natgillin/translations-raw huggingface dataset:
Det store spørgsmål i for bindelse med arbejderkvalifikationen i fremtiden er netop opretholdelsen af dette element, hvis genfrembringeise nu står i fare for at udryddes af edb-mediatisering.
The skilled shopfloor worker has always seen himself as different from the craftsman who produces things with his hands: he has always had a very technical vision of the processes in which he is involved, which he manages, dominates and controls. trols.
Det er det, man ret midlertidigt prøver på at definere ved sidestilling af kundskabsog erfaringsbaseret kunnen.
CEDEFOP: Even so, the sum of knowledge needed to become a skilled worker today is probably far closer to what, 50 years ago, used to be the domain of the technician.
I øvrigt vil man sikkert bestræbe sig på at omlægge arbejdernes erhvervsuddannelser i forhold til almenuddannelsen og at indføre differentieringer inden for de en kelte erhvervsuddannelser.
There will no doubt also be an attempt to rethink the relationship between workforce training and general education, and to differentiate within the various strands of skill training.
Hidtil har man f.eks. altid talt om metalfagene og elektrikerne som en helhed.
Up to now, for example, we have always lumped the metallurgical and electrical trades together.
Nu er der ved at opstå en klar adskillelse: Uddannelserne til elektriker og elektroniker føjer sig fint til en mellemlang skolegang af realskoletypen; de fleste lærlinge inden for elektrofagene har allerede en sådan mellemlang skole uddannelse.
Today, a clearcut difference is beginning to emerge: train ing courses for the electrical and electronic trades are being preceded by a"Realschule" type of education, and most young apprentices for skilled trades in the electrical industry have already completed their in termediate-level schooling.
Noget sådant gælder derimod ikke for metalfagene, for de elever, der har gået i skole en halv snes år, vælger ikke længere de "ikke så fine" metalfag, som ikke anses for at være tilstrækkeligt "intellektuelle" eller"videnskabelige".
This is not the case with the metallurgical trades. Young people who have gone through intermediate-level schooling, i.e. 10 years' school, no longer want to go into metallurgical trades, which are seen as "low status", "not intellectually demanding", "not scientific enough".
Og skulle de endelig gøre det, er det kun for efter afsluttet uddannelse at påbegynde en in
In other words, they are using ap prenticeship as an intermediate stage in a longer programme of training.
B. Lutz: Det tror jeg ikke. I sidste ende slår de faglærte erhvervs kulturelle kontinuitet mig altid.
This kind of overall vision has given him a great ability to arrive at highly reliable conclusions very quickly in the light of disparate, inadequate or incomplete data.
Man må indrømme, at arbejderens professionalisme i langt højere grad end tidligere har et rationelt indhold, men af en fra ingeniører og videnskabsmænds analytiske logik forsk
This rationality, this special approach, has been an integral part of the worker's culture, but it is growing in importance as mechanization and automation do away with the need for the direct handling of
Arbejderkvalifikationens hårde kerne er den erfaringsbaserede kunnen, der adskiller sig fra anvendelse af de videnskabelige kundskaber, som man kan erhverve på en skole.
B. Lutz: There has certainly been a proc ess of change in Germany, a slow evolution which has been speeded up recently with the reform of the metallurgical and electrical trades.
De rører ved maskinen, lytter til den, har en hel masse følere til virkeliggørelse af denne vision.
It is clear that the knowledge and expertise content of workers'
Vigtigt er det, at den faglærte arbejders kompetence, der mere end nogen sinde er blevet den centrale komponent, ikke kan erhverves på en skole.
The question is whether industry will man age to attract young people with a higher level of school education not only into training programmes but also into careers
CEDEFOP sig og hierarkisk strukturering, der er helt forskellig fra den hidtil kendte.
CEDEFOP it was more successful in attracting the today, but every year they are one year "brightest sons of the people".
løber en alvorlig risiko, hvis deres professionelle grundlag - der er en tradition i Tyskland - skulle gå hen og forsvinde, fordi udviklingen går i retning af industri elt arbejdes "videnskabeliggørelse".
In France, it older and in 25 years they will probably was the army, the civil service and teach-have left active employment. You need to i ng that exercised the greater attraction.
CEDEFOP: Summen af den kunnen, som en faglært arbejder i dag skal være i besid arbejder i sin tid betød for "de bedste børn delse af, svarer vel nærmest til det, derfor affolket".
