natgillin/translations-raw huggingface dataset:
Det drejer sig reelt om, at systemet etablerer et hierarki for, hvad der anses for mere eller mindre
And when you see the people who do best on the jobs market, in other words the people
Hvis man accepterer mit ræsonnement og alligevel på ny rejser spørgsmålet om punkt-for-punkt overensstemmelse mellem uddannelse og beskæftigelse, løber man ind i en blindgyde.
Apart from these, how ever, each country will reappropriate for itself in its own way the characteristics of individuals, irrespective of how those characteristics are keyed.
Jeg skal imidlertid ikke kunne sige, om denne blindgyde har at gøre med en endnu utilstrækkelig teoretisk viden, el ler om den er af konceptuel karakter.
To speak in a less abstract manner, this implies for example that an Italian who wants to come and work in France will have to adjust to a dual set of references, one in his country of origin and the other in his host country.
CEDEFOP: Det er alligevel interessant at konstatere, at denne blindgyde ikke udelukkende er fransk.
Depending on his circumstances he will refer to his apprenticeship, if he comes from the building industry and has worked in small or medium-sized concerns, or he will refer to his baccalaureate if he comes from secondary education and a large concern.
Det er ligeledes interessant at konstatere, at der også i Tyskland stilles spørgsmål vedrørende det duale systems fremtid.
It is the relative standing of these two factors in the two countries which will mainly define the conditions on which he moves from one to the other.
A. d'Iribarne: Ja, men i Tyskland dre jer problemet sig om pilotering af en ændring af det duale system, om ledsageforanstaltninger til ændringer i arbejdets til rettelæggelse og formodentlig i det tyske samfunds referencesystem.
A person's qualifications, based on the practical expertise acquired through apprenticeship, may enjoy high status in Italy, but coexist with a low status in France where such qualifications obtain little recognition.
CEDEFOP: Det tyske problem er et spørgsmål om pilotering af det duale system. I Frankrig, Italien og Spa-
CEDEFOP: All the same, it is odd to note that this impasse is not unique to France.
nien findes der imidlertid også et problem med uddannelsessystem pilotering.
Interview with Jürgen Alleseh must cope with in their work, especially at engineering or technical level, that gives you the measure of their abilities.
CEDEFOP: Vil det sige, at projektet vedrørende opstilling af en europæisk fortegnelse over fagprofiler er dømt til at mislykkes?
CEDEFOP: Your work consists mainly in providing advice and technical support to SME's.
kompetencer og på baggrund heraf un dersøge hvordan uddannelsesapparatet opbygges.
If you take, for example, the British system, most managers are people who studied history, law or other sub jects, but in any case these studies do not develop managerial skills.
Hvis vi retter blikket mod England, er det uddannelsesforløb inden for servicesektoren, økonomi og handel, der tiltrækker unge med de bedste færdigheder.
This explains, in my view, the success of business schools and the MBA in England, as they are providing special training for management and consultancy in particular.
Ingeniøruddannelserne har f.eks. nærmest karakter af andenrangsuddannelser.
CEDEFOP: You mentioned the difficultiesfacing a common European approach to qualifications, in particular at man agement level.
De mest velrenommerede skoler er de, der tilbyder uddannelser inden for servicefag, og ikke ingeniørtypen.
In other countries initial vocational training takes place mostly in schools or in "workshops".
Under søger man, hvem der får den bedste placering på arbejdsmarkedet, dvs. i stillinger med høj status og høje lønninger, ser man, at de har uddannelser inden for ser vicefagene. I Frankrig er dette ikke til fældet.
On the other hand, the behaviour of labour markets varies significantly. In the internal labour market, you already mentioned that in Germany there is a tradition of what we could call "vertical promotion".
Man finder altså situationer i De
In Germany, we have a completely differ ent situation.
A. d'Iribarne: I alle lande findes der et problem med pilotering af uddannelsesapparatet.
J. Allesch: It depends on the branches of activity and the size of the enterprises.
Så længe faglært arbejde med en komponent af empiriske færdigheder har en høj status i det tyske samfund, vil det duale system forblive omdrejningspunktet for organiseringen af forholdet mellem uddannelsernes udvikling på den ene side og arbejdet på den anden. Der vil finde tilpasninger sted, men det vil blive tilpasninger, der drejer om dette punkt.
