natgillin/translations-raw huggingface dataset:
sen af den grundlæggende eller efterfølgende erhvervsuddannelsestilbud om kvalifikation har man i den lethed, hvor med de specielle persongrupper, som for anstaltningerne henvender sig til, kan finde egnet beskæftigelse eller opnå en mindskelse af den risiko der truer be skæftigelsen (arbejdsløshed, lavt kvalifi ceret arbejde).
On the basis of these 'levels', it can be determined whether a type of training enables people to reach a given 'level', whether it offers easier access to a scheme leading to a higher 'level' or whether a scheme simply prevents young people from becoming unemployed (i.e. no more than a delaying effect).
Erhvervsuddannelsernes mål og personstrømmene
Problems connected with the description of the flow of people
Personstrømmene og de internationale sammenligninger
Analysing the flow of people poses pro­blems, however, especially when these people are to be described in function of age groups:
Til vurdering af investeringerne i er hvervsuddannelse må der udarbejdes en analysemodel, der omfatter alle foreliggende variabler — finansielle strømme, personstrømme og uddannelsesmål — og den indbyrdes sammenhæng mellem disse variabler.
Mrs Annie Ornon (member of the Dele­gation à la Formation Professionnelle, Paris) and Mrs Hilary Steedman (Na­tional Institute of Economic and Social Research, London).
Undersøgelse af personstrømmenes ud vikling udgør eventuelt en mulighed for en sammenlignende analyse, der viser de særlige nationale foranstaltningers virkninger for et givet land, da de principielle mål for de forskellige former for erhvervsuddannelsespolitik er sammenlignelige.
In any case, any attempt to describe the flow of people is facilitated by the fact that in all the Community countries the total number of lower secondary school leavers is shown in the statistics.
I alle Fællesskabets medlemsstater ønsker man, at de unge skal skaffe sig en kvalifikation gennem det almene og erhvervsfaglige uddannelsessystem, så de kan opnå fast kvalificeret beskæftigelse, som ikke kun er af kort varighed.
Descrip­tions of the flow of people can be confirm­ed when the statistics or specific surveys provide information on people in employ­ment with an indication of their age and the types of training they have undergone.
I alle Fællesskabets medlemsstater tilbydes eller finansieres der erhvervsuddannelsesforanstaltninger af staten (nationalt eller regionalt), af erhvervslivet eller af kommunerne.
■ Even when the statistics include data on participation in training schemes in a reliable and integral form, they are frequently not broken down according to age.
Formålet med oprettelse af nye uddannelseslinier er indslusning på arbejdsmarkedet eller mindskelse af problemerne ved bestemte overgange i løbet af den erhvervsaktive periode.
The figures available must therefore be supplemented by periodic estimates or sampling.
I alle tilfælde regner den eller de instanser, der står for uddannelsesforanstaltningerne, med, at en bestemt målgruppe vil interessere sig for den nye uddannelsesmulighed.
This task is facilitated when the data on certain subgroups are at least broken down according to age at the beginning or end of a training scheme.
Sideløbende hermed skal grundlæggende og efterfølgende erhvervsuddannelsesprocedurer fremme en aktiv tilpasning til den teknisk-organisatoriske og økono-misk-strukturelle forandring, der finder sted inden for beskæftigelsessystemet.
This problem prompted the Centre to organize a discussion meeting, attended by the following participants:
Den bedste måde til at konstatere succe
In this case, specific surveys, calculations or estimates must be implemented, even for conventional analyses of the situation at a given moment in time.
Selv om f.eks. forbindelsen mellem grundlæggende og efterfølgende uddan nelse er forskellig i Fællesskabets med lemsstater, eller grænserne mellem almen- og erhvervsuddannelse varierer fra land til land, så egner personernes be
Mr Uwe Grünewald (BIBB — the Federal Institute for Vocational Train­ing, Berlin),
Erhvervsuddannelse 3/1988 l'i
Vocational training 3/1988
Sammenligninger af årgangene som grundlag for analyse af ændringerne af uddannelsesvejene
efforts to train young people and the unemployed.
Den mest benyttede metode til kvantita­tiv analyse afbenyttelsen af bestemte ud­dannelseslinier er sammenligning af øje­blikkelige situationer ved en uddannelses begyndelse eller afslutning.
Some Member States are currently in vesting considerable sums in improving their understanding of the actual situation by carrying out quantitative and qualitative studies on the subject.