As concern yourselves today about a new training has increased, but that there has been no basic change in the very structure of this skill.
Når arbejdersønnen - hvis fader halvtreds år siden varteknikerniveau.
Otherwise, workers would be "semi-engineers".
Hvis det er tilfældet, tager uddannelserne da hensyn til denne udvikling?
The essential component of workers' training in Germany is in fact training in how to accumulate knowledge through experience, and this calls for teaching methods that differ fundamentally from those used at school.
Min store bekymring er, at man for at bevæge sig i den retning må arbejde med en tidshorisont på mindst en generation, dvs. som går langt ud over de perspektiver, som industrifolk og "politikere" er vant til at arbejde med. Når man i dag taler med tyske industrifolk, kan man høre dem sige, at "faglærte, det har man".
a result, the recruitment of primary teach ers in France - which was both very elitist and very democratic - was directed at the same "target group" as was the recruit ment of skilled workers in Germany, with a view to producing master craftsmen, foremen, head foremen, technicians and even engineers.
Når man så svarer: "Ja, det passer, fordi man midt i halvfjerdserne traf en politisk beslutning, der skaffede faglærte næsten til overflod.
intake, because the way things happened in the past will not happen again, the 'pipelines' are empty.
Men ved nøjere eftersyn er det sidste gene ration.
Just look at your apprenticeship centres."
De er unge nu, men de bliver ældre år for år, og om femogtyve år er de borte.
To which they reply, "Yes, you're right, the pipeline is empty, but in 25 years' time, the Japanese etc. etc., and in any case, I'll no longer be working."
Det er nu, man skal tænke på deres afløsere, for de bliver ikke som dem man kendte fra tidligere, beholdningen er op brugt.
Therein lies the real problem: as far as industrial skills are concerned, we are in an impasse.
Se blot efter på fagskolerne." Så svarer de: "Ja, De har ret, beholdningerne er opbrugt, men om femogtyve år vil japanerne osv. osv....; og for øvrigt til den tid vil jeg heller ikke være aktiv mere."
CEDEFOP: How do you currently see the question of the governabil ity of education and training systems?
B. Lutz: I Tyskland er der givetvis sket en ændring, en langsom udvikling, der i for bindelse med metal- og elektrikerfagenes reform er gået hurtigere i den senere tid.
At school, the main aim is to make pupils assimilate knowledge and, ultimately, it is the teacher who carries the responsibility for success.
Det er klart, at uddannelsesindholdet er øget, men selve kvalifikationsstrukturen er ikke ændret grundlæggende.
And yet one of the strengths of the apprenticeship system in Germany, one of the reasons why it has such a low failure rate (compared with the very high failure rate in similar school-based train ing programmes in other countries), is that right from the start apprenticeship has a kind of in-built conditioning, the responsibility for success being placed firmly on the trainee.
Ellers ville arbejderne jo bare være en slags halve ingeniører.
From the word go, trainees learn that they must learn.
Det er det, der er det egentlige problem: Hvad industrikvalifikationen angår, befinder vi os i en blindgyde.
No one tells them in so many words, but the whole cl¡mate of the apprenticeship centre brings it home to them that their success depends on them.
stammede fra landet og var arbejdsmand eller specialarbejder på en stor virksomhed - havde ambition, så var den største lykke, der kunne overgå ham, at blive lærling på den virksomhed, hvor faderen arbejdede, så han kunne blive faglært.
Today we have created far better structures of social equality and equality of opportunity superior than those of the 19th century, but the key question for the future of European industry is whether we will be able to recreate the training schemes and vocational careers equivalent to what we had in the past.
En af forklaringerne på tysk industris relative succes i forhold til fransk industri, som havde bedre betingelser fra begyndelsen, er, at den i langt højere grad har haft held til at tiltrække "folkets bedste sønner".
It may be that a university education will be needed, but I would not rule out a new dual system which com bines part of a worker's training and part of an engineer's training to achieve some thing new, a kind of "industrial elite", perhaps less numerous than in the past but whose role in the economy would be crucial to economic wellbeing, and with com pletely different promotion and careerpathways.
I Frankrig var det snarere hæren, offentlig ansættelse og gerningen som folkeskolelærer, der øvede størst tiltrækning.
B. Lutz: Therein lies a major problem, if one accepts that the education and training system is not merely a sub-contracting supplier to the economy.