The handicraft sectoris strongly regulated: there are strict regulations on the recruitment of skilled workers and on becoming a "Meister", people must have special train ing as well as the approval of the Chamber of Handicraft (or the Chambers of Commerce or Industry ).
CEDEFOP: Hvilken rolle kan Fællesskabernes Europa spille med hen blik på a t fremme pilo teringen af ud dannelsessystemerne ?
But these "standards", as you called them, should be defined, in my opinion, at a lower level. I'll give you an example: when someone who works with computer-
A. d'Iribarne: Nej. Det vil sige, at man må konstruere et system med enkle holdepunkter, der kan bidrage til at skabe et vist antal overgangsmuligheder mellem nationale referencer.
In Germany, business schools and the MBA don' t exist, even if there is a certain amount of discussion on the possibility of introducing them.
Men hvert land vil i sidste instans på sin egen façon gøre de nationale karakteristika gældende uafhængigt af dette system.
In my view, considering that our system is different.
Han må alt efter den konkrete situation henvise til sin praktiske erhvervserfaring — hvis han kommer fra byggesektoren og SM V — el ler til sin studentereksamen, hvis han kommer fra en uddannelse på sekundærtrinnet eller store virksomheder.
On the other hand, in the public sector (administration), the certificate is also very important because people have the right to be placed in a wage bracket which corresponds to their academic qualifications.
Det er den relative placering af disse to elementer i de to lande, der vil være afgørende for overgangsvilkårene.
Manager, Technologie-Vermittlungs-Agentur Berlin e.V.
A. d'Iribarne: Jeg kan ikke give Dem noget svar.
So you see how difficult it is to have a common system of standards at manage ment level.
Det vigtigste er at tage ud gangspunkt i det enkelte lands konstruktioner, i de i samfundene anerkendte
For me. the best instrument for employers, especially at this level, to meas ure people's abilities, is their perform ance.
A. d'Iribarne: Ja, naturligvis. Jeg hører til dem, der mener, at man som udgangspunkt har 12 »samfundskonstruktioner«, 12 »nationale konstruktioner«, der er indbyrdes forskellige.
But industry in general is mainly interested in the real skills that the worker can "offer".
Interview med J. Allesch så får man en målestok for deres formåen.
Until now, they always got from the mar ket the skills they needed (in fact they don't have a "training capacity" and at management level they don't have people in charge of personnel development).
ken maskine, han arbejder med, og for tæller om den uddannelse, han har fået for at arbejde med den maskine, er det muligt at definere et system for standarder.
It's a market-oriented approach where people know that they have "to do some thing" if they want to increase their in come and responsibility.
Men det bliver langt mere kompliceret at arbejde med ledelsesniveauet (som for øvrigt er det, jeg beskæftiger mig med).
This is the sys tem in Germany: if you work in a company as a skilled worker, you must take your career development into your own hands.
CEDEFOP: Deres arbejde består hovedsagelig i at rådgive og yde teknisk bistand til SM V'er, og De er der for godt placeret til at kende de tyske arbejdsgiveres behov og indstilling til udvikling af menneskelige res sourcer, og navnlig den måde, hvor på arbejdsgiverne ser på kvalifika tioner.
Your career depends on your interest and attitude towards your work.
CEDEFOP: De nævnte vanskeligheder forbundet med at få en fælles europæisk indfaldsvinkel på kvalifika tioner, specielt på lederniveau.
I think we must invent new forms of help ing small enterprises to develop skills.
Men for så vidt angår faglærte arbejdere, kan man også se væsentlige forskel le, idet det grundlæggende erhvervs uddannelsessystem i Tyskland læg ger vægt på arbejdserfaring og socialisering i virksomheden, ¡andre lande foregår den grundlæggende erhvervsuddannelse hovedsagelig på skoler eller »værksteder«.
For five years now, we have been developing programmes for small enterprises, aimed at introducing new technologies as we are aware that it is of no use to bring new technology into an enterprise without solving the qualification problem at the same time.
På den anden side er man i dag i Europa stærkt interesseret i at finde frem til »en europæisk indfaldsvinkel på kvalifikationer«, nærmere præciseret europæiske standarder til at vurdere kvalifikationer (uanset om økonomien har behov for dem, eller om de tilbydes af enkeltpersoner).
But we must make a distinction between big and small companies. Big companies act in this respect, in a very formalized way, (due to the various pressures put upon them, mainly by the unions).