Denne meto­de, der er tilstrækkelig som basis for be­regning af forholdet mellem elev­ og un­derviserantal eller til beregning af uddan­nelsesudgifterne pr. deltager i forbindelse med en årsopgørelse, kan imidlertid ikke bruges, hvis man skal beregne deltager­antallets udvikling for en række uddan­nelsers vedkommende.
This assessment is largely based on a comparison of the data produced by the services of the Ministry of National Education (Sprese) and the findings of the employment survey carried out by Insee, complemented by the results of the survey on first jobs, conducted by the Cereq,2and the statistics of the Delegation à la formation professionnelle.
Det kan man gøre ved over en længere periode at følge udviklingen for en årgang, der har nået skolepligtens ophør (ca. indtil 25 år).
What kinds of problems do you en counter in obtaining an accurate idea of the flow of people and funds to support the vocational training systems?
Den­ne metode muliggør det på et tidligt stade — og ikke først når en bestemt uddannel­se er overbelastet, eller der er alt for man­ge uden uddannelse — at konstatere en ændring i visse uddannelsers popularitet som følge af flaskehalse eller blindgyder i uddannelses­ eller beskæftigelsessy­stemet.
At the moment we are observing all those undergoing training — young people and adults — with a view to taking stock of the vocational training of the employed from an economic point of view. The BIPE3is in charge of this exercise, the aim of which is to determine the real economic importance of training com pared to the country's other activities by taking account of both these statistical findings and expenditure by households and individuals which is neither systematic nor compulsory.
Sammenligninger af udsvin­gene i årgangene som analy­segrundlag for uddannelses­systemernes struktur samlede antal personer, der forlader se­kundærtrinnets første del, omfattes af statistikkerne.
This stock-taking process naturally en tails the delicate operation of defining common categories to be used by all the participating bodies.
Man kan kontrollere fremstillingen af personstrømmene, når statistikker eller særlige undersøgelser in­deholder oplysninger om personer, der udøver et erhverv, med angivelse af alder og gennemgået uddannelse.
The basic situation as regards statistics in the Federal Republic of Germany is generally very good. The statistics on the flow of people in the various types of inschool training, including the dual system, are largely complete, permitting a general assessment on an annual basis.
■ Hyppigt opsplittes selv pålidelige og omfattende statistikker om uddannelser­nes udnyttelse ikke efter alder. De forelig­gende tal må da suppleres med skøn eller periodiske stikprøver.
From left to right: Michael Adams, Uwe Grünewald, Hilary Steedman, Georges Dupont, Fernanda Reis, Stavros Stavrou, Annie Ornon
Dette arbejde let­tes, når oplysningerne for visse under­grupper differentieres efter alder i hvert fald ved uddannelsens begyndelse eller afslutning,
The problem is not so much whether or not statistics exist, it is more a question of their compatibility when they come from different sources, as is often the case.
Det giver også mulighed for at få mere at vide, især ved internatio­nale sammenligninger, når de forskellige analyser refererer til de erhvervsuddan­nelsesniveauer, der nyder almindelig an­erkendelse inden for EF.
The situation as regards the cost of training schemes is also rather complicated because the costs in the school sector are financed at different levels, by both the local authorities and the Länder. In incompany vocational training we have a mixed financing system.
Ved hjælp af ni­veauerne kan man kontrollere, om en ud­dannelse bruges til at komme op på et gi­vet niveau, om den letter adgangen til en uddannelse, der fører til et højere niveau, eller om virkningen af en uddannelse ind­skrænker sig til at forhindre ungdomsar­bejdsløshed (ren og skær forhalende virkning).
We also have statistics on the vocational training of adults. The stipulation in the 1971 Act that employers should spend at least 1.1 % of total wages and salaries on the training of their employees requires them to submit an annual statement, which is processed by the statistical services of the Délégation à la formation professionnelle.
Vanskelighederne ved at vise personstrømmene
Here again, the calculations are based on empirical surveys and an attempt is then made to transfer these data to other sectors not covered by the surveys.
■ Der findes overhovedet ingen oplys­ningerom de forskellige uddannelsers ud­nyttelse.
As far as vocational training is concern ed, for example, we have various sources of official statistics in France: the Ministry of Education acts on behalf of young people who are its responsibility, even after compulsory education, i.e. mainly in the institutions of higher education.
I så fald må man selv ved tradi­tionelle analyser af den øjeblikkelige si­tuation ty til særlige undersøgelser, be­regninger eller skøn.
