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That's it. Gloria, G-L-O-R-I-A plus L. | that's, it gloria g-l-o-r-i-a plus | That's it. Gloria, G-L-O-R-I-A plus | that's it. gloria, g-l-o-r-i-a plus l. |
Gorilla. | gorilla. |
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That's good. Reload, R-E-L-O-A-D plus P, as in Peter. | that's good reload r-e-l-o-a-d, plus p as in | That's good Reload. R-E-L-O-A-D plus. P as in. | that's good. reload, r-e-l-o-a-d plus p, as in peter. |
Reload plus E, you said, right? | reload. plus e you said | Reload, plus E you said | reload plus e, you said, right? |
P. | p. |
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Plus P, as in Peter. | plus p as in | Plus P as in | plus p, as in peter. |
Oh, plus P. Reload plus P. | oh plus p reload. plus | Oh plus P Reload plus | oh, plus p. reload plus p. |
This is a spotted animal. | this is a spotted | This is a spotted | this is a spotted animal. |
Yes, it is. | yes it | Yes it | yes, it is. |
Hmm. | hmm. |
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A spotted feline. | a spotted | A spotted | a spotted feline. |
Oh, leopard, of course. | oh leopard of | Oh leopard of | oh, leopard, of course. |
Leopard is it. Heel tap. Heel tap, H-E-E-L T-A-P plus N, as in Nancy. | leopard is it heel. tap, heel tap h-e-e-l t-a-p plus n as in | Leopard is it Heel. tap Heel tap H-E-E-L T-A-P; plus. N as. in | leopard is it. heel tap. heel tap, h-e-e-l t-a-p plus n, as in nancy. |
Give me the spelling one more time. | give. me the spelling one more | Give me the spelling one. more, | give me the spelling one more time. |
Yeah, Heel tap, H-E-E-L T-A-P. | yeah heel tap h-e-e-l | Yeah Heel tap H-E-E-L | yeah, heel tap, h-e-e-l t-a-p. |
Heel tap. | heel | Heel | heel tap. |
Plus N, as in Nancy. And we're talking about a big animal. Might see it in a circus. | plus, n as. in nancy and we're talking about a big animal might see it in a | Plus N as in Nancy And we're talking about, a big animal Might; see it in a | plus n, as in nancy. and we're talking about a big animal. might see it in a circus. |
Oh, elephant. | oh | Oh | oh, elephant. |
Elephant is it. Needier, N-E-E-D-I-E-R plus R. | elephant is it needier n-e-e-d-i-e-r plus; | Elephant is it Needier N-E-E-D-I-E-R plus | elephant is it. needier, n-e-e-d-i-e-r plus r. |
This is Talk of the Nation. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. We live in a tell-all culture. Whether in a high-profile memoir like Scott McClellan's insider account of his time at the White House, in a magazine article, on a blog or in an email blast, many of us have moments that we get so angry at our colleagues and bosses we want to tell the world, blow the whistle, set the record straight, explain why we did it, whatever it was. | this is talk of. the nation i'm neal conan in washington we live in a tell-all, culture whether, in a high-profile memoir like scott mcclellan's insider account of his time at the white house in a magazine article on a, blog. or. in an email blast many of us have moments that we get so angry at. our colleagues and bosses we want to tell the world blow the. whistle set the record straight explain why we did it whatever it | This is Talk of the Nation I'm Neal Conan in Washington We live in a tell-all culture Whether. in a high-profile memoir. like Scott McClellan's insider account of his time at the. White House. in a magazine article on, a blog or in an email blast many, of, us have moments that we get so angry at our colleagues and bosses we want to tell the world blow the. whistle set the record straight explain why we did it whatever it | this is talk of the nation. i'm neal conan in washington. we live in a tell-all culture. whether in a high-profile memoir like scott mcclellan's insider account of his time at the white house, in a magazine article, on a blog or in an email blast, many of us have moments that we get so angry at our colleagues and bosses we want to tell the world, blow the whistle, set the record straight, explain why we did it, whatever it was. |
But what happens when you really do, do it and name names? Yesterday, Dan Bartlett, one of Scott McClellan's former bosses, said that the onetime Bush loyalist and press secretary had just lost all the friends he ever had. We're talking to people today who've told all about their work places, why they did it and about what happened afterwards. Their worlds happen to be politics and the military and private education, but what about you? | but what happens when you really, do do it and. name names? yesterday dan bartlett one of scott mcclellan's former, bosses said that, the onetime bush loyalist and press secretary had just lost all the friends he ever had we're talking to people today who've told all about their work places why they did it and about what happened afterwards their worlds happen to be politics and the military and private education but what about | But what happens when you really do, do it. and name names? Yesterday Dan Bartlett one of Scott McClellan's former bosses said that the onetime Bush loyalist and press secretary. had just lost all the friends he, ever had We're talking to people today, who've told all about their work places. why they did it and about what happened afterwards Their worlds. happen to be politics and the military and private education but what about | but what happens when you really do, do it and name names? yesterday, dan bartlett, one of scott mcclellan's former bosses, said that the onetime bush loyalist and press secretary had just lost all the friends he ever had. we're talking to people today who've told all about their work places, why they did it and about what happened afterwards. their worlds happen to be politics and the military and private education, but what about you? |
Have you ever written about your boss or the iniquities of the industry on a blog or in a first-person story? What did it cost in retrospect? Was it worth it? Our phone number is 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also comment on our blog. That's at npr.org/blogofthenation. Later in the program, how men can get out of taking their significant others to the ultimate chick flick this weekend. | have. you ever written about your boss or the iniquities of the industry on a blog or in a, first-person story? what did it cost in, retrospect? was it worth it? our phone number is 800-989-8255. email us talk@npr.org you can also comment on our blog that's at npr.org/blogofthenation later in the program. how, men, can get out of taking their significant others to the ultimate chick flick this | Have you ever written about your boss or the iniquities of the industry, on a blog or in a first-person story? What did. it cost in retrospect? Was it worth it? Our phone number is 800-989-8255. Email us talk@npr.org You can also comment on our blog That's at npr.org/blogofthenation Later in the program how men can get out of taking their significant others to the ultimate chick flick this | have you ever written about your boss or the iniquities of the industry on a blog or in a first-person story? what did it cost in retrospect? was it worth it? our phone number is 800-989-8255. email us, talk@npr.org. you can also comment on our blog. that's at npr.org/blogofthenation. later in the program, how men can get out of taking their significant others to the ultimate chick flick this weekend. |
But first, telling all and what happens later. Our first guest today is Allen Raymond. He's a former Republican insider. His tell all, "How to Rig an Election," chronicles his role in jamming phone banks in New Hampshire's 2002 Senate race, and he's with us here in Studio 3A, and thanks very much for coming in. | but first telling all and what happens later our first guest today is allen raymond he's a former republican insider his tell all "how to rig an election" chronicles his role in jamming phone banks in new hampshire's, 2002 senate race and. he's, with us here in, studio 3a and thanks very much for coming, | But, first. telling all and what happens later Our, first guest today is Allen Raymond He's a former Republican insider His tell all "How to Rig an Election" chronicles his role in jamming phone banks in New Hampshire's 2002 Senate, race and he's with us here in Studio 3A and thanks very much for coming | but first, telling all and what happens later. our first guest today is allen raymond. he's a former republican insider. his tell all, "how to rig an election," chronicles his role in jamming phone banks in new hampshire's 2002 senate race, and he's with us here in studio 3a, and thanks very much for coming in. |
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. | oh, you're welcome thanks for having | Oh you're welcome Thanks for having | oh, you're welcome. thanks for having me. |
And why did you write this? | and why did you write | And why. did you write | and why did you write this? |