Det kunne være interessant at vide, hvor værdien og de potentielle muligheder ved disse standarder ef ter Deres opfattelse ligger i praksis, og hvor der tages hensyn til Tysk lands kulturelle baggrund.
So they are very strict concerning the certificates at all levels and the wage rates, levels depending mainly on the duration of ap prenticeship and on certificates and diplomas: it's a controlled system.
På dette niveau er der store forskelle fra land til land.
J. Allesch: First of all the problem of the real comparability of certificates, mainly at "Techniker" level.
Det er efter min mening forklaringen på, hvorfor handelshøjskoler, »business schools« og MBA-kurser i England har haft så stor succes, fordi de formidler særlig uddannelse i le delse og navnlig konsulentvirksomhed.
In East Germany, they term engineer what we designate as "Techniker" (technical assistant).
I England ansættes ledere generelt direkte i denne egenskab, eftersom der ikke er no gen tradition for, at ansatte bliver ledere gennem forfremmelse.
And this interpretation has consequences for levels and wages in the labour market.
På den anden side er der forskel på, hvor ledes arbejdsmarkeder opfører sig.
On the other hand, in West Germany when some one is designated a skilled worker (for instance in sanitary technology or medical technology), we know exactly what kind of skills he has and the technology he can work with.
På det interne arbejdsmarked har De allerede nævnt, at der i Tyskland er tradition for, hvad man kunne kalde vertikal forfremmelse.
In East Germany, in spite of the good certificates people may have, a skilled worker was very often someone who car ried out a non-skilled job.
Men på det eksterne arbejdsmarked ser det ud til, at det der tæller er »eksamensbeviset« (som hovedsagelig er hverves gennem det duale system). Det er ikke tilfælde i andre lande.
For instance, if you ask a "skilled worker for transport technology" what his tasks were, he would probably answer that he only was supposed to drive a vehicle, loaded or un loaded, and nothing else.
De begynder i stedet som ansatte og udvikler efterhånden le derevner gennem en kombination af arbejdserfaring og uddannelse.
In East Germany there was a career planner be hind the workers who was in charge of their permanent assessment and of suggesting what kind of training they should have.
J. Aliesch: Jeg mener, at de rent faktisk er nødvendige, fordi arbejdsmarkedet vil vokse betydeligt i takt med etableringen af det fælles marked.
The problem is that they are only able to offer to SME's traditional training instruments: courses and seminars outside the firm.
Derfor må arbejds giverne kunne kende forskel på kvalifika tionerne hos folk, der kommer fra andre EF-lande.
And SME's are unwilling to accept this: they cannot afford to have people missing work for a certain time and they are afraid of increasing the risk of external mobility of their best resources, by allow ing them to spend time outside the firm in contact with other people working in the same field.
Vi kan allerede nu iagttage nye emigrationstendenser, ikke kun fra øst mod vest, men også fra visse EF-lande til det centrale Europa, hvor løn og levevilkår er bedre.
So, I would say that a solution to this problem could be to bring training into the job, partly during working time, partly during the employee's free time.
Derfor vil arbejdsgiverne mere end nogensinde før få behov for at have detaljerede oplysninger om de kvali fikationer, de folk, de ansætter, har.
CEDEFOP: How would you describe the manner in which German industry is coping with qualification needs?
J. Allesch: Det afhænger af branchen og virksomhedernes størrelse.
Small companies bargain on the basis of what people can do and of the role they play in the firm.
Håndværkerfagene er stærkt reguleret.
Previous experience also plays a part in this bargaining process.
Der er strenge bestemmelser om rekruttering af medarbejdere, og om hvordan man bliver håndværksmester.
In big firms, without such certificates, people don't get a qualified job.
Folk skal have gen nemgået særlig uddannelse og også være godkendt af Håndværkskammeret (eller Handelseller Industrikamrene).
This, in some way, could be interpretated as a "selective/elitist" sys tem: "through your education (and what your parents can afford), you become what you will become".
Dette re gulerede system synes at være en slags »beskyttelse« for arbejderne mod anvendelse af »billig arbejdskraft« og folk med korte grunduddannelser.
And I think that aware ness of this phenomena is the thinking behind implementing what you could call "a second way", in the last 20 years, in Germany.
Men disse »standarder«, som De kalder dem, bør efter min opfattelse defineres på et lavere niveau.
J. Allesch: I would say that today companies are aware of the importance of having highly qualified people who are able to innovate and make them more competitive.