Derfor appellerede lærergerningen i Frankrig, som både er meget elitistisk og demokratisk, til den samme slags mennesker, som i Tysk land følte sig tiltrukket af uddannelsen til faglærte arbejdere, så de kunne blive mestre, formænd, teknikere, ja endog in geniører.
The highly reassuring vision of the economy held by educators, which led them to say "we are sub contractors, where the demand leads we must follow, and our responsibility is to keep abreast of current requirements" is no longer tenable, not only because it is difficult to grasp what these "current require ments" are, but also because this is a narrow vision of the true role of education and training.
CEDEFOP: Hvordan ser Depå de nuværende muligheder for at styre undervisnings- og uddannelsessystemerne ?
Faced with competition and the lure of the traditional secondary school/ university training route, apprenticeship is no longer so attractive.
I skolen skal eleverne stort set tilegne sig kundskaber, og læreren har ansvaret for resultatet.
The social division of labour between the engineer and the skilled worker can no longer be justified.
Lærlingene bliver hurtigt klar over, at det gælder om at lære noget.
It was justified in a class-based society, but happily this di vide has largely disappeared.
Der er ingen, der siger det, men klimaet på lærestedet gør dem klart, at det er op til dem at opnå et godt resultat.
There will have to be a new approach to the structuring of industrial trades and the division of labour, where structuring will undoubtedly be both horizontal and vertical, vocational and hierarchical, and very different from what has existed until now.
Under visemes meget beroligende opfattelse af erhvervslivet, som foranledigede dem til at sige: "Vi er underleverandører og bør nøje følge behovenes udvikling og holde os tæt på de reelle behov", er ikke længere holdbar, ikke blot fordi man har svært ved at fornemme de "reelle behov", men især fordi det er et synspunkt, der reducerer undervisningen og uddannelsens virkelige rolle.
Nowadays, we know (and CEDEFOP has done much to publicize the discoveries) that the education and training system has a very constructive input to the structure of employment, and that the needs of the economy reflect not only internal proc esses of growth, mechanization, automation, etc., but also the existing labour supply and former manpower skill structures.
I dag har vi opnået en samfundsmæssig lighed og en chancelighed, der ligger langt højere end i attenhundredtallet.
The main question is whether Germany and the other industrialized countries will, in a completely different social context, succeed in recreating the conditions for learning a trade and for the gradual acquisition of job skills, on a par with what used to be the industrial training of workers for the "brightest children of the people".
Men det afgørende spørgsmål for europæisk industris fremtid er at finde ud af, om vi bliver i stand til at genoprette uddannelses strukturer og erhvervsfaglige løbebaner svarende til dem, vi havde tidligere.
When the son of an agricultural worker, a la bourer or a semi-skilled worker in a large firm had ambition, his best chance was to join the apprenticeship centre in his father's place of employment in order to become a skilled worker.
Det er muligt, at man bliver nødt til at gå vejen over en højere læreanstalt, og jeg udelukker ikke et nyt dualt system, der kombinerer en del af arbejderuddannelsen ogen del af ingeniøruddannelsen for at komme frem til noget nyt, en slags "industriel elite", som sikkert ikke bliver så talrig som tidligere, men hvis økonomiske rolle i forbindelse med helt andre forfremmelses- og karrieremuligheder bliver afgørende for erhvervslivets velfærd.
And one of the reasons for the relative success of German industry compared with French industry, which started off in a better position, is that
Den sociale arbejdsdeling mellem ingeniøren og den faglærte er ikke mere berettiget på samme måde.
My main concern is that, in order to move ahead in this direction, a timescale vision spanning at least one generation will be required.
Den var berettiget i klassesamfundet; men heldigvis er dette skel stort set forsvundet.
In other words, we must look much farther than the perspectives and horizons to which industrialists and the body politic have been accustomed.
Industrifagenes strukturering og arbejdsdelingen bør tages op til fornyet overvejelse sandsynligvis ud fra en horisontal og vertikal erhvervsmæs
When you talk to German industrialists today, they explain that they have "plenty of skilled workers".
I dag er det centrale problem, at både de sociale forhold, der muliggør "konditioneringen", ansvarsoverdragelsen til lærlingen, og de sociale forhold, der tvinger til indsamling af erfaringsmæssig kunnen, er ved at forsvinde og herunder risikerer at drage nogle af lærlingeuddannelsen og arbejderkompetencens vigtige bestanddele med sig.