Well, I wrote the book because I felt I had to, as a parent, as a father. I have two children, and I felt like what I had done wound up being a transgression of the law. I paid a very heavy price, and someday I was going to have to answer that to my children, as I'm going along and trying to teach them to be good citizens and good students and that type of thing. So I felt like this was the best way to put it on record, and so when they got older, they ask me any questions I could just hand them the book and then they could read it and come back and ask me some questions. So that's where my obligation came from. | well i wrote the. book because i felt i had to as a parent, as a father i have two children, and i felt like what i had done wound up being a transgression of the law i paid a very heavy price and someday i was going. to, have. to answer that to my children as i'm going along and trying to teach them to be good citizens and good students and that type of thing so i felt like this, was, the best way to put it on record and so when they got older they ask me any questions i could just hand them. the book and then they could read it and come back and ask me some questions so that's where my obligation came | Well I wrote the book because I. felt I had to as a parent as a father I have two children and I felt like what, I had done wound up being a transgression of the. law I paid a very heavy price and someday I was going to have to answer that to my. children as I'm going along and trying to teach. them. to be good citizens and; good students and that type; of thing So I felt like this was the best way to put it on record and. so when they got, older they ask me. any questions I could just hand them the book and then they could read it and come back and ask me some questions So that's where my obligation came | well, i wrote the book because i felt i had to, as a parent, as a father. i have two children, and i felt like what i had done wound up being a transgression of the law. i paid a very heavy price, and someday i was going to have to answer that to my children, as i'm going along and trying to teach them to be good citizens and good students and that type of thing. so i felt like this was the best way to put it on record, and so when they got older, they ask me any questions i could just hand them the book and then they could read it and come back and ask me some questions. so that's where my obligation came from. |
You could have told your children in a scrapbook or a privately - private document. You decided to publish a book. | you. could have told your children in a scrapbook or a privately. - private document you decided, to publish a | You could have told your children in a scrapbook or a privately - private document You decided to publish a | you could have told your children in a scrapbook or a privately - private document. you decided to publish a book. |
Well, then it evolved from there, and then I felt like, you know, there's some lessons to be learned here. There's some things I can contribute to the public domain that is worthwhile, and so for me it was bringing - there's an old quote by - a very well-known quote by Justice Brandeis which is, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and so I felt like here is a place - an opportunity for me to provide a little bit of sunlight, maybe disinfect the process a little bit and do my part for making up for my own transgressions. | well then it. evolved from there and then i felt like you know there's some lessons to be learned here there's some things i can contribute to the, public domain that is worthwhile and so for me it was bringing - there's an old quote by - a very well-known quote by justice brandeis which is sunlight; is the best disinfectant and so i, felt like here is a place - an opportunity for me to provide. a little bit of sunlight maybe disinfect the process a little bit and do my part for making up for my own | Well then it evolved from there and then I felt like you, know there's. some lessons to be learned here There's some things I can contribute to the public domain that is worthwhile and so for, me it was bringing - there's an old quote. by - a very well-known quote. by Justice. Brandeis which is sunlight is the, best disinfectant and, so, I felt like here is a place - an opportunity for me to provide a little bit of sunlight maybe disinfect the process a. little bit. and do my. part for making up for, my own | well, then it evolved from there, and then i felt like, you know, there's some lessons to be learned here. there's some things i can contribute to the public domain that is worthwhile, and so for me it was bringing - there's an old quote by - a very well-known quote by justice brandeis which is, sunlight is the best disinfectant, and so i felt like here is a place - an opportunity for me to provide a little bit of sunlight, maybe disinfect the process a little bit and do my part for making up for my own transgressions. |
And you also decided not to simply confess and explain what you had done but who told you to do it and who you were working with. | and you also. decided not to simply confess and explain what you had done but who told you to do it and who you. were working | And you also decided not to simply confess and explain what you. had done but who told you, to do, it and who you were; working | and you also decided not to simply confess and explain what you had done but who told you to do it and who you were working with. |
Well, that was very important. In fact, that's where I drew the line. Some people write tell-all books and that's where they draw their line. They decide, well, I'm going to - I need to disclose what happened. I actually drew the line when our government came and ask me what had actually happened. So, I felt, I'm not going to even consider being part of a cover up or consider being part of not having this disclosed. I was going to be fully transparent and candid, and so that's where I drew the line. | well that was very important in fact that's where i drew the line some people write tell-all books, and that's where they draw their line they; decide well. i'm going to - i need to disclose what happened i actually drew the line when. our government came and ask me what had actually. happened so i felt i'm not going to even consider being part of a cover up or consider being part, of not having this disclosed i was. going to be fully transparent and candid and so that's where i drew the | Well that was very important In fact, that's where I drew the line Some people write, tell-all books and that's where they draw their line They decide well I'm going, to - I. need to disclose what happened I actually drew the, line when our government came and, ask me. what had actually happened So I felt I'm not going; to even consider; being part of a cover up or consider. being part of not having this disclosed I was. going to be fully transparent. and candid and, so that's where I drew the | well, that was very important. in fact, that's where i drew the line. some people write tell-all books and that's where they draw their line. they decide, well, i'm going to - i need to disclose what happened. i actually drew the line when our government came and ask me what had actually happened. so, i felt, i'm not going to even consider being part of a cover up or consider being part of not having this disclosed. i was going to be fully transparent and candid, and so that's where i drew the line. |
Yet, I guess, there are prices to any of those decisions. What - book was not published all that long ago, but so, far what's been the fallout? | yet i guess there are. prices to any. of those decisions what - book was not published all that long ago but so far what's been the | Yet I guess there are, prices to any of those decisions What - book was not published. all that long ago but so far what's been the | yet, i guess, there are prices to any of those decisions. what - book was not published all that long ago, but so, far what's been the fallout? |
Well, on a personal level, there's maybe one or two people I knew from politics who won't have anything to do with me. To everybody else I'm a turncoat. To everybody else, I should have fallen on my sword, taken full responsibility, and those are the folks who are still vested. This is - look, politics is a business. | well on a personal level there's maybe one or two people i knew, from politics who won't have anything to do with me to everybody. else i'm a turncoat to everybody else i should have fallen on my sword taken full responsibility and those. are the folks who are, still vested, this is, - look, politics is a | Well on a personal level there's maybe one or two people I. knew from, politics who, won't have anything to do with me To everybody else I'm a turncoat To everybody else I should have fallen on my sword taken full responsibility and those are the folks who are still vested This is, - look politics is a | well, on a personal level, there's maybe one or two people i knew from politics who won't have anything to do with me. to everybody else i'm a turncoat. to everybody else, i should have fallen on my sword, taken full responsibility, and those are the folks who are still vested. this is - look, politics is a business. |
