to declare him to defend
myself, he was allowed to attack me freely. He ran from the fight, I did not
pursue him. I went back to bashing, he sent me some tells tells me to leave his
influenceables alone. He attacked me again, I killed him this time after killing
the illithoid I was bashing. He ressed and came back to fight me again, he was
able to attack freely. I tried to declare, but even then I couldn't hit him back
to defend myself. I had to PK CAREFUL OFF in order to hit him to defend myself.
As soon as I hit him with suspect, I got a vengeance status. I killed him in a
fair fight again, I got a 2nd vengeance status. Malarious then goes to the
avenger, avengers me, and then I'm peaced for 7 hours for those 3 statuses,
which I got by defending myself in enemy territory. That's not even really his
area, he just defends it because he likes to influence it, and doesn't wan't me
to bash it (some vague south defends illi/north defens keph here). Now,
Malarious pretty much gets to hold the second vengeance over my head ("Stay out
of my illithoid or I'll peace you again"), I can't even touch the area while
he's around because I risk either getting vengeance again, or possibly dying to
him without being able to defend myself at all (or get more avengers). Wait no,
I have to be careful of -any- enemy area on prime now because of that, for a RL
month. He also holds the ability to peace me for some hours whenever he wants?
Don't want me in the next domoth fight? Peaced. Needs odds in your favor for
this raid? Peaced. So, I think the ability to gank someone in a hunting area,
and then peace them when you lose the fight is maybe, just a bit trollish, and
abusable. If I'm going to be attacked while I'm hunting, it's a fight to the
death for the most part (even though I didn't chase him when he ran fr
---[Anelissa on 1/8 @ 04:56 writes]:
From me the first time), so I shouldn't be punished if you initiate combat with
me. Apologies, my comment was a cut off
---[Xenthos on 1/8 @ 05:34 writes]:
I'm against changing Avenger mechanics-- any changes always have unintended
consequences. If you don't want to get Avengered, DO NOT TURN PK CAREFUL OFF.
That is why the command exists. Only turn it off if you want to be Avengered.
Making it instakill is fine, though.
---[Raeri on 1/8 @ 06:25 writes]:
Opposed. I agree with Xenthos, the system even warned you about turning it
off...
---[Sylvanas on 1/8 @ 18:58 writes]:
While I agree that Avenger warns you for a reason, I don't feel that being able
to relentlessly grief someone without recourse in a bashing zone is okay. While
I wouldn't say that Anelissa's situation is really griefing, the design flaw
exists and will inevitably be abused.
---[Falmiis on 1/8 @ 19:32 writes]:
I think there needs to be a separation between player org enemy territory and
denizen enemy territory. The current rules are fine for player org enemy
territory, for the fact that so many (especially higher end) Prime plane bashing
areas come with enemy statuses that mean you become open PK means the effective
pool of bashing areas, particularly for people who don't enjoy fighting, much
smaller. The worst part is that it's not even that the area is open PK. It's
that -you- are open PK and if you get attacked you can't even defend yourself
without having to consider the Avenger rules.
---[Sylvanas on 1/9 @ 01:31 writes]:
I believe that it might be best to exclude player controlled enemy territory.
(Prime cities/villages) from this.
---[Rolan on 1/12 @ 17:54 writes]:
I agree. The only place you should be open PK on Prime is places directly
controlled by an enemy city: the city proper, and villages owned by that city.
---[Sylvanas on 1/13 @ 04:10 writes]:
To specify sol 1: Avatar should kill you in one shot. Not changing the mechanic
of Avatar existing, just buffing its damage.
---[Shuyin on 1/14 @ 18:23 writes]:
1 only
---[Enyalida on 1/16 @ 21:05 writes]:
Failed ganks should penalize the ganker, not the victim. It doesn't make any
sense to punish a victim for turning the tables on someone who initiates combat
against them, in any area.
---[Malarious on 1/17 @ 19:13 writes]:
In terms of solution 2, I think we need to approach this another way. This
change would also mean you could not defend Sea of Despair as a mag, Inner sea
as Celestian, Illithoid, Kephera, etc all become undefendable by virtue of being
gankable if you try. I believe avenger causes declare on the other side to act
as though you DEFENDed the mobs in the area
---[Shedrin on 1/17 @ 21:32 writes]:
I don't see how that would be the case. It would just allow those being attacked
while in enemy territory to defend themselves.
---[Shedrin on 1/19 @ 17:32 writes]:
There are a lot of people voting to reject Solution 2 and I suspect there may be
confusion on exactly what will change with it. The simple explanation is this:
If a player is in (npc) enemy territory, they will be free to be attacked
without declaring or other restrictions (as is currently the case), however they
will also be able to strike back against their attacker without avenger (the
proposed change). They will not be able to initiate an attack on anyone not
enemied to the territory.
---[Malarious on 1/20 @ 15:13 writes]:
Side note: Could we change avenger to declare mutual declares if the target and
attacker are both enemied? This way you cannot be "defending", I do not know if
it does that presently or if just first person is the declarer.