At the same time, there is an interaction in another direction, because the behaviour of pupils and their families, the training paths they choose and those they reject, reflect a perception of the structure of jobs and the opportunities created by the possession of a diploma.
I forhold til konkurrencen fra gymnasium og universitet øver lærlinge uddannelsen ikke længere nogen synderlig tiltrækning.
Parents and pupils, albeit belatedly and with some uncertainty due to the lack ofinformation, react ration ally to the opportunities for making use of their training in the job hierarchy. If there
CEDEFOP som erhvervsuddannelsernes dynamik dramatisk. matisk.
CEDEFOP a real need for forecasting from political leaders, the political apparatus or the cap tains of industry, the research would have the resources it needs.
Når alt kommer til alt, tror jeg faktisk, at de grundlæggende problemer i Tyskland og Frankrig er de samme.
are marked differences in pay scales based on the duration of school education, it is clear that everyone will try to have as much schooling as possible. That is only logical.
CEDEFOP: Det er kendt, at erhven > suddannelsesplanlæggerne støder på van skeligheder, fordi de mangler pcilidelige oplysninger. Hvordan kan dette problem løses?
But the resources are not there, because the decision-makers are fobbed off with reassuring but dubious "gimmicks".
Med en vis forsinkelse og nogen uklarhed som følge af utilstrækkelige oplysninger reagerer forældre og elever rationelt på de muligheder for at udnytte den erhvervede uddannelse, som de finder i beskæftigelses strukturen.
You can, then, legitimately speak of a twoway reaction.
Og hvis lønnen er stærkt differentieret efter skolegangens varighed, si ger det sig selv, at alle prøver på at blive i skolen så længe som muligt.
The education and training system, through the structure of the skills and aspirations of the young people whom it places on the job market, is forcing employers to change.
Det er indlysende. sende.
In other words, educational policy is, with some delay, shaping the structure of jobs.
B. Lutz: Jeg tror faktisk, at vi i øjeblikket savner grundlæggende data til at kunne planlægge ordentligt; men endnu mere dramatisk er det, at ingen beder os derom.
But the job structure creates a social demand for education which is not something abstract (it is a reflection of the structures of employment).
Hvis der var efterspørgsel enten fra politisk hold eller fra erhvervslivets side, ville forskningen få midler. Følgelig har forsk ningen ingen penge, fordi beslutningstagerne slår sig til tåls med beroligende nødløsninger af tvivlsom værdi.
Yet this interaction takes place via lengthy mechanisms; reactions are not instantaneous but delayed, though by how much is not very clear, since time is a difficult factor to pin down in economic and social sciences.
Man må ikke glemme, at Frankrig ved anden verdens krigs slutning havde et udmærket erhvervs uddannelsessystem og var ved at indføre et system, som (selv om det ikke var særligt udbredt) i mange henseender var mere moderne og mere effektivt end det daværende tyske system.
You have to remember that, at the end of the war, France had a very good system of vocational training, and was setting up a system which, in many ways, was much more modern and effective than the German system at the time (even though its intake capacity was limited).
Det der skete i Frankrig i halvtredserne - det pludselige for fald af et helt, meget nyskabende erhvervsuddannelsessystem med folk, der i efterkrigsårene frivilligt var gået ind i erhvervsuddannelserne - varsler ret tydeligt det, der viser sig tegn på i Tyskland.
So what happened in France in the 1950s - the sudden decline of an entire system of highly innovative vocational training, with people voluntarily opting for vocational training in the post-war years - largely foreshadowed what is now happening in Germany.
Det vil være forkert letsindigt at kritisere de forsøg, der i øjeblikket gøres i Frankrig på at hænge erhvervsundervisningen på undervisningssystemet, som er et system præget af almenundervisningens hierarki.
And it would be wrong to criticize the attempts now being made in France to regraft the teaching of vocational skills onto its education system, dominated as it is by the teaching of general academic subjects.
F.eks. mener jeg, at Tyskland har al interesse i nøje at betragte, hvad der i øjeblikket sker i Frankrig i forbindele med BTS.
I think it would be in Germany's interests to look very closely at what is now happening in France with the Brevet technique supérieur (technical diploma).
Det burde virkelig tjene som oplysning for Tyskland.
That really should be a lesson for Germany. many.
Politikerne tænker i fireårs baner, og industrien er meget stolt over at kunne tænke i perioder af otte til tolv års varighed, hvilket svarer til afskrivningstiden for større investeringer.