So, the folks who are still in the game, in the profession, are certainly going to point to people like me and say, you know, those are the anomalies. These are bad people. They are motivated by greed. But the truth of the matter is, for instance, you mentioned Scott McClellan, if he was truly motivated by greed, he could make far more money working within the system and keeping his mouth closed than he could by publishing with public affairs. | so the folks who are still in the game in the profession are certainly going to point to; people like me and say. you know those are the anomalies these are bad. people they are motivated by greed but the, truth of the matter is for instance you mentioned scott mcclellan if he; was truly motivated by greed. he could make far more money working within the system and keeping his, mouth closed than he could by publishing, with public | So the folks who are still in the game in the profession are certainly going to point to people like me and say you know those are the anomalies. These are bad people They are motivated by greed But the truth of the matter is for instance you mentioned Scott McClellan if he. was truly motivated, by greed he could. make far more money working within. the system and keeping his mouth closed than he could by, publishing with public | so, the folks who are still in the game, in the profession, are certainly going to point to people like me and say, you know, those are the anomalies. these are bad people. they are motivated by greed. but the truth of the matter is, for instance, you mentioned scott mcclellan, if he was truly motivated by greed, he could make far more money working within the system and keeping his mouth closed than he could by publishing with public affairs. |
And presumably, the same would have gone for you, too, if you'd a been a good soldier. | and presumably the same would have gone for you; too if you'd a been a good | And presumably the same would have gone, for, you too if you'd a been a good | and presumably, the same would have gone for you, too, if you'd a been a good soldier. |
Probably I could - imagine I could have come back and made my - made inroads back into the party, but at that point, the way that things had gone for me, I just didn't have any interest in it. I didn't want to be a Republican. I didn't want to work in Republican politics anymore. So for me, it was a very easy choice, because I had - well, I felt, one, the obligation and two, it's kind of like that old saying, why would I want to be a member of this country club type of thing? | probably i could - imagine, i could have come back and made my - made, inroads back into the party but, at that point the way that things had gone, for me i just. didn't have any interest in it i didn't want to be a republican i didn't want. to work in republican politics, anymore so for me it was a very easy choice because i had - well i felt one. the obligation, and two it's kind of like that, old saying why would i want to. be a member of this country club type of | Probably I could - imagine I could have come back and made my - made inroads back into the party but at that point the way that things had gone for me I just didn't have any interest in it I didn't want to, be a Republican I, didn't want, to work in Republican politics anymore So for me it was a very, easy, choice. because I had - well I felt one the obligation and two it's kind of like that old saying why would I want to be a member of this, country club type of | probably i could - imagine i could have come back and made my - made inroads back into the party, but at that point, the way that things had gone for me, i just didn't have any interest in it. i didn't want to be a republican. i didn't want to work in republican politics anymore. so for me, it was a very easy choice, because i had - well, i felt, one, the obligation and two, it's kind of like that old saying, why would i want to be a member of this country club type of thing? |
And in retrospect, well, you did the crime, you did the time, and now you've explained why to your children and to the American public and anybody who wants to go and buy a copy of your book. Was it worth it? | and in retrospect well you did the crime you did the time and now. you've explained why to your children and to the american public and anybody who wants to go. and buy a copy of your book was it worth | And in retrospect well you. did the crime you did the. time and now you've explained why. to your children and to the, American public and anybody who wants to go, and buy a copy of your; book Was it worth | and in retrospect, well, you did the crime, you did the time, and now you've explained why to your children and to the american public and anybody who wants to go and buy a copy of your book. was it worth it? |
Writing the book? | writing the | Writing the | writing the book? |
Yeah. | yeah. |
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Ah! There we go. We just got - we just broke through. So, you're on the air now. And thanks very much for coming in. | ah! there we go we just got - we just broke through so you're on the air now and thanks very much, for coming | Ah! There. we go We just got - we just, broke through So you're, on the air now And thanks very much for coming | ah! there we go. we just got - we just broke through. so, you're on the air now. and thanks very much for coming in. |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: No worries, sir. Thanks. | lt col sassaman: no worries sir | Lt Col SASSAMAN: No worries sir. | lt. col. sassaman: no worries, sir. thanks. |
You're a West Point graduate. You served in the Army almost 20 years, I guess. It must have been difficult to write a book that criticizes the military. | you're a west point graduate you served in the army almost 20 years, i guess it, must have been difficult, to write a book that criticizes the | You're a West Point graduate; You served in the Army almost 20 years I; guess It must have been difficult to write a book that criticizes the | you're a west point graduate. you served in the army almost 20 years, i guess. it must have been difficult to write a book that criticizes the military. |
And they're talking - there's about 30,000 American forces there now. They're talking about doubling it. Do you think that's going to be in the ballpark? | and they're talking - there's about 30,000 american forces there now they're talking about doubling it do you think that's going to be in the | And they're talking - there's about 30,000 American forces there now They're talking about doubling it Do you think that's going to be in the | and they're talking - there's about 30,000 american forces there now. they're talking about doubling it. do you think that's going to be in the ballpark? |
Very much so, because I got to put on paper and then distribute to the public at large how this - how politics works. I got the opportunity, like, for instance, today, to talk about the fact that politics is a business, what people should be looking for through the election season. It's a business, very high stakes, lot of power, lot of money at stake, and a lot of people are going to be up to no good. And so I felt like this is an opportunity to, again, pull the curtain back, and say, this is how the process works, educate the reader, who is also a voter, so that they could understand the process as they, themselves, went through it and had to make their own choices. | very much so because i got to put on paper and then distribute to. the public at large how this - how politics works i got the opportunity like for instance today to talk, about the fact that politics is a business what people should be looking for through the election; season it's a. business very high stakes lot of power lot of, money at stake and a lot of people are going to be up to no good and so i felt like this is an opportunity to again, pull the curtain back and say this is how the process works educate. the reader, who is also a voter so. that they could understand the process as; they themselves went, through it and had to make their own | Very much so because I got to put on paper and then distribute to the public. at large how this - how. politics works I got. the opportunity like for instance today to talk about the fact that. politics is a business. what people should be looking for through the election season It's a business very high stakes, lot of power lot of money at stake and a lot of; people are going to be up to no good And so I felt like, this is an opportunity to again pull the curtain back and say this. is how the process works educate the reader who is also a voter so that they could understand the process. as they themselves went through it and had to make their own, | very much so, because i got to put on paper and then distribute to the public at large how this - how politics works. i got the opportunity, like, for instance, today, to talk about the fact that politics is a business, what people should be looking for through the election season. it's a business, very high stakes, lot of power, lot of money at stake, and a lot of people are going to be up to no good. and so i felt like this is an opportunity to, again, pull the curtain back, and say, this is how the process works, educate the reader, who is also a voter, so that they could understand the process as they, themselves, went through it and had to make their own choices. |
And in the process of writing a book, doesn't that make you a little bit more reflective about what you did? I mean, your decisions were made in the moment. They presumably weren't the result of great, great, you know, sitting around for several hours a day in front of a computer screen. When you see the words on paper, it's different, isn't it? | and in the process, of writing a book. doesn't that make you a little. bit more reflective about what you did? i mean your decisions, were made in the moment they, presumably weren't the result. of great great you know, sitting around for several hours a day in front of a computer screen, when you see the. words on paper it's. different isn't | And in the process of writing a book, doesn't that make you a little bit more reflective, about what you did? I mean your decisions were made in the; moment. They presumably weren't the result of great great; you know sitting, around for several hours a day in front of a computer. screen, When you. see the, words on paper it's. different isn't | and in the process of writing a book, doesn't that make you a little bit more reflective about what you did? i mean, your decisions were made in the moment. they presumably weren't the result of great, great, you know, sitting around for several hours a day in front of a computer screen. when you see the words on paper, it's different, isn't it? |