These statistics are also very useful as a guide for the government's incentive policy with which it will be trying to change certain natural tendencies.
I alle tilfælde lettes fristelsen til at vise personstrømmene af det forhold, at det
Similarly, these statistics enable us to analyse the results of the government's
En analyse af personstrømmene volder imidlertid vanskeligheder, især når man vil vise dem efter årgange; det gælder især i nedennævnte situationer:
Following several attempts, a common method emerged, with the Insee ' acting as coordinator, which led to the 'assessment of training and employment' in 1983.
tes statistisk af erhvervsuddannelsesdepartementet.
The Centre: they are in employment.
Der tales hyppigt om vanskeligheden ved at finde pålidelige oplysninger om er hvervsuddannelserne.
But we have no way of knowing how many young people do this and it would really be very useful to know.
Det skyldes, at er hvervsuddannelserne foregår inden for mindre faste rammer end skoleundervisningen, hvorfor oplysningerne, når de
Similarly it would be useful to know how many older people improve their qualifications and their education level through their own effort, that is, how much individuals themselves con­tribute to the continuing train­ing effort.
Disse statistikker er for øvrigt yderst nyt tige ved statens tilrettelæggelse af sin po litik til påvirkning af »naturlige« tendenser.
Our first round of discussion has revealed that there are statistical data on the flow of both people and funds in initial voca­tional training.
Når man f.eks. konstaterer, at virksomhedernes investeringer i uddannelse af deres ansatte vokser i takt med virksomhedsstørrelsen, må man altså gøre en indsats for de små og mellemstore virksomheder, der ofte ikke råder over til strækkelige egenmidler til for alvor at kunne tage fat på denne opgave.
There are more problems when it comes to analysing the flow through continuing training, not only with respect to the number of people and the costs involved, but also the type of continuing training involved.
Endvidere giver disse statistikker os mulighed for at analysere resultaterne af statens bestræbelser med henblik på uddan nelse af unge mennesker og arbejdsløse.
I think up to now the usual method of try­ing to measure the vocational training ef­fort in our country and in many other countries has been to look at initial enrol­
Fra venstre til højre: Michael Adams, Uwe Grünewald, Hilary Steedman, Georges Dupont, Fernanda Reis, Stavros Stavrou, Annie Ornon findes, må søges forskellige steder og hyppigt ikke er indbyrdes forenelige.
In fact, it is not only a question of a short­age of data: there is also the difficulty of bringing the information held by various ministries, the social partners and the regions under one roof at national level.
læggende uddannelses »produktion« med oplysninger fra eksterne kilder, ikke mindst for beskæftigelsen.
Moreover, it is not only a question of pooling these data, but also of making them compatible.
I øjeblikket arbejder vi på en undersøgelse af det samlede elevmateriale — unge som voksne — i forbindelse med opstilling af en økonomisk opgørelse af uddan nelsen af erhvervsaktive.
Statistical data — which are not, of course, collected for a specific purpose and are therefore always fragmentary — with calculations.
Arbejdet udføres af Kontoret for Økonomiske Oplysninger og Prognoser (Bureau d'information et de prévisions économiques BIPE).
I also think it is impor­tant for individual countries wanting to work with the model to go ahead and make bold estimates, because I hope that if estimates in the model or in the descrip­tion of a country are relevant to its train­ing policy, other bodies in this country will attempt to replace these estimates with calculations or perhaps even statistics.
Formålet dermed er at finde ud af er hvervsuddannelsernes reelle økonomiske omfang i forhold til de øvrige aktiviteter i landet under hensyntagen ikke blot til statistikkernes resultater, men også til husstandes og enkeltpersoners uddannelsesudgifter, som hverken er systematiske eller obligatoriske.
In other words, the desire for data, justified by the need for educational policy­makers to obtain information on types of training, may also have a stimulating effect on the kind of data the educational statisticians or statisticians in general provide for educational plan­ners and also researchers — and there are in fact signs of this in the discussions at Eurostat. I believe this would be very fruitful.
Hvilke problemer støder De på, når De ønsker at få et klart indtryk af erhvervs uddannelsernes deltagere og finansiering inden for de forskellige systemer?
What kinds of problems do you encounter when you have to compare your data with data from another coun­try? (Mr Grünewald, would you present these diagrams?)