Lad mig give et eksempel: Når en eller anden, der arbejder med edb-styrede maskiner, fortæller en, hvil-
Nowadays, "human capital" really means capital.
I Tyskland findes der ikke handelshøjskoler og MBA-kurser, selv om man til en vis grad drøfter muligheden for at introducere dem.
This second way consists mainly in enabling people to raise their general basic qualification during working time and through evening courses; and facilitating their access to higher education (not to "big universities" but to certain colleges).
I betragtning af at vores system er anderledes, er der efter min opfattelse ikke behov for det. Men måske er sådan ne skoler relevante for andre lande med anderledes karriereforløb.
I think this was an important measure that was taken, as it increases the chances of the employees in the "bargaining process".
På den anden side er eksamensbeviser og så i den offentlige sektor (administrationen) meget vigtige, fordi folk har ret til at blive placeret i en lønramme, der svarer til deres akademiske uddannelse.
Nevertheless, a further distinction in the attitudes of SME's towards training and development of qualifications must be made: small, more traditional firms that carry out simple tasks are not so much aware of the qualification problems, and are not actively interested in training.
Men industrien generelt er hovedsagelig interesseret i de reelle færdigheder, en arbejder kan »tilbyde«.
And more than that, I think that industry is aware of the fact that if they want highly qualified people, they must develop their own training strategies, as the market can no longer respond.
Lønforhandlinger sker på basis af disse grundlæggende kvalifikationer i virksomheden.
That explains why big companies have developed a very costly system for the education and qualification of their own resources, with separate institutions (the so-called personnel develop ment programmes).
Det er en markedsorienteret indfaldsvinkel, hvor folk ved, at de »skal gøre noget«, hvis de ønsker at øge deres indtægt og ansvarsområde. Sådan er systemet i Tyskland.
For small companies, even if the problem is the same, the solutions are different, as they don't have the same instruments and very often don't realize that the development of human
Så De kan se, hvor vanskeligt det er at få et fælles system for standarder på ledelsesniveauet.
This also accounts for the wide variety of specialized journals you will find in Germany and the scope devoted to the exchange of information and experience by the German Association of Engineers (Verein Deutscher Ingenieure, VDI)
Jey mener, at arbejdsgivernes bedste værktøj, navnlig på dette niveau, til at måle folks evner, er deres arbejdspræstation.
CEDEFOP: Recent developments in Germany puts you in the situation of having to compare national qualifications and certificates, as the new "Länder", previously GDR, enlarged the German labour market.
Det, jeg mener, er, at når man iagttager, hvordan en eller an den løser de problemer, de skal løse på de res arbejdsplads, navnlig inden for maskintekniske eller andre tekniske områder,
What are the main problems which confront you in this comparative exercise?
Karrieren afhænger af ens interesse i og indstilling til arbejdet.
Jobs, skills and training needs in Spain
Men der skal sondres mellem store og små virksomheder.
In this strategic and methodological line the PPO and SEAF did systematic, rigorous and wide-ranging work.
Store virksomheder opfører sig i den sammenhæng meget for maliseret (på grund af de forskellige for mer for pres, de ligger under for, hovedsageligt fra fagforeningerne).
Studies were made of occupations and of skills closely tied to the occupational perspective.
Derfor er de meget strikse med hensyn til uddannelsesbeviser på alle niveauer, og lønniveauet afhænger hovedsagelig af, hvor lang læretiden er, og hvilke uddannelsesbeviser og diplomer, den ansatte har. Det er et styret system.
"Occupational families" were classified; different jobs were classified in terms of training routes and course contents were designed to allow students to follow successive training modules with a view to achieving a real working career.
Videre mener jeg, at industrien er klar over, at hvis de ønsker at få højt kvalificerede folk, så må de udvikle deres egne ud dannelsesstrategier, eftersom markedet ikke længere er i stand til at reagere på dem.
Starting with the Franco regime's economic-development programme in the 1960s the importance of direct labour in industry was very great and, up to a point, has remained so.
Dette er forklaringen på, hvorfor store virksomheder har udviklet et meget dyrt system til uddannelse og kvalificering af deres egne ressourcer gennem se parate institutioner (de såkaldte personaleudviklingsprogrammer).
The workers' vocational development programme (PPO) was aimed from the 1960s onwards at providing ac celerated training in low- and intermediategrade skills in the manufacturing sector.