It's completely different when you have to put the words - I mean, the process itself of putting the words on paper demand some self-examination, some reflection. You're right. These decisions get made on the fly, very quickly, and often in the context of winning and usually winning at all costs. So the process of going through writing the book, you're right, is very reflective, and from that, enriches it and actually makes it - gives it its true value. | it's completely different when you have to put the words - i mean the process. itself of putting the words on paper demand some self-examination some reflection. you're right these decisions get made on the fly very quickly and often in the context, of winning and usually winning at all. costs so the process of going through writing the. book you're right is very reflective and from that enriches it and actually makes it - gives it its true, | It's completely different when you have to put the words - I mean the process, itself of putting; the words on paper demand some self-examination some reflection You're right These decisions get made on the fly very quickly and often. in the context, of winning and usually winning. at all costs So the process of going through writing the book. you're right is very reflective, and from that enriches it and actually makes, it - gives it its true | it's completely different when you have to put the words - i mean, the process itself of putting the words on paper demand some self-examination, some reflection. you're right. these decisions get made on the fly, very quickly, and often in the context of winning and usually winning at all costs. so the process of going through writing the book, you're right, is very reflective, and from that, enriches it and actually makes it - gives it its true value. |
And I wonder - one other question. Working with an editor on your book, was their already pressure to say, oh, come on, didn't you get a call from the president himself about this? | and i wonder, - one other question working with, an editor on your book, was their already pressure. to say oh come on didn't you get a call from the. president himself about. | And I wonder - one other question Working with an editor on your book was their already pressure to say oh come on didn't you get, a call from the president himself about. | and i wonder - one other question. working with an editor on your book, was their already pressure to say, oh, come on, didn't you get a call from the president himself about this? |
You know, there's always that pressure, but that's the pressure of making sure that, if you are going to do this, you might as well do this right. Do it right. Do it right the first time. Don't hold back. And I think that, again, actually, my compliments to Scott McClellan. I think that he's been labeled a disgruntled former employee. I'd just say he's a disgruntled American, and he's actually - maybe it's a little bit too late, some people might say, but I commend him for the courage of doing what he's done because I've gone through that process myself. | you know. there's always that pressure. but that's the. pressure of making sure that if you are going to do this you might as; well do this right do it right do it right the first; time don't hold back and i, think that again actually my compliments to. scott mcclellan i think. that he's been labeled. a disgruntled, former employee i'd, just say he's, a disgruntled american and he's actually - maybe it's a little bit too late some people might say but i commend him for the courage of doing. what, he's, done because i've gone through that process | You know there's always, that pressure but, that's the pressure of making sure that if you are, going to do this you might; as well do this right Do it right Do it right the first time Don't, hold back And I think that again actually my. compliments. to Scott McClellan I think that he's been labeled a disgruntled former employee I'd just, say he's. a disgruntled American and he's actually - maybe it's. a little. bit too late some people might say but I commend him. for the courage of doing what he's done because I've gone through, that process | you know, there's always that pressure, but that's the pressure of making sure that, if you are going to do this, you might as well do this right. do it right. do it right the first time. don't hold back. and i think that, again, actually, my compliments to scott mcclellan. i think that he's been labeled a disgruntled former employee. i'd just say he's a disgruntled american, and he's actually - maybe it's a little bit too late, some people might say, but i commend him for the courage of doing what he's done because i've gone through that process myself. |
Let's get Francis on the line, Francis is calling us from Mount Shasta in California. | let's get francis; on the line francis is calling us from mount shasta in. | Let's get Francis on the, line Francis is calling us from Mount Shasta. in | let's get francis on the line, francis is calling us from mount shasta in california. |
Good morning. | good | Good | good morning. |
Good morning. | good | Good | good morning. |
Well, I blew the whistle on the U.S. Forest Service for logging spotted owl groves in violation of Endangered Species Act. | well, i blew the. whistle on the u.s forest service for logging spotted, owl groves in violation of endangered species | Well, I. blew the whistle on the U.S Forest Service for. logging spotted owl groves, in violation of Endangered Species | well, i blew the whistle on the u.s. forest service for logging spotted owl groves in violation of endangered species act. |
And what happened? | and what | And what. | and what happened? |
Well, they - first they tried to fire me. Then they tried to discredit me. Then they tried to debunk me. Then they tried to deny me. And the Government Accountability Project lawyers took on my case and saved me. | well they - first they tried to fire me then they tried to discredit me then they tried to debunk me then they tried. to deny me and the government accountability project lawyers took on my case and, saved. | Well they, - first they tried to fire; me Then they tried, to discredit me Then they tried to debunk me Then they tried to deny me And, the Government Accountability Project lawyers. took on my case and saved | well, they - first they tried to fire me. then they tried to discredit me. then they tried to debunk me. then they tried to deny me. and the government accountability project lawyers took on my case and saved me. |
And save you. Saved your job? | and save you saved your | And, save you Saved your | and save you. saved your job? |
Um, temporarily. I was eventually forced to retire. | um temporarily, i was eventually forced. to, | Um temporarily I was eventually forced to | um, temporarily. i was eventually forced to retire. |
And... | and... |
||
I just retired recently, after exposing a case where they were getting legalized kickbacks in order to log those places where they shouldn't be logging. | i just retired recently after. exposing a case where they were getting legalized kickbacks in order to log those places where they shouldn't be | I; just retired recently after exposing a, case where they were getting legalized kickbacks in order to log those places where they shouldn't be | i just retired recently, after exposing a case where they were getting legalized kickbacks in order to log those places where they shouldn't be logging. |
Nevertheless, even keeping your job, it must have been extremely uncomfortable at work. | nevertheless. even keeping your job it must. have been extremely uncomfortable at | Nevertheless even keeping your job it must have been extremely, uncomfortable at | nevertheless, even keeping your job, it must have been extremely uncomfortable at work. |
Oh, "uncomfortable" is hardly the word for it. I had lots of health damages and was socially ostracized within the organization. | oh "uncomfortable" is hardly the word for it i had lots of health damages and was socially ostracized within the | Oh "uncomfortable" is hardly the word for it I had lots of health, damages and was socially ostracized within the | oh, "uncomfortable" is hardly the word for it. i had lots of health damages and was socially ostracized within the organization. |
And do you think what you did made it worth it? | and do you think what you did, made it worth | And do. you think what you did made it worth | and do you think what you did made it worth it? |