I Tyskland har vi alt i alt en glimrende statistisk udgangsposition.
ment in various types of vocational train­ing courses and programmes.
Statistikkerne over personstrømmene for skolernes ud dannelser — herunder også for det duale erhvervsuddannelsessystem — er så om fattende, at det kan lade sig gøre at udarbejde en årlig opgørelse.
This is only useful up to a point because these pro­grammes have a high drop­out rate and the numbers actually taking them right through to a qualification are unknown in many cases.
Det er ikke så meget et spørgsmål, om der findes statistikker, som et spørgsmål om disses manglende kompatibilitet, der skyldes, at de hyppigt stammer fra for skellige kilder.
So we should not look just at enrolments on various types of pro­grammes, but also at outcomes in terms of useful and recognized vocational qualifications and this ought to become another method of evaluation.
Denne opgørelse bygger i alt væsentligt på materiale fra Undervisningsministeriets SPRESE-afdeling og anvendelse af INSEE's undersøgelse, som suppleredes med resultater fra EVA-Instituttet for Undersøgelse af Integration i Erhvervs aktivitet, der sorterer under Centeret for Undersøgelser og Forskning om Kvalifi kationer — (Centre d'études et de recherches sur les qualifications CEREQ), samt statistikker fra erhvervsuddannelsesdepartementet.
At pre­sent we do not have sufficient data to allow us to do this. The Manpower Ser­vices Commission (now renamed the Training Commission) is currently carry­ing out a large­scale survey of the financ­ing of vocational education and training, and when those results are available we should have much better information on this subject.
I Frankrig har vi forskellige kilder, der le verer oplysning om erhvervsuddannelserne.
We can tell what percentage of a cohort are in youth training or apprenticeship or are in full­time education .'
Undervisningsministeriet kan le vere oplysninger om sit elevmateriale — også ud over den egentlige skolegang, for så vidt angår sekundærtrinnets uddan nelsessteder. Disse data omfatter fordelingen på køn, undervisningstype, kvalifi-
We also have the data of examination results for voca­tional training and we can see each year how many individuals obtain vocational training qualifications.
Derimod volder det vanskeligheder at skaffe oplysninger om, hvad der sker ved afslutningen af en given uddannelse.
We cannot see exactly at present what types of City and Guilds qualifications are the results of young people following the YTS,2 or the result of older people doing a course of further training at their own expense or at the ex­pense of the firm.
Her arbejder vi mange gange på grundlag af empiriske undersøgelser, som bruges til beregning af overgangskvoter, som så indgår i modellen.
So it would be useful to know something about the origins of people who obtain vocational qualifica­tions in the UK, and what route they take to get those qualifications.
Situationen er også no get kompliceret i forbindelse med udgifterne til uddannelserne, fordi udgifterne
Secondly, the area where we are very short of informa­tion is continuing education, particularly in companies, and we need to be a lot more precise about the way in which we ask questions on this issue.
Opgørelsen omfattede aldersgruppen 16-25 år. For de voksnes vedkommende har vi ligeledes statistikker på erhvervs uddannelsesområdet.
For an assessment of the costs in the con­text of vocational training, it is important to describe the 'quantitative structure' of the individual types of training, i.e to know how young people are distributed among the various types of training which are financed in different ways and give rise to different costs.
I henhold til en lov fra 1971 skal arbejdsgiverne bruge 1,1% af deres samlede lønmasse til de ansattes uddannelse, og i forbindelse hermed skal der laves en årlig indberetning, der udnyt
To avoid a static picture of the funding of the voca­tional training system, the following description is based on the distribution of a training cohort after leaving lower secondary education among the various types of general education and voca­
Det vil derfor væ­re nyttigt at vide noget om, hvorfra de mennesker kommer, som opnår er­hvervsfaglige kvalifikationer i Storbri­tannien, hvilken vej de følger til opnåelse af disse kvalifikationer.
This form of presentation also enables 'detours' in a given type of education to be depicted in the form of the flow of people.
For det andet er inden for skolesektoren afholdes på for­skellige niveauer, nemlig kommuner og delstater.
I should like to comment on what Hilary Steedman has said.
Hvad erhvervsuddannelsen på virksomhederne angår, er der tale om en blandet finansieringsform, og igen i dette tilfælde regner vi os på grundlag af empi­riske undersøgelser frem til materiale, som så forsøges anvendt på områder, der ikke omfattedes af opgørelsen.