Indtil nu har de altid fået de kvalifikationer, de havde brug for, på arbejdsmarke det (rent faktisk har de ikke »uddannelsesressourcer«, og på ledelsesniveau har de ikke nogen, der står for personale udviklingsfunktionen).
The Ministry of Labour contributed in practical ways to these activities in the area of skill studies, e.g. by publishing a national job and skill index. The methodological and strategic model adopted was thus complemented by other logistical elements which helped build up a whole of great solidity and internal coherence.
Et andet aspekt af stor betydning er folks indstilling til arbejde.
In this type of job the concept of occupa tional skill is basically a direct one: mas tery of the tasks which make up the job.
I Østtyskland var der en karriereplanlægger bag arbejder ne, som havde ansvaret for hele tiden at vurdere dem og komme med forslag til, hvilken slags uddannelse, de burde have. Det var ikke den ansattes beslutning.
This importance of tasks and the methods embodied in them is considerable in certain jobs which still exist; what has changed very greatly in recent times in industry is the relative importance of such jobs.
Og tager man ikke initiativ, ja så kan man overleve, men kun på et lavt niveau.
The aim is that the labour market should finda rapid and flexible response to its quantitative and qualitative require ments in a context in which human resources are one of the strategic keys to competitiveness in the new dimen sion of the single European market.
Små virksomheder fører lønforhandlinger ud fra, hvad folk kan, og hvilken rolle, de spiller i virksomheden.
It seems to me that there are major misunderstandings and confusion, but at the same time great opportunities, in this area.
Tidligere erfaring spiller også en rolle i denne forhandlingsproces. De har en mere fleksibel ind stilling, og til tider er det nemmere for folk, der ikke har gode eksamensbeviser at opbygge en karriere i en lille virksomhed.
The thoughts and proposals put forward here are intended to contribute, from a tradeunion viewpoint, to clarifying the picture and, more important, to the adoption, with government and employers, of sound and coherent agreements capable of advancing beyond the present situation.
Dette kan på en måde tolkes som værende et »selektivt/elitistisk« system. »Gennem uddannelse (og hvad di ne forældre har råd til) bliver du, hvad du vil blive til«.
INEM). the emphasis was on occupa tional research as a means of determining skill requirements and hence training needs.
Jeg mener, at det, at man er opmærksom på dette fænomen, er tanke gangen bag gennemførelsen af det, man kunne kalde »en anden vej«, gennem de seneste 20 år i Tyskland.
The study of occupations started from their concrete manifestation as jobs: the observation of a representative number of jobs in a sample of firms.
Vi har nu gennem fem år ud viklet programmer til små virksomheder, der sigter mod at indføre ny teknologi, ef tersom vi er opmærksomme på, at det ikke nytter noget at indføre ny teknologi i en virksomhed uden samtidig at løse kvalifikationsproblemet.
Over time other approaches have emerged within this institutional framework, with the result that different and sometimes contradictory approaches and methodologies now coexist within INEM.
Efter min opfattelse har dette været et vigtigt skridt, eftersom det øger medarbejdernes chancer i »lønforhandlingsprocessen«.
Training Secretary of the Confederal Executive Committee of the General Union of Workers ÍUGT) with responsibility for the training field at national level
CEDEFOP: Den seneste udvikling i Tyskland betyder, at De skal sammenligne nationale kvalifikationer og eksamensbeviser efter at de nye forbundsdelstater, det tidligere DDR, har udvidet det tyske arbejds marked. Hvad er de væsentligste problemer, De støder på i denne sammenligning ?
To sum up. we can say that in an economic period (the 1960s and 1970s) when direct labour was needed, the stress was on re training agricultural workers for manufacturing industry, with technological and organizational stability assumed, and that the methodology used for the study of
J. Allesch: Det er først og fremmest problemet med reelt at kunne sammenligne eksamensbeviser, hovedsagelig på »teknikerniveau«.
Jobs and. later, occupational classifications were seen basically as groups of tasks ("job analysis").
I det forhenværende Øst tyskland er betegnelsen for det, vi kalder »teknikere« (teknisk assistent), ingeniør.
The methodology concerned, of North American origin, served to determine the commonest occupational profiles in industry as regards their skill content in terms of tasks.
Denne udlægning får konsekvenser for niveauerne og lønnen på arbejdsmarke
In terms of train ing provision the approach was based on the paradigm of skill acquisition.
gave for små og mellemstore virksomheder. somheder.
large part of those resources will go on being wasted.