Ah, well, considering my health damage and the death threats that I got from within the Forest Service for doing that, I don't think it was really worth it when I look back on it. But it did expose a lot of the stuff that was going on. | ah well considering my health, damage and the death threats that i got from within the forest service for doing that, i don't think it was really worth it when i look back on, it but it did expose a lot of the stuff that was going | Ah well considering my health damage and the death threats that I got from within the Forest Service for doing that I don't think it was really worth it. when. I look back on, it But it, did expose. a lot of the stuff that was going | ah, well, considering my health damage and the death threats that i got from within the forest service for doing that, i don't think it was really worth it when i look back on it. but it did expose a lot of the stuff that was going on. |
And are you going to be able to make a living in your chosen profession from now on? | and are you going to be able to make a living in. your, chosen profession from now | And are you going to be able to make a living, in your chosen profession from now | and are you going to be able to make a living in your chosen profession from now on? |
No, I've got 35 years in, so I've retired and I've got a pension. They can't touch me now. | no i've got 35 years in so i've retired, and; i've got a pension they can't. touch me | No I've got 35 years in so I've retired and I've got a; pension They. can't touch me | no, i've got 35 years in, so i've retired and i've got a pension. they can't touch me now. |
Well, good luck to you. Thanks for the phone call, Francis. | well good luck to you thanks for. the phone call, | Well good luck to, you Thanks for the phone call | well, good luck to you. thanks for the phone call, francis. |
You're welcome. | you're | You're | you're welcome. |
And I guess that same question to you, Allen Raymond. Do you see yourself returning to politics in the future? Are those bridges burned forever? | and i guess that same question to you allen raymond do you see yourself returning to politics in the future? are those, bridges burned | And I guess that same question to you Allen Raymond. Do you see yourself returning to politics, in the future? Are those bridges burned | and i guess that same question to you, allen raymond. do you see yourself returning to politics in the future? are those bridges burned forever? |
Those bridges are burned forever, and I'm very comfortable with that. There's actually some satisfaction, in my instance, of being able to be the vehicle, the instrument, by which some of this disclosure has gone on. I found some satisfaction in that. And so I don't want to go back to politics. | those bridges. are burned forever and i'm very comfortable with that there's actually some satisfaction in, my instance of being able to be the vehicle the instrument by which some of this disclosure has gone on i found some satisfaction in that and so i don't want to go back to | Those bridges are burned forever and I'm very comfortable with that There's actually some satisfaction in my instance of being able. to be the vehicle the instrument by which some of, this. disclosure has gone on I found some; satisfaction, in that And so I don't want to go back to | those bridges are burned forever, and i'm very comfortable with that. there's actually some satisfaction, in my instance, of being able to be the vehicle, the instrument, by which some of this disclosure has gone on. i found some satisfaction in that. and so i don't want to go back to politics. |
It is a tough business, and not to say that everyone in politics is bad. There's not - they're not. I mean, there's - many folks would never do many of the things that I did recurrently throughout my career. But having said that, you know, I have no interest in - it is true. You do - when the chips are down, you find out who your friends are. And that's - in itself, there's some value there, too. | it is a tough. business and not to say that. everyone in politics is bad there's not - they're not i mean there's - many folks would never do, many of the things that i did recurrently throughout my career but having, said that you know i have no interest in - it is true you do - when the chips are down you find out who your friends are and that's - in itself there's some value there | It is a tough business and not to say, that everyone in politics is bad There's not, - they're not I mean there's - many folks would never do many of the things that, I did, recurrently throughout my, career But having said that you, know I have no interest in - it is, true You do - when the chips; are down you find out who your friends are And that's - in itself there's some value there | it is a tough business, and not to say that everyone in politics is bad. there's not - they're not. i mean, there's - many folks would never do many of the things that i did recurrently throughout my career. but having said that, you know, i have no interest in - it is true. you do - when the chips are down, you find out who your friends are. and that's - in itself, there's some value there, too. |
Allen Raymond, thanks very much for coming in today. | allen raymond thanks very much for coming in | Allen Raymond thanks very much, for coming in | allen raymond, thanks very much for coming in today. |
Well, you're - thank you. You're welcome. | well you're - thank you you're, | Well you're - thank you You're | well, you're - thank you. you're welcome. |
Allen Raymond, a former Republican insider, the author of "How to Rig an Election." He was kind enough to come in today to Studio 3A. Nathan Sassaman was a celebrated officer in the U.S. military from 2003 to 2004. He led more than 800 soldiers in the Sunni Triangle in Iraq. But his military career all but ended when he was reprimanded after he covered up the actions of two of his soldiers who forced two Iraqis to jump into the Tigris River. One of them allegedly drowned. | allen. raymond a former republican insider the author of "how to rig an election" he was kind. enough to come in today to studio 3a nathan sassaman was a celebrated officer in, the u.s military from 2003 to 2004. he led more than 800 soldiers in the, sunni triangle in iraq but his military career all but ended when he was reprimanded after he. covered up the actions of two of his soldiers who forced two iraqis. to jump into the tigris river one of them allegedly | Allen Raymond a former Republican insider, the. author of "How to Rig an Election" He was; kind enough to come in today to Studio 3A Nathan Sassaman was a; celebrated officer in the U.S military from 2003 to 2004. He led more than 800 soldiers in the Sunni Triangle in Iraq But his, military career all. but ended. when he was reprimanded, after he. covered up the actions of two of his soldiers who forced. two Iraqis to jump into the. Tigris River. One. of them allegedly | allen raymond, a former republican insider, the author of "how to rig an election." he was kind enough to come in today to studio 3a. nathan sassaman was a celebrated officer in the u.s. military from 2003 to 2004. he led more than 800 soldiers in the sunni triangle in iraq. but his military career all but ended when he was reprimanded after he covered up the actions of two of his soldiers who forced two iraqis to jump into the tigris river. one of them allegedly drowned. |
After he retired from the military in 2005, he, along with co-author Joe Layden, wrote a memoir called "Warrior King: The Trial and Betrayal of an American Commander in Iraq," and he joins us now from Pan Studios in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And nice to have you on the program today. | after he retired from the military in 2005, he along with co-author joe layden wrote a memoir called "warrior king: the trial and betrayal of an american commander in iraq" and he joins us now from pan studios. in colorado springs colorado and nice to have you on the program | After he retired from the military in 2005, he along with co-author Joe Layden wrote a memoir called "Warrior King: The Trial and Betrayal of an American Commander in Iraq" and he joins us now from Pan Studios in Colorado Springs Colorado And nice to have you on the program | after he retired from the military in 2005, he, along with co-author joe layden, wrote a memoir called "warrior king: the trial and betrayal of an american commander in iraq," and he joins us now from pan studios in colorado springs, colorado. and nice to have you on the program today. |
And they did. | and they | And they | and they did. |
(Soundbite of laughter) | (soundbite of | (Soundbite of | (soundbite of laughter) |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Yes, sir. And it's not like the entire book is a criticism of the military, and I never wanted to be portrayed as one of those persons that work in an organization for 20 years, you know, and then turn on it. I just felt like there's just an obligation for someone that was, you know, on the battlefield, leading soldiers in combat, to kind of lay out the good, the bad and the ugly, in hope that it will help future leaders, specifically, you know, platoon leaders on the ground, to survive the first contact in the fight. | lt col sassaman: yes sir and it's not like the entire book; is a criticism. of the military and i never wanted to be portrayed as one of those persons that, work in an organization for 20 years you know and then turn on it i just felt like there's just, an obligation for someone that. was you know on the battlefield. leading soldiers in combat to, kind. of lay out the good the, bad and the ugly in hope that it will, help future leaders specifically you know platoon leaders on the ground to survive the first contact in the, | Lt Col, SASSAMAN: Yes sir, And it's not, like the entire book is a criticism, of the military and I never wanted to. be portrayed as one of those persons that work in an organization for 20 years you know and then turn on it I just felt like there's just an obligation for someone that was you. know on the battlefield leading soldiers; in combat to kind of lay out the good the bad and the ugly in, hope that it will help future leaders specifically you know platoon leaders on the ground to survive the first, contact in the | lt. col. sassaman: yes, sir. and it's not like the entire book is a criticism of the military, and i never wanted to be portrayed as one of those persons that work in an organization for 20 years, you know, and then turn on it. i just felt like there's just an obligation for someone that was, you know, on the battlefield, leading soldiers in combat, to kind of lay out the good, the bad and the ugly, in hope that it will help future leaders, specifically, you know, platoon leaders on the ground, to survive the first contact in the fight. |