Political leaders think in terms of four years, and the industrial world is proud of the fact that it works on the basis of capital investment payback periods of eight to twelve years.
I alle tilfælde er det, der går ud over tolv år, langt ude i fremtiden som f.eks. den famøse "fremtidsfabrik".
Anything beyond twelve years is way into the future, like the famous "factory of the future".
Men halvdelen af fremtidsfabrikkens ansatte findes allerede nu, og den anden halvdel skal ansættes, uddannes, indarbejdes og socialiseres af dem, der allerede er der.
And yet half the people who will man that factory of the future are already in place today and the other 50% will be recruited, trained, in stalled and socialized by those already there.
Hvis man tænker på ansatte, beskæftigelsestrukturerog arbejdskraftens sociale strukturer, så er tyve år den nærmeste fremtid og ikke noget fjernt, som man ikke behøver at beskæftige sig synderligt med.
If one thinks in terms of manpower numbers, job structures and social man power structures, then 20 years is just around the corner, not some distant future which should not unduly concern us.
Men beskæftigelsesstrukturen skaber den sociale undervisningsefterspørgsel, som ikke er noget abstrakt (men en afspejling af beskæftigelsesstrukturerne).
So it is this inability to take the longerterm view that is the key factor in the nongovemability of the systems, and I foresee dramatic upheavals which may cost us very dear.
Faktisk er tingene yderst komplicerede: Hvordan skal man forlige et åbent undervisningssystem, som alligevel for bliver stærkt bestemmende for de sociale positioner, med tilegnelse af erhvervsfaglig kompetence?
In practice, things are very complicated: how do you reconcile an open-ended teach ing system, designed to appeal to the entire social spectrum, with the acquisition of vocational expertise?
Det er et spørgsmål, som ingen i øjeblikket kan besvare definitivt.
This is a question to which nobody can give a definitive an swer.
Vi indtræder nu i en meget famlende fase, hvori andres fiaskoer endog kan blive til stor fordel for alle.
The timescales involved will probably be longer than a generation, i.e. over 25 or 30 years.
Det er altså den manglende evne til at betragte fjernere horisonter, der udgør den essentielle faktor for systemernes ustyrlighed, og jeg forudser dramatiske ud skridninger, som kan komme til at koste dyrt.
We are now moving very much into a period of trial and error, where even the setbacks of others may be extremely salutary for everyone.
Men allerede nu fungerer mekanismerne, kræfterne virker lang sigtet, og der er i øjeblikket ingen med ansvar for undervisning og erhvervsud
Are the problems you are now encountering in Germany completely different from those facing France ?
CEDEFOP: Hvad kan EF gøre?
CEDEFOP: What can Europe do?
dannelse, hverken fra erhvervslivets side CEDEFOP: Det arbejde, som De har ud (end ikke fremsynede industrifolk) eller ført i en række lande, især i Frankrig, giver B. Lutz: EF kan navnlig forbedre mulig fra politisk hold, der er i stand til at tænke og at handle i sådanne tidsperspektiver. Der foreligger altså et dramatisk styringsproblem.
In what I perceive to be a break with the past, where processes that have functioned for a century no longer do so, a number of mechanisms for the distribution and allocation of manpower will no longer reflect real life.
Dem sikkert mulighed for at kaste et sammenlignende blik på en række spørgsmål. De problemer.
B. Lutz: Above all, Europe can expand its capability for comparative analysis of these experiences, their success and failure.
hederne for at foretage sammenlignende analyser af disse forsøg, af både de gode og de dårlige resultater. EF bør gå ind for forskelligartetheden og navnlig modvirke den særdeles stærke trang til at søge en mirakelløsning, som alle skal påtvinges.
B. Lutz: Ever since the first comparative studies of France and Germany I have always taken the view that the best and the most productive working assumption was to say that France was one generation ahead of Germany, that the two were basically following the same path albeit with some differences.
I en efter min opfattelse historisk brydningstid, hvor processer, der har virket i et århundrede, ikke længere duer, mister visse arbejdskraftfordelings- og -tildelings-mekanismer enhver forbindelse med virkeligheden.
CEDEFOP: We are all aware of the difficulties facing those responsible for plan ning education and training, given the lack of reliable data. How can this problem be solved?
Da bliver problemet med den manglende styring, den manglende beherskelse af såvel beskæftigelsesstrukturens
All things considered, the fundamental problems are the same in France as in Germany.