It has become clear to me that the means of observing the flow of people as a flexible instrument for a comparison between countries are not yet entirely clear-cut. As our UK colleague has stressed, it is difficult to extrapolate the British situation to the German structure.
Derfor bør vi ikke kun se på tilmeldingerne, men også på re­sultaterne i form af anvendelige og aner­kendte erhvervsfaglige kvalifikationer, som bør blive en anden form for evalue­ring.
Diagram I shows how they entered higher secondary education. Less than half (approximately 44%) succeeded in immediately finding a training place in the dual system leading to a vocational training certificate at level 2.
I øjeblikket har vi ikke tilstrækkeli­ge oplysninger til at gøre dette.
this and say: only those who are in a pro per three-year apprenticeship in the UK can really be said to be in an equivalent to the dual system in the Federal Republic.
Training Commission (tidligere Manpower Servi­ces Commission) gennemfører i øjeblik­ket en omfattende undersøgelse af finan­sieringen af erhvervsuddannelserne, og når resultaterne deraf foreligger, vil vi rå­de over langt bedre oplysninger om emnet.
That gives you a rather small percentage of 16-year-olds, but you can also take a much wider definition which is the one we have used here and you can add to those who are in apprenticeships all those who are in the YTS, even though it is only a two-year training pro gramme and it does not yet have the same outcome in terms of qualifications as the dual system. So perhaps I could have an opinion about that from our colleagues.
Det fremgår af den første bordrunde, at der findes statistikker både om de finan­sielle strømme og om personstrømmene i den grundlæggende erhvervsuddannelse.
The aim of the procedure when analysing the flow of people should in fact be to have specific points in time that are clear ly applicable to all countries.
Problemerne vokser, når man skal til at analysere de strømme, der gennemskæ­rer voksenuddannelsen, både hvad angår deltagerantallet, udgifterne og uddannel­sestyperne.
One of these specific or fixed points in time is the star ting point of a cohort as it makes the transition from compulsory education with the number of young people in this cohort waiting for further educational measures.
Ud over mangelen på oplysninger støder man faktisk også på vanskeligheden med på landsplan at få samlet de forskellige fo­religgende oplysninger, som ligger i for­skellige ministerier, hos arbejdsmarke­dets parter og i den lokale administration.
But in so doing we should bear in mind a fun damental objective of all general education and vocational training measures aimed at young people, whether they are defined as initial training or continuing education, namely, that young people should enter employment by the age of 25 at the latest.
Og det drejer sig ikke kun om at få dem samlet sammen, men også om at gøre dem indbyrdes kompatible.
A further requirement is that the young people concerned should not just take on any employment, but rather a job which is appropriate in form or content to their qualifications.
Andet punkt er nærmest en generel vur­dering: Jeg vil tro, at man, hvis vi skal komme videre med fremstillingen af ud­dannelsesstrømmene på grundlag af sam­menligning af aldersårgangene, bør prø­ve på i videst muligt omfang at supplere de statistiske oplysninger, der jo ikke mål­rettet er indsamlet til et bestemt formål, og derfor også kun foreligger som brud­stykker, med beregninger.
What should not be overlooked, on the other hand, are a number of schemes designed to ensure the transition from school to work, some of which are more specifically designed to give young people a vocational qualification.
Endvidere an­ser jeg det også for vigtigt, at enkelte lan­de, som vil arbejde med modellen, foreta­ger dristige skøn.
Alto gether, some 600 000 young people (in addition to the apprentices) are currently involved in these schemes.
For jeg nærer håb om. at dersom skøn i modellen er relevante for et lands fremstilling af sin uddannel­sespolitik, så vil også andre instanser i landet bestræbe sig på at erstatte disse skøn med beregninger, ja endog med sta­tistikker, så måske kan ønsket om data — og det har der da også vist sig tegn på un­der drøftelserne hos Eurostat — der er motiveret af uddannelsespolitikernes be­hov for informationer om uddannelser­ne, eventuelt også virke befordrende på det, som uddannelsesstatistikerne eller statistikerne rent generelt stiller til ud­dannelsesplanlæggernes og forskernes rådighed i form af data.
As a basis for statements on the origin and distribution of the funds used in vocational training and the areas affected, Diagram III summarizes all the main movements of people in one year of higher secondary education.
Det tror jeg vil være yderst positivt.
Hilary Steedman:
Problemerne vokser, når man vil foreta­ge internationale sammenligninger.
These, then, would be the only fixed points in time.