And that's why you decided to write it? To instruct future generations of soldiers? | and that's why you decided to write it? to instruct future generations of | And that's. why you decided to write it? To instruct future generations of | and that's why you decided to write it? to instruct future generations of soldiers? |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Well, I took quite a bit of criticism, and became somewhat a persona non grata for my final year in the military once we returned from Iraq, and there was a lot of things written about me. And I think, like your first guest, I felt like I had an, you know, an obligation originally to write something for my family and friends, but then it evolved into something much larger. | lt col sassaman: well i took quite a bit of criticism and became somewhat a, persona non grata for my final year in the military once we returned. from iraq and there was a, lot of. things written about me and i think like your. first guest i felt like i had, an you know an obligation originally. to write, something for. my family and, friends but then it evolved. into something much | Lt Col SASSAMAN: Well I took quite a bit of criticism and became somewhat a persona non grata for, my final year in the military once we returned from Iraq and there was. a lot of things written about me And, I think like your first guest I felt, like I had an you know an obligation originally to write something for my family and friends but then it evolved into something much | lt. col. sassaman: well, i took quite a bit of criticism, and became somewhat a persona non grata for my final year in the military once we returned from iraq, and there was a lot of things written about me. and i think, like your first guest, i felt like i had an, you know, an obligation originally to write something for my family and friends, but then it evolved into something much larger. |
I received encouragement from general officers, and senior military officers, to really have a social and moral obligation to lay out, you know, the decisions that were being made above me, and how, you know, poor decision-making and cowardly actions are unacceptable, and those leaders should be held accountable. | i received encouragement from general officers and senior military officers to really have a social; and moral obligation to lay out you, know. the decisions that were being. made. above me and how you know poor decision-making and cowardly actions are unacceptable and those leaders should be held | I received, encouragement from general officers and senior military officers to really. have a social and moral obligation to lay out you know the decisions that were being made above me and how you know poor decision-making and cowardly actions are unacceptable and those leaders should be held | i received encouragement from general officers, and senior military officers, to really have a social and moral obligation to lay out, you know, the decisions that were being made above me, and how, you know, poor decision-making and cowardly actions are unacceptable, and those leaders should be held accountable. |
Stay with us, if you would, Nathan Sassaman. We'll take calls after a short break. 800-989-8255 is the phone number. Email is talk@npr.org. Have you ever named names about your colleagues at work? And was it worth it? I'm Neal Conan. Stay with us. It's the Talk of the Nation from NPR News. | stay, with us if you would, nathan sassaman we'll take calls after a short break 800-989-8255 is the phone number email is talk@npr.org have you ever named names about your colleagues at work? and was it worth it? i'm neal conan stay with, us it's the talk of. the nation from npr | Stay with us if you would Nathan Sassaman We'll take calls after a short break 800-989-8255 is the phone. number Email is talk@npr.org Have you ever named names about your colleagues at work? And was it. worth it? I'm Neal Conan Stay with us It's the Talk of the Nation from NPR | stay with us, if you would, nathan sassaman. we'll take calls after a short break. 800-989-8255 is the phone number. email is talk@npr.org. have you ever named names about your colleagues at work? and was it worth it? i'm neal conan. stay with us. it's the talk of the nation from npr news. |
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This is Talk of the Nation. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. We're talking today about the price of the tell-all memoir. Scott McClellan's costs 27 dollars and 95 cents. It cost him a lot of his friends, too. In our show-all, tell-all culture, the shelves are lined with memoirs, apologies, and exposes. His is hardly the first. Our guest right now is Nathan Sassaman. His memoir is called "Warrior King: The Trial and Betrayal of an American Commander in Iraq." | this. is talk of the nation i'm neal conan in washington we're talking today about the price of the tell-all memoir scott mcclellan's costs 27 dollars and 95 cents it cost him a. lot of his, friends too in our show-all tell-all culture the shelves are lined with memoirs apologies and exposes his is hardly the first our guest right now is nathan sassaman his memoir is called "warrior king: the trial, and betrayal of an american commander in | This is Talk of the Nation I'm Neal Conan in Washington We're talking today about the price of the, tell-all memoir Scott McClellan's costs 27 dollars and 95 cents It cost him a lot of his. friends too In our show-all tell-all. culture the shelves are lined with memoirs apologies and exposes His is hardly the first Our guest right now is Nathan Sassaman His. memoir is called "Warrior King: The Trial and. Betrayal of an American, Commander in | this is talk of the nation. i'm neal conan in washington. we're talking today about the price of the tell-all memoir. scott mcclellan's costs 27 dollars and 95 cents. it cost him a lot of his friends, too. in our show-all, tell-all culture, the shelves are lined with memoirs, apologies, and exposes. his is hardly the first. our guest right now is nathan sassaman. his memoir is called "warrior king: the trial and betrayal of an american commander in iraq." |
We want to hear from you. Have you ever written about your boss, your colleagues, on a blog, or in a first-person story? What did it cost? And was it worth it? 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org, and you can also share your story on our blog at npr.org/blogofthenation. And Nathan Sassaman, let me ask you, you'd already been reprimanded for your actions in Iraq, which meant effectively your career was over. You'd already resigned from the military. Has there been an additional price, do you think, to then writing about this in a book that named names? | we want to hear, from you have you ever written about your boss your colleagues on, a blog or in a first-person story? what did, it cost? and was, it worth it? 800-989-8255. email us talk@npr.org and you can also share your story on our blog at npr.org/blogofthenation and nathan sassaman let, me ask you you'd already been reprimanded for your actions in iraq which; meant effectively your career was over, you'd already resigned from the military has there been an additional price. do you think to then writing about this in a book that named | We want to hear from you. Have you ever written. about your boss your colleagues, on a blog or in a first-person story? What did it cost? And. was it worth it? 800-989-8255. Email us talk@npr.org and you can also share your story on our blog at. npr.org/blogofthenation And, Nathan Sassaman let, me ask you you'd already been reprimanded for. your actions in Iraq which meant. effectively your career was over, You'd already resigned from the military Has there been, an additional. price do you think to then writing about this in a book that named | we want to hear from you. have you ever written about your boss, your colleagues, on a blog, or in a first-person story? what did it cost? and was it worth it? 800-989-8255. email us, talk@npr.org, and you can also share your story on our blog at npr.org/blogofthenation. and nathan sassaman, let me ask you, you'd already been reprimanded for your actions in iraq, which meant effectively your career was over. you'd already resigned from the military. has there been an additional price, do you think, to then writing about this in a book that named names? |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Well, I think the price is that you try and honor those that you've served with, and you feel like you're telling a story to honor folks, and different people see the book from different perspectives. And I think there are some unrelated consequences that you, you know, you write something very good about someone, you try and honor them, but family members, or the person themselves, feel like you've degraded them, you know, and are very upset about it. And then I think there's the flip side. Folks that you think may be very angry with some of the things you've said turn out to be OK with it, and so, I think there are some unintended consequences that happen because of that. | lt col. sassaman: well i. think the price is that you try and honor those. that you've served with and you, feel like you're. telling a. story to honor, folks, and different people see the book from different perspectives; and i think there are some unrelated consequences that you you know you, write something very good about someone you try and honor them but family members or the person themselves feel like you've degraded them you know and, are very upset about it, and then i, think there's the flip side folks that you think may be very. angry with some of the things, you've said turn out to be ok with it and so i, think there; are some unintended consequences that happen because of | Lt Col SASSAMAN: Well. I think the price is that you try and honor those that you've served. with and you feel like you're telling. a story to honor folks and, different people see the book from different perspectives And I think there are some unrelated consequences that you, you know; you write, something very good about someone you try and honor them but family members or the person themselves feel like you've degraded them you know and are very upset about it And then I think there's the flip side, Folks that you think, may be very, angry with some of the things you've said turn out to be OK with it and so I think there are some unintended consequences, that happen because of | lt. col. sassaman: well, i think the price is that you try and honor those that you've served with, and you feel like you're telling a story to honor folks, and different people see the book from different perspectives. and i think there are some unrelated consequences that you, you know, you write something very good about someone, you try and honor them, but family members, or the person themselves, feel like you've degraded them, you know, and are very upset about it. and then i think there's the flip side. folks that you think may be very angry with some of the things you've said turn out to be ok with it, and so, i think there are some unintended consequences that happen because of that. |
I wonder, did it - again, you were in the moment under incredible stress during your year in Iraq. As you sat down at a typewriter, or I guess, a word processor, and went through this... | i wonder did it - again you were in the moment under, incredible. stress during your year in iraq as you sat down at a typewriter or i guess a word processor and went through | I wonder did it - again you were in the moment under incredible stress during your year in Iraq As you sat down at a typewriter or, I guess a word processor and went through | i wonder, did it - again, you were in the moment under incredible stress during your year in iraq. as you sat down at a typewriter, or i guess, a word processor, and went through this... |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Right. | lt col | Lt, Col | lt. col. sassaman: right. |
Did it look different? | did it look | Did it look | did it look different? |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Well, initially, the initial chapters, and the initial drafts, were very angry, and you know, you're just getting everything out. You're right. I was in the moment, lives were hanging in the balance, and as a ground commander who understood the context of the environment, I was doing the very best I could to accomplish the mission and save the men and women that I was, you know, charged with taking care of. | lt col sassaman: well initially the initial, chapters, and the initial drafts were very angry and you know you're. just getting everything out you're right i was in the moment lives were hanging in the balance and as a ground commander who understood the context. of the environment. i was doing the very best i could to accomplish the mission and save the men and women that i was you know charged with taking care | Lt Col SASSAMAN: Well. initially the initial chapters and the initial drafts were very angry, and you know you're just getting everything out You're right, I was in the moment lives were hanging in the balance and as a ground commander who understood the context of the environment I was doing the very best, I could to, accomplish the mission and save the men and women that I was, you know charged with, taking care | lt. col. sassaman: well, initially, the initial chapters, and the initial drafts, were very angry, and you know, you're just getting everything out. you're right. i was in the moment, lives were hanging in the balance, and as a ground commander who understood the context of the environment, i was doing the very best i could to accomplish the mission and save the men and women that i was, you know, charged with taking care of. |
And so, there were very, very practical reasons why I differed from my immediate boss on how to handle situations, and to make decisions in the heat of the moment. I think, upon reflection, there is times when you wish things had gone a little differently. And I'm certainly - I feel that way. But when you're - when lives are in the balance, there's no time for retrospect. You have to make the decision, move on. | and so there were very very practical reasons why i differed from, my immediate boss on how to handle situations and, to make, decisions in the heat of, the moment i think upon reflection there is times when you wish, things had, gone a little differently and i'm. certainly - i. feel that way but when you're - when lives are in, the balance there's no time for retrospect you have to, make the decision move | And so, there were very very practical reasons why I. differed, from my immediate boss on how to. handle situations and to make decisions. in, the heat of the moment I think upon reflection there, is times when you wish things had gone; a little differently And I'm certainly - I feel that way But when you're - when lives are in the balance, there's no time for retrospect You have. to make the decision; move | and so, there were very, very practical reasons why i differed from my immediate boss on how to handle situations, and to make decisions in the heat of the moment. i think, upon reflection, there is times when you wish things had gone a little differently. and i'm certainly - i feel that way. but when you're - when lives are in the balance, there's no time for retrospect. you have to make the decision, move on. |
And have to make the decision, and anybody who's ever been under any stressful decision-making circumstances understands, you're going to be wrong. Some of the time, you're going to be wrong. Nobody bats a thousand. | and have to make, the decision and anybody who's ever been under any stressful decision-making circumstances understands you're going to be wrong some of the time you're going to be wrong nobody bats a | And have to make the decision and anybody who's ever been under any stressful decision-making circumstances understands you're going to be wrong Some of the time you're going to be wrong Nobody bats a | and have to make the decision, and anybody who's ever been under any stressful decision-making circumstances understands, you're going to be wrong. some of the time, you're going to be wrong. nobody bats a thousand. |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Right, and you'd hope that it's not a zero-defect environment. But you know, in the case of the military, and the traditions and just how the beliefs are set up, you know, I stood up for the beliefs, I disagreed with my superior officers on how a number of situations should have been handled, and I paid the price for that. | lt col sassaman: right and you'd hope that, it's not a. zero-defect environment but you know in the case of the military and the traditions and just how. the beliefs are set up you know i stood up for the beliefs i disagreed with my superior officers on how a number of situations should have been handled and i paid. the price for | Lt Col SASSAMAN: Right and you'd hope that it's not a zero-defect environment But you; know, in the case of the military and. the traditions and just how the beliefs are set up you know I stood up for the. beliefs I, disagreed. with my superior officers on how a number of situations should have been handled and I paid the price for | lt. col. sassaman: right, and you'd hope that it's not a zero-defect environment. but you know, in the case of the military, and the traditions and just how the beliefs are set up, you know, i stood up for the beliefs, i disagreed with my superior officers on how a number of situations should have been handled, and i paid the price for that. |
And you've been, I don't think scathing is too strong a word to use about your specific officers who - still serving officers. | and you've, been i don't. think scathing is too strong a word to use about. your specific officers who - still serving | And you've been, I don't think, scathing is too strong a word to use about, your specific; officers who - still serving | and you've been, i don't think scathing is too strong a word to use about your specific officers who - still serving officers. |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: Right, I mean, you're right. I mean, I think, like I said before, senior officers, senior military leadership need to be held responsible, need to be held accountable for their decisions. And so, I laid it out as I saw it. I was very frustrated. I received conflicting guidance, one from my immediate superior, and then from my commanding general, and I was left to sort out what - which path to take, and then also, I needed to take into account the accomplishment of the mission and the protection of my men. | lt col sassaman: right i mean you're right. i mean i think like i said before senior officers senior military leadership. need to be held responsible. need to. be held accountable. for their decisions and so i laid it out as i saw it i. was very frustrated i, received conflicting guidance one from my immediate superior and then from my commanding general and i was left to sort out what - which path to take and then also i needed to take into account the accomplishment of the mission and the protection of. my | Lt Col SASSAMAN: Right I mean you're right I mean I think like I said before senior officers senior military leadership need; to be held responsible need to be held, accountable for their decisions And so I laid it out as I saw it I was very, frustrated I received conflicting. guidance one from my immediate superior and then from my commanding general. and I was left to sort out what - which path to take and then also. I needed to take into account the accomplishment of the mission and the protection of my | lt. col. sassaman: right, i mean, you're right. i mean, i think, like i said before, senior officers, senior military leadership need to be held responsible, need to be held accountable for their decisions. and so, i laid it out as i saw it. i was very frustrated. i received conflicting guidance, one from my immediate superior, and then from my commanding general, and i was left to sort out what - which path to take, and then also, i needed to take into account the accomplishment of the mission and the protection of my men. |
And strangely, both of those officers continue - as far as I know, their careers progressed very well in the U.S. Army. | and strangely, both of those officers continue - as far as i. know their careers progressed very well in the u.s | And strangely, both of, those officers continue - as far as I know their careers progressed very well in. the; U.S | and strangely, both of those officers continue - as far as i know, their careers progressed very well in the u.s. army. |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: And that's exactly right. I just - that's just - that's how it is. So, there's, you know, perhaps no fallout for them, but for me, I needed to come clean, and set the record straight for what I went through, and hopefully put the reader in my shoes, and let - and challenge them to decide, you know, what kind of decisions they would have made. | lt col. sassaman: and. that's, exactly right i just - that's just - that's how it is so there's you know perhaps no fallout for them but for. me i needed to come clean, and set the record straight for what i went through and hopefully put the reader in my shoes and let - and, challenge them to decide, you know what kind. of decisions they would have, | Lt, Col. SASSAMAN: And that's exactly right I. just. - that's just - that's how it is So there's you know perhaps no fallout for them but for me, I needed to come clean and set the record straight for what I went through and hopefully put the reader in my shoes and let - and challenge them to decide you know what kind of decisions they would have | lt. col. sassaman: and that's exactly right. i just - that's just - that's how it is. so, there's, you know, perhaps no fallout for them, but for me, i needed to come clean, and set the record straight for what i went through, and hopefully put the reader in my shoes, and let - and challenge them to decide, you know, what kind of decisions they would have made. |
Some might believe that you owed some people - you wrote an apology for not telling your superiors what actually happened on the night in question. Your testimonies, though, in your book are hardly apologies. | some might believe that you owed. some people - you, wrote an apology for not telling your superiors. what, actually happened on the night, in question your testimonies though, in your book are hardly | Some might, believe, that you owed some people - you wrote an apology for not telling your superiors what actually happened on the. night in question Your testimonies though in your book are hardly | some might believe that you owed some people - you wrote an apology for not telling your superiors what actually happened on the night in question. your testimonies, though, in your book are hardly apologies. |
Yeah. | yeah. |
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And what was the fallout? | and what was the | And what was. the | and what was the fallout? |
And Margie's question has another implied question in it. Who's in charge here? If the United States government says, you know, we think you should do plan A, can BP say, no, we're doing plan B? | and margie's question has another implied question. in it who's in. charge here? if the. united states government says you know we think you should do plan a can bp say no, we're doing plan | And Margie's question has, another implied question in it Who's in charge here? If the United States government says you know we think you should do plan A can BP say no we're doing plan | and margie's question has another implied question in it. who's in charge here? if the united states government says, you know, we think you should do plan a, can bp say, no, we're doing plan b? |
Lt. Col. SASSAMAN: I wish we could have all gotten together in a room and talked about it. I still feel that the men who were with the detainees that night had no criminal intent. Poor judgment? Shaky, you know, shaky decision-making there? For certain. I just cannot bring myself, nor have I seen any proof, to show that there was any criminal intent to hurt the Iraqi detainees. And based in the context of the fight that we were in, with losing American men and women, with losing, at that time, Iraqi civil defense corps policemen, and losing American contractors, this, by comparison, seemed to pale. | lt col, sassaman: i wish we could have all gotten together in a room and talked. about it i still feel that; the men who were with the, detainees that night had no; criminal intent poor judgment? shaky you know shaky. decision-making there? for certain i just cannot bring myself nor have i seen any proof to show, that there was any criminal intent to hurt the iraqi detainees and based in the, context of the fight that we were, in with, losing american men and women with losing, at that time iraqi civil defense corps policemen and losing american contractors this by comparison seemed to | Lt Col SASSAMAN: I wish we could have all gotten, together in a room and talked about it I still feel that the men who were with the detainees that night had no criminal intent Poor judgment? Shaky you know shaky decision-making there? For certain, I just cannot bring myself; nor have, I seen any proof to show that there was any, criminal intent to hurt the Iraqi detainees And based, in the context, of the fight that we were in with losing American, men and. women with losing at that time. Iraqi civil defense corps policemen and losing American contractors this by. comparison seemed. to | lt. col. sassaman: i wish we could have all gotten together in a room and talked about it. i still feel that the men who were with the detainees that night had no criminal intent. poor judgment? shaky, you know, shaky decision-making there? for certain. i just cannot bring myself, nor have i seen any proof, to show that there was any criminal intent to hurt the iraqi detainees. and based in the context of the fight that we were in, with losing american men and women, with losing, at that time, iraqi civil defense corps policemen, and losing american contractors, this, by comparison, seemed to pale. |
You then chose not to tell your superior officer, who you did not trust at that moment, the entire truth. Can the Army - that's also the chain of command. Can an Army officer - can an Army stand a situation where officers don't tell their superiors what they need to know? | you then. chose not to tell your superior officer who you did not trust at that moment the entire truth can. the army - that's. also the chain of command can an army officer - can an army stand a situation where officers don't tell their superiors what they need to | You then, chose not to, tell your superior officer who; you, did not trust at that moment the, entire truth Can the Army - that's also; the chain of. command Can an Army officer - can an. Army stand a situation where officers don't tell their superiors what they need to | you then chose not to tell your superior officer, who you did not trust at that moment, the entire truth. can the army - that's also the chain of command. can an army officer - can an army stand a situation where officers don't tell their superiors what they need to know? |